Anselm Lingnau <[email protected]> wrote: > I suppose we will just have to agree to differ. >
Are you sure? Ergo ... > You use the text editor of your choice. Do any of us have a choice? In today's 'minimal install by default' secure world? Maybe I live in a really world, but my systems have busybox (w/vi), Vi (or ViM Enhanced) or nothing. Period. I don't have nano installed on any system. I have no other editors. Distros don't install it by default in minimal installs. I must be an idiot, because I don't have choice. But it's not because I'm an old guy that wants Vi. > but I'm for d*mn sure not using vi to write Python code, shell scripts, > Ansible playbooks, > LaTeX documents, or e-mail, because vi simply isn't my thing. VisualStudio Code then ;) (that's the new 'Emacs' counter it seems) > (In my experience as a Linux instructor, vi is actually very few people's > thing. The > people in my classes who actively liked or at least didn't mind vi usually > had > previous Unix experience, but virtually everybody else simply detested it. > That alone should tell us something.) > Actually, it does. That experienced people use Vi. Commonality ... _and_ the only thing on most systems these days. ;) Unless we're testing for desktops and not Enterprise server environments with minimal attack vectors. If so, I'll just tell people to skip LPIC-1 (okay, I won't, but still ...) I agree that there are Linux systems that by default come with vi and no > other > editor. These systems are what “vimtutor” is for, because if you're in the > unenviable position of having to deal with such systems, 10 minutes to > learn > the basics of vi are obviously time well spent. As far as I'm concerned we > can > even acknowledge the importance of this by asking one (not three) > questions on > the LPIC-1 exam. Then why not remove _'interactive'_ altogether? That's my counter-counter, to the counter that Vi isn't important. Let's just put it out there ... "forget text editing" and even "forget interactive." But if your real goal is productivity editing all sorts of > general text files on Linux (and I contend that it should be), then by all > means find an editor you like and are comfortable with. That editor may be > vi(m) or nano or GNU Emacs or Visual Studio Code or whatever other editor > you > like, but that choice is personal and shouldn't force anyone else to do > anything. > But that has nothing to do with objectives and a junior sysadmin not having to call up a senior just to edit a text file or, my real world, I have to either come (when I can't remote in for 'airgap' reasons**) in or boot up and do it for them (when I can). **NOTE: I was purposely trying to avoid this, but I work in environments where remoting in is not possible. DoD IAT 8570 for example. LPIC-1 and 2 are qualifying certifications. It's a really big PITA when I not only have to get a contractor to drive into a remote base, but the (censored) doesn't know Vi, and I'm so 'teaching him over the phone.' That's why I f'ing want them to be at least DoD IAT 8570 with LPIC-1!!! > > **P.S. Sounds like RPN for calculators, even today on-screen or a phone. > For the record, I've had an RPN calculator (or, these days, an RPN > calculator > app on my smartphone) for ages, because I think that – unlike vi – it > actually > is more logical and less error-prone than the alternative once you've > bought > the basic idea. I don't proselytise, though. > Back at you ... For the record, people use ViM Enhanced or X11, because I think that it is actually more logical and error-prone than Vi once you've bought into the basic idea. Because 100% of what people learn in Vi applies 100% to ViM. But then again I also like the Athena Widgets scrollbar, which was an > amazingly simple and powerful piece of UX design that didn't survive > because > some moron at Apple thought that people should be able to get by with a > one- > button mouse and pretty much everybody else thought that copying whatever > Apple was doing would be a good idea. > No (sorry, I gotcha now), Athena didn't survive because pixelated widgets don't scale. ;) I.e., just like Quartz took over Apple by 2001, Cario (used by GTK+ and Qt) took over X11 by 2003. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they not only couldn't get Windows Graphics Foundations (WGF) into Visual Studio by 2007, but it performed horrendously and required more GPU power. That's why we still have WinForms pixelated crap on Windows, and Windows looks like crap on 4K, or even 2.5K. But for those of us running Linux (or Mac), when I'm at work on my 28" 4K monitor, people come over and say, "That's beautiful! Can you make my desktop look like that!" And I'm like, "No, it's not Windows, and Windows still doesn't have vector graphics in a lot of its applications." The other nice thing about RPN calculators, BTW, is that people won't > “borrow” > them because they don't know how to get them to work ;^) > Back at you ... The bad thing about Vi is that junior sysadmins that don't know it don't know how to edit files when you're not able to get on-line, so they cannot get anything to work, if they don't dork it up, especially when I cannot even see their screen! So you have to come in, or hire someone, who may or may not know Vi, and then I'm 'teaching them over the phone.' As I said, *REAL WORLD* people! ;) - bjs
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