Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

On 2/16/18, Christopher Havel  wrote:
> Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till
> Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all
> day with that.
>
> I'm truly sorry to have to ask...

There's no rush.. Nothing said that a logo has to be decided immediately.

Luke and Ron are at conflict, because of fundamental ideals regarding
serendipitous organization. Ron is skeptical of what good authority
and one individual leading a troupe will bring the world. Luke is
impassioned to bring about destined change as quickly and forcefully
as possible. Ron is by no means an artist capable of inspiring
serendipitous organization (no offense but the title is difficult to
live up to), making the fellow very much a cynic.

Settling this one argument by desperately trying to live up to that
title, isn't going to end their standing conflict. Only bringing a
real artist who can rally real attention can undo that. I agree with
you about the two-tier logo, but it would take something really
inventive to communicate effectively the idea of a risky amateur
project across language barriers. I said once and I'll say again,
someone should invite Wenqing Yan to participate in the project.

https://www.yuumeiart.com/contact/
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/2017-January/012740.html

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Well, that didn't work out. Luke, can I please ask you to hold out till
Sunday? I have company tomorrow helping with that room and I'll be busy all
day with that.

I'm truly sorry to have to ask...
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

FYI -- mostly to Luke -- I've got a two-tier logo design drawn out on
paper, just haven't had a chance to scan it yet. I have a doc appointment
today -- gave myself a friggin limp trying to empty out that room that got
leaked in -- when I get back from the docs cussing me out, I'll try and see
if I can get my scanner to work. It's unfortunately in that problem room,
but it itself escaped water damage. I just have to run a power cord real
quick like.

That should be about 4-4:30pm Eastern US time, with results hitting this
list shortly thereafter... if I need more time, I'll let ya'll know.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Philip Hands]

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018, Pen-Yuan Hsing  wrote:
> On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an
>> obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>   now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an
>>> HDMI connector on the product what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is
>>> put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has
>>> SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH
>>> THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.
>> 
>> Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby
>> project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being
>> either a product or sold.
>> 
>> Over and out,
>> Erik
>
> I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's 
> copyright we're talking about,

I strongly suspect that it is _not_ copyright that we're talking about.

Until Luke or someone else points at an authoritative source to show
otherwise, I would assume that he's just mixed up several of the barely
related branches of law that people unhelpfully lump together under the
"Intellectual Property" umbrella term.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Pen-Yuan Hsing]

On 16/02/18 11:13, Erik Auerswald wrote:

Hi,

I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an
obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

[...]
  now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an
HDMI connector on the product what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is
put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has
SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH
THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.


Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby
project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being
either a product or sold.

Over and out,
Erik


I didn't want to enter this either. But I'd like to clarify that if it's 
copyright we're talking about, then having a "product" or "seller" 
doesn't matter. It's simply about the making of copies, and unlicensed 
copies are forbidden by default regardless of how the copies are used. I 
don't like it and disagree with it's whole premise (see onpon4's earlier 
comment) but that's how it works.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Erik Auerswald]

Hi,

I did not want to enter this flame war, but I want to point out an
obvious misunderstanding of the involved parties:

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 02:51:06PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> [...]
>  now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an
> HDMI connector on the product what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is
> put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has
> SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH
> THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.

Without a "product" and a "seller" there can be no infringement. A hobby
project can exist and be publicly discussed and documented without being
either a product or sold.

Over and out,
Erik
-- 
Do things that have never been done before.
-- Russell Kirsch

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/15/2018 06:43 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware:
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel 
>  wrote:
>> I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but
>> distinct logos should not be a challenge for the general
>> population... even in the USA, where education is somewhat
>> questionable in quality, or in African countries where education
>> is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be able to name
>> e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...

True.  The problem (as I understand it) is when you have even
reasonably intelligent people who can't understand the language.  Few
websites are set up to refuse to serve pages to people who don't speak
the language of the site, and cannot, practically or impractically, be
fully reliably so limited.

If EOMA succeeds, this will be a problem in non-English to English
speaker as well as the currently discussed English to non-English speaker
.

>> 
>> Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone
>> with an iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a
>> tremendous challenge just generally navigating through the world
>> as-is, and we can therefore ignore that use case.
> 
> statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases 
> massively with sample size.  if 100 million is not enough to
> satisfy you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of
> magnitude to a billion people.

I had been thinking about this, and the problem, unfortunately, is not
even just about the 75 IQ outliers.  There is also the problem of
demonstrably intelligent people who seem to shut off their brains
around computers.  Maybe the infamous question about the "any key" is
the low IQ people, but I'm pretty sure it isn't entirely so, and
there's a whole lot of issues one step up that really do seem to trip
up intelligent people.

> 
> sorry chris.  really, we can't mess about with "options" here.
> it's one option or it's nothing at all.  "any colour as long as
> it's black".

Here is why it's "any colour as long as it's black":  Any logo MUST
work not just in colour, but in black and white, or further, embossed,
or engraved without any colour or lightness information remaining.


So far the only solution I see is to have a second term, *not* EOMA, to
refer to hobbyist hacking projects that are theoretically compatible.
The challenge, AIUI, is that such term *cannot* be used in the official
documentation, and even using it on this list, which is (imperfect name
or not) the official EOMA discussion list, is problematic.

This second term will be generated sooner or later.  It's unfortunate
that the need to keep them separate makes the bootstrap process a lot
harder, but that seems to be the price of keeping EOMA pure enough to
work for non-technical users.  And, frankly, for the technical users
who aren't in the mood to fuss with specifications at any given time.

For that matter, being weary of checking compatibility was a large part
of the reason I bought my computer from Think Penguin.

Tor


- -- 
Tor Chantara
http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/
808-828-1107
GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB
  *Be wary of unsigned emails*
Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWoXq7gAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI
+zU2AJ9FvuGqZ+ap0ZmKw1LMsV0SHrCHFwCfbvjwr3suQIb4IhOipZD7dHCJawY=
=rFAD
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:47 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is
> still easily doable.

 give it a shot when you have time - let's work through it when you're back.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Last from phone - got to go, will get back to you later... but this is
still easily doable.

On Feb 15, 2018 11:43 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" 
wrote:

> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel
>  wrote:
> > Quickie from my phone, sorry.
>
>  not a problem
>
> > I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct
> > logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the
> > USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African
> > countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to
> be
> > able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
> >
> > Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with
> an
> > iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous
> challenge
> > just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore
> > ignore that use case.
>
>  statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases
> massively with sample size.  if 100 million is not enough to satisfy
> you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to
> a billion people.
>
>  sorry chris.  really, we can't mess about with "options" here.   it's
> one option or it's nothing at all.  "any colour as long as it's
> black".
>
>  l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> Quickie from my phone, sorry.

 not a problem

> I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct
> logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the
> USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African
> countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be
> able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...
>
> Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an
> iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge
> just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore
> ignore that use case.

 statistically unfortunately the number of 75 IQ outliers increases
massively with sample size.  if 100 million is not enough to satisfy
you that we cannot take risks, increase it by an order of magnitude to
a billion people.

 sorry chris.  really, we can't mess about with "options" here.   it's
one option or it's nothing at all.  "any colour as long as it's
black".

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Quickie from my phone, sorry.

I think the world is not full of stupid people. Two similar but distinct
logos should not be a challenge for the general population... even in the
USA, where education is somewhat questionable in quality, or in African
countries where education is *ahem* borderline extant. You don't have to be
able to name e.g. pink and blue in order to know them as different...

Someone with an iq below say 75 /might/ have trouble - but someone with an
iq that's also a thermostat setting is going to have a tremendous challenge
just generally navigating through the world as-is, and we can therefore
ignore that use case.

On Feb 15, 2018 11:26 AM, "Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton" 
wrote:

> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel
>  wrote:
> > So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers,
>
>  no tiers.  too dangerous, too confusing.
>
> > just have
> > something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra"
> or
> > "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo,
>
>  which means "optional" which means "confusion".  no, sorry chris.
>
> > Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even
> > trying here.
>
>  i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a
> hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different
> ballgame.
>
>  if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest
> dreams, i simply would not be bothering.  at all.
>
>  can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will
> be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means?
>
>
> > ...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the
> > week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll
> be a
> > few hours.
>
>  it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do
> appreciate the distinction you're trying to make and unless you
> can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion
> in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no
> uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be
> no.
>
>  can you do that?
>
> l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:13 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers,

 no tiers.  too dangerous, too confusing.

> just have
> something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or
> "plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo,

 which means "optional" which means "confusion".  no, sorry chris.

> Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even
> trying here.

 i'm trying *really hard* to get across that the risk when you have a
hundred million people buying "stuff" it's a totally different
ballgame.

 if this was only maybe 50,000 people world-wide even in my wildest
dreams, i simply would not be bothering.  at all.

 can you reassure me that out of a HUNDRED MILLION people there will
be ZERO CONFUSION over what a different colour means?


> ...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the
> week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a
> few hours.

 it's appreciated... but no, i do appreciate what you're saying, i do
appreciate the distinction you're trying to make and unless you
can provide GUARANTEED reassurance that there will be ZERO confusion
in the eyes of hundreds of millions of users... no fear, no
uncertainty, no doubt WHATSOEVER, the answer really does have to be
no.

 can you do that?

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

So... have the word "EOMA68" in the logo for both tiers, just have
something that universally indicates "premium" or "certified" or "extra" or
"plus" in the "EOMA68=Certified" logo, and have that something NOT be in
the other logo. (A yellow or gold-colored award-ribbon symbol comes to
mind, but that's just me.)

Luke, with all due respect, it's kind of obvious that you're not even
trying here. This is super easy stuff. This is "grade school" easy. You
should not be flunking art class over this!

...feck it. I've got to get ready for some errands, it's that day of the
week. I'll draw up examples and show you, when I get back later. It'll be a
few hours.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote:
>
>> if specific to one country that would be fine chris.  EOMA68  like
>> HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country.  it's global.
>
>
> Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the
> intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each
> manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language,

  Trademarks and Certification Marks yes you could do that... but you
don't translate the "M" of "Macdonalds" just as you don't translate
"HDMI" or "BLE" or "RYF Endorsed".  you apply for GLOBAL world-wide
Certification on the letters, in that order, E followed by O followed
by M followed by A followed by 6 followed by 8.

 people regardless of native language get to recognise the shape of
those letters LITERALLY as if it was a piece of art.

 even i am getting used to recognising the letters for "Taiwan".

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:

> if specific to one country that would be fine chris.  EOMA68  like
> HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country.  it's global.


Hence why I said "in a local language to the geographic region" where the
intended market is. Obviously there would be more than one of these. Each
manufacturer would be required to write it in eg their own local language,
be that English, Simplified Chinese, some Sanskrit dialect, or whatever. If
they're selling to another region, then THAT region's language takes
precedence -- for example, if a US company wanted to sell to the Tamil
Tigers (which would be problematic, but for other reasons) -- they would
write the words "EOMA68 Certified" in Tamil.

If you want to be extra careful, since English really is something of a
Lingua Franca across the globe at this point, you could require it to be
written TWICE -- once in English and once in the local language.

Again, this isn't rocket science... I really don't understand the
resistance to what is actually a simple and elegant solution that would
cause a minimum of confusion, if any at all...
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

if specific to one country that would be fine chris.  EOMA68  like
HDMI and BLE is not intended for one country.  it's global.
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> Another quick phone post.
>
> YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT
> WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the
> intended geographic region where the device is to be sold.
>
> Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid
> confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol.
>
> On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle"  wrote:
>
>> >  nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE"
>> > or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
>> >
>> >  argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry.  REALLY limited time right
>> > now.
>>
>> Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to
>> put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what
>> I'm doing.
>>
>> Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
>>
>> If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they
>> even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking
>> an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it
>> composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal
>> trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
>>
>> In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the
>> world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And,
>> again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language
>> barriers.
>>
>> BLE they will say custom wifi.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly
>> confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be
>> infringement of the certification.
>>
>> I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if
>> a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by
>> calling it something else. So that's another way how certification
>> law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it
>> hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing
>> a case like that.
>>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Jean Flamelle  wrote:
>>  nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE"
>> or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
>>
>>  argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry.  REALLY limited time right
>> now.
>
> Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to
> put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what
> I'm doing.
>
> Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
>
> If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they
> even mention the word HDMI.

 no it's more than that: the Guardian (Copyright Holders) of the HDMI
Standard begin proceedings according to EXACTLY the same Trademark /
Certification Mark / Copyright Laws that *I* am required to follow

 ... and that begins with "scuse me but you're using the word HDMI
without our explicit expressed consent".

 it's *EXACTLY* the same thing as if you tried to claim that a product
was "RYF Hardware-Endorsed" without actually bothering to contact
the FSF.

 now, it so happens in the case of HDMI that you can simply put an
HDMI connector on the product what you CANNOT AND MUST NOT DO is
put the *WORD* "HDMI" anywhere on your product, because that has
SPECIFIC implications that the seller of that product HAS GONE THROUGH
THE CERTIFICATION PROCESS.

 it's real simple: if you haven't gone through the Certification
Process, *as defined by the Copyright Holder of the Certification
Mark*, you are NOT PERMITTED to put the word "HDMI" on the product.
or whatever the Copyright Holder says that you MUST do in order to
receive the Certification Mark.

 all of this is extremely well-known, by anyone that's done RYF
Certification, HDMI Certification, BLE (Bluetooth Low-Energy)
Certification and so on.

 EOMA68 is absolutely no different.


> Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking
> an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it
> composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal
> trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
>
> In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the
> world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And,
> again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language
> barriers.
>
> BLE they will say custom wifi.

 exactly.

>
> ---
>
> Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly
> confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be
> infringement of the certification.

 this is complex, but it's part of Trademark / Certification Mark Law.
if even through "making something similar" you *still* cause
confusion, to the detriment of the Certification Mark with which you
are "competing", then yes, it doesn't actually matter if you don't
actually put the name "EOMA68" on it, if it runs the risk of breaking
something, or worst case killing someone due to a lithium battery
fire, then under Trademark Law yes my understanding is that i would be
permitted to drop a legal ton of bricks on the heads of the people who
were being irresponsible.

 there was a case involving Harrods and 'Arrods two decades ago.



> I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if
> a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by
> calling it something else.

 or... whatever.

> So that's another way how certification
> law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it
> hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing
> a case like that.

 patents are totally different and in the specific example you
gave yes quite probably.  don't know.  REALLY should not be
replying to this right now.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Another quick phone post.

YedIf the problem with my idea is the word "certified" - DON'T USE THAT
WORD IN THE LOGO but require it somewhere nearby in a local language to the
intended geographic region where the device is to be sold.

Also, the very idea of my two levels, two labels approach is to avoid
confusion. This isn't rocket science. Put away the hydrazine lol.

On Feb 15, 2018 7:34 AM, "Jean Flamelle"  wrote:

> >  nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE"
> > or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
> >
> >  argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry.  REALLY limited time right
> > now.
>
> Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to
> put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what
> I'm doing.
>
> Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.
>
> If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they
> even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking
> an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it
> composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal
> trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.
>
> In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the
> world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And,
> again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language
> barriers.
>
> BLE they will say custom wifi.
>
> ---
>
> Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly
> confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be
> infringement of the certification.
>
> I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if
> a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by
> calling it something else. So that's another way how certification
> law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it
> hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing
> a case like that.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

>  nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE"
> or the Certification Mark "HDMI".
>
>  argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry.  REALLY limited time right
> now.

Don't worry, I think I understand your point of view and I'm trying to
put it in terms everyone else can follow. At least, I hope that's what
I'm doing.

Those are pretty good examples of what I'm talking about.

If someone implements bad HDMI, then I assume they'll get sued if they
even mention the word HDMI. Likewise if a hobbyist documents hacking
an HDMI port to connect to a chip inside an adapter that converts it
composite video, they'll run into either geo-restrictions or legal
trouble, if that adapter fries the HDMI port.

In the US people can say whatever they want, but, elsewhere in the
world, they'll say 18-pin audio-video port to save their butts. And,
again, for good reason because of scam artists exploiting language
barriers.

BLE they will say custom wifi.

---

Luke has mentioned that if Intel makes a card the even looks slightly
confuse-able for an EOMA68, without being certified then that would be
infringement of the certification.

I presume HDMI has probably tested this in various courts, because, if
a someone implements bad HDMI, they can't just get away with it by
calling it something else. So that's another way how certification
law, could be stricter than copyright or trademark law. But, I find it
hard to believe patents owned by HDMI wouldn't be involved in securing
a case like that.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 11:39 AM, Jean Flamelle  wrote:
>> Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed
>> from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way".
>> Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68
>> Certified", which is exactly that.

 remember this is a mass-volume standard, the suggestion itself would
cause massive confusion.  think in terms of, "does the FSF allow such
unclear distinctions about RYF Endorsement" and "why not" and the
answer is, "because confusion has disastrous consequences"

 also, which one is "OKAY" if one "lesser variant" of the standard can
kill someone, but the other one can't?

 ... neither are ok, are they?

> That doesn't get around the internationalization problem.

 no... and i am legally NOT PERMITTED to subdivide continents and
apply different "rules" because that would be anti-D as in FRAND
as in "Discriminatory".


> If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english
> label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the
> word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified.

 nobody gets confused, world-wide, about the Certification Mark "BLE"
or the Certification Mark "HDMI".

 argh can't read the rest too busy, so sorry.  REALLY limited time right now.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

Correction, it is fair use to criticize or make commentary.

Otherwise the word EOMA68 is essentially a copyrighted word.

It's kinda funny and scary to think such things exist.

However they kind of have to, because the confusion does endanger people.

I'll admit the possibility of a battery fire killing someone here is
low, because, if it was likely, then no website would host the
documentation.

The issue is that someone could get hurt as the result of a language barrier.
That is something that creates issues of legal liability in addition
to the moral what-the-fuck.

Also, who is likely to trust a certification if a sleezy seller can
get away with a stunt like that?

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

I think it's important to remember Ron also said this :)

> Lkcl is not my enemy. He does not snide. You do not
> doubt lkcl goes a long way to achieve his goal. You
> know he will not skip his principles. On
> communicating however.

Most everything else seemed like venting misunderstanding.
Well articulated, though!

This falls pretty religiously under trademark law.
However, in this case; the case of a certification mark, that
trademark law is more strict than copyright because there is no fair
use and hobby projects will count as commercial use of the term in
most jurisdictions.

Not using the word EOMA68 and covering up the mark on any pictures, is
pretty important if we don't want to give geo-restrictions a reason to
exist. And, I'm sure Luke doesn't.

---

Can we all just be civil though?
I feel like I've explained this all well enough, is there really
anyone who can still disagree this is the correct course of action?

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

> Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed
> from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way".
> Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68
> Certified", which is exactly that.

That doesn't get around the internationalization problem.

If someone doesn't speak english and they are reading an english
label, not seeing the word certified anywhere but in fact seeing the
word EOMA68, then they might falsely assume the device is certified.

> [void all warrantees]
> if an EOMA68-Certified device is connected to an EOMA68 non-certified
> device. That's rude as heck, IMNSHO, but it does the job.

Luke, wouldn't and again "can't" do that.
Luke is the guardian of a standard and a consultant for ThinkPenguin,
helping them develop their card and documenting everything possible.

I mean Luke could advise ThinkPenguin to do that, but it's kinda
ridiculous and doesn't fix the internationalization problem. When we
talk about someone following these instructions, we're talking about a
sleezy electronics repair shop owner in China. When we talk about
someone dieing, we are talking about that shop owner's customer who
bought a pyra computer after getting shown an instructables page in
english (which they can't read), and being pointed to the word EOMA68.

This is a very realistic and also very real scenario that happens
everyday all over the world.

This is why China Geo-blocks the rest of the world.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

apologies i am going to keep this brief, i am on the clock, an
extremely limited amount of time for this visit to the UK... which
this is causing massive problems for me to have to deal with.  so
please STOP taking up my time.

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 5:09 PM,   wrote:
> Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email
> on the emailing list.

 you can ask, but i go by its contents NOT by whether you have asked.
you are still in moderation because you're pissing everybody off.

>> you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you 
>> don't.
>> every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked
>> or ignored the question.
>
> I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting
> what previous disputes we have had.

 no... i haven't.  you fail, plain and simple, to state clearly that
you respect the rules that are set.  this is why you were placed into
moderation for several months, and you have STILL failed to clearly
state that you intend to respect the rules that i set.

> About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous
> posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the
> effort.

 well, that's just plain fucking rude and is directly contrary to
every single netiquette rule covering interaction with people on a
mailing list for about 30+ years.  why the fuck should WE do YOUR work
for you when you can't fucking well be bothered to do your own
research.

 we're not your "lackeys" ron, helping you to "suck on the great
documentation tit in the sky".


> First one.
> On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card
> crowdfunding. I did so because it can be
> beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles
> on his work and everyone should be scrutinized.
> My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing
> in a crowdfunding.

 _great_.  and that's the only reason why people are now tolerating
you.  you're pissing everyone off, ron.

> My point of view was that for a one
> person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would
> require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right.
> No usable parts have been manufactured so far?
> Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people
> to buy the pc card.
> If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know.
> He could not. It was not his forum.
> Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding.
> Said I could make the crowdfunding fail.

 no, you could undermine the entire EOMA68 project by killing someone
through your incompetence and unwillingness to listen to advice.
which is much much more serious.


> Second one.
> When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list,
> I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in
> my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done.

 actually several people did.  you can't decide what rules YOU want to
follow.  you have to follow the rules of interaction that suit
EVERYONE.

 NOT your own fucking PERSONAL and SELFISH needs.

> And he explained how I should edit posts and
> importantly why I should edit. One argument was,
> he had to read a high number of emails and edited
> posts were time saving for him.

 AND EVERYONE ELSE ON THE LIST.

> I have to accept that my english writing skills are
> limited.

 great.  this is progress.

> My answer to him may have been unclear.

 ... actually, you evaded the question "will you follow the rules, yes
or no".  *that* is why you were placed into moderation.  it was your
unwillingness to LISTEN.

> The content of my answering post was, every
> email list member should decide for himself
> how to edit a post.

 absofuckinglutely NOT.  there are FOUR HUNDRED AND FIFTY OTHER PEOPLE
YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT ron.


> But I accepted his arguments
> about editing posts and told him I would concur.

 actually... you didn't.

> Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not
> concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a
> specific declaration about complying to the rules
> about posting.

 ... which you did... for about a day.  and then stopped.


> To my knowledge from that point none of my
> postings have not complied to rules about posting.
> At some point, not on me request, I got off the
> moderator list.

 yes... because despite you NOT having actually explicitly agreed to
 you know what?  this is taking up far too much of my valuable
time.  i am under a LOT OF PRESSURE right now, i cannot be dealing
with this.


> I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted
> in several rubbish comments.

 no... you pissed a lot of people off... and you've now indicated that
you don't give a shit about what other people think, ron.

 this is not a good sign.

> Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things
> out and not dodge, answer these questions about
> your emailing list:
>
> Should your emailing list aspire to grand the
> highest level of free speech?

 fuck no.

> Do you adhere to the principle of equal 

Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[ronwirring]

Regarding moderator approval. I ask you to display this email
on the emailing list. Thereby enabling transparency and
ensuring that subscribers get to know my arguments.
Not doing so I will hold against you.

> you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you 
> don't.
> every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked
> or ignored the question.

I think you are as happened before exaggerating, and misrepresenting
what previous disputes we have had.
About what follows I have not searched for documentation in previous
posts and emails. Because I am not going to do the
effort.

First one.
On another forum I made some critical posts about the pc card
crowdfunding. I did so because it can be
beneficial for the owner of a project to get more angles
on his work and everyone should be scrutinized.
My main critique was including the pc card laptop housing
in a crowdfunding. My point of view was that for a one
person enterprise that would be to big a task. It would
require a frictionless course. It turned out I was right.
No usable parts have been manufactured so far?
Instead I would have concentrated on getting more people
to buy the pc card.
If lkcl wanted to shut me up or not, I do not know.
He could not. It was not his forum.
Lkcl accused me of sabotaging the crowdfunding.
Said I could make the crowdfunding fail.
An undocumented claim and heavily questionable,
which I told him.
Without being obligated to, I told lkcl I would stop
further postings, should he want me to. I had made
my points known.

Second one.
When posting emails on the arm netbook emailing list,
I wanted to keep all previous posts unedited in
my next post. Lkcl told me, that is not how it is done.
And he explained how I should edit posts and
importantly why I should edit. One argument was,
he had to read a high number of emails and edited
posts were time saving for him.
I have to accept that my english writing skills are
limited. My answer to him may have been unclear.
The content of my answering post was, every
email list member should decide for himself
how to edit a post. But I accepted his arguments
about editing posts and told him I would concur.
Then lkcl misread my post. Believing I would not
concur. Therefore lkcl told me, I had to make a
specific declaration about complying to the rules
about posting. Having done nothing wrong and
perceiving lkcl's request as unnecessarily
cornering, I wrote in a post, that he had misread
my post and he could take any action he should
want to. Then I got on the moderation approval
list.
To my knowledge from that point none of my
postings have not complied to rules about posting.
At some point, not on me request, I got off the
moderator list.

Third one.
In a post I mentioned lkcl in third person. I was
not aware it would be a rude action. Because
I am addressing a bunch of people. When lkcl
asked me to not do so, I explained why I had
phrased the sentence like I did. To me the matter
was insignificant. And I saw no reason to alter my
phrasing. It resulted in lkcl escalating the matter
to become relevant for the moderator approval list.
Looking back on lkcl's outbursting tendencies I
did not pay any attention to it. Even more
because lkcl dances with profanities. Which I do
not.

All this in order to show that I do not do
whatever I want. Some times I do not listen.

I mentioned my free speech in a post. It resulted
in several rubbish comments. I was not
referring to any legal system. I wanted to
state my point of view on free speech in
a forum or on an emailing list.

Lkcl, since you are in favor of straightening things
out and not dodge, answer these questions about
your emailing list:

Should your emailing list aspire to grand the
highest level of free speech?
Do you adhere to the principle of equal matters
must be dealt with equally?
Do you adhere to the principle of proportionality?
 
Because you own this emailing list, you can do
whatever you want. I am not questioning that.
The question is should you do whatever you want?
How you manage your email list tells a tale about
you. If your answer to my 3 questions are no, then I have
misread you as a person and you do not have to
unsubscribe me. I do it myself.

When I wrote 'Has lkcl' you managed to infringe on all
3 principles. There are no strong reasons, other than
your vanity, to prohibit such phrasing. I cannot write
third person. You write profanities, masked or not.
If using third person is an infraction, it is a minor.
Calling in the moderator approval list is an
overreaction.

Part 2.
Lkcl has thrown into the air that I may be
infringing on one or more laws and maybe a license or
certification. I have no overview on this matter.

>  do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright
> Holder of the EOMA68 Standard?
> please answer simply yes or no.

I am not going to answer yes or no until I know what
I am answering yes or no to.

First I want to say, I have never read the standards. 

Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Quick post from phone, in my way to bed. Please excuse top-posting and
occasional typos, if present.

I have a proposal for Luke that I think would solve this problem instantly.

Let there be two "levels" of EOMA68. "EOMA68" by itself can be construed
from now on to mean "compatible with the standard in some reasonable way".
Then, /with a separate and distinct but visually similar/ logo - "EOMA68
Certified", which is exactly that.

Anything that can accept an EOMA68 CPU Card (Luke - is that still the right
term for the card with the guts?) is at least EOMA68. That's your
eBay-and-AliExpress bin, as well as where the hobbyists lurk, and everyone
already knows that junk to be questionable at best, so we take advantage of
that and use it for our own purposes.

HOWEVER, we simultaneously make sure that everyone /also/ knows that the
'good stuff' is EOMA68-Certified. If it's not -Certified, then it's not
trustworthy. Will it work? Maybe. We won't guarantee anything and we won't
warranty anything that isn't -Certified. In fact, if we want to be paranoid
and iron fisted - stick something in the license that voids all warranties
if an EOMA68-Certified device is connected to an EOMA68 non-certified
device. That's rude as heck, IMNSHO, but it does the job.

Of course, that's the so called 'Freemium' way of doing things - I friggin
hate 'freemium', it's usually incredibly dishonest - but, hey, maybe we can
do it right.

What say you, Luke? Float it or sink it... ow, my thumbs... g'nite ya'll...

On Feb 15, 2018 12:32 AM, "Jean Flamelle"  wrote:

> It is also important to note that for all intensive an diy project
> could receive a certification.
>
> Also if you read the first line of that wikipedia article:
>
> "Reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms, also known as fair,
> reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, denote a voluntary
> licensing commitment that standards organizations often request from
> the owner of an intellectual property right (usually a patent) that
> is, or may become, essential to practice a technical standard."
>
> Reading between the lines, the point of the "intellectual property" is
> that it is the leverage has over companies. Without patents EOMA is
> only a word and EOMA has no legal authority to stop imitators from
> just using a slightly different word. With a patent however, a
> standards organization can legally issue a cease-and-desist order.
>
> So this brings up the tough question of how can the EOMA standard
> exert any authority without patents?
>
> Also what will motivate companies to hire Luke as a consultant? That's
> important too, am I wrong?
>
> Community support through donations wins Luke a certain degree of
> independence, so Luke won't have to charge many people consultation
> fees and can give advice more-solely based on merit. Here's an
> interesting question though: what motivates people to donate and will
> that scale as more companies gain interest causing Luke to inevitably
> need to train people to act as consultants on behalf of the EOMA
> project? My hope is, yes.
>
> One way to have leverage is for EOMA to become so popular, companies
> without the mark are actively avoided by a significant fraction of the
> population in given places. This is not to be underestimated, because
> food certifications have demonstrated a lot of success with this
> strategy.
>
> However we should also consider:
> The patent system isn't necessarily broken, if we consider the rampant
> abuse to be the result of scammers. We could see copyleft "public
> commons" patents which are licensed openly to the public so long as
> certain rules pertaining to certain morals are followed. Like with GPL
> violations, any member of the public should be able to make a lawsuit
> against a violator of these rules.
>
> With that possibility in mind, abuse could get worse with copyleft
> principles, because rules could be stupid or misguided. FRAND already
> comes into play with that, so there is already an appeals mechanism in
> place against abusive copyleft or open patent licenses (if I
> understand correctly). Perhaps patent courts could expand to judge as
> fair or unfair the rules of an open patent license. Then such
> standards organizations could form around protecting people and
> certain morals, by prosecuting violators of these open patents.
> Ultimately this could easily turn into an extortion racket with people
> living off of legal and consultation fees. Such an organization should
> live solely on donations and only conduct legal cases pro-bono.
>
> This is were things get weird.
>
> Aren't you asking, "wait if you just implied we should consider living
> off of consultation and legal fees immoral extortion, why are you
> defending patents as a form of leverage used by companies who would be
> able to do that extortion.. you look like you're contradicting
> yourself up and down"?
>
> Well, the fact remains the public benefits if the public shares 

Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

It is also important to note that for all intensive an diy project
could receive a certification.

Also if you read the first line of that wikipedia article:

"Reasonable and non-discriminatory (RAND) terms, also known as fair,
reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, denote a voluntary
licensing commitment that standards organizations often request from
the owner of an intellectual property right (usually a patent) that
is, or may become, essential to practice a technical standard."

Reading between the lines, the point of the "intellectual property" is
that it is the leverage has over companies. Without patents EOMA is
only a word and EOMA has no legal authority to stop imitators from
just using a slightly different word. With a patent however, a
standards organization can legally issue a cease-and-desist order.

So this brings up the tough question of how can the EOMA standard
exert any authority without patents?

Also what will motivate companies to hire Luke as a consultant? That's
important too, am I wrong?

Community support through donations wins Luke a certain degree of
independence, so Luke won't have to charge many people consultation
fees and can give advice more-solely based on merit. Here's an
interesting question though: what motivates people to donate and will
that scale as more companies gain interest causing Luke to inevitably
need to train people to act as consultants on behalf of the EOMA
project? My hope is, yes.

One way to have leverage is for EOMA to become so popular, companies
without the mark are actively avoided by a significant fraction of the
population in given places. This is not to be underestimated, because
food certifications have demonstrated a lot of success with this
strategy.

However we should also consider:
The patent system isn't necessarily broken, if we consider the rampant
abuse to be the result of scammers. We could see copyleft "public
commons" patents which are licensed openly to the public so long as
certain rules pertaining to certain morals are followed. Like with GPL
violations, any member of the public should be able to make a lawsuit
against a violator of these rules.

With that possibility in mind, abuse could get worse with copyleft
principles, because rules could be stupid or misguided. FRAND already
comes into play with that, so there is already an appeals mechanism in
place against abusive copyleft or open patent licenses (if I
understand correctly). Perhaps patent courts could expand to judge as
fair or unfair the rules of an open patent license. Then such
standards organizations could form around protecting people and
certain morals, by prosecuting violators of these open patents.
Ultimately this could easily turn into an extortion racket with people
living off of legal and consultation fees. Such an organization should
live solely on donations and only conduct legal cases pro-bono.

This is were things get weird.

Aren't you asking, "wait if you just implied we should consider living
off of consultation and legal fees immoral extortion, why are you
defending patents as a form of leverage used by companies who would be
able to do that extortion.. you look like you're contradicting
yourself up and down"?

Well, the fact remains the public benefits if the public shares the
morals being protected. Legal cases write lots of documentation which
the public might like to read, if well written. The more injustice an
organization fights this way then the more journalism they have
necessarily done and the more journalistic documents they can easily
publish.
This engineers a service that gratifies donors and will immediately
stop if the donations also stop, motivating people not to be selfish.

EOMA standards organizations can also thoroughly document (through
transcripts, or audio or video journalism) what they were consulted
about and the advice given, so that it becomes easily apparent if they
were warning a company that they were consulting for about potential
violations or if they instead ever used consultation fees as a mode of
extortion.

This mailing list shows EOMA off to a great start in terms open-ness
and thorough journalistic documentation of everything going on. I
fully support Luke and this project, and this is why I again draw
connections between this project and the baby giant company Cloud
Imperium Games, for their record-breakingly thorough self-journalism.

I know they aren't FLOSS, but we need to be like them.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

On 2/13/18, Julie Marchant  wrote:
> On 2018年02月13日 15:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>> he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright
>> Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris.  that's very very
>> serious.  and also publicly recorded.  you can double-check that by
>> re-reading the messages.
>>
>>  i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM
>> the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole
>> exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot
>> tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily
>> permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law.
>
> Luke, I hope you don't find this to be pedantic, but if you do, I would
> point out that RMS is very vocal about this point.
>
> Copyright and trademark law are *not* the same thing. You can't hold a
> copyright on a name, only a trademark. This is an important distinction
> because the way copyright and trademark laws operate is not the same.
>
> As far as being "required to respond", I assume you are referring to the
> possibility of genericide of a trademark, when you lose a trademark
> because you fail to inform the public how it is properly used, causing
> it to be used to mean something more generic, e.g. if people started
> calling SEGA video games "Nintendos". This has nothing to do with
> "liability". It just has to do with whether or not a particular name can
> still be trademarked.
>
> Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is
> neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two
> wrong terms.
>
> Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice.
>

So this is a pretty solid reference:
https://www.bitlaw.com/source/tmep/1306.html

Basically the mark itself is currently ambiguous, so the only known
attributes are the text EOMA68. Until an actual mark is finalized,
EOMA68, in generic font, is the mark.

This isn't a matter of "genericide" but rather certified versus uncertified.
How is the distinction made?
Does one just say this is an EOMA68 housing/card?
Or, do they say they have EOMA68 certification?
The standard usage Luke has maintained is to say something is EOMA68,
so, if you're certified, you don't have to say you're certified. This
means if you see the word EOMA68 that it is strictly certified.

The name of the card is the Libre Tea, so that's what an hobbyist
should say they are using.
If a card is plugged into an uncertified housing, that card should no
longer fits the criteria for the certification, assuming the standard
is worded as it should be.

Why so strict?
Luke, wouldn't have to be strict if the certification mark read
"certified EOMA68", however, the certification mark is simply
"EOMA68", which tactically internationalizes the mark. This way it can
be the same across countries with different languages and, anyone able
to read those letters can trust the certification, regardless of if
they can read the rest of the package.

Say you're Chinese, if you see "EOMA-like" on a package then you might
not understand the word like and assume wrongly that the card is
EOMA68 certified. Luke is liable for that confusion, because, as a
part of the standard, Luke could-have-and-chose-not-to make rules
about what countries EOMA68 cards are allowed to be sold in and about
what languages labels must be printed in.

So let's say that someone wants to be extra-ecological and not use any
packaging, simply having EOMA68 engraved on the card demonstrated
certification. If someone resells damaged cards as new, certification
mark violation could be a pathway to restitution where there aren't
very strong purchaser protection laws. Luke could even define rules
for what to disclose about the assurance checks done when reselling a
used card. Depending on the jurisdiction, resellers would possibly
have to cover or destroy the mark, if they violated any of those
rules.

A standard could become very intrusive, if you think about it, but
only to protect principles. No matter how intrusive, it has to be
FRAND or else courts will order it be dissolved.

If someone is documenting their hobby projects, certifications
shouldn't be mentioned and any certification marks should be covered
in any images or videos. US law probably doesn't require this and
protects their citizens from needing to do this, however Luke may then
be required by the laws of other countries to request the content be
geo-restricted and pursue the liability of the hosting website if the
request isn't honored.
The world of international incorporation is fucking complicated.

Disclaimer: [what Julie said^]

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Having reviewed the message in question (as near as I can determine... I
believe it to be Ron's email, 11 Feb 2016 at 12:09pm) I still see no
problems posed by what Ron is doing or saying.

Luke, I notice that you have not directly responded to any of the ongoing
commentary. I would invite you to speak up again and address what has been
said since your last message.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Julie Marchant]

On 2018年02月14日 11:27, Louis Pearson wrote:
> It occurs to me that Luke is a citizen of the UK, and so may not be
> using US law.

Yes, but I see no reason to believe that the U.K. government would
unreasonably intertwine these completely unrelated laws together in the
way that Luke suggests.

Of course, we do have to know exactly what we are talking about to
discuss this properly.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Louis Pearson]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Julie Marchant  wrote:

> On 2018年02月14日 06:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> >   yes.  my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication
> > Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch
> > of Copyright.
>
> No, copyright has nothing to do with them. Why do you think copyright
> has anything to do with anything you are doing?
>
> Copyright is a legal monopoly on the copying and distribution of a work.
> It was originally invented in Britain as a form of censorship, where the
> monarch would approve printers to print books in the form of a temporary
> monopoly. The current incarnation of copyright exists with the
> justification of encouraging the creation of works, e.g. books. It has
> nothing whatsoever to do with names or certifications. All that
> documentation could be in the public domain and it would make absolutely
> no difference. Heck, a lot of corporate logos are in the public domain;
> you can't copyright fonts, and logos like that of SONY are nothing but
> printed text, meaning they can't be copyrighted.
>
> IANAL, of course.
>
> >  the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable
> > and non-discriminatory).  if the entity known as "ronwirring" were
> > just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim,
> > under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is)
> > that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner
> > of the EOMA68 Certification Mark.
> That's an issue with patent licensing, yet another completely different
> issue you're lumping together with this.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing
>
> But let's assume that certification marks don't allow you to
> discriminate against people in relation to it. That would be the
> granting of certification. Have you threatened to deny certification
> arbitrarily? No? Good. No one has to be a member of a random mailing
> list to get certification for a product.
>
> Still not a lawyer, still not legal advice, of course.
>
> --
> Julie Marchant
> https://onpon4.github.io
>
> Protect your emails with GnuPG:
> https://emailselfdefense.fsf.org
>
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It occurs to me that Luke is a citizen of the UK, and so may not be
using US law. The question is which law is he using? That could
change things quite a bit.

(Which reminds me that outside of the US, giving legal advice is
allowed, even if you aren't a lawyer)
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Julie Marchant]

On 2018年02月14日 06:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>   yes.  my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication
> Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch
> of Copyright.

No, copyright has nothing to do with them. Why do you think copyright
has anything to do with anything you are doing?

Copyright is a legal monopoly on the copying and distribution of a work.
It was originally invented in Britain as a form of censorship, where the
monarch would approve printers to print books in the form of a temporary
monopoly. The current incarnation of copyright exists with the
justification of encouraging the creation of works, e.g. books. It has
nothing whatsoever to do with names or certifications. All that
documentation could be in the public domain and it would make absolutely
no difference. Heck, a lot of corporate logos are in the public domain;
you can't copyright fonts, and logos like that of SONY are nothing but
printed text, meaning they can't be copyrighted.

IANAL, of course.

>  the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable
> and non-discriminatory).  if the entity known as "ronwirring" were
> just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim,
> under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is)
> that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner
> of the EOMA68 Certification Mark.
That's an issue with patent licensing, yet another completely different
issue you're lumping together with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_and_non-discriminatory_licensing

But let's assume that certification marks don't allow you to
discriminate against people in relation to it. That would be the
granting of certification. Have you threatened to deny certification
arbitrarily? No? Good. No one has to be a member of a random mailing
list to get certification for a product.

Still not a lawyer, still not legal advice, of course.

-- 
Julie Marchant
https://onpon4.github.io

Protect your emails with GnuPG:
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 10:07 AM, Philip Hands  wrote:

> IANAL, but I suspect that the confusion arises because Luke is
> (presumably) the sole copyright holder on the canonical documentation
> for the standard, so while there is a Certification Mark (which I think
> is mostly dealt with in line with Trademark law) the thing that defines
> what the Certification Mark actually means is a copyrighted work.

  yes.  my understanding is that Trademarks and Cerfitication
Marks, by being covered *by* Copyright Law, are in effect a sub-branch
of Copyright.

> On the other hand I'd say that Luke has free rein when it comes to
> moderating or expelling people on this list, so the justification is
> largely irrelevant ... although being even-handed about it is liable to
> ensure a better atmosphere amongst those who remain.

 the key thing is that i am *required* to be FRAND (fair, reasonable
and non-discriminatory).  if the entity known as "ronwirring" were
just simply told to bugger off, he could perfectly reasonably claim,
under trademark / certification mark / copyright law (whichever it is)
that he had been "discriminated against" by me, the (copyright) owner
of the EOMA68 Certification Mark.

 thus i *may* not either:

 (a) be nice and let people just do whatever they like

 (b) be heavy-handed and indiscriminately expel people from the list
just because they're being an arse.

the way round this is to ask the perfectly reasonable question, "are
you going to follow the rules" and if the response is either "no" or
there *is* no response... *then* i believe that my obligations have
been met and i can then drop a shit-metric ton of bricks on their
head.  and not before then.

 complicated and not a lot of fun!

 anybody else wants this responsibility they're more than bloody well
welcome to it.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Philip Hands]

On Wed, 14 Feb 2018, Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:30:49PM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote:
>> 
>> Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is
>> neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two
>> wrong terms.
>
> In Canada, I've been old that standards marks are legally recognissed as 
> such and are different from either copyright or trademarks.  I do not 
> now how this is elsewhere.

IANAL, but I suspect that the confusion arises because Luke is
(presumably) the sole copyright holder on the canonical documentation
for the standard, so while there is a Certification Mark (which I think
is mostly dealt with in line with Trademark law) the thing that defines
what the Certification Mark actually means is a copyrighted work.

Of course, mixing those things up, and making assertions about being
forced to do things by Copyright Law when it was almost certainly meant
to be Trademark Law does not help.

On the other hand I'd say that Luke has free rein when it comes to
moderating or expelling people on this list, so the justification is
largely irrelevant ... although being even-handed about it is liable to
ensure a better atmosphere amongst those who remain.

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:

> I honestly don't know of a message archive,

 the specific message that i was referring to was only sent about 2 to
3 hours beforehand.  you should be able to find it easily by
re-reading only about 4 or 5 message back prior to your initial
objection... which resulted in an extension of this thread.  the
archives are where they always have been:
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/

> In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron.

 i'm not "banning" him... unless he fails to understand and respect
Copyright Law and my obligation to follow - to the letter - the FRAND
procedures that are clearly documented in Trademark Law, specifically
those which are relevant to Certification Marks.

 i do not get any choice in this matter, chris.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Hendrik Boom]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:30:49PM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote:
> 
> Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is
> neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two
> wrong terms.

In Canada, I've been old that standards marks are legally recognissed as 
such and are different from either copyright or trademarks.  I do not 
now how this is elsewhere.

-- hendrik

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Julie Marchant]

On 2018年02月13日 15:38, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright
> Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris.  that's very very
> serious.  and also publicly recorded.  you can double-check that by
> re-reading the messages.
> 
>  i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM
> the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole
> exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot
> tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily
> permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law.

Luke, I hope you don't find this to be pedantic, but if you do, I would
point out that RMS is very vocal about this point.

Copyright and trademark law are *not* the same thing. You can't hold a
copyright on a name, only a trademark. This is an important distinction
because the way copyright and trademark laws operate is not the same.

As far as being "required to respond", I assume you are referring to the
possibility of genericide of a trademark, when you lose a trademark
because you fail to inform the public how it is properly used, causing
it to be used to mean something more generic, e.g. if people started
calling SEGA video games "Nintendos". This has nothing to do with
"liability". It just has to do with whether or not a particular name can
still be trademarked.

Either that, or perhaps you are referring to some other law which is
neither copyright nor trademark, and spreading confusion by using two
wrong terms.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[zap]

>  he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright
> Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris.  that's very very
> serious.  and also publicly recorded.  you can double-check that by
> re-reading the messages.
>
>  i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM
> the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole
> exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot
> tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily
> permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law.
Ron seems to be testing your patience... I don't know if banning him
will solve your problem, but I definitely think you should put him under
moderation again.  I know I have made errors too in the past, but I know
that challenging you is a very, very dumb and terrible idea. And he has
gone way beyond anything stupid I have done on this mailing list. ;/
>
>  i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we
> might as well shut the entire project down, right now.
>
>  do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding
> project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the
> rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW?
>
>  please answer very simply, yes or no.
Please do not shut this down.  I like this idea a lot. I look forward to
the shakti processors big time for your modular laptop. :)
>
>  i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this
> seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright
> Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard.
I do respect your authority given you didn't need to do this at all. 

I am curious how close you are to sending the beta version.

> l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

A belated thank you, Tor -- however, the burden of proof rightfully lies
with Luke. Further, I have a room in my house to clean out after a
catastrophic roof leak (not to mention an impending fight with insurance,
which I'm most certainly not looking forward to), and a doctor's
appointment on Friday to discuss the limp I've given myself in that now
weeks-long process. I don't have the time -- nor do I have the inclination
-- to sift and sort and filter through ten plus years of electronic
conversation to prove myself wrong.

As such, my request stands -- Luke, and specifically /only/ Luke (unless he
appoints someone to his defense), when you have time, please present at
least a few messages (or chains thereof) from which a case in your favor
can be made. In the meantime, I'd ask what under the law would be called a
"stay of execution" (pausing the clock) on banning Ron. No, I can't /force/
it, but it's the right thing to do during the controversy, which is why I'm
/requesting/ it.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/13/2018 11:05 AM, Christopher Havel wrote:
> I honestly don't know of a message archive, and my skills at
> searching through ANY archive have historically been a bit lacking
> at best. When you have time, point me to (at least a few) specific
> messages in an archive that make your case, and I'll go from there.

The archive itself is here, which you can sort by sender.
http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-netbook/

> 
> In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron.

My sense has been that his disagreement is in list management and
standards of polite list etiquette, not an issue with inappropriately
moving forward with hardware modifications that are damaging to the
standard.  Still an issue, and one that could result in a ban from the
list aside from certification mark infringement.

Also, I can see that people on this list are reasonably held to a
higher standard of adherence to the standard than the general public.
After all, everyone here has access to the archives of design, and the
ability to ask questions of everyone most involved in making this whole
project happen.

Tor

- -- 
Tor Chantara
http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/
GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB
  *Be wary of unsigned emails*
Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWoNW2wAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI
+y5iAJwJTis3w7BBVinUcndtKEwt9qtJuACfa9IFEqtGu15Nk2VP29zxS9sJiZs=
=rz8r
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

I honestly don't know of a message archive, and my skills at searching
through ANY archive have historically been a bit lacking at best. When you
have time, point me to (at least a few) specific messages in an archive
that make your case, and I'll go from there.

In the meantime, I still think it would be unwise to ban Ron.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:55 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> I don't see that Ron is doing what you're asserting,

 please review the messages, it's very very clear.

> therefore I cannot
> answer your question as you have requested me to do so.
>
> Ron is carrying out a hobbyist project with a product you are seeking to
> sell.

 NO chris.  i am NOT permitted to sell product.  please understand
this!  it is good that you are voicing these misunderstandings.
Certification Mark holders  are NOT PERMITTED TO SELL PRODUCT.

 i have to go: i am under time pressure here, please look up
Cerficiation Marks ok?

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

I don't see that Ron is doing what you're asserting, therefore I cannot
answer your question as you have requested me to do so.

Ron is carrying out a hobbyist project with a product you are seeking to
sell. Nothing more, nothing less. There are acres of paper in every law
school's public library that attest to the fact that, historically, the
liability for such projects lies with the hobbyist -- and that precedent
goes back basically to the beginning of time. It's essentially
unquestionable. (It's also good, old-fashioned common sense!) If you must
insist on seeing that as something else, and therefore an existential
threat to your own project, then you /really/ need to talk to your lawyers
(and, perhaps, a few other professionals as well), because that would
indicate that you have some significant learning to do. I would argue that
that learning should come before any further progress on anything else
happens, although as you rightly pointed out, I haven't the ability to
enforce that sort of a thing.

I understand that you have the /authority/ to shut him down. I myself am
not questioning /that/ -- simply whether or not you should /use/ that
authority. To me, that would be gross overreach. As a metaphor, I'll point
out that every US President since 1945 or so has had the authority to
essentially rain nuclear hell down over all of mankind. Thankfully, so far,
every US President has seen fit not to use that authority.

As I hinted last time, if what you are asserting was actually true, there
would be no Instructables -- or, for that matter, Arduino, probably -- and
the world would in fact be a very, very different place for it. I know I
hate admitting when I'm wrong -- everybody does -- but sometimes it's
easier (and it's always better) than insisting to the end that I'm right
and going down in spectacular flames, somewhat like the Hindenburg.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Christopher Havel
>  wrote:
>
> > Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke.
>
>  he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright
> Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris.  that's very very
> serious.  and also publicly recorded.  you can double-check that by
> re-reading the messages.
>
>  i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM
> the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole
> exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot
> tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily
> permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law.
>
>  i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we
> might as well shut the entire project down, right now.
>
>  do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding
> project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the
> rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW?
>
>  please answer very simply, yes or no.
>
>  i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this
> seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright
> Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard.
>
> l.
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 8:24 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:

> Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke.

 he's calling into question my authority and the right as a Copyright
Holder of the word - and standard - "EOMA68", chris.  that's very very
serious.  and also publicly recorded.  you can double-check that by
re-reading the messages.

 i am REQUIRED to respond to that - by explicitly asserting that i AM
the sole exclusive Copyright Holder of EOMA68 and that i AM the sole
exclusive authority over the EOMA68 Standard, and that i cannot
tolerate people claiming that they are blithely and arbitrarily
permitted to ignore my authority under Copyright Law.

 i have to take this responsibility seriously, chris, otherwise we
might as well shut the entire project down, right now.

 do you wish me to terminate this project - the list, the crowdfunding
project, and to delete the EOMA68 standard page and to terminate the
rhombus-tech project hosting - RIGHT NOW?

 please answer very simply, yes or no.

 i am quite happy to do so if people do not wish to take this
seriously and respect my authority, position and role as the Copyright
Holder and Guardian of the EOMA68 Standard.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Ron is not doing anything that will harm your project, Luke. You're seeing
daggers in shadows and neither are really there. The sort of thing that Ron
is doing happens all the time, nobody in corporate anything has a real
problem with it, and the liability is /always/ assigned to the person
carrying out the work -- in this case that's a third or fourth party, not
you -- if it wasn't like that, there wouldn't BE an Instructables website.
There's a TON of precedent here that you're completely ignoring out of
irrational fear. You're being extremely myopic and paranoid, without
warrant, and --like I said-- you're becoming something of a bully because
of it. God, the Universe, whatever you believe in -- SOMEBODY out there
gave you a noggin. Use it properly. (Hint: how would the insurance industry
deal with the possibility, even, of an Instructables-like website, if
liability was assigned to the copyright/trademark/etc holder of the
original equipment...?)

I would also note that, given that precedent, you are in danger of doing
almost exactly the thing you want to avoid -- giving (in this case quite
negative) unwarranted special treatment to a particular party in exclusion
of all others. Or do you really feel like you must have an iron grip on
absolutely everyone and everything that does anything with your work? IIRC,
that's what Sony tried to do with Betamax, and we all know how /that/
turned out...
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

I think you're being a bit literal there. I don't see any problem with what
Ron is doing. As far as I can tell, he's well within US Copyright Law's
"Fair Use" clause (17 USC Section 107). I realize it's more likely to be
the Berne Convention that would apply here -- but the Fair Use Clause is
something of a benchmark.

I don't see that Ron is intending to derive personal gain or profit from
the use case he's come up with. He's just kind of trying to have fun with a
hobbyist project. Even if that hobbyist project ends up on e.g.
Instructables -- that doesn't reflect on YOU anywhere near as much as it
does HIM. Technically, yes, you've made the project possible, but it's HIS
project, and it's made pretty clear to anyone who subsequently takes on
that project that THEY as a third party (at best) are personally liable for
their own feckups -- and I would bet a goodly sum of money (if I had it)
that the courts would be all to glad to remind them of this, if it came to
that. You'd probably even be able to recoup court costs if anyone was
stupid enough to challenge you directly on that one -- it's simply too well
established.

Forgive me for sayin' -- but you're coming across as something of a bully
here. Your concerns are largely unfounded, given a reasonable, fair, and
equitable court system... which, at least for these purposes, is something
quite reasonable to expect. I realize I'm not in command, but I'm still
going to ask you politely to lay off here.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Christopher Havel
 wrote:
> Isn't that a little harsh?

 considering that ron's response time has consistently been within
that timeframe... i didn't initially believe so.

> Particularly with respect to the time limit.
> Suppose he gets bumped by some old lady's jeep and can't respond in time
> because he's in hospital. Unlikely, but possible.

 true.  if that turns out to be the case, i have no problem with that.
Trademark Law, as best i understand it, *requires* that i be
"reasonable"... so... yes, thank you for picking up on that, chris.

> Also, I will point out that there are ways for Ron to feck around with you
> -- calling it a "PCMCIA computer card", for example.

 true... however Trademark Law *is* sufficiently flexible to recognise
these kinds of tricks.  it's... time-consuming to go through the
process of *proving* that such... underhanded tricks have been
"played"... but if there is a reasonable threat to life (as well as
the reputation of a Certification Mark) as caused *by* someone trying
to weasle their way out of respecting Copyright Law *and* it can
be demonstrated that - through messages *right here on this list* that
they have indeed tried to copy a concept and are intending to bring it
into disrepute in the process you get where that's going, i'm
sure.

> Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'.

 i am not permitted to think in those terms, chris.  i am *REQUIRED*
to protect the EOMA68 Certification Mark.  friends or enemies does not
come into the decision-making process, and could actually be viewed as
VIOLATING the obliigations of Trademark Law by not being "Fair,
Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory" (FRAND).

 treating someone as a "friend"... and giving them *special
privileges*... that could *definitely* be considered to be a violation
of the obligations of a Copyright Holder of a Certification Mark.

 sorry... but that's just how it is.

 i can't mess about here.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Christopher Havel]

Isn't that a little harsh? Particularly with respect to the time limit.
Suppose he gets bumped by some old lady's jeep and can't respond in time
because he's in hospital. Unlikely, but possible.

Also, I will point out that there are ways for Ron to feck around with you
-- calling it a "PCMCIA computer card", for example. We all know that
there's only one of those and so we know EXACTLY what it refers to -- but
because it's not the specific sequence of letters and numbers you've
trademarked, you can't do anything to reign him in -- despite the fact that
you'll probably still have the same liability concerns.

Don't make enemies where you don't have to, Luke. I'm just sayin'.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 5:09 PM,   wrote:

> considered my phrasing short, effective and direct. I do not
> see, why lkcl should limit my free speech on such a minor thing.
> I should not have gotten the request in the first place.

 but you *aren't* free, ron - not in this case.  this is not a forum
for "free speech".  you are here because you are a guest of mine,
where i get to set the rules - not you.  you are required to respect
Copyright Law - which applies SPECIFICALLY to EOMA68 - and you are NOT
free to do whatever you like.

 you seem to believe that you have the right to do whatever you want: you don't.

 every time i have asked you to respect my authority you have ducked
or ignored the question.

 now, i am going to ask you a REALLY simple question, and i am going
to REQUIRE that you explicitly answer.

 do you, ron wirring, accept that i am the SOLE EXCLUSIVE Copyright
Holder of the EOMA68 Standard?

 please answer simply yes or no.

 if you do not answer "yes" within 72 hours i will be forced to simply
unsubscribe you from this list as your continued - long-standing -
lack of respect for my authority can reasonably be interpreted to be a
threat not just to the project but also to the safety of ordinary
non-technical end-users.

 also if you do not answer "yes" i will NOT grant you permission, AS
IS MY RIGHT UNDER COPYRIGHT LAW, to utilise the word "EOMA68" in ANY
way, shape or form.

 are we absolutely clear, ron?

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[ronwirring]

 Original Message 
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <l...@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-boun...@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:21:27 +

> On Tuesday, February 6, 2018, Jean Flamelle <eaterjo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <l...@lkcl.net> wrote:
> > > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,  <ronwirr...@safe-mail.net> wrote:

> he means to ask Luke OR ANY MEMBER

Yes. In case lkcl not answering and there are posts on the pyra
computer in the arm-netbook Archives, someone else could
tell me.

> Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that
> is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think
> it is very helpful.

I wrote 'Can lkcl' not 'arm-netbooks'. That was enough to ignite a
request from lkcl to change the phrasing of future posts from me.
I could have accepted the request. I did not because I
considered my phrasing short, effective and direct. I do not
see, why lkcl should limit my free speech on such a minor thing.
I should not have gotten the request in the first place.

Lkcl, is my phrasing that annoying or offensive or confusing
to you that you believe it is fine to ask me to limit my free
speech? Make your argument.

On this email list there is at least one person who dances with
profanities. I do not know if there is a rule about that. There
should be. I have not corrected that person for such
phrasings. For two reasons. It happens rather seldom.
And considering how it would limit the persons free
speech I refrained.




> reminder ron: i set the rules here, you do not. that is my role as lead,

That is correct. How you set your rules and govern them shows
people how fit you are on this task.

> and you are free to ignore those rules if you are also happy to accept the
> consequence that i am free to put you into moderation mode (again).

I react to arguments not the fact that I can get excluded.

> > arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
> > http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> > Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Philip Hands]

On Tue, 06 Feb 2018, zap  wrote:
> On 02/06/18 17:15, Tor, the Marqueteur wrote:
>> On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote:
>>
>> >> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke
>> >> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or
>> >> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If
>> >> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here
>> >> suggest better wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that
>> >> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the
>> >> meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react
>> >> as desired, to future uses of such wording.
>> > Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic...
>> snip...
>>
>> Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if
>> Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than
>> "Has Luke..."
>>
>> > So yeah, what is the pyra computer again?
>> 5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go:
>> https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/
> Interesting... I see, it looks like a very small laptop kind of like the
> size of a  nintendo ds...
>
> all though it has more options, buttons to press, and of course no
> crapware/proprietary crap.

Also, ludicrous attention to detail -- the previous incarnation took at
least an extra 6 months because they didn't like the feel of the gaming
nubs and/or their robustness so went through _many_ test versions and
suppliers IIRC.

If you want an open gaming platform that will survive several
generations, this is probably it.

(BTW I have no affiliation, and don't even own one as I'm not really
into games, but if my kids want such a thing they'll be getting these
rather than nintendos).

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
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|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018, zap  crap.
>
>
> Still, impressive... I hope they pick a processor that isn't vulnerable
> to spectre and meltdown. xD
> >
> >
>
>
cortex a15 dual. probably omap5. baby version is a7. probably isnt but
goodvidea to check. modukar design so can replace.

>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[zap]

On 02/06/18 17:01, zap wrote:

>>    May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR
>> ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or
>> opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If some one means
>> to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better wording
>> than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more
>> --verbose.
>> :^)
>>    Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be,
>> persons will react as desired, to future uses of such wording.
> Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that
> is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think
> it is very helpful.
>
> So yeah, what is the pyra computer again?
ps, I know I am guilty of this too, But yeah, I just felt the need to
point this out because its happened many times.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Tor, the Marqueteur]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 02/06/2018 12:01 PM, zap wrote:
> 
>> May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke
>> OR ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or
>> time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If
>> some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here
>> suggest better wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that
>> persons needed Ron to be more --verbose. :^) Ron, if this is the
>> meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react
>> as desired, to future uses of such wording.
> Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic...
snip...

Since I'm replying, I can see that the wording "Does anyone know if
Luke has..." seems more polite and proper is the scheme of things than
"Has Luke..."

> So yeah, what is the pyra computer again?
5" mini laptop/game console, very open as such things go:
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/




- -- 
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http://www.fineartmarquetry.com/
808-828-1107
GPG Key: 2BE1 426E 34EA D253 D583 9DE4 B866 0375 134B 48FB
  *Be wary of unsigned emails*
Stop spying: http://www.resetthenet.org/
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iF0EARECAB0WIQQr4UJuNOrSU9WDneS4ZgN1E0tI+wUCWnoo5wAKCRC4ZgN1E0tI
+/jrAKCBIGX2+STJs5n+xDJ3xKE4NNooHACglWVWCQtXQCgXEFEtaTY8tk7GOds=
=y9/m
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[zap]

>    May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR
> ANY MEMBER, to give an opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or
> opportunity, means that Luke can do that something.  If some one means
> to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better wording
> than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more
> --verbose.
> :^)
>    Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be,
> persons will react as desired, to future uses of such wording.
Just my two cents, but this has gotten WAY off topic... amusing as that
is for me, its not the purpose of this mailing list... and I don't think
it is very helpful.

So yeah, what is the pyra computer again?
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[chadvellacott]

On 18.2.5 11:53, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,   wrote:


If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
Then I want you to answer.
If I write: Can lkcl ...
Then all on the email list may answer.


 the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by
that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my
personal name?

l.

   May-be if Ron says , he means to ask Luke OR ANY MEMBER, to give an 
opinion as to whether Luke's ability or time or opportunity, means that Luke can do that 
something.  If some one means to convey THAT, I have not noticed any one here suggest better 
wording than Ron's wording.  But it seems that persons needed Ron to be more

--verbose.
:^)
   Ron, if this is the meaning, then please confirm.  And then may-be, persons will react as 
desired, to future uses of such wording.


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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tuesday, February 6, 2018, Jean Flamelle  wrote:

> On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,   wrote:
> >
> >> If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
> >> Then I want you to answer.
> >> If I write: Can lkcl ...
> >> Then all on the email list may answer.
> >
> >  the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by
> > that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my
> > personal name?
> >
> > l.
>
> A lead participating in community as a regular member, is important.


indeed.  and using the personal initials of the lead developer (me) to
refer to the members, over whom i have absolutely no authority or control
exvept as the dual role / capacity of list moderator, particularly when
there already exists a unique and separate and distinct naming convention
("members of arm-netbooks") is massively confusing and thus is
inappropriate.

reminder ron: i set the rules here, you do not. that is my role as lead,
and you are free to ignore those rules if you are also happy to accept the
consequence that i am free to put you into moderation mode (again).



This is difficult task not many will understand the value of, much
> less appreciate.
>
> If we don't address Luke directly, we depreciate a great deal of energy.
> Exaggerating what many could answer, deprives meaning from those few
> or the only one who can answer rigorously accurate.
>
>
confusion by not following normal conventions, by inventing new ones that
nobody was consulted about, places a burden on absolutely everybody to work
out what the hell is going on.




> Transparency requires tinted windows.
> Openness requires passionate effort.


funny. nice analogy and also true.



>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Jean Flamelle]

On 2/5/18, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton  wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,   wrote:
>
>> If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
>> Then I want you to answer.
>> If I write: Can lkcl ...
>> Then all on the email list may answer.
>
>  the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by
> that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my
> personal name?
>
> l.

A lead participating in community as a regular member, is important.
This is difficult task not many will understand the value of, much
less appreciate.

If we don't address Luke directly, we depreciate a great deal of energy.
Exaggerating what many could answer, deprives meaning from those few
or the only one who can answer rigorously accurate.

Transparency requires tinted windows.
Openness requires passionate effort.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 5:28 PM,   wrote:

> If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
> Then I want you to answer.
> If I write: Can lkcl ...
> Then all on the email list may answer.

 the list's name is "arm-netbooks", best to refer to everyone on it by
that, rather than confuse the use of my personal initials of my
personal name?

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[zap]

  ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd
 person?  i'm right here!!!
> If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
> Then I want you to answer.
> If I write: Can lkcl ...
> Then all on the email list may answer.
Not that talking in third person isn't amusing to me, but Luke doesn't
seem to like it.

Probably not a good idea to piss him off..
>> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
>> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
>> Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk
> ___
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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[ronwirring]

 Original Message 
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <l...@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-boun...@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 23:09:31 +

> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 9:38 PM,  <ronwirr...@safe-mail.net> wrote:

>  they didn't like the modular concept :)  they also really didn't like
> the standard.
> 
>  plus, the form-factor is a bit small to fit a 5x54x90 card and
> associated socket.

About the pyra's computer devices, do we know how well suited
they are to get connected to an eoma pc card?
My thought was to have a modified part of the pyra's cabinet
to enable inserting an eoma pc card.
 
> >>  ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd
> >> person?  i'm right here!!!

If I write: Lkcl, can you ...
Then I want you to answer.
If I write: Can lkcl ...
Then all on the email list may answer.

> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[ronwirring]

 Original Message 
From: Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton <l...@lkcl.net>
Apparently from: arm-netbook-boun...@lists.phcomp.co.uk
To: Eco-Conscious Computing <arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 05:51:57 +

> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:46 PM,  <ronwirr...@safe-mail.net> wrote:

>  yes lkcl has been in touch with the pyra team.

Anything to report?

>  ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd
> person?  i'm right here!!!

If I write lkcl, I ask all persons on the email list.

> arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk
> http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook
> Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.co.uk

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Hendrik Boom]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 05:51:57AM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> 
>  yes lkcl has been in touch with the pyra team.
> 
>  ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd
> person?  i'm right here!!!

So am I.  The use of second person can be confusing.

-- hendrik

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Re: [Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:46 PM,   wrote:

> https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/getting-closer.82436/
>
> I cannot remember if I previously have posted about the pyra computer.
> You can notice some of the same problems you see about
> the pc card.
>
> It seems the pyra's cabinet has been made. The cabinet has no
> pc card port. Has lkcl been in contact with pyra?

 yes lkcl has been in touch with the pyra team.

 ron can i ask you the favour of not referring to me in the 3rd
person?  i'm right here!!!

 l.

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[Arm-netbook] pyra computer

[ronwirring]

https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/getting-closer.82436/

I cannot remember if I previously have posted about the pyra computer.
You can notice some of the same problems you see about
the pc card.

It seems the pyra's cabinet has been made. The cabinet has no 
pc card port. Has lkcl been in contact with pyra? The
cabinet has no pc card slot. Is the pyra's cabinet relevant to
the pc card?

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