yesh, I'm sorry about those people Yussi.
________________________________
From: Yussi <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 8:00:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Netsukuku] Netsukuku facebook page!
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Don't be so fucking judgemental,
So I, like many other sheeple use this crappy app. If you don't, good
on you. without facebook, none of my friends would know how to use
gpg, without facebook none of my friends would use linux,without FB
none of them would use TOR, without facebook i wouldn't know where the
best parties are tomorrow, We even outed an undercover cop on facebook.
but there is only this much i can do, I cannot move all of them to
diaspora, I cannot make someone who doesn't want to spend the effort
learning, but I sure as hell can make them understand the implications
of using it, I can make them understand why they shouldn't put
identifying information on it, I cannot make them stop.
I can explain how to manage separate email accounts, how to designate
activities, how not to get caught, but to most people, computers are
black boxes, magical machines which they depend on, but do not
understand at the slightest.
It's a sad situation when the techies spend large amounts of time
making things as simple as possible, for people, who perhaps should
not be using computers at all, but due to the course taken by society
do all of their work and leisure on them.
Now all of them at some point took the effort and learned to use
windows (or mac), anyone who knows that could operate a linux machine,
yet only few dare try. Do you think I have a chance in hell to
convince any of my neighbours to use netsukuku (assuming we brought it
up to speed)? Why should they? and if they do, does that mean they
have to switch to linux? One by one I'm moving them away from
proprietary software, none of them have yet to revert back to it.
We are facing a serious problem, part of the job of ntk and other
similar technologies is to set up an infrastructure that will make an
internet blackout impossible, however, while the internet works,
non-techie users would not bother trying meshing. the day it goes
black we'll have everyone running to us for help, and it would be very
difficult to connect to the outside world because there is no
infrastructure.
If we want to convince people that it's worth the effort, we need to
come up with a killer app, something you cannot do, or not do as well
without a mesh (ntk or otherwise).
Here is how i want to do my setup:
On the router i want to have two wireless networks, one managed, one
ad-hoc.
When connecting to the managed, you get a landing page where you can
download ntk, with a brief explanation on what it is and how to
install it. you can than press OK and start to surf the net, all
outwards traffic should go through TOR.
When connecting to the ad-hoc, and then using a browser, you also get
a landing page, with some programs which use ntk, and a directory of
local services, things like bulletin board, TOR&I2P&gnunet&...
gateways, locally based facebook alternative, a phone system
alternative to skype etc.
I obviously need to limit bandwidth, but that's not a problem.
I understand that I2P/cjd/gnunet also have some wireless mesh
solution, but i am not sure how these work (except for cjd which is
like ntk just an adhoc network). gnunet's layer 2 sound pretty
awesome, in fact i think i understand why i was seeing all these
connections on my local network from it, and that this is the designed
behaviour, so i would return to using it as well.
This is all a bit of a mess, but at this stage, gnunet seems like a
really nice solution, and as i was saying before, i think the more
alternatives there are out there, the better, if that means that with
time we'll choose to abandon ntk for something better than so be it.
I am wondering if AlpT is still here, and if his opinion of the
viability of ntk has changed, A short google reveals that he is now a
professor of mathematics, and although he's been uninvolved for many
years now, he is the one who truly understands the ins and outs out
the routing algorithm, something that I can't say I entirely do. (I
think I get the general idea, but I don't think I know the
mathematical implications of the path finding algorithms as much as he
does, or as much as I would like to)
On 12/07/13 13:39, Carlos Ferreira wrote:
>
>
>
> On 12 July 2013 12:01, <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
> First of all, let it be philosophical. Software is not only about
> technical stuff, otherwise, why don't we code free drivers for
> nuclear weapons? We are (or should be) human, not robots.
>
> As I said before (it was me with a missconfiguratin in .muttrc)
> start by changing yourself. If you can't get out of facebook non of
> your friends will. The best (even the only) way of changing
> people's minds is being an example to them. Want to get your
> friends out of facebook? Get out of it. And stay firm. If you
> really believe that people should stop using facebook, why the hell
> do you go back to it? Are you a sheep following the mass like most
> of the people? Only dead fish follow the current.
>
>
> I only use Facebook to stay in contact with some friends. I more of
> a IM guy with a gigantic contact list that has been kept over the
> years. This is my main way to stay in contact with friends that are
> far away.
>
>
>
> I've had to fight against the fucking Winbugs almost-monopoly in
> the 3 years I've spent at university, because teachers didn't use
> Linux and didn't want to learn alternatives to the software they
> were used to teach. But I stayed firm and refused to use winbugs at
> all, and in the end I even got other 3 mates to change to
> GNU/Linux, just by being a fucking example to them. I didn't even
> need to talk shit about winbugs, I just used Linux.
>
>
> Good for you. At my university we are all Linux because it is
> impossible to do what we do with Windows (and I mean, work with
> network protocols). Despite that, I still use Windows for other
> things (Office and stuff) Why? Because its a job requirement and my
> co-workers use it and prefer to use it. I respect that and I have
> adapted to the situation. I have no problem in working in a windows
> environment if required and I don't bitch about it.
>
>
>
> You ain't changing nothing talking to people if you don't change
> yourself. If you want change, Do It Yourself. It's hard as fuck,
> yeah, but sacrifice is what makes things valuable.
>
> Whatever you said about anarcho-capitalism I don't care, I'm plain
> anarchist.
>
>
> I respect that. Its an ideology.
>
>
>
> I don't know what momentum you're talking about because there is
> none right now. Be patient. Netsukuku is not like Tor or I2P. It's
> seeks something similar, but in a way more difficult way, so it's
> normal that it's more difficult to make people use it, but just
> keep working, and using it yourself. And close that damn facebook
> account, I bet you don't need it at all.
>
>
> Like I said, I use facebook to keep in contact with friends. I
> adapted to the situation and because of that, I maintained the
> contact. I have no problem in using Facebook.
>
>
> This is not a question about us or about us changing the world.
> Its about other people wanting to change. You cannot expect other
> people to go after a new thing (netsukuku) just because its
> considered by a few "the right way to go". The people need to enter
> such system voluntarily otherwise they will just be dragging
> themselves. Its like choosing "the red pill" when in fact, they
> want "the blue pill", but they just don't know yet because they
> don't really know "how deep the rabbit hole goes..." The change
> must be shown first so that the will makes the change from within.
>
> Also, these people are not sheeps, they are persons just like us,
> it just happens that they have different interests and different
> priorities. We should also respect that.
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Gdrooid
>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:24:31AM +0100, Carlos Ferreira wrote:
>> Ok this thread is starting to get philosophical but let me try
>> to
> put it the
>> technical path.
>>
>> Convincing people to change is very difficult because of the
> resistance and
>> drag effect. Take a look at what happened with G+ and Facebook.
>> G+
> is a total
>> failure for the simple fact that very little people were using
>> it.
> I use
>> Facebook and I have a G+ account that I never use. Why? Because
>> my
> friends are
>> at Facebook. The more friends I have on facebook the more
> difficult it is for
>> me to change to G+ simply because none of my friends are there.
> Even if I
>> manage to convince some of them to change, the time effect will
> undo-it simply
>> because they end up changing back to Facebook because most of
> their friends are
>> using Facebook.
>>
>> It's a mesh-effect and the same can be compared to Netsukuku and
>> the traditional Internet. In order to establish a gigantic
>> network
> with netsuku,
>> people need to be convinced to at least try and stay for
>> awhile,
> in order to
>> achieve a critical mass that will fight the tendency for people
>> to
> switch back
>> and maintain the users interest in using netsukuku. Its
>> basically
> the chicken
>> and the egg dilemma. Why would anyone want to use netsukuku if
>> no
> one around is
>> using netsukuku? I ask myself what would I need to convince a
>> neighbour to join my
> netsukuku
>> piece of network. I would need to convince him to buy a decent
> router (€€€),
>> convince him that he would be able to do at least some of the
> things that he
>> does on the internet (difficult but achievable) and convince him
> to maintain
>> it. This is easier for the l33ts of the telecommunications world
> but very hard
>> to achieve for the rest of the people and face it, there aren't
>> many telecommunications l33ts out their.
>>
>> Even anarcho-capitalists like Jeff Berwick from the Dollar
> Vigilante strongly
>> support the todays internet mainly because is composed by
>> hundreds
> of private
>> corporations, interconnected amongst themselves.
>>
>> I think that "spreading the word" is as important as
> "writing
>> the code". Also, the momentum needs to be kept, otherwise
> time will end up
>> killing it. --
>>
>> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications
>> Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]> MSN Contact -> [email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]> Skype & GTalk ->
>> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>
>> LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
>
>> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing
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>
> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute
> Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> MSN Contact -> carlosmf.pt <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com
> <http://gmail.com> Skype & GTalk -> carlosmf.pt
> <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com> LinkedIn ->
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
>
>
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