...... I wish I had a ban hammer......
________________________________
From: Yussi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2013 7:44:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] Netsukuku facebook page!
On 13/07/13 02:11, Valeska Grim wrote:
> yesh, I'm sorry about those people Yussi.
You misunderstood me, I too find your over enthusiasm quite annoying,
sorry, but just chill.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Yussi <[email protected]>
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 12, 2013 8:00:13 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [Netsukuku] Netsukuku facebook page!
>
> Don't be so fucking judgemental,
> So I, like many other sheeple use this crappy app. If you don't, good
> on you. without facebook, none of my friends would know how to use
> gpg, without facebook none of my friends would use linux,without FB
> none of them would use TOR, without facebook i wouldn't know where the
> best parties are tomorrow, We even outed an undercover cop on facebook.
>
> but there is only this much i can do, I cannot move all of them to
> diaspora, I cannot make someone who doesn't want to spend the effort
> learning, but I sure as hell can make them understand the implications
> of using it, I can make them understand why they shouldn't put
> identifying information on it, I cannot make them stop.
>
> I can explain how to manage separate email accounts, how to designate
> activities, how not to get caught, but to most people, computers are
> black boxes, magical machines which they depend on, but do not
> understand at the slightest.
>
> It's a sad situation when the techies spend large amounts of time
> making things as simple as possible, for people, who perhaps should
> not be using computers at all, but due to the course taken by society
> do all of their work and leisure on them.
>
> Now all of them at some point took the effort and learned to use
> windows (or mac), anyone who knows that could operate a linux machine,
> yet only few dare try. Do you think I have a chance in hell to
> convince any of my neighbours to use netsukuku (assuming we brought it
> up to speed)? Why should they? and if they do, does that mean they
> have to switch to linux? One by one I'm moving them away from
> proprietary software, none of them have yet to revert back to it.
>
> We are facing a serious problem, part of the job of ntk and other
> similar technologies is to set up an infrastructure that will make an
> internet blackout impossible, however, while the internet works,
> non-techie users would not bother trying meshing. the day it goes
> black we'll have everyone running to us for help, and it would be very
> difficult to connect to the outside world because there is no
> infrastructure.
>
> If we want to convince people that it's worth the effort, we need to
> come up with a killer app, something you cannot do, or not do as well
> without a mesh (ntk or otherwise).
>
> Here is how i want to do my setup:
> On the router i want to have two wireless networks, one managed, one
> ad-hoc.
>
> When connecting to the managed, you get a landing page where you can
> download ntk, with a brief explanation on what it is and how to
> install it. you can than press OK and start to surf the net, all
> outwards traffic should go through TOR.
>
> When connecting to the ad-hoc, and then using a browser, you also get
> a landing page, with some programs which use ntk, and a directory of
> local services, things like bulletin board, TOR&I2P&gnunet&...
> gateways, locally based facebook alternative, a phone system
> alternative to skype etc.
>
> I obviously need to limit bandwidth, but that's not a problem.
> I understand that I2P/cjd/gnunet also have some wireless mesh
> solution, but i am not sure how these work (except for cjd which is
> like ntk just an adhoc network). gnunet's layer 2 sound pretty
> awesome, in fact i think i understand why i was seeing all these
> connections on my local network from it, and that this is the designed
> behaviour, so i would return to using it as well.
>
> This is all a bit of a mess, but at this stage, gnunet seems like a
> really nice solution, and as i was saying before, i think the more
> alternatives there are out there, the better, if that means that with
> time we'll choose to abandon ntk for something better than so be it.
>
> I am wondering if AlpT is still here, and if his opinion of the
> viability of ntk has changed, A short google reveals that he is now a
> professor of mathematics, and although he's been uninvolved for many
> years now, he is the one who truly understands the ins and outs out
> the routing algorithm, something that I can't say I entirely do. (I
> think I get the general idea, but I don't think I know the
> mathematical implications of the path finding algorithms as much as he
> does, or as much as I would like to)
>
> On 12/07/13 13:39, Carlos Ferreira wrote:
>
>
>
>> On 12 July 2013 12:01, <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>> wrote:
>
>> First of all, let it be philosophical. Software is not only about
>> technical stuff, otherwise, why don't we code free drivers for
>> nuclear weapons? We are (or should be) human, not robots.
>
>> As I said before (it was me with a missconfiguratin in .muttrc)
>> start by changing yourself. If you can't get out of facebook non of
>> your friends will. The best (even the only) way of changing
>> people's minds is being an example to them. Want to get your
>> friends out of facebook? Get out of it. And stay firm. If you
>> really believe that people should stop using facebook, why the hell
>> do you go back to it? Are you a sheep following the mass like most
>> of the people? Only dead fish follow the current.
>
>
>> I only use Facebook to stay in contact with some friends. I more of
>> a IM guy with a gigantic contact list that has been kept over the
>> years. This is my main way to stay in contact with friends that are
>> far away.
>
>
>
>> I've had to fight against the fucking Winbugs almost-monopoly in
>> the 3 years I've spent at university, because teachers didn't use
>> Linux and didn't want to learn alternatives to the software they
>> were used to teach. But I stayed firm and refused to use winbugs at
>> all, and in the end I even got other 3 mates to change to
>> GNU/Linux, just by being a fucking example to them. I didn't even
>> need to talk shit about winbugs, I just used Linux.
>
>
>> Good for you. At my university we are all Linux because it is
>> impossible to do what we do with Windows (and I mean, work with
>> network protocols). Despite that, I still use Windows for other
>> things (Office and stuff) Why? Because its a job requirement and my
>> co-workers use it and prefer to use it. I respect that and I have
>> adapted to the situation. I have no problem in working in a windows
>> environment if required and I don't bitch about it.
>
>
>
>> You ain't changing nothing talking to people if you don't change
>> yourself. If you want change, Do It Yourself. It's hard as fuck,
>> yeah, but sacrifice is what makes things valuable.
>
>> Whatever you said about anarcho-capitalism I don't care, I'm plain
>> anarchist.
>
>
>> I respect that. Its an ideology.
>
>
>
>> I don't know what momentum you're talking about because there is
>> none right now. Be patient. Netsukuku is not like Tor or I2P. It's
>> seeks something similar, but in a way more difficult way, so it's
>> normal that it's more difficult to make people use it, but just
>> keep working, and using it yourself. And close that damn facebook
>> account, I bet you don't need it at all.
>
>
>> Like I said, I use facebook to keep in contact with friends. I
>> adapted to the situation and because of that, I maintained the
>> contact. I have no problem in using Facebook.
>
>
>> This is not a question about us or about us changing the world.
>> Its about other people wanting to change. You cannot expect other
>> people to go after a new thing (netsukuku) just because its
>> considered by a few "the right way to go". The people need to enter
>> such system voluntarily otherwise they will just be dragging
>> themselves. Its like choosing "the red pill" when in fact, they
>> want "the blue pill", but they just don't know yet because they
>> don't really know "how deep the rabbit hole goes..." The change
>> must be shown first so that the will makes the change from within.
>
>> Also, these people are not sheeps, they are persons just like us,
>> it just happens that they have different interests and different
>> priorities. We should also respect that.
>
>
>
>
>
>> -- Gdrooid
>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:24:31AM +0100, Carlos Ferreira wrote:
>>> Ok this thread is starting to get philosophical but let me try
>>> to
>> put it the
>>> technical path.
>>>
>>> Convincing people to change is very difficult because of the
>> resistance and
>>> drag effect. Take a look at what happened with G+ and Facebook.
>>> G+
>> is a total
>>> failure for the simple fact that very little people were using
>>> it.
>> I use
>>> Facebook and I have a G+ account that I never use. Why? Because
>>> my
>> friends are
>>> at Facebook. The more friends I have on facebook the more
>> difficult it is for
>>> me to change to G+ simply because none of my friends are there.
>> Even if I
>>> manage to convince some of them to change, the time effect will
>> undo-it simply
>>> because they end up changing back to Facebook because most of
>> their friends are
>>> using Facebook.
>>>
>>> It's a mesh-effect and the same can be compared to Netsukuku and
>>> the traditional Internet. In order to establish a gigantic
>>> network
>> with netsuku,
>>> people need to be convinced to at least try and stay for
>>> awhile,
>> in order to
>>> achieve a critical mass that will fight the tendency for people
>>> to
>> switch back
>>> and maintain the users interest in using netsukuku. Its
>>> basically
>> the chicken
>>> and the egg dilemma. Why would anyone want to use netsukuku if
>>> no
>> one around is
>>> using netsukuku? I ask myself what would I need to convince a
>>> neighbour to join my
>> netsukuku
>>> piece of network. I would need to convince him to buy a decent
>> router (€€€),
>>> convince him that he would be able to do at least some of the
>> things that he
>>> does on the internet (difficult but achievable) and convince him
>> to maintain
>>> it. This is easier for the l33ts of the telecommunications world
>> but very hard
>>> to achieve for the rest of the people and face it, there aren't
>>> many telecommunications l33ts out their.
>>>
>>> Even anarcho-capitalists like Jeff Berwick from the Dollar
>> Vigilante strongly
>>> support the todays internet mainly because is composed by
>>> hundreds
>> of private
>>> corporations, interconnected amongst themselves.
>>>
>>> I think that "spreading the word" is as important as
>> "writing
>>> the code". Also, the momentum needs to be kept, otherwise
>> time will end up
>>> killing it. --
>>>
>>> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications
>>> Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> MSN Contact ->
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> Skype
> & GTalk ->
>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>>> LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
>
>>> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing
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> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
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>
>> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing
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> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
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>
>
>
>> --
>
>> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute
>> Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> <mailto:[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>>
>> MSN Contact -> carlosmf.pt <http://carlosmf.pt
> <http://carlosmf.pt/>>@gmail.com
>> <http://gmail.com <http://gmail.com/>> Skype & GTalk -> carlosmf.pt
>> <http://carlosmf.pt <http://carlosmf.pt/>>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com
> <http://gmail.com/>> LinkedIn ->
>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
>
>
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