On Tues 29 May 2007 9:10:03 AM Ron writes to everyone: <Ron>
Hello, Hope eveyone had an enjoyable and safe holiday. The threads I've read through the weekend have lead me to comment and query fundemental aspects of our philosophies. My thoughts: Pirsigs value, Wilburs Holons, Topos (set) theory all share the same concept and are described simularly. That all reality is composed of interrelated forms of energy. The perception of this concept manifests as subject object metaphysics. The use of this concept is to form an accurate model in which to observe and predict possibility and probability. To use this concept to further any other concept other than an accurate model for observation is to follow perception not increase accurate observation. In my opinion to quarrel about god,essence,spirit, life force,quality, or betterness, to speculate that it is driven,pulled,evolves or drawn to a conclusion or goal is using that model to further a perception of a subject/object universe. Subject/object perception can not be "dropped" like a unstylish hand bag. Anyone who thinks they do not percieve in terms of subjects and objects is fooling themselves. To increase the accuracy of observation is to increase the accuracy of value Perception. Because we percieve in terms of subjects and objects, I speculate that definitive understanding of ultimate reality is unachieveable and will Be forever lost in subjective perception. This is the pitfall . Quality is perception, to give this name any meaning beyond this or to speak of anything before perception is an exercise in unknowable speculation. Hi Ron and All, <Joe> I do not see that you have moved the dialogue along. Esoteric writing speaks of a mechanical or conscious perception of reality. Is there a possibility of mechanical evolution and conscious evolution? IMO Pirsig’s objection to ‘objectivity’ is that value is ignored. Value is the object of conscious evolution, subjectivity. Another approach is to see a distinction between a ‘manifestation’-objective and ‘order’-subjective. Ham has based his ontology only on ‘manifestation’. He denies ‘order’. In his ontology morality is man made. To deny that subjective perception is a form of reality is to deny a step in evolution which I label ‘proprietary awareness’. Conscious evolution, subjectivity, is as necessary a process for study for cultural development as mechanical evolution, objectivity. Joe Hello, Hope eveyone had an enjoyable and safe holiday. The threads I've read through the weekend have lead me to comment and query fundemental aspects of our philosophies. My thoughts: Pirsigs value, Wilburs Holons, Topos (set) theory all share the same concept and are described simularly. That all reality is composed of interrelated forms of energy. The perception of this concept manifests as subject object metaphysics. The use of this concept is to form an accurate model in which to observe and predict possibility and probability. To use this concept to further any other concept other than an accurate model for observation is to follow perception not increase accurate observation. In my opinion to quarrel about god,essence,spirit, life force,quality, or betterness, to speculate that it is driven,pulled,evolves or drawn to a conclusion or goal is using that model to further a perception of a subject/object universe. Subject/object perception can not be "dropped" like a unstylish hand bag. Anyone who thinks they do not percieve in terms of subjects and objects is fooling themselves. To increase the accuracy of observation is to increase the accuracy of value Perception. Because we percieve in terms of subjects and objects, I speculate that definitive understanding of ultimate reality is unachieveable and will Be forever lost in subjective perception. This is the pitfall . Quality is perception, to give this name any meaning beyond this or to speak of anything before perception is an exercise in unknowable speculation. moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
