Oh, excuse me for taking the word of the Muslim regarding the age: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/058.sbt.html
"Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234: Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age." <http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.htm>That's Islamophobia or uneducated how? Yes, I know, Islamic scholars argue about the dates and the interpretations. However, directly quoting from the Hadith is hardly any of the traits you ascribe, and your ad hominem attempts to discredit my position are beneath you. I note that you didn't respond to any of my other points. Were I to throw your own argument back at you, I would say that you can't, because they don't back up the conclusions you prefer. It's interesting how the presumption of motivation has been tossed around so freely on these topics. One of my two best friends is Muslim. I have daily proof that such a thing as a Moderate Muslim exists, much like a Moderate Christian. This entire thread, however, seem hell bent (Ha!) on ignoring that Religious Extremism (on which we both agree is the enemy) is FAR more prevalent in the Muslim controlled world than it is in the secular west. What's more, it seems to be a reasonable assertion that Islam by default requests extremism in its followers. The ultimate point, which I made earlier, is that you cannot seperate the ideology from the followers. Compare the vast majority of the Muslim world, including their movement into Western societies, and you will see far more abrogations of human rights, acts of church endorsed violence, and utter lack of tolerance than in any other major religion in the world. Try to build a Christian Church in Saudi Arabia. Hell, Pat, try to even sell your book there. Your desire for tolerance and understanding, and opposition to perceived bigotry is admirable, but it seems to be cloaked in practical ignorance. Pardon me if that comes off as a personal observation; ad hominem is not my goal. On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 8:50 AM, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 3 Dec, 22:10, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > One more point regarding the "Moral High Ground": > > > > Mohammed married Aisha when she was six years old, and consummated that > > marriage when she was nine years old. > > > > She was betrothed at about age six, but was 'married' at about age > ten. The consummation wasn't for another 2 to 4 years--certainly > after menarche. She came to his chamber and asked for him to come to > hers. Therefore, SHE instigated the consummation. He would not have > had it any other way. So, if your wife asks for sex, are you to > refuse her? If she wants it, she'll find it; and if you don't give it > to her, you force her to commit adultery. > > > Now, tell me again about the moral high ground part, while I meditate on > the > > example of pedophilia Mohammed set. > > > > Your example is out of context, not fully educated ON the subject and > is rife with Islamophobic predispositions. As you don't tell the > WHOLE story (you can't, as it wouldn't back up the conclusions you > prefer), you're quite content with your ignorance. Marrying young was > rather traditional in those days. In fact, in the pagan-Arabs, it was > often the case that children would be betrothed before they were > born. Aisha had every opportunity to not agree to the marriage (i.e., > the marriage was not a forced marriage), as the Prophet requires that > women have the right to refuse to marry if they feel they would be > unhappy and he ended the practice of betrothal before birth among the > Arabs. Aisha was the daughter of Abu Bakr, Muhammed's closest friend, > and had known Muhammed all her life and loved him because he was a > kind and caring man who had always treated her with great care and > respect. For several years, they didn't even live under the same > roof, with Aisha in Mecca and Muhammed in Medina (Yathrib). Once she > had moved to Medina, she had her own quarters which Muhammed would not > enter without her request. So, this 'pedophilia' you mention is just > ignorant Islamophobia and, in human terms, about as uncommon as 14- > year old girls falling pregnant in today's world. With the exception > that the modern girl probably isn't married and, therefore, has no > legal way of protecting the provision for such children. Meditate on > THAT, if you're fair. > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:40 AM, Pat <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > On 2 Dec, 16:57, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Muslims will be conquered by the Chinese, perhaps. The only other > > > > solution is to level their countries like we did Germany and Japan- > > > > who, at least, were industrialized. The only thing Islam has going > for > > > > it are oil deposits in various countries. But we have water. > > > > > "The only thing Islam has going for it are oil deposits in various > > > countries." > > > > > I take it, from that, that you have never read the Qur'an. The > > > main gist of it (Islam/the Qur'an) is that mankind should not oppress > > > one another and that we should care for the orphans and elderly and > > > the poor and treat all individuals with respect. Much of the > > > remainder is outlining examples of previous peoples who did NOT act > > > that way and reminding the reader of how those peoples were > > > destroyed. Also, there's a fair amount of instructions on how to > > > maintain women's rights to inheritance and their right to be heard-- > > > things that, in the West, women didn't get until the latter part of > > > the 19th Century/early 20th century. I.e., the Qur'an was, with > > > respect to women's rights, some 1300 years ahead of its time. > > > The problems come in when Western society demands its right to be > > > intoxicated and irascible to the point of outright destructive > > > behaviour afterwards and the duty to oppress one another through usury > > > and other ways (in the name of 'Survival of the Fittest', a euphemism > > > for maintaining that animal instincts are the way forward!!) and > > > Muslims don't understand why Western, supposedly civilised people, > > > demand the right to act like idiots, screw up the environment and take > > > as much as is possible from those who have the least. Muslims don't > > > view that as civilised behaviour. > > > With respect to the oil, it won't always be there, as the West is > > > using it up and fouling the Earth with its waste products. After the > > > oil is gone, what Islam will be left with is what they have had for > > > 1400+ years...the moral high ground. > > > > > > On Dec 2, 10:45 am, fran the man <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > In a referendum last Sunday, 57.5% of the Swiss voted to ban > minarets. > > > > > > > As right-wing populists cheered and liberal multi-culturalists were > > > > > shocked, the Swiss decision reflects a deep problem for western > > > > > democracies, particularly in Europe. How do you integrate a > religious > > > > > culture into a pluralist society, which has mutual tolerance as one > of > > > > > its basic principles, when significant groups in that culture > reject > > > > > many principles of that society which is trying to integrate them? > Is > > > > > this a signal that the meeting between western societies and Islam > > > > > leads to irreconcilable differences? Or is the Swiss vote > basically, > > > > > or partly, an expression of deep-seated racism and subjective views > of > > > > > cultural superiority? > > > > > > > Some background: > > > > > > >http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,664231,00.html > > > > > > > Francis- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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