On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:51 AM, david buchanan <[email protected]> wrote: > > Steve said: > Where I disagree with dmb is in that I think the MOQ reformulation of the > question of freedom DOES significantly alter the basic definitions of free > will and determinism. The MOQ rejects both horns of the traditional dilemma > and reformulates the problem in a way that is incompatible with the > traditional formulation rather than being some middle ground or saying that > both sides are partially right. ...The only similarity is that we have > freedom on one side and constraint on the other. ..."To the extent that one's > behavior is controlled by static patterns of quality it is without choice. > But to the extent that one follows Dynamic Quality, which is undefinable, > one's behavior is free." > > dmb says: > > I think your explanation is confused. The MOQ's reformulation says one's > behavior is CONTROLLED to some extent. The meaning of Pirsig sentence is > going to be exactly the same if we replace "controlled" with "determined". > The same is true for Pirsig's second sentence. The MOQ denies the Cartesian > self AND also asserts that one's behavior is free to some extent.
Steve: Agreed. dmb: But clearly, you are insisting that one particular ANSWER to the question of free will and determinism forever defines the QUESTION of whether human action is free or determined. Steve: No, I'm not forever defining freedom, I am saying that the term "free will" has a usage in the English language, and the MOQ's response to the question of freedom is incompatible with this everyday usage. dmb: I mean, don't we all understand that the MOQ's reformulation is first and foremost predicated on a rejection of SOM. And doesn't that necessarily mean that the "one" who is free to some and extent and controlled to some extent is NOT an uncaused causer and that "one" is not determined by the mechanical laws of cause and effect? Doesn't that mean we are talking about the extent to which the MOQ's self is free or controlled? Steve: Yes, and my point is that the MOQ's answer is to accept neither free will or determinism in their usual sense and I'm not talking about underlying metaphysical assumptions but rather the common ways that the term "free will" gets deployed in sentences. > Steve said: > To deny free will is to deny the uncaused causer (see also Pirsig's > dissolution of the mind-body problem). To deny determinism is to deny the > mechanistic universe. There is nothing incompatible with doing both. > > > dmb says: > There is a good example. You've equated free will with an uncaused causer and > equated determinism with a mechanistic universe. But, again, we are talking > about freedom and control as it relates to the MOQ's self , as it relates to > "one's behavior" in a universe that is value all the way down. I mean, we are > still talking about the extent to which PEOPLE are free to act as they will > and the extent to which our actions are determined. Steve: Here is where you err. If the MOQ described the extent that "people are free to act as they will" then we would be talking about a compatible concept that could reasonably be described with the same terminology. But the MOQ does NOT associate freedom with the capacity to act as they will. It associates freedom with John Sutherland grooving on the drums _without_ thinking--WITHOUT consciously willing his actions. dmb: > The only similarity is that we have freedom on one side and constraint on the > other? What other similarity could we possibly hope for? Steve: The similarity needed to enable us to deploy the MOQ version of the term "free will" in sentences in the usual ways we do with the tradition version of free will is the notion of freedom as the ability to consciously will choices. But that is NOT what Pirsig can mean in associating freedom with DQ. In other words, in the MOQ, there is freedom, but there isn't free will. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
