On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:39 AM, John Carl wrote:
> The first question is:
>
> Have you Marsha, ever considered the GOOD effects of
> overcoming religious thinking in your intellectual development?
Consider? Do you mean systematically, like reading the Great Books?
No, I've never formally considered my intellectual development.
> The second is related:
>
> Whether or not the passing on of this pattern to our children is "giving
> them the answer" without letting them work it out for themselves and thus a
> sort of intellectual crippling with unforseen results?
"The social values are right only if the individual values are right.
The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and
head and hands, and then work outward from there. Other
people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind.
I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what
I have to say has more lasting value."
(ZMM, Chapter 25)
> I admit its a tricky question but no psychological manipulation is
> intended.
Maybe you think I'll be more, um, um, receptive?
> Just a simply enquiry into social and intellectual values, is all.
>
> Love,
Am I suppose to be able to resist love?
> John
Marsha
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 8:20 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> John,
>>
>> What is the question?
>>
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 11:08 AM, John Carl wrote:
>>
>>> Marsha,
>>>
>>> When you say, "This is an attempt at psychological manipulation,"
>>>
>>> to which pattern of words are you refering?
>>>
>>> Yours?
>>>
>>> Or mine?
>>>
>>> Or all of ours?
>>>
>>> you me and dmb makes three.
>>>
>>> As for me, I wasn't searching for "adults" to respond; I was asking YOU!
>>>
>>> Silly Marsha,
>>>
>>> Tricks are for kids.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 7:54 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> This is an attempt at psychological manipulation, and so was suggesting
>>>> that god was something to intellectually push against, and so was
>> looking
>>>> for adults to respond, and so was dmb-dmbs "Unbelievable.". Do you
>>>> understand 'pattern'?
>>>>
>>>> I need to be silly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> marsha,
>>>> the undone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Apr 28, 2010, at 10:44 AM, John Carl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marsha, you don't wish to answer? Even though I'm not really asking a
>>>>> question about "the god pattern" but the social pattern as observed in
>>>> the
>>>>> light of overcoming the god pattern?
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmmm...
>>>>>
>>>>> IN-teresting...
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 2:23 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I really appreciate your open-mindedness, but I have nothing to
>>>>>> say about the god-pattern. I really have nothing to say, and
>>>>>> bringing Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny into the discussion
>>>>>> will not inspire me to change my mind. I am sorry to say no to
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Apr 27, 2010, at 4:43 PM, John Carl wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You need no argumentation to convince at least me, that Buddhism used
>>>>>> logic
>>>>>>> and purely rational philosophical methods to achieve realizations
>> which
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> highly advanced, even today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Buddha was not only an amazing thinker and philosopher, but a
>>>> superb
>>>>>>> teacher as well and his students built on his insights to an
>>>> astoundingly
>>>>>>> wonderful degree. I only have had a small exposure to their
>> teaching,
>>>> a
>>>>>>> compilation of the ancient antecedents of zen, called chan where it
>> was
>>>>>>> born, but that small exposure was enough to make me realize the
>>>> extremely
>>>>>>> high quality of intellectual attainment in this line of thinking.
>> What
>>>> a
>>>>>>> gift for the world!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The book was called "The Roaring Stream" and its poetry and power
>> have
>>>>>> left
>>>>>>> me wanting more. Another library book to order from ebay.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But regardless of this high quality intellectual thinking at the
>> heart
>>>> of
>>>>>>> the east, the area under Buddha's purview seems somewhat lacking in
>>>>>>> comparison to the Christianity-dominated west.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I believe this ties in to a dialogue I wanted to have with you, that
>> I
>>>>>> tried
>>>>>>> to raise with you on an earlier thread, but which I never found your
>>>>>> answer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The dialogue concerns whether it is better for society to have an
>> idea
>>>> of
>>>>>>> God to struggle against and overcome, or no idea of God at all in the
>>>>>> first
>>>>>>> place. My analogy centered on whether we should rid our children of
>>>> such
>>>>>>> ideas as Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, and just give them the
>>>>>> straight
>>>>>>> facts from birth...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or, whether perhaps, there is an intellectual strength to be gained
>>>> from
>>>>>>> attaining to atheism on your own, bucking your parental authority,
>>>>>> bucking
>>>>>>> social authority, bucking God Himself! in order to assert your own
>>>>>>> intellectual being.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See, I see that as a process. A way of strengthening and in fact
>>>>>> creating
>>>>>>> an intellectual "muscle" that wouldn't exist unless it had something
>> as
>>>>>> big
>>>>>>> as God to push against. And that future generations are deprived of
>>>> this
>>>>>>> musclular selfdom, by our egoistic assertions of subjective
>>>> enlightenment
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> absolute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is kinda what I wondered if you'd ever thought about...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> yours ever,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 1:12 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To recap why I think Buddhism cannot be used as an exception to
>>>>>>>> the Intellectual Level being SOM, I offer these to quotes that
>>>> indicate
>>>>>>>> that Buddhism used logic and the scientific method for an objective
>>>>>>>> study of 'Mind'.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "... So at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the
>> Buddha's
>>>>>>>> path,
>>>>>>>> observation plays an extremely important role. This is similar to
>> the
>>>>>> role
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> objective observation plays in the scientific tradition which
>> teaches
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> we observe a problem we first formulate a general theory followed by
>>>>>>>> specific
>>>>>>>> hypothesis. We find the same thing happening in the teaching of the
>>>> Four
>>>>>>>> Noble Truths and here the general theory is that all things have a
>>>>>> cause,
>>>>>>>> and the specific hypothesis is that the causes of suffering are
>>>> craving
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> ignorance."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> " Experience in Buddhism is comprised of two components - the
>>>>>> objective
>>>>>>>> component and the subjective component. In other works, the things
>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> us and we the perceivers. Buddhism is noted for its analytical
>> method
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> area of philosophy and psychology. What we mean by this is that the
>>>>>> Buddha
>>>>>>>> analyzes experience into various elements, the most basic of these
>>>> being
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> five Skandhas or aggregates - form, feeling, perception, mental
>>>>>> formation
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> volition and consciousness. The five aggregates in turn can be
>>>>>> analyzed
>>>>>>>> into the eighteen elements (Dhatus) and we have a still more
>> elaborate
>>>>>>>> analysis in terms of seventy two elements. This method is
>> analytical
>>>>>>>> as it breaks up things. We are not satisfied with a vague notion of
>>>>>>>> experience,
>>>>>>>> but we analyze it, we probe it, we break it down into its component
>>>>>> parts
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> we break down the chariot into the wheels, the axle and so on. And
>> we
>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> this in order to get an idea how things work. When we see for
>> instance
>>>> a
>>>>>>>> flower, or hear a piece of music, or meet a friend, all these
>>>>>> experiences
>>>>>>>> arise as a result of components. This is what is called the
>>>> analytical
>>>>>>>> approach.
>>>>>>>> And again this analytical approach is not at all strange to modern
>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> philosophy."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (Peter D. Santina, 'Fundamentals of Buddhism',BAUS)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ___
>>>>
>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>>> Archives:
>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>>
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
___
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org/md/archives.html
