The first question is: Have you Marsha, ever considered the GOOD effects of overcoming religious thinking in your intellectual development?
The second is related: Whether or not the passing on of this pattern to our children is "giving them the answer" without letting them work it out for themselves and thus a sort of intellectual crippling with unforseen results? I admit its a tricky question but no psychological manipulation is intended. Just a simply enquiry into social and intellectual values, is all. Love, John On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > John, > > What is the question? > > > > Marsha > > > > > > On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:08 AM, John Carl wrote: > > > Marsha, > > > > When you say, "This is an attempt at psychological manipulation," > > > > to which pattern of words are you refering? > > > > Yours? > > > > Or mine? > > > > Or all of ours? > > > > you me and dmb makes three. > > > > As for me, I wasn't searching for "adults" to respond; I was asking YOU! > > > > Silly Marsha, > > > > Tricks are for kids. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:54 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> John, > >> > >> This is an attempt at psychological manipulation, and so was suggesting > >> that god was something to intellectually push against, and so was > looking > >> for adults to respond, and so was dmb-dmbs "Unbelievable.". Do you > >> understand 'pattern'? > >> > >> I need to be silly. > >> > >> > >> marsha, > >> the undone > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:44 AM, John Carl wrote: > >> > >>> Marsha, you don't wish to answer? Even though I'm not really asking a > >>> question about "the god pattern" but the social pattern as observed in > >> the > >>> light of overcoming the god pattern? > >>> > >>> Hmmmm... > >>> > >>> IN-teresting... > >>> > >>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:23 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Hi John, > >>>> > >>>> I really appreciate your open-mindedness, but I have nothing to > >>>> say about the god-pattern. I really have nothing to say, and > >>>> bringing Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny into the discussion > >>>> will not inspire me to change my mind. I am sorry to say no to > >>>> you. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Marsha > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 4:43 PM, John Carl wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Marsha, > >>>>> > >>>>> You need no argumentation to convince at least me, that Buddhism used > >>>> logic > >>>>> and purely rational philosophical methods to achieve realizations > which > >>>> are > >>>>> highly advanced, even today. > >>>>> > >>>>> The Buddha was not only an amazing thinker and philosopher, but a > >> superb > >>>>> teacher as well and his students built on his insights to an > >> astoundingly > >>>>> wonderful degree. I only have had a small exposure to their > teaching, > >> a > >>>>> compilation of the ancient antecedents of zen, called chan where it > was > >>>>> born, but that small exposure was enough to make me realize the > >> extremely > >>>>> high quality of intellectual attainment in this line of thinking. > What > >> a > >>>>> gift for the world! > >>>>> > >>>>> The book was called "The Roaring Stream" and its poetry and power > have > >>>> left > >>>>> me wanting more. Another library book to order from ebay. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> But regardless of this high quality intellectual thinking at the > heart > >> of > >>>>> the east, the area under Buddha's purview seems somewhat lacking in > >>>>> comparison to the Christianity-dominated west. > >>>>> > >>>>> I believe this ties in to a dialogue I wanted to have with you, that > I > >>>> tried > >>>>> to raise with you on an earlier thread, but which I never found your > >>>> answer. > >>>>> > >>>>> The dialogue concerns whether it is better for society to have an > idea > >> of > >>>>> God to struggle against and overcome, or no idea of God at all in the > >>>> first > >>>>> place. My analogy centered on whether we should rid our children of > >> such > >>>>> ideas as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and just give them the > >>>> straight > >>>>> facts from birth... > >>>>> > >>>>> Or, whether perhaps, there is an intellectual strength to be gained > >> from > >>>>> attaining to atheism on your own, bucking your parental authority, > >>>> bucking > >>>>> social authority, bucking God Himself! in order to assert your own > >>>>> intellectual being. > >>>>> > >>>>> See, I see that as a process. A way of strengthening and in fact > >>>> creating > >>>>> an intellectual "muscle" that wouldn't exist unless it had something > as > >>>> big > >>>>> as God to push against. And that future generations are deprived of > >> this > >>>>> musclular selfdom, by our egoistic assertions of subjective > >> enlightenment > >>>> as > >>>>> absolute. > >>>>> > >>>>> Is kinda what I wondered if you'd ever thought about... > >>>>> > >>>>> yours ever, > >>>>> > >>>>> John > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 1:12 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To recap why I think Buddhism cannot be used as an exception to > >>>>>> the Intellectual Level being SOM, I offer these to quotes that > >> indicate > >>>>>> that Buddhism used logic and the scientific method for an objective > >>>>>> study of 'Mind'. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "... So at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the > Buddha's > >>>>>> path, > >>>>>> observation plays an extremely important role. This is similar to > the > >>>> role > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> objective observation plays in the scientific tradition which > teaches > >>>> that > >>>>>> when > >>>>>> we observe a problem we first formulate a general theory followed by > >>>>>> specific > >>>>>> hypothesis. We find the same thing happening in the teaching of the > >> Four > >>>>>> Noble Truths and here the general theory is that all things have a > >>>> cause, > >>>>>> and the specific hypothesis is that the causes of suffering are > >> craving > >>>> and > >>>>>> ignorance." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> " Experience in Buddhism is comprised of two components - the > >>>> objective > >>>>>> component and the subjective component. In other works, the things > >>>> around > >>>>>> us and we the perceivers. Buddhism is noted for its analytical > method > >>>> in > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> area of philosophy and psychology. What we mean by this is that the > >>>> Buddha > >>>>>> analyzes experience into various elements, the most basic of these > >> being > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> five Skandhas or aggregates - form, feeling, perception, mental > >>>> formation > >>>>>> or > >>>>>> volition and consciousness. The five aggregates in turn can be > >>>> analyzed > >>>>>> into the eighteen elements (Dhatus) and we have a still more > elaborate > >>>>>> analysis in terms of seventy two elements. This method is > analytical > >>>>>> as it breaks up things. We are not satisfied with a vague notion of > >>>>>> experience, > >>>>>> but we analyze it, we probe it, we break it down into its component > >>>> parts > >>>>>> like > >>>>>> we break down the chariot into the wheels, the axle and so on. And > we > >>>> do > >>>>>> this in order to get an idea how things work. When we see for > instance > >> a > >>>>>> flower, or hear a piece of music, or meet a friend, all these > >>>> experiences > >>>>>> arise as a result of components. This is what is called the > >> analytical > >>>>>> approach. > >>>>>> And again this analytical approach is not at all strange to modern > >>>> science > >>>>>> and > >>>>>> philosophy." > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (Peter D. Santina, 'Fundamentals of Buddhism',BAUS) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ___ > >> > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > >> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
