There is another way into what you put forward RP. Our various perspectives in ME are clouded because we don't really understand each other (Gabby's proviso that even what we discuss is limited is good, but remains like Socrates' gadfly) - how can a science-brute like me understand the pursuit on inner contentment through religious commitment? Society generally shies away from understanding the other and hard intellectual work. I've taught too many people not to believe this, but I also know most of what we we are supposed to teach has had little evaluation, including the way we rank people through marking - and, of course, by ranking those without the educational opportunity as failures.
I might talk about Descartes and his programme to evaluate knowledge. Until this was done he said we had to rely on a benevolent God. Generally, people have little clue who Descartes was or the time of the Inquisition. In some ways, I am as clueless when Molly is talking about religion - here she sounds like an economist proceeding from various fairy tales designed to exclude what I think of as data (to me). On social issues, where we share more experience, I find a much more compelling analysis. Behind the scenes in education one can hear much disparaging talk on pupils and students - lazy, arrogant, ignorant, attention spans of gnats, distracted to libidinal trivia at the drop of a hat, racist, bullying, homophobic, cheating, plagiarising little shits - though in public we hear a load of positive hype on the "fine young people". Goffman wrote some classic material on this. "Self" is, in fact, presented in very different ways in different places. Our notion of 'rational discussion' is, in fact, a lie, just a situation of mannered convention. There is a load of work on this (Norbert Elias is a classic) - but to know is to 'cast pearl before swine' (true but not a good way to be regarding others). A classic teaching position on all this is to teach "postmodernism", in some ways a Nietzschean call for evaluation of metanarratives like religion, economics and current theory by an attitude of incredulity towards them. Yet I still get to mark the work - a situation that should itself be subject to incredulity. What role should the ignorant play in discussion and decision? This group reflects a lot of my experience with dialogue and its lack of the perspectives of others, whether from the canon of various academies or people who can't or won't do the hard work with such. We might wonder how we have come to be so uneducated and the silencing of testimony so routine. We need a theory of incompetence to help us realise how incompetent we have become. On Wednesday, February 4, 2015 at 2:51:20 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote: > > Nobody interested in giving his view on this? > > On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 7:03 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> We can have a positive attitude or a negative attitude , but can we have >> a neutral attitude? >> >> On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 6:16 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> I have found that attachment to fruits of actions lead to much >>> heartbreak when the opposite of your expectation happens. It is written in >>> the Gita that a person should live in a state of detachment and be the same >>> in the good or bad occurrences , I don't know if this is possible human >>> nature being what it is , but if we can reach this state I think we can be >>> better persons. Everything being history only actions are in our hands >>> including that of efforts to change ourselves , and the future is history. >>> If you are expecting good and something very bad happens it seems like a >>> shock and for some moment at least you lose your balance but if you are >>> detached to the fruits of actions you are in a state of coolness and not >>> shaken by the greatest calamity ever. >>> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:44 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> You have to accept before you do and if you cannot accept the process >>>> stops. You have to keep some framework in your conscious mind to keep a >>>> conscious check on yourself and it is not a creed but a way of living , >>>> trying to improve yourself as a person. Now what wrong could be there in >>>> having self-respect and not being arrogant , what wrong in not being >>>> greedy >>>> and not have anger issues. If you want to stop smoking you have to first >>>> take the decision to stop , then only can you give the effort. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:02 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I don't really do creed Allan. Found too many people who talk them >>>>> and mean none. Chris' statement is probably as close as I get, but this >>>>> soon doesn't work in practice. Doing no harm to others quickly proves >>>>> difficult. We do this in the West simply by living as we do, praying to >>>>> the >>>>> Lord or otherwise. In some philosophy, all speech has a hostile >>>>> element,as >>>>> does censorship on what can be said. >>>>> >>>>> The first thing for me is evidence. This is an extremely difficult >>>>> topic. Molly's God is quite acceptable to me, but my evidence is not >>>>> direct. I only feel 'him' in her words (even this in evidence terms is >>>>> inadequate - 'words' - we have never met). >>>>> The next is probably what Allan is trying to do here. I have some >>>>> conception of myself as a person and the turmoil of my thought and making >>>>> sense of stuff. Other people have often proved to have much better (and >>>>> much worse) ideas and been prepared to share them. George Kelly springs >>>>> to >>>>> my mind on this - http://www.centrepcp.co.uk/whatis.htm - and >>>>> personal construct theory. >>>>> I approve Allan's efforts here (though it's important to me he need no >>>>> such approval) - but immediately think we have a lot of material from all >>>>> over the world and hundreds of different cultures (there are this many on >>>>> Papua New Guinea alone). What of the evidence we have from them, against >>>>> our predominantly 'white insularity'? >>>>> Evidence, imagination and trying to do the right thing. Read about >>>>> Socrates in Plato, but remember the fine words came from the free table >>>>> at >>>>> the head of a slave society. Hear about the Good Samaritan, but wonder >>>>> why >>>>> we still have a society of 'worthies' that just pass on by, perhaps to >>>>> their church of peace. >>>>> >>>>> Gabby doesn't live down a rabbit hole in Seven Acres Park Allan. I >>>>> thought she might not be answering the dogs' knocks because she doesn't >>>>> like me, so asked the woman with the ferrets (she is real) to have them >>>>> check. The world of imagination is such that when Gabbs says 'it smells >>>>> in >>>>> here' it could be because she has just come in, or she may be the little >>>>> child pointing out the Emperor is naked. Language is harder than we >>>>> think. I have 'one smart little cookie' in mind about Gabby. This could >>>>> be >>>>> chronic sexism, patronising, an insult to cookies - or a quick utter of >>>>> something I think that isn't quite that - or an offer to be beaten up by >>>>> politically correct bullies. Walk with me into the rabbit hole of !Kung >>>>> society - we would find no adult twins and we might ponder genetics - in >>>>> fact, infanticide is common in their tough world. Would we think badly >>>>> of >>>>> them? They have creed. >>>>> >>>>> It goes dark at night, therefore big bang. I prefer the way >>>>> scientists explain this to instruments of torture. Doing no harm to >>>>> others >>>>> collapses with je suis charlie. Religion sounds very selfish to me. Yet >>>>> one can admire Salvation Army people doing a soup run, despite their >>>>> views >>>>> on homosexuality. Would I kill the second born twin? Down the !Kung >>>>> rabbit hole I probably would as !Kung. So where does creed come from? >>>>> >>>>> I'd like us to live in evidence based practice. Why we still speak of >>>>> creed in today's world of Public Relations appals me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 10:07:28 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Neil are you sure Cabbies hiding in a rabbit hole?? Would like the >>>>>> guidelines she and the rest of the ME following.. >>>>>> >>>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: Minds-Eye <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 9:13 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Moral compass >>>>>> >>>>>> It's difficult to boil something as complex as personal moral >>>>>> relativism down into some simple edicts. I suppose the closest I could >>>>>> add >>>>>> would be: >>>>>> >>>>>> - If it harms none, do as you will. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:37 PM, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I hope others doctrine their personal moral ideas to the >>>>>>> discussion. The more we have the better ,, that includes you Chris. >>>>>>> And >>>>>>> Neil. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Sun, 01 Feb 2015 3:37 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Moral compass >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My moral compass >>>>>>> Don't fear anything , but use your reasoning faculty to do the right >>>>>>> thing. >>>>>>> do not covet but earn and save for the needs of yourself and family. >>>>>>> Do not be lustful but be happy with your spouse. >>>>>>> Do not be arrogant but respect yourself and others. >>>>>>> Don't be angry but take care to do your duties. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 7:20 PM, Allan H <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you want a social experiment we need to set up moral guidelines >>>>>>>> from which to work.. if you disagree with them that is fine. ,, no >>>>>>>> problem.. just remember it really is a social experiment,, you need >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> come up with what your personal moral compass to replace it.. it is >>>>>>>> not a >>>>>>>> cut and paste exercise. My compass is around 500 created in length,, >>>>>>>> presentations should around that length. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My Compass: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Love the Allfather with my whole Soul & being... >>>>>>>> Love my neighbor as myself >>>>>>>> As I judge other so too will I be judge >>>>>>>> Do No Harm >>>>>>>> Avoid murder, rape or enslavement of others >>>>>>>> Avoid being enslaved by possessions >>>>>>>> ~~~※☆※~~~ >>>>>>>> Jesus said "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all >>>>>>>> things are plain in the light of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not >>>>>>>> become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being >>>>>>>> uncovered." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين >>>>>>>> Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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