Hi Gav, I liked your post. I think man began his still unfolding journey through the SOM when merely social living proved inadequate to fulfill all his needs; he had problems to solve and so he learned to think better. Gradually he learnt to think about thinking. For all the greed and ego that comes out of the SOL way of thought nevertheless we are still reaping the benefits and there is still much more mileage for mankind in SOL. We are beginning to see the limitations though and increasingly man recognises the need to consider the effects of his inventions in the larger system. SOL dreamt up systems thinking and MoQ, but MoQ is not merely a new way of thinking, it necessarily involves awareness that the mind has a body and the body has an environment.
Jaynes pointed to the origins of the idea of God and that germ of an idea back some thousands of years eventually ripened into SOM. I don't think there is an end to knowledge and the utility of SOL, just that we need to see it's limitations and be more aware of some of it's negative consequences. -Peter On 17/12/2007, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > i think that the subject-object split underlies the > intellectual level. > > i think julian jaynes and bo would agree. > > the intellectual level is that level where the > individual is born - the individual is a subject, the > subject split from the world of objects. the problem > with SOM is that this split was presumed to be the > whole nature of reality, rather than a tool with which > to analogise it. > > the split is crucial. 'the fall' is this split. this > myth is about man's fall from paradisical unity > because he sought: THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE. result: > eviction. result: the journey of the self begins. > > the myth of the fall has to be seen from both > directions: yes it is a bummer to lose oneness with > all, with god, but it is necessary if we are to become > gods ourselves, which is the point of human evolution. > > the intellect is a powerful tool facilitates this > spiritual growth. it leads first into separation - the > split - as the child (after age 7 i believe) becomes > individuated. from here the ego begins to assume > control. > > after the child has become a fully individuated adult > the intellect begins to lead him back to unity, to a > resolution of the split. to a diminution of the ego. > the MOQ is a great example of the intellect doing > this. > > intellect points the way - takes us the the point of > departure....and the beginning of wholeness, unity > once more, but this time *conscious* of our own > godhood, our identity with the cosmos. > > so bo is right, the subject/object split is > inseparable from the intellectual level. it gave rise > to it. even when we are thinking in MOQ terms we are > still subjects thinking in terms of objects. the > crucial difference is that *we are now aware of this*. > > this awareness means that the we can forget about > reaching absolute truth....no one is absolutely right > or wrong...no idea is absolutely right or wrong. we > are always in the realm of relativity, > context-dependence at the intellectual level. the > absolute is *experienced* pre-intellectually; it is > unequivocal. > > the intellect is the key that opens the door to the > experience of one's own godhood or buddha nature. > > > > --- Dan Glover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:20:51 -0500 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect > > > > > > At 03:15 PM 12/16/2007, you wrote: > > > > > >>Hello everyone > > >> > > >>> Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 14:41:11 -0500 > > >>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >>> Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Dan, > > >>> > > >>> What do you think of making the Intellectual > > Level subject/object > > >>> only, and creating a MOQ level above? > > >> > > >>Hi Marsha > > >>It doesn't jibe with the way I understand the MOQ. > > Like the SOM, the > > >>MOQ is a theory, an idea, a static quality > > intellectual pattern of > > >>value. That seems pretty simple. I see no reason > > to posit any > > >>further levels. It only complicates matters. > > >> > > >>Thank you, > > >> > > >>Dan > > > > > > Thanks Dan, > > > > > > That's the way I see it too. Maybe if Bo's problem > > can be better > > > understood, a better way to address it will > > surface. > > > > Hi Marsha > > I notice that I often become manic about certain > > ideas and worry them like an old dog worries a bone > > but I tend to grow tired after a while and like the > > old dog let go. I admire Bo's tenacity but have > > nothing more to add that would serve to change his > > mind. He's been gnawing this bone for nigh on 10 > > years now and I am still not sure who he hopes to > > convince save himself or what difference said > > convincing will make. His jaw has got to be tired > > though. > > > > Dan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > > Make the switch to the world's best email. Get the new Yahoo!7 Mail > now. www.yahoo7.com.au/worldsbestemail > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
