:-)
On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:35 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Ian, > > Well, I wouldn't want anyone to think my interest was just > to disagree with dmb. I'll go fishing and let you big boys > deal with the Will. > > > Marsha > > > > On Aug 2, 2011, at 8:25 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > >> Marsha, >> Yes, >> Ian >> >> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 1:23 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Ian, >>> >>> Can you explain how free-will IS relevant with the MOQ? >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Aug 2, 2011, at 8:00 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: >>> >>>> Steve, dmb >>>> >>>> I appreciate the free-will vs determinism (in the MoQ context) debate >>>> here is overlaid with the meta-argument about whose behaviour >>>> "maintaining a weak position" exasperates who and why ... etc. But on >>>> the core point here: >>>> >>>> Steve, I side with DMB. >>>> I can't buy your a-determinism / a-free-willist stance. >>>> >>>> Free-will is not irrelevant to morals in the MoQ context. >>>> >>>> By taking the a-stance I believe you are just denying particular >>>> definitions of free-will and/or determinism. >>>> >>>> Yes, the primary DQ/sq split changes our descriptions / explnations of >>>> what is going on, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a >>>> relationship between will chosen by conscious thought being part of >>>> (related to) morality - in the socio-intellectual levels of the MoQ. >>>> (And it gives us an entirely new description in the physio-bio >>>> levels.) >>>> >>>> If you deny free-will and determinism concepts outright, surely you >>>> just re-invite a MoQish description of the (as patterns rather than >>>> concepts perhaps) by another name. At the common sense level, >>>> (Buddhist "as if" level) the relationship is still there ? >>>> >>>> Sorry if I missed your underlying point, but it is getting hard to discern. >>>> I believed from earlier exchanges we were reasonably well aligned that >>>> free-will and determinism need not be in conflict, if one took an >>>> enlightened - balanced - MoQish view ? >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Steven Peterson >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Hi dmb, >>>>> >>>>>> Steve said:... I am saying that the term "free will" has a usage in the >>>>>> English language, and the MOQ's response to the question of freedom is >>>>>> incompatible with this everyday usage. ... and my point is that the >>>>>> MOQ's answer is to accept neither free will or determinism in their >>>>>> usual sense and I'm not talking about underlying metaphysical >>>>>> assumptions but rather the common ways that the term "free will" gets >>>>>> deployed in sentences. ...To deny free will is to deny the uncaused >>>>>> causer (see also Pirsig's dissolution of the mind-body problem). To deny >>>>>> determinism is to deny the mechanistic universe. There is nothing >>>>>> incompatible with doing both. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> dmb says: >>>>>> Well, as I see it, you are maintaining a very weak position in the face >>>>>> of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. >>>> [Snip] >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
