I don't know that I agree with the second part. It seems to me that one moral rule that mostly all societys have is about killing and how imorral it is.
However non of that answers my question on your stance on the death penalty Chuck? On May 12, 2:15 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> wrote: > To the individual life seems important. But, as I said in another post, life > to society in general seems to have little value. Why would the life of a > convict who commits a horrendous crime have any more value than soldiers > sent off to fight in a war? > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:43 AM, [email protected] < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > Indeed it is, you'll get no argument otherwise from me on that score. > > How can it not be? Who else can say that you are happy or fulfield > > but yourself? > > > What though of your stance on the dealth penalty and why Chuck? > > > On May 12, 1:39 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > One could argue that a mentally handicapped individual is happy and > > > fulfilled. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. Does > > fulfillment > > > imply that one has reached some significant milestone in life? > > > > Whatever the meaning, personal fulfillment only characterizes the value > > of > > > one's own life. Not the lives of others. It is a subjective value > > judgment > > > made by the individual and not by society. > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:06 AM, [email protected] < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > Haha a brilliant answer Chuck, yes for some I guess it does all depend > > > > on how much we vaule life. > > > > > Myself, I'm sorta with you, we are here for an insicnificant amount of > > > > time, life can seem futile, that though is if we appraoch the question > > > > in a nihlistic way. Others would argue that life is what you make it, > > > > and what you make of your short time here is more important than simpy > > > > beeing alive. I mean of course a life spent in agony and unhappiness > > > > is not a life at all, but one spent happy and fullfiled would be, well > > > > happy and fullfiled. > > > > > What do you think though Chuck? > > > > > On May 12, 12:29 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Humans are on this earth for a tiny sliver of time. The impact we > > have on > > > > > the universe as individuals is minute. To believe that we are somehow > > > > more > > > > > than that is pure hubris on our parts. > > > > > > The inevitability of death makes life an exercise in futility. We > > have > > > > but > > > > > one purpose which is to spawn. Once that is finished we sit around > > and > > > > > twiddle our thumbs until death. > > > > > > That said, I guess being for or against the death penalty depends on > > how > > > > you > > > > > value life. IMO, we are all just meat. If politicians can send > > teenagers > > > > off > > > > > to fight for oil and hundreds of children die of starvation in third > > > > world > > > > > countries while the obesity epidemic in America grows without bounds > > then > > > > > life must not be very valuable. > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:59 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Hey Chuck, > > > > > > > It's an interesting thought experiment to consider why we are for > > or > > > > > > agianst the death penalty. I'll go right ahead and proclaim that I > > am > > > > > > against it in all case. > > > > > > > Perhaps not for the reasons you might think, and I'll get to them > > > > > > eventualy but I would first like to hear others thoughts. Of > > course I > > > > > > belive OM (and maybe Amanda?) probably knows my reasoning, he and > > I, > > > > > > as he keeps telling me, have bashed about a lot of our ideas over > > the > > > > > > years. > > > > > > > On May 12, 11:43 am, Chuck Bowling < > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Not really. I do 3d illustration/animation and video edits. It > > takes > > > > more > > > > > > > than just a little cut & paste to produce a convincing fake. I'm > > not > > > > > > saying > > > > > > > that it can't be done. I'm sure that there are government > > agencies > > > > with > > > > > > lots > > > > > > > of money to throw around who could do it but I'd be pretty > > skeptical > > > > if > > > > > > > someone's defense rested on conspiracies by men in black. > > > > > > > > As to the justice system, I never said that it was perfect. In > > fact, > > > > I > > > > > > think > > > > > > > it is very flawed. Often cases are prosecuted based not on guilt > > or > > > > > > > innocence but on political agendas. > > > > > > > > But then as I said before, IMO defendants should never be put on > > > > death > > > > > > row > > > > > > > unless the evidence is incontrovertible. > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:52 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > Oh, and as what is perhaps a shallow argument, video can all > > too > > > > > > > > easily be edited. > > > > > > > > > And, it is well documented that the US justice system has > > executed > > > > and > > > > > > > > continues to execute many who were/are innocent of the crime > > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, Chuck Bowling < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty should never be used in cases > > > > where > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > evidence is circumstantial. However, in cases where there is > > no > > > > > > dispute > > > > > > > > (say > > > > > > > > > a video of a guy committing a horrendous crime), I think it > > > > should be > > > > > > > > used. > > > > > > > > > This person is a threat to society and his impact on the > > > > resources of > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > society should be minimalized. In other words he should be > > put to > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > soon and as economically as possible. > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'm absolutely against inhumane treatment. While > > that > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > be a monster there is no real justification in tormenting him > > in > > > > his > > > > > > > > final > > > > > > > > > hours or minutes. > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM, ornamentalmind < > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty isn’t a punishment…although, > > it > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > often torture and ‘cruel and unusual’. It also is not > > > > reversible. > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > also is misapplied and used all too often against those who > > are > > > > > > > > > > innocent of the crime involved. > > > > > > > > > > > All of the practical issues aside, to me, if killing is > > “wrong” > > > > > > > > > > somehow, so is killing a killer. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 10:12 am, Chuck Bowling < > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I think the word 'deserving' used in this context is > > kinda > > > > silly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's start with a simple example. A guy kills somebody > > in a > > > > > > brutal > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > > he is already suicidal and wants to die does he 'deserve' > > to > > > > die? > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > case > > > > > > > > > > > implies that he deserves to be rewarded for a brutal > > murder. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't claim to know Bin Laden's mindset at the time of > > his > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > the sake of argument let's say that his one true goal is > > to > > > > be a > > > > > > > > martyr > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > Allah. Does he deserve martyerdom? > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole idea of death as a punishment is silly. When > > > > someone is > > > > > > > > dead > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > no longer feel punished. IMO, they feel absolutely > > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that doesn't mean that I'm against putting people to > > > > death > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > crimes > > > > > > > > > > > against society. I just look at the reasoning > > differently. > > > > The > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > > > penalty > > > > > > > > > > > isn't a punishment. It's simply removing a tumor that is > > > > > > detrimental > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:35 AM, pol.science kid < > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading about natural law..and a though came to > > my > > > > mind > > > > > > ...in > > > > > > > > > > > > connection to revenge...and the concept of 'deserving' > > what > > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > > > > gets..recent example osama deserved to die for what he > > > > > > did...what i > > > > > > > > > > > > mean is...is it natural...or universally presumed > > ...like > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > language to 'forgive' ...not give ...give back....give > > back > > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > > > > > due...the same injury...i cant go into detail at the > > moment > > > > but > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > what the jist is...is it a crude neutralising of > > > > equation...is > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > what it all comes down to in simple terms- Hide quoted > > text > > > > - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
