I am following the arguments, and enjoying its constructive critique. Not technical, but interested. Sdcard s with rpi compat distros would be nice. Can give them to neighbours. Cheers b On 12 Jul 2013 17:22, "Carlos Ferreira" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On 12 July 2013 16:00, Yussi <[email protected]> wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> Don't be so fucking judgemental, >> So I, like many other sheeple use this crappy app. If you don't, good >> on you. without facebook, none of my friends would know how to use >> gpg, without facebook none of my friends would use linux,without FB >> none of them would use TOR, without facebook i wouldn't know where the >> best parties are tomorrow, We even outed an undercover cop on facebook. >> >> but there is only this much i can do, I cannot move all of them to >> diaspora, I cannot make someone who doesn't want to spend the effort >> learning, but I sure as hell can make them understand the implications >> of using it, I can make them understand why they shouldn't put >> identifying information on it, I cannot make them stop. >> >> I can explain how to manage separate email accounts, how to designate >> activities, how not to get caught, but to most people, computers are >> black boxes, magical machines which they depend on, but do not >> understand at the slightest. >> >> It's a sad situation when the techies spend large amounts of time >> making things as simple as possible, for people, who perhaps should >> not be using computers at all, but due to the course taken by society >> do all of their work and leisure on them. >> >> Now all of them at some point took the effort and learned to use >> windows (or mac), anyone who knows that could operate a linux machine, >> yet only few dare try. Do you think I have a chance in hell to >> convince any of my neighbours to use netsukuku (assuming we brought it >> up to speed)? Why should they? and if they do, does that mean they >> have to switch to linux? One by one I'm moving them away from >> proprietary software, none of them have yet to revert back to it. >> >> We are facing a serious problem, part of the job of ntk and other >> similar technologies is to set up an infrastructure that will make an >> internet blackout impossible, however, while the internet works, >> non-techie users would not bother trying meshing. the day it goes >> black we'll have everyone running to us for help, and it would be very >> difficult to connect to the outside world because there is no >> infrastructure. >> >> If we want to convince people that it's worth the effort, we need to >> come up with a killer app, something you cannot do, or not do as well >> without a mesh (ntk or otherwise). >> >> Here is how i want to do my setup: >> On the router i want to have two wireless networks, one managed, one >> ad-hoc. >> >> When connecting to the managed, you get a landing page where you can >> download ntk, with a brief explanation on what it is and how to >> install it. you can than press OK and start to surf the net, all >> outwards traffic should go through TOR. >> >> When connecting to the ad-hoc, and then using a browser, you also get >> a landing page, with some programs which use ntk, and a directory of >> local services, things like bulletin board, TOR&I2P&gnunet&... >> gateways, locally based facebook alternative, a phone system >> alternative to skype etc. >> >> I obviously need to limit bandwidth, but that's not a problem. >> I understand that I2P/cjd/gnunet also have some wireless mesh >> solution, but i am not sure how these work (except for cjd which is >> like ntk just an adhoc network). gnunet's layer 2 sound pretty >> awesome, in fact i think i understand why i was seeing all these >> connections on my local network from it, and that this is the designed >> behaviour, so i would return to using it as well. >> >> This is all a bit of a mess, but at this stage, gnunet seems like a >> really nice solution, and as i was saying before, i think the more >> alternatives there are out there, the better, if that means that with >> time we'll choose to abandon ntk for something better than so be it. >> >> I am wondering if AlpT is still here, and if his opinion of the >> viability of ntk has changed, A short google reveals that he is now a >> professor of mathematics, and although he's been uninvolved for many >> years now, he is the one who truly understands the ins and outs out >> the routing algorithm, something that I can't say I entirely do. (I >> think I get the general idea, but I don't think I know the >> mathematical implications of the path finding algorithms as much as he >> does, or as much as I would like to) >> > > Last time I checked his LinkedIn profile, he was pursuing his PhD for the > last two years at Cambridge but he has not yet achieved that. I believe > that he has moved on from Ntk. > http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=61989923&locale=en_US&trk=tyah2 > > >> >> On 12/07/13 13:39, Carlos Ferreira wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > On 12 July 2013 12:01, <[email protected] >> > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > >> > First of all, let it be philosophical. Software is not only about >> > technical stuff, otherwise, why don't we code free drivers for >> > nuclear weapons? We are (or should be) human, not robots. >> > >> > As I said before (it was me with a missconfiguratin in .muttrc) >> > start by changing yourself. If you can't get out of facebook non of >> > your friends will. The best (even the only) way of changing >> > people's minds is being an example to them. Want to get your >> > friends out of facebook? Get out of it. And stay firm. If you >> > really believe that people should stop using facebook, why the hell >> > do you go back to it? Are you a sheep following the mass like most >> > of the people? Only dead fish follow the current. >> > >> > >> > I only use Facebook to stay in contact with some friends. I more of >> > a IM guy with a gigantic contact list that has been kept over the >> > years. This is my main way to stay in contact with friends that are >> > far away. >> > >> > >> > >> > I've had to fight against the fucking Winbugs almost-monopoly in >> > the 3 years I've spent at university, because teachers didn't use >> > Linux and didn't want to learn alternatives to the software they >> > were used to teach. But I stayed firm and refused to use winbugs at >> > all, and in the end I even got other 3 mates to change to >> > GNU/Linux, just by being a fucking example to them. I didn't even >> > need to talk shit about winbugs, I just used Linux. >> > >> > >> > Good for you. At my university we are all Linux because it is >> > impossible to do what we do with Windows (and I mean, work with >> > network protocols). Despite that, I still use Windows for other >> > things (Office and stuff) Why? Because its a job requirement and my >> > co-workers use it and prefer to use it. I respect that and I have >> > adapted to the situation. I have no problem in working in a windows >> > environment if required and I don't bitch about it. >> > >> > >> > >> > You ain't changing nothing talking to people if you don't change >> > yourself. If you want change, Do It Yourself. It's hard as fuck, >> > yeah, but sacrifice is what makes things valuable. >> > >> > Whatever you said about anarcho-capitalism I don't care, I'm plain >> > anarchist. >> > >> > >> > I respect that. Its an ideology. >> > >> > >> > >> > I don't know what momentum you're talking about because there is >> > none right now. Be patient. Netsukuku is not like Tor or I2P. It's >> > seeks something similar, but in a way more difficult way, so it's >> > normal that it's more difficult to make people use it, but just >> > keep working, and using it yourself. And close that damn facebook >> > account, I bet you don't need it at all. >> > >> > >> > Like I said, I use facebook to keep in contact with friends. I >> > adapted to the situation and because of that, I maintained the >> > contact. I have no problem in using Facebook. >> > >> > >> > This is not a question about us or about us changing the world. >> > Its about other people wanting to change. You cannot expect other >> > people to go after a new thing (netsukuku) just because its >> > considered by a few "the right way to go". The people need to enter >> > such system voluntarily otherwise they will just be dragging >> > themselves. Its like choosing "the red pill" when in fact, they >> > want "the blue pill", but they just don't know yet because they >> > don't really know "how deep the rabbit hole goes..." The change >> > must be shown first so that the will makes the change from within. >> > >> > Also, these people are not sheeps, they are persons just like us, >> > it just happens that they have different interests and different >> > priorities. We should also respect that. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- Gdrooid >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:24:31AM +0100, Carlos Ferreira wrote: >> >> Ok this thread is starting to get philosophical but let me try >> >> to >> > put it the >> >> technical path. >> >> >> >> Convincing people to change is very difficult because of the >> > resistance and >> >> drag effect. Take a look at what happened with G+ and Facebook. >> >> G+ >> > is a total >> >> failure for the simple fact that very little people were using >> >> it. >> > I use >> >> Facebook and I have a G+ account that I never use. Why? Because >> >> my >> > friends are >> >> at Facebook. The more friends I have on facebook the more >> > difficult it is for >> >> me to change to G+ simply because none of my friends are there. >> > Even if I >> >> manage to convince some of them to change, the time effect will >> > undo-it simply >> >> because they end up changing back to Facebook because most of >> > their friends are >> >> using Facebook. >> >> >> >> It's a mesh-effect and the same can be compared to Netsukuku and >> >> the traditional Internet. In order to establish a gigantic >> >> network >> > with netsuku, >> >> people need to be convinced to at least try and stay for >> >> awhile, >> > in order to >> >> achieve a critical mass that will fight the tendency for people >> >> to >> > switch back >> >> and maintain the users interest in using netsukuku. Its >> >> basically >> > the chicken >> >> and the egg dilemma. Why would anyone want to use netsukuku if >> >> no >> > one around is >> >> using netsukuku? I ask myself what would I need to convince a >> >> neighbour to join my >> > netsukuku >> >> piece of network. I would need to convince him to buy a decent >> > router (€€€), >> >> convince him that he would be able to do at least some of the >> > things that he >> >> does on the internet (difficult but achievable) and convince him >> > to maintain >> >> it. This is easier for the l33ts of the telecommunications world >> > but very hard >> >> to achieve for the rest of the people and face it, there aren't >> >> many telecommunications l33ts out their. >> >> >> >> Even anarcho-capitalists like Jeff Berwick from the Dollar >> > Vigilante strongly >> >> support the todays internet mainly because is composed by >> >> hundreds >> > of private >> >> corporations, interconnected amongst themselves. >> >> >> >> I think that "spreading the word" is as important as >> > "writing >> >> the code". Also, the momentum needs to be kept, otherwise >> > time will end up >> >> killing it. -- >> >> >> >> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications >> >> Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] >> >> <mailto:[email protected]> MSN Contact -> [email protected] >> >> <mailto:[email protected]> Skype & GTalk -> >> >> [email protected] >> > <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing >> >> list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku >> > >> > _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing >> > list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute >> > Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > MSN Contact -> carlosmf.pt <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com >> > <http://gmail.com> Skype & GTalk -> carlosmf.pt >> > <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com> LinkedIn -> >> > http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing >> > list [email protected] >> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku >> >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ >> >> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJR4Bn9AAoJELGGH8ff/6zf9twIALDL8CmijMM0MZ3fXJ+PExbh >> R4/5+axqO9XncrgeaD8W4+8qTk6Vlaau3m8vkxZ0No0dbDqOAe0X23y/M2c1KSK6 >> Nqg6D+UCu1S1EX6V3lpr+CPNh9g1xKOzl/vh2kZ6DUoOBbQEQrt6vtwQypIFPSSC >> zSr4XU0pYUh/n+HLMC37Ug4M9mv56PPh/O4NulVaZS6KUSx4QsGhaRkoZXpYSRrw >> Kv6H2HL0KUBzZgoiUaY0xjIcdxCIENinC3aPXNXIuVHamo4uekus/NGqIoQdlIYq >> P/DFtHQYdhyw+MyhYzbesCn+XpyX8wzUHkd1DOAnUy3+QieI1X7rFY+GRyBSpEo= >> =5v5v >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> _______________________________________________ >> Netsukuku mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku >> > > > > -- > > Carlos Miguel Ferreira > Researcher at Telecommunications Institute > Aveiro - Portugal > Work E-mail - [email protected] > MSN Contact -> [email protected] > Skype & GTalk -> [email protected] > LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira > > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > [email protected] > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > >
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