Re: Now about JNDI

[Paulo Gaspar]

Also, there is a load of simple (mostly in-memory) open source JNDI
implementations. Several others with Apache compatible licenses too.
If you want to make something new, that's not it either.

Good luck,
Paulo
Noel J. Bergman wrote:

What about JNDI libs? Is it been built as part of Geronimo, or is there a
single project to keep it´s developement?


See http://incubator.apache.org/directory/

	--- Noel

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RE: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

[Paulo Gaspar]

Same here. (although I am glad I am not as popular as you! 300???!!!)

I was getting afraid that some servers would just start blocking my
email from this address... but this got to such a dimension that I
am sure all sysadmins must know how it works by now.

There was a time I thought I was really somehow infected, but I am
offline during weekends and I just get too much warnings from
antivirus email filters on Monday.

So, people: just get your machine offline for a while if you use
Outlook and have this kind of doubt.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: sexta-feira, 27 de Junho de 2003 17:48
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
>
>
> That is exactly what happens with this particular worm.  If your address
> is in the address book of someone who gets infected, not only do *you*
> start to receive the messages, messages with forged "from" headers with
> your name on them also go out.  Then, the volume of messages is made worse
> by all of those "helpful" spam filters that catch the fact that the virus
> is included, and return a notification to the (forged) sender.
>
> Obscuring email addresses in the archives would have zero impact on this
> particular problem.
>
> Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail)


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RE: Linux Magazine article

[Paulo Gaspar]

Jon's predictions never became truth...
...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article
>
>...
>
> Some history info:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=2
>
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)


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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

> yeah. And it's got a template language called Smarty which is *way*
> better than velocity!!!

>From the problems we are having with Smarty, it does not seem good 
enough even for a Alpha release.
=:oP


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Leo Simons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 10:04 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> > > Is that site generated by maven ? ;))
> > > 
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > 
> > Anakia
> > 
> > I hate to admit it here, but the output is .html files which are then
> > processed through PHP. I'm going to be moving away from even 
> using Anakia
> > and just using PHP.
> > 
> > PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design 
> ever, but you can
> > get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there 
> is no way in
> > hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP.
> > 
> > =)
> 
> yeah. And it's got a template language called Smarty which is *way*
> better than velocity!!!
> 
> :P
> 
> - Leo, who figured there was another flamefest when he saw all those
> e-mails and is now eagerly waiting for a picture of a crossdressing
> jon...
> 
> 



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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

> PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design ever, 
> but you can
> get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there 
> is no way in
> hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP.

Same here. I am starting to have stuff that must be done in PHP
too and those are exactly my thoughts.

But I still make weird stuff faster with my Java thing which
includes using Velocity + Pnuts.

(Pnuts is a Java based scripting language that can compile to Java
 bytecode on the fly:
   http://javacenter.sun.co.jp/pnuts/
)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 12:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> on 7/17/02 3:43 PM, "Martin van den Bemt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Is that site generated by maven ? ;))
> > 
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> 
> Anakia
> 
> I hate to admit it here, but the output is .html files which are then
> processed through PHP. I'm going to be moving away from even using Anakia
> and just using PHP.
> 
> PHP is terribly fugly and encourages the worst code design ever, 
> but you can
> get a lot more done with it in a short amount of time and there 
> is no way in
> hell I would ever lower myself to using JSP.
> 
> =)
> 
> -jon



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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

It really is to perfect! I didn't notice that the dress really is 
pink!
=:oD

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 2:11 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> Whatever!
> 
> Just give it a tone of pink with some graphics app and make a nice
> background motive out of it!
> 
> Or is the dress already pink???
> =:o)
> 
> It sure is too perfect! hehehe
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:44 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> > 
> > 
> > on 7/17/02 4:30 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > Nope, but if it helps making him look better, I have a pic of 
> > Jon wearing a
> > > pink ballerina dress...
> > > 
> > > (amazing what Halloween can do!)
> > > 
> > >   Pier
> > 
> > That is a good picture...my 'package' looks HUGE!
> > 
> > The Jakarta women will want me.
> > 
> > Pier, I have pictures of you that I can blackmail you with as well...=)
> > 
> > -jon
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

And even better is there is a revenge:
 - Lots of pictures!

=:o)

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:58 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> Tool late ;) We want to see that picture..
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> On Thu, 2002-07-18 at 01:54, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > on 7/17/02 4:30 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Pier, I have pictures of you that I can blackmail you with as 
> well...=)
> > 
> > Okokokok :) I'll just shut up now! :) I swear I'm not going to do that
> > anymore! :) :) :) :)
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > --
> > [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion 
> of different
> > sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the 
> power of C with
> > the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - 
> San Francisco]
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

Whatever!

Just give it a tone of pink with some graphics app and make a nice
background motive out of it!

Or is the dress already pink???
=:o)

It sure is too perfect! hehehe


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:44 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> on 7/17/02 4:30 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Nope, but if it helps making him look better, I have a pic of 
> Jon wearing a
> > pink ballerina dress...
> > 
> > (amazing what Halloween can do!)
> > 
> >   Pier
> 
> That is a good picture...my 'package' looks HUGE!
> 
> The Jakarta women will want me.
> 
> Pier, I have pictures of you that I can blackmail you with as well...=)
> 
> -jon



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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html

With a file name like this, I miss a "pink hearts" background.

Does anyone have one of those to contribute?


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 9:03 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> on 7/17/02 11:21 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > ROTFL
> > 
> > BTW, nice touch that photo!
> > =;o)
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/love.html
> 
> Amazing what a symlink can do.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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RE: localhost:8080 vs localhost???

[Paulo Gaspar]

ROTFL

BTW, nice touch that photo!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 6:13 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: localhost:8080 vs localhost???
> 
> 
> "Henri Yandell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > [...] we should be getting some more powerful mail list 
> servers, just in case.
> 
> Not needed. Trust me.
> 
> Pier (the mail master)
> 
> 
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RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002

[Paulo Gaspar]

GREAT job Rob.

I like the level of detail very much. 

For me it should be no less detailed: if it is to save me the hassle of 
following a list, the newsletter MUST have some detail. I am not 
expecting a management digest - I am a developer and not a manager.

I am talking in the first person but I am guessing that we do not have
many of those managers that like to avoid the technical details around.

The mail archive URLs are also very nice.


Regards,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Rob Oxspring [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:41 AM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
> 
> 
> Thanks Erik,
> 
> I think its gonna take a few of us keeping it high priority to get the
> ball rolling properly - it took me long enough to get around to this one
> (though whats 6 months between software engineers) - i.e. although a
> calendar alarm has been set for next month, prods and reminders are
> definitely appreciated :)
> 
> You are probably right re the level of detail - its partially just my
> style showing through but also because I thought it'd look a bit empty
> with just general, ant and commons on there.  I think a lot of this sort
> of thing will vary with the style of the individual "column" authors and
> the level of activity within each project, IMHO this variation should
> make it a more interesting read and should be encouraged - at least for
> the first few months while we don't know what's best.
> 
> Rob
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: 5 June 2002 23:45
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
> > 
> > 
> > Rob,
> > 
> > Very nice.  I've been keeping this idea high on my to-do list 
> > and I'm glad to see you finally get to it.
> > 
> > This is more detailed than future ones probably should be, 
> > and that would likely be the case when other projects get 
> > incorporated anyway.
> > 
> > Great job, and you can count on me assisting you with this in 
> > any way possible in the future.
> > 
> > Erik
> > 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Rob Oxspring" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:57 AM
> > Subject: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
> > 
> > 
> > > Jakarta Newsletter
> > > ==
> > > Issue: 0
> > > Date: May 2002
> > >
> > > A Jakarta newsletter has been mentioned a few times on the general 
> > > list
> > and
> > > so I figured it was high time that one was produced. The 
> > discussions 
> > > previously seemed to settle on a monthly affair with a a regular 
> > > change of editorship. The aim is that for the future, 
> > different people 
> > > will take
> > over
> > > different sections for a limited period so that nobody gets bogged 
> > > down
> > with
> > > the chore unless they want to - some lists may have a series of 
> > > volunteers step up, other projects may choose to add newsletter 
> > > editing as a regular responsibility for each of their active 
> > > committers.
> > >
> > > Hopefully this will lead to a dynamic monthly newsletter 
> > that can be 
> > > sent out on the announcement list (or a new newsletter one) 
> > and try to 
> > > keep people informed of what all the projects are up to 
> > without having 
> > > to
> > monitor
> > > all the projects
> > >
> > > This issue is entirely edited my myself rather than a set of 
> > > developers
> > and
> > > as a direct result is limited to the dev lists I monitor properly. 
> > > With
> > luck
> > > others will help out future issues providing a varied style 
> > and more 
> > > complete content.
> > >
> > > Rob Oxspring
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > General
> > > ===
> > >
> > > This month saw the first ever veto of a new committer in the Tomcat 
> > > subproject. [1] The resulting threads from this discussed how much a
> > person
> > > should have to do before being given committer rights [2] and what 
> > > they should have had to do. This in turn lead to a proposed 
> > rethink of 
> > > the current rights and roles at Jakarta - can non-coders be 
> > > committers? should people be

RE: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002

[Paulo Gaspar]

+1
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:42 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002
> 
> 
> On Thu, 6 Jun 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> > I would actually prefer no peer review (or at least no binding peer 
> > review). If people want to have a say what goes into it then 
> they should 
> > get off their butts and write something for it ;)
> 
> +1
> 
> Costin
> 
> > 
> > I am sure that the writers will be at responsible enough (and 
> if not we can 
> > yank
> >   their privlidges to post it to announcement list)
> > 
> > At 04:19 PM 6/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> > >"Rob Oxspring" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jakarta Newsletter
> > > > ==
> > > > Issue: 0
> > > > Date: May 2002
> > >
> > >Great job... I'd like to propose the following: peer review on 
> this mailing
> > >list, vote request, and then send it off on announcements... 
> This can be
> > >done every month if Rob is willing to keep up with the pace of 
> my flamewars.
> > >
> > > Pier
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: 

> 
> 
> 
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Paulo Gaspar]

Despite all the arguments I still can NOT see why it should be 
more complicated than this (Sam + Jon definitions).


Probably the system is already as good as it can get.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 5:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

...

> > 
> > A "developer" can suggest a change.
> > 
> > A "committer" can make it happen.
> > 
> > - Sam Ruby
> 
> "Anyone" can suggest a change.
> 
> A "developer" can submit a patch.
> 
> A "committer" can make it happen.
> 
> ;-)
> 
> -jon


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

Do you want a list of other funny "channels"?
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:19 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. 
> 
> 
> Sorry, didn't intend to "throw" the whole mail at you.
> 
> I haven't been around as long as you (probably a little over a year),
> but this is one of my favorite lists.  It's far more entertaining than
> television :-)
> 
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 10:00 AM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: You guys are so funny.
> > 
> > Hey Jeff,
> > 
> > 
> > I can agree with all you say but I don't understand why you throw
> > this on my direction.
> > 
> > I have been defending the existence of competing projects since the
> > Tomcat 3.3 versus Tomcat 4 wars until my most recent posts at the
> > commons-dev list.
> > 
> > Maybe you do not follow the same lists I do. Maybe not for long
> > enough.
> > 
> > If you read Jon's postings along this thread, you will also be
> > better informed about whom has a thin skin problem.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:59 AM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: RE: You guys are so funny.
> > >
> > >
> > > > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > >
> > > > Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that
> > > > I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly
> > > > to those that agree with him.
> > >
> > > For the record, I've even committed the cardinal sin of creating a
> MVC
> > > webapp framework which is not Turbine (http://mav.sourceforge.net),
> and
> > > Jon is still pretty friendly to me :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > You guys all need to lighten up.  It's not like this is a workplace
> > > where everyone is competing for promotions or something.  How this
> > > social game plays out isn't going to affect your paycheck or the
> people
> > > who hang out with you or whether or not you're going to get laid
> this
> > > weekend.
> > >
> > > A fair amount of banter is healthy in any community.  Poking fun at
> each
> > > other, lighthearted insults, competition, and yes conflict are a
> > > standard part of any sitcom production.  Sure, there's a time for
> "we
> > > all love each other" mushy-type stuff but if it was like that all
> the
> > > time it would get boring really damn fast.  It is my observation
> that
> > > Apache works because of thick skins, not because of peace, love, and
> > > happiness vibes.
> > >
> > > There's nothing wrong with a limited number of competing projects
> under
> > > one roof.  It's probably even a good idea.  It's not like Maven and
> > > Centipede are competing implementations of the same API - this is
> pretty
> > > much a research field, and it's impossible to categorically predict
> at
> > > this point whether it is better to extend or generate the Gump
> > > descriptors, or to use XSLT or DVSL, etc.  Until the science becomes
> > > engineering, this mad driving need (among some) to "merge merge
> merge"
> > > is a pathology.
> > >
> > > Let it be.  Use the software you like.  Write the software you like.
> > > Berate people over the truly important things, like choice of text
> > > editor :-)
> > >
> > > Jeff Schnitzer
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > ed is the *standard* text editor
> > 
> > 
> > --
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RE: Maven is growing

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok. I am glad you understood it,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 8:40 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Maven is growing
> 
> 
> On 5/4/02 2:03 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >> And there is.  Find it.
> >> 
> >> geir
> > 
> > Maybe I did. But it is NOT your balance - it is mine.
> 
> We each do things our own way.  Maybe we can put this thread to bed?
> 
> geir
> 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> > 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:28 PM
> >> To: Jakarta General List
> >> Subject: Re: Maven is growing
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 5/4/02 1:08 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to
> >>> say "Amen" to everything he says and the way he says it.
> >>> 
> >>> There must be a balance somewhere.
> >> 
> >> And there is.  Find it.
> >> 
> >> geir
> >> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Have fun,
> >>> Paulo Gaspar
> >>> 
> >>>> -Original Message-
> >>>> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> I propose this alternative:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> http://www.krysalis.org/jon/
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> ;-)
> >>>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> Yep - that is the one I was going to find.  I think it's right up
> >>>> there with
> >>>> the other one to help people come to terms with Jon...
> > ...
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Geir Magnusson Jr.
> Research & Development, Adeptra Inc.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +1-203-247-1713
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: Maven is growing

[Paulo Gaspar]

> And there is.  Find it.
> 
> geir

Maybe I did. But it is NOT your balance - it is mine.

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:28 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Maven is growing
> 
> 
> On 5/4/02 1:08 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to
> > say "Amen" to everything he says and the way he says it.
> > 
> > There must be a balance somewhere.
> 
> And there is.  Find it.
> 
> geir
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I propose this alternative:
> >>> 
> >>> http://www.krysalis.org/jon/
> >>> 
> >>> ;-)
> >>> 
> >> 
> >> Yep - that is the one I was going to find.  I think it's right up
> >> there with
> >> the other one to help people come to terms with Jon...
...

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RE: Maven is growing

[Paulo Gaspar]

Andy, I generally agree with what says in the page you pointed to.

When I disagree with what Jon says I push back and when I agree I
am not afraid of saying so.

If you read my recent postings here you will notice I generally
agree with Jon about the Velocity vs. XSLT issue. OTOH I tend to
disagree on stopping some project because there is already a 
similar one.

And now we both think Maven is a good thing, although similar
projects already existed.


I don't feel I go after Jon like a mad dog. I just feel that I am
not afraid of disagreeing with him.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 7:31 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Maven is growing
> 
> 
> Ehh, just don't take it seriously when you go after him like a mad dog.
> I find myself balancing between saying amen to everything he says and 
> going after him like a mad dog.  Perhaps I over did it this time...oh
> well.
> 
> always have a real angle...
> 
> collaboration and integration rulez:
> 
> http://www.krysalis.org/alt/cents/index.html
> 
> ^
> created by the maven module (aka "cent") for centipede.
> you gotta love that.  
> 
> I'll be joining the maven list for a short while to get a few bugs 
> in maven fixed (absolute links being interpreted as relative).
> 
> isn't that delicious?
> 
> -Andy 
> 
> PS Centipede docs are well on there way to being up to snuff.
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-04 at 13:08, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to
> > say "Amen" to everything he says and the way he says it.
> > 
> > There must be a balance somewhere.
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > I propose this alternative:
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.krysalis.org/jon/
> > > > 
> > > > ;-)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Yep - that is the one I was going to find.  I think it's right up 
> > > there with
> > > the other one to help people come to terms with Jon...
> > > 
> > > ...
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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RE: Maven is growing

[Paulo Gaspar]

It is as stupid to go after Jon like a mad dog as it is stupid to
say "Amen" to everything he says and the way he says it.

There must be a balance somewhere.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 5:08 PM
> 
> 
> On 5/4/02 10:45 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I propose this alternative:
> > 
> > http://www.krysalis.org/jon/
> > 
> > ;-)
> > 
> 
> Yep - that is the one I was going to find.  I think it's right up 
> there with
> the other one to help people come to terms with Jon...
> 
> ...


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

Hey Jeff,


I can agree with all you say but I don't understand why you throw
this on my direction.

I have been defending the existence of competing projects since the
Tomcat 3.3 versus Tomcat 4 wars until my most recent posts at the
commons-dev list.

Maybe you do not follow the same lists I do. Maybe not for long 
enough.

If you read Jon's postings along this thread, you will also be 
better informed about whom has a thin skin problem.



Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, May 04, 2002 11:59 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. 
> 
> 
> > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > 
> > Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that
> > I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly
> > to those that agree with him.
> 
> For the record, I've even committed the cardinal sin of creating a MVC
> webapp framework which is not Turbine (http://mav.sourceforge.net), and
> Jon is still pretty friendly to me :-)
> 
> 
> You guys all need to lighten up.  It's not like this is a workplace
> where everyone is competing for promotions or something.  How this
> social game plays out isn't going to affect your paycheck or the people
> who hang out with you or whether or not you're going to get laid this
> weekend.
> 
> A fair amount of banter is healthy in any community.  Poking fun at each
> other, lighthearted insults, competition, and yes conflict are a
> standard part of any sitcom production.  Sure, there's a time for "we
> all love each other" mushy-type stuff but if it was like that all the
> time it would get boring really damn fast.  It is my observation that
> Apache works because of thick skins, not because of peace, love, and
> happiness vibes.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with a limited number of competing projects under
> one roof.  It's probably even a good idea.  It's not like Maven and
> Centipede are competing implementations of the same API - this is pretty
> much a research field, and it's impossible to categorically predict at
> this point whether it is better to extend or generate the Gump
> descriptors, or to use XSLT or DVSL, etc.  Until the science becomes
> engineering, this mad driving need (among some) to "merge merge merge"
> is a pathology.
> 
> Let it be.  Use the software you like.  Write the software you like.
> Berate people over the truly important things, like choice of text
> editor :-)
> 
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ed is the *standard* text editor


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

> People who are clearly without a clue.
> Hypocrites.

But then it seems that any one that disagrees with you gets included
in one (or both) of the above categories.

And you often don't recognize these ones even if they bite you:
> Real suggestions for improvement.
> Intelligent discussion.

Several did already bite during this thread. Did you notice them?


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 2:27 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: You guys are so funny.
>
>
> on 5/2/02 4:57 PM, "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > As I tried to point out in my parenthetical remark -- it wasn't
> the Maven
> > committers who started this whole thing ... it was our favorite
> iconoclast
> > himself (Jon), who seems to believe that anything that makes him happy
> > should make everybody happy, and anyone with contrary opinions
> is just not
> > with it enough to be worthy of being listened to.
> >
> > Craig
>
> I listen to the following:
>
> Code.
> Patches.
> Real suggestions for improvement.
> Intelligent discussion.
>
> I don't listen to the following:
>
> Flame wars about technologies used.
> Whiny people who can't learn a new technology.
> Whiny people who only use 'standards'.
> People who are clearly without a clue.
> Hypocrites.
>
> My original posting was simply trying to encourage people to adopt Maven
> because I think it is a cool technology that can save hundreds of hours of
> development time and headaches. It can help unify us to survive the
> perceived M$ .Net invasion. It can help us gain more popularity among our
> users because our tools are easy to build and install.
>
> -jon


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I got proven wrong from the 
> point of view
> that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3
> distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4.

Uau! You already got HALF way.

You just still don't understand that T4 probably has more resources
thanks to T3 staying at Jakarta - with the collaboration that is 
going on. If T3 had been banned from Jakarta, maybe most of those
that are collaborating would have gone elsewhere with T3.


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 10:21 PM
> 
> on 5/2/02 12:23 PM, "GOMEZ Henri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> >> Costin, just like with Tomcat 3 vs. Tomcat 4. We all learned
> >> that you can't
> >> force projects to work together. Nor can you vote -1 on it. Given our
> >> history, I'm really surprised to hear you trying to argue for
> >> something like
> >> that. You hypocrite.
> > 
> > Again and again, the same bullshits.
> > 
> > Jon, take a closer look into tomcat-dev and you'll see that
> > projects could works together, using others ways in JTC,
> > coyote, jk/jk2, are the proof that tomcat developpers from
> > 4.x and 3.3.x could works together...
> 
> Sure, the developers are working together on *some* stuff, but the core
> products they are not and my original Tomcat arguments were that 
> it was lame
> to have two different containers. I got proven wrong from the 
> point of view
> that enough people wanted T3 to survive. I got proven right that T3
> distracted a limited set of resources (ie: people) from T4.
> 
> Centipede is to Tomcat 3 as Maven is to Tomcat 4.
> 
> You can't force the developers of T3 to work on T4.
> 
> -jon


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to 
> get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.

Costin,


Being you quite a brilliant guy, I don't understand two troubles
you seem to have:

 1) Getting too upset about what Jon says (Jon says a lot of crap);

 2) Blindly accepting a standard just because someone says it is
a standard.


A standard only stands if you accept it. Example: almost no one
really knows anymore what the Standard Pascal programming 
language was. Most people that know Pascal, know Turbo-Pascal or
(now) Delphi.

In the last 10 years, most commercial Pascal compilers claimed 
to be Turbo Pascal compatible and not ISO or ANSI or whatever is
the Pascal standard's name.

These are the standards that matter: those chosen by their 
users an not by some committee.


XSLT as a template mechanism is a piece of crap. I tried several
alternatives and I got better productivity with a much smoother 
learning curve with almost all of them.

The point is that someone should not have to be a rocket 
scientist just to build a damn template. Since designers...
 - Generally (all I know) hate XSLT and love Velocity;
 - Are completely dependent on me with XSLT but are almost 
   completely independent maintaining Velocity templates;
 - Are much better designing web pages than me...

... and since Velocity can do all that is needed with a fraction
of the trouble one gets from XSLT, there must be something wrong
with this XSLT standard.


Maybe XSLT is good for something else. Not HTML templates.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:27 PM
> To: Jon Scott Stevens
> 
> ...
> 
> I do that because I believe standards are essential - even if 
> 'simpler' pet-solutions exist. Standards are the only way to 
> get people to work togheter -  and DocBook, HTML, XSLT are
> the standards.
> 
> ...
> 
> Costin


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RE: You guys are so funny.

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!

Sorry Steven, I know well both XSLT and Velocity and Velocity
sure is more productive.

Of course that from the way Jon talks about me you can tell that
I do not always agree with him - Jon seems to only be friendly 
to those that agree with him.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Steven Noels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 9:34 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: You guys are so funny. 
> 
> 
> Jon wrote:
> 
> > People
> > --
> > 
> > Needless to say, the attitudes here are becoming more and 
> > more familiar.
> > Andrew reminds me of the early days of dealing with Peter 
> > Donald (credit to
> > Peter for eventually coming to his senses...I think joining 
> > the PMC helped).
> > Steven reminds me of Paulo. Deja vu!
> > 
> > :-)
> 
> Cool. I like being funny :-)
> 
> Hey, Paulo! Let's meet! We can become friends and switch xsl:templates!
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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So, Google uses Tomcat and Apache SOAP...

[Paulo Gaspar]

http://www.beblogging.com/blog/20020417-221452

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all therereally is a problem

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, I leave it in your capable hands!

Thanks,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 6:59 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all
> therereally is a problem
>
>
> It is actually a problem on Daedalus, then... Moving discussion to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] :)
>
> Pier
>
> "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Ok, I was convinced by Pier too soon.
> >
> > There really is a problem since the 553 error comes from
> > the Apache server. Our (KRANKIKOM) server just reported
> > that error back to me.
> >
> > So, some SPAM filter does not let me answer too many
> > webmaster emails in a short time.
> > =:o/
> >
> >
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:40 PM
> >> To: Jakarta General List
> >> Subject: RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
> >>
> >>
> >> LOL!
> >> (Yeah, laughing about silly me!)
> >>
> >> Thanks Pier,
> >> Paulo
> >>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM
> >>> To: Jakarta General List
> >>> Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's
> problem... :)
> >>> (look the "From" header below! :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Pier
> >>>
> >>> "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam.
> >>>>
> >>>> Something must be missing at that spam filter.
> >>>> This way it is hard to play "webmaster".
> >>>>
> >>>> Error email follows
> >>>>
> >>>> Have fun,
> >>>> Paulo Gaspar
> >>>>
> >>>>> -Original Message-
> >>>>> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM
> >>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>>> Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200
> >>>>> from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -
> >>>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>- Transcript of session follows -
> >>>>> ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.:
> >>>>>>>> DATA
> >>>>> <<< 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded.  See
> >>>>> http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1)
> >>>>> 554 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... Service unavailable
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail:
> >> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>
>> --
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RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem - after all there really is a problem

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, I was convinced by Pier too soon.

There really is a problem since the 553 error comes from 
the Apache server. Our (KRANKIKOM) server just reported
that error back to me.

So, some SPAM filter does not let me answer too many 
webmaster emails in a short time.
=:o/


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:40 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
> 
> 
> LOL!
> (Yeah, laughing about silly me!)
> 
> Thanks Pier,
> Paulo
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
> > 
> > 
> > Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's problem... :)
> > (look the "From" header below! :)
> > 
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam.
> > > 
> > > Something must be missing at that spam filter.
> > > This way it is hard to play "webmaster".
> > > 
> > > Error email follows
> > > 
> > > Have fun,
> > > Paulo Gaspar
> > > 
> > >> -Original Message-
> > >> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM
> > >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200
> > >> from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged)
> > >> 
> > >>- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -
> > >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> 
> > >>- Transcript of session follows -
> > >> ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.:
> > >>>>> DATA
> > >> <<< 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded.  See
> > >> http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1)
> > >> 554 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... Service unavailable
> > >> 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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RE: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL!
(Yeah, laughing about silly me!)

Thanks Pier,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:15 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [HELP!!!] - Webmaster spam filter problem
> 
> 
> Not something we can take care of It's krankikom.de's problem... :)
> (look the "From" header below! :)
> 
> 
> Pier
> 
> "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My mails (as webmaster) were filtered as spam.
> > 
> > Something must be missing at that spam filter.
> > This way it is hard to play "webmaster".
> > 
> > Error email follows
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Mail Delivery Subsystem [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 1:05 PM
> >> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: Returned mail: Service unavailable
> >> 
> >> 
> >> The original message was received at Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:04:35 +0200
> >> from firewalled-137.krankikom.de [194.77.169.137] (may be forged)
> >> 
> >>- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> 
> >>- Transcript of session follows -
> >> ... while talking to jakarta.apache.org.:
> >>>>> DATA
> >> <<< 553 Spam or junk mail threshold exceeded.  See
> >> http://www.flame.org/qmail/spamjunk.html (#5.7.1)
> >> 554 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... Service unavailable
> >> 
> > --
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FW: Typo in webpage title

[Paulo Gaspar]

Could someone fix this little thing?

The typo is still there. He is talking about the
 tag value.


Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Ernst de Haan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 8:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Typo in webpage title
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> There's a small typo in the title of 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/news.html
> 
> The page is titled: "The Jakarta Site - New and Status"
>^ 's' missing :)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Ernst
> 

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RE: Ant won JavaWorld Editor's Award

[Paulo Gaspar]

> 

Yeah! Maven looks too cool!
=:oD

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:21 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Ant won JavaWorld Editor's Award
> 
> 
> on 4/12/02 8:58 PM, "Jim Azeltine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I just got done using Ant to create the coolest thing I have 
> ever seen. It is
> > going to allow developers (who don't know that much about 
> Java), who are using
> > tools to autogenerate Java code to compile the code and add it 
> to a common
> > jar,
> > ftp the jar (including backing up), set the file permissions, 
> and notifying
> > all
> > of the developer group via email all with one command. Too cool!
> > 
> > James Azeltine
> > Indus International
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
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RE: [VOTE] Switching development to C#

[Paulo Gaspar]

Do you have anything against Fortran or Cobol?

There will be .Net implementations for those, you know? And we could
leverage the power of all those "legacy" academic and enterprise 
programmers.

(I bet there are a lot of Cobol guys getting a lot of free time on
their hands after the Y2K mess.)


Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 10:10 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Switching development to C#
> 
> 
> On Mon, 1 Apr 2002, Marc wrote:
> 
> > Having become convinced by Andy that C# and .NET are the wave of the 
> > future, I'm proposing that we switch poi development to C#.
> > 
> > To the Jakarta community at large: will this affect our status as a 
> > Jakarta project? I mean, I can see where a lot of projects are 
> > eventually going to follow this same path ...
> 
> I'm ok with using .NET, but I think you should use BASIC as language, 
> not C#. .NET is language independent, and other jakarta projects 
> already switched to BASIC. 
> 
> Costin
> 
> 
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RE: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ceki,


What about making clear that commons-logging is only supposed to be
used by other components so that the application developer picks 
the logging API that suits him best?

Do you really believe that all application developers will use 
Log4J? Or do you want to force them into doing that?

Do you have any doubt that lots of companies will follow the policy 
of using the JDK 1.4 Logging API just "because it is the one that 
comes with Java"? 

Do you really think that the persons imposing such decision will 
care about what is good and what is bad?

And then the ones getting the mess will be the developers and the
commons-logging will help those. And will also help them to use
the components/libs that use it.


This sounds like just another of your pro-log4j-anti-anything-else 
campaigns, containing the usual amount of FUD of any blind campaign.


A "blind campaign" is one where the single motivation of the 
campaigner is defending some interest/belief against all others... 
without really trying to SEE or get precise information on what 
those others really are.

The blindness towards the other alternatives tends to grow a 
considerable amount of misinformation on the blind campaigner and,
then, he vigorously spreads it - hence the resulting spread of FUD.


You seem to be following a pattern here, since you are doing just 
the same as you usually do against LogKit, including the 
misinformation bit.

Although both you and Peter turn a bit silly when under the 
influence of another-logger-war, I always notice that you know much
less about LogKit than Peter knows about log4j. (And yes, I know 
both well enough to clearly notice that).

It is sad that you show to be more interested on destroying the 
"competition" than on learning from it. Well, at least you did not
accuse the commons-logging guys from plagiarism just yet, as you 
did about the LogKit guys.


Ceki, I know you are quite smart, constructive and helpful and I 
respect you for that. But when you get in these logging wars, you
don't seem to be the same person.

You could at least try to be well informed and inform well when you
talk about other logging APIs.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar



> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 11:14 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
> 
> 
> At 15:30 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> 
> >I am pro-Log4J.  I wish I lived in that Log4J-only world (until/unless
> >something better came along).  Generally, commons-logging 
> neither encourages
> >nor discourages use of Log4J.  However, I would argue that it _does_
> >encourage Log4J a bit by not forcing a logging implementation war.
> 
> True. It does encourage it, but only initially. On the long run,
> however, people will run into problems with their logging (as is
> happening now). They will say this commons-logging+log4j stuff is too
> complicated, we'll switch to JDK 1.4 logging, at least that does not
> have any CLASSPATH problems.
> 
> >The fact is, JDK 1.4 logging in particular is going to become 
> more and more
> >common over time, and unless someone can summon forth a magic 
> recantation of
> >that JSR, then a component-level interface with popular loggers is
> >necessary.  Otherwise you have to pick, which only services us at the
> >expense of those who use other logger implementations.
> 
> Possible but I would not be that sure.  We will have very strong new
> features in log4j 1.3 (the release after 1.2) which will leave JDK 1.4
> logging even further behind.  Just as importantly, log4j documentation
> is going to get a massive boost with the upcoming log4j book.
> 
> Sun's me-too strategy is bound to fail. The question is whether the
> bigger jakarta community is going to help us defeat JSR47 or stand in
> the way.
> 
> --
> Ceki
> My link of the month: http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/standardization/
> 
 

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RE: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Paulo Gaspar]

Now your motivation is becoming clear.

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 10:18 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Comments on the commons-logging API
> 
> 
> At 15:10 28.03.2002 -0600, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
> >Where is this world where "everyone" uses Log4J?
> 
> That world = (world - jakarta)
> 
> 
> --
> Ceki
> My link of the month: http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/standardization/
> 
> 
> --
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RE: Comments on the commons-logging API

[Paulo Gaspar]

Shouldn't this be posted at the commons-dev list?
Or, at least, ALSO at commons-dev list?

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gulcu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 5:11 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Comments on the commons-logging API
>
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> Given that log4j is such a low-level library, most organizations are
> suspicious to tie their code to log4j, especially considering the new
> logging API in JDK 1.4.
>
> Before going forward, it is appropriate to mention that these two APIs
> are very similar.  The classical usage pattern for log4j is:
>
> ---
>
> import org.apache.log4j.Logger;
>
> public class MyClass {
>final static Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("some.name");
>
> public void foo1() {
>   logger.debug("Hello world.");
> }
>
> public void foo2() {
>   logger.info("Another message.");
>   logger.error("Stop that!", new Exception("The earth is getting
> warmer."));
> }
> }
> ---
>
> As you are well aware by now, one of the important benefits of log4j
> is that it can be configured at run time using configuration scripts.
> You can have hundreds or thousands of log statement but only one or
> two lines of code to configure log4j.
>
> The usage pattern for the JDK 1.4 logging API is:
>
> ---
> import java.util.logging.Logger;
>
> public class MyClass {
> final static Logger logger = Logger.getLogger("test");
>
> public void foo1() {
>   logger.debug("Hello world.");
> }
>
> public void foo2() {
>   logger.info("Another message.");
>   logger.error("Stop that!", new Exception("The earth is getting
> warmer."));
> }
> }
> ---
>
> Do you notice anything similar? The JDK 1.4 logging API also admits
> configuration scripts. Being part of the JDK, the common guess that
> this API will supplant log4j some time in the future.
>
> It is not so easy to write a complete logging API. Users
> come to realize they need the features present in log4j but absent in
> JDK 1.4 logging API.  Moreover, log4j runs with JDK 1.1 or later whereas
> the JDK 1.4 logging API, requires, well, JDK 1.4.  Most users can't
> afford to tie their code to JDK 1.4.
>
> But they need logging and they need it now. A common strategy for
> protecting against future changes and at the same time to benefit from
> existing log4j features is to *wrap* log4j with a custom logging
> API. Log4j actually has support to facilitate such wrappers.
>
> It turns out that such wrappers are not that trivial to write. I
> frequently
> receive email where a user runs into a problem with their wrapper and
> requests help. More often than not, these wrappers are of poor quality
> such that the cost of inactive (or disabled) logging statements is
> multiplied by a factor of 1'000.
>
> Of course, not all wrappers are of poor quality. For example, the
> commons-logging API is rather well implemented. Obviously, there is
> still a cost for the wrapping but it won't be of a huge factor.
>
> The commons-logging API will try to use the JDK 1.4 API if present, or
> the log4j API. The *current* preference is log4j I believe. Neat!
>
> Now, it just happens that the part where most users have difficulty is the
> initialization of the log4j API. Where should the log4j.jar go? Where
> do I put the log4j.properties files?  Can I have different
> web-applications have different log4j configurations?  How do I
> initialize log4j in an application server?  Although there is ample
> literature on the subject, much confusion remains.
>
> The commons-logging API as it wraps multiple logging APIs such
> as Avalon's LogKit, log4j, JDK 1.4 has its own "discovery process".
> Things were confusing before, they will be even more when
> commons-logging API enters "common" usage. With some effort, it might
> start making sense to you. However, your users will not show the same
> perseverance nor enthusiasm.
>
> There will be also unexpected interactions between log4j and the
> commons-logging API. For example, log4j 1.2alpha1 through alpha4 had a
> very subtle bug which caused client code compiled with log4j version
> 1.1.3 to throw exceptions when ran with log4j 1.2alpha. Inversely,
> code compiled with 1.2alpha would crash when ran usin

RE: news@jakarta

[Paulo Gaspar]

> ... [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...

I sure like this one!
=:o)

Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Danny Angus [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 11:28 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: news@jakarta
> 
> 
> Or.. [EMAIL PROTECTED] .. leave those notes you're 
> not sure if
> anyone reads or not.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 9:53 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: news@jakarta
> >
> >
> > On 3/7/02 4:48 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Or call it usefull-tidbits or something :-), gossip@, watercooler@,
> > > the-bar@, coffeshop@, wathever ;-) Something clearly meant for
> > > out of scope things.
> > >
> >
> > How about 'ot@'
> >
> > --
> > Geir Magnusson Jr. 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > System and Software Consulting
> > "He who throws mud only loses ground." - Fat Albert
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 

>


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RE: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[Paulo Gaspar]

Indeed, a very nice group.
=:o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 3:29 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.
>
>
> Congratulations to the new PMC members!  We couldn't ask for a more
> qualified group.  :)
>
> - Morgan
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:02 PM
> Subject: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.
>
>
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >
> >
> > Thanks for voting.
> >
> > We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462
> > votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of
> > 7x75=525 votes).
> >
> > None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found
> > during the verification of the email sender/messages.
> >
> > The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):
> >
> >   Stefan Bodewig
> >   Craig McClanahan
> >   Diane Holt
> >   Conor MacNeill
> >   Geir Magnusson Jr.
> >   Costin Monolache
> >   Sam Ruby
> >
> > The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately
> > and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF
> > board meeting.
> >
> > Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please
> > contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Dw.
> >
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
> > Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
> > Charset: noconv
> >
> > iQCVAwUBPHp8QjGmPZbsFAuBAQHXnAP+Jlfa5oCvFumrlYC07P27FZUL7SkJzML6
> > OlvkCShXJBnsvN5glDkKhzPPLVDZMSuPEXRusT7B08hxoqyzLWhe9AXV2QPx3gUI
> > nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1
> > e1m8VWWhOds=
> > =f3Ef
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
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RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Actually, there is searching. See the "Search Apache Sites" link at:
  http://jakarta.apache.org/

Maybe we need a nice textbox for searching at every page!
(Hey, don't look at mee!)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: James Strachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 1:35 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge)
>
>
> I think one thing this conversation seems to have highlighted is that
> there's plenty of good documentation all over the apache sites, we could
> just do with some more sitemap / indexing / searching features to
> be able to
> find stuff.
>
> (quickly ducking before people think I'm volunteering).
>
> James
> - Original Message -
> From: "Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'Jakarta General List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 12:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge)
>
>
> Ok, thanks a lot, Marc and Jon.
>
> Included are some links from xml.apache.org, luckily they
> resemble Jakarta's
> documents a lot. I know nothing about other Apache projects; I started
> adding links from httpd.apache.org like crazy, but then realized that the
> TOC was losing focus exponentially. Probably, someone else should tackle
> this problem.
>
> Now, including the valuable contributions of Marc and Jon, the annotated
> Apache manual TOC would look like this.
>
> 1.- Introduction
>   Who we are, why are we doing this.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/whoweare.html
>   http://httpd.apache.org/ABOUT_APACHE.html
>
> 2.- Project proposal
>   Proposal stage, committers needed, community.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/getinvolved.html
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
>
> 3.- Apache rules
>   Who gets to vote what.
>   Voting rules, valid votes, +1/+0/0/-0/-1.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/roles.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/decisions.html
>   http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/xml-admin/charter.txt
>
> 4.- Code organization and repositories
>   Naming of packages, repositories, what to find in them.
>   Who touches what.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/dirlayout.html
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guidelines.html
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/agreement.html
>
> 5.- Code quality
>   Add copyright notice, add authors.
>   Format your code but not others'.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/agreement.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/source.html
>
> 6.- Testing
>   Adding test cases.
>   Solving bugs, errors, showstoppers.
>   Security problems.
>
>   http://httpd.apache.org/security_report.html
>
> 7.- Build system
>   Use Ant, use Ant, use Ant.
>   Use Gump.
>   Use Scarab.
>
>   Not done yet.
>
> 8.- Dependencies
>   What jar's to use and what to avoid.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jars.html
>
> 9.- Documentation
>   Where to look for it.
>   What to expect, what not to expect.
>
>   Not done yet.
>
> 10.- Releases
>   When to release, what to release.
>   Release process.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html
>
> 11.- Support
>   Whom you should ask, what you should figure out yourself.
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/mail.html
>
> 12.- Licensing and guarantee
>   Why you should use Apache license, and what's wrong with other licenses.
>   What you can do with Apache products. Giving credit.
>   All that implied warranty things.
>
>   http://www.apache.org/foundation/licence-FAQ.html
>   http://xml.apache.org/dist/LICENSE.txt
>
> > -Mensaje original-
> > De: Marc Saegesser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Enviado el: miércoles 20 de febrero de 2002 20:19
> > Para: Jakarta General List
> > Asunto: RE: Apache Manual (was ApacheForge)
> >
> >
> > Alex,
> >
> > That's a really good start.  My only comment right now is to
> > point out that
> > some of the topics in this list are Jakarta specific and
> > Apache is much
> > bigger than Jakarta.  It would be cool if a manual such as
> > this covered how
> > other Apache projects handle similar tasks.
> >
> > I'd also include a chapter on Apache and Jakarta rules.  For
> > example, voting
> > rules, what constitutes a valid vote, what are the voting
> > types and when
> > they apply, what are meanings of +1/+0/0/-0/-1 in the various
> > voting types.
> >
> > A collection of release instructions for various projects
> > might also be
> > useful.  When I was the release manager for Tomcat 3.2.x I
> > got some initial
> > help from Craig, but after that I had to invent most of the
> > process myself
> > (and I'll be the first admit that I didn't document that
> > process :-( ).
> >
> > I'm sure I think of more after giving it some more thought.
> > Good start,
> > though.
> >
> > Marc Saegesser
> >
>
>
>
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> For additional comma

FW: grammer issue

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dave Palmer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 3:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: grammer issue
> 
> 
> Hello,
> Just thought I'd drop you a quick line to let you know that there is a
> slight grammer issue on the home page of the jakarta site:
> 
> "Please considerate and do your homework before asking our volunteers to
> donate additional time and energy to your project."
> 
> I think you mean:
> 
> "Please be considerate..."
> 
> :)
> 
> Keep up the excellent work!
> 
> ./dave
> 


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RE: distribute minimal jar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Relax, I was just curious... but too lazy to check the source.
=:o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Vladimir Bossicard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 1:49 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: distribute minimal jar
> 
> 
> > The common logging wrapper also looks familiar...
> > ...from Velocity???
> 
> 
> in the java file:
> 
>   * Credit: inspired by org.apache.velocity.runtime.log.LogManager 
> class
> 
> I never meant to "steal" code without crediting the original author. 
> And I'm absolutely ready to give more credit and comply with every term 
> of the Jakarta license.  As the project is still Alpha, it's not on the 
> top of my list but I keep track of everything.
> 
> -Vladimir
> 
> -- 
> Vladimir Bossicard
> www.bossicard.com
> 
> 
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RE: distribute minimal jar

[Paulo Gaspar]

The common logging wrapper also looks familiar...
...from Velocity???

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ylan Segal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 1:10 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: distribute minimal jar
> 
> 
> 
> > I have started a project (http://apricot.sourceforge.net) and use
> > several jakarta projects (LogKit, Log4J, oro, velocity, xerces...).
> I took a look at your project. It looks just like jakarta's site. 
> Why? Is it
> in anyway related?
> 
> Ylan Segal
> 
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Paulo Gaspar]

Yeahh!
Costin tends to be too quiet sometimes. I hope he is reversing that 
trend because I learn something most of the times he talks.

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Remy Maucherat [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2002 6:07 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> > After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
> > if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
> > any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.
> 
> Lol. Sellout !
> You're joining the establishment now !
> ;-)
> 
> I think I'll vote for you :)
> 
> Remy
> 
> 
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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, now that I understand better how a PMC nomination works,
it looks like I have to say something about me besides just
saying that I accept - which I do.

I work on software development for almost 15 years and I 
only started using Apache software less than 2 years ago. I
got addicted very fast.

As many of you probably noticed, I do not believe on quietly
"accepting the facts". I also believe on defending my 
interests without hurting others and I often spend "too much"
effort defending what I consider fair.

And I do it for selfish reasons - I am depending on loads of
Jakarta software and I do not believe the Jakarta Project 
will survive unless we all win something.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
> Kevin A. Burton
> Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 10:17 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
> 
> 
> > A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at
> > swapping to C# - at least for the desktop.  Given how weak the 
> C# runtime is
> > now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting.
> 
> I haven't looked at the C# gui stuff.  I still don't think there 
> is a solid GUI framework unless you use C++/QT/KDE

The top architect of C# is also the guy that started Delphi at Borland.
Considering this, the GUI stuff sure might be interesting.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Dirk.


But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only 
Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
+1s all sent to "jvote".

How should this be fixed?


This is what I see in "general":
(I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)

 - Ted Husted
 The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".

 - Stefan Bodewig
 - Conor MacNeill
 Nothing went to "jvote".
 (I think that both are still missing votes.)

 - Scott Sanders
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Sam Ruby
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Peter Donald
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Paulo Gaspar
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Morgan Delagranje
 Only his acceptance went to "jvote".

 - Geir Magnusson
 Enough votes went to "jvote".

 - Diane Holt
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Craig McClanahan
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

 - Costin Manolache
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> 
> > Why? What are the rules?
> 
> See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> is clearer.
> 
> What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> be run in the election.
> 
> Dw.
> 
> 
> T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> from the nominee being received.
> 
> ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> description about who you are, what you want to
> accomplish.
> 
> ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> message confirming that you are accepting the
> nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> 
> ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> he or she would consent of course.)
> 
> ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> be nominated.
> 
> ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

Thanks Dirk.


But then, from what I can see in the "general" list, only 
Geir has both the nomination and the 2 necessary additional
+1s all sent to "jvote".

How should this be fixed?


This is what I see in "general":
(I am skipping those that refused the nomination.)

 - Ted Husted
 The 3rd +1 did not get to "jvote".

 - Stefan Bodewig
 - Conor MacNeill
 Nothing went to "jvote".
 (I think that both are still missing votes.)

 - Scott Sanders
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Sam Ruby
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Peter Donald
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Paulo Gaspar
 Nothing went to "jvote".

 - Morgan Delagranje
 Only his acceptance went to "jvote".

 - Geir Magnusson
 Enough votes went to "jvote".

 - Diane Holt
 Only the nomination went to "jvote".

 - Craig McClanahan
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

 - Costin Manolache
 Only the nomination and one vote went to "jvote".

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: To jvote or not to jvote
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2002, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> > >From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.
> 
> > Why? What are the rules?
> 
> See below. We'll debug the message for the next election to make sure it
> is clearer.
> 
> What we will be checking on the 7th is what we have received on the
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list -> and in particular those messages
> from the nominee himself or herself that he or she is willing to
> be run in the election.
> 
> Dw.
> 
> 
> T+7 Nominations for PMC needs to be in by 0:00 GMT 7th of
> February 2001. You can either nominate yourself - or
> nominate someone else. What counts is the confirmation
> from the nominee being received.
> 
> ->  Posting a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] with your candidature, a short
> description about who you are, what you want to
> accomplish.
> 
> ->  Or if you are volunteered by someone else - a similar
> message confirming that you are accepting the
> nomination - with again - some details about yourself.
> 
> ->  PMC seats are open to anyone. Regardless as to
> wether you are a committer, lurker or coder. And
> you can even nominate a complete outsider (assuming
> he or she would consent of course.)
> 
> ->  The board volunteers handling the vote cannot
> be nominated.
> 
> ->  The nomination must include the email address of
> the nominee. And it really should be a valid one :-)
> 
> 
> 
> --
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To jvote or not to jvote

[Paulo Gaspar]

>From the PMC nomination postings, some are going to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and some not.

Why?
What are the rules?

If they all should, then a lot are missing!


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

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RE: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

[Paulo Gaspar]

I second that nomination.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of jean-frederic clere
> Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 6:59 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Costin Manolache for election to the PMC.
> 
> Costin has a wide area knowledge of ASF projects (Apr, httpd 1.3/2.0,
> tomcat3.x/4.0, Ant...).
> He has been contributing to Tomcat since the very first versions.
> 
> He has the patience of a good teacher and the spirit of a real "hacker".
> I know that he promotes OSS and OSS spirit from the 
> jakarta-tomcat-* projects.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Jean-frederic
> 
> --
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RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection

[Paulo Gaspar]

Cool!

That was what I understood but the tone of some remarks left me wondering.

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2002 8:42 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
>
>
> Just to be clear, I'm not leaving Jakarta entirely, you will still have to
> put up with my bullshit every now and then...I'm just not going to
> participate in the PMC politics any longer...
>
> -jon


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RE: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection

[Paulo Gaspar]

At least it seems that your are in for serious fun!
Hard to imagine a better reason to quit the PMC.

I hope you enjoy it and thanks for making things happen.


All the best,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 9:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection
>
>
> Hey all,
>
> I just wanted to say that I'm not going to accept my Jakarta PMC
> nomination
> and do not want to be included in the voting for the next election.
>
> I have been involved with Java Apache/Jakarta since Sept 1996 and I think
> that it is time for me to move on from being politically responsible for
> this group. Honestly, I'm jaded and burned out on it all.
>
> That said, I recently signed a 10 year lease on a prime event space in
> downtown San Francisco and I am moving towards spending more time being a
> big time night club owner than working on Jakarta. More info:
> <http://www.studioz.tv/> (p.s. that site is built with Anakia )
>
> I also just released Scarab 1.0b1 and am focused primarily on
> making Scarab
> the best issue tracking tool around. Expect to see more great developments
> on this project. It is by far, one of the best designed, largest and most
> complex pieces of software that I have ever had the pleasure of helping
> develop. It will be around for a very long time and will eventually put
> Bugzilla out of business. More info: <http://scarab.tigris.org/>
>
> thanks,
>
> -jon


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RE: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan

[Paulo Gaspar]

+1 to Craig!

> -Original Message-
> From: Morgan Delagrange [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 11:17 PM
> To: General Jakarta
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
>
>
> I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC.
>
> Craig works on a lot more projects than I do (than _most_ people do), so I
> cannot give a complete rundown of his accomplishments.  I can
> say, however,
> that his excellent and informed contributions to Commons, to
> Taglibs, and to
> numerous mailing lists prove his value to the community.
>
> - Morgan Delagrange
>
>
> _
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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AltRMI chat (was: [OT] J2EE considered harmful)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Moving this to the Commons. Please reply only in the commons-dev list.

Sorry Paul, I meant AspectJ.

I do not understand the incompatibility between Dynamic proxies and
BeanShell. What is it.

Did you try pnuts? I already found a documented way to run a pnuts
compiled class, although it demands the presence of some Runtime 
support classes.

Anyway, with pnuts you can generate/compile code in memory.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Hammant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:33 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [OT] J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> Paulo,
> 
> >Paul just answered to what I meant in a better way than I would be able
> >to do.
> >
> >BTW Paul, you know JAspect and Dynamic Proxies don't you?
> >
> 
> Yes, BUT : I am not skilled enough in Jaspect, AspectJ, BCEL, JCFE to 
> able able to use them for AltRMI's proxy generation.  I know *exactly* 
> what I need to do in Java so have ripped (with attribution) Jaspers 
> compiler invoker and placed it in the tree for AltRMI, then written Java 
> source to a temp dir.  This can be done in advance (like rmic) or at 
> runtime on the server for truly dynamic opration.
> 
> Refelctions Dynamic proxys were not quite good enough for AltRMI either. 
> Reason - I love beanshell and use it to poke interfaces for testing.  An 
> example I always cite is for JAMES :
> 
> bsh> jamesAdmin = getAltRMIObject("james.host",8999,"JamesAdmin");
> bsh> fred = jamesAdmin.addUser("Fred Flintstone");
> bsh> jamesAdmin.enableUser(fred);
> 
> All that is possible (given the JAMES API) with beanshell / AltRMI now 
> without and James classes pre-existing in beanshell's classpath.  The 
> thing that makes it so much easier to use is that the arriving 
> jamesAdmin instance supports getMethods() in the nromal way which is 
> very beanshell friendly.
> 
> - Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

Paul already talked about a couple ways of tuning the use of remote
calls without having to do it on a case by case basis.

However, the thumb rule is that:
 - Either you build the system to be scalable (which might make it
   a bit less efficient when having it working in a single machine
   when compared to a non scalable system);

 - Or you use some "transparency" mechanism and you tend to loose
   robustness/control when compared to a system that is aware of
   possible communications issues and tries to handle them.

Some communications issues can be recovered from and some not. And
sometimes the decision to try to recover or not depends on the
kind of operation you are performing.

And I also agree with Paul that the RemoteException is NOT a bit
help.

Do you believe on magic bullets that work everywhere?
We keep trying to get as close to having them as possible but...


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 2:19 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
>
>
> So what if you need to move an object that is defined as local to be
> load balanced across machines?  I think you're wrong on that one.  If
> you have to define it as local you loose scalability by definition
> unless you accept the hardware vendor's edition of scalability (buy an
> E1 instead and junk your old machine ;-) ).
>
> On Fri, 2002-02-01 at 08:06, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > I do not think so. Handling in a proper way situations that are
> > specific to a remote call does not mean that the architecture of
> > the app must be less scalable.
> >
> >
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:03 AM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> > >
> > >
> > > Albeit at the expense of scalability
> > >
> > > On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 09:51, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > > > I think that the key bit is:
> > > >  > and it is a mistake to try to program
> > > >  > as though a
> > > >  > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> > > >
> > > > Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the
> > > > specific issues of a remote call.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have fun,
> > > > Paulo Gaspar
> > > >
> > > > > -Original Message-
> > > > > From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro
> > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM
> > > > > To: 'Jakarta General List'
> > > > > Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Tim.
> > > > >
> > > > > I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs
> > > > > as much as
> > > > > possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
> > > > >
> > > > > > -Mensaje original-
> > > > > > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation
> > > > > > techniques
> > > > > > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent,
> > > > > > instead of
> > > > > > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But
> > > > > > personally, I think RPC
> > > > > > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program
> > > > > > as though a
> > > > > > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to
> > > make remote
> > > > > calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all.
> > > The recent
> > > > > discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of
> > > interest in using
> > > > > proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote*
> stuff) that was
> > > > > flawed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Un saludo,
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> > > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTEC

RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

This is getting interesting and we have e lot of pieces for this kind
of puzzle around Apache.

Why must standards be ruled just by the BigCo's???

De facto standards happen when a product is really good.

This reminds me how the then tiny dog Borland turned Turbo Pascal 
into the de facto standard Pascal language in a couple of years. All 
Pascal language related products wanted to be compatible with it and 
not with whatever was the standard Pascal. All the big dogs had to 
run away.



Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Schnitzer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:54 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> > From: Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > 
> > Are you just talking about creating a new language, or what?  What is
> your
> > idea?  I cannot tell.
> 
> That's a good question, and ultimately one which would be determined by
> the constraints of the technology.  Prototyping would probably involve
> using an existing language and platform, and maybe we would ultimately
> discover that it is possible to build a system like this on top of a JVM
> (or CLR).  My suspicion is that it is not, and may be undesirable for
> legal reasons anyways.
> 
> The later part of my diatribe was a hastily phrased way of approaching
> this subject:
> 
> Unless you want to go back to the dark ages of C++, the future is
> shaping up to look like a choice between writing for the Sun platform or
> the Microsoft platform.  This does not make me comfortable, especially
> considering that Sun's approach to Java so far has been *wholly*
> anathema to the principals of Open Source.  At least Microsoft has
> submitted C# and the CLI to ECMA.  Quoth Jon: *WAKE UP PEOPLE*
> 
> I am tantalized by the idea of a third choice:  the Apache platform.  I
> propose a discussion of just what that might be.
> 
> Jeff Schnitzer
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
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RE: [OT] J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

Paul just answered to what I meant in a better way than I would be able
to do.

BTW Paul, you know JAspect and Dynamic Proxies don't you?


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Hammant [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 12:44 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [OT] J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> Alex,
> 
> My experience is that people either immediately decide they like AltRMI 
> or strongly dislike it.  One of my strongest critics (in commons mail 
> list) is coming round to it after much effort :-)
> 
> For many it is inline with something they have felt for ages : Remote 
> interface and RemoteException suck.  Many other are quite happy with RMI 
> as is and always have been.
> 
> AltRMI is really about remote publishing an object via it's normal Java 
> interfaces.  It also has local publishing capabilities for complex 
> classloader situations.
> 
> >I do not agree with that. More robust how?
> >
> You can set retry policies.  In the middle of a method invocation and 
> unknown to the caller, the connection can be reestablished.  It is a 
> programmable API in that the developer can choose between the two 
> extremes "never retry, log & fail imediately" and "retry eternally".  
> 
> >If you want to signal that something can go wrong on the remote 
> side, throw
> >an exception; if you want to signal that the remote connection does not
> >work, then delay the call and/or send a runtime exception.
> >
> Or a derivative (AltrmiInvocationException).  You can catch it or not. 
>  In the case of 'not' I'd hope the container/handler knows what to do 
> with it .
> 
> >Otherwise, what is the purpose of AltRMI? I thought it was to avoid the
> >cumbersomeness of throwing RemoteException all the time.
> >
> It is.
> 
> I've started a project "Enterprise Object Broker" at Sourceforge to try 
> out the use of AltRMI. -> http://eob.sourceforge.net/
> It is Apache license, and if it is any good and has built a community, I 
> think Jakarta would be its natural home.  
> 
> - Paul H
> 
> 
> 
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RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

I do not think so. Handling in a proper way situations that are
specific to a remote call does not mean that the architecture of
the app must be less scalable.


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 7:03 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> Albeit at the expense of scalability
> 
> On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 09:51, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> > I think that the key bit is:
> >  > and it is a mistake to try to program 
> >  > as though a
> >  > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> > 
> > Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the
> > specific issues of a remote call.
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM
> > > To: 'Jakarta General List'
> > > Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Hi Tim.
> > > 
> > > I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs 
> > > as much as
> > > possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
> > > 
> > > > -Mensaje original-
> > > > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation 
> > > > techniques
> > > > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, 
> > > > instead of
> > > > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But 
> > > > personally, I think RPC
> > > > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program 
> > > > as though a
> > > > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> > > 
> > > Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to 
> make remote
> > > calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. 
> The recent
> > > discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of 
> interest in using
> > > proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
> > > flawed.
> > > 
> > > Un saludo,
> > > 
> > > Alex.
> > > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this for both Sam and Jon:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:28 PM
> To: Apache Jakarta
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate
> 
>  - Jon Stevens
>  - Sam Ruby
> 
> for the upcoming PMC elections.
> 
> The reason is simple: nobody else has done more for jakarta.
> 
> Sure, they have diametrically different styles and attitudes, but this
> the reason why I want to nominate both at the same time: they balance
> out since they listen to each other and, deep down below, they share the
> very same feelings about what apache is.
> 
> If somebody has to decide where jakarta is going, I'd like having them
> decide for me.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: PMC Nomination

[Paulo Gaspar]

...and this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Bojan Smojver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:31 AM
> To: Jakarta General
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Geir Magnusson Jr. for the PMC.
> 
> Geir is current PMC member. His dedication to Jakarta projects,
> especially Velocity, is undoubted. His support levels on Velocity
> project are unsurpassed, with response times in minutes. He is always
> open to suggestions by other developers (and non-developers) and is
> willing to sacrifice a lot of his own time to improve the projects he is
> working on. His recent contribution of DVSL to Velocity only confirms
> the above.
> 
> Bojan
> 
> 
> --
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> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok, it seems that now I can do this:
+1

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> 
> Who I am:
> 
> I am a developer with 10 years of experience.  I got my first taste of
> Open Source Software with JServ 0.9, and helped (albeit very little)
> with Jserv as a lurker/non-committer.  I use/have used Apache products
> everyday in my development of various projects.  My current focus is on
> building the Commons community to have a large library of reusable
> components for my own development work.  I am also working on a proposal
> for the re-birth of Alexandria, and have some thoughts on how to make
> James an 'Exchange Killer'.  I am not being paid to work at jakarta, and
> I am happy to help build the community.
> 
> What I want to accomplish:
> 
> Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.  I respect what each
> of them have done for Jakarta and Apache as a whole.  I would like to
> follow in the gigantic footsteps of Sam in helping to increase
> inter-project communication and cooperation.  This can only help to
> increase the Apache community in general, and the Jakarta community
> specifically.  I would also like to continue Sam's work in the
> cooperation with the xml.apache.org community.  Part of the community
> building is having some way of finding code within Apache.
> 
> I look forward to helping improve the jakarta community,
> Scott Sanders
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

A bit more of OT inline:
=;o)

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:50 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful
>
>
> At 09:11 PM 1/31/2002 +0100, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >  (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
> >  concatenate Strings;
>
> Yes, am pretty sure there are ways to make life easier with SQL,
> sorry for bad comparison.

No reason to be sorry. The traditional approach you pointed is a PITA.
I am just mentioning alternatives.


> See, despite all of the skepticism about O/R mechanisms, I
> believe in this
> approach for one reason - I used a good O/R tool for major
> development for
> about 4 years now. I am talking about WebObjects. I believe this was the
> first application server out there (I think before even the term was
> coined). Now it lives in a relative obscurity since NeXT (the inventor of
> it) was bought by Apple, and Apple has no reputation for "enterprise"
> solutions.

I always read good thinking about WebObjects. I am really getting
curious about it.

> The bottom line here is that developer productivity goes up
> significantly.
> Code produced is incomparably easier to understand and maintain. And
> performance price is not that big (definitely not comparable to
> the impact EJB would make).

UAU! Good performance too?

I did read a lot about its productivity but nothing about
performance.


> >  (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.
>
> Totally agree. Still does not make this pattern bad. One use is a
> transport
> mechanism for data between the application parts. Clean and easy
> to understand.

Yes, but I think javabeans should be reserved for complex business
logic where it shines on the clean & easy aspects.

For data transport a lot can be automated in Java using approaches
like the Dynabeans. I mean, code like this:

bean1.field1 = someOtherSource.getObject("field1");
bean1.field2 = someOtherSource.getObject("field2");
...
bean1.field47 = someOtherSource.getObject("field47");

is really dumb and painful.

>  Sorry for an OT post, this J2EE licensing discussion got a
> bit off hand.

A lot of interesting discussions go on OT all the time.
=;o)

> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

I accept. I want to see the end of the movie.
=;o)

And I believe I will (would) survive if the lower probability
result happens. I am already too involved anyway.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 10:41 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> 
> 
> You mean that you accept?  (You need to accept or decline)
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 2:01 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > 
> > 
> > Now I am speechless!
> > (Never happened before as you well know!)
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
> > >
> > >
> > > Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code 
> > > that we have been producing.  He has experienced first hand 
> > the pains 
> > > that are inflicted on the consumers of our software when 
> > decisions are 
> > > made based on the rampant subproject rivalry that continues 
> > to exist.  
> > > Throughout it all he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
> > >
> > > Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or 
> > not, it is my 
> > > sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more 
> > directly involved 
> > > in the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
> > >
> > > - Sam Ruby


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RE: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar

[Paulo Gaspar]

Now I am speechless!
(Never happened before as you well know!)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 9:56 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: PMC Nomination - Paulo Gaspar
>
>
> Paulo is an individual who uses a rather large portion of the code that we
> have been producing.  He has experienced first hand the pains that are
> inflicted on the consumers of our software when decisions are
> made based on
> the rampant subproject rivalry that continues to exist.  Throughout it all
> he has never been one to hold back his opinions.
>
> Whether or not Paulo is elected to the PMC this round or not, it is my
> sincere hope that Paulo make the choice to get more directly involved in
> the subprojects he cares about, and becomes a committer.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

Sam as an ego!


Have fun,
Paulo

P.S.: I would vote on all these guys if I could.
  Scott, Sam, Stefano and Jon.


> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:49 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Scott Sanders
> 
> 
> Scott Sanders wrote:
> >
> > I would like to nominate Scott Sanders (myself) for the PMC election.
> >
> > Jon, Sam, and Stefano are my open source 'idols'.
> 
> I *love* it!
> 
> A self nomination that was crafted in such a way to guarantee the 
> necessary
> "seconds".
> 
> I'll be glad to do my part:
> 
>+1
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 


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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

*persistence transparency* <=> *waste of efficiency*

There are no good systems that solve that yet. It only works for very
simple schemas.

Besides,
 (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
 concatenate Strings;
 (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.

For (1) I use SQL generators for the most common operations and SQL
templates - defined in an XML file - for the others. Having SQL defined
outside the Java code often saves a lot of time and avoids the
concatenation mess.

For (2)... just go to the jakarta-commons mail archives and check the
discussions about the DynaBeans stuff.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar



> -Original Message-
> From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 8:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: J2EE considered harmful
>
> ...
>
> Well, if EJB (or others) are doing it wrong, it doesn't mean that Object
> Relational approach is bad. I agree that objects mapped straight to the
> rows one to one are not of much use by themselves. But they provide
> something that you will need to build your less fine grained objects,
> namely *persistence transparency*. By the same token you can say that any
> objects that use Java Bean pattern are useless, since all they
> have is get
> and set methods.
>
> But well, some people may like to concatenate SQL strings every time they
> want to get some data written or read to/from the database. The keyword
> here is "productivity".
>
>
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>


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RE: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[Paulo Gaspar]

I just hope someone does something. Killing the links to something
that is not there sounds good to me.

I am getting a lot of complains like this and I will keep forwarding
them here.

(And when I get fed up with doing that I will find a new way of
making noise one order of magnitude higher!)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: dIon Gillard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 4:00 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
>
>
> Ok,
>
> I have NO idea about how this works, but obviously noone wants to fix it
> either.
>
> Why don't we take it offline until it's fixed?
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> >-Original Message-
> >From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM
> >To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> >Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken
> >
> >
> >I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly.
> >http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs
> /action/Set
> >All/project_id/2
> >displays the following error message:
> >Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
> >org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.ja
> va:648) at
> >org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.j
> ava:158) at
> >org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.
> doPerform(D
> >efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at
> >org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
> >org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
> >org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
> >javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
> >javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(
> Application
> >FilterChain.java:247) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicat
> ionFilterCh
> >ain.java:193) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrap
> perValve.ja
> >va:243) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardCont
> extValve.ja
> >va:201) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.j
> ava:2344)
> >at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostVal
> ve.java:164
> >) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispa
> tcherValve.
> >java:170) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >64) at
> >org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportVal
> ve.java:170
> >) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >64) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngin
> eValve.java
> >:163) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipe
> line.java:5
> >66) at
> >org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline
> .java:472)
> >at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> >org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProc
> essor.java:
> >1011) at
> >org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcesso
> r.java:1106
> >) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
> >It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like
> >this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad
> picture of
> >Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own
> Java-enabled website
> >running correctly.
> >All the best,
> >--
> >Jonathan Miller
> >--

Another complain... FW: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken

[Paulo Gaspar]

-Original Message-
From: Jonathan Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 3:42 PM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Jakarta FAQ-o-matic broken


I cannot get the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic to work correctly.
http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/action/Set
All/project_id/2
displays the following error message:
Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648) at
org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158) at
org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.doPerform(D
efaultSessionValidator.java:101) at
org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(Application
FilterChain.java:247) at
org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(ApplicationFilterCh
ain.java:193) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapperValve.ja
va:243) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardContextValve.ja
va:201) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValve.java:164
) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispatcherValve.
java:170) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
64) at
org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValve.java:170
) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
64) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngineValve.java
:163) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipeline.java:5
66) at
org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.java:472)
at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProcessor.java:
1011) at
org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor.java:1106
) at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
It would be good if this can be fixed relatively quickly (it's been like
this for a couple of days now) as it seems to present a very bad picture of
Jakarta Tomcat if the Jakarta team cannot get their own Java-enabled website
running correctly.
All the best,
--
Jonathan Miller

Cartesian Limited
Descartes House
8 Gate Street
London WC2A 3HP
web: www.cartesian.co.uk


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RE: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Paulo Gaspar]

I think that the key bit is:
 > and it is a mistake to try to program 
 > as though a
 > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.

Your app will always be more robust if you do NOT ignore the
specific issues of a remote call.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 1:50 PM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: [OT] RE: J2EE considered harmful
> 
> 
> Hi Tim.
> 
> I agree with your point of view, we've been trying to avoid EJBs 
> as much as
> possible. But there's one thing I don't understand.
> 
> > -Mensaje original-
> > De: Tim Hyde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation 
> > techniques
> > would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, 
> > instead of
> > requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But 
> > personally, I think RPC
> > is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program 
> > as though a
> > remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.
> 
> Why is it a mistake? I think a remote proxy is a great way to make remote
> calls, shielding the developer from the complexity of it all. The recent
> discussion about AltRMI has shown that there's a lot of interest in using
> proxies, but it was Sun's implementation (the Remote* stuff) that was
> flawed.
> 
> Un saludo,
> 
> Alex.
> 

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FW: Error on site-internal link

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Rolf Heckemann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Rolf Heckemann
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 12:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Error on site-internal link
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> The page
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
> 
> contains the link
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/SetAll/project_id/2
> 
> which brings up a NoClassDefFoundError.
> 
> I need the Faq-O-Matic - please help.
> 
> Rolf
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rolf Heckemann (Dr. med.) Research Fellow
> Department of Imaging Hammersmith Hospital, London
> 

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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

[Paulo Gaspar]

Sometimes I (argh!) love Jon!
=;o)

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:07 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> > matter at the top of the home page, and would like to move it 
> > to the news and status page. 
> > 
> > -Ted.
> > 
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> > Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> > 
> >   Modified:docs index.html
> >xdocsindex.xml
> >   Log:
> >   lets have a little fun.
> >   
> >   Revision  ChangesPath
> >   1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
> >   
> >   Index: index.html
> >   ===
> >   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
> >   retrieving revision 1.51
> >   retrieving revision 1.52
> >   diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
> >   --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
> >   +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
> >   @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
> >   
> > 
> >  
> >
> >   +  That
> > flaming fireball in the sky...
> >   +
> >   +  
> >   +  
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In a recent  > href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Sun
> > Interview">article,
> > Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
> >   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> > momentum over the
> >   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> > source efforts
> >   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> > licensing
> >   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> > it, it does).
> >   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> > Java Community
> >   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> > to claim that
> >   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> >   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> >   +licensing terms, feel free to contact  > href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> > know what you
> >   +think. Thanks.
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +  
> >   +  
> >   +
> >   + > cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
> >   +  
> >   +
> >  Welcome
> >
> >  
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
> >   
> >   Index: index.xml
> >   ===
> >   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
> >   retrieving revision 1.20
> >   retrieving revision 1.21
> >   diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
> >   --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
> >   +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
> >   @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
> >
> >
> >
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In a recent  >  
> > +href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su
> > nInterview
> > +"
> >   +>article, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility 
> > and Platform
> >   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> > momentum over the
> >   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> > source efforts
> >   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> > licensing
> >   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> > it, it does).
> >   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> > Java Community
> >   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> > to claim that
> >   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> >   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> >   +licensing terms, feel free to contact  >   +href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> > know what yo

FW: Faq-o-matic down

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Doug Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Faq-o-matic down
>
>
> Hello,
>
> When I clicked the link "Official Jakarta Faq-o-matic" on
> the page "http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html";, I got
> an ugly stack trace like the following.  It appears that
> the link is down.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
>
> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.jav
> a:648) at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(DefaultSessionValidator.java:101)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91) at
> org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119) at
> org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325) at
> javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740) at
> javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
> pplicationFilterChain.java:247)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterChain.java:193)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.java:243)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.java:201)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.ja
> va:2344)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java:163)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943) at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce
> ssor.java:1011)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor
> .java:1106)
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>
>
>


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FW: Web site error

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Allen Chesley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2002 10:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Web site error
>
>
> The URL
>
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/SetAll/project_id/2
>
> which is the "Official Jakarta Faq-o-matic" link from URL
>
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> produces a set of JAVA exceptions as follows:
>
> Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648)
>
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
>
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(DefaultSessionValidator.java:101)
>
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91)
> at
> org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119)
> at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
pplicationFilterChain.java:247)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterChain.java:193)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.java:243)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.java:201)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.java:170)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:564)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java:163)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:566)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.process(HttpProce
> ssor.java:1011)
>
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.run(HttpProcessor
> .java:1106)
>
> at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:484)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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FAQ-o-matic down at least since yesterday...

[Paulo Gaspar]

4 complains and counting!

Can someone take care of this?


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Mark [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 11:33 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: FAQs web page
>
>
> It seems that the Jakarta FAQ-o-matic is having problems.  It
> retrieves a Java
> error so I thought I would mention it in case you were not aware of it.  I
> noticed it this past weekend and it's still having a problem.
>
> I found the link to it at this page :
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> Which points to
> ->http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaq
> s/action/SetAll/project_id/2
>
> Not sure if the link is incorrect or some other issue.
>
> __
> Web-hosting solutions for home and business! http://website.yahoo.ca
>



> -Original Message-
> From: Brumer, Haim [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 8:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: faq o matic
>
>
> Hi,
>
> please fix the faq-o-matic (Jakarta).  I need info and the faq
> has been down for over a wk.
>
> thanks,
> haim
>



> -Original Message-
> From: Chanoch Wiggers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 3:53 PM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject:
>
>
> there seems to be a major problem with the faqomatic link on
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/faqs.html
>
> which leads to the following:
>
> http://nagoya.apache.org:8080/jyve-faq/Turbine/screen/DisplayFaqs/
> action/Set
> All/project_id/2
>
>
> which gives class not found exception copied in below. Hope this helps...
>
> chanoch
>
> technical editor
> wrox press ltd
>
>
> Exception: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.TurbineUser.setUserName(TurbineUser.java:648)
> at
> org.apache.turbine.om.user.peer.UserFactory.getUser(UserFactory.java:158)
> at
> org.apache.jyve.actions.sessionvalidator.DefaultSessionValidator.d
> oPerform(D
> efaultSessionValidator.java:101)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.Action.perform(Action.java:91)
> at org.apache.turbine.modules.ActionLoader.exec(ActionLoader.java:119)
> at org.apache.turbine.Turbine.doGet(Turbine.java:325)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:740)
> at javax.servlet.http.HttpServlet.service(HttpServlet.java:853)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.internalDoFilter(A
> pplication
> FilterChain.java:247)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.ApplicationFilterChain.doFilter(Applicati
> onFilterCh
> ain.java:193)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardWrapperValve.invoke(StandardWrapp
> erValve.ja
> va:243)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContextValve.invoke(StandardConte
> xtValve.ja
> va:201)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardContext.invoke(StandardContext.java:2344)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardHostValve.invoke(StandardHostValv
> e.java:164
> )
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorDispatcherValve.invoke(ErrorDispat
> cherValve.
> java:170)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 64)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.valves.ErrorReportValve.invoke(ErrorReportValv
> e.java:170
> )
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 64)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardEngineValve.invoke(StandardEngine
> Valve.java
> :163)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invokeNext(StandardPipel
> ine.java:5
> 66)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.core.StandardPipeline.invoke(StandardPipeline.
> java:472)
> at org.apache.catalina.core.ContainerBase.invoke(ContainerBase.java:943)
> at
> org.apache.catalina.connector.http.HttpProcessor.proc

RE: More abuse of coding styles...

[Paulo Gaspar]

This thread goes so loong with all of you
showing yours that I can't resist showing mine:


public void setSomething(Object i_something)
{
m_something = i_something;
}


Or even...

public void setSomething(Object i_something)
{
Object something;  // a local something

something = fixThat(i_something);

if (isCool(something))
{
m_something = i_something;
}
else
{
throw new IllegalArgumentException("What a bad thing we have
here!!!");
}
}


Prefix paranoia huh?

But I never mix class members with parameters or with local
vars due to similar spellings and misspellings and so.

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Berin Loritsch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 11:26 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: More abuse of coding styles...
>
>
> Sam Ruby wrote:
>
> > Stephane Bailliez wrote:
> >
> >>I can understand why:
> >>
> >>public void setSomething(Object something){
> >>   something = something;
> >>}
> >>
> >
> > Another solution is
> >
> > public void setSomething(Object something) {
> >  this.something = something;
> > }
>
>
> Just beware of this bug:
>
> public void setSomething(Object somthing) { // something misspelled
>  this.something = something;
> }


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RE: Mission ...

[Paulo Gaspar]

"Production quality" sounds MUCH better to me!

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:31 AM
> To: general at jakarta
> Subject: Re: Mission ...
> 
> 
> Personally, 
> 
> While I don't have strong feeling about this, and a Mission statement is
> what it is...
> 
> I don't know that commercial-quality is a positive thing these days. 
> Alternatively, I'd say high-quality.  Its a stupid distinction I know
> but I've used some duds that were supposedly "commercial-quality"
> (especially from *cough*microsoft*cough* the big vendors).  I feel
> Jakarta should champion OS software as being equal to or better than
> "commercial-quality" even when OS software is commecial (if that makes
> any sense).  Like I said pedantic but it just stuck out at me.
> 
> -Andy
> -- 
> www.superlinksoftware.com
> www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
>   - fix java generics!
> 
> 
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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RE: [OT] Code conventions

[Paulo Gaspar]

What about at leat a clue ("[OT]") that this is completely out
of topic?
=;o)

(Yeah! I should have done this before myself.)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Armin Zeltner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:31 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Code conventions
> 
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> what  about micro-printed on-screen code, watched through glasses?
> faster? or  slower?
> 
> 
> JAVA is a myst
> 
> 
> Kurt Schrader wrote:
> 
> >
> > On Wednesday, January 9, 2002, at 03:34 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >
> >> What about if you set the font size really small? LOL
> >>
> >> -Andy
> >
> >
> > Perhaps Microsoft just has their font size set really big.  :)
> >
> > -Kurt
> >
> >
> > -- 
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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RE: Code conventions

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL!
Are you taking these guys seriously?
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Carlos Alonso Vega [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 8:31 PM
> To: Jakarta General List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Code conventions
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Vernum wrote:
> 
> > > It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s,
> >
> > Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.
> >
> > Don't you know?
> >
> > The less space your source code takes, the less space
> > your class file will take.
> > And smaller classes run faster.
> >
> 
> Well, I could be wrong, but if i remember it well, the same 
> compiler produces the same object code no matter the number of 
> spaces, newlines, and tabs are between tokens, statements, and 
> so. They are not important for object code, just for readability. 
> Compiler could take a bit (quite bit) more to compile a file, but 
> once the class is generated, the result object file should be the same.
> 
> (Forgive me if i am wrong)
> 


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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok Ted,

At the moment I do not have enough time to assume the responsibility
for the whole thing but I am willing to help. (I also do not have
the time for flaming days like yesterday.)

One more making some of the work must be of some help.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted
>
>
> The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to share. Just hit
> reply-all so the other "webmasters" know you replied.
>
> Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer helps out now
> and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I thought I
> would float the offer since it came up.
>
> I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages,
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html
>
> which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now).
>
> It's really not a problem.
>
> -T.
>
>
> Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >
> > First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta.
> Second, acting as a receptionist at desk with a million visitors
> a day is not what I call a dream job. The task should left to one
> person but shared on a rotational basis.
> >
> > I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any
> other volunteers? Regards, Ceki
> >
> > At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
> > >emails, that would be great.
> > >
> > >Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I want to remove my name from this page:
> > >>
> > >> <http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html>
> > >>
> > >> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> > >> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> > >>
> > >> -jon
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> >-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> >-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> >-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> --
> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
>
> --
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-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

I am willing to help but I will not stop being a pain in your ass
when I find it necessary.

Please remember that I do not systematicaly disagree with you. I 
just disagree when I can not agree.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Volunteer Wanted
> 
> 
> I want to remove my name from this page:
> 
> <http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html>
> 
> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 

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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.

Wrong guess.
=;o)

I am noisy but not a committer in any Apache projects.
Just posted a few patches on a couple of projects.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.
> >
> > Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
> > =:o)
>
> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.

Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:54 AM
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> > =:o/
> >
> > But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> > minutes for someone who does know.
> 
> karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma.
> 
> A good place to start is by going to "http://jakarta.apache.org";, and
> clicking on "About this site".
> 
> One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are
> literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "couple of minute" tasks 
> that come
> up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the 
> mailing lists,
> chasing down build breakages.
> 
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

Turbine and Avalon serve very distinct purposes, uses and users.

They just have a load of components trying to do the same thing.

Those could be shared and unified by placing them in the commons.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:13 PM
> 
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:04, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 1/7/02 2:45 AM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> > >> Peter,
> > >>
> > >> So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
> > >
> > > Would there be a point to that?
> >
> > 
> > Exactly. Collaboration on a single logging tool would be a 
> terrible idea.
> > 
> 
> so would collaboration on a web framework
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> -
> Clarke's Third Law: "Any technology distinguishable from 
> magic is insufficiently advanced".
> -


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good over there. 

Keep in mind (maybe not Peter but other readers of this post) that:

 1) Both groups always had common long term objectives but disagreed on the
way to achieve them or had different short term targets;

 2) If there had been a strict imposition from above, TC3.3 could have been
forked and a lot of that group could have gone elsewhere. Maybe this
would have permanently destroyed many synergies between the 2 groups 
that were always there (like with the connectors) and others that are
now evolving.

In the process, maybe some TC3.3 ideas proved their worth to some TC4
guys, which means increased cross pollination.

In this case strict control would have prevented several positive things 
from happening.


Similar situation with the Logging APIs, just that this time on separate
projects:

 1) Now both groups are quite a bit incompatible and forcing a merge would
destroy or send away one of the projects;

 2) Still, some projects prefer Log4J and others LogKit;

 3) Each of these Logging libraries seems to have its advantages and 
different strong and week spots. I am quite sure of this since at the
company I work for we have been using LogKit and Log4J for different
projects and I have been doing some logging work with both;

 4) The need of other projects (e.g.: commons components) to use both is
already putting some pressure into cross pollination. With time, it 
can happen that:
  - They will finally be able to merge;
  - One of them will learn all the advantages from the other and 
become dominant.
Either way, positive cross pollination is bound to happen.

This is why I would prefer to have both projects around instead of just
forcing them to merge. Lets put some peer pressure on them without 
destroying them.

Many general strict rules - like forcing to merge what seems to be the 
same thing - would be very destructive in this kind of situation. 

Common sense must be applied (like: "no, you can not fork Tomcat in 
another project") on a case by case basis.

And yes, I am aware of how uncommon common sense seems to be but I still
believe there is enough of it around here.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:12 PM
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> > on design:
> >
> >   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> >   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> >   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> >   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> >   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> >-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
> 
> Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much 
> prefer that all 
> Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are 
> talking about. 
> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good 
> over there. 
> 
> Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side 
> "competing"? 
> Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the 
> end (though 
> maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> -
> First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
> -


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

Well, I did learn how to change a Jakarta web page!
This time the theory, next time the patch!
=:o)

Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:45 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
> 
> 
> on 1/7/02 9:05 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > No karma
> 
> Submit a patch.
> 
> >, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> 
> RTFM
> 
> <http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html>
> 
> 
> Oh well, Geir did your work for you, so you don't learn anything.
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> 

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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

COOL!
=:o)

> -Original Message-
> From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 6:03 AM
> 
> 
> On 1/8/02 12:05 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> > =:o/
> > 
> > But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> > minutes for someone who does know.
> 
> Done.
> 
> > 


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
=:o/

But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of 
minutes for someone who does know.


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:05 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
> 
> 
> on 1/7/02 7:59 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > What about just a version of this form:
> >  http://search.apache.org/
> > 
> > or a link to it???
> > 
> > Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
> > details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
> > sub-domain just by changing its HTML.
> > 
> > 
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo Gaspar
> 
> Ok Paulo, do it. Make it happen.
> 
> -jon


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

What about just a version of this form:
   http://search.apache.org/

or a link to it???

Take a look at my previous posting (the "crushed" thread) for more
details. It can be made (hidden fields I love you) to search any
sub-domain just by changing its HTML.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>
>
> on 1/7/02 6:26 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The idea of a Jakarta code search engine has arisen a few times. Any
> > lucene or alexandria developers care to comment? Cocoon docs are already
> > searchable apparently, though this functionality isn't online.
> >
> > Alternatively, a simple link to Google (restricted by
> > site:jakarta.apache.org) from the front page might help.
> >
> > --Jeff
>
> Good suggestion! Maybe setting up LXR would also be a cool idea.
>
> Not sure how much it will help since people have a hard enough
> time figuring
> out how to format code and send mail to the right mailing list... :-)
>
> That said, I'm sure there is a lot of stuff to learn from Mozilla.org as
> well. They seem pretty successful and have much larger numbers
> than us. :-)
>
> -jon
>
>
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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
> have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.

Did you ever run or walk a Marathon? Or just 20 Km?
Or swim 10Km?

It is one step (or stroke) after the other or you get too tired just by
thinking about it.


> I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I
> contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me?

It does not have to be you.

And I do not have to give a new idea since:
 - Sam's idea looks good enough for checking code style and nagging the
   offenders;

 - Stefano work on Forrest might improve a lot the site. It will take a
   couple of months for xml.apache to talk jakarta into it, have a couple
   of flame wars, adapting tools and layouts, etc... 
   But the first step is taken and we all just need a bit of good will;
   
 - Someone already suggested (sorry, forgot whom!) having a search engine
   to help on finding information in Apache.
   Obvious solution, placing at the Jakarta home page:
 - A REALLY VISIBLE LINK TO http://search.apache.org/
 - A simplified version of the form in that URL.
   (It is simple to shorten that form so that it only searches in
Jakarta, or xml.apache, or Jakarta + xml.apache, etc.
   )

   Even if this did not exist (and considering the problems of putting 
   Lucene on an Apache BSD server) we could even use Google!
   It looks like they are keeping their indexes on Apache up to date 
   (the new home page is indexed) and they have a free solution:
  http://www.google.com/services/free.html

  
So, I think there are already a few solutions for the most immediate 
problems.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar
   

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:00 AM
> 
> on 1/7/02 5:10 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.
> 
> That is because I don't see a way to fix the problems and I'm not sure I
> have the energy to actually go through with it anymore.
> 
> I haven't seen you give any positive initiative's either. People say I
> contribute a lot around here. Why does it always have to be me?
> 
> -jon


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ceki, I believe all you say.

However that does not mean that JBoss does better elsewhere than it would
do here.

Jon stated that some non-Apache projects show that there are better ways
of doing Open Source and gave JBoss as an example.

But we just do not know how it would be if they were her.

IMHO, JBoss is much cleaner of nonsense and much easier to get working
than all the other Open Source app servers. That's it - no competition.
It would probably also have no competition at Apache just by having the
same core developers and core orientations (or just most of them).

I just think they always had the best direction by a long way and that
it would be like that anyway.


Orion, although cheap and good, is payware... and I think I would choose
JBoss even if Orion was Open Source (but I am not even 80% sure, much
because Orion isn't OS).


Me thinks Jon must come up with a better example to prove his POV.
Me also thinks it will not be easy since Apache is quite good.

And I am not a Jakarta founder. I took a look around with impartiality.

I think Jon is undervaluing Jakarta because he helped creating it and
he is comparing what it is with what he dreamed it would be. Things tend
not to work according to our high expectations.

I am comparing it with what I see elsewhere.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:36 AM
>
>
> The JBoss guys are very smart. Scott Stark is extremely high
> caliber. Mark is no idiot either. Jboss is successful because it
> is so fucking good. From where I stand, the other appservers are
> just copying JBoss. Where do you think the MBean architecture in
> Weblogic 6.x came from?
>
> The problem with JBoss is that while they innovate BEA and IBM
> make all the dough. Such is the nature of opensource. Bloody fucking hell!
>
> (From what I hear Orion is pretty good too.)
>
> At 02:18 08.01.2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >> Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
> >> sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...
> >
> >How can you know?
> >
> >I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I
> >have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is
> >not that obvious to me.
> >
> >I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that
> >good. I do not like their documentation that much.
> >
> >JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for
> >something with a lot of demand, unlike Jakarta products like Tomcat or
> >Velocity.
> >
> >Give me a better case and/or concrete reasons, please.
> >
> >
> >Have fun,
> >Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

Answer inline,

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:18 AM
>
>
> on 1/7/02 5:18 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >> Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
> >> sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...
> >
> > How can you know?
>
> I hosted their project on my servers for the first couple of
> years they were
> alive and have had a boat load of conversations with Marc.

You sure seem to be well informed.
=;o)


> > I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I
> > have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is
> > not that obvious to me.
> >
> > I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that
> > good. I do not like their documentation that much.
> >
> > JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for
> > something with a lot of demand
>
> I think it is more than that though...they have worked to develop a
> community and a LOT of interest. At least that is what their website
> suggests. It could be a result of what you say, but Jakarta's
> success isn't
> necessarily because of our projects or our community...it is
> because of the Apache name behind it.

I think you overvalue Apache's name on that and undervalue the quality of
what is done here.

I "moved" here less than 2 years ago and I believe my POV is more impartial
about that, since I was not immersed on Jakarta since day one as you did.


If you want a detail account of how a newbie arrives and stays at Apache:

The fact that Apache made the famous Apache Web server did not motivate me
to get an immediate adept of its Java stuff at all. I thought:
  "So, they have Java. Having people that know how to make a Web server
   does not mean they know how to do anything else. Probably it is not
   even the same people."

But since I had found Apache's Java page by accident, I decided to take a
look. New to web development, JServ did not impress me at all.

I wanted to use Java since Servlets and JSPs looked much better designed
and easier to use than ISAPI Extensions and ASPs (yes... coming from the
MS platform). Servlets looked even simpler and more powerful than using
Delphi for the ISAPI extensions (I did not even consider using VC++).

Since JServ looked so basic, I went on trying JRun (argh! it sure was
buggy) and Sun's Java Web Server (argh! buggy and heavy and slooowww!!!).

I took a look at a load of other Servlet engines. Some were way too
expensive for what they were worth... or it was just not sure at all
they were worth something at all. Others were too basic or fragile.

Then I found out many people saying that JServ was very robust, found
about Tomcat, tried both and started using JServ (and started getting
into flame wars with Jon about TC 3.3 (o;= ).


So I did not come here because of the Apache name, but because JServ
had its own reputation for robustness and because Tomcat was almost
there. (And I tested and played with Tomcat much more than with JServ
to be sure of that.)


It was the same with all other Java software and source code I am
using. I tried to find alternatives everywhere, used Google, spent
hours digging on Java publications and on source code. In the end
most of what I use is Apache again.


I once had a list of around 10 projects/project-families which Docs
and Source I considered worth checking with some detail after a lot
of pre-selection work (which already included taking a look at bits
of code and reading a lot of docs). Among these project families
were big monsters like JBoss, Exolab, Locomotive, etc. I even
subscribed most JBoss lists and some from Exolab.

In terms of the source code I adapted, everything I ended up using
was Apache. Only recently did I integrate a couple of other classes.
Only one non-Apache project taught me something really meaningful
that I really used. (I learned a lot other stuff, of course. But I
am not using it - most of it is JNDI and otherwise J2EE related.)

In terms of libraries, lets take a look at my "lib" directory...
Sun Java APIs, JDBC drivers, a couple of scripting engines (I
recommend Pnuts - damn fast) and Apache stuff again!

A Search Engine and a Logging API used in my company ended up
coming to Apache - Log4J and Lucene.


I currently use LogKit in my stuff, wrapped by (an adapted)
Avalon's common logging interface. One size does not fit all and,
unless one of them changes a lot, I would rather have both.



That I ended up with Apache for almost everything as nothing to do
with the Apache brand. It just has to do with:
 1 - The quality of the product;
 2 - This crazy and brilliant community.


And yes,

RE: Cultural homogeneity

[Paulo Gaspar]

> So, that's my $0.00 this time around (that's about 10,000 Turkish 
> Lira today). 

I would give at least 2 Euros for this one!
=:o)

Couldn't say it better... or I would have done it before!
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:30 AM
> 
> Jon Scott Stevens typed the following on 04:22 PM 1/6/2002 -0800
> >on 1/6/02 3:46 PM, "Kief Morris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Although I haven't been participating, I've been following 
> this discussion,
> >> and would like to donate my 30,000 Turkish Lira (roughly $0.02 
> at today's
> >> rates).
> >
> >Yes, everyone has an opinion and it is easy to express, but no 
> one stands up
> >to actually make anything of it. So, therefore, the opinion is actually
> >worthless (ie: $0.00).
> 
> I'm sorry you feel that way Jon, but I don't entirely see that 
> you're making
> anything of your opinions either. Not to disrespect your contributions to
> Jakarta, but if we're discussing what's wrong with Jakarta, what's your 
> solution? So far the most concrete solution I've seen from you is that
> Geir or Ceki would make a better PMC than Sam, presumably because
> they would govern with a more iron fist. So, if that's what you want, do
> something about it, you're a PMC member, call for a vote. Otherwise,
> what do you suggest be done?
> 
> What exactly *is* the problem with Jakarta from your POV? My 
> interpretation
> of your comments is that Jakarta needs to be more tightly managed (more
> Cathedral than Bazaar?) I see this as more of a philosophical 
> problem: some
> people prefer a more loosely knit organization, consensus rather 
> than command,
> some prefer a more tightly run ship. You say that the current management
> philosophy has sunk the ship, Jakarta is a big failure, etc., but 
> what *exactly*
> has gone wrong?
> 
> - Code standards are not being enforced. An issue, maybe, but IMO 
> not something
>   that has killed the project, I can't see that it's had a 
> negative effect on the
>   quality of the code or its success in the industry: it's just 
> untidy. And I think it's
>   perfectly correctible within the current regime. Somebody who 
> doesn't like it
>   can implement the system Sam suggested to monitor and nag code 
> formatting.
>   If nobody can be arsed to implement that, it can't be that big 
> a problem, can it?
> 
> - Duplication of code (logging, validation, etc.) Partly a 
> philosophical problem. As Craig
>   says, diversity is good. On the other hand, maybe Jakarta 
> should present a clear,
>   unified interface to its users.
> 
> I have to straddle the fence here, (sorry, I'm failing to make 
> something again), and
> say I agree that Jakarta could be better, but I don't think a 
> more dictatorial central
> command would achieve that. For example, you suggest Sam should 
> "take authority 
> and mandate" documentation requirements. Why not propose it, and have the
> community agree on it? If the community doesn't want to do it, 
> Sam or someone
> else imposing rules from on high isn't going to make them do it. 
> 
> I can see your frustration - there are lots of things like the 
> above issues that
> you would like to see changed, and if the only way to make them happen is
> for an interested person to make it so, then you're faced with 
> the alternatives
> of doing it yourself (and you already do a lot of shit, and 
> apparently on the
> edge of burning yourself out), or seeing it not get done. Having 
> someone else
> take charge and impose order probably seems like the ideal solution. 
> 
> But if someone were to actually do that at Jakarta, the suspect 
> the results would 
> be massive defections, and a severe shrinking of the project. A 
> laissez-faire
> community can tolerate people who want more order, but an authoritarian
> regime can't tolerate those who want more freedom.
> 
> Maybe defections of those who don't want a tightly run ship would 
> suit you, Jakarta 
> would be reduced to a smaller, more easily managed project, more 
> like the old
> days, perhaps. 
> 
> So I'm still not contributing anything to this. Why not? Because 
> Jakarta as it
> exists suits my needs very well. I'm always finding more useful 
> stuff in Jakarta,
> and although there are rough edges - build processes aren't 
> consistent, and it
> does occasionally annoy me to have to install a different package 
> for l

RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
> sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...

How can you know?

I have studied their code and their documentation some months ago, I 
have also followed some of their mailling lists for sometime and that is
not that obvious to me.

I do NOT prefer what they call community. I do not find their code that 
good. I do not like their documentation that much.

JBoss success has a lot to do with the lack of credible alternative for
something with a lot of demand, unlike Jakarta products like Tomcat or
Velocity.

Give me a better case and/or concrete reasons, please.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:25 AM
> 
> on 1/7/02 4:26 PM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Which projects are those?
> > Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta?
> 
> Jboss's success seems to be one project. I'm actually glad they went to
> sourceforge...they would have struggled to survive here...
> 
> -jon


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RE: Questions

[Paulo Gaspar]

> If we were to elect a new PMC Chair tomorrow, who would you like to see
> elected?

Why is that question important???

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:07 AM
>
>
> on 1/7/02 1:36 PM, "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Look, I think Sam is irreplaceable and so are you.  I don't
> want to even think
> > about what would happen if anything happened to any of you.
> Heaven forbid.
> > That's all I have to say on this.
>
> You and Ted are focusing on the wrong part of the question. Let
> me rephrase
> the same question another way so that you can see how your focus is on the
> wrong thing:
>
> If we were to elect a new PMC Chair tomorrow, who would you like to see
> elected?
>
> -jon


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
> process and then following that process.
>
> Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
> formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close
> to agreement on it.

Jon,

I see you crying a lot over this but no POSITIVE initiative.

Sam already suggested performing an automated check and NAG the trespassers.
Do you see a better alternative?

I believe you already slapped me around a few times for complaining instead
of acting. Your turn to act.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:05 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: crushed
>
>
> on 1/7/02 3:51 PM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> > is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> > line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> > going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> > not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> >  -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
>
> That isn't entirely what I'm asking for (re: singlemindedness and strict
> control).
>
> Part of what I'm asking for is very simple: documentation of the
> process and
> then following that process.
>
> Remember that all of this started with something as simple as source code
> formatting. We can't even get that right or even anything close
> to agreement
> on it.
>
> -jon


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
> 
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> 
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398


UAU!
Another guy that saw the light!!!
=:oD

Have fun,
Paulo


> -Original Message-
> From: Jeff Turner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:51 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: crushed
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jan 07, 2002 at 03:44:50PM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > Guys,
> > 
> > This whole experience has become a bit disheartening.  Craig McClanahan
> > who is like an idol of mine said this:
> > 
> > "
> > We will continue to do what we've done in the past -- reject projects
> > that only want the "name recognition" value of being under Apache, and
> > don't have a development community compatible with Apache's style.
> > That's much more important than whether it's server-side versus
> > client-side, or in one repository versus another.
> > "
> > 
> > Seemingly directed at POI.
> 
> I don't see what the problem is. Read it carefully.. for that statement
> to apply, POI would have to:
> 
>  - _only_ want the name recognition.
>  - have a development community incompatible with Apache's style
> 
> Do either of those statements apply to POI?
> 
> Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
> up for me:
> 
> >> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
> >> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
> >> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
> >> experience, and having some choice is helpful.
> 
> I have _never_ seen a user complain about having too many choices. Not
> even between notorious duplications like Tomcat 3/4 and Crimson/Xerces.
> 
> I _have_ seen users want comparisons, and better docs to help them make
> the choice. 
> 
> Choice is good. Documented choice is infinitely better :)
> 
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
> 
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> 
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
> 
> 
> --Jeff
> 
> --
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RE: Cross-pollination

[Paulo Gaspar]

A document in some web page buried deep in the structure of a large web
site is not open to public discussion because unless you are privy to
reading all the web site you don't know about it.


Hey... that is why not so many people knew about Intake!!!
...and it is even harder to find out that there is a Connection Pool in
Turbine.

I casually found DBCP the first time I visited the commons page in a
couple of minutes but had to use Google before loosing my patience trying
to find it at the Turbine pages.


Forrest is very recent and maybe the xml.apache guys should have already
posted a note about it HERE and on several other spots.

However, making information public across Apache demands a bit more work
than just posting it at a single spot, web site or mailing list.


Just trying to make sure you understand how much effort can take to make
information public across such large community and how easy is to fail
when everybody does not read everything.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:18 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Cross-pollination
>
>
> I care what is openly documented on websites. A mailing list discussion is
> not an open discussion because unless you are privy to reading
> all the mail,
> you don't know about it.
>
> -jon
>
> on 1/7/02 11:08 AM, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It has been discussed on general@xml.  Check the archives.
> >
> > Scott
> > 


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> I do what I can at the pace I am able.

Which is quite impressive. Especially considering that you probably have
other duties and a live.

I agree 100% with the rest (especially with the mass revolt bit).

Checking mechanisms (automatic or manual) and systematic nagging look 
much more constructive and efficient to me than occasional bursts of
flames.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:17 PM
> 
> Jon Stevens wrote:
> >
> > There were no documents like that before I wrote it.
> 
> Forgive me, but I still hold to my belief that that at the time it was
> written, that document wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
> 
> > Just like there was no nag.pl before I came up with the idea to 
> implement
> > it.
> 
> You can believe what you want.  It was part of my master plan.
> 
> > If anything, you initially resisted nag.pl. One way I know this is
> because
> > as the PMC Chair, you refused make it a requirement of projects to have
> it
> > enabled. Instead, you relied on social pressures to work their magic.
> This
> > actually extended the amount of time it took for people to 
> adopt Gump and
> > raise its awareness. It also caused quite a bit of pain (as you say
> below)
> > as projects had votes against it.
> 
> IIRC, your plan was to send nags on succcesses as well as failures.
> 
> Re: mass conversion - I still believe that there would have been mass
> revolt instead.  I do not have enough arms and legs to be 
> everywhere at all
> times.  I have deliberatedly paced the rate at which I have incorporated
> new codebases based on how many battles I felt that I could concurrently
> fight.
> 
> There are quite a few code bases that took a number of iterations before
> the either saw the light or resigned themselves to the fact that I wasn't
> going to relent.
> 
> > Exactly. I feel that this lack of semblance of control from the top has
> > actually hurt us. Looking at the success of other projects which have
> more
> > control at the top makes me realize this. Jakarta to me is now 
> a complete
> > anarchy where people can do whatever they want without having to worry
> about
> > consequences over the long term.
> 
> I do what I can at the pace I am able.
> 
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

Which projects are those?
Can you really compare them - and their community - with Jakarta?

I just want to know more.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:16 PM
>
> ...
>
> Exactly. I feel that this lack of semblance of control from the top has
> actually hurt us. Looking at the success of other projects which have more
> control at the top makes me realize this. Jakarta to me is now a complete
> anarchy where people can do whatever they want without having to
> worry about consequences over the long term.
>
> -jon


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> without ever deciding. The advantage of a referendum is that once
> a decision is made you get peer pressure for free. Not PMC
> pressure, not chairman pressure but peer pressure!

I can finally agree with Ceki without restrictions. Peer pressure
is the way... if the peers agree with this process.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 7:54 PM
>
>
> At 10:33 07.01.2002 -0800, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >on 1/7/02 10:29 AM, "Jim Scott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> IMHO, until the documentation is made part of the formal
> committing process,
> >> the jakarta tools will only be valuable to the people who
> developed them.
> >>
> >> I know that I am opening myself up to a serious flame, but
> that is the way I
> >> see it.
> >>
> >> Jim Scott
> >
> >No flame. That is a really good suggestion and one of the better $0.00 I
> >have heard in a long time...
> >
> >The bigger issue would then to be to have Sam (the current PMC chair and
> >person with the potential for authority) to take authority and
> mandate such
> >an action over Jakarta.
>
>
> Excellent topic. Much more neutral than code conventions.
>
> Who is going to judge the quality of documentation and enforce such a
> rule if it is ever enunciated?
>
> Let us instate a system based on referendum, where the shareholders
> can directly intervene in making laws. By "shareholders", I mean
> developers with commit rights.
>
> To avoid voting on trivialities, a referendum would require the
> support of at least five committers to acquire the "valid"
> status. After a possible but short delay, a valid referendum is
> submitted to shareholder vote. The result of the vote determines
> whether the referendum is accepted or rejected. An accepted referendum
> becomes law of Jakarta.
>
> This procedure is undeniably heavy. However, so is debating issues
> without ever deciding. The advantage of a referendum is that once
> a decision is made you get peer pressure for free. Not PMC
> pressure, not chairman pressure but peer pressure!
>
> Too heavy handed? OK, what is the alternative?
>
>
> --
> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 7:33 PM
>
>
> At 19:02 07.01.2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >> Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of
> >> our system of checks and balances.
> >
> >I just love "checks and balances".
> >It is the least perfect system except for all the others already tried.
>
> Did you know that the delegates of the Constitutional Convention
> of 1787 were fearful of "popular rule" and hence the convoluted
> way for electing the US President? See Article 2, Section 1,
> Clauses 2 and 3 of the US Constitution. Amendment 12 changed the
> election system such that the people of a state voted directly
> for the electors instead of the state legislatures selecting the
> electors. The current system is still somewhat outdated as the
> recent Presidential elections have shown.
>
> I am bringing this up because fear of popular rule is deeply
> ingrained in our psyches. This was so in 1787, still is in 2001.
>
> Anyway, I am not suggesting we create a system of checks and
> balances with judges, legislature and an executive. Jakarta is
> too small for that. Jakarta is much more like a software company
> then a nation. It should be run as such. Jakarta committers can
> be viewed as the shareholders of Jakarta.

Neither I.

I am just defending "popular rule", as imperfect as it is, as the
best system. And also defending the "checks and balances" that
avoid any minority of taking advantage of some hole in the rules
to subvert that "popular rule".

Of course that I am pushing the envelope comparing Apache's system
with a democracy - which it is not and should not become. I just
find that the current meritocracy system works quite well.

It is not perfect, but I believe that enforcing too much
strictness would be counterproductive.

As Sam, I see clear signs of progress. Self organization is slowly
happening. We all want the same - we just need some time to find a
way to achieve we all believe in, which is sometimes a slow trial
and error process.

Knowing well some "pseudo-organizized" companies (having worked
with some in the past) makes me quite sure of this. Organizations
with less discipline often end up being much more productive.

If forcing someone to work in a way he/she does not believe in
(especially in software development) is so inefficient in the
corporate world, where labor is paid, imagine what would happen
here.

Spending more time to achieve agreement trough trial and error is
a small price to pay for the stronger synergies that can be
reached later.

Guidance / coaching / "evangelism" and improved communication
channels can be very useful to make convergence faster, but a
heavy hand will just produce an empty "community".


> ...
> vested in the general assembly, that is the assembly of
> shareholders. The same holds true in the rest of Europe and most
> probably in the US and the rest of the world as well.
>
> We are all volunteers. Thus, it is impossible to dictate to
> Apache developers. However, they can be convinced, cajoled or
> gently pressured. Peer pressure is extremely effective but
> requires consensus. Consensus about the community's will, not
> your or my will, but the larger group's will, can be achieved as
> a result of a vote.
>
> In short: We vote. We get a decision about what we want. We
> implement what we want.
>
> Does it make sense? Regards, Ceki

Of course!


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of
> our system of checks and balances.

I just love "checks and balances".
It is the least perfect system except for all the others already tried.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 6:04 PM
>
>
> on 1/7/02 8:55 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >  Be forewarned that the Apache tradition is to allow people with enough
> >  "fire in their belly" to tackle a particular problem that is important
> >  to them the freedom to do so.  If the problems you see are something
> >  that you feel need tackling and the only effective way in
> which this can
> >  be accomplished is for you to become the Jakarta PMC chair,
> then I could
> >  certainly arrange for an election to take place.  I can't guarantee the
> >  results of the election or the success of your quest, but I can do my
> >  part to enable you to pursue your goals.
> >
> >  Think about this for a while, and let me know if this is a
> path you wish
> >  to pursue.
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
>
> Being PMC chair isn't going to help solve any problems because of
> our system
> of checks and balances.
>
> In other words, I don't see PMC chair being any more important or
> special or
> enabled than simply being a member of the PMC, which I already am.
>
> As I already said, I also don't think I have enough backing to:
>
> #1. Get voted into being the PMC chair.
> #2. Make enough of a change to help turn Jakarta around from a slow
> spiraling death.
>
> -jon


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Jon wrote:
>
> There is no community. There is projects which have people who follow them
> blindly.

I do not believe that.

What I am seeing are the same signs Sam sees:

> Sam wrote:
>
> In my, admittedly biased, perspective, I see significant improvement in
> terms of community over the course of the past eleven months or so.  For
> starters, the following results would have been inconceivable at the time:
>
>http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2002-01-07/
>
> I also see an initiative by Ted and others to build a commons are which
> promotes reuse.  Conscientious objectors notwithstanding, they plow
> relentlessly ahead, continuing to make incremental and enduring progress.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 5:05 PM
>
>
> on 1/7/02 3:14 AM, "Paulo Gaspar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I would still prefer having both around.
> >
> > There are users and committers for each that are not
> > willing to move to the other.
> >
> > IMO, community rules.
>
> There is no community. There is projects which have people who follow them
> blindly.
>
> -jon


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RE: On unity and coherence [was Re: [Request For Comment] POI @ apache]

[Paulo Gaspar]

As a newbie (only 1.5 years around) I found the small bio posted by
Stefano on the Cocoon-dev list very interesting and instructive.

This post was triggered by curiosity and know-your-community concerns
that popped up in a couple of Cocoon-dev threads less than 2 months
ago. IMO, the fact that it is written in the first person only helps.

To ease the task of searching for it, I am just attaching it. Maybe
Ted and others can use it as an historic source.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 3:48 PM
>
>
> Ted Husted wrote:
>
> > At this point, I'm reconciled to do more work on the Jakata site using
> > XML in the old-fashioned way.
>
> I can't resonate more with your feelings. That's exactly what made me
> started the 'forrest' effort: the coherence on xml.apache.org and the
> ease of update has been slowly falling apart until now when people can't
> even run in on their machines without getting fonts problems (yeah,
> blocked by fonts problems! go figure!)
>
> > We have some unratified guidelines that expand on the ones (you?)
> > originally set down.
>
> No, that wasn't me to edit that page, even if much was taken from my
> java.apache constitution (as you indicate below), which on my side, took
> from the old dev.apache.org guidelines for [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html
> >
> > If you were able to review them, I would of course very much like to
> > have your comments before making a final update and calling for a vote.
>
> I'm honored. I'll do it ASAP.
>
> > I would also like to add more rationale for some of the guidelines. The
> > recent dicussion regarding coding conventions had less to do with the
> > conventions themselves, and more to do with why we even have
> > conventions. (And having conventions, why don't we enforce them.)
>
> Good point.
>
> > As Jakarta grows, it becomes more and more important that we have better
> > ways to introduce peoole into the fold. Right now, there is a tendency
> > to make someone a Committer and let them find their own way around. At
> > this time, I'd like to go to work on a Committer's guidebook that would
> > help explain how things are done (starting with How to do a Release --
> > which raised the JAR discussion the other day).
>
> Oh, gosh, you are probably unaware of the fact that I'm the one that
> continously pisses people off on the ASF member list (unfortunately
> private) about having those 'committer guidelines' up and running. James
> Davidson and I were the one who made the page on how to setup your SSH
> tunnel for CVS.
>
> Yes, this is the right direction, but people must commit to keep those
> guidelines up 2 date and many people (expecially apache root's) failed
> miserably to do it.
>
> Also we must make those easy to find.
>
> Again, Forrest will help.
>
> > I think the real solution to improving the noise:signal ratio is to move
> > away from the "oral (email)" tradition we have now, and move back toward
> > providing more grassroots documentation, as you did in the "preamble" to
> > the original constition.
> >
> > http://java.apache.org/main/constitution.html
>
> Absolutely.
>
> > An actual history of Jakarta might also be useful to give people a
> > better perspective. Here's one passages I tucked away (to be joined by
> > your own snippets of late).
> >
> > Pier to Jon - Thu, 21 Dec 2000
> > > We've traveled a long
> > > way together, from my very first steps in open-source land in
> January 1998,
> > > to our marvelous meeting at the first ApacheCON in October
> 1998, the Jakarta
> > > room meeting, all JavaONEs, and all we did together to bring
> this project
> > > where it is right now.
> >
> > Pier again, same day
> > > And we, as the newly formed Apache Software Foundation,
> accepted that code
> > > in donation as a point of start for the Jakarta Project. I
> was there, in
> > > that meeting room, that day when we outlined how the process
> would have
> > > evolved, with Jon, Stefano and Brian. And I was there, on
> stage at JavaONE,
> > > when Patricia Sueltz announced the spinoff of the project
> againg with Jon,
> > > Stefano and Brian. If that has been a wrong decision, we four
> are the people
> > > to blame...
> >
> > A coherent history might help with many of the questions about why we do
> > things the way we d