Hey Ron, I have and will continue to read Bo's posts with care.
Marsha At 01:45 PM 12/17/2007, you wrote: >Hey Marsha, >I'm not looking to make anyone happy per say, but understanding one >another is a start in the direction of a general MoQ understanding. As I >said before, Bo has some good points to consider when developing ones >personal philosophy in regard to MoQ. The questions of "can we conceive >outside of our cultural >Understandings?" and "when we think we are thinking trans-culturally, or >are we Merely rearranging our prejudices?" need to be viewed with the > Understanding of how culture and intellect are directly involved with >forming personal experience. > >Bo is not offering to change culture with a 5th level, in fact he is not >Proposing a fifth at all, he is proposing a cultural understanding of a >Trans-cultural concept. >MoQ 's levels clearly illustrate that social and intellectual are >separate >Levels thus making that system outside any particular society >specifically. >Thus "taking quality off the chess board". > >Now if all we experience and perceive is culturally derived, then how >the >Heck does one explain and accurately use this level system? >Bo's interpretation is by large Pirsigs interpretation only >Bo emphasizes this quality of understanding. >This shift is very important. >It in no way validates a particular belief but it highlights a general >understanding when viewing these concepts from a particular perpective. > >The Skutvik paradigm shift is a viable and useful concept to keep >In mind when interpreting the MoQ. And it's relation to SOM. Or >Any cultural understanding it is viewed from. >-Ron > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MarshaV >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:11 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect > > >Greetings Ron, > >Does Bo think that by adding a 5th MOQ level he's going to change our >culture? Good luck!!! > >The English language is a very immediate link with my culture. It is >structured on a s/o point-of-view. I must use it. But in spite of >that, I know full well that it doesn't reflect my experience. There >is definitely a mismatch happening, and it's become comfortable. > >I totally emphasize with Bo's frustration. He's uncomfortable with >the mismatch. Yet I feel no compelling reason to adopt the SOL to >make Bo feel comfortable. Pirsig's point-of-view suits me just fine. >To me the MOQ is a better world-view that more accurately describes >reality. I have never thought of the MOQ as 'just another >theory'. It is the best!!! But if something comes along that looks >better, I will consider it. > >Marsha > > > >At 12:09 PM 12/17/2007, you wrote: > >Dan and Marsha, > >If you would allow me to interrupt, I think I have an understanding on > >what > >Bo's SOL interpretation means. > >Bo equates SOM with the intellectual level by virtue of culture. SOL is > >MOQ > >Interpreted through SOM culture. > > > >Both of you are also correct by positing as Pirsig does, that SOM is an > >Intellectual pattern just as MOQ when one views the levels outside of > >culture. > >When viewed within the culture (as Bo maintains that's all one can ever > >do) > >SOM is the intellectual level and MOQ can only be used via it's >cultural > >distinctions. In this interpretation MoQ is realized through SOM > >cultural understanding. Since we as individuals are defined by the > >culture we > >live in, > >Our intellect is also defined by the culture we live in. > >Ideally, Pirsig generated the levels as a general evolutionary trans > >Cultural paradigm. > >But as Bo accurately points out, we can only ever view this paradigm > >through > >Our own cultural understandings. > >This is what makes his SOL interpretation a more accurate appraisal of > >MoQ concepts as it relates to our specific cultural understanding. > >Because we simply can not escape our own cultural influences > >Our cultural influences make up who we are and how we view reality. > >Try to speak outside of culture and it is meaningless, therefore > >Immediate experience is the closest culturally understood descriptor > >Of a trans cultural experience. > >And as that experience it possesses more human commonality than > >That of any intellectual cultural distinction. > > > >-Ron > > > > > > >>> Dan, > > >>> > > >>> What do you think of making the Intellectual Level subject/object > > >>> only, and creating a MOQ level above? > > >> > > >>Hi Marsha > > >>It doesn't jibe with the way I understand the MOQ. Like the SOM, the > > >>MOQ is a theory, an idea, a static quality intellectual pattern of > > >>value. That seems pretty simple. I see no reason to posit any > > >>further levels. It only complicates matters. > > > > > > That's the way I see it too. Maybe if Bo's problem can be better > > > understood, a better way to address it will surface. > > > >Hi Marsha > >I notice that I often become manic about certain ideas and worry them > >like an old dog worries a bone but I tend to grow tired after a while > >and like the old dog let go. I admire Bo's tenacity but have nothing > >more to add that would serve to change his mind. He's been gnawing this > >bone for nigh on 10 years now and I am still not sure who he hopes to > >convince save himself or what difference said convincing will make. His > >jaw has got to be tired though. > > > >Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
