Marsha, Understand that this is my understanding of it, and as Bo says of Pirsig, Perhaps even he doesn't see the significance of his own proposal. But That's how I see it. Pirsig alluded to it with cultural preconceptions But I don't think he came right out and hit us on the head with it. This is why things get funky when we try to place cultural understandings On MoQs general theories. Just like what the captain did to Lila, and Dusenberry to the Natives, we will do to The MoQ, if we're not careful.
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MarshaV Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 3:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect Hey Ron, I have and will continue to read Bo's posts with care. Marsha At 01:45 PM 12/17/2007, you wrote: >Hey Marsha, >I'm not looking to make anyone happy per say, but understanding one >another is a start in the direction of a general MoQ understanding. As I >said before, Bo has some good points to consider when developing ones >personal philosophy in regard to MoQ. The questions of "can we conceive >outside of our cultural >Understandings?" and "when we think we are thinking trans-culturally, or >are we Merely rearranging our prejudices?" need to be viewed with the > Understanding of how culture and intellect are directly involved with >forming personal experience. > >Bo is not offering to change culture with a 5th level, in fact he is not >Proposing a fifth at all, he is proposing a cultural understanding of a >Trans-cultural concept. >MoQ 's levels clearly illustrate that social and intellectual are >separate >Levels thus making that system outside any particular society >specifically. >Thus "taking quality off the chess board". > >Now if all we experience and perceive is culturally derived, then how >the >Heck does one explain and accurately use this level system? >Bo's interpretation is by large Pirsigs interpretation only >Bo emphasizes this quality of understanding. >This shift is very important. >It in no way validates a particular belief but it highlights a general >understanding when viewing these concepts from a particular perpective. > >The Skutvik paradigm shift is a viable and useful concept to keep >In mind when interpreting the MoQ. And it's relation to SOM. Or >Any cultural understanding it is viewed from. >-Ron > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MarshaV >Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 1:11 PM >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect > > >Greetings Ron, > >Does Bo think that by adding a 5th MOQ level he's going to change our >culture? Good luck!!! > >The English language is a very immediate link with my culture. It is >structured on a s/o point-of-view. I must use it. But in spite of >that, I know full well that it doesn't reflect my experience. There >is definitely a mismatch happening, and it's become comfortable. > >I totally emphasize with Bo's frustration. He's uncomfortable with >the mismatch. Yet I feel no compelling reason to adopt the SOL to >make Bo feel comfortable. Pirsig's point-of-view suits me just fine. >To me the MOQ is a better world-view that more accurately describes >reality. I have never thought of the MOQ as 'just another >theory'. It is the best!!! But if something comes along that looks >better, I will consider it. > >Marsha > > > >At 12:09 PM 12/17/2007, you wrote: > >Dan and Marsha, > >If you would allow me to interrupt, I think I have an understanding on > >what > >Bo's SOL interpretation means. > >Bo equates SOM with the intellectual level by virtue of culture. SOL is > >MOQ > >Interpreted through SOM culture. > > > >Both of you are also correct by positing as Pirsig does, that SOM is an > >Intellectual pattern just as MOQ when one views the levels outside of > >culture. > >When viewed within the culture (as Bo maintains that's all one can ever > >do) > >SOM is the intellectual level and MOQ can only be used via it's >cultural > >distinctions. In this interpretation MoQ is realized through SOM > >cultural understanding. Since we as individuals are defined by the > >culture we > >live in, > >Our intellect is also defined by the culture we live in. > >Ideally, Pirsig generated the levels as a general evolutionary trans > >Cultural paradigm. > >But as Bo accurately points out, we can only ever view this paradigm > >through > >Our own cultural understandings. > >This is what makes his SOL interpretation a more accurate appraisal of > >MoQ concepts as it relates to our specific cultural understanding. > >Because we simply can not escape our own cultural influences > >Our cultural influences make up who we are and how we view reality. > >Try to speak outside of culture and it is meaningless, therefore > >Immediate experience is the closest culturally understood descriptor > >Of a trans cultural experience. > >And as that experience it possesses more human commonality than > >That of any intellectual cultural distinction. > > > >-Ron > > > > > > >>> Dan, > > >>> > > >>> What do you think of making the Intellectual Level subject/object > > >>> only, and creating a MOQ level above? > > >> > > >>Hi Marsha > > >>It doesn't jibe with the way I understand the MOQ. Like the SOM, the > > >>MOQ is a theory, an idea, a static quality intellectual pattern of > > >>value. That seems pretty simple. I see no reason to posit any > > >>further levels. It only complicates matters. > > > > > > That's the way I see it too. Maybe if Bo's problem can be better > > > understood, a better way to address it will surface. > > > >Hi Marsha > >I notice that I often become manic about certain ideas and worry them > >like an old dog worries a bone but I tend to grow tired after a while > >and like the old dog let go. I admire Bo's tenacity but have nothing > >more to add that would serve to change his mind. He's been gnawing this > >bone for nigh on 10 years now and I am still not sure who he hopes to > >convince save himself or what difference said convincing will make. His > >jaw has got to be tired though. > > > >Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >Moq_Discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
