On 12 July 2013 16:00, Yussi <[email protected]> wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Don't be so fucking judgemental, > So I, like many other sheeple use this crappy app. If you don't, good > on you. without facebook, none of my friends would know how to use > gpg, without facebook none of my friends would use linux,without FB > none of them would use TOR, without facebook i wouldn't know where the > best parties are tomorrow, We even outed an undercover cop on facebook. > > but there is only this much i can do, I cannot move all of them to > diaspora, I cannot make someone who doesn't want to spend the effort > learning, but I sure as hell can make them understand the implications > of using it, I can make them understand why they shouldn't put > identifying information on it, I cannot make them stop. > > I can explain how to manage separate email accounts, how to designate > activities, how not to get caught, but to most people, computers are > black boxes, magical machines which they depend on, but do not > understand at the slightest. > > It's a sad situation when the techies spend large amounts of time > making things as simple as possible, for people, who perhaps should > not be using computers at all, but due to the course taken by society > do all of their work and leisure on them. > > Now all of them at some point took the effort and learned to use > windows (or mac), anyone who knows that could operate a linux machine, > yet only few dare try. Do you think I have a chance in hell to > convince any of my neighbours to use netsukuku (assuming we brought it > up to speed)? Why should they? and if they do, does that mean they > have to switch to linux? One by one I'm moving them away from > proprietary software, none of them have yet to revert back to it. > > We are facing a serious problem, part of the job of ntk and other > similar technologies is to set up an infrastructure that will make an > internet blackout impossible, however, while the internet works, > non-techie users would not bother trying meshing. the day it goes > black we'll have everyone running to us for help, and it would be very > difficult to connect to the outside world because there is no > infrastructure. > > If we want to convince people that it's worth the effort, we need to > come up with a killer app, something you cannot do, or not do as well > without a mesh (ntk or otherwise). > > Here is how i want to do my setup: > On the router i want to have two wireless networks, one managed, one > ad-hoc. > > When connecting to the managed, you get a landing page where you can > download ntk, with a brief explanation on what it is and how to > install it. you can than press OK and start to surf the net, all > outwards traffic should go through TOR. > > When connecting to the ad-hoc, and then using a browser, you also get > a landing page, with some programs which use ntk, and a directory of > local services, things like bulletin board, TOR&I2P&gnunet&... > gateways, locally based facebook alternative, a phone system > alternative to skype etc. > > I obviously need to limit bandwidth, but that's not a problem. > I understand that I2P/cjd/gnunet also have some wireless mesh > solution, but i am not sure how these work (except for cjd which is > like ntk just an adhoc network). gnunet's layer 2 sound pretty > awesome, in fact i think i understand why i was seeing all these > connections on my local network from it, and that this is the designed > behaviour, so i would return to using it as well. > > This is all a bit of a mess, but at this stage, gnunet seems like a > really nice solution, and as i was saying before, i think the more > alternatives there are out there, the better, if that means that with > time we'll choose to abandon ntk for something better than so be it. > > I am wondering if AlpT is still here, and if his opinion of the > viability of ntk has changed, A short google reveals that he is now a > professor of mathematics, and although he's been uninvolved for many > years now, he is the one who truly understands the ins and outs out > the routing algorithm, something that I can't say I entirely do. (I > think I get the general idea, but I don't think I know the > mathematical implications of the path finding algorithms as much as he > does, or as much as I would like to) >
Last time I checked his LinkedIn profile, he was pursuing his PhD for the last two years at Cambridge but he has not yet achieved that. I believe that he has moved on from Ntk. http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=61989923&locale=en_US&trk=tyah2 > > On 12/07/13 13:39, Carlos Ferreira wrote: > > > > > > > > On 12 July 2013 12:01, <[email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > > First of all, let it be philosophical. Software is not only about > > technical stuff, otherwise, why don't we code free drivers for > > nuclear weapons? We are (or should be) human, not robots. > > > > As I said before (it was me with a missconfiguratin in .muttrc) > > start by changing yourself. If you can't get out of facebook non of > > your friends will. The best (even the only) way of changing > > people's minds is being an example to them. Want to get your > > friends out of facebook? Get out of it. And stay firm. If you > > really believe that people should stop using facebook, why the hell > > do you go back to it? Are you a sheep following the mass like most > > of the people? Only dead fish follow the current. > > > > > > I only use Facebook to stay in contact with some friends. I more of > > a IM guy with a gigantic contact list that has been kept over the > > years. This is my main way to stay in contact with friends that are > > far away. > > > > > > > > I've had to fight against the fucking Winbugs almost-monopoly in > > the 3 years I've spent at university, because teachers didn't use > > Linux and didn't want to learn alternatives to the software they > > were used to teach. But I stayed firm and refused to use winbugs at > > all, and in the end I even got other 3 mates to change to > > GNU/Linux, just by being a fucking example to them. I didn't even > > need to talk shit about winbugs, I just used Linux. > > > > > > Good for you. At my university we are all Linux because it is > > impossible to do what we do with Windows (and I mean, work with > > network protocols). Despite that, I still use Windows for other > > things (Office and stuff) Why? Because its a job requirement and my > > co-workers use it and prefer to use it. I respect that and I have > > adapted to the situation. I have no problem in working in a windows > > environment if required and I don't bitch about it. > > > > > > > > You ain't changing nothing talking to people if you don't change > > yourself. If you want change, Do It Yourself. It's hard as fuck, > > yeah, but sacrifice is what makes things valuable. > > > > Whatever you said about anarcho-capitalism I don't care, I'm plain > > anarchist. > > > > > > I respect that. Its an ideology. > > > > > > > > I don't know what momentum you're talking about because there is > > none right now. Be patient. Netsukuku is not like Tor or I2P. It's > > seeks something similar, but in a way more difficult way, so it's > > normal that it's more difficult to make people use it, but just > > keep working, and using it yourself. And close that damn facebook > > account, I bet you don't need it at all. > > > > > > Like I said, I use facebook to keep in contact with friends. I > > adapted to the situation and because of that, I maintained the > > contact. I have no problem in using Facebook. > > > > > > This is not a question about us or about us changing the world. > > Its about other people wanting to change. You cannot expect other > > people to go after a new thing (netsukuku) just because its > > considered by a few "the right way to go". The people need to enter > > such system voluntarily otherwise they will just be dragging > > themselves. Its like choosing "the red pill" when in fact, they > > want "the blue pill", but they just don't know yet because they > > don't really know "how deep the rabbit hole goes..." The change > > must be shown first so that the will makes the change from within. > > > > Also, these people are not sheeps, they are persons just like us, > > it just happens that they have different interests and different > > priorities. We should also respect that. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- Gdrooid > > > > On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:24:31AM +0100, Carlos Ferreira wrote: > >> Ok this thread is starting to get philosophical but let me try > >> to > > put it the > >> technical path. > >> > >> Convincing people to change is very difficult because of the > > resistance and > >> drag effect. Take a look at what happened with G+ and Facebook. > >> G+ > > is a total > >> failure for the simple fact that very little people were using > >> it. > > I use > >> Facebook and I have a G+ account that I never use. Why? Because > >> my > > friends are > >> at Facebook. The more friends I have on facebook the more > > difficult it is for > >> me to change to G+ simply because none of my friends are there. > > Even if I > >> manage to convince some of them to change, the time effect will > > undo-it simply > >> because they end up changing back to Facebook because most of > > their friends are > >> using Facebook. > >> > >> It's a mesh-effect and the same can be compared to Netsukuku and > >> the traditional Internet. In order to establish a gigantic > >> network > > with netsuku, > >> people need to be convinced to at least try and stay for > >> awhile, > > in order to > >> achieve a critical mass that will fight the tendency for people > >> to > > switch back > >> and maintain the users interest in using netsukuku. Its > >> basically > > the chicken > >> and the egg dilemma. Why would anyone want to use netsukuku if > >> no > > one around is > >> using netsukuku? I ask myself what would I need to convince a > >> neighbour to join my > > netsukuku > >> piece of network. I would need to convince him to buy a decent > > router (€€€), > >> convince him that he would be able to do at least some of the > > things that he > >> does on the internet (difficult but achievable) and convince him > > to maintain > >> it. This is easier for the l33ts of the telecommunications world > > but very hard > >> to achieve for the rest of the people and face it, there aren't > >> many telecommunications l33ts out their. > >> > >> Even anarcho-capitalists like Jeff Berwick from the Dollar > > Vigilante strongly > >> support the todays internet mainly because is composed by > >> hundreds > > of private > >> corporations, interconnected amongst themselves. > >> > >> I think that "spreading the word" is as important as > > "writing > >> the code". Also, the momentum needs to be kept, otherwise > > time will end up > >> killing it. -- > >> > >> Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications > >> Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]> MSN Contact -> [email protected] > >> <mailto:[email protected]> Skype & GTalk -> > >> [email protected] > > <mailto:[email protected]> > >> LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira > > > >> _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing > >> list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing > > list [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute > > Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > MSN Contact -> carlosmf.pt <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com > > <http://gmail.com> Skype & GTalk -> carlosmf.pt > > <http://carlosmf.pt>@gmail.com <http://gmail.com> LinkedIn -> > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira > > > > > > _______________________________________________ Netsukuku mailing > > list [email protected] > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJR4Bn9AAoJELGGH8ff/6zf9twIALDL8CmijMM0MZ3fXJ+PExbh > R4/5+axqO9XncrgeaD8W4+8qTk6Vlaau3m8vkxZ0No0dbDqOAe0X23y/M2c1KSK6 > Nqg6D+UCu1S1EX6V3lpr+CPNh9g1xKOzl/vh2kZ6DUoOBbQEQrt6vtwQypIFPSSC > zSr4XU0pYUh/n+HLMC37Ug4M9mv56PPh/O4NulVaZS6KUSx4QsGhaRkoZXpYSRrw > Kv6H2HL0KUBzZgoiUaY0xjIcdxCIENinC3aPXNXIuVHamo4uekus/NGqIoQdlIYq > P/DFtHQYdhyw+MyhYzbesCn+XpyX8wzUHkd1DOAnUy3+QieI1X7rFY+GRyBSpEo= > =5v5v > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > Netsukuku mailing list > [email protected] > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/netsukuku > -- Carlos Miguel Ferreira Researcher at Telecommunications Institute Aveiro - Portugal Work E-mail - [email protected] MSN Contact -> [email protected] Skype & GTalk -> [email protected] LinkedIn -> http://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosmferreira
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