I am against the death penalty. Not because I think it is wrong to kill another human. But because I feel that the legal system has too many flaws to make reliable judgments on a persons life.
But then, this is a rich society that can afford to support it's criminals. In a third world country where villages are barely scraping by as it is I think the criteria for deciding death might be different. Do you support the incarceration of someone who is probably guilty or save a starving child? BTW, that wasn't an implication to save the starving child by feeding him a criminal. Maybe feed the criminal to a goat who would in turn supply milk for the child. :) On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 8:25 AM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > I don't know that I agree with the second part. It seems to me that > one moral rule that mostly all societys have is about killing and how > imorral it is. > > However non of that answers my question on your stance on the death > penalty Chuck? > > On May 12, 2:15 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > wrote: > > To the individual life seems important. But, as I said in another post, > life > > to society in general seems to have little value. Why would the life of a > > convict who commits a horrendous crime have any more value than soldiers > > sent off to fight in a war? > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:43 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Indeed it is, you'll get no argument otherwise from me on that score. > > > How can it not be? Who else can say that you are happy or fulfield > > > but yourself? > > > > > What though of your stance on the dealth penalty and why Chuck? > > > > > On May 12, 1:39 pm, Chuck Bowling <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > One could argue that a mentally handicapped individual is happy and > > > > fulfilled. To be honest, I don't even know what that means. Does > > > fulfillment > > > > imply that one has reached some significant milestone in life? > > > > > > Whatever the meaning, personal fulfillment only characterizes the > value > > > of > > > > one's own life. Not the lives of others. It is a subjective value > > > judgment > > > > made by the individual and not by society. > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 7:06 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Haha a brilliant answer Chuck, yes for some I guess it does all > depend > > > > > on how much we vaule life. > > > > > > > Myself, I'm sorta with you, we are here for an insicnificant amount > of > > > > > time, life can seem futile, that though is if we appraoch the > question > > > > > in a nihlistic way. Others would argue that life is what you make > it, > > > > > and what you make of your short time here is more important than > simpy > > > > > beeing alive. I mean of course a life spent in agony and > unhappiness > > > > > is not a life at all, but one spent happy and fullfiled would be, > well > > > > > happy and fullfiled. > > > > > > > What do you think though Chuck? > > > > > > > On May 12, 12:29 pm, Chuck Bowling < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Humans are on this earth for a tiny sliver of time. The impact we > > > have on > > > > > > the universe as individuals is minute. To believe that we are > somehow > > > > > more > > > > > > than that is pure hubris on our parts. > > > > > > > > The inevitability of death makes life an exercise in futility. We > > > have > > > > > but > > > > > > one purpose which is to spawn. Once that is finished we sit > around > > > and > > > > > > twiddle our thumbs until death. > > > > > > > > That said, I guess being for or against the death penalty depends > on > > > how > > > > > you > > > > > > value life. IMO, we are all just meat. If politicians can send > > > teenagers > > > > > off > > > > > > to fight for oil and hundreds of children die of starvation in > third > > > > > world > > > > > > countries while the obesity epidemic in America grows without > bounds > > > then > > > > > > life must not be very valuable. > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 5:59 AM, [email protected] < > > > > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Chuck, > > > > > > > > > It's an interesting thought experiment to consider why we are > for > > > or > > > > > > > agianst the death penalty. I'll go right ahead and proclaim > that I > > > am > > > > > > > against it in all case. > > > > > > > > > Perhaps not for the reasons you might think, and I'll get to > them > > > > > > > eventualy but I would first like to hear others thoughts. Of > > > course I > > > > > > > belive OM (and maybe Amanda?) probably knows my reasoning, he > and > > > I, > > > > > > > as he keeps telling me, have bashed about a lot of our ideas > over > > > the > > > > > > > years. > > > > > > > > > On May 12, 11:43 am, Chuck Bowling < > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Not really. I do 3d illustration/animation and video edits. > It > > > takes > > > > > more > > > > > > > > than just a little cut & paste to produce a convincing fake. > I'm > > > not > > > > > > > saying > > > > > > > > that it can't be done. I'm sure that there are government > > > agencies > > > > > with > > > > > > > lots > > > > > > > > of money to throw around who could do it but I'd be pretty > > > skeptical > > > > > if > > > > > > > > someone's defense rested on conspiracies by men in black. > > > > > > > > > > As to the justice system, I never said that it was perfect. > In > > > fact, > > > > > I > > > > > > > think > > > > > > > > it is very flawed. Often cases are prosecuted based not on > guilt > > > or > > > > > > > > innocence but on political agendas. > > > > > > > > > > But then as I said before, IMO defendants should never be put > on > > > > > death > > > > > > > row > > > > > > > > unless the evidence is incontrovertible. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 3:52 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, and as what is perhaps a shallow argument, video can > all > > > too > > > > > > > > > easily be edited. > > > > > > > > > > > And, it is well documented that the US justice system has > > > executed > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > continues to execute many who were/are innocent of the > crime > > > > > involved. > > > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 11:23 pm, Chuck Bowling < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty should never be used in > cases > > > > > where > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > evidence is circumstantial. However, in cases where there > is > > > no > > > > > > > dispute > > > > > > > > > (say > > > > > > > > > > a video of a guy committing a horrendous crime), I think > it > > > > > should be > > > > > > > > > used. > > > > > > > > > > This person is a threat to society and his impact on the > > > > > resources of > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > society should be minimalized. In other words he should > be > > > put to > > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > soon and as economically as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'm absolutely against inhumane treatment. > While > > > that > > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > be a monster there is no real justification in tormenting > him > > > in > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > final > > > > > > > > > > hours or minutes. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 11:15 PM, ornamentalmind < > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that the death penalty isn’t a > punishment…although, > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > often torture and ‘cruel and unusual’. It also is not > > > > > reversible. > > > > > > > It > > > > > > > > > > > also is misapplied and used all too often against those > who > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > innocent of the crime involved. > > > > > > > > > > > > > All of the practical issues aside, to me, if killing is > > > “wrong” > > > > > > > > > > > somehow, so is killing a killer. Period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 11, 10:12 am, Chuck Bowling < > > > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I think the word 'deserving' used in this context is > > > kinda > > > > > silly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's start with a simple example. A guy kills > somebody > > > in a > > > > > > > brutal > > > > > > > > > way. > > > > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > > > he is already suicidal and wants to die does he > 'deserve' > > > to > > > > > die? > > > > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > case > > > > > > > > > > > > implies that he deserves to be rewarded for a brutal > > > murder. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't claim to know Bin Laden's mindset at the time > of > > > his > > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > the sake of argument let's say that his one true goal > is > > > to > > > > > be a > > > > > > > > > martyr > > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > > Allah. Does he deserve martyerdom? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The whole idea of death as a punishment is silly. > When > > > > > someone is > > > > > > > > > dead > > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > no longer feel punished. IMO, they feel absolutely > > > nothing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Note that doesn't mean that I'm against putting > people to > > > > > death > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > crimes > > > > > > > > > > > > against society. I just look at the reasoning > > > differently. > > > > > The > > > > > > > death > > > > > > > > > > > penalty > > > > > > > > > > > > isn't a punishment. It's simply removing a tumor that > is > > > > > > > detrimental > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > whole. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 10:35 AM, pol.science kid < > > > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > > > > > > > > > >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading about natural law..and a though came > to > > > my > > > > > mind > > > > > > > ...in > > > > > > > > > > > > > connection to revenge...and the concept of > 'deserving' > > > what > > > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > > > > > gets..recent example osama deserved to die for what > he > > > > > > > did...what i > > > > > > > > > > > > > mean is...is it natural...or universally presumed > > > ...like > > > > > in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > language to 'forgive' ...not give ...give > back....give > > > back > > > > > > > what is > > > > > > > > > > > > > due...the same injury...i cant go into detail at > the > > > moment > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > > what the jist is...is it a crude neutralising of > > > > > equation...is > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > what it all comes down to in simple terms- Hide > quoted > > > text > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -
