Steve, dmb I appreciate the free-will vs determinism (in the MoQ context) debate here is overlaid with the meta-argument about whose behaviour "maintaining a weak position" exasperates who and why ... etc. But on the core point here:
Steve, I side with DMB. I can't buy your a-determinism / a-free-willist stance. Free-will is not irrelevant to morals in the MoQ context. By taking the a-stance I believe you are just denying particular definitions of free-will and/or determinism. Yes, the primary DQ/sq split changes our descriptions / explnations of what is going on, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a relationship between will chosen by conscious thought being part of (related to) morality - in the socio-intellectual levels of the MoQ. (And it gives us an entirely new description in the physio-bio levels.) If you deny free-will and determinism concepts outright, surely you just re-invite a MoQish description of the (as patterns rather than concepts perhaps) by another name. At the common sense level, (Buddhist "as if" level) the relationship is still there ? Sorry if I missed your underlying point, but it is getting hard to discern. I believed from earlier exchanges we were reasonably well aligned that free-will and determinism need not be in conflict, if one took an enlightened - balanced - MoQish view ? Ian On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Steven Peterson <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi dmb, > >> Steve said:... I am saying that the term "free will" has a usage in the >> English language, and the MOQ's response to the question of freedom is >> incompatible with this everyday usage. ... and my point is that the MOQ's >> answer is to accept neither free will or determinism in their usual sense >> and I'm not talking about underlying metaphysical assumptions but rather the >> common ways that the term "free will" gets deployed in sentences. ...To >> deny free will is to deny the uncaused causer (see also Pirsig's dissolution >> of the mind-body problem). To deny determinism is to deny the mechanistic >> universe. There is nothing incompatible with doing both. >> >> >> dmb says: >> Well, as I see it, you are maintaining a very weak position in the face of >> overwhelming evidence to the contrary. [Snip] Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
