Hi Donna and All, I'll offer my opinion as a current Windows user. As I enter MacLand, one of the most valuable benefits of this list has been what those of you who are current Mac users offer, and that's perspective. I have a pretty good idea of the chalenges that await. For my part, I will try and learn the editing ways of Apple. If I can get used to it, I'll be better off in the long run. If it becomes too frustrating, I'll use the Windows editing feature. I suspect the first will apply based on what a number of you have said. I'm certain as a new Mac user, I'll do exactly what Donna has described, especially since I'll be back and forth between Windows and Apple. That's okay, because it's unavoidable. I do like having choices, as I suspect most who have used both operating systems do. Finally, just for the record, I think a couple of you came down too hard on Marie. I didn't take any offense to her comments. It sounded like she responded to the perceived pressure that NFB placed on Apple to implement this change. NFB hasn't exactly been at all complimentary of Apple's efforts, and that's really unfortunate. The fact that any of us who are coming over from Windows are willing to do this shows that we are open to a different way of doing things, and that's to be commended.
Les -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:27 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? I completely agree Max. Editing wasn't hard for me to learn, but web browsing and getting used to where certain things are in the system has been more of a challenge. And at least five times a day I still press Enter instead of Command-O to open a file or launch an app. And conversely, it's also gotten to the point where when I'm on my Windows machine, I try and press Command-shift-D to send an email message. I guess that's just the nature of moving back and forth between two systems. I think the more choices we as blind users have, the better, and I'd encourage anyone to just find the one that is the best fit for them. Take care, Donna -----Original Message----- From: Maxwell Ivey Jr. <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:44 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? Hi Donna; It could have just been me, but that is the point. there are people out there who have been doing it one way for so long that any change can be frustrating. I remember how many times i deleted the wrong character or inserted a character in the wrong spot and had to do it over. Now, I'm used to it. And the few times i use the windows computer I have to remember things like pressing the spacebar before entering text in a form field. Mac is the way to go. Just wish we could convince the makers of adobe, flash, eudora, and others that we can't currently use on the mac. Take care, Max On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:29 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: > > Well, I guess we all have our things. Ironically, the adjustment to > editing text has been one of the easier parts of my adjustment to the > Mac. > *smile* > Take care, > Donna >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey >> Jr. >> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 11:16 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >> >> >> Thanks donna; only wish my transition from doss to windows had been >> as easy. That was a real mind cramp sort of thing. Take care, Max >> On Aug 29, 2009, at 10:07 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: >> >>> >>> Nice post, Max. >>> Donna >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [email protected] >>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Maxwell Ivey >>>> Jr. >>>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:29 PM >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello; Just speaking for myself the hardest adjustment i had to >> make >>>> when moving to a mac was getting used to the way you have to edit >>>> text. Now, that I understand it, it is second nature; but it was a >>>> real headache in the beginning. Another one that was a tough one >>>> to get my mind around was not having multiple windows in my >>>> browser. I finallly found out that you can have multiple finder >>>> and safari windows you just cycle through them differently. It >>>> sounds like apple was doing its best to listen and adapt to what >>>> people were saying were short comings in voiceover. To me this is >>>> a good thing. Maybe they didn't get this one issue right, but I >>>> believe they continually make an honest effort to give us the most >>>> accessible easiest to use product out there. I'm still planning to >>>> wait on snow lepard. You know >> why? >>>> Its because of all the times I upgraded in windows and found things >>>> were worse instead of better. Its for all the times I kept using >> the >>>> previous version of software out of fear that the next one wouldn't >>>> work with jaws. So, thanks to apple for voiceover and their >>>> continuing commitment to universal access. You all take care, Max >>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >>>>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it >>>>> is meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are >>>>> here now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others >>>>> need >> their >>>>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as >> I >>>>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of >>>>>> people who bitched and complained about this whole editing issue >>>>>> and I >> believe >>>>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or >>>> some >>>>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >>>>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for >>>> those >>>>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this >>>>>> point because I remember clearly the noise about this editing >>>>>> issue. I >>>> see >>>>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>>> whatever >>>>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there >> are >>>>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It >> is >>>>>> an >>>>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >>>>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have >> stated >>>>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is >>>>>> not a standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it >>>>>> obviously >> didn't >>>>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >>>>>> option. >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there >>>> are >>>>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, >>>> but >>>>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>>>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to >> a >>>>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>>>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>>>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way >>>>>>> shorter learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and >>>>>>> trying to apply things to a ton of situations at once. It's >>>>>>> annoying that >> they're >>>>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going >>>>>>> to thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will >>>>>>> developers >> who >>>>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled >>>>>>> email from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to >>>>>>> their applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the >>>>>>> difference between what works and what doesn't, it gives them >>>>>>> instructions equally as precise as that email from the VI user >>>>>>> would in most cases. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get >> this >>>>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason >>>>>>> the option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't >>>>>>> in >> any >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>>>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >>>>>>> oppinion like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, >>>>>>> still use Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I >>>>>>> make my fair share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't >>>>>>> done any in a while. >>>>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. >>>>>>> I doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease >>>>>>> their progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's >>>>>>> suggested, human's just don't work that way, for the most part >>>>>>> we're creatures of >>>> habit >>>>>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >>>>>>> feature be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, >>>>>>> I'm not sure they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I >>>>>>> disagree with the feature and what's potentially at stake here >>>>>>> to a sighted mac user, and she point blank didn't get it. I'm >>>>>>> not sure that anyone who hasn't had to appreciate how cool >>>>>>> mainstream technology that >> works >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>>>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing >>>> they >>>>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side >>>>>>> of the pond... >>>>>>> Scott >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and >>>> you >>>>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the >>>>>>>> only plus side is that for those who want to make the >>>>>>>> transition and >> really >>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to >>>>>>>> ease their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree >>>>>>>> with >>>> you, >>>>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone >>>>>>>> make the transition. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>>>>>> remind me of windows are as follows. >>>>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, >>>>>>>>> especially when it already says edit text. >>>>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >>>>>>>>> intuitive and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look >>>>>>>>> to sighties. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they >>>> are >>>>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>> progression >>>>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>>>>>> glad I did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful >> to >>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >> 08/29/09 17:51:00 > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4381 (20090830) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4381 (20090830) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4381 (20090830) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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