Hear! Hear! Allan On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 5:12 PM, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote:
> That's the logical sense of the point's business: to maintain my moral > superiority. History books are full of this being a good motif for killing > each other. > > > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 12:23 PM, [email protected] < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Why should we not? >> >> Should we instead make our selfs guilty of the same behaviour that >> seems universal reprehensabile? Should we then sink to that level >> ourselves? Two wrongs don't make a right and all that. >> >> The point is to maintian that moral superiority. If a man steals from >> me, can I then steal from him? Wouldn't that make me also a theif? >> >> revenge killings as we know only lead to further revenge killings. We >> have here in the UK a growing youth gang problem, with kids killing >> other kids for slights imagined or otherwise, and then in turn the >> other gang of kids killing members of the ther other gang. Is that >> right, it is the correct behaviour? >> >> I doubt anybody in their right mind would say yes, so then as adults >> we should be leading by example, shouldn't we? >> >> Killing a killer makes no logical sense. >> >> On May 17, 10:21 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > IMO a person sitting on death row is there because he had no concern for >> the >> > victims rights. Why should he be afforded more rights than the person he >> > killed? >> > >> > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 6:03 AM, [email protected] < >> > >> > >> > >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > Hey Chuck, >> > >> > > That is an interesting question and I will get to it, first though you >> > > showed me yours and so it is only fair that I show you mine. >> > >> > > I too am against the death penalty. With me though it is a liberal >> > > application of the golden rule that has swayed me to my position. >> > >> > > I belive that we each have the right to make choices for ourselves, I >> > > belive then also that to remove the choice of choice from a person is >> > > a great sin. So death impossed upon you by another takes not only the >> > > choice to live from you, but also all future choices. >> > >> > > I belive it is right to imprison the probable guilty, as I belive it >> > > is right for the mother of a starving child to steal to feed that >> > > child, if that is the only choice left to her. Heh a cop out? well >> > > I'll let you answer that one. >> > >> > > On May 12, 6:11 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> >> > > wrote: >> > > > I am against the death penalty. >> > >> > > > Not because I think it is wrong to kill another human. But because I >> feel >> > > > that the legal system has too many flaws to make reliable judgments >> on a >> > > > persons life. >> > >> > > > But then, this is a rich society that can afford to support it's >> > > criminals. >> > > > In a third world country where villages are barely scraping by as it >> is I >> > > > think the criteria for deciding death might be different. Do you >> support >> > > the >> > > > incarceration of someone who is probably guilty or save a starving >> child? >> > >> > > > BTW, that wasn't an implication to save the starving child by >> feeding him >> > > a >> > > > criminal. Maybe feed the criminal to a goat who would in turn supply >> milk >> > > > for the child. :) >> > >> > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 8:25 AM, [email protected] < >> > >> > > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > I don't know that I agree with the second part. It seems to me >> that >> > > > > one moral rule that mostly all societys have is about killing and >> how >> > > > > imorral it is. >> > >> > > > > However non of that answers my question on your stance on the >> death >> > > > > penalty Chuck? >> > >> > > > > On May 12, 2:15 pm, Chuck Bowling < >> [email protected]> >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > To the individual life seems important. But, as I said in >> another >> > > post, >> > > > > life >> > > > > > to society in general seems to have little value. Why would the >> life >> > > of a >> > > > > > convict who commits a horrendous crime have any more value than >> > > soldiers >> > > > > > sent off to fight in a war? >> > >> > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:43 AM, [email protected] < >> > >> > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > Indeed it is, you'll get no argument otherwise from me on that >> > > score. >> > > > > > > How can it not be? Who else can say that you are happy or >> fulfield >> > > > > > > but yourself? >> > >> > > > > > > What though of your stance on the dealth penalty and why >> Chuck? >> > >> > > > > > > On May 12, 1:39 pm, Chuck Bowling < >> [email protected] >> > >> > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > One could argue that a mentally handicapped individual is >> happy >> > > and >> > > > > > > > fulfilled. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. >> Does >> > > > > > > fulfillment >> > > > > > > > imply that one has reached some significant milestone in >> life? >> > >> > > > > > > > Whatever the meaning, personal fulfillment only >> characterizes the >> > > > > value >> > > > > > > of >> > > > > > > > one's own life. Not the lives of others. It is a subjective >> value >> > > > > > > judgment >> > > > > > > > made by the individual and not by society. >> > >> > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:06 AM, >> [email protected] < >> > >> > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > Haha a brilliant answer Chuck, yes for some I guess it >> does all >> > > > > depend >> > > > > > > > > on how much we vaule life. >> > >> > > > > > > > > Myself, I'm sorta with you, we are here for an >> insicnificant >> > > amount >> > > > > of >> > > > > > > > > time, life can seem futile, that though is if we appraoch >> the >> > > > > question >> > > > > > > > > in a nihlistic way. Others would argue that life is what >> you >> > > make >> > > > > it, >> > > > > > > > > and what you make of your short time here is more >> important >> > > than >> > > > > simpy >> > > > > > > > > beeing alive. I mean of course a life spent in agony and >> > > > > unhappiness >> > > > > > > > > is not a life at all, but one spent happy and fullfiled >> would >> > > be, >> > > > > well >> > > > > > > > > happy and fullfiled. >> > >> > > > > > > > > What do you think though Chuck? >> > >> > > > > > > > > On May 12, 12:29 pm, Chuck Bowling < >> > > > > [email protected]> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > Humans are on this earth for a tiny sliver of time. The >> > > impact we >> > > > > > > have on >> > > > > > > > > > the universe as individuals is minute. To believe that >> we are >> > > > > somehow >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > than that is pure hubris on our parts. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > The inevitability of death makes life an exercise in >> > > futility. We >> > > > > > > have >> > > > > > > > > but >> > > > > > > > > > one purpose which is to spawn. Once that is finished we >> sit >> > > > > around >> > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > twiddle our thumbs until death. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > That said, I guess being for or against the death >> penalty >> > > depends >> > > > > on >> > > > > > > how >> > > > > > > > > you >> > > > > > > > > > value life. IMO, we are all just meat. If politicians >> can >> > > send >> > > > > > > teenagers >> > > > > > > > > off >> > > > > > > > > > to fight for oil and hundreds of children die of >> starvation >> > > in >> > > > > third >> > > > > > > > > world >> > > > > > > > > > countries while the obesity epidemic in America grows >> without >> > > > > bounds >> > > > > > > then >> > > > > > > > > > life must not be very valuable. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:59 AM, >> > > [email protected] < >> > >> > > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > Hey Chuck, >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > It's an interesting thought experiment to consider why >> we >> > > are >> > > > > for >> > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > > > > agianst the death penalty. I'll go right ahead and >> > > proclaim >> > > > > that I >> > > > > > > am >> > > > > > > > > > > against it in all case. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps not for the reasons you might think, and I'll >> get >> > > to >> > > > > them >> > > > > > > > > > > eventualy but I would first like to hear others >> thoughts. >> > > Of >> > > > > > > course I >> > > > > > > > > > > belive OM (and maybe Amanda?) probably knows my >> reasoning, >> > > he >> > > > > and >> > > > > > > I, >> > > > > > > > > > > as he keeps telling me, have bashed about a lot of our >> > > ideas >> > > > > over >> > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > years. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 11:43 am, Chuck Bowling < >> > > > > > > [email protected]> >> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > Not really. I do 3d illustration/animation and video >> > > edits. >> > > > > It >> > > > > > > takes >> > > > > > > > > more >> > > > > > > > > > > > than just a little cut & paste to produce a >> convincing >> > > fake. >> > > > > I'm >> > > > > > > not >> > > > > > > > > > > saying >> > > > > > > > > > > > that it can't be done. I'm sure that there are >> government >> > > > > > > agencies >> > > > > > > > > with >> > > > > > > > > > > lots >> > > > > > > > > > > > of money to throw around who could do it but I'd be >> > > pretty >> > > > > > > skeptical >> > > > > > > > > if >> > > > > > > > > > > > someone's defense rested on conspiracies by men in >> black. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > As to the justice system, I never said that it was >> > > perfect. >> > > > > In >> > > > > > > fact, >> > > > > > > > > I >> > > > > > > > > > > think >> > > > > > > > > > > > it is very flawed. Often cases are prosecuted based >> not >> > > on >> > > > > guilt >> > > > > > > or >> > > > > > > > > > > > innocence but on political agendas. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > But then as I said before, IMO defendants should >> never be >> > > put >> > > > > on >> > > > > > > > > death >> > > > > > > > > > > row >> > > > > > > > > > > > unless the evidence is incontrovertible. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:52 AM, ornamentalmind >> > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, and as what is perhaps a shallow argument, >> video >> > > can >> > > > > all >> > > > > > > too >> > > > > > > > > > > > > easily be edited. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > And, it is well documented that the US justice >> system >> > > has >> > > > > > > executed >> > > > > > > > > and >> > > > > > > > > > > > > continues to execute many who were/are innocent of >> the >> > > > > crime >> > > > > > > > > involved. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, Chuck Bowling < >> > > > > > > > > [email protected]> >> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty should never be >> used >> > > in >> > > > > cases >> > > > > > > > > where >> > > > > > > > > > > the >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > evidence is circumstantial. However, in cases >> where >> > > there >> > > > > is >> > > > > > > no >> > > > > > > > > > > dispute >> > > > > > > > > > > > > (say >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > a video of a guy committing a horrendous crime), >> I >> > > think >> > > > > it >> > > > > > > > > should be >> > > > > > > > > > > > > used. >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > This person is a threat to society and his >> impact on >> > > the >> > > > > > > > > resources of >> > > > > > > > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > society should be minimalized. In other words he >> > > should >> > > > > be >> > > > > > > put to >> > > > > > > > > > > death >> > > > > > > > > > > > > as >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > soon and as economically as possible. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'm absolutely against inhumane >> treatment. >> > > > > While >> > > > > > > that >> > > > > > > > > > > person >> > > > > > > > > > > > > may >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be a monster there is no real justification in >> > > tormenting >> > > > > him >> > > > > > > in >> > > > > > > > > his >> > > > > > > > > > > > > final >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > hours or minutes. >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM, ornamentalmind >> < >> > > > > > > > > > > > > [email protected] >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty isn’t a >> > > > > punishment…although, >> > > > > > > it >> > > > > > > > > is >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > often torture and ‘cruel and unusual’. It also >> is >> > > not >> > > > > > > > > reversible. >> > >> > ... >> > >> > read more »- Hide quoted text - >> > >> > - Show quoted text - >> > > -- ( ) I_D Allan If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
