To the individual life seems important. But, as I said in another post, life to society in general seems to have little value. Why would the life of a convict who commits a horrendous crime have any more value than soldiers sent off to fight in a war?
On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:43 AM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Indeed it is, you'll get no argument otherwise from me on that score. > How can it not be? Who else can say that you are happy or fulfield > but yourself? > > What though of your stance on the dealth penalty and why Chuck? > > On May 12, 1:39 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > wrote: > > One could argue that a mentally handicapped individual is happy and > > fulfilled. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. Does > fulfillment > > imply that one has reached some significant milestone in life? > > > > Whatever the meaning, personal fulfillment only characterizes the value > of > > one's own life. Not the lives of others. It is a subjective value > judgment > > made by the individual and not by society. > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:06 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Haha a brilliant answer Chuck, yes for some I guess it does all depend > > > on how much we vaule life. > > > > > Myself, I'm sorta with you, we are here for an insicnificant amount of > > > time, life can seem futile, that though is if we appraoch the question > > > in a nihlistic way. Others would argue that life is what you make it, > > > and what you make of your short time here is more important than simpy > > > beeing alive. I mean of course a life spent in agony and unhappiness > > > is not a life at all, but one spent happy and fullfiled would be, well > > > happy and fullfiled. > > > > > What do you think though Chuck? > > > > > On May 12, 12:29 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > Humans are on this earth for a tiny sliver of time. The impact we > have on > > > > the universe as individuals is minute. To believe that we are somehow > > > more > > > > than that is pure hubris on our parts. > > > > > > The inevitability of death makes life an exercise in futility. We > have > > > but > > > > one purpose which is to spawn. Once that is finished we sit around > and > > > > twiddle our thumbs until death. > > > > > > That said, I guess being for or against the death penalty depends on > how > > > you > > > > value life. IMO, we are all just meat. If politicians can send > teenagers > > > off > > > > to fight for oil and hundreds of children die of starvation in third > > > world > > > > countries while the obesity epidemic in America grows without bounds > then > > > > life must not be very valuable. > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:59 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hey Chuck, > > > > > > > It's an interesting thought experiment to consider why we are for > or > > > > > agianst the death penalty. I'll go right ahead and proclaim that I > am > > > > > against it in all case. > > > > > > > Perhaps not for the reasons you might think, and I'll get to them > > > > > eventualy but I would first like to hear others thoughts. Of > course I > > > > > belive OM (and maybe Amanda?) probably knows my reasoning, he and > I, > > > > > as he keeps telling me, have bashed about a lot of our ideas over > the > > > > > years. > > > > > > > On May 12, 11:43 am, Chuck Bowling < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Not really. I do 3d illustration/animation and video edits. It > takes > > > more > > > > > > than just a little cut & paste to produce a convincing fake. I'm > not > > > > > saying > > > > > > that it can't be done. I'm sure that there are government > agencies > > > with > > > > > lots > > > > > > of money to throw around who could do it but I'd be pretty > skeptical > > > if > > > > > > someone's defense rested on conspiracies by men in black. > > > > > > > > As to the justice system, I never said that it was perfect. In > fact, > > > I > > > > > think > > > > > > it is very flawed. Often cases are prosecuted based not on guilt > or > > > > > > innocence but on political agendas. > > > > > > > > But then as I said before, IMO defendants should never be put on > > > death > > > > > row > > > > > > unless the evidence is incontrovertible. > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:52 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > Oh, and as what is perhaps a shallow argument, video can all > too > > > > > > > easily be edited. > > > > > > > > > And, it is well documented that the US justice system has > executed > > > and > > > > > > > continues to execute many who were/are innocent of the crime > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, Chuck Bowling < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty should never be used in cases > > > where > > > > > the > > > > > > > > evidence is circumstantial. However, in cases where there is > no > > > > > dispute > > > > > > > (say > > > > > > > > a video of a guy committing a horrendous crime), I think it > > > should be > > > > > > > used. > > > > > > > > This person is a threat to society and his impact on the > > > resources of > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > society should be minimalized. In other words he should be > put to > > > > > death > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > soon and as economically as possible. > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'm absolutely against inhumane treatment. While > that > > > > > person > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > be a monster there is no real justification in tormenting him > in > > > his > > > > > > > final > > > > > > > > hours or minutes. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM, ornamentalmind < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty isn’t a punishment…although, > it > > > is > > > > > > > > > often torture and ‘cruel and unusual’. It also is not > > > reversible. > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > also is misapplied and used all too often against those who > are > > > > > > > > > innocent of the crime involved. > > > > > > > > > > > All of the practical issues aside, to me, if killing is > “wrong” > > > > > > > > > somehow, so is killing a killer. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 10:12 am, Chuck Bowling < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I think the word 'deserving' used in this context is > kinda > > > silly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's start with a simple example. A guy kills somebody > in a > > > > > brutal > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > he is already suicidal and wants to die does he 'deserve' > to > > > die? > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > case > > > > > > > > > > implies that he deserves to be rewarded for a brutal > murder. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't claim to know Bin Laden's mindset at the time of > his > > > > > death > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > the sake of argument let's say that his one true goal is > to > > > be a > > > > > > > martyr > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > Allah. Does he deserve martyerdom? > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole idea of death as a punishment is silly. When > > > someone is > > > > > > > dead > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > no longer feel punished. IMO, they feel absolutely > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that doesn't mean that I'm against putting people to > > > death > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > crimes > > > > > > > > > > against society. I just look at the reasoning > differently. > > > The > > > > > death > > > > > > > > > penalty > > > > > > > > > > isn't a punishment. It's simply removing a tumor that is > > > > > detrimental > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:35 AM, pol.science kid < > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading about natural law..and a though came to > my > > > mind > > > > > ...in > > > > > > > > > > > connection to revenge...and the concept of 'deserving' > what > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > > > gets..recent example osama deserved to die for what he > > > > > did...what i > > > > > > > > > > > mean is...is it natural...or universally presumed > ...like > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > language to 'forgive' ...not give ...give back....give > back > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > > > > due...the same injury...i cant go into detail at the > moment > > > but > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > what the jist is...is it a crude neutralising of > > > equation...is > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > what it all comes down to in simple terms- Hide quoted > text > > > - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -
