Anselm Lingnau <[email protected]> wrote: > Nope. I don't have a big issue with vi coverage at weight 1,
Because text editing isn't important, correct? I agree ... if we're not going to test 'interactive' sysadmin concepts. That's the purpose of this thread. I'm for even removing all text editing altogether, along with other things 'interactive'. However ... simply because basic vi is quite easy to learn. I think the current > weight-3 objective is a > waste of two perfectly good weight points. > What I can't stand is people claiming that vi is the One True Editor and > that > you can't be a True Sysadmin™ unless you use vi. You can. And you can be _'dead in the water'_ in these cases too ... ;) - The common, Enterprise, 'reduced attack vector' install these days only with Vi (or busybox with only Vi) - VMware, KVM SPICE, etc... console that doesn't handle cursor input correctly - Random characters splashing and dorking up the screen as a result of misunderstood codes by 'the other side' - Etc... I've been there, 15 minutes to get on-line, or utterly away from any Internet (but had voice), while a junior sysadmin not only couldn't edit a file, but he screwed up a /etc/fstab. Sorry, but yeah ... this decade no less. ;) Vi is a living fossil that by historical accident is left over from the > 1970s. That has nothing to do with the exam though.** If it's the only tool available in most distros and their minimal installs, as well as busybox, then it's the gold standard. It's not like distros that have switched to postfix and others, away from sendmail, by default. Vi has continued to be the default, and usually only, in distro minimal installs, along with busybox and others. Why is that?** If nano or something else was shipping, and Vi optional, in distros, and busybox, you'd get *0* argument from me. But it's not. It's always Vi. Vi is always there ... or _nothing_ is there. So let's either test Vi, and to the max, or _nothing_. That's it. It is cool but only in the sense that a coelacanth is cool; you can't help > but be impressed that it > managed to stick around as long as it did in a world that changed such a > lot > in the meantime. Because it's damn useful. That's why it's the only text editor in many cases.** > Other 1970s icons haven't fared nearly as well; not even Unix > sysadmins still wear bell-bottom corduroy trousers and platform soles. > Ummm, there back in the US. Sorry to tell you. They're in again, and have been for awhile, especially among American females (good decade or so). As far as “removing 'interactive' altogether” is concerned, I think we need > to > draw a line somewhere. The trend is towards automation and chances are > that in > the future we'll type fewer commands into interactive shells. But the > shell > and the Unix toolkit of commands are going to stick around for a while So how are we going to edit those? Or are we all 'script kiddies' in LPIC-1, and leave the writing to others? ;) What about system configuration files? Text editing is an absolute requirement. Hence ... Vi is always there ... unless nothing is there. You cannot escape that reality, everything else aside. Give me a list of distributions that include any other editor by default, and not Vi, and I'm all ears. Go ahead. It can even be a subset of distros, a minority. I'd actually like to see one ... just one, single distro (just 1). (there will always be scripts or Ansible playbooks). So “removing > 'interactive' > altogether” may be easier said than done. I'm all in favour of > acknowledging > the importance of tools like Ansible but perhaps not in LPIC-1. > So we need text editing. So, what distros don't install Vi, but another editor by default? That's the question. And is text editing not important? Or is it one of the most important skill to know for LPIC-1? I could live with not covering text editing in LPIC-1 at all. Now that's the argument, not the "I'm tired of the rite of passage" argument.** So what do we put in place of text editing? What do we get for those 2-3 extra weights? That of course wouldn't mean text editing doesn't exist or people shouldn't > edit text, it's > just that (a) text editing on Linux in 2019 doesn't necessarily mean “vi”, > and > (b) we don't examine people on other very basic skills like typing or > using a > mouse either, we just assume that they're proficient enough at these > skills to > do whatever is needed. So using Vi and its bindings is like using a mouse? Or were you thinking of nano? ;) Adding the use of a text editor to this set of basic > skills isn't a huge thing, and we can assume that basic exam prep > materials > and classes will still have a thing or two to say about text editing, even > if > it is “run the ‘vimtutor’ command and I'll see you in a quarter of an > hour”. > So my selfish interest, from experience, with junior admins screwing up systems that don't know Vi doesn't factor in. My junior admins launching something that suddenly defaulted to Vi because VISUAL wasn't set, or Vi was the only editor on the system -- not of concern. It's really not required. It's not important. It's like a mouse? Because I really don't. > But you do. We have far more in common than we do not. - bjs **P.S. Sounds like RPN for calculators, even today on-screen or a phone. Why should I run Galculator or RealCalc in RPN modes, let alone pull out my 4MHz Saturn-based HP 48G (that needs 3xAAA every 5-7 years)? I'm stupid. I'm old. I'm a dinosaur. I'm not arguing for anyone to know it. But ... it is sure efficient. I still get people who come over, see me doing bitrate or storage calculations and go, _"What the heck is that?"_ or _"Oh, that's one of those 'Enter' type calculators."_ Why do people get upset with those of us who are _'efficient'_? I'm not _'forcing'_ RPN on anyone, any more than Vi. But if people are wondering how I work over a limited connection, or am able to automate the changes in many lines, or do a regex right in the editor, then ... well, I think my point sticks ... had hard, harder than people want to admit. Which is why the _'interest'_ turns to _'envy'_ which then turns to _'attitude.'_ "You and you [Vi|RPN|...] absolutists! You don't need to know all those things or how to use it!" Sure, you don't. But why the attitude? Oh, that's right, you run into Vi ... because it's the only thing on a system in many cases. I realized it's pretty much an universal issue, when my wife got her 2nd Masters Degree while teaching elementary. Some teachers thought it was great that she specialized into Digital Literacy, after her first Masters in Reading. Others completely gave her continual flak over it, and my wife (who grew up very poor) is the most humble person I know. Why? Apparently Reading and Digital Literacy is pretty important in Education these days, and for some reason, her having those skillsets really just pissed a select number of teachers off. It's not like it was the pay (+$1K/year for just any post-graduate, that's it).
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