> SA previously:? Ian thought it was interesting. > > s: But you are suggesting there is a 'secret' > interest? I don't know why you should think there is a > secret interest?
SA:? Because it's not obvious.? At least to me it's not. squonk: There is no secret interest. Simple as that. ? > Squonk previously: > > There is no secret interest for the following reason: > I don't know what the outcome of the experiment may > be.? This is the point: The point of experimentation is to > > reveal something new. > > That?a?thought experiment?should be?ridiculed or > dismissed on the grounds that we already know its outcome seems > > rather arrogant to me. > SA previously:? We can disagree without "arrogance" having > to be thrown around.? I thought > the experiment to be rather cruel.? Who would be the test > subjects? > s: I am not sure if we in fact do disagree SA? > We haven't engaged the experiment yet. > Who is the victim if individual brains persist in a state > of maximum DQ? > Isn't this the precise state Zen masters encourage? SA:? Why do you have "?", question marks all over the place in your posts?? I don't see these in any other posts. ???? Vat:? a large tank or tube ???? Nope, don't think this has anything to do with Zen.? Does this vat connect to the world?? Thus why I brought up "alienation". squonk: I don't know about the ?'s. Re. Zen and DQ. I don't claim to be an expert on Zen, so please forgive me if i don't know what i'm talking about. I thought immediate experience of reality was?the goal of Zen teaching. I thought DQ was the primary experience of the moq, and so equated the two via DQ. If 'brains in vats' or anything like it doesn't achieve primary experience then the experiment doesn't help. I didn't use that term, but an moq description involving sq and DQ. > SA previously: > I'm sure you must know some history.? People have done all kinds of > tests in the name of > science or curiosity, but are they moral? > s: You are free to express your view on the matter. > Remember we are dealing with a thought experiment, so > unless the experiment is realised no one is going to get > hurt by what ever moral imperative you bring to the > situation. > One could argue that to imagine experimentation is a > precursor to realisation sooner or later? > Therefore, it may be possible to discourage certain morally > objectionable thought experiments? > In this case we have thought police censorship. SA:? Yeah, figured this was lurking somewhere, but if this was your "secert" message, your underlying intention for bringing this up, well, I'm not taken by the bit. squonk: There isn't a secret message, so it wasn't. SA: I could care less about getting into a censorship discussion, sorry, but this seems to be your interest, not mine. squonk: It isn't my interest. I don't know what the experiment may throw up, but my hope was that it may have thrown something up regarding sq and DQ. It may not go anywhere at all. It is not about censorship. You've spent all your time going on about everything other than that which i hoped you may have helped to provide stimulating ideas. It's a shame. SA: I'm not trying to bring this "censorship" issue up at all, but it seems you might be. squonk: Moral outrage is a form of censorship isn't it? And the moq is centred on morals, so anyone discussing the moq is?dealing with?this anyway: social codes censor biological codes, intellectual codes censor social codes, etc. If you, 'could care less about getting into a censorship discussion' then i would avoid discussing the moq SA. > SA previously: > I know of one test in which babies > were not touched by other humans except to give them > basics, such as change the > diapers, feed, and provide warmth, but without human touch, > care, the babies > either died or developed retardation diseases.? Well, I > guess now we know. > > s: This wasn't a thought experiment by the sounds of > it. SA:? Sure wasn't.? So, what's the thought behind your experiment? squonk: I'm not sure. It's open. It's fishing. Jump in and let's see. We've spent allot of time looking for a NO FISHING sign. > SA previously:? Are you advocating putting brains in vats?? Would they > come from stem cell research, newborns, or what? > s: Have you chosen not to answer my question regarding > alienation being degenerative in the context of the thought > experiment SA? SA:? I brought it up above on this post.? Sorry it took so long. squonk: OK. The world is created in our own culture and it can be changed. Squonk: > Re. brains in vats: Ian introduced this phrase. I rather > wish he had not, but i understand why he may have done. SA:? Hmmm, so this leads in Ian in ways I didn't know. squonk: Ian is into his brains in vats stuff i suppose, and he's welcome to it. Squonk: > The mechanics is not all that relevant, because what the > experiment is concerned with is the 'blank slate' a > biological Human brain provides. > To get bogged down in the nitty gritty of how and why and > do you mind if you don'ts is trivial; let's begin > with a blank slate human brain. Let us refer to this blank > slate as a group of static biological patterns. > We may have reason to believe that this state of static > biological patterns has direct access to DQ unmediated by > additional social and intellectual static patterns, or, to > use David's term, a 'mind'. > It has been argued that babies experience the same Zen > state that Zen masters prescribe. > It has been argued that this state is that which many > people try to reach when they are being creative, or use > substances to demolish static patterns of the mind. > If a mind can choose to do this, and if that choice has a > metaphysical basis, then the thought experiment?enquires if > doing it on a large scale is a moral imperative??(see the > thought experiment itself). SA:? It's the vats, the real time application, the industrial scale 'breeding', and where the brains would come from - that's what I question.? I understand your mosying around with a thought-experiment, but do you want to do anything? SA squonk: Social and intellectual patterns are breed in real time applications and the 'vat' used is called Culture. squonk. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
