Ok this thread is starting to get philosophical but let me try to put it the technical path.
Convincing people to change is very difficult because of the resistance and drag effect. Take a look at what happened with G+ and Facebook. G+ is a total failure for the simple fact that very little people were using it. I use Facebook and I have a G+ account that I never use. Why? Because my friends are at Facebook. The more friends I have on facebook the more difficult it is for me to change to G+ simply because none of my friends are there. Even if I manage to convince some of them to change, the time effect will undo-it simply because they end up changing back to Facebook because most of their friends are using Facebook. It's a mesh-effect and the same can be compared to Netsukuku and the traditional Internet. In order to establish a gigantic network with netsuku, people need to be convinced to at least try and stay for awhile, in order to achieve a critical mass that will fight the tendency for people to switch back and maintain the users interest in using netsukuku. Its basically the chicken and the egg dilemma. Why would anyone want to use netsukuku if no one around is using netsukuku? I ask myself what would I need to convince a neighbour to join my netsukuku piece of network. I would need to convince him to buy a decent router (€€€), convince him that he would be able to do at least some of the things that he does on the internet (difficult but achievable) and convince him to maintain it. This is easier for the l33ts of the telecommunications world but very hard to achieve for the rest of the people and face it, there aren't many telecommunications l33ts out their. Even anarcho-capitalists like Jeff Berwick from the Dollar Vigilante strongly support the todays internet mainly because is composed by hundreds of private corporations, interconnected amongst themselves. I think that "spreading the word" is as important as "writing the code". Also, the momentum needs to be kept, otherwise time will end up killing it. On 12 July 2013 10:48, <[email protected]> wrote: > *shigh* > Here's a link about Facebook I received a while ago from the riseup > newsletter, > you should read it: > https://nadir.org/txt/We_need_to_talk_about_Facebook.html > > And, what's the point on advertising ntk and getting lots of nodes all > over the > world? To actually make something you need nodes that are close to each > other. > If you really want to make a netsukuku network go advertise it in the > neighbourhood, offer to teach how to use it, make a demo or whatever, but > localy, in a small colective. > > If you want to change the world, start by changing yourself, then change > the > people closer to you, and slowly expand. The Internet as it is nowadays is > full > of aliens. For change you need humans, go find them. > > Also, kill you TV. > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 06:06:51PM -0700, Valeska Grim wrote: > > Okay, That is seriously ridiculous, Netsukuku is a network that will > keep you > > safe, There is NO hypocrisy in advertising it else where, Seriously. It's > > useless without nodes, You could made an ad for the tor project nd put > it on > > TV, it doesn't take away from anonymity. It increases it because more > people > > will come in, nd strengthen the network. > > > > > ============================================================================== > > From: Yussi <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Thursday, July 11, 2013 7:59:42 AM > > Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] Netsukuku facebook page! > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > Facebook is dead, long live Diaspora! > > > > Seriously though, I use facebook, and I fucking hate it, I know all > > the moral ins and outs of using it, and still do. There was already a > > facebook page for ntk, there are now two. I don't think this project > > in particular is that subversive, the only thing about it that might > > set some red lights is the association with the freaknet collective/dyne. > > > > Yeah, even the Egyptian blackblock has a facebook page, this is dumb, > > but i think ntk is all right there. I opened the reddit page (which at > > retrospect was a pointless thing to do), but reddit is only slightly > > better than FB. > > > > I think discussing the morality and ethics of netsukuku is kinda > > pointless, I would much rather discuss the technical aspects, I think > > Valeska considers herself an anarcho-capitalist (but i don't want to > > speak for her), which can explain some of the decisions she took, and > > personally, as a primitivist/syndicalist/anarcho-communist/some other > > labels, I find a dumb ideology to follow, not to mention that in my > > eyes we already have something very similar to anarcho-capitalism with > > the state already being less powerful than corporations. > > > > none-the-less, this can explain some of the choices she took. Now this > > will surely become a thread about politics, which I'd rather not have, > > but if this is required to move us forwards into actually having some > > organisation, and some actual development of the project, than we may > > as well get it out of the way. > > > > On a different topic, someone here said he knows how to make tunnels > > over i2p, I forgot who that was, but I couldn't find anything in > > google about this, the problem being that i2p has a java console, and > > we need somehow to make a tunnel device interface. I forgot who that > > was, but could you help me out with this? > > > > thanks, > > > > On 11/07/13 15:14, hellekin wrote: > > > On 07/06/2013 01:04 PM, Charles N Wyble wrote: > > >> Wow. What a great way to discourage participation. That meaaage > > >> could have been written much nicer, and sent in private. > > > > > > *** I agree that it may sound harsh, but take into account a couple > > > of things: Netsukuku is kind of an anti-facebook, as it fosters > > > decentralization, anonymity, and censorship-resistance. Opening a > > > page on Facebook is like getting in bed with the enemy. I'm pretty > > > sure the proportion of people on this list using Facebook is MUCH > > > LESS than the general population. > > > > > > So, combined with HTML posting, etc., it displays a bit of > > > cluelessness that can be exasperating to some. I've seen that > > > before in other lists. For example, a few months ago somebody > > > willing to help the GNU Guile community opened a Google+ account. > > > If you know about the GNU project, and where it stands ethically, > > > you will understand how out-of-place that initiative was. Well, > > > Facebook being even worse than Google, although it's arguable, you > > > can't expect tolerance here. > > > > > > I think you need to reset your ethical filter, and read some > > > anti-Facebook arguments. If you still can't see any problem using > > > Facebook, and you insist that Facebook is a good way to promote an > > > anti-establishment project--which, nowadays, is an unfortunate > > > equivalent to non-supportive of the establishment--then consider > > > this: people "liking" Netsukuku on Facebook will automatically be > > > tagged as subversive, and watched (more closely) for that reason. > > > > > > I know that the Brazilian Black Bloc was (or still is?) on > > > Facebook, and I found that so clueless that it made me laugh. I had > > > no idea such radical people could be that clueless, or that bold, > > > if you prefer. > > > > > > In conclusion, although I agree with you Charles that crash could > > > have handled that issue privately, I'm also willing to consider it > > > a general advice and heads up for all the people who, like you, > > > are willing to help but lack a bit of context doing so. > > > > > > That said, failure is the best option to actually learn something! > > > :) > > > > > > == hk > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing > > > list [email protected] > > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) > > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJR3sheAAoJELGGH8ff/6zfVsQIANcvc07RY7hrQZdAuMRuBwAn > > JaweWcbLs/z4h4vDK1xJ/VX14ScdVH9K/FnHQdd7UTYD4nW+XFOlr83VCw+f8M0a > > JLR5wQLtas13Tg3gzyoj3+DGUtbMzDiLC1dHXMjDGHyfe6O/ZVW/RMldQ/2/bBKA > > NgpmOC/oBEDKsnUKxDYmgTN/+dRZ8dhTCr2dUeIPgOe3/hdFg2IL2BS6Ge1lFPxp > > J6ZiCyNhnOKzg0a/UcP4fab2GkJWfJgH+a9pKDKEek9LTPjRm1oBDYtvozQ8J3Cm > > 8n9nD0xgSbe02/haBRyturiaXCNWhhiTgkU58kCG/VAxP7ZMMDXrf09lMO5ivKs= > > =dJgF > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > > Netsukuku mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netsukuku mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > [email protected] > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > -- Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] MSN Contact -> [email protected] Skype & GTalk -> [email protected] LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
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