dmb said: ...the attempt to place the MOQ in some realm beyond intellect is just really, really dumb. I think a person would have to ignore or misunderstand pragmatism, radical empiricism, philosophical mysticism and dozens of direct statements from Pirsig in order to entertain such a notion. ...Its just impossible nonsense.
Ron replied: ...No doubt it is by Radical empiricism and Pragmatism that MoQ must operate within the cultural context. To gain acceptance it must prove useful. Otherwise it remains a mystical allusion, wouldn't you say? dmb says: Firstly, I'd say that it is impossible to avoid operating with the cultural context. We simply have no choice about that. Pragmatism and radical empiricism is mainstream American philosophy so that, yes, it is an excellent way to make the MOQ "acceptable". This alignment with James and Dewey is also what makes the mysticism work in an "acceptable" way. There is nothing supernatural or faith-based about this philosophical mysticism. It is based on direct everyday experience. But I fail to see how any of this is related to my complaint about the MOQ existing on some "meta-level". The idea that we have to invent a whole new level of reality in order to make a place for Pirsig's ideas is nonsense. There are good ideas, bad ideas, old ideas and new ideas. Why should this be a problem? Bodvar rejects the idea that anybody except Pirsig has ever rejected SOM but I know that this simply isn't true. James and Dewey are the most relevant examples. The mystics have been saying so for a couple dozen centuries. Bo also rejects mysticism as new age junk, but I know that this is not true either. (Although there certainly is such a thing as new age junk.) Bo thinks the MOQ is not an intellectual description of reality but rather reality itself, but this is explicitly denied by Pirsig many times. This is what I mean when I say he's lightyears away from the MOQ. He rejects DQ as the mystical reality, he rejects the idea that alternatives to SOM can exists without the MOQ, he rejects the definition of the intellectual level and the idea that there are only four levels of static quality. I ask you in all seriousness, what the heck is left after all that rejection? Nothing except the MOB (the metaphysics of Bodvar). No part of it makes any sense to me. Thanks. _________________________________________________________________ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
