I worry that this will DISINCENTIVIZE janitors. People who would do
it for the love of cleaning up a mess, will now see it as a low-paying
job, or won't work without funds.
I think the strongest drivers of work are identity (intrinsic) and
recognition (extrinsic) - "I am a Kubernetes Janitor" and getting your
name in a file somewhere. We get contributors by playing those things
up. By having a web page for janitors, and a mailing list, and a
logo, and stickers, and tshirts, and by ackowledging the janitors
project.
That takes effort I don't have bandwidth for right now :(
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:52 PM, Alexis Richardson <alexis@weave.works> wrote:
> Tim
>
> Could solving this issue also lead to movement on the "janitors" type
> initiatives that Lucas says have worked for Linux?
>
> In general, how can areas that need love/work get advertised/resourced while
> staying within the norms of the community?
>
> Alexis
>
>
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2017, 04:09 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes developer/contributor
> discussion, <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm not against trying it, I just have my own predictions. I agree
>> with Aronchick - the biggest issue we have is not that we need more
>> people - we need better (more actionable) bugs, we need onramps, we
>> guidance and reviews, and we need to make contributing hurt less
>> (rebases, verify and update scripts, staging, etc).
>>
>> For people to do THAT work, I'd pay out of my own pocket.
>>
>> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, 'David Aronchick' via Kubernetes
>> developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Ok - broadly, I love the experiment, and am supportive of trying it out.
>> >
>> > That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence that we lack people, or the
>> > people lack time/motivation, to contribute. Money/extrinsic rewards
>> > feels
>> > like it's trying to solve the wrong problem. From everyone I've talked
>> > to,
>> > it's far far far more about streamlining the contributions that people
>> > already would like to make - and, interestingly, we (the project) are
>> > more
>> > than ready/willing/able to pay actual $ for streamlining this process in
>> > a
>> > substantive way - to a charity or no.
>> >
>> > Speaking of which - where's the latest priority ordered backlog of work
>> > to
>> > do to make contributing less painful?
>> >
>> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:13 AM, <lu...@luxaslabs.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> So what I was basically trying to say Daniel and Tim is that I believe
>> >> this matter is much more complex than a binary good/bad switch.
>> >>
>> >> > Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
>> >> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>> >> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
>> >> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>> >> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs a
>> >> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
>> >> initial work items.
>> >>
>> >> I really like this idea as well. But I think it's a compliment to
>> >> what's
>> >> proposed above, not a replacement.
>> >> This also goes for K8sPort (compliment to these community efforts).
>> >> It's
>> >> pretty good but hasn't gained traction at all really.
>> >>
>> >> K8sPort also offers a charity option. I just donated $200 to victims of
>> >> the Haiti Earthquake via K8sPort: https://campaign.newstorycharity.org/
>> >> This all just thanks to the Issues and Pull Requests I've created, SO
>> >> questions I've answered and so on.
>> >>
>> >> I see a huge potential here to square the good we're doing, both
>> >> donating
>> >> to OSS and charities.
>> >>
>> >> As pointed out above, we can't control whether 21 becomes a thing or
>> >> not,
>> >> nor if the Kubernetes 21 list will be used or not.
>> >> What we can do is to provide good examples to the community and try to
>> >> find the forums/tools/activities that work well for us to engage the
>> >> community even more and keep the project healthy.
>> >>
>> >> My and Joseph's intention with this thread was to investigate how we
>> >> can
>> >> possibly use this tool in the best possible way for the community (a
>> >> list
>> >> would be created in any case sooner or later).
>> >>
>> >> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 18:07:41 UTC+3 skrev lu...@luxaslabs.com:
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel
>> >>>
>> >>> As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the
>> >>> greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of words:
>> >>>
>> >>> First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether person
>> >>> A
>> >>> wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever
>> >>> medium
>> >>> (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...).
>> >>> Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers or
>> >>> steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of that
>> >>> nor
>> >>> the people in it or the people using it.
>> >>>
>> >>> Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring
>> >>> tasks"
>> >>> as well as features are monetarily paid by a company.
>> >>> There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't
>> >>> pretend
>> >>> there isn't any.
>> >>>
>> >>> I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some
>> >>> potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than
>> >>> drawbacks
>> >>> with the proposal.
>> >>>
>> >>> Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on something
>> >>> else
>> >>> generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible.
>> >>>
>> >>> - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often have
>> >>> an
>> >>> other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in high
>> >>> school.
>> >>> People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the
>> >>> list
>> >>> to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list. That's
>> >>> one
>> >>> use-case for the list.
>> >>>
>> >>> It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting I
>> >>> can
>> >>> work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting right
>> >>> now
>> >>> when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby)
>> >>> I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated than
>> >>> ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to do
>> >>> otherwise.
>> >>>
>> >>> Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good
>> >>>
>> >>> - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and marketplace
>> >>> aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can
>> >>> choose to
>> >>> donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of your
>> >>> choice, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
>> >>> Folding At Home, Code To Inspire.
>> >>> - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to
>> >>> escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while
>> >>> donating
>> >>> those $5 or so dollars to help Afghan women learn to code is truly
>> >>> motivational.
>> >>>
>> >>> Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to --
>> >>> accepting
>> >>> the extrinsic motivation) maybe isn't the person that would work for
>> >>> the
>> >>> greater good in the first place. I think the person that contributes
>> >>> to K8s
>> >>> for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to boost the intrinsic
>> >>> motivation by using the charity option.
>> >>>
>> >>> Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so far
>> >>> but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars
>> >>>
>> >>> This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation related
>> >>> to
>> >>> OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before.
>> >>> Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him
>> >>> take
>> >>> those bucks, he probably needs them in that case.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Further ideas:
>> >>>
>> >>> I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor
>> >>> HTTP
>> >>> service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would basically
>> >>> be a
>> >>> way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks on
>> >>> 21 to
>> >>> different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and the
>> >>> CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your name
>> >>> to a
>> >>> CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate money
>> >>> for.
>> >>>
>> >>> Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it via
>> >>> the
>> >>> 21 web interface)
>> >>>
>> >>> 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship"
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total
>> >>> amount
>> >>> you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF
>> >>> diversity scholarship recipients!
>> >>> And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF
>> >>> instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically...
>> >>>
>> >>> Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share later
>> >>> ;)
>> >>>
>> >>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks for your feedback, Daniel.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major
>> >>>> flaws
>> >>>> when taken into current context:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The world was extremely different when this study was conducted. The
>> >>>> sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the
>> >>>> Internet
>> >>>> globally. Etcetera.
>> >>>> RE: "If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to
>> >>>> compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall engagement
>> >>>> can
>> >>>> decline": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward
>> >>>> amount.
>> >>>> With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing -- i.e
>> >>>> K8s
>> >>>> experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they respond
>> >>>> to K8s
>> >>>> user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward of $5 set for
>> >>>> each
>> >>>> reply. That can easily be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond. Balaji
>> >>>> Srinivasan shared with me earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely sees
>> >>>> users
>> >>>> paying $10 for answers from Ethereum experts.
>> >>>> (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the net
>> >>>> result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim
>> >>>> alluded, I
>> >>>> think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics
>> >>>> really
>> >>>> improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases like
>> >>>> the
>> >>>> ones that Dan Ariely identifies, but these need to be kept in
>> >>>> perspective
>> >>>> against the gigantic examples of (say) communist vs capitalist China,
>> >>>> or
>> >>>> communist vs capitalist Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are
>> >>>> replacing
>> >>>> a breadline with a market.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> HTH!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I agree w/ Tim.
>> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> CIL
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an
>> >>>>>>> > experiment is
>> >>>>>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this
>> >>>>>>> > area.
>> >>>>>>> > Why not
>> >>>>>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone
>> >>>>>>> ("help
>> >>>>>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than combined
>> >>>>>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100
>> >>>>>>> bucks
>> >>>>>>> for your effort").
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a
>> >>>>>> charity:
>> >>>>>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
>> >>>>>> Folding At
>> >>>>>> Home, Code To Inspire.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> > Would love more feedback.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
>> >>>>>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>> >>>>>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel
>> >>>>>>> to
>> >>>>>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>> >>>>>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It
>> >>>>>>> needs
>> >>>>>>> a
>> >>>>>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
>> >>>>>>> initial work items.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think what
>> >>>>>> we
>> >>>>>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin <tho...@google.com>
>> >>>>>>> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring the
>> >>>>>>> >> effects
>> >>>>>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well understood
>> >>>>>>> >> that
>> >>>>>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic
>> >>>>>>> >> motivators)
>> >>>>>>> >> are
>> >>>>>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators).
>> >>>>>>> >> The
>> >>>>>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic
>> >>>>>>> >> motivator
>> >>>>>>> >> to a
>> >>>>>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED the
>> >>>>>>> >> net
>> >>>>>>> >> motivation.
>> >>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community
>> >>>>>>> >> doesn't
>> >>>>>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job.
>> >>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> Tim
>> >>>>>>> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström
>> >>>>>>> >> <lu...@luxaslabs.com>
>> >>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers...
>> >>>>>>> >> >
>> >>>>>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this over
>> >>>>>>> >> >> the last
>> >>>>>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome!
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >> Doc:
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >>>>>>> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6
>> >>>>>>> >> >
>> >>>>>>> >> > --
>> >>>>>>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>> >>>>>>> >> > Google
>> >>>>>>> >> > Groups
>> >>>>>>> >> > "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group.
>> >>>>>>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>> >>>>>>> >> > it, send
>> >>>>>>> >> > an
>> >>>>>>> >> > email to kubernetes-use...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>>>> >> > To post to this group, send email to
>> >>>>>>> >> > kubernet...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>>>> >> > Visit this group at
>> >>>>>>> >> > https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> >>>>>>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>> >
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> --
>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >>>>>> Groups "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> >>>>>> send
>> >>>>>> an email to kubernetes-use...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to kubernet...@googlegroups.com.
>> >>>>>> Visit this group at
>> >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> >> an
>> >> email to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
>> >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "Kubernetes developer/contributor discussion" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an
>> > email to kubernetes-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/kubernetes-dev/CADSfKXnnoxQ1Xw2YGcoZciF%3DasFfSv4aEs1yU%2BLo6706ZAbhfw%40mail.gmail.com.
>> >
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Kubernetes developer/contributor discussion" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to kubernetes-dev+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/kubernetes-dev/CAO_Rewa9r5LdgWFtibb-fABVKdRYjgTm%2BhfZC3w4mHHWg6OBKQ%40mail.gmail.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Kubernetes user discussion and Q&A" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to kubernetes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to kubernetes-users@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/kubernetes-users.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
