Hi Ian, Ian said: > Steve, I side with DMB. > I can't buy your a-determinism / a-free-willist stance. > > Free-will is not irrelevant to morals in the MoQ context.
Steve: That depends on what you mean by "free will." If you mean DQ, then obviously it is very relevant. Ian: > By taking the a-stance I believe you are just denying particular > definitions of free-will and/or determinism. Steve: Of course that's what I'm doing. I don't deny all _possible_ definitions of _any_ term. That would be absurd. What am I denying is the common usages--what pretty much everyone means by the terms. Ian: > Sorry if I missed your underlying point, but it is getting hard to discern. > I believed from earlier exchanges we were reasonably well aligned that > free-will and determinism need not be in conflict, if one took an > enlightened - balanced - MoQish view ? Steve: I think you have missed my point. Let's start here: what do _you_ mean by free will? Let's also acknowledge that Pirsig's statement that to the extent we follow Dynamic Quality we are free is a mere tautology like "survival of the fittest" amounting to saying "to the extent we are controlled by static patterns of value we are controlled by static patterns of value, and to the extent we are not controlled by static patterns we are not controlled by static patterns." It doesn't tell us anything about the power to choose freely in order to control our own destiny and anything about _how_ free that power is if we even have it. It doesn't answer any of the usual questions that people want to know in looking for support for the notion of free will. Instead of associating freedom with conscious willing in order to _take control_ as in the usual sense of "free will," it associates freedom with _letting go_. Instead of associating this freedom with a power of conscious decision making, the MOQ version of freedom as DQ is pre-intellectual and unselfconscious. My point is that that is pretty much the _opposite_ of what is usually meant by free will. Best, Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
