At 04:20 PM 2/5/2007, Matthew Robinson wrote:
From: Chris Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The difference there is that, even in the extreme cases you
mention, the child in question still had parents. They still came
into the world through recognizable human processes, even if the
circumstances surrounding their birth weren't ideal. Kreuze, by
contrast, had no parents, no family, none of the touchstones that
make human beings human. His situation is unique, and that puts a
unique spin on his actions.
Would it matter, from the point of view of one orphaned from birth
or abandoned at birth, whether one originally had parents or not?
Yes. Even if they're orphaned they can still think of themselves as
human beings. They are victims of circumstances, yes, but they are
fundamentally still human beings. Kreuze is not.
Does the act of being conceived and born naturally really have
significance beyond what we give it in terms of being a link to
previous generations of humans, and if so, does this link overshadow
the links we make day in and day out by interacting with the other
human beings around us?
Yes, very much so. You can interact with other living beings and
become part of a community with effort, but none of that changes who
you fundamentally are, and nor does it erase your history. Kreuze is
fundamentally different from other human beings, and that has shaped
his perceptions accordingly.
No way. None of those are human, not in the least. They're very
much Invids, even if they chose to ultimately reject their
heritage. In fact, a good chunk of what makes Marlene/Ariel
compelling is the fact that she chose to make her home among
humanity even though she is most certainly not a human. But what's
important there is the element of choice -- the Invids have to
actively reject their culture in order to live among humans. But
Kreuze has no culture to reject -- he is very much a culture of
one, and that's why he's an interesting villain.
But does one have to have a culture to reject in order to embrace a culture?
No, but they do have to have a culture to recognize and appreciate
the significance of doing either. In the case of the invids, they
understood that they could give up being part of a community in order
to join another. In Kreuze's case, he has no community to give up,
and can't realistically join a community since he can't even begin to
relate to the sorts of things said community would take for granted.
He is a construct, not a human being. An invid would be more at home
among humans than he would.
Remember, Marlene originally had no clue she was an alien -- she
only found out when she saw herself bleeding green. She originally
came to see herself as human without being able to reject any
previous heritage, since she first came to consciousness as a total
blank slate. She turned BACK to the humans, in the end, of her own
volition, but she had originally considered herself "one of them"
(one of us?) without ever realizing she might have a totally different origin.
Yes, but the fact she was a blank slate meant she had to discover who
she was before she could make a choice. Once she learned all of that,
she had a choice: one culture, or another. In Kreuze's case, there is
no choice since he was never born to begin with -- he was simply
created. If a culture of AIs existed in the SEED universe he might be
able to join that, but in the absence of such a culture he's stuck.
He just doesn't have anything in common with humanity.
Here's another question: was Kreuze always aware he wasn't born
naturally, or did he originally grow up assuming he was natural-born?
That's a good question. I think he was, but I can't recall whether or
not it was ever spelled out.
If Kreuze had been created as a clone but, say, raised as Al da
Flaga's natural-born son (with or without the expulsion of Mu la
Flaga from the family), would his situation vis-a-vis humanity be different?
It might be so long as the illusion was maintained, but once it was
broken I doubt it'd make a difference.
In the latter situation Kreuze would presumably have assumed the
culture he was brought up in, with Al da Flaga as his family, and
whatever friends one normally picks up in childhood (albeit the
isolated childhood of the upper-class "son" of a spectacular snob
like Al da Flaga).
Yes, but once he learned the truth all of that would be called into
question, and ultimately undermined.
Another interesting subject would be Prayer Reverie from the Astray
X manga -- apparently another failed Al da Flaga clone (or possibly
a clone of Mu?), but utterly different from Kreuze in personality
and motivations. Even if he was raised the same as Kreuze, from
what we've seen so far he seems to have picked up family and friends
in the form of Reverend Malchio and the Junk Guild. Arguably the
same with Rey za Burrell, even if he went in a different direction
from Reverie.
Can't comment on Prayer, as I haven't read the manga. Rey seems to
have gone in the same direction as Kreuze.
And note I'm not saying Kreuze's approach is the only one available
to a clone; I'm just saying that's it's valid, where it wouldn't be
with a normal human (since humans are part of the system, and thus
ultimately responsible for their part in it).
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