Ron But is there nt a distinction between symbols and objects? Symbols seem to imply subjective interpretation, objects a causal relationship?
DM ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Perception,evolution and the spirit > > > [DM] > > Is there not a distinction between language and perception? > Is perception not clearly less full of only objects than language? > It is also possible to talk in terms of what is experienced as feels, > smells etc and avoid object talk. SO is useful of course, it is adding > the M to make SOM that is clearly questionable. Have you tried > linguistic phenomenalism? -try a goggle search on it. > > [Ron] > Dm, I want to yes there is a distinction between perception and > language, but even in my most > non lingual moments visually I process data in terms of understanding > the object I'm seeing. > Carl jung suggests that all experience is based on symbols created from > the first experiences > of when we were children that even our perception is entirely based on > symbol relation. > I believe when we experience something and have no idea of what it is, > that is pure non-s/o > distinction. Ever get lost and have no idea where you are then connect > up with a road you > are familier with, a road you use all the time, ever notice how your > perception changes when you > realize where you are? I see s/o as symbol relation and therefore view > language as a complex form > Of symbol relation for language evokes symbol imagery. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:41 PM > Subject: Re: [MD] Perception,evolution and the spirit > > >> >> >> >> [DM] >> >> I meant ZMM of course. But if you fancy a change try Bishop Berkeley > or >> Whitehead's Process & Reality for explanation of why the subject > object >> language is optional and questionable. >> >> [Ron] >> DM, language is subject/object. Any time you define anything it is >> reduced to subject/object. >> I also believe perception follows suit, unless you grew up with no >> language and hold no >> definition for anything, or you are a victim of alzhiemers disease or >> catatonic, to drop >> subject object is to drop all conscious definition of anything and >> percieve all as one. >> Are you able to do this? >> MOQ does not allow me to overcome this but it does allow me to be > aware >> of it. It >> Allows me to refine my value judgements and make more accurate >> decisions. >> MOQ has not changed the way I percieve everyday reality but it has >> changed my >> acceptance of experiences. I no longer discount things based past >> experiences >> I strive to take into account all factors of experience before making >> A value judgement. >> >> A zen monk once said: before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. >> After enlightenment, >> Chop wood, carry water. >> >> If you term SOM to mean absolutism, either/or excluded middle logic, >> then yes >> It is optional. But as I stated, it is a much different story to > change >> your >> Perception of subject/object reality, that is what I'm talking about, >> if you >> would have read alittle more closely before being too quick to fire > off >> a sarcastic >> Quip. >> >> To all, I do make an effort not to use sarcasim or abuse, I would >> appreciate the same >> from all of you. I do not feel this is too much to ask. If you feel > that >> it is, >> please do not respond to my posts, that easy. Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 8:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Perception,evolution and the spirit >> >> >>> >>> >>> Ron said: >>>> Subject/object perception can not be "dropped" like a unstylish hand >>>> bag. >>>> Anyone who thinks they do not percieve in terms of subjects and >>>> objects is fooling themselves. >>> >>> >>> I know a good book you should read. >>> >>> DM >>> >>> >>> [Ron] >>> Do tell, I could use a good read. Thanks! >>> >>> >>> >>> moq_discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >>> >> >> moq_discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> moq_discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
