See below,


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Karavidas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Protel EDA Forum'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2002 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] So sue me ...(was:Crunch time?)

~ ~ ~               <=== I'm getting tired or writing "snip" ::)

> Well I think ATS throws a new monkey wrench into the pic. Before ATS, we
> got 6 good service pack out of them and the whole time they were not
> collecting for them. Yes, a solid argument can be made for "I paid for
> those service packs up front when I bought the buggy software." But they
> didn't have to release them OR add features to them. I think the
> development efforts since SP6 was creating DXP. I'm not sure why ATS
> came along with it, but they do have finite resources and someone
> thought DXP would be better for the company than SP7. (Probably because
> they couldn't sell SP7 and could sell DXP)

Actually, while you may not have seen it from your perspective, I believe
that the 6 Service Packs were probably aimed at new customers and potential
new customers at the time, and were necessary to keep any "bad press" from
getting started or any that existed from getting out of hand.

If a customer doesn't think that you are supporting him, he is not going to
buy another seat, or recommend a purchase to someone else. (I think that
this very important to remember this at this point in time with everything
that is going on right now.)

A major part of any sales are preceded by contact and discussion with
current users, and without all of those Service Packs, I would guess there
would have been monumentally less sales of new seats both to existing as
well as new customers.

Also I think that it is reasonable to conclude that potential customers have
been looking into this forum to get an idea about any problems and support,
since it has been accessible directly from the Protel / Altium  web page for
some time, and other users would also direct potential buyers here.

When you take all of this into account, I would actually say that all of
those Service Packs really and truly have been paid for.

>From this perspective, you might actually even say that even those who may
have thought that they were getting the "free ride", were in fact "paying"
for the Service Packs.

The "paid up front" argument is also very valid.

If you pay for something and it does not work, it should be fixed, whether
it takes 1, 6, 7, or 10 or 100 Service Packs, period.

> Post ATS makes it complicated for them and users because IMO, I think
> ATS would require Protel to do SP7 or some other concession towards DXP.

Actually, more on this aspect of ATS in another time and place.

~ ~ ~

> Sure, I think they should do something: Either offer a SP7, or modify
> ATS, or make DXP rock!

I agree, but the problem is that DXP needs to "rock!" right now, today, and
in the absence of that in the immediately foreseeable future, we are stuck
with the whats' left, only I would rephrase it as SP7 AND modify ATS.

~ ~ ~

> How many times are you going to reference the EULA? I never one
> mentioned it in my post.

Actually, I wrote this post on the Design Aids issue in direct response to
your comments on EULAs in an earlier post of yours from Saturday (I am just
slow in catching up):


Fred, I wasn't defending the practice of people shipping buggy software.
I was merely pointing out it happens a lot and I don't think it merits
the talk about "...violates the ethic of..." What, are you going to sue
them? Read the EULA. Read any EULA. The most you'll get is your money
back for the product, but you'd probably have a hard time with that if
you've worked with it for years and have successfully churned out


I may have misunderstood something here, but this was the catalyst for my
writing up the whole Design Aids Bankruptcy story.

For quite some time now I have been seeing occasional statements here in the
forum that in essence state that there is no legal or other recourse against
Altium and that we as customers and users are totally at their mercy.

Well, I obviously disagree with this assessment, and I have in fact even
replied to a few of these posts in the past with a quick reference to having
put Design Aids out of business, although I have waited until your comment
here above to take the time to try and write the story up.

It really and truly is a facinating story, but I have tried to be very brief
with it here in these posts in the forum since it is somewhat off topic.

Anyway, onwards and upwards.

Thanks for your comments,


* Tracking #: 67AC4BAF8E9C944CA2A35E2155C77A42BD57AA8B

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