Hi Platt Keeping it short:
Tides are a static pattern, "Sperarated by derivative order" Means one's derived from the other, fundamentally separate in terms of pattern but identical in terms of constituent., The biological level elements of what an animal is are static patterns, any cultual level elements are also static patterns, and and so on into more complex animals. Patterns at all levels are patterns in DQ. I agree with you entirely but so what - so is everything else. On motives - My usage of the word is sloppy, by motive I mean that where a preference expressed at a choice point in the direction of "good", that "good" is the motive. The reason it happens in one direction rather than another is because it has the "motive" to be better. This isn't a static pattern as we are unable to define what that "good" is. (Must be a more succinct way to say that) Lila - It sets cultural and intellectual patterns above biological ones, then quite separately it assigns humans to the first category and other animals to the second. Its the second bit that I'm saying is wrong, the structure and relative moralities are the fundamental bit and can be preserved wherever it is that you decice a particular entity resides. Jos > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 22 May 2007 14:36 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Animals and Dynamic Quality > > > Quoting "Laycock, Jos (OSPT)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > Hi Platt > > I'd say everything that happens IS DQ, and that all > "things" ARE experience. > > If something is a static pattern in "something else" then > it's constituent > > material IS that "something else". A eddy in water is still water. > > When the tide goes out is that DQ? > > > Static patterns change into new static patterns and that > isn't a "response to DQ" > > it IS DQ. > > An animal is a static pattern in dynamic quality - the > divide between static and > > dynamic is one of derivative order, its all the same stuff. > > By "derivative" you mean? > > > > A SOM approach to an animal is to say either it has mind > separate from its matter, > > or that it's all matter. You're mapping SOM onto MOQ (per > Pirsig's own model > > (SODV)) and assigning biological SQ to within the matter > realm. To be explicit you > > seem to say: Humans are "mind" and "matter" (SQ meets DQ) > animals are all "matter" > > (SQ). You can quite happily have that view within the MOQ, > but as I see it, it's > > not an MOQ question in the first place - Debating the > degree to which an animal > > exerts free will is the same discussion in a scientific > setting as it is in a > > metaphysical one, and neither provides an answer. > > Don't follow you. What I am saying, with few exceptions, is > that animals are > static patterns of value. > > > Proper zealous application of a(neo)MOQ should (IMO) > exclude all this. > > DQ being synonymous with experience/awareness, any static > pattern written in it > > cannot be divorced from it. No dividing lines. > > An animal, (like a rock and like a human) does stuff, and > it "does stuff" because > > it has unknown but deonstrably real motives, these may be > very simple, but; a > > preference/ is a preference/ is a probability/ is a value. > > The DQ is what the animal is, so it can't help but have > direction, alongside this > > there is the pattern that describes it's form and its > behaviours but these are the > > "hows" not the "whys". > > Mechanisitic explantions of behaviours lead to infinite > regress, you never get to > > a motive, DQ solves that but only if its reach is extended > to (exhaustively) all > > things. > > Motives can be and often are static patterns of value, like > the motive to survive. > > > Lila sets humans apart 'cos its just wrong. > > The MOQ places humans morally superior to biological and > inorganic patterns, but > recognizes that without those patterns humans could not have > evolved nor continue > to exist. I see nothing wrong about that. > > Platt > > > > ------------------------------------------------- > This mail sent through IMP: http://horde.org/imp/ > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the > Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by > Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM > Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please > call your organisations IT Helpdesk. > Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, > monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. > > > This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the > attention of the addressee(s). Its unauthorised use, > disclosure, storage or copying is not permitted. 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