Ahh, yeah, we need so surge effort to bootstrap
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Alexis Richardson <alexis@weave.works> wrote:
> To be clear: I agree with you about funds and incentives.
>
> I was referring to your on ramps issue (set out below in your email).
>
> Would some kind of "all hands work fest" be a way to create the on ramps?
> It seems like there is a huge barrier to progress otherwise. If everyone*
> could down tools for a day and just work on this, maybe the initial
> resources could be created, eg task lists, website, ..
>
> *Everyone as in whoever has been and still wishes to contribute
>
> Sorry if this is a lunatic thought.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 30 May 2017, 23:02 Tim Hockin, <thoc...@google.com> wrote:
>>
>> I worry that this will DISINCENTIVIZE janitors. People who would do
>> it for the love of cleaning up a mess, will now see it as a low-paying
>> job, or won't work without funds.
>>
>> I think the strongest drivers of work are identity (intrinsic) and
>> recognition (extrinsic) - "I am a Kubernetes Janitor" and getting your
>> name in a file somewhere. We get contributors by playing those things
>> up. By having a web page for janitors, and a mailing list, and a
>> logo, and stickers, and tshirts, and by ackowledging the janitors
>> project.
>>
>> That takes effort I don't have bandwidth for right now :(
>>
>> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 11:52 PM, Alexis Richardson <alexis@weave.works>
>> wrote:
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > Could solving this issue also lead to movement on the "janitors" type
>> > initiatives that Lucas says have worked for Linux?
>> >
>> > In general, how can areas that need love/work get advertised/resourced
>> > while
>> > staying within the norms of the community?
>> >
>> > Alexis
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, 30 May 2017, 04:09 'Tim Hockin' via Kubernetes
>> > developer/contributor
>> > discussion, <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I'm not against trying it, I just have my own predictions. I agree
>> >> with Aronchick - the biggest issue we have is not that we need more
>> >> people - we need better (more actionable) bugs, we need onramps, we
>> >> guidance and reviews, and we need to make contributing hurt less
>> >> (rebases, verify and update scripts, staging, etc).
>> >>
>> >> For people to do THAT work, I'd pay out of my own pocket.
>> >>
>> >> On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:23 AM, 'David Aronchick' via Kubernetes
>> >> developer/contributor discussion <kubernetes-...@googlegroups.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Ok - broadly, I love the experiment, and am supportive of trying it
>> >> > out.
>> >> >
>> >> > That said, I'm not sure there's any evidence that we lack people, or
>> >> > the
>> >> > people lack time/motivation, to contribute. Money/extrinsic rewards
>> >> > feels
>> >> > like it's trying to solve the wrong problem. From everyone I've
>> >> > talked
>> >> > to,
>> >> > it's far far far more about streamlining the contributions that
>> >> > people
>> >> > already would like to make - and, interestingly, we (the project) are
>> >> > more
>> >> > than ready/willing/able to pay actual $ for streamlining this process
>> >> > in
>> >> > a
>> >> > substantive way - to a charity or no.
>> >> >
>> >> > Speaking of which - where's the latest priority ordered backlog of
>> >> > work
>> >> > to
>> >> > do to make contributing less painful?
>> >> >
>> >> > On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 9:13 AM, <lu...@luxaslabs.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So what I was basically trying to say Daniel and Tim is that I
>> >> >> believe
>> >> >> this matter is much more complex than a binary good/bad switch.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a kube
>> >> >> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>> >> >> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole kernel to
>> >> >> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>> >> >> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It needs
>> >> >> a
>> >> >> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort cataloging
>> >> >> initial work items.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I really like this idea as well. But I think it's a compliment to
>> >> >> what's
>> >> >> proposed above, not a replacement.
>> >> >> This also goes for K8sPort (compliment to these community efforts).
>> >> >> It's
>> >> >> pretty good but hasn't gained traction at all really.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> K8sPort also offers a charity option. I just donated $200 to victims
>> >> >> of
>> >> >> the Haiti Earthquake via K8sPort:
>> >> >> https://campaign.newstorycharity.org/
>> >> >> This all just thanks to the Issues and Pull Requests I've created,
>> >> >> SO
>> >> >> questions I've answered and so on.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I see a huge potential here to square the good we're doing, both
>> >> >> donating
>> >> >> to OSS and charities.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> As pointed out above, we can't control whether 21 becomes a thing or
>> >> >> not,
>> >> >> nor if the Kubernetes 21 list will be used or not.
>> >> >> What we can do is to provide good examples to the community and try
>> >> >> to
>> >> >> find the forums/tools/activities that work well for us to engage the
>> >> >> community even more and keep the project healthy.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> My and Joseph's intention with this thread was to investigate how we
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> possibly use this tool in the best possible way for the community (a
>> >> >> list
>> >> >> would be created in any case sooner or later).
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 18:07:41 UTC+3 skrev lu...@luxaslabs.com:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Thanks for the feedback Tim and Daniel
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> As a independent contributor (+more) working on Kubernetes "for the
>> >> >>> greater good" for more than two years I want to say a couple of
>> >> >>> words:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> First it should be stated that we're not in control of whether
>> >> >>> person
>> >> >>> A
>> >> >>> wants to pay person B for getting a question answered via whatever
>> >> >>> medium
>> >> >>> (be it SO, 21, Slack or email or...).
>> >> >>> Sooner or later a Kubernetes list would pop up. We (the maintainers
>> >> >>> or
>> >> >>> steering committee or any specific persons) are not in control of
>> >> >>> that
>> >> >>> nor
>> >> >>> the people in it or the people using it.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Secondly, we should recognize that most people working on "boring
>> >> >>> tasks"
>> >> >>> as well as features are monetarily paid by a company.
>> >> >>> There is _a lot_ of money in this game already, so we shouldn't
>> >> >>> pretend
>> >> >>> there isn't any.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I fully recognize the problem you're referring to and can see some
>> >> >>> potential drawbacks, but I do think there are more benefits than
>> >> >>> drawbacks
>> >> >>> with the proposal.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Scenario 1: A person that's interested in K8s but works on
>> >> >>> something
>> >> >>> else
>> >> >>> generally. Would pick up a K8s job if possible.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> - People that work on Kubernetes for the greater good most often
>> >> >>> have
>> >> >>> an
>> >> >>> other job. In my case I'm living with my parents while studing in
>> >> >>> high
>> >> >>> school.
>> >> >>> People that want to work full-time on Kubernetes could be in the
>> >> >>> list
>> >> >>> to get job offers regularily from people posting to the list.
>> >> >>> That's
>> >> >>> one
>> >> >>> use-case for the list.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> It shouldn't go unsaid that thanks to being able to do contracting
>> >> >>> I
>> >> >>> can
>> >> >>> work on K8s as my summer-time job (but I'm not doing contracting
>> >> >>> right
>> >> >>> now
>> >> >>> when dealing with these community matters, this is my hobby)
>> >> >>> I can't say my motivation has declined, rather I'm more motivated
>> >> >>> than
>> >> >>> ever to do more good to the K8s ecosystem than I would be able to
>> >> >>> do
>> >> >>> otherwise.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Scenario 2: A general contributor that works for the greater good
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> - The most interesting part here IMO is the charity and
>> >> >>> marketplace
>> >> >>> aspects though. As Joseph also pointed out earlier here, you can
>> >> >>> choose to
>> >> >>> donate all the to you transferred funds directly to a charity of
>> >> >>> your
>> >> >>> choice, currently you can choose between CoinCenter, Black Girls
>> >> >>> Code,
>> >> >>> Folding At Home, Code To Inspire.
>> >> >>> - To me, being able to help people that are using the 21 list to
>> >> >>> escalate important (support as well as non-support) issues while
>> >> >>> donating
>> >> >>> those $5 or so dollars to help Afghan women learn to code is truly
>> >> >>> motivational.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Note: The person that takes the money (which you referred to --
>> >> >>> accepting
>> >> >>> the extrinsic motivation) maybe isn't the person that would work
>> >> >>> for
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> greater good in the first place. I think the person that
>> >> >>> contributes
>> >> >>> to K8s
>> >> >>> for the intrinsic motivation is very likely to boost the intrinsic
>> >> >>> motivation by using the charity option.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Scenario 3: A person that hasn't been involved in K8s very much so
>> >> >>> far
>> >> >>> but sees his/her chance to earn some dollars
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> This person doesn't seem to recognize the intrinsic motivation
>> >> >>> related
>> >> >>> to
>> >> >>> OSS projects and didn't contribute really to K8s before.
>> >> >>> Now he/she does contribute and gets some dollars in return. Let him
>> >> >>> take
>> >> >>> those bucks, he probably needs them in that case.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Further ideas:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I've been experimenting with the tought of providing a CNCF sponsor
>> >> >>> HTTP
>> >> >>> service in the 21 marketplace (https://21.co/mkt/). It would
>> >> >>> basically
>> >> >>> be a
>> >> >>> way to donate the bitcoins you've earned from completing microtasks
>> >> >>> on
>> >> >>> 21 to
>> >> >>> different areas of CNCF. Each API call costs a little money, and
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> CNCF-backed service would just charge a dollar or two, add your
>> >> >>> name
>> >> >>> to a
>> >> >>> CNCF individual sponsors list and let you choose what to donate
>> >> >>> money
>> >> >>> for.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Imagine anyone being able to issue a command like this (or do it
>> >> >>> via
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> 21 web interface)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> 21 buy "cncf/sponsor/diversity_scholarship"
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> and the API service will put your name on a list next to the total
>> >> >>> amount
>> >> >>> you've paid (adds up on every API call). Now you've donated to CNCF
>> >> >>> diversity scholarship recipients!
>> >> >>> And as the 21 ecosystem grows, it might be possible to choose CNCF
>> >> >>> instead of the four above mentioned charities automatically...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Let me know what you think... I have even more thoughts to share
>> >> >>> later
>> >> >>> ;)
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Den söndag 28 maj 2017 kl. 06:32:04 UTC+3 skrev Joseph Jacks:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> Thanks for your feedback, Daniel.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> My take on this 1999 study you point to is that it has some major
>> >> >>>> flaws
>> >> >>>> when taken into current context:
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> The world was extremely different when this study was conducted.
>> >> >>>> The
>> >> >>>> sharing economy did not exist. There were only ~195M people on the
>> >> >>>> Internet
>> >> >>>> globally. Etcetera.
>> >> >>>> RE: "If the size of the monetary reward is not large enough to
>> >> >>>> compensate for the loss of intrinsic motivation, overall
>> >> >>>> engagement
>> >> >>>> can
>> >> >>>> decline": We can easily solve this simply by increasing the reward
>> >> >>>> amount.
>> >> >>>> With the first basic implementation of extrinsic incentivizing --
>> >> >>>> i.e
>> >> >>>> K8s
>> >> >>>> experts and/or charities get paid in BTC/fiat only when they
>> >> >>>> respond
>> >> >>>> to K8s
>> >> >>>> user questions via the 21 system -- we have a reward of $5 set for
>> >> >>>> each
>> >> >>>> reply. That can easily be adjusted up to $20 and far beyond.
>> >> >>>> Balaji
>> >> >>>> Srinivasan shared with me earlier that 21.co/ethereum routinely
>> >> >>>> sees
>> >> >>>> users
>> >> >>>> paying $10 for answers from Ethereum experts.
>> >> >>>> (Some help with framing thanks to Balaji here)... Regarding the
>> >> >>>> net
>> >> >>>> result as is implied in the 1999 study and in other areas as Tim
>> >> >>>> alluded, I
>> >> >>>> think in most areas generally the introduction of market dynamics
>> >> >>>> really
>> >> >>>> improves the overall experience. There are certainly edge cases
>> >> >>>> like
>> >> >>>> the
>> >> >>>> ones that Dan Ariely identifies, but these need to be kept in
>> >> >>>> perspective
>> >> >>>> against the gigantic examples of (say) communist vs capitalist
>> >> >>>> China,
>> >> >>>> or
>> >> >>>> communist vs capitalist Eastern Europe. Most of the time, you are
>> >> >>>> replacing
>> >> >>>> a breadline with a market.
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> HTH!
>> >> >>>>
>> >> >>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Daniel Smith <dbs...@google.com>
>> >> >>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> I agree w/ Tim.
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect#Volunteering
>> >> >>>>>
>> >> >>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Joseph Jacks <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >> >>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> CIL
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> On Saturday, May 27, 2017 at 3:45:29 PM UTC-7, Tim Hockin wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:40 PM, Joseph Jacks
>> >> >>>>>>> <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >> >>>>>>> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> > Thanks! I do hear you, Tim --- however, I find that such an
>> >> >>>>>>> > experiment is
>> >> >>>>>>> > worthy in the face of the challenges the project has in this
>> >> >>>>>>> > area.
>> >> >>>>>>> > Why not
>> >> >>>>>>> > have both extrinsic and intrinsic, then see what happens?
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> That was the point of the study. Intrinsic motivators alone
>> >> >>>>>>> ("help
>> >> >>>>>>> make the world a better place") were MORE effective than
>> >> >>>>>>> combined
>> >> >>>>>>> motivators ("help make the world a better place, and here's 100
>> >> >>>>>>> bucks
>> >> >>>>>>> for your effort").
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> 21 also allows the reward to be automatically credited to a
>> >> >>>>>> charity:
>> >> >>>>>> currently, there are four choices: CoinCenter, Black Girls Code,
>> >> >>>>>> Folding At
>> >> >>>>>> Home, Code To Inspire.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> > Would love more feedback.
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> Something I wanted to do but fell off my plate is to set up a
>> >> >>>>>>> kube
>> >> >>>>>>> "janitors" effort. This has been pretty effective in the Linux
>> >> >>>>>>> kernel, finding ways for people who didn't know the whole
>> >> >>>>>>> kernel
>> >> >>>>>>> to
>> >> >>>>>>> contribute, clean up, and earn an identity ("I'm on the kernel
>> >> >>>>>>> janitors team!"), and take a ton of tasks off the backlog. It
>> >> >>>>>>> needs
>> >> >>>>>>> a
>> >> >>>>>>> rally point, a website, a logo, and some serious effort
>> >> >>>>>>> cataloging
>> >> >>>>>>> initial work items.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>> This along with the K8sport effort share similar aims! I think
>> >> >>>>>> what
>> >> >>>>>> we
>> >> >>>>>> are envisioning here is highly complimentary.
>> >> >>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>>
>> >> >>>>>>> > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Tim Hockin
>> >> >>>>>>> > <tho...@google.com>
>> >> >>>>>>> > wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> Curiously, I was JUST listening to a radio piece exploring
>> >> >>>>>>> >> the
>> >> >>>>>>> >> effects
>> >> >>>>>>> >> of intrinsic and extrinsic motivators. It is well
>> >> >>>>>>> >> understood
>> >> >>>>>>> >> that
>> >> >>>>>>> >> "common purpose" and "for the greater good" (intrinsic
>> >> >>>>>>> >> motivators)
>> >> >>>>>>> >> are
>> >> >>>>>>> >> more effective than money and stuff (extrinsic motivators).
>> >> >>>>>>> >> The
>> >> >>>>>>> >> interesting part was that the addition of an extrinsic
>> >> >>>>>>> >> motivator
>> >> >>>>>>> >> to a
>> >> >>>>>>> >> situation which was already intrinsically motivated REDUCED
>> >> >>>>>>> >> the
>> >> >>>>>>> >> net
>> >> >>>>>>> >> motivation.
>> >> >>>>>>> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> So we should be careful that applying money to our community
>> >> >>>>>>> >> doesn't
>> >> >>>>>>> >> change it from a righteous mission into a low-paying job.
>> >> >>>>>>> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> Tim
>> >> >>>>>>> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:36 PM, Lucas Käldström
>> >> >>>>>>> >> <lu...@luxaslabs.com>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> >> > Adding kubernetes-dev and kubernetes-maintainers...
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >
>> >> >>>>>>> >> > On May 28 2017, at 12:31 am, Joseph Jacks
>> >> >>>>>>> >> > <jack...@gmail.com>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> > wrote:
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> https://twitter.com/kubernetesonarm/status/868577771953455105
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> Lucas and I got to DM'ing earlier and came up with this
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> over
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> the last
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> hour. Feedback welcome!
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> Doc:
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQDIAB0OqiSjIHI8AWMvSdceWhnz56jNpZrLs6o7NJY/edit#heading=h.en8cy6hno0c6
>> >> >>>>>>> >> >
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