Re: [Aus-soaring] Air France A330 Flight 447
Thanks Macca. It is certainly very difficult to get a mixed message here: Sullenberger makes his viewpoint crystal clear. Talking about mixed messages, I was earlier trying to make some sense out of the last bit of the transcript from the flight without much luck. However one of the other vids on YouTube made it quite clear that the 3 pilots had displays, each fed with their own individual pitot input, and of course as a result, each pilot was getting DIFFERENT information. End of MY confusion, whilst they were discussing THEIR confusion. Apparently one pilot (at least), ended up with a correct set of inputs. Anybody know who this was? According to Lindsay Holmwood "Computer Geek and Software Manager at Bulletproof Networks"), it would seem that elsewhere Sullenberger has talked about Systems and Man/Machine interface, and is quoted by Holmwood as saying "If you look at the human factors alone, then you're missing half or two-thirds of the total system failure." Does anybody on this forum want to make comment on this? As an aside "TOCA" appeared in the transcript. This is what the flight computer was showing shortly before the fatal impact. If you want to know what it means here it is; Take Off Go Around.( Yeah, not in the least helpful.) Can anybody update me on the current status of the criminal proceedings, brought by the French Government against Air France, and Airbus? Here is a last question to the members of this forum. I have no understanding of the capabilities of the Airbus instrumentation. However it would seem that there is a instrument that displays the pitch angle of the aircraft to the pilots: The Captain said he was in a 10 degree attitude just prior to impact. We all know that pitch angle (angle of attack), and stall are intimately related. So if the aircraft was stalled at 38,000' or so, this onboard instrument would be indicating the fact, and the pilot should have reacted and taken the appropriate (quite routine), action to correct the situation. I would be interested to know the height loss figures for recovery from a straight ahead stall for this aircraft. Can anybody provide this information? Gary - Original Message - From: Ian Mc Phee To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2013 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Air France A330 Flight 447 Also is an interview with sullenberger on US TV channel on YouTube re air France flight 447. Initially he sits in an Airbus simulator explaining how it happened with individual side sticks. He then sits in a Boeing simulator with reporter and explains with the Boeing it could not happen as the other pilot would have the control column in his lap and realise something is really wrong with control position. As Norm Sanders said on the Andrew Bolt report on channel 10. "If it ain't Boeing I ain't going". Ian m On 13/05/2013 6:09 PM, wrote: Hi All, A rather dark and depressing - it should never have happened - event, from which obviously lessons have been learnt: Pity about the cost in human lives! I didn't see the TV program that Ross refers to, so maybe some of what I mention below, may have been touched on. Whilst it is a bit off-topic, there is another absolutely fascinating side to this story that involved the search and recovery of wreckage from the crash, and in particular the 'black-boxes" - flight data recorder, and cockpit voice recorder - from an ocean depth of around 10,000'. If you are the slightest bit interested, Google "Flight 447" and go on from there. Whilst the information on the web just gives you the dry facts, you can be quite certain that there must have been a huge amount of high drama going on (in many places), over the search period and beyond. The search itself spanned the period 31 May 2009 - 2 May 2011. Other related threads include the Technical Investigation, which concluded on the 5 May 2012, and a Criminal Investigation that commenced on 5 June 2009. Whilst initially totally routine, preliminary manslaughter charges were laid in March 2011 firstly against Airbus and the next day against Air France. As of 13 May 2013, The NY Daily news stated "..court battle continues", referring to Air France. Like many true stories, you can be certain that the stories here leave fiction for dead! Would make at least one great movie for sure. Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Air France A330 Flight 447 Thanks Mike. I was also aware of this information from both this source, and from another which I've been unable to rediscover. I've tried to keep up with the AF 447 disaster information flow from day one. It is a fascinating jigsaw which reveals a who
Re: [Aus-soaring] Air France A330 Flight 447
Hi All, A rather dark and depressing - it should never have happened - event, from which obviously lessons have been learnt: Pity about the cost in human lives! I didn't see the TV program that Ross refers to, so maybe some of what I mention below, may have been touched on. Whilst it is a bit off-topic, there is another absolutely fascinating side to this story that involved the search and recovery of wreckage from the crash, and in particular the 'black-boxes" - flight data recorder, and cockpit voice recorder - from an ocean depth of around 10,000'. If you are the slightest bit interested, Google "Flight 447" and go on from there. Whilst the information on the web just gives you the dry facts, you can be quite certain that there must have been a huge amount of high drama going on (in many places), over the search period and beyond. The search itself spanned the period 31 May 2009 - 2 May 2011. Other related threads include the Technical Investigation, which concluded on the 5 May 2012, and a Criminal Investigation that commenced on 5 June 2009. Whilst initially totally routine, preliminary manslaughter charges were laid in March 2011 firstly against Airbus and the next day against Air France. As of 13 May 2013, The NY Daily news stated "..court battle continues", referring to Air France. Like many true stories, you can be certain that the stories here leave fiction for dead! Would make at least one great movie for sure. Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, May 13, 2013 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Air France A330 Flight 447 Thanks Mike. I was also aware of this information from both this source, and from another which I've been unable to rediscover. I've tried to keep up with the AF 447 disaster information flow from day one. It is a fascinating jigsaw which reveals a whole series of events which conspired to bring about the tragic final result. The mistakes made by the pilot(s) - in particular Bonin - are the easiest ones to attack. However there were other factors involved which are outside of the charter for discussion on this list - equipment failure, weather, darkness, absence of the captain from the cockpit through a zone of known bad weather, pilot training and experience and the aircraft design philosophy itself. It will probably discussed and argued for a very long time to come. Terry N On 13/05/2013 10:57 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: I thought I had seen something like this in relation to AF447 The guy flying was Cedric Bonin From pprune: 10th Dec 2011, 04:06 #711 (permalink) ChrisJ800 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Australia Posts: 107 Bonin experience from 3rd interim report, anyone have more details? Private Pilot's License issued in 2000 ATPL theory in 2000 Professional pilot's license issued in 2001 Multi-engine instrument type rating issued in 2001 Glider pilot's license issued in 2001 Following his selection by Air France, pilot training course at the Amaury de la Grange piloting school in Merville from October 2003 A320 type rating issued in 2004 (within Air France). End of line training and pilot in command for first time in September 2004 ATPL License issued on 3 August 2007 Additional A340 type rating issued in February 2008 (with Air France). End of LOFT and pilot in command for first time in June 2008 Additional A330 type rating and LOFT in December 2008 Bolding mine. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5819 - Release Date: 05/12/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Come & Get It Trophy
Good try buddy, but you slipped up on one vital point. We all know that Ingo flies (and flew) out of TOCUMWAL - not Benalla. - Original Message - From: james dutschke To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Come & Get It Trophy Ingo Renner was the first claimant of the come and get it trophy. He launched from Benalla, picking it up from the originators home club, Lord Howe island gliding club (LHIGC). On 09/05/2013 8:22 PM, "jim crowhurst" wrote: How far is it from Kingaroy to Bathurst? JIm From: wommamuku...@bigpond.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 18:53:25 +1000 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Come & Get It Trophy Well you might as well give that one to the Victorians too From: Paul Mander Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 6:44 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Come & Get It Trophy No, but we all know that the We Don’t Want It Trophy resides at Bathurst, having been delivered there by the Hunter Valley Gliding Club. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Timbrell Sent: Thursday, 9 May 2013 2:07 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] NSW Come & Get It Trophy Can anyone tell me where the trophy currently resides? mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5809 - Release Date: 05/08/13 <>___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Old Peschges vario
Mike's question is a fair one. As I recall, the saying at the time was that you needed to own 3 units for one installation: One in the glider, one at the factory, and one in transit! Maybe Griffo will pay you to take them away? Yeah, I agree with Macca. Griffo might also have manual or two in that cupboard as well - if the mice have not already got them! Perhaps Macca or some other kind soul will give you Griffo's contact details - offline of course. Let us all know how you fared. Good luck! Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Old Peschges vario Yes, Griffo might be your best bet. The VP2 would have to be 30 years old. They weren't the most reliable when they were new. Are you sure you want to bother with it? Some years ago the company went out of the sailplane vario business. It was my understanding that they supported the two year warranty then quit. There don't seem to be any glider instruments on the website now, just power plane instruments. Mike At 04:45 PM 18/04/2013, you wrote: Peter Griffiths has a cupboard of them Ian McPhee On 18/04/2013 2:36 PM, "Ross McLean" wrote: Hi Trevor Try Paul Remde at Cumulus Soaring http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/ p...@remde.us Or you could try calling Peschges in Germany (49-241-563021) ROSS _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of trevor.bu...@bigpond.com Sent: Thursday, 18 April 2013 12:58 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Old Peschges vario Does anyone have a manual for a PESCHGES VP2D-M Vario/ Flight Computer I could have a copy of? Trevor Burke ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5752 - Release Date: 04/17/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13
Yeah, Just right click on her name, and you have it. ...!! Gary - Original Message - From: chee...@internode.on.net To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 115, Issue 13 Tim, Cathy's email address was on the top of the message! Ann Message: 3 Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 16:31:03 +0930 From: Catherine Conway Subject: [Aus-soaring] A,B,C Certificate tests To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Message-ID: <516a542f.7000...@internode.on.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi All I've been looking on the GFA website for the latest A,B,C Certificate tests to give to some student pilots, but I can't find them anywhere. Am I missing something or have they disappeared? -Cath -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5743 - Release Date: 04/13/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] "Back to the AIS" Article in March -April isue ofGA
Hi All, This is really a BS issue of little relevance to anything, given that the scales served their purpose, in establishing that it was essential to keep hydrated whilst flying gliders. However the point here is "just exactly where are the scales today?" given that they are without doubt GFA property. Ann thinks??? she may have given them to Lisa Trotter. For various reasons I find this unlikely. However for the record, I ask the question, "Lisa do you have the scales, or know anything about where they might currently be"? In further looking into this matter, in a GA article (the date of which I failed to note) Maurie described the scales, their cost, and their accuracy (which was "within 50 grams"), the results that he had achieved, and what his further intentions were. In this last matter, in a nutshell, he wanted to do multiple tests on the same pilot over as many flights that he could record. As far as I can tell this never happened, as of course Maurie suffered health issues, which soon thereafter led to his death. What you must understand here, is that what Maurie was doing was a very intrusive procedure, and that he was relying totally on the good-will of the pilots who agreed to be part of his experiment. So from that aspect the experiment was a "bit ad hoc". However, I think it says a great deal about the man in that he was able to get the cooperation of the top competition pilots of the time. For the record, the heart rate monitors were strapped around the body at chest height under the pilots clothing. Cathy has told us what happened to those monitors. Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Home To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, April 01, 2013 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] "Back to the AIS" Article in March -April isue ofGA My memory is that they were a set of bathroom type scales, so no hidden issues in trying to find them. Sure we can get a set from a garage sale? Terry Sent from my iPhone On 01/04/2013, at 7:14 PM, Peter Champness wrote: He must have lent them to somebody. On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Catherine Conway wrote: Hi Gary I inherited the polar heart rate monitor from Maurie as RTO/S at the time. But there were no scales, I suspect he hired or borrowed them possibly from SASI (SA Sports Institute) although I'm not sure. I don't think they are being hidden anywhere. The polar monitor died. It was a very early and rather larger model than the current ones. It was not an economic repair and they are cheap enough now that many people buy their own. -Cath On 30/03/2013, at 10:30 PM, wrote: > After Maurie died, I enquired as to the whereabouts of these scales. I first contacted Cath Conway and then Bernard Eckley , both being RTO Sports SA around this time. Each denied having the scales, although knowing about them. It is highly unlikely that the scales were sent to the local tip. So I wonder where these scales ended up? Who has a VERY accurate set of bathroom scales? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5717 - Release Date: 03/31/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Scales & Weight Loss
Hi Ann, Thanks for getting back to me. I note the name spelling mistake! Don't worry about digging out the old files. However do you know if Maurie came to any conclusions from the heart rate info? Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Ann Woolf To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2013 3:52 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Scales & Weight Loss Yes Gary, we did have the scales and I think I remember passing them on to Lisa Trotter. Although I could be wrong there. They were, I think, GFA property. Don't know why you didn't ask me at the time as I had to deal with all Maurie's things! I will try to look out the stuff Maurie & I did on the weight loss during flight. It was quite often about 2kg or more. I think I still have all the heart rate info too. I don't know if Maurie published it all. If so, it would be in one of the A4 type S&Gs. Gary, I will look out all the files on this and pass them on to you if you are interested. Ann On 31/03/2013 12:00, aus-soaring-requ...@lists.internode.on.net wrote: Interesting that you mention a comparison with motorsport. Maurie Bradley (Bradney)(who incidentally, as National Coach at that time, originally set up the first visits to the AIS), liked to draw a comparison with marathon runners. You mention doing weighing to measure water consumption. You do not have to do this. If you started a flight with 5 law of drinking water and ended with 3 law left, then it is quite obvious that you consumed 2 law! This means nothing! However, among the many things that Maurie did to advance our sport (almost certainly for the first time anywhere in the world), was that he did a great deal of actual weighing of competition pilots, before and after a flight.[In passing, I might mention that he also fitted out - generally the same pilots who agreed to being weighed - many pilots with a heart rate monitor. It would seem reasonable that these would give a level of stress, when correlated against the pilots verbal report. (and maybe GPS data - this may have been before GPS was available???) Anyway, under stress, glider pilots routinely recorded heart rates of well over 200 .Personally, I do not find this surprising. Re weight loss, what Maurie found out was that inevitably, there was a significant daily weight loss of pilots flying in competitions. Ann Woolf , can you give us more detail? I am sure that Maurie must have published this data, and of major importance, the conclusions he drew. Matthew, what you must understand is that in this weighing, a set of bathroom scales WILL NOT DO. Maurie used scales that measured to within a few grams. Obviously these scales cost a whole lot more than everyday bathroom scales. A figure that springs to mind is $400 at the time. However I am prepared to be corrected on this. After Maurie died, I enquired as to the whereabouts of these scales. I first contacted Cath Conway and then Bernard Eckley , both being RTO Sports SA around this time. Each denied having the scales, although knowing about them. It is highly unlikely that the scales were sent to the local tip. So I wonder where these scales ended up? Who has a VERY accurate set of bathroom scales? Gary -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5715 - Release Date: 03/30/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] "Back to the AIS" Article in March -April isue of GA
Hi Matthew, Enjoyed your article. I have contacted you via Aus-Soaring, as there may be a valuable discussion thread here. Whose idea was it to take a group photo in front of a crowd photo? Somewhat Daliish, or perhaps more like something Woody Allen would do? Can you please name everybody in this group shot? In time, it might prove to be historically valuable. Brian Hayhow is mentioned, but I do not see him. Am I missing something? Were the under 20 Woman basketballers tall? Being the AIS, I know that they attend to detail. For example basketballers staying there sleep in specially made beds to suit their height! However each participants' cell is large enough to cope with these giant beds. BTY, as far as I know they are all single beds! Yeah, recovery is very important. It would seem that you totally missed the availability of the AIS Sauna. In my opinion an essential piece of kit in any club that is serious about looking after its XC pilots! With one of these, you do not have to worry about fiddling with the hot and water taps! I am sure that for the silver tongued, grants might be available for the initial Sauna installation, but I have no idea on operating costs. However I suspect that these might be horrendous. Comments please. Interesting that you mention a comparison with motorsport. Maurie Bradley (who incidentally, as National Coach at that time, originally set up the first visits to the AIS), liked to draw a comparison with marathon runners. You mention doing weighing to measure water consumption. You do not have to do this. If you started a flight with 5 law of drinking water and ended with 3 law left, then it is quite obvious that you consumed 2 law! This means nothing! However, among the many things that Maurie did to advance our sport (almost certainly for the first time anywhere in the world), was that he did a great deal of actual weighing of competition pilots, before and after a flight.[In passing, I might mention that he also fitted out - generally the same pilots who agreed to being weighed - many pilots with a heart rate monitor. It would seem reasonable that these would give a level of stress, when correlated against the pilots verbal report. (and maybe GPS data - this may have been before GPS was available???) Anyway, under stress, glider pilots routinely recorded heart rates of well over 200 .Personally, I do not find this surprising. Re weight loss, what Maurie found out was that inevitably, there was a significant daily weight loss of pilots flying in competitions. Ann Woolf , can you give us more detail? I am sure that Maurie must have published this data, and of major importance, the conclusions he drew. Matthew, what you must understand is that in this weighing, a set of bathroom scales WILL NOT DO. Maurie used scales that measured to within a few grams. Obviously these scales cost a whole lot more than everyday bathroom scales. A figure that springs to mind is $400 at the time. However I am prepared to be corrected on this. After Maurie died, I enquired as to the whereabouts of these scales. I first contacted Cath Conway and then Bernard Eckley , both being RTO Sports SA around this time. Each denied having the scales, although knowing about them. It is highly unlikely that the scales were sent to the local tip. So I wonder where these scales ended up? Who has a VERY accurate set of bathroom scales? Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
Yeah Mark, I agree that a good working wheel-brake is essential. I seem to recall that something similar to what you described with the Arrow also happened on the Benalla airfield - I think it was about the time of the last pre-worlds. Maybe some old Benalla hand can supply the details? The other argument for a minimum energy landing is of course, that you do not have to push the glider so far back - always to the fence if you are wise - if you are getting an aerotow retrieve. I learnt about this on my first or second dual XC, when part of the exercise was to deliberately outland the 2-seater into a paddock. My Instructor had briefed me about minimum energy landings, but in the event I was a bit long. After we had huffed and puffed our way back to the fence, he had the grace to only say - I think you now understand why I advised you to land short! This is advice I have never forgotten. What I am talking about here, relates to relatively benign days ONLY! HOWEVER, it is horses for courses, and there are many outlanding situations where the application of the principle, requires you to fly somewhat radical circuits, or possibly straight ins - best avoided (if possible), in most circumstances. Here are a some -real - scenarios for you to consider. Landing in 30 - 50 kn winds, landing over high trees, or worse still, a landing that needs you to consider a combination of both these two elements. One more: You are flying on a wave day and encounter 3000 fpm down. You are at 6000' over unlandable country. Gary - Original Message - From: Mark Newton To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings On 17/03/2013, at 7:55 PM, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Of course, for relative newcomers to the sport, what Byars & Holbrook, were really warning about, was avoiding running into unexpected obstacles, on the ground run. An argument for fully held off minimum energy landings and serviceable wheel brakes: Here are some possibilities that I have heard about, that might spoil your day. ASC had a photo of an Arrow suspended above a drainage ditch by its wingtips. The story I heard (apocryphal, but it sounds good around the bar) was that the pilot lined-up on the ditch thinking it was a vehicle track, and only realized it had depth when it was too late. - mark -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5684 - Release Date: 03/17/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
Further to my earlier posting, I recall that something similar happened to one of our Ozzie pilots in a pre-worlds in Italy, quite some years ago. I may not have the story exactly right, but as I understand it, the ship he was flying had a tail wheel, and after he had done his ground run up the slope, the ship just rolled backwards until he stopped in a creek - sorry, stream. Unfortunately this resulted in - relatively minor?? - damage to the aircraft, which however precluded any further flying in the contest. Simon, Have I got the story right, and if so, is there any comment that you can add with 20/20 hindsight? Of course, for relative newcomers to the sport, what Byars & Holbrook, were really warning about, was avoiding running into unexpected obstacles, on the ground run. The possibilities are almost endless! You must understand that outlanding paddocks can vary from something better than the home airfield, to rock-filled pocket handkerchiefs, inevitably filled with potentially dangerous ground features masked by high grass! Here are some possibilities that I have heard about, that might spoil your day. No doubt the forum members can add to this list. a.. Running into a hidden tree stump b.. Running into rocks. Depending on the size of the rocks, this can result in damage to the fuselage, damage to the wings, or maybe a total write off of the glider. I recall a story where a pilot reported that he had run into a rock. An eye-witness to the event - from above, in another glider - verified the story: "Yep, he ran into a rock - it is called the Earth!" c.. Running into (relatively), shallow drains, that will nevertheless, rip your undercarriage out. d.. Running into electric fences. e.. Running into a patch of thistles. f.. Running into a star picket, that the farmer has placed in his paddock to mark an area for future weed eradication. g.. Running into a (somewhat pockmarked), rabbit warren: In Nth America - a Badger hole. Gary - Original Message - From: gstev...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings As I remember, it went more like this ..."NEVER FLY THROUGH THE SAME BAD AIR TWICE!" which gives the advice a whole new depth of meaning, seeing that this was one of the few pieces of information in the book - and the book is full of useful information - to be so notated, and is the ONLY axiom to appear TWICE! Here are two more from the same book: SPEED UP IN SINK - SLOW DOWN IN LIFT! ;and (in an outlanding) STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER LANDING! Members of this forum can no doubt tell many a story re the last axiom. Here is one that partly fits - but with a twist! Flight No 224, in my log-book, 01/03/1978, ES 60b GTJ. X/C training was being conducted on the day in the GCV's two-seater aircraft fleet. I decided to tag along in the Super Arrow. A task was set into the hills to the SW of Benalla, but unbeknown to me the task for the two-seaters was changed, as the weather was not as predicted. So off I set.The first leg was to Strathbogie, and then on to Euroa. As can be imagined, the first leg did not go well for me, and it was soon necessary to pick a paddock around Boho South. The options were a bit limited, as the countryside was fairly steep. Therefore in accordance with best practice, I choose to land uphill into my selected paddock. The landing went quite well, up to and including touchdown, and I can say with certainty that I did stop quickly - possible no more than 10 or 20 m - which fitted the 3rd maxim above, quite well. However I was totally unprepared for what happened next. No sooner had the glider stopped, than it began to accelerate - backwards down the slope! For pilots who may be unfamiliar with the type, let me say that these aircraft are fitted with a spring steel tailskid rather than a wheel. This was the thing that saved me, as the tailskid dug in, and I then quickly came to a stop, with no damage done. One further thing. Ed McKeough flew out to check the situation. How was it possible for him to land a Pawnee, if the paddock was so steep? Well the truth of the matter was that he landed on the airstrip - which I had totally missed seeing -in an adjacent paddock! I could have got an easy aerotow out of there, but instead had to cope with a bunch of noisy fellow glider pilots, and provide the mandatory slab of retrieve beer! Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals At 06:57 PM 16/03/2013, you wrote: On 15/03/2013, at 5:12 PM, Adam Woolley wrote: Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation i
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bad air/Outlandings
As I remember, it went more like this ..."NEVER FLY THROUGH THE SAME BAD AIR TWICE!" which gives the advice a whole new depth of meaning, seeing that this was one of the few pieces of information in the book - and the book is full of useful information - to be so notated, and is the ONLY axiom to appear TWICE! Here are two more from the same book: SPEED UP IN SINK - SLOW DOWN IN LIFT! ;and (in an outlanding) STOP AS SOON AS POSSIBLE AFTER LANDING! Members of this forum can no doubt tell many a story re the last axiom. Here is one that partly fits - but with a twist! Flight No 224, in my log-book, 01/03/1978, ES 60b GTJ. X/C training was being conducted on the day in the GCV's two-seater aircraft fleet. I decided to tag along in the Super Arrow. A task was set into the hills to the SW of Benalla, but unbeknown to me the task for the two-seaters was changed, as the weather was not as predicted. So off I set.The first leg was to Strathbogie, and then on to Euroa. As can be imagined, the first leg did not go well for me, and it was soon necessary to pick a paddock around Boho South. The options were a bit limited, as the countryside was fairly steep. Therefore in accordance with best practice, I choose to land uphill into my selected paddock. The landing went quite well, up to and including touchdown, and I can say with certainty that I did stop quickly - possible no more than 10 or 20 m - which fitted the 3rd maxim above, quite well. However I was totally unprepared for what happened next. No sooner had the glider stopped, than it began to accelerate - backwards down the slope! For pilots who may be unfamiliar with the type, let me say that these aircraft are fitted with a spring steel tailskid rather than a wheel. This was the thing that saved me, as the tailskid dug in, and I then quickly came to a stop, with no damage done. One further thing. Ed McKeough flew out to check the situation. How was it possible for him to land a Pawnee, if the paddock was so steep? Well the truth of the matter was that he landed on the airstrip - which I had totally missed seeing -in an adjacent paddock! I could have got an easy aerotow out of there, but instead had to cope with a bunch of noisy fellow glider pilots, and provide the mandatory slab of retrieve beer! Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2013 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Intermediate/short term goals At 06:57 PM 16/03/2013, you wrote: On 15/03/2013, at 5:12 PM, Adam Woolley wrote: Have you got any rough 'rules of thumb' that you use in order to decide if the short term deviation is worth it or not? Better air within 30 degrees either side of track is worth deviating for. It is more complicated than that. Keep in mind the extra distance you would fly to get to the next turnpoint. if you end up abeam the turnpoint by flying a track 30 off the direct one you will fly 50% further Also plot the achieved cross country speed vs the average climb rate. It is not a linear function. It may be worth greater deviations from track on weak thermal days than strong ones. You can get these numbers (and a lot of other interesting information) using a ruler, from the polar plotted on a piece of graph paper and a few simple geometric constructions. Your highly trained and experienced GFA instructor should have explained this to you before you try to go cross country. (Pig squadron on the grid, ready for first launch). Yes, staying out of sink is very important. Most of us do it poorly. It is extremely important when trying to center weak and broken thermals which is why I like a vario with a sink sound as it provides full information on the bad air as well as the good air while doing this. Byars and Holbrook said this in their book "Soaring cross country " 40 years ago - "never fly through the same bad air twice". Mike ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.
Hi Adam, Glad you are only "hearing things", as opposed to seeing things i.e. hallucinating! Perhaps this V3 will be a worthy successor to the legendary Nambus 4 which was reputed to have a glide ratio "flatter than the curvature of the earth"! ??? Gary - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 8:30 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3. I'm starting to hear things too, something about adopting the pre-preg lay up manufacturing process. WPP On 12/03/2013, at 6:49, Mike Borgelt wrote: So what about the V3? All I see is "sent from my iPhone" Mike At 11:00 PM 11/03/2013, you wrote: Sent from my iPhone ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5665 - Release Date: 03/11/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Hi Mike,
Thank God - He used it you know, for communicating with Moses - that you did
not use SLATE as your medium!
Thanks for the translation.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Mike Timbrell
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Friday, March 08, 2013 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
G’day Gary,
I knew I should never have used that heavy paper in those hypothetical exams!
BTW, the text is Italian. “There is half a sea between saying & doing.”
mike
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 11:15 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Hi Tim,
Roaming hands are common worldwide, but the Romans are now gone, and except
for specialists - have you read the ultimate text ("The Specialist"), on dunny
building by the way? - {another example of lost knowledge}, so is the Latin
language! Thank God for google fish, but I am a bit confused as to what ear I
should put it in.
Your post reminds me of one (possibly hypothetical), way of grading exam
papers. Find a building higher than one storey, go to the head of the stairs,
and then toss all exam papers into the ether. They will all come to earth, and
it is then a simple matter to grade the papers. The ones that go furthest get
the highest mark, and the ones that land closest to the stairs get the lowest
mark. Warning: Please be aware that sometimes bullshit baffles brains! In
essence, it is a bit like scoring a glider competition really!
Thanks for your recent advice on using flarm for logging gold and silver
badge flights. I had a nice flight - was it only yesterday?
The wheel turns. Hope your own Wednesday flight was good value?
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Tim Shirley
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly
theroretical) worked like this.
1. At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of
his or her glider. These valuations are made public.
2. The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to
some fairly simple formula – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap
of course.
3. The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.
That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think. Anyone interested
in a cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J
And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised,
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature
below. Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.
Do it yourselves next time.
Cheers
Tim
Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Peter,
That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and
fairly), done?
Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to
start early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite
- at a National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking
should be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}
Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.
The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's
performance back to thei
Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Hi Tim,
Roaming hands are common worldwide, but the Romans are now gone, and except for
specialists - have you read the ultimate text ("The Specialist"), on dunny
building by the way? - {another example of lost knowledge}, so is the Latin
language! Thank God for google fish, but I am a bit confused as to what ear I
should put it in.
Your post reminds me of one (possibly hypothetical), way of grading exam
papers. Find a building higher than one storey, go to the head of the stairs,
and then toss all exam papers into the ether. They will all come to earth, and
it is then a simple matter to grade the papers. The ones that go furthest get
the highest mark, and the ones that land closest to the stairs get the lowest
mark. Warning: Please be aware that sometimes bullshit baffles brains! In
essence, it is a bit like scoring a glider competition really!
Thanks for your recent advice on using flarm for logging gold and silver badge
flights. I had a nice flight - was it only yesterday?
The wheel turns. Hope your own Wednesday flight was good value?
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Tim Shirley
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
The best handicap system I have heard of for gliding (admittedly
theroretical) worked like this.
1. At the start of the competition each pilot nominates the value of
his or her glider. These valuations are made public.
2. The handicaps are then based on the pilots valuation according to
some fairly simple formula – the lower value, the more favourable the handicap
of course.
3. The he pilot signs a guarantee that they will sell the glider to
anyone who comes up with the valuation figure, at the end of the competition.
That should sort out the problem quite nicely I think. Anyone interested in
a cheap JS1 that just won the Nationals? J
And, for those who have posted on this topic without ever having organised,
scored or handicapped a gliding competition, or in fact have done anything here
except bitch about those that do, there are a few words just under my signature
below. Google translator will soon tell you why they are relevant to you.
Do it yourselves next time.
Cheers
Tim
Tra dire e fare c’è mezzo il mare
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 7 March 2013 20:41
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Peter,
That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and
fairly), done?
Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}
Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.
The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it
might now prove profitable to revisit the principles of the ME concept, and
check their workability in the current hi-tek environment.
Ann Woolf - given the tremendous (mind boggling?) - work that you have done
on compiling the electronic AG data base - could I please call upon you to put
the article(s?), that appeared in Australian Gliding, on this web site, for
the perusal and comment of a latter generation of glider pilots?
Gary
- Original Message -
From: nimb...@internode.on.net
To: aus-soaring
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 201
Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Peter,
That is an interesting suggestion! I wonder if it could be practically (and
fairly), done?
Re "poor" task setting, I tend to think that your objection 'having to start
early/finish late" is actually as a general principle, just the opposite - at a
National level and probably a State level too, this is what good tasking should
be all about! In general, the task setting at most competitions, on most
reasonably soarable days, is far too conservative. {Everybody, please carefully
note those two provisos - "most" & "reasonably"!}
Having said that, I tend to agree with your last paragraph, which then gets
back to the question I raised in my first paragraph above.
The points noted by Matthew Scutter, in his email below, are all reasonable
too. Emilis Prelgauskas in a recent posting on this site, talked (amongst other
things), about some of the problems facing the gliding movement in this
country, including a gradual loss of knowledge held collectively by the
membership, and knowledge (mostly), lost to the current Board and those
administrating the GFA system. Once upon a time - I think it was just around
the time of the introduction of computers into gliding scoring - a guy called
Murray Evans (Murray-Evans?), came up with a system that related everybody's
performance back to their glider polar, and the results for the day were then
"corrected". The system was tried once, and promptly abandoned, as being
unworkable - which was fair enough at the time. The first and possibly major
problem then, was obtaining realistic polars, for the gliders competing. Number
crunching (laughable today), was also a problem, as I recall. In my view, it
might now prove profitable to revisit the principles of the ME concept, and
check their workability in the current hi-tek environment.
Ann Woolf - given the tremendous (mind boggling?) - work that you have done on
compiling the electronic AG data base - could I please call upon you to put the
article(s?), that appeared in Australian Gliding, on this web site, for the
perusal and comment of a latter generation of glider pilots?
Gary
- Original Message -
From: nimb...@internode.on.net
To: aus-soaring
Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2013 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
How about letting the previous generation 20m gliders fly in 15m class where
the handicaps are much closer as compared to current generation open class.
The other factor that gives the higher performance gliders an advantage over
the previous generation gliders when there is a large handicap spread is poor
task setting.
This occurs when racing tasks are set that force the lower performance
gliders to fly in weaker conditions by having to start early or finish later.
Where there is a significant spread in handicaps then racing tasks should not
be set.
Regards
Peter
Sent from my HTC smartphone
- Reply message -
From: "Matthew Scutter"
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Date: Thu, Mar 7, 2013 12:29
Ron,
Because the handicaps have practical limitations as gliders have
different performance characteristics in different weather, which
handicaps can't take into account.
The handicaps are probably fair for a Cirrus and an ASG29 on a 3kt
day, but they certainly aren't on a 12kt day.
This seems to be the general consensus - in normal weather, the
handicaps are close to the technical optimum, but in strong weather
the higher performance gliders have an advantage.
Technical ways to 'solve' this have been postulated for years,
different handicaps for different weather etc, all of which sounds to
me like too much work.
How we solve it now is grouping the gliders in relatively similar
performance classes.
If higher performance gliders have an advantage in stronger weather,
it makes sense they should not be able to come 'down' a class and fly
with lower performance gliders.
Whether it should work the other way depends on whether you believe
that lower performance gliders have an edge in weaker weather.
Personally I think the lower performance gliders do have an edge in
survival weather, but that is almost entirely negated because we get
less weak weather than strong, and we don't set tasks in survival
weather (how often is a day cancelled for being too strong? ;) )
I think the cause of this discussion is that while STD class is mostly
populated with top-of-the-line STD class ships, 15M class is largely
previous generation gliders - so many STD class pilots (particularly
those in previous generation STD class gliders, myself included), feel
we're flying closer to our 'effective' performance class in 15M.
tldr; The system is a 'good enough' compromise.
-matthew
On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Ron wrote:
> I think you missed the point . If the handicaps are so good what does it
> matter whether the span i
Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring
Ron, It is because they have flaps, of course! However if you invert the question, Standard Class gliders may fly in 15 m (Racing) Class. Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2013 1:23 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Boring Dear Adam, i agree with you!! And i note that there was not one reply to your far more interesting posted question " if the handicaps are so good why aren't fifteen metre flapped gliders allowed in Standard class?" The priorities are not in the right order. RS On 5 March 2013 20:16, Adam Woolley wrote: I went soaring today (well a circuit), it was awesome! WPP ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5651 - Release Date: 03/05/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, (offlist reply)
Ian, I've got it! A very good reminder. Don't do this unless it is a means of last resort. If it is the latter, the question is "how did you get into the situation in the first place?" Thanks. Gary - Original Message - From: Ian Mc Phee To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 9:34 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, (offlist reply) I really think taxiing is not on and Disc brakes 90% time can work but now and then they fail. I once watched an ASH taxiing hit Brad Edwards Pawnee - no damage to glider but serious ($10k or was it $20K) Pawnee damage. ASH disc was not working correctly. That pilot had been gliding over 40 years. . A friend of mine (he is level 3) taxied a glider in near hangar and I spoke to him about not a good idea. The next 2 seater was landing at hangar also and the visiting pilot from Sydney did something similar except overshot and finished up within 3m head on to John Michelle's Maule. I said to my friend Vic you are incharge best talk to him which he did and the pilot said "I saw you taxi so I thought I was allowed to do it here" .Basically my friend set a bad example. The best Taxi I have ever seen was Dafydd Llewellyn with his wife Jennifer and must be 25 years ago. He made 2 turns and stopped within 2 m of hangar door. Dafydd really did apologized but it was a skill he had from his youth at Bathurst (Sydney Tech Gliding Club) Late 70s I went to use wheel brake in L13 and bike wheel cable broke. I have not taxied since where I must rely on a wheel brake. If you must taxi then do it so NOTHING is in front of you. Taxi and relying on wheel brake is just not worth ite. When I have a young person jam on wheel brake I make them get out and touch the disc - they burn their fingers so bad that they never ever taxi and rely on a wheel brake again. AND I am sick and tired of fixing wheel brakes. Then there are the Pawnee pilots who push their luck too much with a taxi and use of wheel brakes. When I learnt to fly at a tailwheel flying school the owner got 3 of us students lift the tail of Citabria above our shoulder and the tail was now so light -always remember. He then proceeded with a lecture on how not overuse Citabria and Pawnee wheel brakes . That is my 2c worth Ian McPhee On 1 March 2013 07:02, Catherine Conway wrote: It's very common in commercial ops that I have visited in the USA but I refuse to do it Cath Sent from my iPhone On 01/03/2013, at 1:02 AM, "Texler, Michael" wrote: > Why the straw poll? > > I had the audacity to question a fellow level 2 as to why he taxied a heavy club two seater (a DG1000 with 2 POB) to within 5-10m of the back of the launching grid (there were other gliders on the grid). > > I was told that since I didn't have anywhere near the vast years of experience he had, 1,00's of kms of X-country he did and I wasn't as regular flier as he was that I had no right to criticise him. > > I was the level 2 running the day. > > Just trying to see how prevalent taxying up behind the grid is. > > Great to hear from you! > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5650 - Release Date: 03/05/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Coaching issues
Hi All, Here is an interesting post, that has not got any response - to date. It seems to me that there might be issues well worth considering further, by members of this forum. I would hope that Terry Cubly, as Chairman of the Development Committee, might respond appropriately. Emilis's last three paragraphs has me intrigued. Emilis, I would like you to amplify just exactly what you mean in each of these paragraphs. Gary - Original Message - From: "emilis prelgauskas" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Monday, March 04, 2013 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Coaching issues It is a good thing that over the years the sport has moved toward better resourced and structured post-solo coaching. The regrettable aspects are that - - on the one hand the sport's traditions of making do and relying on individuals to stump up resources for the benefit of the sport as a whole has continued - meanwhile on the other hand the society wide attitudes, which might be termed 'victim mentality', have pervaded participant attitudes (no care/no responsibility). I am one of the people who has become concerned about providing resources (myself, skills and knowledge, sailplane and other bits and bobs) and then find the coachee turns up on the flightline after I have done the fettle, DI, tow-out, flight prep; ready to 'do the flight'. My view is that all those precursors are where the real learning occurs. Since we know that pilot comprehension and decisionmaking goes to mush once we are in the air. As the sport gets smaller, it relies ever more on the old hands where the corporate knowledge resides. Making that section of the sport wonder about the value of what they offer, the ineffectual nature of hand-on of that knowledge, let alone being left hung out to dry in terms of carrying the costs as well; is the rapid path toward those resources not being available. While there seems to be good things happening at the introduction to cross country flight/early contest scene, and at the elite training pinnacle; these concerns affect the transition of aspirants between those 2 states at either end of the performance spectrum. (The individuals concerned know who I am talking about without me violating the ethics of a public discussion list; don't you) ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5646 - Release Date: 03/03/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Car damage
Nicely put Bernard! I see that you now fully understand the implications of your initial email to which I strongly objected! All this aside, I for one, freely acknowledge the huge effort that you have made to firstly improving the status of XC gliding in SA, and to a lesser extent, within the larger OZ scene, through your personal effort, and secondly to a possibly larger (worldwide extent), through the publication of the various editions of your book. I have a copy of your 2nd edition, which perhaps I should delve deeper into if I want to improve my performance? It would seem that you now have a positive resolution of the cost issues. That is good. Please keep up the good coaching work. Gary - Original Message - From: Future Aviation To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2013 4:59 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Car damage Hello Kevin and all other contributors! Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter. Shortly after Kevin's posting I received a call from a concerned friend. He basically underlined Kevin's comments and pointed out that the naming of an individual should have been avoided. This doesn't seem to be an issue where I come from (as long as the facts are correct) but I was told that that it is a no-no in Australia. Therefore I have now come to accept that I was wrong in doing it Initially I received a number of e-mails in support of my approach while stressing that we should all object to people doing the wrong thing by others and expect to get away with it. However, lately some well meaning off line feedback is more concerned about the impact on the individual involved. It made me realise that my initial posting was interpreted by the majority of readers as an attack on the individual when in reality it was primarily an attempt to share a costly experience with other volunteers and prevent them from falling into the same trap. Talking of costs, the good news is that I have received feedback from GFA officials that the cost of repairs should be covered by the BBL insurance scheme. That will take care of the financial issue and I want to thank those members who have pointed that out to me. Apparently I need to submit a claim to the lady in question which she has to pass on to the GFA treasurer. I assume that I will receive the necessary cooperation and if this is the case I want to assure all members of this forum that I will write to the lady and express my deep regret for naming her. If my posting has offended a fellow club member (or anyone else) I want to apologise to them right here and now. Kind regards to all Bernard -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5650 - Release Date: 03/05/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Coaching issues
Bernard, I am horrified by this story. I have no reason to doubt the facts as you have presented them! Having said that, I am keeping in mind, the following .. your story, her story, and the right story! I consider that this is NOT a topic suitable UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES that needs to be discussed on this forum. Shame on you! Gary - Original Message - From: Future Aviation To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2013 3:49 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Coaching issues Dear all! Please allow me to pass on some experience gained during the recent WIG week (Women in Gliding) at Gawler. The roof of my car was accidently dented by Mrs. Jo Wooler - a fellow glider pilot from the Caboolture Gliding Club in QLD. She lifted the right wing of the ASH 25 and by doing so she hit my car which she parked under the left wing just a few minutes earlier. Fortunately the wing was not damaged. This mishap occurred after she received free of charge coaching for several hours in my ASH 25. She was extremely apologetic for her lapse of concentration and immediately offered compensation. Over the following days she repeatedly assured me to cover the cost of dent removal in full. However, after getting back to Queensland Mrs. Wooler had a remarkable change of attitude. At first she suggested to pay 50% of the repair costs and a week later she e-mailed to say that it was: "...indeed shameful behaviour for me to hold her responsible at all." On request I can make copies of our correspondence available. It makes for very interesting reading and demonstrates how easily humans are inclined to compromise their moral and ethical standards when the impact on their hip pocket becomes a little clearer. Be warned - coaching and trying to help others is not always a rewarding experience! When the total cost of less than a week of coaching is approaching $1500 it can put you off proper!!! Bernard Eckey -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5643 - Release Date: 03/02/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist
Hi, May I ask why you are conducting this poll? Regardless of the answer to this question, I fully agree with the answer given by Tom Claffey. However, all things being equal, the primary question remains, why land behind a row of parked gliders, when you have MULTIPLE other options available on most airfields? It seems to me that your question is a loaded one. I look forward to your response. Gary - Original Message - From: "Texler, Michael" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 12:35 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Simple question straw poll, you can reply offlist Simple Question; "When flying a glider, is it OK to taxy off the runway after landing to position the glider close to the rear of the launch grid?" YES or NO or "It depends.." (give a reason) Offlist replies preferred From latest MOSP Taxying after landing Sailplanes should make a straight approach and landing run parallel to the runway and must not taxy clear of the runway unless operationally required and only if no other aircraft can land alongside in the direction of taxi. Powered sailplanes may taxi under power providing it is safe to do so. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5636 - Release Date: 02/27/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] glider register
Ron, There is a bit more to it than that! The files also can take some time to load so be patient. Once you have got to the CASA site select search "Civil aircraft register" scroll down and select "Search the Aircraft register". This is under a sub-heading "Aircraft register data". Once the "Search the Aircraft register" opens - see note above - under the sub-heading "Extended search" go to "Aircraft type" and click on the arrow in the box. This will open up 5 options, one of which is "glider". Select this option, and then click on "Search" at the bottom of the page. Whilst you are on the Aircraft Register search page also set how many results per page you want - up to 50 is available. You will note that on this page there are many other options given for searching. If you know the glider registration, the easiest thing to do is to enter the last 3 letters in the box under "quick search" at the top of the page. Good luck, and happy searching. Gary - Original Message - From: Christopher McDonnell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] glider register CASA register search and pick glider option. Lots of oldies I know of though who did not comply with 9/11 fallout panic and have fallen off the register. From: Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2013 3:50 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: [Aus-soaring] glider register can anyonwe tell me how to find the totl australian glider register? ron On 27 February 2013 20:55, tom claffey wrote: Aircon? - I want one! :) From: Mike Borgelt ; To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. ; Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 ~ Why not move to 24 volt systems? Sent: Thu, Feb 28, 2013 12:44:04 AM You usually move to higher voltage to transmit greater power at the same or lower current which reduces wiring weight. I suspect in light aircraft the power requirement for the electrics is driven by systems other than the avionics i.e electrically driven hydraulic pumps or simply electrically driven flaps, landing gear retract etc. There is consideration of going to 42 volts for cars for this reason. B50s work down to 10 volts, B300/B500/600/800 a little less. B400 and B700 down to 4 volts.(internal boost regulator cuts in). A 12 v nominal SLA battery is about to die at 11V terminal voltage when discharged at typical glider rates. If you are losing more than 0.2 volts or so between the battery and the instrument you need to fix the wiring, fuses switches etc. There doesn't seem to be any overwhelming reason to go to 24 volts in gliders. I'll bet most "24 or 28 volt" avionics has a switch mode regulator to get 14 volts before going to the rest of the gadget or simply to the 5 volts or so required by the logic circuits. If we go to electric flaps and aircon like the Duckhawk this may change. I think it has something like a 54 A-H battery. Mike At 08:13 AM 28/02/2013, you wrote: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_NextPart_000_0056_01CE1593.E2557430" Content-Language: en-us My contribution to the battery aspect of this thread is to question why we are so infatuated by 12 volts? [I once wrote Standards, and Standards often impede innovation] I also agree that the electrical systems must be designed and implemented taking into consideration volts, amps, temperature high and low, wiring, insulation, noxious gases, fusing, short circuit and thermal runaway, G load, weight and many other factors At Oshkosh 2006 the Blue Mountains Avionics presentation said for light aircraft the move to 24 volt systems was a no brainer, just so logical. Most instrumentation and radio’s require 10 volts and a 12 volt system decays to 10 volt reasonably fast. Microair’s need probably 10.5 before the transmitter goes garbled, Cambridge falls over at about 8 volts. Mike could perhaps comment on the minimums for Borgelt instruments. PDA’s and XCSoar have a USB 5 volt input so may work longer on a 12 volt system? Some avionics are designed for 35 volt DC maximum input [but XCOM and Microair apparently have 16 ~ 17 volt maximum input specification] But starting with 24 volts gets much more out of the battery before avionics fail. Even moving to say 16 volt to keep within radio specification could lead to increased useful battery life. Cranking amps for starter motors is at the high drain end of the drain spectrum but arguably is early in a batteries discharge cycle in the glider application.
Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL
Mike, Spot on! Has the Co actually produced a prototype? It seems highly doubtful. Lots of engines there - to go wrong. What happens if you loose 1, 2 , 3, all of them at the same time? How much? I like the concept of flying it from the back yard to the local club for a game of golf. Criminals might be able to make good use of the machine too! Cheers Gary - Original Message - From: "Mike Borgelt" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 100% electric VTOL Sorry Bernard, It is a Sparrowhawk from Windward performance, not an ASW or ASG. I like the e-volo copter design. This one looks like it owes something to that concept of multiple small rotors. Mike At 05:09 PM 27/02/2013, you wrote: Hello all! Have a look and see how the beautiful fuselage design of the ASW 27,ASW 28 and ASG 29 can be misused! http://www.jobyaviation.com/animation Kind regards Bernard ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2641/5635 - Release Date: 02/26/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4
Nice one Arie. You do bring a bit of costing perspective into the argument here. The YouTube footage is interesting (horrific?), but I suspect basically irrelevant. I think that any glider pilot who knows anything about the problem, does not want to experience an inflight cockpit fire UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I know of one example, where the pilot was VERY happy to have survived the experience - without having to bail out. He reported that fire - as in burning - was NOT the problem. He reported that the amount of fumes and smoke generated in an incredibly short time from the ignition of the plastic wire covering due to shorting of the electrical system was in fact the primary problem. For this unfortunate pilot, there were really two problems: first he had to be able to breathe, and secondly he had to be able to see what you are doing - basically impossible in a cockpit filled with smoke! Re your statement "willing to replace a couple of batteries each year " Probably a slip of the pen: As Bernard has pointed out a high quality SLA gel cell type battery MAY last up to 9 or 10 years, but this is hardly likely to be the norm. Five - seven years seems to be much more realistic estimate. As far as I can tell, the life of the LiFePo4 batteries is not claimed to be any better than this latter figure. At this point in time, LiFePo4 batteries are MUCH more expensive. However I expect that in a few years time the price will have fallen, and many glider pilots will be using these "new fangled" devices,. I suspect that I will need to replace my current glider batteries in the near future. I do not have a max AUW of the non-loading bearing parts problem - one valid argument for lighter batteries - and my power consumption figures - high power consumption requirements are another valid argument for using LoFePo4 - are relatively modest, so I have no intention of using LifePo4 batteries for the replacement. What this whole discussion has crystallised for me is the requirement, regardless of the type of battery selected, is to always use a high quality battery manufactured by a reputable factory who stands behind their product. [I have in the past tried "cheap" batteries, and regretted it.] Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Arie van Spronssen To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:56 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 Hi, When people start talking of glider batteries I laugh at their logic. We have a toy that cost anywhere between 2 - 10k and upwards to keep in the air each year (not including getting to and from the airfield and actually getting it in the air) and they are not willing to replace a couple of batteries each year for well under a $100. These fancy batteries may be ok but in the vast majority of gliders the simple still works best and is cheap and safe. Yes I do play with these fancy batteries in my radio control toys but with great care and they are always stored in a lipo safe bag. You only have to watch this video to agree http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw8jb1KmAG8 yes I know the newer ones are better but these are only small and look at how they go up and even the newer ones can still have problems. regards, Arie On 27/02/2013 12:52 PM, Future Aviation wrote: Hello all It just occurred to me that I have omitted to thank John Parncutt for his research and his willingness to share the findings with us. Of course, in this context Mike Borgelt's professional advice must also be mentioned. Both contributions are extremely useful to many of my gliding friends including myself. Many thanks to both of you! Believe it or not, the last set of SLA batteries powering the engine circuit in my ASH 25 lasted for 10 years. At the time I opted for the most expensive SLA batteries I could get my hands on and now it appears that the old saying holds indeed true. You only get what you Kind regards to all. Bernard Eckey -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike Borgelt Sent: Wednesday, 27 February 2013 11:22 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] LiFePo4 As I said yesterday, do proper engineering on your battery installation. If you don't have real numbers for temperature limits, discharge curves at various rates, charging characteristics etc etc you aren't doing engineering, you're just guessing. A battery designed to start a racing motorbike and then be recharged by the alternator and floated at that voltage likely has quite different characteristics, design and longevity from one designed for charging and deep discharging over several hours then recharging. You can also just stop and get off the bike when the battery catches fire. Li batteries all need individual cell monitoring during ch
Re: [Aus-soaring] AIRBUS has abandoned its plans to uselithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes
Hi John, It is obvious that you have gone to some trouble and time to investigate the situation, and to make this post. Your post seems well reasoned. Do any other members of this forum have any constructive criticisms of John's post, or can add to the information that John has supplied? John, thank you for the information. Gary - Original Message - From: John Parncutt To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AIRBUS has abandoned its plans to uselithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes All battery systems pose a potential fire risk especially if short circuited, this is why it is essential to provide a suitable fuse as close to the battery terminal as possible. Due to their potential to provide high amounts of discharge current Lithium batteries will generate a great deal of heat if shorted and certainly become a major fire or even explosion risk. If a cell or the battery develops an internal short (before the terminals) then no amount protection in the way of external fuses or circuit breakers will be effective. All new battery technology seems to go through this problem, I can well remember major similar issues with Nickel Metal Hydride batteries a couple of decades ago. I believe in the long term Lithium technology especially some of the newer Lithium Phosphate variants will replace the >150 year old lead acid technology completely (much in the same way as LED lighting is rapidly replacing both incandescent and fluorescent lighting). If you consider the huge amount of lithium batteries in use in mobile devices ranging from portable tools through to laptops, phones tablet PC's and now electric cars, and the relatively rare event of fires caused by these devices then I think it puts the situation into better perspective. One of the major differences in battery usage in a commercial airliner as opposed to a glider (apart from the obvious size of the batteries!) is that the airliners systems are designed to charge the batteries in flight. We would generally charge our batteries in the hanger (unless you have solar panels on the fuselage), And as far as I understand the charging process is where a significant amount of the overheating problems have occurred. I think Airbus is being justifiably prudent given the recent incident with the Boeing 787. However I think with pressure from the aviation industry that battery manufacturers will rapidly further develop their manufacturing processes and fine tune the chemistry, and Lithium technology will win out. As far as our own pastime is concerned, I have been evaluating Lithium Phosphate Batteries manufactured by Shorai in Japan. These are marketed as a replacement 12Volt motorcycle battery. I have conducted discharge tests at fixed current rates (generally 2 Amps) using a commercially designed computer based battery testing system, whilst the manufactures stated A/H capacity is somewhat overstated, the ability of the battery to provide a constant voltage throughout the discharge period (>12V) is significantly better than that of its lead acid counterpart. Couple this with the reduced weight and expected longer life then this becomes an interesting option as a Glider battery. By the way throughout the testing I have at no stage found any evidence of abnormal heating of the battery. I have personally used the Shorai battery in flight several times, but given the concerns of the aviation industry in general have held off recommending that our club converts its fleet to this technology in the short term.I believe that it will only be a couple of years before this technology full acceptance in the aviation industry. John Parncutt From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Craig Vinall Sent: Monday, 25 February 2013 9:04 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] AIRBUS has abandoned its plans to use lithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes Thought this may be of interest. I know that these batteries are becoming popular in gliders; what do others think? Is there a potential fire risk? AIRBUS has abandoned its plans to use lithium-ion batteries for its new A350 airplanes. The European aerospace group said Thursday it would revert to conventional nickel-cadmium batteries for the A350 due to the uncertainty surrounding the technology following the grounding of Boeing's 787 Dreamliner. The A350 is a wide-body long-range jet rival to the 787 and is expected to make its first flight around the middle of the year. Airbus says it does not expect the battery switch to delay the A350's schedule. Lithium batteries are lighter and can store more ener
Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC triangles
Hi Adam & All, Sigh! When all else fails, I guess one needs to read, absorb, understand, and apply the rules! As many a glider pilot has found out to their cost, what a difference a metre or ten can make! Thank you all. Gary - Original Message - From: Adam Webb To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, February 22, 2013 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] OLC triangles Hi Gary and all, Have seen this a few times lately... My understanding is that OLC requires the flight track to be 'closed' ie you cross the path of your outgoing track when finishing. (for triangle scores, not standard olc) I could be wrong, but this seems fairly consistent with other flights I have seen. Cheers Adam Sent from phone On Feb 22, 2013 10:34 PM, wrote: Hi All, On several flights I have done a flight that seems (by inspection), to includes a nice (FAI), triangle, and indeed shows up on the SeeYou site as a substantial - say 200 - 400 km - FAI triangle, and yet the OLC site manages to find a max FAI triangle of about 6 km or so for this very same flight! Am I missing something here? Can anybody explain the mechanics of this to me? Is there a glitch on the OLC site? Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2238 / Virus Database: 2639/5622 - Release Date: 02/21/13 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] OLC triangles
Hi All, On several flights I have done a flight that seems (by inspection), to includes a nice (FAI), triangle, and indeed shows up on the SeeYou site as a substantial - say 200 - 400 km - FAI triangle, and yet the OLC site manages to find a max FAI triangle of about 6 km or so for this very same flight! Am I missing something here? Can anybody explain the mechanics of this to me? Is there a glitch on the OLC site? Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] harmonised turnpoint list
Hi Mike, I agree entirely. Re "girly men" tasks, having read this comment, I instantly sent your email to the recycle bin. However I have now reconsidered and I would like your opinion, given that (amazingly), competition tasking is one topic that does not seem to have been discussed on this forum. Let me stir the pot by first saying that Charles Day, a long time member of the GCV, and an excellent pilot, was (is?) of the opinion that, in the main, competition tasking is too conservative, and does not test the pilot at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day. He therefore mostly did not participate. However I can recall one occasion when he did compete in a Nationals - pre Benalla Worlds(??) - and (I think), in the end gained an overall second place. Over to you. Gary - Original Message - From: "Mike Borgelt" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2012 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] harmonised turnpoint list Does it matter? If you have one giant list you have to edit it anyway to get it down to the places you use at any given site. If doing a badge, record or contest flight as long as you go to the actual declared place (use the same list for the declaration and the nav database) and have at least one GPS fix in sector you are OK. It simply doesn't even matter if the turnpoint is displaced from the physical feature with GPS flight recording. We could save a lot of anxiety by simply using a half degree grid of lat and long over the soaring areas. Goes even more so for AAT where you don't even go to a specific place anyway. Don't get me started on the stupidity of the current rules for the "girly men" task though. Mike At 12:03 PM 10/11/2012, you wrote: Just to get those going who aren't gliding this weekend what are we or the GFA doing/have done about producing a harmonised turn point list for the whole of Australia? Eg Tocumwal uses Burrumbuttock and so does Temora and Benalla and Burrumbuttock turns out to be in three different places, albeit not by much. The UK has had a national harmonised list for years, why cant we?? Ron ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5385 - Release Date: 11/09/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: FW: Safety Cushions
An electric carving knife does the job. Gary - Original Message - From: Roger Harrop To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: FW: Safety Cushions Ian, We are about to experiment with some confor layer combinations in our ASK21 trainers. Can you suggest a quality brand and/or model of Foam cutter/shaper that we might add to the GCV's workshop for all to use, as hopefully the practice spreads across members. Roger Harrop 0400 839 307 On 11/07/2012, at 9:12 PM, Ian Mc Phee wrote: This article from BGA is very worth a read. People who saw the crash may remember after crash he just got out of glider and walked around and I love his statement. Kiwis must have confor in their gliders while the Poms highly recommend it and most club gliders have it. I personally believe it should be mandatory in Australian gliders and just maybe one person who is now in a wheel chair and was sitting on crap makers yellow foam cushions may be walking today. For those that know confor foam give the demo of slamming your fist into 3cm of confor on a brick wall to your friends. As many who know me know I will never sign out a form 2 unless it has confor foam cushion. (nor will I sign out a crap hard to read Altimeter or an undercart without decent green -down and red -up) Lets hope there are a few more AUS gliders using confor cushions this season ou from a wheelchair. Treat cost of confor foam as a one off insurance policy which may save you from a wheelchair for the rest of your life. Ian McPhee From: Terry, Ged (UK) Date: 11 July 2012 17:36 Subject: FW: Safety Cushions To: Ruth Patching , Robert Moore , "r.g.richter" , JR , "ga...@sharpbuilding.com.au" , Dave and Jenne Goldsmith -Original Message- From: off...@gliding.co.uk [mailto:off...@gliding.co.uk] Sent: 11 July 2012 08:25 Subject: Safety Cushions --! WARNING ! -- This message originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or from the internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on reporting suspicious email messages. To: BGA Full and Assistant Instructors You will be aware that BGA RP 38 recommends that all glider cockpits should be equipped with cushions containing energy absorbing materials. These cushions are widely used in club gliders but less so in privately owned gliders. The BGA has produced a booklet explaining how safety cushions work and how they can reduce injury not just in a crash but in the heavy landings that occur from time to time on instructing flights. We are hoping the booklet will encourage all non-users to install energy absorbent cushions. You can download a copy of the booklet from http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/documents/safetyfoam.pdf and your CFI has hard copy versions of the booklet for distribution. An EMail highlighting the issue and providing a link to the booklet will be sent to all private owners in the next few days. Please help us by encouraging all pilots to fly with a safety cushion. Best regards Peter Claiden Chairman, BGA Safety Committee This email and any attachments are confidential to the intended recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient please delete it from your system and notify the sender. You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or distribute its contents to any other person. -- Dave and Jenne Goldsmith daveandje...@gmail.com 61 (0)3 54 28 3358 PO Box 577, Gisborne, Vic, 3437 Australia www.vintageglidersaustralia.org.au www.australianglidingmuseum.org.au www.gliding-in-melbourne.org www.bendigogliding.org.au ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Databa
Re: [Aus-soaring] Wing covers
You will find that Maddog Composites in Qld are the Australian Agents. Gary - Original Message - From: Christopher McDonnell To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:42 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wing covers Hi, Has anybody had any dealings with a Chinese company named Kerry Covers? Chris -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5295 - Release Date: 09/27/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing glider trailers: another twist
Pam, That is hard to credit. Did the person you were dealing with give you an exact reference to the appropriate legislation (Act) to support this contention? As a matter of principle, have you tried contacting the Commonwealth Government Ombudsman on this?[I assume such a position exists] In my (limited) experience with Ombudsmen, if you have a case, they cut through all the BS, and get you a positive result quickly. If what you say proves to be true, it is likely that you will also (again), have to pay import duty and GST on the trailer as well! Please keep us informed of developments. Gary - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 11:07 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Importing glider trailers: another twist You have to get an import permit for an Australian-registered trailer returning to Australia!!! Our trailer has been to Europe and is on its way back with the new glider in it. It was imported 2 years ago and has an import permit from that time and current registration, but no dice, have to re-apply. Pam -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2441/5281 - Release Date: 09/20/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Something to make you laugh - this is true!
Slightly off subject. There are two towns in Pennsylvania, USA, about 4 km apart. Travelling roughly N to SW, to get from one town to the other, we have this situation: You go through Intercourse to get to Paradise. - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: 'tom claffey' ; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 8:19 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Something to make you laugh,Ozzie IFR waypoint fun, this is true! Crossing the channel into France, call BREST control. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012 7:38 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Something to make you laugh, Ozzie IFR waypoint fun, this is true! Into Brisbane over Moreton Bay: leaky, boats, sinks -- From: "opsw...@bigpond.net.au" To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: Ron Sanders Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Something to make you laugh, Ozzie IFR waypoint fun, this is true! Inbound to Diego Garcia used to have mumma whatta bumma Or Oceanic waypoints near BNE and SYD Shark Marlin etc Peter Heath Ron Sanders wrote: = I have a very ominous example of way point names! On the way down the Red sea into Jedda you will find one way point which is DEDLI and the very very next one is OSAMA. I have to say i was shocked to read that. Ron S On 13 September 2012 07:47, Texler, Michael wrote: > This is funny, Airservices Australia have a sense of humour: > > http://makingtimeforflying.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/youll-come-flying-mat > ilda-with-me.html > > Look in the Airservices Austrlia designated airspace book: > http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dah/dah.pdf > > Section 21 - IFR Waypoints > > >LatLong > WONSA -22110 > JOLLY -23110 > SWAGY -24110 > CAMBS -25110 > BUIYA -26110 > BYLLA -27110 > BONGS -28110 > UNDER -29110 > ACOOL -30110 > EBARR -31110 > TREES -32110 > > > The Yanks like a laugh too. > There is this classic one from RNAV (GPS) Approach for RWY 16 Portsmouth > Airport in New Hampshire USA (KPSM). Imagine entering this in the > navigation computer! > See: > https://skyvector.com/files/tpp/1209/pdf/00678R16.PDF > > If you start at the initial approach fix (IAF) in the northwest: ITAWT > To the intermediate fix (IF): ITAWA > To the final approach fix (FAF): PUDYE > Missed approach point: TTATT > Missed approach holding point: IDEED > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2437/5270 - Release Date: 09/15/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Bugga the Olympics - Bunyan goes Gold
Nice one Stuart. Love the Olympic association that you made here. My
congratulations to the winners.{I hope they notched the barographs?}
As to the tuggie: Give the poor ol' bugga a beer and a feed, and send him to
bed, so that he can do it all again tomorrow and tomorrow ... and
tomorrow?
Methinks that said tuggie may own a glider? Suggestion..reverse your
position on the tow rope?
Geoff V has no doubt informed you that we had some earlier (small), hopes
for wave here in Ararat today . but for various reasons it did not
happen. No great surprise there: The tea leaves were increasingly
pessimistic.
Cheers,
Gary
- Original Message -
From: "Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON "
To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'"
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 9:07 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Bugga the Olympics - Bunyan goes Gold
While the Australian Olympic team only has one Gold (at the time of
writing)
the Canberra Gliding Club is
celebrating the success of two of its members who flew their first Gold
Heights today - others also flew
Gold Height gains just not their first.
As for the Tuggie - he's tired ;)
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers
Hi Christopher, You are not taking into account the mass on the towball. Are you sure that your understanding of the question that the QLD people are asking is correct? It seems to be a backwards looking question. The three things normally required in a perfect world, (and maybe less in reality), are Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM), Gross Trailer Mass (GTM), and Tare Mass. Let's consider ATM first. As the trailer still is/has been previously registered in SA, there will be a figure recorded for this (and maybe the other 2 variables too), on the SA trailer database. If you give them the SA registration, the QLD people should be able to access this database with a push of a computer key or two: Data sharing between the States, and all that! You also may have this figure officially recorded somewhere in your old files? Of course OLD does not have to accept the SA data, but I think to refuse to do so would be unusual. If the trailer has been weighed empty (without fittings and fixtures, or anything else), you can establish the Tare Mass. This is the weighbridge reading PLUS whatever mass is on the towball at this time. So lets look at a theoretical example. Let say the weighbridge gives us 300 kg empty trailer mass. The mass on the towball is say measured at 30 kg. Add the two values. This gives us a Tare Mass of 330 kg. The ATM is 800 kg (say) from the old SA records. When the trailer is fully loaded the mass on the towball has changed from 30 kg to lets say a measured 80 kg. Subtract 80 kg from 800 kg and we have 720 kg. This is the GTM. GTM minus Tare Mass = permissible max load ie 720 - 330 = 390 kg. So this is how you calculate the figure that you say is required by the QLD authorities. Lets look at some of this in another way Lets say that you do not have an ATM value. I can see this being the real problem for any home built trailer today. For a new commercial trailer it would be calculated by a Structural Engineer. However do not despair, there is always the empirical method! Take the very same trailer, but assume we do not have that essential ATM value. Load it - lets say this time with 420 kg of glider, fittings, and other goods. We measure the mass on the towball and note that it is 85 kg. We then run the combination around the countryside for a few years, and in this (imaginary) perfect world the trailer holds together just fine. So, Tare Mass (330 kg) plus the load (420 kg) = GTM (750 kg) GTM (750 kg) plus mass on the towball (85 kg) = 835 kg. This is the derived ATM applicable for this set of circumstances. Hope this helps your understanding of what is going on, and more particularly leads to getting your trailer registered in QLD. Gary - Original Message - From: Christopher McDonnell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 7:48 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers On a tangent I am having problems reregistering my ex SA trailer here in 4X land because they have problems realising that the ATM can only be the tare weight of the trailer plus the weight of the aircraft and it’s accoutrements as that is all it is allowed to carry. They keep wanting to know “but how much can it carry?” My outfit comes in at under 750kg which has some advantages practically and financially. But then , I was warned about things like this when I migrated. The weather makes up for it all but! From: Ron Sanders Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:52 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers Thank you Gary all noted. ron On 25 July 2012 16:48, wrote: Ron, Why do you want the empty weight? If you are importing a trailer into Australia it is not required information. Some of what follows was covered in my more general article on Importing a Glider, which appeared in Gliding Australia Issue 3 November - December 2011. What you must do, is fill in the form "Application to Import a Small Road Trailer". This is available as a download from the Australian Government Department of Infrastructure and Transport www.infrastructure.gov.au . Parts 3 & 4 of that document request that you supply answers to many questions about the trailer. In Part 4, "Trailer Mass" rather than "Trailer Weight" is used. There are 6 questions relating to Trailer Mass. To be considered a "small trailer" the trailer must have an Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM), of 4.5 tonnes or less, so you need the ATM, you need the Tare Mass, and you need the Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) . in Kg. All these terms are defined in other (referenced), documents. I suggest that you get a high definition, close up image of the trailer identification plate. Some of the info will be there. The plate will also have the VIN No. In the case of an Alfred Spindelberger (Cobra) trailer you can contact the factory quite easily at th
Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers
Ron, In the supporting documentation, also include a copy of the purchase document - invoice, receipt, or bill of sale for the trailer. Remember that this particular document will also be used by another Department to calculate the Sales Tax and GST that you must pay. Have a look at that article I wrote for further info here. It is very important that you understand all the calculations, if you want to know what your total cost is/will be. [BTW the supporting documentation requirements for the Import Permit are all clearly set out on the Dof I&T's "Small Road Trailer Scheme" page.] Just for interest, here are the figures Spindelberger supplied for my D2 trailer (single axle, fibreglass top): ATM:900 kg GTM: 825 kg Tare Mass: 462 kg Load on the ball: 75 kg You might note that here that GTM = ATM - load on the ball The supplied Tare figure was the interesting one, as the factory very specifically noted "without fittings and fixtures". Without this proviso you might be in some doubt when you have a look at the Australian definition of Tare Mass and how the definition might be applied to a glider trailer. The factory note makes things crystal clear. I suspect that for this figure, lighter is better, but this is just a guess. Maybe another subscriber can shed some light on the implications (if any) of this figure, other than the obvious one that you will use more fuel towing a heavier trailer, all other things being equal. Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers Thank you Gary all noted. ron On 25 July 2012 16:48, wrote: Ron, Why do you want the empty weight? If you are importing a trailer into Australia it is not required information. Some of what follows was covered in my more general article on Importing a Glider, which appeared in Gliding Australia Issue 3 November - December 2011. What you must do, is fill in the form "Application to Import a Small Road Trailer". This is available as a download from the Australian Government Department of Infrastructure and Transport www.infrastructure.gov.au . Parts 3 & 4 of that document request that you supply answers to many questions about the trailer. In Part 4, "Trailer Mass" rather than "Trailer Weight" is used. There are 6 questions relating to Trailer Mass. To be considered a "small trailer" the trailer must have an Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM), of 4.5 tonnes or less, so you need the ATM, you need the Tare Mass, and you need the Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) . in Kg. All these terms are defined in other (referenced), documents. I suggest that you get a high definition, close up image of the trailer identification plate. Some of the info will be there. The plate will also have the VIN No. In the case of an Alfred Spindelberger (Cobra) trailer you can contact the factory quite easily at this address - co...@cobratrailer.com. Supply at least the VIN No. If you have the ID plate image, attach that too. Also include the name of the first owner of the trailer if you know it. At least some of the Spindelberger people are fluent in English. The Company will quickly get an email letter back to you with ALL the info. required to make the application for the import permit relating to that trailer - if you ask the right questions. I don't know if they keep a record of the EMPTY weight (mass). I did not ask, as I did not need it. Include that letter, the ID plate image, a photocopy of your Drivers Licence, and the fee, with your application for the permit. I suggest that you also include the following sentence in your covering letter: "I declare that the trailer will be modified (if necessary), to comply with the ADR's that apply at the date the trailer is first supplied to the market, or first used in transport in Australia". Just one thing more. You use the word "trailers" in the header. If you are in fact importing more than one trailer, include them all on the one application. That way you only have to pay the same one fee, which I note has remained unchanged for some years at $50.00. Good luck. Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:17 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers Does anybody out there have clue as to what a standard class Cobra or Swan trailer weighs when empty?? Ron S -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -
Re: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers
Ron, Why do you want the empty weight? If you are importing a trailer into Australia it is not required information. Some of what follows was covered in my more general article on Importing a Glider, which appeared in Gliding Australia Issue 3 November - December 2011. What you must do, is fill in the form "Application to Import a Small Road Trailer". This is available as a download from the Australian Government Department of Infrastructure and Transport www.infrastructure.gov.au . Parts 3 & 4 of that document request that you supply answers to many questions about the trailer. In Part 4, "Trailer Mass" rather than "Trailer Weight" is used. There are 6 questions relating to Trailer Mass. To be considered a "small trailer" the trailer must have an Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM), of 4.5 tonnes or less, so you need the ATM, you need the Tare Mass, and you need the Gross Trailer Mass (GTM) . in Kg. All these terms are defined in other (referenced), documents. I suggest that you get a high definition, close up image of the trailer identification plate. Some of the info will be there. The plate will also have the VIN No. In the case of an Alfred Spindelberger (Cobra) trailer you can contact the factory quite easily at this address - co...@cobratrailer.com. Supply at least the VIN No. If you have the ID plate image, attach that too. Also include the name of the first owner of the trailer if you know it. At least some of the Spindelberger people are fluent in English. The Company will quickly get an email letter back to you with ALL the info. required to make the application for the import permit relating to that trailer - if you ask the right questions. I don't know if they keep a record of the EMPTY weight (mass). I did not ask, as I did not need it. Include that letter, the ID plate image, a photocopy of your Drivers Licence, and the fee, with your application for the permit. I suggest that you also include the following sentence in your covering letter: "I declare that the trailer will be modified (if necessary), to comply with the ADR's that apply at the date the trailer is first supplied to the market, or first used in transport in Australia". Just one thing more. You use the word "trailers" in the header. If you are in fact importing more than one trailer, include them all on the one application. That way you only have to pay the same one fee, which I note has remained unchanged for some years at $50.00. Good luck. Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 1:17 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Importing trailers Does anybody out there have clue as to what a standard class Cobra or Swan trailer weighs when empty?? Ron S -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2437/5153 - Release Date: 07/24/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] The use of GPS in gliding
Opps! I must amend one of the task TPs. Substitute Jerilderie A/F for Deniliquin A/F. I could say "just testing" (Deniliquin gives 904 km - I wish), but I would be lying. Sorry about that! Incidentally, before GPS, and I can't pin the date when I got my first machine, we had to measure distances off a map: A paper map that might shrink or expand, depending on the atmospheric conditions! The formula existed to calculate great circle distances, but you needed to be a mathematical genius to use this, and have access to 7 figure tables to boot. Yeah, and the formula also changed from time to time too, depending on the model of the Earth that was being used at the time. Of course it wasn't called Earth - it was "a flattened oblate spheroid"... And in remote areas (no obvious landmarks), we had to fly on compass headings, and calculate drift etc. All I can say is thank God that this aspect of the "good old days" (just like the start gate), is gone forever. The introduction of GPS into gliding was without doubt one of the movements great boons. Gary - Original Message - From: gstev...@bigpond.com To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Hi All, If you like a good story, here is Col's account of his 750 km flight (referred to by Bruce), as it appears on the Canberra Gliding Club's web site. Date is 7 Jan 1999. The 4th Jan 1999 was OK too. In Libelle BL did 764 k with a total flight time of 7h 59m: Benalla - Becom - Deniliquin A/F - The Rock - Urana - Benalla. Gary - Original Message - From: Bruce Campbell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial This really was a special run of weather. There were several great days in a row, but the last was the best as far as Temora went - and it was the only day I didn't have to work. There were at least four 750km flights in club class gliders on that day - Ziggy Kominek in Jantar Std 2 CQT, Col Vassarotti in Std Libelle BE, Gary Stevenson in Std Libelle BL, and myself in Std Cirrus AM. I think David Pietsch may have done a 750 also in ASW20 ZZ (not sure it was known as ZZ then) although at the time the 20 was a bit above club class. This was the same day that Tom Claffey set the Std Class Australian record for a 1000 (1016km) FAI triangle speed in Discus B FV. Gary and I did Temora-Hillston-Narromne-Temora - a 750km FAI triangle (756km). Mine was memorable for several reasons - a 12:25 launch after rigging with an optimistic 750 in the little black box, then cruising at 100 knots in a Cirrus to stay out of the streeting cloud at 11,000 ft on the first leg to Hillston, passing Tomas Suchanek and Tom at Forbes on the last leg (they were en route to Narromine), landing after 7:02 (107km/hr)..it was an awesome flight. 900 was possible in the Cirrus that day. Gary may recollect it too. I think that that may have been they weather cycle that got Harry from Keepit to Gawler, but not sure. The spoiler was the tug release point for me was on the wrong side of the airfield (en route) so I was never able to claim it. Oh well - I'll claim the 750 when I do my 1000 I thought. Never got there despite many attempts over 10 years (in Discus A D1 - best 925km but not claimable either due abandoning 2nd turn) - just needed that magic '99 day again. I watched weather closely whilst juggling work commitments (which as a water resources engineer also allowed me to get paid for weather watching!), but never saw a day lke it, so I don't subscribe to the 7 year cycle! Cheers Bruce Bruce Campbell On 18 July 2012 16:03, Harry wrote: Hi All, The amazing flights referred resulted from some rather special weather conditions.Most of you would remember the Sydney to Hobart fleet which ran into a ferocious storm of the Victorian coast and into Bass Strait. Some boats were sunk and lives lost. This abnormal low pressure system dumped billions of cubic metres of cold dry air over Victoria and much of NSW, much further north than the usual cold fronts which pass through at that time of the year and produce the usual good conditions which are centred along the line Waikerie, Tocumwal and Corowa . As the succeeding high pressure system went through this low dew point air warmed up day by day and produced the ideal temperature profile, including cloud bases of up to 14,000 ft. I remember it well. The rather wetter patterns of the last couple of years have been the result of the high pressure systems dragging in warm moist ocean air. the length of fetch has often extended over a 1,000 km resulting in dew points of up to and over 20 deg. The dew point of air from the southern ocean is usually below 10 an sometimes
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial
Hi Patch, I am for sure NOT knocking Wooden/Vintage gliders as such. Carefully note that in my recent post I was referring to 1-26 gliders only - mostly constructed of metal: What are their fatigue limits I wonder?. Have any tests been done to establish a base? HOWEVER despite your disclaimers about "glue and white ants" old wooden gliders can fail, and DO fail if they are not lovingly looked after. I am not going into THAT territory! K6s were on the way out when I learnt to fly gliders in the early 70s. I got a couple of hours in at that time in 6's of various Marks up to the E. The B model using an external fuselage dolly for launching, which was dropped by the pilot, at a well chosen moment (very) soon after rotation was an interesting variation. I did not get to fly it, but observed the many ways this launching method could go wrong! Nothing wrong with this idea as concept. An idea explored, and then discarded as impractable. This exercise was of course a step that inevitably led to the development of the retraceable undercarriage. ** Here is a story for you. I hope you find it entertaining and more importantly, instructive. I have in the past done a few 500's in ES60Bs. Details of most of these flight are lost to me, but I do recall a flight out of Mildura on the 9 Dec 1980. The interesting thing here for me was that at the time I did not have my Gold C height claim signed off, and on the day, given my low point (which was just off launch), acheiving this goal looked just possible. On this day the thermal strength severely declined towards the top few hundred feet of of the climb. 6-8 knots were available for most of the climb. Towards the top it was a knot or 2. So I had a choice, leave the thermals at an optimum height, to maximize speed, or milk the thermals for a gold height claim. I decided on the latter. It took me 3 very painful goes to be certain that I had recorded the necessary absolute attitude to file a successful Gold C height claim. Needless to say all the time I spent in 1 or 2 knots meant that I did not win the day! So why do I remember this day so well? Well it turned out that my altimeter under-read by 200' and in fact I had gained the necessary height on my very first climb! Yeah the margin was that fine! Stats are TASK: MDA - BALRENALD a/f - BIRCHIP silo - MDA - 514.9 KM, 81.5 kph So we come to the question: What (from your armchair), and with 20/20 vision would you have done? Let me say that since then, over the years, I have made Gold C height dozens of times. If you have a look at the record book, you might note that on the very next day Terry Cubley, from this site, in a Standard Cirrus established a 300 km triangle Australian record - across all classes - that stood for many, many years. I too flew on the day: in Super Arrow GYS: 15 knots average to lets say 15, 000/18,000 ft- maybe more? I did not have oxygen, so the height of convection is only a guess. Maybe Cubley or someone else who was there on the day can say just what cloudbase was? Here are a few more figures for you to contemplate. If the lift was 1500 fpm So (again ironically), the very next day after I had struggled so, I again got my Gold C gain of height, as the second of many, without the slightest problem. ginal Message - From: "Ruth Patching" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Hi Stevo, We used the old AG year books and listed all the records done in wooden aircraft and drew our line there. The records tumbled when the Boomerang/Austria/Foka were replaced with Diamants, Libelles , Pheobus and Cirrus. They weren't just a step up, they were a leap. On some exceptional days there were some exceptional flights done. Geoff's in the Boomerang and Brian Mclaren's 800 odd Km in the Standard Austria were just outstanding. What I reckon is that if they knew what we know now, they may have gone further. In the last 2 years there has been flights of over 1000 k in a K6E (USA) and more recently the 600 k in a K2 two seater (Europe). A K2 not even a K7, probably a 24:1 glide angle. I can't endorse your comment that these gliders need to be retired. I argue it's not really about the glider, it's more about the pilot extending themselves. I won't even say that anyone can jump in a current machine and just chalk off their silver C. Doesn't matter what you fly, it's still a goal to achieve in a flying machine without an engine. Your comments about glue and structural failure needs to be toned down a bit. Even you know about delamination in glass structures so don't just point the finger at wood. Most glues have demonstrated longevity, particularly Casien, which would have to be one of the most careful glues to m
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial
Hi Patch, Please enlighten me. What are the achieved benchmarks - both official and unofficial - for a Boomerang/Super Arrow, that you know about? I seem to recall that a couple of SA pilots were doing flights of 600k plus, many years ago, including at least one flight across Spencer Gulf. Do you have an AG reference for that flight? Ballsy stuff maybe, but I suggest it might be hard to beat Percy Wills' flight, and story on how he almost(?) accidentally glid across the English Channel. I endorse your comments in Para 2. It seems to me that despite my earlier comment (which I stand by), about the best place for most 1-26 gliders is in a museum, over the years the owners (as a collective), of these ships have tested all the limits of what is possible with this type, (and the type did evolve, as you well know, so there are many model variations), under (almost?), every possible situation. It is extremely unlikely that any current record for the type can be improved upon. In my opinion another good reason to put 99% of these ships in museums, before structural/glue or other failure kills somebody. Having made a point or two about the 1-26 as a type, let me make one more about the skill of the best of the 1-26 pilots. It can be summed up in one word -Awesome! Gary - Original Message - From: "Ruth Patching" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Hey WPP, What you are proposing is very similar to what some of us in the vintage movement have been doing for some time now, unofficially. What we try to do with our gliders is to fly them to their fullest potential. We do that by looking at the records of the era and endeavouring to better those results in our flying. Given the improvements in instrumentation, our knowledge of weather and more importantly the improvements in flying skills it is a personal acheivement when it all comes together. I am sure the Boomerang is capable of much longer flights and believe they would have, if the rapid performance gains with GRP gliders hadn't happened so quickly and replacing those gliders within such a short period of time. Patch - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, 18 July, 2012 12:50:14 PM (GMT+1000) Auto-Detected Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial G'day All, I've been keen to set up some unofficial club class records since getting my Cirrus. Hope you see the concept/idea as I've seen it. The reason behind it, As per '3.2' - All in good fun, to give those who can't go for official records due to financial reasons (eg, not being able to obtain a Discus 2, to go for a STD class record) or not being their preferred class. In 1999, Tom Claffey & others experienced some amazing weather conditions in AUS. I think that the weather cycle goes in 7yr increments. Now approaching 14yrs later, I think we could be in for a good season - cross your fingers, I & many others would love a regular great season for a change!!! All comments & potential additions on the below welcome. SeeYou, WPP www.facebook.com/W3Racing Unofficial Australian Club Club Class Records - Rules V1.0 Concept by Adam Woolley Written by Adam Woolley 1 - Philosophy: To provide a friendly and honest unofficial record list/rules for Australian pilots, whom race/fly in Australian airspace, in the gliders on the Australian Club Class Handicap list provided on the GFA website. 2 - RULES: Use the Australian Junior Record Rules (found on www.joeyglide.com.au & www.ajgc.org.au websites) if you want to go 'official official', as kindly put together by Andrew Maddocks. The below are amendments & simple reminders, in no particular order & are generally based on the KISS principle, with safety in mind! If you don't want to read the rules, & if your an honest person - the below will suffice. 2.1 - Entries Open: 18 JUL 2012. 2.2 - Eligable Gliders: Club Class Gliders, as found on the current years GFA Club Class Handicap list. 2.3 - Handicaps: the use of the current GFA Club Class Handicap list will be used for the flight (date) submitted. 2.4 - Reference Weight: the use of the current reference weight as provided by the GFA club class handicap list for the (date) submitted. 2.5 - After Market Modifications: No penalty will be given for the addition of winglets, wing fillets or extractor vents. 2.6 - Handicap Adjustments: 0.005 disadvantage per part there of 12kg over REFERENCE WEIGHT. No performance advantage given for gliders that fly below REFERENCE WEIGHT. 2.7 - Start Rule: 1km radius over pre-declared waypoint. 2.8 - Turnpoint(s): 500m radius. 2.9 - Finish: 3km radius from the pre-declared waypoint. 2.10 - Record submission: E-Mail your details appropriate for the flight (Start & Finish Point, Turnpoints
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial
Hallo Simon, Did you notice if you drop the "y" off year, you get "ear", which is of course very relevant to Genesis 41. However when it comes to ears, I prefer Shakespeare's Julius Caesar, Act III, Scene II, with includes Mark Antony's speech beginning "Friend's Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears", and the input of Bob Newhart (?) who gave this line a whole different dimension when he added something like " Hey you! What have you got in that sack?" And the one word response? well I think you can work that out. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: "Simon Holding" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Genesis 41:29? -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Scutter Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012 1:22 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Perhaps Adam is referring to the El Nino / La Nina oscillation, which has a large influence on Queensland's weather patterns. Very roughly 5 year cycles. -Matthew [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ni%C3%B1o-Southern_Oscillation On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:10 PM, wrote: WPP, "I think the weather cycle goes in 7 yr increments." Now that is a very brave statement indeed! Memory is a fallible thing, but I seem to recall (from many -30/40? -years ago), that the Dutch had to hand at that time, over 400 years worth of continuous weather records. This data (exactly what was available was not stated), was analysed for cyclic pattens. The result - NO PATTEN AT ALL COULD BE DEDUCED. Does anyone know about this or similar work, and can comment further? Gary - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:50 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial G'day All, I've been keen to set up some unofficial club class records since getting my Cirrus. Hope you see the concept/idea as I've seen it. The reason behind it, As per '3.2' - All in good fun, to give those who can't go for official records due to financial reasons (eg, not being able to obtain a Discus 2, to go for a STD class record) or not being their preferred class. In 1999, Tom Claffey & others experienced some amazing weather conditions in AUS. I think that the weather cycle goes in 7yr increments. Now approaching 14yrs later, I think we could be in for a good season - cross your fingers, I & many others would love a regular great season for a change!!! All comments & potential additions on the below welcome. SeeYou, WPP www.facebook.com/W3Racing Unofficial Australian Club Club Class Records - Rules V1.0 Concept by Adam Woolley Written by Adam Woolley 1 - Philosophy: To provide a friendly and honest unofficial record list/rules for Australian pilots, whom race/fly in Australian airspace, in the gliders on the Australian Club Class Handicap list provided on the GFA website. 2 - RULES: Use the Australian Junior Record Rules (found on www.joeyglide.com.au & www.ajgc.org.au websites) if you want to go 'official official', as kindly put together by Andrew Maddocks. The below are amendments & simple reminders, in no particular order & are generally based on the KISS principle, with safety in mind! If you don't want to read the rules, & if your an honest person - the below will suffice. 2.1 - Entries Open: 18 JUL 2012. 2.2 - Eligable Gliders: Club Class Gliders, as found on the current years GFA Club Class Handicap list. 2.3 - Handicaps: the use of the current GFA Club Class Handicap list will be used for the flight (date) submitted. 2.4 - Reference Weight: the use of the current reference weight as provided by the GFA club class handicap list for the (date) submitted. 2.5 - After Market Modifications: No penalty will be given for the addition of winglets, wing fillets or extractor vents. 2.6 - Handicap Adjustments: 0.005 disadvantage per part there of 12kg over REFERENCE WEIGHT. No performance advantage given for gliders that fly below REFERENCE WEIGHT. 2.7 - Start Rule: 1km radius over pre-declared waypoint. 2.8 - Turnpoint(s): 500m radius. 2.9 - Finish: 3km radius from the pre-declared waypoint. 2.10 - Record submission: E-Mail your details appropriate for the flight (Start & Finish Point, Turnpoints (if not a free distance or height gain) inc waypoint details, glider type, approximate weight (or accurate if known)), & *.igc file to, agwool...@hotmail.com within 48hrs of 'end of roll'. 2.11 - Start/Finish Heights: You must finish at the predetermined finish point, within a 1000m of your start height & predetermined start point. For 'free distance' one way flights, you must start (predetermined point) below 1000m AGL & land safely at any point. 2.12 - Records: Each record will stay firm
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial
Very good Simon! WPP certainly has some support for his 7 year theory there. Many would say that if it is in the Bible it must be true. Now where is that dratted cup of mine? I have to consult the tea leaves. Gary - Original Message - From: "Simon Holding" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Genesis 41:29? -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew Scutter Sent: Wednesday, 18 July 2012 1:22 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial Perhaps Adam is referring to the El Nino / La Nina oscillation, which has a large influence on Queensland's weather patterns. Very roughly 5 year cycles. -Matthew [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Ni%C3%B1o-Southern_Oscillation On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 1:10 PM, wrote: WPP, "I think the weather cycle goes in 7 yr increments." Now that is a very brave statement indeed! Memory is a fallible thing, but I seem to recall (from many -30/40? -years ago), that the Dutch had to hand at that time, over 400 years worth of continuous weather records. This data (exactly what was available was not stated), was analysed for cyclic pattens. The result - NO PATTEN AT ALL COULD BE DEDUCED. Does anyone know about this or similar work, and can comment further? Gary - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:50 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial G'day All, I've been keen to set up some unofficial club class records since getting my Cirrus. Hope you see the concept/idea as I've seen it. The reason behind it, As per '3.2' - All in good fun, to give those who can't go for official records due to financial reasons (eg, not being able to obtain a Discus 2, to go for a STD class record) or not being their preferred class. In 1999, Tom Claffey & others experienced some amazing weather conditions in AUS. I think that the weather cycle goes in 7yr increments. Now approaching 14yrs later, I think we could be in for a good season - cross your fingers, I & many others would love a regular great season for a change!!! All comments & potential additions on the below welcome. SeeYou, WPP www.facebook.com/W3Racing Unofficial Australian Club Club Class Records - Rules V1.0 Concept by Adam Woolley Written by Adam Woolley 1 - Philosophy: To provide a friendly and honest unofficial record list/rules for Australian pilots, whom race/fly in Australian airspace, in the gliders on the Australian Club Class Handicap list provided on the GFA website. 2 - RULES: Use the Australian Junior Record Rules (found on www.joeyglide.com.au & www.ajgc.org.au websites) if you want to go 'official official', as kindly put together by Andrew Maddocks. The below are amendments & simple reminders, in no particular order & are generally based on the KISS principle, with safety in mind! If you don't want to read the rules, & if your an honest person - the below will suffice. 2.1 - Entries Open: 18 JUL 2012. 2.2 - Eligable Gliders: Club Class Gliders, as found on the current years GFA Club Class Handicap list. 2.3 - Handicaps: the use of the current GFA Club Class Handicap list will be used for the flight (date) submitted. 2.4 - Reference Weight: the use of the current reference weight as provided by the GFA club class handicap list for the (date) submitted. 2.5 - After Market Modifications: No penalty will be given for the addition of winglets, wing fillets or extractor vents. 2.6 - Handicap Adjustments: 0.005 disadvantage per part there of 12kg over REFERENCE WEIGHT. No performance advantage given for gliders that fly below REFERENCE WEIGHT. 2.7 - Start Rule: 1km radius over pre-declared waypoint. 2.8 - Turnpoint(s): 500m radius. 2.9 - Finish: 3km radius from the pre-declared waypoint. 2.10 - Record submission: E-Mail your details appropriate for the flight (Start & Finish Point, Turnpoints (if not a free distance or height gain) inc waypoint details, glider type, approximate weight (or accurate if known)), & *.igc file to, agwool...@hotmail.com within 48hrs of 'end of roll'. 2.11 - Start/Finish Heights: You must finish at the predetermined finish point, within a 1000m of your start height & predetermined start point. For 'free distance' one way flights, you must start (predetermined point) below 1000m AGL & land safely at any point. 2.12 - Records: Each record will stay firm until beaten by the current years GFA handicap for the club class glider used. ie, won't be changed each season if the glider handicap or reference weights change. 2.13 - Declarations: A flight must be declared before going through the start circle, unless it's a Free Distance flight. 3 - GENERAL 3.1 - Remember, unofficial.
Re: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial
WPP, "I think the weather cycle goes in 7 yr increments." Now that is a very brave statement indeed! Memory is a fallible thing, but I seem to recall (from many -30/40? -years ago), that the Dutch had to hand at that time, over 400 years worth of continuous weather records. This data (exactly what was available was not stated), was analysed for cyclic pattens. The result - NO PATTEN AT ALL COULD BE DEDUCED. Does anyone know about this or similar work, and can comment further? Gary - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:50 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Club Class Records: unofficial G'day All, I've been keen to set up some unofficial club class records since getting my Cirrus. Hope you see the concept/idea as I've seen it. The reason behind it, As per '3.2' - All in good fun, to give those who can't go for official records due to financial reasons (eg, not being able to obtain a Discus 2, to go for a STD class record) or not being their preferred class. In 1999, Tom Claffey & others experienced some amazing weather conditions in AUS. I think that the weather cycle goes in 7yr increments. Now approaching 14yrs later, I think we could be in for a good season - cross your fingers, I & many others would love a regular great season for a change!!! All comments & potential additions on the below welcome. SeeYou, WPP www.facebook.com/W3Racing Unofficial Australian Club Club Class Records - Rules V1.0 Concept by Adam Woolley Written by Adam Woolley 1 - Philosophy: To provide a friendly and honest unofficial record list/rules for Australian pilots, whom race/fly in Australian airspace, in the gliders on the Australian Club Class Handicap list provided on the GFA website. 2 - RULES: Use the Australian Junior Record Rules (found on www.joeyglide.com.au & www.ajgc.org.au websites) if you want to go 'official official', as kindly put together by Andrew Maddocks. The below are amendments & simple reminders, in no particular order & are generally based on the KISS principle, with safety in mind! If you don't want to read the rules, & if your an honest person - the below will suffice. 2.1 - Entries Open: 18 JUL 2012. 2.2 - Eligable Gliders: Club Class Gliders, as found on the current years GFA Club Class Handicap list. 2.3 - Handicaps: the use of the current GFA Club Class Handicap list will be used for the flight (date) submitted. 2.4 - Reference Weight: the use of the current reference weight as provided by the GFA club class handicap list for the (date) submitted. 2.5 - After Market Modifications: No penalty will be given for the addition of winglets, wing fillets or extractor vents. 2.6 - Handicap Adjustments: 0.005 disadvantage per part there of 12kg over REFERENCE WEIGHT. No performance advantage given for gliders that fly below REFERENCE WEIGHT. 2.7 - Start Rule: 1km radius over pre-declared waypoint. 2.8 - Turnpoint(s): 500m radius. 2.9 - Finish: 3km radius from the pre-declared waypoint. 2.10 - Record submission: E-Mail your details appropriate for the flight (Start & Finish Point, Turnpoints (if not a free distance or height gain) inc waypoint details, glider type, approximate weight (or accurate if known)), & *.igc file to, agwool...@hotmail.com within 48hrs of 'end of roll'. 2.11 - Start/Finish Heights: You must finish at the predetermined finish point, within a 1000m of your start height & predetermined start point. For 'free distance' one way flights, you must start (predetermined point) below 1000m AGL & land safely at any point. 2.12 - Records: Each record will stay firm until beaten by the current years GFA handicap for the club class glider used. ie, won't be changed each season if the glider handicap or reference weights change. 2.13 - Declarations: A flight must be declared before going through the start circle, unless it's a Free Distance flight. 3 - GENERAL 3.1 - Remember, unofficial. If you cheat intentially or not being honest, you're only ripping your fellow mates off. 3.2 - All in good fun, to give those who can't go for official records due to financial reasons (eg, not being able to obtain a Discus 2, to go for a STD class record) or not being their preferred class. 3.3 - If the GFA thinks its a good idea, more than happy for the rules to be re-written officially. Though I would like to think that they'll accept the unofficial records, even of they have an unofficial column until the record is beaten officially - to reward the efforts that we've previously gone too! 3.4 - I know there's lots of holes in the above. Use your noggin for what you think is right and fair! 3.5 - It's just a game, have fun! 4 - Records obtainable 4.1 - An excel spreadsheet available on request, until I find a place to upload it to the web. 4.2 - Free Distance Free Distance Free Out & Retun Distance Free Three Turnpoint Distance 4.3 - Distance to Goal Str
Re: [Aus-soaring] Horsham Week 2013
Hi Tom, Hopefully one of the members of the HW Committee will see your email, take up your suggestion, and let us all know that it is done. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Gary, As a regular you know that. For those of us not local we don't know [or care much] Last year we copped flack for a conflict with the nationals, I reckon it goes both ways - the 40 year tradition could have slid a week. As far as I am concerned if it does not appear on the GFA calendar then it does not exist!!! It only takes one of you to send a quick e-mail. Tom -- From: "gstev...@bigpond.com" To: tom claffey ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, 13 July 2012 1:09 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Hi Tom, Re Horsham Week dates: Think "Starts on the first Saturday in February" and you are 99% there! A quick glance at the calendar then gives you the dates: 2 February 2013 - 9 February 2013, inclusive. This calculation method has not changed in 40+ years! I totally agree that the Horsham Week clash last year was shockingly badly managed. Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: tom claffey ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Confirming dates : Tuesday 22Jan - Thursday 31Jan at Narromine. Could the organisers of Horsham week put their dates on the GFA website PLEASE!!! For non regulars we need to know to avoid problems like last season! Tom From: tom claffey To: aus-soaring Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 2:43 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Hi all, The latest Gliding Australia mag has a paragraph on the 20M comp on page 7. Due to conflicting dates this comp will almost certainly not happen in Dec but in Jan 2013 at Narromine. [after Benalla, before Horsham] As soon as dates finalised I will post them here and send them on to GFA Sec to put on website calendar. We hope by using the new dates with no other conflicts more of you will compete, it should be a hoot! Regards, Tom ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2437/5128 - Release Date: 07/12/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2437/5128 - Release Date: 07/12/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals
Hi Tom, Re Horsham Week dates: Think "Starts on the first Saturday in February" and you are 99% there! A quick glance at the calendar then gives you the dates: 2 February 2013 - 9 February 2013, inclusive. This calculation method has not changed in 40+ years! I totally agree that the Horsham Week clash last year was shockingly badly managed. Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: tom claffey ; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Confirming dates : Tuesday 22Jan - Thursday 31Jan at Narromine. Could the organisers of Horsham week put their dates on the GFA website PLEASE!!! For non regulars we need to know to avoid problems like last season! Tom -- From: tom claffey To: aus-soaring Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 2:43 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] 20M Nationals Hi all, The latest Gliding Australia mag has a paragraph on the 20M comp on page 7. Due to conflicting dates this comp will almost certainly not happen in Dec but in Jan 2013 at Narromine. [after Benalla, before Horsham] As soon as dates finalised I will post them here and send them on to GFA Sec to put on website calendar. We hope by using the new dates with no other conflicts more of you will compete, it should be a hoot! Regards, Tom ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2437/5128 - Release Date: 07/12/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video
Thanks Rob. That confirms Ian M's post. I wonder if the rationale has been documented, and if so, is the document available to us taxpayers? Can you add some background/detail? Gary - Original Message - From: Rob Moore To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 12:00 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video The Chamber is now out of commission Rob Moore On 08/07/2012, at 10:54 PM, wrote: Hi All, In the "good old days" I did a couple of runs in the RAAF hypobaric chamber at Pt Cook, with another nineteen glider pilots. This chamber was much later relocated to Edinburgh SA airforce base, and as far as I know is still in use there today, by the military. As Ian says, it was an Aviation Medicine Day, with the chamber run being just part of the total experience. The basic scenario involved twenty glider pilots, divided into two groups of ten - 10 being the capacity of the chamber. One group did the chamber run, whilst the other group was given the essential theory - and more.Then we swapped. Yeah, a run to about 23,000' (RAAF normal for ab initios??), is what happened on both occasions. Just like Goldilocks and the 3 bears - not too much and not too little. You are in the danger zone, but there is room to react, if the s**t is hitting the fan. Google "time of useful consciousness" to get an understanding of this subject. The chamber can of course simulate conditions to a much greater height than that - possibly to the upper edge of the atmosphere and beyond: The details are lost in the mists of time, but maybe we just did not ask the right questions for those details (see point 2 below). Apart from these two matters, several things about my two days at Pt Cook come to mind: a.. The TOTAL professionalism of the RAAF crew running the courses. b.. Their friendliness, and willingness to share information and further discuss related matters.(We had to wait around for a while at the end of the day to ensure that there were no unexpected negative after-effects resulting from the chamber run.) c.. The sheer number of RAAF personnel required to conduct and monitor the chamber run - labour intensive for sure. d.. On my 2nd run, how the team coped with one attendee, who started hyperventilating in the chamber. e.. Lastly (but by no means least), experiencing the sound (from within the highly insulated chamber), of the run-up of the engines powering the chamber evacuation pumps. I can tell you that the hairs on the back of my neck stood up as those engines wound up to a banshee scream. For what it is worth, I will give you my conclusion from these experiences - there is only one: WHEN IT COMES TO HIGH ALTITUDE FLYING, UNLESS YOU ARE TOTALLY PREPARED, DON'T FUCK WITH DEATH. IF YOU ARE NOT TOTALLY PREPARED, ULTIMATELY YOU WILL LOOSE. Geoff Vincent (who is a member of this forum), and an experienced wave flyer has devoted considerable time to documenting what is required to be "totally prepared", If you want to go wave flying, and are new to the game, I suggest that you get in contact with Geoff - geoff.vinc...@optusnet.com.au Regarding glider pilots using the RAAF hypobaric chamber I offer the following comment. The head of the AAF is a very experienced glider pilot, and I suggest that our new president (Anita), gets in contact with him (Air Marshall Geoff Brown), on this topic.However, I further suggest that you do not hold your breath if you expect a positive outcome. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Ian Mc Phee To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video In the good old days Brad Edwards took a bus load group of us down to RAAF Richmond for an aviation Medicine day and afternoon was a run in decompression chamber and from memory we were taken to 23000ft and no way could any of us complete the counting back by three ie given 100, 97, 94, __,__ There is a well know audio of think F5 pilot having trouble closing his canopy then finally takes off and no mater how hard controllers tried they could not get him to move the Oxy regulators levers forward (giving him 100% oxy) and he just went into subconsciousness to eventually crash. Gather the only serviceable decompression chambers are in NZ now. DAMEs in AUS just experience mixed gasses these days. I think it is a shame at least commercial pilots are not required to do a mixed gas run and that would be more useful than the english test all new pilots must now do to get a PPL and pay a contractor $100 for the 10min test. Ian M On 8 July 2012 09:35, Anthony Smith wrote: Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask bac
Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video
Hi All, In the "good old days" I did a couple of runs in the RAAF hypobaric chamber at Pt Cook, with another nineteen glider pilots. This chamber was much later relocated to Edinburgh SA airforce base, and as far as I know is still in use there today, by the military. As Ian says, it was an Aviation Medicine Day, with the chamber run being just part of the total experience. The basic scenario involved twenty glider pilots, divided into two groups of ten - 10 being the capacity of the chamber. One group did the chamber run, whilst the other group was given the essential theory - and more.Then we swapped. Yeah, a run to about 23,000' (RAAF normal for ab initios??), is what happened on both occasions. Just like Goldilocks and the 3 bears - not too much and not too little. You are in the danger zone, but there is room to react, if the s**t is hitting the fan. Google "time of useful consciousness" to get an understanding of this subject. The chamber can of course simulate conditions to a much greater height than that - possibly to the upper edge of the atmosphere and beyond: The details are lost in the mists of time, but maybe we just did not ask the right questions for those details (see point 2 below). Apart from these two matters, several things about my two days at Pt Cook come to mind: a.. The TOTAL professionalism of the RAAF crew running the courses. b.. Their friendliness, and willingness to share information and further discuss related matters.(We had to wait around for a while at the end of the day to ensure that there were no unexpected negative after-effects resulting from the chamber run.) c.. The sheer number of RAAF personnel required to conduct and monitor the chamber run - labour intensive for sure. d.. On my 2nd run, how the team coped with one attendee, who started hyperventilating in the chamber. e.. Lastly (but by no means least), experiencing the sound (from within the highly insulated chamber), of the run-up of the engines powering the chamber evacuation pumps. I can tell you that the hairs on the back of my neck stood up as those engines wound up to a banshee scream. For what it is worth, I will give you my conclusion from these experiences - there is only one: WHEN IT COMES TO HIGH ALTITUDE FLYING, UNLESS YOU ARE TOTALLY PREPARED, DON'T FUCK WITH DEATH. IF YOU ARE NOT TOTALLY PREPARED, ULTIMATELY YOU WILL LOOSE. Geoff Vincent (who is a member of this forum), and an experienced wave flyer has devoted considerable time to documenting what is required to be "totally prepared", If you want to go wave flying, and are new to the game, I suggest that you get in contact with Geoff - geoff.vinc...@optusnet.com.au Regarding glider pilots using the RAAF hypobaric chamber I offer the following comment. The head of the AAF is a very experienced glider pilot, and I suggest that our new president (Anita), gets in contact with him (Air Marshall Geoff Brown), on this topic.However, I further suggest that you do not hold your breath if you expect a positive outcome. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Ian Mc Phee To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video In the good old days Brad Edwards took a bus load group of us down to RAAF Richmond for an aviation Medicine day and afternoon was a run in decompression chamber and from memory we were taken to 23000ft and no way could any of us complete the counting back by three ie given 100, 97, 94, __,__ There is a well know audio of think F5 pilot having trouble closing his canopy then finally takes off and no mater how hard controllers tried they could not get him to move the Oxy regulators levers forward (giving him 100% oxy) and he just went into subconsciousness to eventually crash. Gather the only serviceable decompression chambers are in NZ now. DAMEs in AUS just experience mixed gasses these days. I think it is a shame at least commercial pilots are not required to do a mixed gas run and that would be more useful than the english test all new pilots must now do to get a PPL and pay a contractor $100 for the 10min test. Ian M On 8 July 2012 09:35, Anthony Smith wrote: Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring. No from not caring. I still cared and wanted to put the mask back on. My experience was the complete inability to get my brain from A to B. I heard the voice say "Number 3, put your mask back on". It took some time to remember that I was 'Number 3' - even though I thought I was fine and was reacting OK. Then there was the fumbling with the mask and the few moments (actually quite a few moments) staring at it whilst I tried to work out which way was up on the
Re: [Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story
Hi Mike, Thanks for that information. Very clear and logical. Anthony Smith's earlier forecast on this site, seems to me to have a ring of truth, validity, and inevitability about it sigh! And all this, despite the great statistical work that was done on the subject by Dr Bob Hall (ex Airspace Officer and ex GFA President), quite a few years ago now. I suspect that the scenarios that he used then have barely changed, and therefore his findings are still valid today - but of course swept under the carpet, and totally ignored by the current crop of bureaucrats, if they are even aware of the study. Can someone persuade Bob to comment here, and maybe give us an update on what has changed. Politically of course, because this is the only major area that can be manipulated, and IS being best manipulated by organisations that have the funds and the know-how on how to do it. When it comes to matters aviation, and in particular gliding, do not doubt the ignorance of our political masters, and as so graphically illustrated, time after time - the media, and the general public . I have advocated for years now, that the GFA needs to address the political issue, and further that it will require a huge input of AVAILABLE funds. However, in fact (in ABSOLUTE terms), the dollars required by the GFA for this purpose is quite minuscule. However this is a mostly unrelated issue, albeit far more important, and might prove to be a new discussion thread! For the gliding fraternity, Flarm has been a great boon. It has saved lives and will continue to do so . until it is superseded. The contribution of Nigel Andrews in introducing this system into Australia should not be overlooked. Mike, given all this, ADSB as you suggest would seem to be the route to pursue for sailplane pilots: For GA and ultralights too! The GPS issue you mention can no doubt and will be resolved. However where does this leave our hang-glider and para-glider friends? 760 km done in Texas just a few hours ago. Lots of potential for conflict there! Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story At 08:20 PM 4/07/2012, you wrote: There will always be attacks from airspace users who are intolerant of other users, it's seems to be an ego thing similar to mines bigger, faster or louder than yours. That said I also believe the future direction in the area is in ADSB and I don't believe we should be investing in what will become a legacy technology, transponders have served aviation well but it's time to move forward. I believe products like Power Flarm will emerge to meet our needs and the needs of those we share airspace with and most of will be happy; there will always be those who complain. Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia PowerFlarm is a Flarm with an additional RECEIVER to pick up 1090 MHz signals from Mode A, C , S and ADSB transponders. Other airspace users won't be able to see you unless they have a Flarm receiver and realistically for the heavy metal that simply isn't going to happen. Glider pilots may be able to fit an uncertified Flarm with velcro to the top of the instrument panel but Rex or other airlines sure can't. Even if they were allowed to fit the uncertified equipment the installation would cost heaps for little benefit at the likely closing speeds due to the short range, low power Flarm signals. Even if they got through the heated windscreen with embedded metal film. Avoiding that problem means external antennas. What was that about cost? The airlines quite reasonably can say they have bought and fitted certified equipment for collision avoidance, Transponders , ADSB and TCAS and so should everyone else. Gliding simply isn't going to win this. I doubt any airspace restrictions have ever been avoided by any actions of official gliding bodies anywhere. There may have been some small temporary victories but overall a losing battle. However, in Australia we have actually had a reduction in he inverted wedding cakes over the main centers. Fitting ADSB OUT to let other traffic see us is a powerful argument for further reductions in these. ADSB is best thought of as a super Flarm with range to the horizon. Yes it requires a transponder that is ADSB capable. The Trig and others are already Mode A/C/S transponders that can be upgraded to ADSB OUT with the addition of a suitable GPS datastream. If you fit such a transponder and convince the authorities about the GPS yo
Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds
Mike, Nicely put. I was hoping that you would get around to putting "pen to paper". Thanks for the update. Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Durrant To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds Hi Folk, Argentina applied to run the comp and I understand they were the sole applicant for Std Class and Club Class, everyone else focussed on the flapped comps, IMHO this does raise the question about priority and continuance of the Std class at a IGC/WGC level. I think the Argentinian organizers are doing the best they can in the circumstances, but Argentina still has significant import/export barriers due lack of foreign exchange and therefore has various charges associated with major capital equipment (aka a modern Std Class Glider)amounting to circa 5k each way to get the glider to/from the airfield. This in itself would not have precluded me competing, but the cumulative affect of this, plus glider freight costs, uncertainty/inability to source insurance, and the total cost became prohibitive for both myself and Allan. Tobi and Craig can rent locally and thus Club Class is much more viable, albeit still expensive for each individual. Suspect that the Standard Class comp will be dominated by the fully funded teams and perhaps locals. I wish the organizers and all competitors a very successful competition, especially the Australian team in Club and World class, who will each make significant personal sacrifices to compete on our behalf, whatever class they fly in. Best Regards, Mike Durrant VH-FQF/OD On 01/07/2012, at 5:57 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: At 05:18 PM 1/07/2012, you wrote: So who was genius that awarded the WC to Argentina? Cheers Paul The IGC. Everything you need to know about the quality decision making abilities of that body may be summed up in one short 3 character alphanumeric designator. PW5 -- Mike Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2437/5103 - Release Date: 06/30/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Goals
Paul, Greetings. Your comment might be true, but it is meaningless in the present context. >From your statement I suspect that you have not flown a PW 5 for 100 hours or >so, and probably not even for 1 hour. We are talking quite different orders of (REDUCED), magnitude of performance here compared to LS 8 or even LS 4, or your own SZD 55. You might be somewhat surprised at just how many hours Allan now has in a LS 8. I don't know either, but my guess is well over 100 hours maybe closer to 150 hrs. More than enough anyway, to be rated as competent, and competitive on type. Genuine, experienced, PW 5 drivers at World level, understand every nuance of their ship and the air they are flying in and react accordingly.Just in case you are missing the point that I made in line 3 above, they have to react quite differently to a LS 4 (or LS 8), driver. Allan is a great pilot, but I repeat, he is at a huge disadvantage. I understand that he may have less than 5 hours on type (PW 5). Think about it! I certainly hope that Allan can put in a great performance, and meet (or exceed), the goals that he has set for himself in the upcoming comp. Which leads me to ask; "How are you going on meeting your own goals?" Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Paul Bart To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds >> So, as Tim has intimated, these are the reasons why Allan has changed classes and will now be flying World Class - I hope; albeit at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the field, given his inexperience in a PW 5. Hmmm, the fact that he did not have too much time in LS8 does not seems to be hurting him too much in the US right now :). Cheers Paul On 30 June 2012 20:32, wrote: Hi Ron, Have you made it to WA yet? Tut, tut, tut. Graft and corruption in Argentina; how can you possibly say that? In this case, I think that what you really meant to say was that a certain party has been granted a "special franchise" to handle the customs arrangements. I am sure you understand how this system works. Any pilot is quite free to use somebody else, but do keep in mind that if said pilot chooses the "alternate" route "Nothing can be guaranteed". I will leave it to your imagination to suppose which of the many dire possibilities that can happen, WILL actually happen. Do keep in mind too, that "importing the glider" is regarded as one exercise, and "exporting the (same) glider" is regarded as a totally different exercise - so (just for a start), read "pay double". A very level playing field (for all but the Argentinean competitors): As long as you are a millionaire pilot and can pay on demand without hurting too much, or fully funded by your country regardless of cost, you will not have a problem! I think that Tim will prove right on the numbers. I fell really sorry for Mike Durrant. He told me recently, that the true cost to be competitive in Standard Class in Argentina was of the order of A$50,000.00. This involved importing in, and then exporting out a competitive glider as NO glider was available for hire in the whole of South America, let alone in Argentina. Any competitive glider in SA would already be entered into the competition! Ron, I think the quanta of those "custom handling fees" you mentioned is about right, but maybe one of the people with first hand knowledge can confirm this? So, as Tim has intimated, these are the reasons why Allan has changed classes and will now be flying World Class - I hope; albeit at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the field, given his inexperience in a PW 5. I sure would like to know how Craig and Tobias are managing (if at all), these basically financial/logistical problems. It would seem that, as always, the flying is the easy(?) part of the exercise, but more so in this venture! Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds With 10,000 USD required as graft to get a glider thru customs I think the IGC should have cancelled the event and held it some where where corruption is not the name of the game. On 30 June 2012 11:37, Tim Shirley wrote: Hi Ron, As I understand it there have been significant problems with the costs and bureaucratic difficulties of getting gliders into the country. Apparently there are very few modern gliders available locally. I believe that Allan will now be flying in the World Class as it is possible for him to hire a PW5 in Argentina. Tobi Geiger, Craig Collings and Mike Durrant were in the original team with Allan - Mike has withdrawn because of the costs bu
Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds
Hi Ron, Have you made it to WA yet? Tut, tut, tut. Graft and corruption in Argentina; how can you possibly say that? In this case, I think that what you really meant to say was that a certain party has been granted a "special franchise" to handle the customs arrangements. I am sure you understand how this system works. Any pilot is quite free to use somebody else, but do keep in mind that if said pilot chooses the "alternate" route "Nothing can be guaranteed". I will leave it to your imagination to suppose which of the many dire possibilities that can happen, WILL actually happen. Do keep in mind too, that "importing the glider" is regarded as one exercise, and "exporting the (same) glider" is regarded as a totally different exercise - so (just for a start), read "pay double". A very level playing field (for all but the Argentinean competitors): As long as you are a millionaire pilot and can pay on demand without hurting too much, or fully funded by your country regardless of cost, you will not have a problem! I think that Tim will prove right on the numbers. I fell really sorry for Mike Durrant. He told me recently, that the true cost to be competitive in Standard Class in Argentina was of the order of A$50,000.00. This involved importing in, and then exporting out a competitive glider as NO glider was available for hire in the whole of South America, let alone in Argentina. Any competitive glider in SA would already be entered into the competition! Ron, I think the quanta of those "custom handling fees" you mentioned is about right, but maybe one of the people with first hand knowledge can confirm this? So, as Tim has intimated, these are the reasons why Allan has changed classes and will now be flying World Class - I hope; albeit at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the field, given his inexperience in a PW 5. I sure would like to know how Craig and Tobias are managing (if at all), these basically financial/logistical problems. It would seem that, as always, the flying is the easy(?) part of the exercise, but more so in this venture! Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Argentinian Worlds With 10,000 USD required as graft to get a glider thru customs I think the IGC should have cancelled the event and held it some where where corruption is not the name of the game. On 30 June 2012 11:37, Tim Shirley wrote: Hi Ron, As I understand it there have been significant problems with the costs and bureaucratic difficulties of getting gliders into the country. Apparently there are very few modern gliders available locally. I believe that Allan will now be flying in the World Class as it is possible for him to hire a PW5 in Argentina. Tobi Geiger, Craig Collings and Mike Durrant were in the original team with Allan - Mike has withdrawn because of the costs but I assume that Tobi and Craig are still attending. Both are in Club Class. This has not only affected Australia, there are many others around the world who are facing this problem. It may be a fairly small event. Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 30/06/2012 13:21, Ron Sanders wrote: ONLY Alan?? On 29 June 2012 20:04, Ian Mc Phee wrote: Think Allan Barnes will be there. Ian M On Jun 29, 2012 9:07 PM, "Ron Sanders" wrote: I was just wondering if Australia has any pilots at all attending the Argentinian Worlds in January 2013? ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring --
Re: [Aus-soaring] Garmin 12 xl repairs / GPS wanted
Stu, I looked into this a year or two back. I think there was somebody (not Garmin), in the US who offered do something (but very expensive -$100 plus?, and shipping on top of that) - otherwise bad luck old chap! If I remember correctly the factory was in Thailand. Units had to go back to the factory as the plastic cases were welded(?) together, and thus had to be cut open to get at the "guts". Once the problem was fixed, the case needed to be replaced. My guess is that in practice, a unit under warranty (or returned for service), was just junked, and a brand new replacement unit issued. At that time, if you looked on eBay they were regularly offered for sale with very low starting prices - about $20.00. You might check the current situation. However keep in mind that for any unit available, the internal battery must be getting near to the end of its life. Gary - Original Message - From: S S To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2012 7:09 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Garmin 12 xl repairs / GPS wanted Hi, Does anyone know who still repairs Garmin 12xl GPS units. Three or so years back I had link to a place that sent them to Korea or Hong Kong for internal battery replacement and/or repairs, this was basically a "change-over" service, but I can no longer find this site, and an internet search turns up one post in australia back in about 2004. Garmin website has no suggestion they support anything except warranty. As these units are still very handy and the user interface is simple and clear, I'd like get mine going. It has failed and when "On" button is held, it gives a warning " UPLOAD NOT PRESENT" and will not start. So that doesn't look like an internal battery problem. (yes it has had good batteries installed always, so the internal one was not drained) Otherwise, anyone with aGarmin 12xl or 12cx FOR SALE, please email me at ssm...@bigpond.com thanks Stu -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2178 / Virus Database: 2433/5065 - Release Date: 06/12/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider from Cape Town to Brisbane Australia
Peter, I am tempted to say put it into a container, launch the container into the Ocean, and start paddling. Probably just a little better than the proverbial barbed wire canoe, so make sure all your insurance covers are up to date! More realistically, what you need to do is to get in contact with a Customs Broker. I understand that there are about 7000 operating in Australia. How are you to find one who cares? Here are the contact details for Gary Brasher, who is one, and a highly experienced glider pilot to boot. For various reasons, Gary will NOT be able to help you directly, but I am certain he will be able to point you in the right direction. Ph 03 8368 5300, M 0418 103 432. In due course, please contact me offline and let me know the outcome. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: "Peter (PCS3)" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 10:11 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Glider from Cape Town to Brisbane Australia Hi All, Can anyone help getting a glider from Cape Town to Australia. The USA ones are not interested. PeterS ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5029 - Release Date: 05/28/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility?
Brian, Similar to my thoughts too! In addition we all know that the skyscape can have many colours, if we are talking about anything other than a perfectly cloudless day at high noon. Gary - Original Message - From: Brian Du Rieu To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 8:34 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility? What's the context of your question Adam? Ie. why just looking up as opposed to all backgrounds? Best regards, Brian DuRieu -- From: Adam Woolley ; To: ; Subject: [Aus-soaring] Best colour for visibility? Sent: Mon, May 21, 2012 8:55:07 AM G'day All, Curious to know, in your opinion (or backed up with evidence) what is the most visible colour seen looking from the ground to sky? SeeYou, WPP ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2176 / Virus Database: 2425/5012 - Release Date: 05/20/12 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA gliding licence
Nicely said Bernard.
Now let us see how it works in practice!
{On first glance it seems very clear and straightforward, with no "fine tuning"
required.This seems almost too good to be true.}
Gary
- Original Message -
From: ec...@internode.on.net
To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 12:04 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] CASA gliding licence
Good morning all
After initiating a GFA push towards an internationally recognised gliding
licence about 6 years ago I must say that I'm
delighted with the outcome.
Therefore I would like to take this opportunity to express my sincere
appreciation to all GFA office bearers involved.
Having closely followed the progress of this project I know only too well how
time consuming and at times frustrating
the negotiations with CASA have been. At long last we have arrived at a point
where suitably qualified Australian glider
pilots can obtain their GPC and exercise their previlleges in other parts of
the world for as long as their medical remains
valid.
The outcome is even better than expected and should be celebrated by all of
us. It is a triumpf of common sense and is
a huge step in the right direction. I am very grateful and see no reason for
playing down the achievements of our elected
representatives.
Kind regards from Germany
Bernard Eckey
--
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Sean, With respect, I posit that you totally miss PS 's point. What he is suggesting is that EVERY recreational aircraft (GA, RAAus, Gliding), be fitted with flarm. No flawed logic there! I earlier drew comparison with the mandating of compulsory use of seat belts in motor vehicles -somewhat controversial at the time; today an accepted fact. Mandate flarm, and immediately its benefits compound. Let me say that given the pace of technological development, I would expect that in the years to come , flarm will be regarded as a rather quaint chapter in collision avoidance. In the meantime it is the best we have, and it is bloody good system in comparison with nothing at all! Do however keep in mind the primary directive: LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT! Gary - Original Message - From: "Sean Jorgensen-Day" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 8:39 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Replace "Would" with "Could" and I'll agree with you. I seem to remember that one person on this list decided that they "would" be safer if they fitted a flarm to their aircraft. They forgot that the other aircraft needs to be fitted with a flarm to. Flawed logic! That said a better system would appear to be a compromise with similar systems being used across GA, RAAus and Gliding, good luck with that! -Original Message- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Stephenson (Internode) Sent: Sunday, 29 April 2012 5:48 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: Greetings If you look in the following database, http://aviation-safety.net/index.php which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to 1920's you will find very very very very few mid-airs. So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following only; 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. That's it. For the whole world. Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in that time, but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! and get a sense of proportion. regards Stu ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk
Peter, I think you have got to the nub of it, but I am somewhat surprised that you feel it necessary to bring this topic up again. Whilst Stu's figures are no doubt valid for actual strikes, the near misses hardly ever get reported, and therefore tallied up into (yet another), set of statistics. Unfortunately, (to my knowledge), there are no statistics for near misses, and more importantly, for glider pilot lives saved by flarm I do not know of ANY glider pilot who flies regularly (lets say 100 hours per year), over a few seasons, who has not experienced a near miss at least once in his total flying experience. However do keep in mind the proven fact that mid-airs are most likely to occur within a few km of a glider airfield, so it is a certainty that early solo pilots can be, and are, right in the firing line! Time and time again it has been said that the use of flarm is an adjunct only to good lookout. So let me iterate - LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT, LOOKOUT. Peter, you will certainly remember that the requirement for the mandatory use of flarms in GFA approved competitions, was almost solely driven by competition pilots in this country - against some bureaucratic resistance. Something like the resistance to the introduction of seat belts in motor cars, if you go that far back! In the wash up, seat belts save lives: Proven fact. In the wash up flarm saves lives: Proven fact. QED. Military combat situations aside, my feeling is that the use of flarm, has already (by far), saved more lives than those saved by the use of a parachute within the time frame following the introduction of flarm. So . how many lives has flarm saved? Let me say not mine ... Yet! ... and in the bigger picture, I hope never! Today I cannot conceive of flying without a working flarm! This would seem to me to be a very good place to acknowledge the debt that soaring pilots in this country owe to Nigel Andrews, who introduced the (Swiss developed), system to Australia. Thank you Nigel. Gary - Original Message - From: "Peter Stephenson (Internode)" To: Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 6:17 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mid Air collision risk Having been involved with two near hits in the last 10 years, both of which would have been prevented by a Flarm, it seems bloody stupid not have a 750 Euro unit not installed in *every* aircraft. PeterS On 22/04/2012 12:29 PM, S Smith wrote: Greetings If you look in the following database, http://aviation-safety.net/index.php which is a wiki and lists aircraft crashes around the world back to 1920's you will find very very very very few mid-airs. So far this year, for 896 recorded accidents there are the following only; 3 - military,training mid-airs2 were combat jets / 1 was helicopters 1- GA, R22 helicopter vs Beechcraft in USA - both landed safely. That's it. For the whole world. Now I accept this database is not a complete listing, and let's remember how many millions of flights there have been in that time, but as a percentage, just 1 GA mid-air out of 896 reported accidents in last 6 months - a pretty reasonable sample size. Maybe we should think about the causes of the other 890 too ! and get a sense of proportion. regards Stu ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident
Terry, Very well said. There is little else that needs saying here, other than there seems to be a certain degree of paranoia apparent in the comments you have gathered together and so nicely laid out below. I had intended to totally ignore them when they first appeared, but let me now make comment. The trace from the glider logger is not "missing". Let me spell it out: To the best of anyone's knowledge, THERE WAS NO TRACE! and as to WHO downloaded the flarm, I can say it was not Aladdin, and neither was it the "fairies at the bottom of the garden". Tim Shirley in an earlier post seemed to think that having the trace would not have contributed much to the investigation, and I agree. For the record, the log from the tug (it too was fitted with a flarm), IS available, and has been downloaded. I have not seen this trace, but I gather Tim's comment applies - apparently it does not contribute much. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident I have had concerns with the GFA being involved in investigations, it being both a regulator/standard setter and a quasi fraternal association. Conflict of interest? Position to protect? That is why I asked. For myself I would hope that the tenor of any involvement by the GFA would be covered by the media euphemism ".police are being assisted in their enquiries" and no higher. The reason the ATSB investigates aviation accidents is that it was felt that CASA or its predecessor couldn't impartially investigate as their own procedures and rules may have been a factor.. For this reason GFA shouldn't be investigating or "helping police with their enquiries". Now about that missing trace - *who* exactly tried retrieving it? See the problem? With the greatest of respect I do not share these concerns - at least in the volunteer sector. Your experiences may be different of course, and I respect that. Yes, one might suggest that there could be a conflict of interest in any club or GFA report or investigation of an accident, but either possibility rests very uncomfortably with my experience of gliding over nearly 46 years, and my perceptions regarding of the integrity of people who find their way to positions of experience and trust which could involve them dealing with the factual investigation and reporting of tragedies involving injury or death of their friends and fellow enthusiasts. Having been a GFA animal in an earlier lifetime, and in a role which intruded into this area, I saw nothing at any time which suggested that 'conflict of interest' was ever a consideration or factor in the analysis and discussion of those mishaps which sadly, we sometimes had to deal with. I have no reason to believe that it would be otherwise today. For mine, I would far sooner have people who know and understand gliding in particular and aviation in general investigating and reporting upon an accident, than have to wait for a police report which will almost certainly never be published, or a coroner's inquest some years later conducted by people for whom this may have been their first contact with the sport. Some of us already know from past experience the problems that this can cause. Finally I must say that I appreciate how difficult it is for Gary and others in his club in this situation. It is the most dreadful experience to suddenly be confronted with the reality that the sport we love so much and derive so much pleasure from can also dump us in the unthinkable tragedy we are now working through. Thank you Gary for what you have shared so far. I'm sure that everyone has enormous sympathy and empathy with you and your club members. A tragedy like this touches and moves us all. regards, Terry N -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident
Matt, Some good stuff there. Another thing that can work against a pilot is getting QNE and QNH confused - ie the pilot thinks he is higher than he actually is. I suspect that this has been a contributing factor in at least a couple of fatalities over the years. In the Ararat case the glider had a working flarm. My understanding is that the previous flights (on the day and earlier), were available, from the flarm after the crash, but for some reason a trace could not be recovered for the fatal flight. There is some conjecture that this may have been something inherent in flarm. There is no reason to suspect that the electrics in the glider had not been switched on for the last flight. For the sake of argument, let us assume that the flarm was powered up about 2 minutes before the all-out call, and the flight lasted 2 minutes, my maths says that there should have been about 60 recorded points (@ 4 sec intervals) available prior to impact, and maybe the flarm should have kept logging after the impact?? It was noted that the glider batteries were still in position and intact. Anyone got any thoughts as to why nothing was recorded? Gary - Original Message - From: Matt Gage To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident Gary, I totally agree with you sentiments and from what you posted earlier, I suspect that there would be no way of establishing the true cause of this accident, so any report would be unlikely to go beyond what you already posted - unless a mechanical failure was detected ! I've always thought that the reports I've seen on spinning accidents are pretty useless to learn from. They pretty much always start with being too slow and turning, and never focus on what led up to this - poor judgement of circuit, workload, fatigue, dehydration, other medical issue, instrument failure (I know of one such case where the pilot recovered at less than 100', hence able to determine this !), distraction (other aircraft, radio calls, etc) or a host of other possible out of ordinary events. It is impossible to determine which of these was a factor, making anything except a brief report useless, sadly making repeats inevitable as we can't train out the causes if we don't know what they are. I don't see what the ATSB would be able to add here. Having said all that, I have seen logger/flarm traces used on 3 occasions to help investigate totally different types of non-fatal accidents. The traces made it very clear what had happened and why in 2 of the cases, the 3rd was clearly poor judgement and showed actions completely different to what the pilot reported, but there was no obvious sign as to what the cause of the poor judgement was (although the pilot had spent considerable time above 10,000' with no oxygen, so hypoxia or dehydration may have been a factor). Matt On 25/04/2012, at 23:22 , wrote: Hi Mike, Mike Borgelt in particular, and All, Very nicely put. I note in particular your comment "...and the amount of knowledge gained from NZ investigations is not significantly higher than here." I suspect that you could widen "NZ" to "Worldwide". At the risk of seeming outrageous, let me say that to the ATSB and its previous incarnations, investigating glider accidents is, within the bigger picture of accident investigation, "just plain boring". How so? Let me explain. Unless I am missing something, there are basically only two factors to any gliding accident - mechanical failure, or pilot error( or incapacity). In an ultimate analysis, everything can be reduced to these two fundamentals. [There is no doubt that these fundamentals also apply to any accident scenario where human beings are involved.] Some pundit will no doubt be able to quote the "exact" figures for gliding, but in gliding accidents MUCH less than 10% of accidents can be attributed to mechanical failure. I will leave it to you to work out what the remainder is allotted to! ... However, do not jump to conclusions. In (unfortunately far too many cases), WHAT happened is quite easy to determine. WHY it happened cannot be determined at all! Nevertheless the fundamental premise that I have posited above must apply. Gliders, in comparison to say modern airliners are relatively simple machines - just ask the boys in South Africa who developed the JS1.They are reputed to have put in over 70,000 total hours to get to official Type Approval! So, in a few instances of gliding accidents there is a mechanical problem. As gliders are such simple machines, any mechanical failure should be relatively easy to determine. This does not require the input of the ATSB. As Wombat has said, the ATSB generally leaves it to either one of the other two entities who CAN legally investigate - the State Police, or the State C
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident
Hi Mike, Mike Borgelt in particular, and All, Very nicely put. I note in particular your comment "...and the amount of knowledge gained from NZ investigations is not significantly higher than here." I suspect that you could widen "NZ" to "Worldwide". At the risk of seeming outrageous, let me say that to the ATSB and its previous incarnations, investigating glider accidents is, within the bigger picture of accident investigation, "just plain boring". How so? Let me explain. Unless I am missing something, there are basically only two factors to any gliding accident - mechanical failure, or pilot error( or incapacity). In an ultimate analysis, everything can be reduced to these two fundamentals. [There is no doubt that these fundamentals also apply to any accident scenario where human beings are involved.] Some pundit will no doubt be able to quote the "exact" figures for gliding, but in gliding accidents MUCH less than 10% of accidents can be attributed to mechanical failure. I will leave it to you to work out what the remainder is allotted to! ... However, do not jump to conclusions. In (unfortunately far too many cases), WHAT happened is quite easy to determine. WHY it happened cannot be determined at all! Nevertheless the fundamental premise that I have posited above must apply. Gliders, in comparison to say modern airliners are relatively simple machines - just ask the boys in South Africa who developed the JS1.They are reputed to have put in over 70,000 total hours to get to official Type Approval! So, in a few instances of gliding accidents there is a mechanical problem. As gliders are such simple machines, any mechanical failure should be relatively easy to determine. This does not require the input of the ATSB. As Wombat has said, the ATSB generally leaves it to either one of the other two entities who CAN legally investigate - the State Police, or the State Coroner. If you are particularly observant, you will note that neither Wombat nor I, have mentioned the GFA in this context. Legally they do not have a role. In practice they are generally requested to supply expert advice to the Investigating Authority. Apart from anything else, this keeps the GFA "in the loop". [It is a digression, but it would seem in fact that these two bodies Police/Coroner co-operate. Maybe some legal eagle might be able to explain just what are the current arrangements, which may possibly vary from State to State. I posit that in theory each one of the 3 entities is able to carry out an independent investigation if it so chooses?] So much for mechanical failures. What about Pilot Error? Well pilots have been crashing, and in many cases dying, since man took to the air. Every possible means of crashing has been explored from that time until now. I suspect that all the possibilities for human error were exhausted long ago: Hence the lack of ATSB interest. As a result of these experiences the GFA produced a Manual of Standard Procedures. You are of course perfectly free to ignore the accumulated wisdom of ages, as set out in this document and taught by every accredited instructor, but you do so at your peril. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Cleaver To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2012 4:40 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident John and others The ATSB has a system for classifying accidents and incidents - see on their web site http://www.atsb.gov.au/about_atsb/investigation-procedures.aspx and http://www.atsb.gov.au/about_atsb/investigation-procedures.aspx#fn2 - the latter identifies what the various levels of investigation involve in terms of ATSB resources. Sport and recreational aviation accidents - even fatal ones - are almost never accorded a classification higher than 4, which means that after the recording of various factual information, the investigation is either carried out with one or two ATSB investigators or may be referred to another agency. In the case of a fatality this is often the police force in the State or Territory where the accident occurred - either for potential crime investigation or more likely for the Coroner to investigate. The Police/Coroner will usually seek the assistance of the GFA in the case of a gliding accident, but the GFA generally regards itself as under-resourced to carry out aviation accident investigations, as no funding is provided from Government sources to train and equip investigators.In any event the funding provided by Government to the ATSB is such that most accidents are not investigated in any level of detail, unless they involve passenger transport operations in large or medium capacity aircraft. The days when ATSB investigated sport aviation accidents to any greater extent than this ended over 20 years ago, and are not likely to return. While gliding fatalities are investigate
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident
Hi Mike, I have today found out that Leigh was referring to something else - namely the GFA President's job in a rather tongue-in-cheek fashion. However at the time of his death Maurice was still doing good work for the GFA, so my first line stands. It is never easy to replace dedicated volunteers, doing good work on behalf of us all. Re accident prevention, in this instance we will have to wait on the Coroner's report, which I would not expect any time soon. It may be able to pinpoint a problem, and if so we - that is the collective we - can then act. However I am not holding my breath on this one. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 6:40 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site/accident At 10:50 PM 22/04/2012, you wrote: Yeah. Maurice Little is dead. Want the job? I suggest that this thread be terminated NOW, unless you have something positive to contribute. Gary Well you terminated one thread here, without good cause. What's your problem? Have you guys figured out anything to prevent a recurrence of that dreadful accident? The initial circumstances sound pretty much the same as one at Beverley a few years ago but in that case nobody died although I believe there were injuries and the glider was badly damaged. At least it didn't spin and the problem was hitting a powerline after the rope broke. There were other problems but we don't talk about them so the same damn thing keeps happening. Mike Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site
Yeah. Maurice Little is dead. Want the job? I suggest that this thread be terminated NOW, unless you have something positive to contribute. Gary - Original Message - From: "Leigh Youdale" To: Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:22 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Site Doesn't work for me either. My theory is that the change of management has something to do with it. Regards, Leigh Youdale lmyoud...@me.com 0417210437 02 46580729 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Fibreglass 2 seat training glider
Hi All, As most of you know we (Grampians Soaring Club), lost a couple of members last weekend in a tragic accident. Our Puchacz 2 seater was also written off, and will need replacing, preferably (but not necessarily) with another Puchacz. Can anyone help here, or even suggest a possible lead? We are looking into the possibility of importing something, but obviously it would be far simpler (and quicker also), if we could find a suitable glider here in Australia. If you can help, please contact me off-line. Regards Gary Stevenson PS Funeral arrangements for Maurice have now been posted on the GFA home page. Alison's arrangements to follow shortly. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ararat - double fatality
Hi All, As an eye witness, I can say that (maybe unfortunately), for once these reports are basically correct! However there is no mystery here whatsoever. In order to stop rampant speculation, let me tell you that the glider was at times out of station for much of the tow, to the point where the weak link gave at maybe 150' (200 max?), AGL. I won't go into the fine details - that is for the Coroner to report on - but what then followed was the classic low level, spin/crash scenario. There is already a VERY comprehensive thread on this subject existent on this web site. I recommend that you reference this if you are not familiar with the material. In my opinion there is absolutely nothing new that can be learnt from this sad occurrence. However for the record, I point out that we MUST be for ever vigilant. As you might expect, I and my fellow club members are badly shook up about this. If you have any experience/imagination of such a situation, you may possibly understand the grief that the families of my (ex), fellow club members are now experiencing. I therefore request, and more, fully expect that you will respect their privacy, and further, not dwell on this, on this website, like ghouls, feasting on the dead. DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES CONTACT ME FOR FURTHER INFORMATION! Names of the pilots will be released, as will the Official Report, in due course. However, if you have been through this deathly experience, I would really appreciate you contacting me offline with any helpful advice whatsoever. Gary Stevenson Grampians Soaring Club Inc - Original Message - From: Christopher Mc Donnell To: Gliding mail list Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:18 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Ararat - double fatality http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=8444882 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-01/two-die-in-gliding-accident/3925952/?site=southwestvic -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Problem solving
Right on Mark! There was a property owner with a considerable land holding who lived about 20 k north of Horsham, Victoria. He hated gliders and glider pilots - my understanding is that he had a bad experience or two.Glider pilots new to Horsham were given a briefing on the location of this property, and advised to avoid it at all costs, if any possibility existed at all for an outlanding there. The effluxion of time fixed this problem - the owner eventually up and died! Remember ... all things pass! Now, did I ever tell you about the time .. Gary - Original Message - From: "Mark Newton" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Riding around in a header On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 02:41:25PM +1100, Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON wrote: > it would be a pity that the poor experiences of a few colour our > thinking about the majority of wonderful people we meet during > our adventures in the bush. Reminds me of a comment in an American forum I frequent fairly regularly: "We do not have a more litigious society. We have a society in which people are more fearful of litigation than they used to be." I think of that whenever I see bush lawyering in forums like this. Reading some of these accounts, anyone would think that gliding is hanging by a thread, one lawsuit away from being banned. Even though to my knowledge there has never been a single person in the history of the Commonwealth sued for trespass for outlanding a glider, and the tiny minority who've ever encountered a hostile reception have all got their gliders back. Relax, it's all good. - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider Insurance
Nicely put John! One other company that insures gliders in Australia is AssetInsure. I think it is Swiss based, but it is well represented in Oz. This company will not deal directly with the clients i.e. you and me, so you must deal with them through a broker. So give them a ring and find out which brokers are able to represent them in your area. In fact there is no reason at all to use a local broker, so try to get a full list of brokers Australia wide, but don't expect that they will give you any representative list readily. Persist! Once you have a comprehensive list - well maybe 5 or 6 - of brokers, it follows that you should shop around. I will give you some VERY valuable information here. No two brokers giving you a quote for insurance from the one company will give you the same bottom line figure for an identical set of circumstances. Some people might call this corruption, some might call it an arrangement, some might call it business competition, but the more general way that the industry thinks about this can be summed up by the one word "margin". As far as you and I are concerned it simply means that there are lots of variables, and "margin" means that the quoted price can be (and is), elastic. If you must use a particular broker for any reason, but that broker has not given you the best price, ask that broker to 'sharpen his pencil'. You may be pleasantly surprised with the result! In principle I can see no reason why you cannot insure your glider with a company that operates offshore, other than the fact that when you make a claim, they have to have someone available here who can do an assessment: Probably not worth their effort, which is also most likely to be the answer to the question that Ron raises. [Hey Ron now that you are retired, maybe you should go into the glider insurance industry!] These Insurance Companies can make the same or better profits elsewhere, with far less time and effort! Here are some points to keep very firmly in mind: a.. An Insurance company is NOT your friend. b.. They are only in the game to make money for their shareholders. c.. It is very possible that they will use a minor/any technicality to avoid paying out on your legitimate claim. Just one further thing. OAMPS have recently been going through some significant (but mainly staffing), changes, most likely for the better. I suggest that if you are already insured with them but don't like the premium asked, that you seek an alternative quote elsewhere (that is more competitive than you are presently paying), and then re-negotiate with OAMPS - or change insurer. Once again you may be surprised and pleased with the outcome. Good luck. Gary - Original Message - From: John Orton To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2012 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider Insurance An extract from a recent competition entry requirement document. 31st National Gliding Championships Insurance Requirements The insurance requirements for gliders entered in this event are as follows: • All competing aircraft must be insured for third party with an amount of not less than AUD$1,000,000. • Any policy that does not include the GFA standard competition endorsement must include the following endorsement: “ In respect of the aircraft competing in the 31st Australian Club and Sports Class National Gliding Competition at Benalla, 2nd – 13th January 2012, sanctioned by the Gliding Federation of Australia, this insurance is extended to include as jointly insured, the Gliding Federation of Australia, the Gliding Club of Victoria and any individual organiser or helper acting in connection with the sanctioned gliding competition.” • The above endorsement is automatically included in OAMPS policies. Entrants with OAMPS policies are asked at the time of entry to agree to allow OAMPS to confirm their insurance status with the organisers, so this should be done automatically. All others should ensure that they have proof of the above cover at time of registration. On 15 March 2012 19:45, Ron Sanders wrote: which begs the question why are they all leaving the glider sector?? And we are left with a monopoly?? On 15 March 2012 19:40, Andres Miramontes wrote: > I rang Aviation Insurance Brokers today asking for a quote and they told me > that they can't offer any more Insurance for Gliders, and as far as they > know Oamps is the only one available > > > -- > Andres > > ___ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soarin
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders - transponders - USA - new recommendation
Mark, That is very Zen, just like contemplating getting the clap ...eh the sound of a one handed clap. Gary - Original Message - From: "Mark Newton" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Cc: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 10:54 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders - transponders - USA - new recommendation On 23/02/2012, at 18:50, wom...@mail.netspeed.com.au wrote: They say 9 people have died in 20 years. I wonder how many have died by riding horses or bicycles without a helmet? Combine horses and lighter than air vehicles and ask how many people have died in horse drawn Zeppelins? - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders - transponders - USA - new recommendation
Talking of riding: When you think about it, participation in vigorous sex - especially for aged males - is probably far more dangerous, with or without either a horse or helmet . although I think "helmet" in this context has a slightly different meaning. Cheers Gary - Original Message - From: To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 7:20 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders - transponders - USA - new recommendation "Lighter-than-air vehicles" means balloons and airships in FAA parlance. This slip shows how well tghe Washington Examiner's sub-editors understand aviation. The comment about being effectively invisible to ATC applies to any aircraft that does not operate a transponder, whether glider, balloon, hang glider/paraglider or aeroplane (of any weight from 50 kg to 500 tons. They say 9 people have died in 20 years. I wonder how many have died by riding horses or bicycles without a helmet? Horses are far more dangerous! Wombat - Original Message - From: Scott Penrose To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliders - transponders - USA - new recommendation Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:13:00 +1100 On 23/02/2012, at 9:25 AM, Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: > http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/2012/02/faa-takes-baby-step-improve-glider-safety/301391 I assume when they say "lighter-than-air vehicles" they don't mean balloons. I think they mean gliders, which are heavier than air :-) Does anyone know how they are getting past the power requirements problem? Scott ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes
Hi Anthony, Plausible that he was over unlandable terrain without landing options . However your postulate raises the question as to how/why this could come about. Your last supposition is somewhat debatable, given that the image shows the glider in mature growth trees. in this situation my understanding of the general advice is to "land" the glider on the top of the tree canopy as slowly as possible under the prevailing circumstances.Perhaps someone who has actually done it, might like to make comment? Mike's suppositions are just as plausible. It will be interesting to get the official report. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Anthony Smith To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes Presumably he was over unlandable terrain and out of options. With a real risk of injury if he stayed in the cockpit, it was probably best to bail out. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of MIKE BORGELT Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012 8:21 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes Makes you wonder why he bailed out. Control system problem? Spin recovery? Mike At 09:46 PM 19/02/2012, you wrote: Airframe looks almost undamaged and intact. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-17088948 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 50th Multi Class Nationals at Narromine
Tom, What point are you trying to make re start points? My understanding is that the local rules say indeed, that a selection from (not all), the old start points as listed in the nominated database will be the ones used for this contest.Do you have a problem with that? Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 50th Multi Class Nationals at Narromine There is no airspace of concern in the task area? Start points in the turnpoint file are the old ones. Tom -- From: Ross McLean To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Thursday, 26 January 2012 1:07 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 50th Multi Class Nationals at Narromine Hi Chris The airspace file was provided to the organizers by a highly experienced competition pilot and the CD felt that the turnpoint file developed by Miles Gore-Brown previously gave the task setters a whole lot of flexibility to set tasks according to the weather variables. There are no real airspace issues tasking out of Narromine so it wasn’t felt necessary to assign a “playing field” as such in the airspace file but rather to provide a file that identified all the CTAFR and Danger Area airspace restrictions that are present locally and are generally only activated by NOTAM. There is really no Restricted Airspace in the realistic task areas out of Narromine. I have personally uploaded the airspace file to my iPaq running Winpilot and have found no problem with it at all. I am left wondering what your issue is in real terms. Regards, ROSS From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Chris Woolley Sent: Wednesday, 25 January 2012 4:35 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 50th Multi Class Nationals at Narromine Narromine Nationals Competitors, The Narromine Nationals web site has links to the turnpoint and airspace files (see below) which from my point of view have issues a.. For those WinPilot users there are issues with the official airspace file because it is too large. It looks like it covers the whole continent. b.. The official turnpoint file looks like one Miles put together for record flying out of Narromine many years ago. From my point of view it is not suitable in its current form. The joeyglide 2010 airspace and turnpoint files for Narromine look much better. http://soaringweb.org/TP/Narromine Regards Chris -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ross McLean Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2012 4:18 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: [Aus-soaring] 50th Multi Class Nationals at Narromine 50th MultiClass Nationals Preparation Finalised: We're All Set!! the organisation is all in place and we are ready to go. All sections of the website www.narromineglidingclub.com.au/Narromine50/MultiClass2012.html are fully functional. The rules, handicaps, turnpoints, airspace files are all on the site and are available for download. The website has the facility to upload your log files directly to the scorer from your web browser and you can check the scores online with a single click. The weather page is comprehensive and apart from the daily met briefing each day provided by the competition organizers you will be able to do your own forecasting well ahead of time. If you want to follow the progress of the pilots during the task each day you will be able to track them with the SPOT device directly from the website. If you haven’t registered for the competition yet there are still a few places available and you will be very welcome to join the fun. You can download the entry form from the website and email it back to the comp organizers. It promises to be a great Comp! We hope you enjoy it and have fun. ROSS ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http:/
[Aus-soaring] Underrated sites - Ararat
Hi All, Couldn't get a launch today, or earlier in the month on the 16 January. On the 16th the thermals started mid-morning and were VERY audible all day .They continued until late evening. This day was definitely a once a year day. Plenty of potential for an easy 1000 km, in almost any direction, even flying a barn door. I had some worries about my house departing its footings! Today was different but good: A later start for sure (1300-1400 hrs?), and possibly more care in selecting the tasking area than on the 16 th. However the temperature reached 40 degrees C at 1500 hours here in Ararat, and the day sure was booming. As on the 16th there were well developed Cu all over the sky. Cloudbase? Who knows? 10,000' plus? The (well developed), Cu were still there at 2030, so obviously the limiting factor re final glide was the onset of darkness. One of the joys of soaring is the late final glide through totally still air (and as a bonus, knowing that you will make it back to base). However I do not think that this would have applied today here in Western Victoria. The final glide would have been robust. >From Ararat it is quite possible to soar south to the Bass Straight coast, and >if one can pick up the Ottway Wave, carry on to Tasmania. This Strait crossing >challenge has yet to be met. Ararat is of course just 35 km from the Grampians Mountains. There is no doubt that a sufficiently determined pilot will set an Australian Height Record in the Grampian Wave.Heights to well over 30,000' have already been recorded. It is worth noting that as Ararat is at 1008' ASL that ultimate gain of height records can also be gained, relatively easily. I know of one case where wave has been encountered, and effectively used, off a winch launch. However this is exceptional, and release minimums can be expected to be about 4000' QNH. Visiting pilots are always welcome. Oxy refills are available on site. Check out the Grampians Soaring Club web site via the GFA web site link if you want to know more. Cheers, Gary___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Youngest 1000km pilot in AUS?
Hi Adam, "looks like I've got some catching up to do over the coming 25 years ..." ME TOO! Shall we just grow younger with each passing year, or in my case anyway, maybe that should read ...just regress? Good luck in "Round 2" at Narromine. See you there soon. I look forward to congratulating you on your own first 1000 km:... In a Cirrus 75?? Would that be a first in the world? I seem to recall that 1000 km has been done at least once in a Libelle (in Europe), using ridge, wave, and thermals. Must have been some flight ... as was S O'D's all those years ago! Yeah, Shane McCaffery is another from those days who STILL goes pretty well. SunrasiaGC once had (maybe still has) a Donga Award. I think Butch Buchanan (another ex SGC member) -as the Task Setter - was the first recipient. Does anybody have the details? Matthew Scutter, if you think Gawler is an underrated site, you have obviously never flown out of Mildura on a big day. There is nothing like it in Australia, and I suspect that only the two sites in Namibia and maybe one or two in SA can match or better it. Ask your fellow club member Terry Cubbley about his Mildura experiences if you want an eye opener. Gary - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:32 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Youngest 1000km pilot in AUS? Hello All, Just wondering what is the youngest age of an AUS pilot to complete a 1000km in AUS? Whether that be a FAI or OLC 1000km? Keen to know, Matthew Scutter managed the feat out of Gawler very recently, at age 19 (I think)! Well done Matthew, looks like I've got some catching up to do over the coming 25yrs... WPP - Sent from mBox Mail on my iPad http://www.fluentfactory.com/mboxmail ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Youngest 1000km pilot in AUS?
The flight is written up in AG - May 1982. Flown on 17 Jan 1982: Mildura -Lascelles-Ivanhoe- Broken Hill- Mildura - 1042 km. 1001 km actually achieved.Some "interesting" country overflown there! Take off at 10.35, landing (in a paddock 15 km north of Wentworth) at 9.00 pm. He flew 954 km (1025 task), a few days prior to this. O'Donnell was 18 years old at the time, with approx 670 hrs gliding time. For WPP, Matthew Scutter (and other newer members of the GFA), this is the same guy you flew against in the Benalla Nationals (Club Class), a couple of weeks ago. My congratulations to Matthew for his fine 1000 km flight. Perhaps the first of many?? Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: "Ruth Patching" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2012 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Youngest 1000km pilot in AUS? Might be Stephen O'Donnell from Sunraysia GC in an LS-3a about 30 years ago. Patch - Original Message - From: "Adam Woolley" To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Tuesday, 24 January, 2012 12:32:31 PM GMT +10:00 Canberra / Melbourne / Sydney Subject: [Aus-soaring] Youngest 1000km pilot in AUS? Hello All, Just wondering what is the youngest age of an AUS pilot to complete a 1000km in AUS? Whether that be a FAI or OLC 1000km? Keen to know, Matthew Scutter managed the feat out of Gawler very recently, at age 19 (I think)! Well done Matthew, looks like I've got some catching up to do over the coming 25yrs... WPP - Sent from mBox Mail on my iPad http://www.fluentfactory.com/mboxmail ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] SZD-48 Jantar main tyre
Thanks Macca. That is handy information. I suspected that there might be variations, between brands, so it is good to have this confirmed. Gary - Original Message - From: ian mcphee To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] SZD-48 Jantar main tyre Brands of 500X5 all vary~Goodyear Flight Custom 3 is much bigger than GY FC 2 and there are square and round sholders. Ian M -- From: John Orton Sent: Sunday, 16 October 2011 11:34 To: Aus-Soaring mail list Subject: [Aus-soaring] SZD-48 Jantar main tyre Can anyone please tell me the original tyre designation for a Jantar Std 2. I don't have ready access to the manuals at the moment. I think it was 350x135 like the original Blanik one. Yes I know most of them have been replaced with 5.00x5 tyres and that they ussually rub on the undercarriage legs. Regards, John Orton -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Details for gas struts ordered online
Tom, If you get no joy here, I am sure that David Sheridan at Gas Strut Engineering will be able to look after you, and custom build you something if necessary, without breaking the bank. Address is 11 Leo Street Fawkner Victoria 3060, ph 03 9357 2821, mobile 0408 334 411, email: gas-str...@bigpond.com Good luck. Gary - Original Message - From: "Grant Hudson" To: ; "Discussion of issues relating toSoaring in Australia." Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:14 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Details for gas struts ordered online UES in Adelaide Tom Sent from my iPhone On 11/10/2011, at 9:37, tom.wilk...@internode.on.net wrote: Morning All I seem to recall a recent or not so recent email about a web site where you could order gas struts to specific lengths, spring forces etc. Can anyone give me the name and recommend whether they are worth using? Many thanks Tom ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Diamond height flights at Bunyan
Stuart, As a matter of interest, can you please list the pilots and their aircraft? Was it a first (official), diamond climb for any of these pilots? Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tug noise Unreasonable for who? The Tug Pilots.? What's in it for them ;) Bunyan - First Light on the 23rd September 2011 was 5:27am, tugs were ready at 7:00am - first glider ready at 7:30am; 5 diamond height flights were flown that morning, all were back for lunch. Rule No 1 - You have to be there. Where were you? Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 Sent from iPad On 10/10/2011, at 20:26, "John McFarlane" wrote: Nothing wrong with that, apart from it being unreasonably early. If it’s at or after morning civil (nautical) twilight then it’s all good - if it wasn’t then I guess your watch needs adjusting as it appears to be wrong J From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Stuart & Kerri FERGUSON Sent: Monday, 10 October 2011 7:07 PM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tug noise But we have operated prior to 6am during Wave Camps Stuart FERGUSON Phone - 0419 797508 Sent from iPad On 10/10/2011, at 18:56, "John McFarlane" wrote: Other air navigation acts prevent flying gliders in NVFR – so I guess a launch isn’t really legal after 11 pm J From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher McDonnell Sent: Monday, 10 October 2011 5:17 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tug noise Airport curfews then??? -- On 10/10/2011 3:21 PM Simon Holding wrote: On the face of it, it appears we are OK in South Australia… CIVIL LIABILITY ACT 1936 - SECT 62 62—Exclusion of liability for trespass or nuisance (1) In this section— "Commonwealth Acts" means the Air Navigation Act 1920 (Cwth) and the Civil Aviation Act 1988 (Cwth); "land" includes a building, structure or other property on land (whether affixed to the land or not); "relevant air navigation regulations" means the regulations governing air navigation under the Commonwealth Acts including those regulations as they apply to air navigation in South Australia under the Air Navigation Act 1937 . (2) No action for trespass or nuisance arises by reason only of the flight of an aircraft over land, or the ordinary incidents of such a flight, if— (a) the aircraft flies at a height that is reasonable having regard to prevailing weather conditions and other relevant circumstances; and (b) the aircraft is operated in accordance with the relevant air navigation regulations. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher McDonnell Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011 4:54 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Tug noise This socks it to em'. http://www.news-journalonline.com/opinion/letters-to-the-editor/2011/10/09/airport-noise-is-fact-of-life.html ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Gliding Logo
Yeah, you are right, it does look like a Lotus Flower . but it is supposed to be a Waratah! Gary - Original Message - From: "Justin Couch" To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] NSW Gliding Logo On 25/09/2011 10:56 AM, Mal Bruce wrote: I have hopefully revamped them to original status state blue and added state flower. Errr... The state government might be rather annoyed that you've used their trademark Lotus Flower image. Better to use something that isn't trademarked, and preferably actually looks like our state emblem. -- Justin ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA
John, Your last 7 words sum the situation up nicely but possibly some genius may be able to turn this to advantage. As I recall the original research (and of course as we know from our own experience), the only useful positive finding was that the reflected flash of sunlight off a highly polished wing "was visible for miles" Unfortunately this situation really only occurred when a glider was circling. So it is not so much a matter of Mandrake and "smoke and mirrors", but more about mirrors! As John McFarlane rightly notes, everything else (at the time), was basically useless for an aircraft that could be "any colour you like, as long as that colour was white!" It is nice to see the CAA "giving it a go". Does anybody know what the allocated budget for the program is? In the meantime we are left with "lookout, lookout, lookout", and to a lesser (but invaluable) extent Flarm. Gary - Original Message - From: John Parncutt To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 9:47 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA LED lighting technology has come a long way in the past few years and is still rapidly improving. Looking at the specifications on website http://www.aeroleds.com/ the average current draw at about 1 Ampere per light is still rather large for a glider. I suspect the efficiency will continue to improve to the point where they will be a viable option, perhaps glider manufacturers would then include them in their design. BTW some of the cyclists LED lights are extremely bright especially when flashing but full daylight is hard to compete with! John Parncutt From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony Smith Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 9:22 PM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA Not necessarily. A range of high intensity LED strobes are coming into the market. An example is: http://www.aeroleds.com/ It may soon be feasible to run a pair of wing tip strobes off a second battery for aircraft operating in high traffic areas. From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of John McFarlane Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 8:07 AM To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA Back to Day-Glo wing tips and noses again - small wheel From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher Mc Donnell Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 7:24 AM To: Gliding mail list Subject: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA http://www.atc-network.com/News/39650/CAA-funds-visibility-trial -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Atmospheric Soundings
Thanks Mark, Like Peter T, I am using IE as my browser, Yeah, the error message mentioned Apache. Now working just fine. You must have re-tickled the program in just in the right spot: Thank goodness! I was not looking forward to brushing up on using Skew-T data off the University of Wyoming site. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Mark Newton To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Friday, September 16, 2011 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Australian Atmospheric Soundings On 16/09/2011, at 6:40 PM, Mandy and Peter Temple wrote: Internet Explorer returns a Bad Request error. It works fine with Chrome. Before everyone suggests upgrading to a better browser – I don’t have a choice at work. I think this is related to a workaround I put in a few weeks ago for a security fault found in Apache (CVE-2011-3192 for those who must know). Give it another try now and let me know how it goes. - mark I tried an internal modem,new...@atdot.dotat.org but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Australian Atmospheric Soundings
Anybody else having recent trouble connecting to this site? Anybody got Mark Newton's contact details? Please advise details offline. Regards, Gary___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] German version of my book
Congratulations Bernard. Well done. That is a great cover photo too. Can you please post up an English translation of Ingo's and Michael's words? Gary - Original Message - From: "Future Aviation" To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 9:20 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] German version of my book Good morning all Much to my surprise I have received a number of orders for the German version of my book from various customers in Australia. For everyone's information I'm enclosing the cover and the first few pages of the book. Right now I'm organising a shipment of books to down under and would like to hear from people interested in a copy. Shipping a single copy is prohibitively expensive given that the book has grown to 416 pages and the weight is now about 1.7 kg. For further information please contact me off line. Many thanks and kind regards Bernard Eckey PS: "Advanced Soaring Made Easy" is as good as sold out! ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding - Past and Future
Jeeze JR, stop dreaming up good ideas: You is likely to end up wit brain
damage! I suspect that even the Insurance Pros are having trouble making their
100% profit, from gliding related premiums. I think that Mike Borgelt
{greetings Mike} might agree that if the GFA became involved, then premiums
would have to at least double across the board for the GFA to make the same
profit as these pros!
Just joking. I really think the Secretariat does a great job - administration,
but NOT insurance - under difficult circumstances, and as I have said in recent
posts, the movement requires more government funds, to keep the movement at
least viable, and a LOT more government funding to ensure the vibrancy of the
sport.
I am certain that there are rugged individualistic cavemen (and cavewomen - but
maybe the cavewomen have more sense?), out there who think that they can "go
it alone". Now this might have been possible in "good old days" - say about
1850 - 14 November 1938 when the Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), was
established. From the latter date a few things began to change and they
continue to change right up to the present day. It is not a simple matter of
the goal posts having been moved (any good gliding caveman can cope with this),
but in fact the problem is that the game evolves and plays on an ever different
field, to the total bewilderment of our gliding caveman.
The 14/11/38, was when politics seriously entered into gliding. In 1949 some
glider pilots did something about it and formed the GFA.
Quoting directly from the current GFA website:
"The Gliding Federation of Australia (the 'GFA') was founded in 1949 when the
government moved to regulate, and dominate the sport. To counter that move, the
then scattered, almost fragmented, gliding community united to form a self
regulating national body which was offered to the Department of Civil Aviation
as an alternative to government control.
The GFA was established from the fundamental concept:-
"We have a philosophical, moral and ethical right to a very considerable degree
of freedom, from the modern trend to extend the powers to the State."We have an
absolute duty to fight for the freedom to be adventurous individuals in an age
of dull conformity if we so wish.
"We can plough our own furrow and if we make it straight enough the lack of any
need for interference will be so obvious that people who might feel a duty to
control such a thing will not bother with it".
(J.M. Iggulden, 1960) "
I am not entirely happy with what is written above, mainly because I suspect
that there was so much more. However that is quite a different subject.
As I type these words, it suddenly becomes apparent to me that here is a most
exciting story: That over and above its importance in the story of gliding in
this country, there are some aspects that have implications going well beyond
that - part of the shaping of the Australian Character if you like. In the USA
or the UK for example I suggest that researching and telling a similar story
would result in substantial funds being made available to an investigator, the
end result being a dissertation leading to the awarding of a PhD! There are
some pilots still alive today who were instrumental in forming the GFA, and
their stories, and the stories they can tell, need to be recorded, before it is
forever too late. Is there a journalist/historian out there up to this
challenge? Jack Iggulden himself was a powerful (and no doubt highly under
rated), novelist who wrote somewhat in the style of Hammond Innes, and Nevil
Shute, and was in my opinion at least their equal. I wonder if any person
attempting to tell the story of the founding of the GFA can equal Jack's style
in the telling of that story? Jack recently died, so goodby to a huge source of
information.
Since 1949 the movement has experienced changing fortunes. The present
situation is certainly much less than satisfactory, and trending downwards.
Keep in mind that the circumstances that led to the formation of the GFA, had
nothing directly to do with the promotion of the sport, or the funding of the
many aspects of gliding that exist today. However it is a given that to
understand the future, we must first understand the past.
Let me say again that any real solution to the current day problems demands
recognization and acceptance of the historical facts, and then trying for a
political solution. By definition a political solution requires the input of
Politicians. I suggest that the GFA Board "betta get drumming"! Failure to act
with less than ongoing total commitment here means that the Board will be
permanently out of a job.
Not Q.E.D. but R.I.P.!
Regards,
Gary
- Original Message -
From: JR
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF fee
Macca,
we of the south australian division of gliding, t
Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF fee
Cath,
Remember, that as things stand, this $30 fee gives the lucky AEF person 3 days
membership of the GFA.
I therefore suggest to you that it is a measure of YOUR club's nous, as to how
you market this. Hint - the more you winch launches you give, the cheaper (on
average), each individual flight becomes. You mention 2-3 flights. With better
planning and application I am sure this number could be substantially
increased, especially over the 2 days of a weekend. For example when there is
no lift, the AEF person does 6 winch launches @ $6 per launch plus glider hire
at 50 cents per minute with each flight lasting 5 minutes, my maths says that
costs total $81, which means you can also add at least $20 - $30 for your
trouble! Grand total $111. Not a big deal. {You might almost have an adept
person solo after this many flights! Ha ha.}
If there is lift around then there is no reason why the winch launch should
not give an equivalent flight time to an aerotow launch. However I suggest that
the club may have to be a bit selective in just which pilot is selected as PIC
to do any particular flight, depending on conditions - like I say; use a bit of
nous!
If this is all too hard, then you could of course stop your whingeing, and not
offer AEF's. You will be well aware that statistics show that AEF's serve
little purpose in attracting new members to a club.
However see my earlier post this evening, as to the real solution. With
adequate Federal funding to the GFA, the would be no requirement to charge more
than an acorn fee (say 5 cents) to your AEF person to join them up with the GFA
(This requirement for joining GFA is based on legal advice - but to my
knowledge has never been tested in court, so make of that what you will).
I suggest that you carefully read my earlier post, and think very carefully
about the many implications of my suggestions - and then do what you can to
bring about some positive change.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Catherine Conway
To: AUS Soaring
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2011 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] our magazine
I'm really disappointed with the $30 fee. Might be great for Aerotow clubs
charging AEFs off the street at $150-$200 a flight.For a club that charges
$6 launch and can do 5 min circuits if there is no lift and an AEF visitor
generally only manages 2-3 flights. This means they pay more to GFA than we
make for the flight! We try to convert ours to members so they are not
expensive flights.
I know the AAFC are also very upset with the rise (they are affected too).
Especially because they have other insurance cover. So what does this AEF fee
actually give them? I believe Scouts are not happy either.
What can we do? Must be some way to get the message across.
(Go the Kooka's JR - mines been flying lots of kids - including passenger
rated kids flying their friends. they don't seem to mind that its not new.
They still teach spins pretty well).
-Cath
On 07/09/2011, at 9:13 PM, Grant Davies wrote:
Agree the now $30 AEF fee is ridiculous. I have only been flying 4 years
and when I started students were $5.
Is there any explanation for this massive rise?
Or is it our GFA looking after our GFA, not the members and clubs?
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Re: [Aus-soaring] AEF fees, Funding, and the Demise of Gliding
Hi Macca, JR, & All,
A couple of very nice postings, that gives some perspective, on this vexing
subject.
Yeah the AEF fee to GFA is large, but I have never heard of any AEF person
bucking about this. I very much suspect that much of this is because they
really don't understand just what is going on here (despite a briefing by an
experienced club member, and "signing their life away")! Possibly they are
focused on the goal, which is of course as it should be - to go flying.
However if you bother to read the communications from the GFA, you will find
that this fee has been set on the basis that "somebody" has to pay for the
administration of our sport. In a nutshell under the current thinking, if the
AEF people don't contribute, then it is YOU who must pay more. It is all about
balancing the books.
In the very short term, Macca's response now leads me to suggest the following:
Keep the AEF fee the same, but increase the 3 day membership to 3 months. { I
suspect that the current number of 3 month memberships is VERY low.} I haven't
done any research here, but I bet that my proposal will not make the slightest
bit of difference to revenue collected, and JUST MAYBE it might get the
movement an additional member or ten which will of course actually increase
revenue a bit - but revenue raising is not - just to make it crystal clear -
the prime goal of the exercise.
However let me say once again, for about the hundredth time, that the basic
problem is political, and until the GFA board acknowledges this, and then sets
about seriously - lets start with say $500,000 seriously, expended on this over
the next few years - addressing this issue, this sport will continue to slide,
possibly into oblivion: Note again JR's comment about the "little clubs"
disappearing. This is of course followed by the "big clubs" disappearing: QED!
It is very interesting that just one member of the gliding movement, (let alone
anyone on the board), has ever bothered to make comment on my suggestion about
a political solution to the problem, and that one comment was not at all
favourable. Are GFA members so lacking in foresight that they cannot see the
problem? I find this hard to believe, but then again, I guess the Dodo did not
expect to become extinct either!
Gliding administration is growing increasingly complex - read increasingly more
expensive. The Federal Government doles out a pittance to the GFA to administer
the sport. If you have missed my earlier comment on the subject, let me
reiterate that the quantum paid is nothing less than a bloody insult. The GFA
Board must surely be aware of the issues I have raised. The question that then
arises is "Why does the GFA board not address these issues as their PRIME
MANDATE given that the very existence of the sport, let alone its vibrant
existence, depends on a satisfactory resolution"?
Gary Stevenson
- Original Message -
From: Ian Mc Phee
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2011 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] our magazine
>From my 45+years in gliding I personally believe people want to learn and
they want to learn NOW and time restraints are far more important than the
bright sleek glass ship in our president article. Take a look at RAAus 1+
members- People get to fly within 15 minutes arrival at airfield.
The $30 for AEF to GFA is sure a large - Personally I would not mind as much
if say people under 25 got it for $15. I do know GFA have a special deal with
AAFC so why not all young people. .Despite this huge initial charge and no
3months Student Membership of GFA I am very encouraged the number of young
people learning to fly in past say 18 month- there is a ray of hope out there.
And as for CASA - As old Jack Iggulden would say we know and understand
gliding CASA (or DCA as he always called them) do not
Just a thought
Ian McPhee
0428847642
On 7 September 2011 20:22, JR wrote:
Is'nt the new look magazine unreal,but I must say I was a little disturbed
by the Presidents article on our ageing glider fleet. For starters my club had
a plan to fly our blanik for at least its 3750 hours, which would have put
somewhere near 60,000 dollars in our bank account, but thats not to be, and it
would seem that, having had that taken away from us, we are now going to be
paying more to GFA for AEF's aswell, where will it all stop. And as for nice
new plastic gliders, I have seen some fairly shabby looking examples of them
aswell, and the maintenance for me doesnt change from plastic, wood or metal, I
do the same job on them all . It does'nt matter what its made from or how old
it is, an inspection is an inspection. And on the subject of ageing aircraft, I
noticed in CASA's booklet on ageing aircraft, GFA didnt get a mention, and we
are probably leading the field in old aircraft and how to maintain them,
something I
Re: [Aus-soaring] Alice Springs Challenges, and HWG
Re "old blokes" I am tempted to make a few comments. It is certain that when HWG started on the path that he blazed, he was in fact a "young bloke". We were once all "young blokes". So what differentiates HWG, from you and me? 1. He was totally dedicated and committed to achieving challenging flying goals that he set early in his life. [No doubt his vision expanded as he gained experience.] As a result he; 2. Worked for years, to gain the necessary flying knowledge and glider related skills; and 3. Worked for years to gain the financial security to ensure there were no financial impediments to threaten his vision. 3(a) ... or time impediments, like having to be back at work on a certain date. As the owner of a successful business, he was no doubt able (??) to empower his senior staff to competently run the business in his absence. [This is why "old" enters into the equation - in order to just get to a point where HWG was acknowledged as an important contributor to the sport, involved a huge expenditure of effort and the passage of many years.] 4. HWG ensured that he was superbly fit, both mentally and physically; and 5. No distractions; and 6. He set up a fully funded support team. It is likely that I have missed a few things here. I therefore welcome the forum member's informed comments. Gary - Original Message - From: To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." Cc: "Adam Woolley" Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Alice Springs Yep worth a close look. "Wings across the centre" filmed many years ago by the ABC featuring Hans Werner is a very good insight into the challenges. Shows what the old blokes can do. Peter Heath = G’day All, Does anyone here know for sure, when the most reliable time for weather is in Alice Springs? Thinking of organising a 2 week expedition/adventure there over the next two years, to be held in ~2 years time. SeeYou, WPP FaceBook: Adam Woolley’s Gliding Adventures ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Alice Springs
JR, Yes ...I agree ... but WPP is not a mind reader!. What about giving him some contact details for these people - I suggest off list - but with a posting to indicate that you have done this. If you don't have the details, please say so, as of course how to make contact these pilots will be WPP's next question. Nine words in your posting??? I suspect that Mr Webster (of dictionary fame), would turn in his grave! [Now's there's an opening that might give you lots of scope for reply.] Brian du Rieu's post seems to me to be very valuable. Simon Holding is/was a contributor to this forum. He is another pilot who can possibly help out WPP. I will try to play "marriage broker" here. [JR here is more fertile ground in which you might like to sow a few seeds - I am missing your recent lack of unique comment on this site!] Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: JR To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2011 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Alice Springs talk to Tom Bird, Kev Roberts or Bert Perssons -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps
Hi Mike and All, If you really want to buy one, I have HDY (15/16.6m configurations), with many extras ready to go, with a fresh Form 2, at around $60,000! Google Mike Maddock's site at Maddog Composites, and check out "Trading Post" for basic details and a photo. If this appeals, either email me or give me a call on 03 5352 4938. Regards, Gary - Original Message - From: Mike Durrant To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Cc: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring inAustralia. Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps Give me the ASW20 any day :-) Best Regards, Mike Durrant VH-FQF On 18/08/2011, at 11:26 AM, "Ross McLean" wrote: Hi Robert I note that the Nimbus 2 has a handicap equivalent to an ASW20. The Nimbus 4DM has the same handicap as an ASG29. ROSS From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hart Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2011 7:46 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps On 17/08/11 21:14, Michael Durrant wrote: Folk, Having now had the oppurtunity to fly a competitive Std class glider FQF (LS8) after many years campaigning GOD (19M Jantar) in the one class you could fly (Sports Class) with any hope of a competitive result, I would ask that if there is any review underway of Sports Class handicaps that based on empirical evidence alone, the older Open/19M class gliders handicaps in that class be reviewed. The low wing loading benefit on very weak days does not compensate for the loss incurred on the average competition day in Australia for these gliders given the way the polar drops off at normal cruising speed, especially given our current tasking approach which rarely, if ever, tests the book ends of the day when there might be some advantage for these gliders. Given LS8/18 (0.895 handicap) performance on both strong and weak days, the relative handicaps applied to the Jantar 19M (0.910), Nimbus 2 (.90) etc are a joke...based on my personal experience. As a pilot of such a 30 year old open class glider, I would say that my experience of the handicapping across the board (ballasted and unballasted) for older gliders needs review. As I understand it, the handicaps are related almost exclusively to wing loading. Whilst this may well be a reasonable idea when the aerodynamics of the wings are very similar, this is not so when we are talking about intergenerational changes in aerodynamics. Even a passing perusal of the polars of recent gliders shows very significant performance gains of gliders from the 1980s, which have significant performance gains over the early glass ships such as the Nimbus 2. If the aim of handicapping is to try to create a more level playing field to allow the skill of the pilot to shine through, then this issue needs to be addressed. If that is not the aim of the handicapping system could someone please explain why we have a handicapping system at all? -- Robert Hart ha...@interweft.com.au+61 (0)438 385 533 http://www.hart.wattle.id.au___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps, and other heavy subjects
Thanks Ross. Yeah winning the trophy is a heavy "cross" to bear, but I guess
Bruce will cope! Incidentally I liked Butch's alternative take on winning -
keep a low profile this year, and then "come from nowhere" and win. Lets hope
that Bruce, and other Aussies can repeat the performance next year, when ALL
the big boys will be there. I note most of the Europeans were keeping their
'hand in" at the European Championships in Lithuania. Of course totally
different conditions there, to those that can be expected in Uvalde, Texas next
year - hot to very hot, mostly good to great lift - if the thunderstorms hold
off, and sometimes very blue conditions, all of which should suit Bruce and
the rest of the Aussie team. Given that these conditions will actually
eventuate again in Uvalde next year, and the fact that the Aussies went to the
trouble of being in Uvalde this year and reportably learnt heaps, means that
they should have a preparation edge on the Europeans: and of course this will
be enough in itself to carry them over the line, if everything else is equal
!!??
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Ross McLean
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps
Hi Gary & Mike D
Thanks for your emails, very much appreciated. I have referred them to the
Handicap Committee for discussion and will respond back to this forum with
their thoughts and comments asap.
As Bruce is still returning from Uvalde (with a very heavy 18m 1st Place
winner’s trophy) it may take a few days but I will get back to you.
ROSS
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2011 8:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.; 'tom claffey'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps
Hi Ross,
I understand that the HC was reviewing handicaps, mainly to update and/or
correct anomalies resulting from incorrect original input data, new data,
manufacturer's changes to designs, and such like, rather than making radical
changes.
In a volunteer organisation, it is not surprising that such anomalies can and
do occur, and indeed you and your Committee (and those that have gone before
you), have generally done a good job under sometimes (no doubt), trying
circumstances.
I applaud your recent earlier request to aircraft owners to contact you, in
the case of seemingly erroneous handicaps. You, and fellow committee members
are not mind readers, after all!
Can you/Will you/Are you now in a position, to give us a detailed update, on
all the glider types considered in the review, and the changes (if any), that
the Committee decided to instigate, as a result of the review?
If the review still has some way to go, when do you expect the Committee's
findings and decisions to be made known?
I do appreciate that a written report to the Australian Gliding Fraternity
may involve some/a lot of work on your part, but I think that in the past, the
reasons for some (no doubt necessary), changes have not been explained - either
adequately, or at all, and led in some quarters, to ongoing resentment to
seemingly biased decisions, by the Committee. {Is it possible that Nigel is
possibly suggesting this - tongue in cheek of course! .Gasp!}
In this day and age transparency is everything.
I await your response with interest.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Ross McLean
To: 'tom claffey' ; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
Australia.'
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 95, Issue 49
Hi Tom
You are correct and no it hasn’t changed. The Handicap committee members
have currently:
· One JS1 – previously LS8, ASW 22, Ventus 2CX, ASW 19b. In all of
which he has won National Competitions. Just won the 18m pre-Worlds in an
ASG29. (I think it is the pilot not the a/c)
· One ASG29 - previously an ASW20 and a long history before that
· One LS4
· And one member has a fleet of 11 aircraft including Discus,
Discus 2, Ventus b 16.6, Duo Discus and Nimbus 4DM
I think there is enough cross manufacturer experience in that committee to
be able to produce a well balanced and knowledgable result.
Cheers, ROSS
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2011 1:45 PM
To: n.andr...@andrewselectronic.com.au; Discussion of issues relating to
Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 95, Issue 49
Really? I thought the handicap committee had an LS4, a JS1 and an
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cheat Trophy
Hi Mal, Please note my subject line! Re the Cheat Trophy, - given that you felt/still feel so strongly about this - I sent you an email some time back (as you well know), outlining some positive steps that you could take to legally and impartially resolve this issue (one way or another) - EVEN NOW - years after the event. As I outlined for you, there is a well defined procedure that you can follow, in an International Court of Arbitration. However, it would seem that you have not chosen to act on this advice. I am tempted, but will refrain from asking, "why not"? The majority of subscribers to this forum probably do not know what we are talking about, so let me make it clear - we are talking here about alleged cheating in a competition, where the alleged cheats "got away with it". Mal, whatever you ultimately choose to do -and that, increasingly looks like nothing - I STRONGLY request that you stop your bitching, innuendoes even, on this forum. Gary - Original Message - From: Mal Bruce To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 9:51 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Subject line ROSS learn how to post by editing the subject line? http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=subject+line&l=aus-soaring%40lists.internode.on.net ! http://www.mail-archive.com/aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net/msg01878.html Still awaiting the DUO cheat trophy -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Handicaps
Hi Ross,
I understand that the HC was reviewing handicaps, mainly to update and/or
correct anomalies resulting from incorrect original input data, new data,
manufacturer's changes to designs, and such like, rather than making radical
changes.
In a volunteer organisation, it is not surprising that such anomalies can and
do occur, and indeed you and your Committee (and those that have gone before
you), have generally done a good job under sometimes (no doubt), trying
circumstances.
I applaud your recent earlier request to aircraft owners to contact you, in the
case of seemingly erroneous handicaps. You, and fellow committee members are
not mind readers, after all!
Can you/Will you/Are you now in a position, to give us a detailed update, on
all the glider types considered in the review, and the changes (if any), that
the Committee decided to instigate, as a result of the review?
If the review still has some way to go, when do you expect the Committee's
findings and decisions to be made known?
I do appreciate that a written report to the Australian Gliding Fraternity may
involve some/a lot of work on your part, but I think that in the past, the
reasons for some (no doubt necessary), changes have not been explained - either
adequately, or at all, and led in some quarters, to ongoing resentment to
seemingly biased decisions, by the Committee. {Is it possible that Nigel is
possibly suggesting this - tongue in cheek of course! .Gasp!}
In this day and age transparency is everything.
I await your response with interest.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Ross McLean
To: 'tom claffey' ; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2011 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 95, Issue 49
Hi Tom
You are correct and no it hasn’t changed. The Handicap committee members
have currently:
· One JS1 – previously LS8, ASW 22, Ventus 2CX, ASW 19b. In all of
which he has won National Competitions. Just won the 18m pre-Worlds in an
ASG29. (I think it is the pilot not the a/c)
· One ASG29 - previously an ASW20 and a long history before that
· One LS4
· And one member has a fleet of 11 aircraft including Discus, Discus
2, Ventus b 16.6, Duo Discus and Nimbus 4DM
I think there is enough cross manufacturer experience in that committee to be
able to produce a well balanced and knowledgable result.
Cheers, ROSS
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of tom claffey
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2011 1:45 PM
To: n.andr...@andrewselectronic.com.au; Discussion of issues relating to
Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 95, Issue 49
Really? I thought the handicap committee had an LS4, a JS1 and an ASG29, has
it changed?
Tom
--
From: Nigel Andrews
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2011 1:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 95, Issue 49
What, no comment on adjusting the handicap to make it worthwhile for those
who don't have an ASG29 or JS1 to come to a comp and compete in their
Ventus's? I am sure the ASG29 owners would expect the same when the next
generation of 18 metre overtake them. Funny thing is the handicap committee
has two ASG owners. Leave it as it is and just have the same guys trying to
beat each other.
Nigel Andrews
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history
Hi Pam, Hadn't heard your story about holding down the camera button before: People are very inventive - and sometimes very stupid! I can see here, that it would not take this persons fellow competitors very long to work out that something was up, when they had a look at the published start times. "Hey, me and Cheat started only 20 seconds apart, but he is recorded as having started 14 minutes after me!" If the Ground Clock idea had been taken up seriously, there would of course be no start crew recording the time. As you say, prior to the use of GPS there still had to be a finish line crew, and sometimes there were nearly as many people involved here (usually the same people!), as at the start line. The invention of the camera clock did not change anything involving this aspect of the sport. I note you said "almost remember" re observers at the TP's. Arhh the "good old days". According to Ann Welch (AG June 1990) the first FAI world championship to use photographic turn point evidence was in 1970 at Marfa Texas. TP photography was also used there in the US Nationals in 1969. It was probably fun, but Give me "now", any old time. To paraphrase (more than a bit), the late Ed McKeogh of Benalla "If it was so good, why aren't we still doing it this way today?" Gary - Original Message - From: Pam Kurstjens To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history Very interesting indeed. I can remember using glider trailers (panel size as viewed from above, 9m x 2m) and moving them around in a complex pattern, once a minute, in a paddock adjacent to the start point feature (a bridge). But then, I can almost remember back to when they sent observers out to each turning point to lie on their backs and observe the gliders rounding the TPs. For the DDSC members reading this, there is (was?) a picture in the bunkhouse of a gliding competition grid launch in progress, and the 'ground clock' can be seen in the photo. Another thing just came to mind. Why have a ground clock, when the start and finish line observers were taking your start and finish times? It was to prevent the cheat going round the first TP before coming back and crossing (and photographing) the start line, then going to the second TP. When there was no time imprint on the photos, this was quite possible to do. Pam From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of gstev...@bigpond.com Sent: Thursday, 11 August 2011 12:02 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history Hi Terry, Vey interesting. I gave Max a call earlier tonight, and you are right! Are you aware that he has built two of these infernal devices? He told me building the Horsham one kept him amused for "weeks". His memories of the whole thing are now a bit vague, but he obviously remembers the bits that proved to be challenge - valves and controllers and such like, all built from scratch! He has no photos, and all the surviving components were consigned to the tip/recyclers about 12 months ago. It would seem that the scenario was much as you described! Max was the builder and Wally Wallington provided the design concepts - based on the Binary Theory you have referenced. Camera clocks were just appearing on the scene at this point in time, and Max intimated that they (and by inference, due to time required to phase out an older system), and the conventional start gate method were used for the actual scoring of the competition that year. Pick a date in the early eighties, rather than late seventies as you have suggested, for this competition. Max found that this particular project did not achieve its aim, due to the fact that the panels, as constructed, were too small, and thus could not be definitively photographed with the cameras in use at the time - Kodak Instamatics almost invariably - from 1000 m above terrain. The panels were square, and the size was either 2.5m or 3.0 m to a side - Max couldn't quite ping it off the top of his head! pun? groan! The material used for the panel cladding was mini-orb steel sheeting. Total cost to build the system was "about $1000.00". The 2nd Ground Clock that he built was for the WGC in Benalla. Once again Wally Wallington (who was the Contest Director), provided the concepts, and Max then did the work to put these concepts into reality. It would seem that this clock is basically as described in the April '83 edition of AG. Max told me that he provided a brief (one page?), description of the system in the WGC notes of the time . If anybody has a copy of the document, please do download it to this site . The essential changes he
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history
Hi Terry, I think for both clocks it was fully manual (as opposed to fully automatic), by the use of the Mk 1 eyeball and a watch set to official time. In the first case, on cue the appropriate valves would be manually opened or closed. In the second case the panel team would manually either run-out or close-up the appropriate panels. In the case of Benalla, Max said they did not always get the timing exactly on cue, so they kept a log of the differences from official time: Probably not more than 10 or 15 seconds max error, but this quanta is speculation on my part. Max did say that he got himself another job part way through the WGC at Benalla, so my guess is that the Ground Clock was not in practice required/essential to the needs of the organization. Just my guess though! Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:36 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history Thanks Gary, I was thinking about ringing Max myself to find out what happened. Apologies for the mistake in the time period; sometimes my forgettory works better than my memory :-[ And no, I didn't realise that there was a second version built A couple of us have been speculating what he actually used as the time and switching source for the whole project - i.e. what actually was FRED, because an worthwhile computer of that era was far from the portable devices we take for granted these days. There were enormous strides made in computer evolution during that era, so with it being in the early 80's rather then the late 70's as I earlier speculated, then something more 'commercial' might have been at the heart of the system.Did he enlarge on that at all ?? regards, Terry On 10/08/2011 11:31 PM, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: Hi Terry, Vey interesting. I gave Max a call earlier tonight, and you are right! Are you aware that he has built two of these infernal devices? He told me building the Horsham one kept him amused for "weeks". His memories of the whole thing are now a bit vague, but he obviously remembers the bits that proved to be challenge - valves and controllers and such like, all built from scratch! He has no photos, and all the surviving components were consigned to the tip/recyclers about 12 months ago. It would seem that the scenario was much as you described! Max was the builder and Wally Wallington provided the design concepts - based on the Binary Theory you have referenced. Camera clocks were just appearing on the scene at this point in time, and Max intimated that they (and by inference, due to time required to phase out an older system), and the conventional start gate method were used for the actual scoring of the competition that year. Pick a date in the early eighties, rather than late seventies as you have suggested, for this competition. Max found that this particular project did not achieve its aim, due to the fact that the panels, as constructed, were too small, and thus could not be definitively photographed with the cameras in use at the time - Kodak Instamatics almost invariably - from 1000 m above terrain. The panels were square, and the size was either 2.5m or 3.0 m to a side - Max couldn't quite ping it off the top of his head! pun? groan! The material used for the panel cladding was mini-orb steel sheeting. Total cost to build the system was "about $1000.00". The 2nd Ground Clock that he built was for the WGC in Benalla. Once again Wally Wallington (who was the Contest Director), provided the concepts, and Max then did the work to put these concepts into reality. It would seem that this clock is basically as described in the April '83 edition of AG. Max told me that he provided a brief (one page?), description of the system in the WGC notes of the time . If anybody has a copy of the document, please do download it to this site . The essential changes here over the Horsham design were the increase in panel size to 20 m X 3 m, and the construction of the panels out of fabric. These panels could be opened and closed by sliding them along supporting side wires. Three people could operate the system. Again, it would appear that in the reality, all start times were taken from the on board camera clocks, and the ground clock was not used, except in a back-up situation, such as when the camera clock had failed to record a start - a pilot finger problem always - he didn't press the right buttons - as a camera failure would mean no record at all, of anything - bad luck buddy - zero points for the day! I suggest that it would be very possible - almost a sure thing - to get grant money to build a replica of this device at the Gliding Museum (and a sure way of slowing down the kids after they have run the panel sheets in and out a few
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history
Hi Terry, Vey interesting. I gave Max a call earlier tonight, and you are right! Are you aware that he has built two of these infernal devices? He told me building the Horsham one kept him amused for "weeks". His memories of the whole thing are now a bit vague, but he obviously remembers the bits that proved to be challenge - valves and controllers and such like, all built from scratch! He has no photos, and all the surviving components were consigned to the tip/recyclers about 12 months ago. It would seem that the scenario was much as you described! Max was the builder and Wally Wallington provided the design concepts - based on the Binary Theory you have referenced. Camera clocks were just appearing on the scene at this point in time, and Max intimated that they (and by inference, due to time required to phase out an older system), and the conventional start gate method were used for the actual scoring of the competition that year. Pick a date in the early eighties, rather than late seventies as you have suggested, for this competition. Max found that this particular project did not achieve its aim, due to the fact that the panels, as constructed, were too small, and thus could not be definitively photographed with the cameras in use at the time - Kodak Instamatics almost invariably - from 1000 m above terrain. The panels were square, and the size was either 2.5m or 3.0 m to a side - Max couldn't quite ping it off the top of his head! pun? groan! The material used for the panel cladding was mini-orb steel sheeting. Total cost to build the system was "about $1000.00". The 2nd Ground Clock that he built was for the WGC in Benalla. Once again Wally Wallington (who was the Contest Director), provided the concepts, and Max then did the work to put these concepts into reality. It would seem that this clock is basically as described in the April '83 edition of AG. Max told me that he provided a brief (one page?), description of the system in the WGC notes of the time . If anybody has a copy of the document, please do download it to this site . The essential changes here over the Horsham design were the increase in panel size to 20 m X 3 m, and the construction of the panels out of fabric. These panels could be opened and closed by sliding them along supporting side wires. Three people could operate the system. Again, it would appear that in the reality, all start times were taken from the on board camera clocks, and the ground clock was not used, except in a back-up situation, such as when the camera clock had failed to record a start - a pilot finger problem always - he didn't press the right buttons - as a camera failure would mean no record at all, of anything - bad luck buddy - zero points for the day! I suggest that it would be very possible - almost a sure thing - to get grant money to build a replica of this device at the Gliding Museum (and a sure way of slowing down the kids after they have run the panel sheets in and out a few times), if the Museum Directors choose to take the idea onboard. I suspect that Max would be delighted to act as Project Director (if asked), but of course on the proviso that he was given total authority and control. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: Terry Neumann To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history Max Hedt invented and constructed a ground clock for use at Horsham Week comps back in the last century - (very late 70's perhaps??) As I recall - and it was back a while now - it used a system of displaying the time using binary notation. It was impressive in its complexity and brilliant in its design and construction. The system used a master electronic contraption (computer?) called FRED* to command (either open or close) a number of large blocks or frames of horizontal shutters like those in a venetian blind. This was achieved by a compressed air driven piston on each individual frame extending or retracting as commanded by FRED and swinging the shutters in much the same way as a swell box on a large pipe organ. If the shutters on a particular frame were closed, it appeared as a solid block and represented the binary digit 1. Blocks which were open appeared largely transparent from the air and represented the binary number 0. The whole contraption was large enough - several hundreds of square metres in area - to be photographed with sufficient definition from the start height, and later to be decoded as an actual starting time by the verifier, possibly Max himself or the late Geoff Champlain. To be at the site itself when the thing was in operation was a mind blowing experience with the petrol driven air compressor and FRED in the midst of the multiple frame assemblies supporting the shutters. Every so o
Re: [Aus-soaring] Ground Clocks - a little bit of history
Untitled DocumentFurther to Emilis's comments about the (lost?), history of the
sport, one of the oddities that emerged for a very brief time in the early
1980's, but was subsequently overtaken by the universal acceptance of camera
clocks and a bit later GPS (thank goodness), was the Ground Clock, that was
photographed from the air as the pilot made a start. I think the Italians were
the only people to ever seriously consider its use.
Prior to the development of camera clocks (carried in the glider), all start
times were recorded by ground crew, from observations made from the ground of
the glider as it went through the start gate, which was an "imaginary"
vertical square 1000 m wide, and 1000m high, with the base being aligned to say
the centreline of the main runway, or perhaps a nearby boundary fence of the
aerodrome. Observing, controlling the start run, acknowledging the start, and
recording this information was very labour intensive - the use of 6 (or more),
people at a major comp was by no means exceptional.
The main problem with the Ground Clock as proposed by the Italians was that it
too, was very labour intensive, as the component elements of the ground clock
were necessarily large in order to be satisfactorily seen and photographed from
the air. The only thing that really changed, was how the labour was
distributed. The Ground Clock's only real advantage was that a glider pilot did
not have to use a camera clock, because an ordinary camera (as used at the time
for photographing turnpoints) would do.
Think for a moment think about how YOU might go about designing such a device.
The actual derived design - which could indicate hours, minutes and seconds -
was quite ingenious, and even in part a bit quirky. {I seem to recall that one
design in part, called for the clearing of a circular track, close to, or
surrounding, the rest of the clock, upon which a bike rider rode at such a
speed, that it took exactly one minute to complete a circuit.The photographed
position of the bike rider on the track thus gave the time to the nearest
second! How would you like the job of bike rider, for say 2 hours on a stinking
hot Summer's day?}
For further information, see the article by the Italian, Pierluigi Duranti on
the Orologio (Italian for clock), which appeared in Gliding International
Dec/Jan 1982-83, and the article "Ground Clock Design", by Wally Wallington in
Australian Gliding, April 1983.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Adam Woolley
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tasking
I like how the words ‘may be’ were used, so I’ll let you get away with it!
Certainly wasn’t where it was aimed at all, as this ‘all AAT’ tasks non-sense
has been going on for years now at most comps around AUS. Everyone here can
take ‘all’ out of context if you like, but I think everyone knows generally
what has been happening. Even when the weather is as predictable as it’ll ever
be, an AAT is set with big circles!
Why were AAT’s designed in the first place? I thought it was for the CB/TS
days where a certain sector was so unpredictable, that they couldn’t have a
fixed turn-point that could guarantee the completion of a task. Then again,
there’s normally always a way – I’ll always remember (sadly only saw it from
the ground) the massive TS day @ the Narromine 2000 MCN! Pity there were no
airborne photo’s taken, would’ve been a magic flight :)
Go have a fly boys and girls, we’ll see who wins the lottery today and have a
talk about it later! *European pilots view point (when everyone is
competitive) from the JWGC’05 & SK WGC ‘10. Mine also.
Cheers,
WPP
I know that Ralph Henderson doesn't like fixed tasks, and this is probably
why they were not used much in the last Multiclass Nationals - this may be
where Adam's comments are mostly aimed. I hope that changes for Narromine.
From: Tim Shirley
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:57 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tasking
Rolf,
I agree. I think that we can have some fixed tasking without driving away
the lower performers. We may even surprise them with what can be achieved.
I know that Ralph Henderson doesn't like fixed tasks, and this is probably
why they were not used much in the last Multiclass Nationals - this may be
where Adam's comments are mostly aimed. I hope that changes for Narromine.
For Club Class, I realise that we could have re-introduced them and I'm
disappointed with myself for not taking the opportunity last time.
Benalla-Hay-Temora, perhaps?
Cheers
Tim
tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare
On 8/08/2011 12:16, rolf a. buelter wrote:
Tim,
Not advocating exclucive speed tasking, just bemoaning their almost
complete disappearance from nationals.
I for my
Re: [Aus-soaring] Cirrus 75B wrecks in AUS?
Hi WPP, Sorry, can't help you, but as a matter of interest, can you please describe to me exactly what a 15m or 16m stub is? Looks like S-H itself made only 11 of the 75B model gliders in Germany, but of course they subbied much of their work out too, to factories in other countries. If you are really serious about trying to track something down, suggest you contact Richard Cawsey in the UK, as a good starting point. He seems to maintain amazing records on all sorts of things relating to glider registrations (including some write-offs). My transfer last year of the D2 off the US register and onto the Aust register is listed. Google his name and Cirrus 75B and you are there. His email address is rich...@cawsey.fsnet.co.uk I wonder if he related to the Richard Cawsey involved in the infamous Tocumwal Sportsavia sell-off? Good luck - I think you will need it! Gary - Original Message - From: Adam Woolley To: AUS Soaring Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 8:25 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Cirrus 75B wrecks in AUS? G’day all, Just wondering if there’s any Cirrus 75B (16m version) wrecks around the country, or someone who is willing to part with their 15m or 16m stubs? Regards, Adam Woolley -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA Website (iMIS)
No problems. I am using the same browser as yourself. Gary - Original Message - From: Kevin Rodda To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] GFA Website (iMIS) I have consistently had problems using the GFA website since it was changed to the new format. Incredibly slow response times when logging in and also when moving from page to page once logged in ... I usually just give up in frustration. Am being told by the GFA Office that they are not aware of other members experiencing this problem. Am I the only one? Regards, Kevin Rodda PS: I am using Internet Explorer 8 as my browser. -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Tasking
Untitled DocumentRolf, I am almost certain that the possibility of being able to set fixed tasks (and run tasks), as well as AAT's is contained in the general rules. Tasking can of course be modified by the local rules, which I think is what happened last time. Even if all tasking options are open, it still comes down to what the task setters actually choose to do. Anyway, Tim has assured us that set tasks are an option at Benalla in 2012. Yeah, the other main reason for splitting the field into two groups, was to give the task setters more options, and especially the option of setting a longer (and perhaps a reasonably different, consistent with safety) task for the first launched group. As I rather dimly recall, this was not in fact much done (not done at all?), last season, but as you well know, the weather was generally poor, and this was the limiting factor, causing postponement of the launch day after day, until there was only a very small window of opportunity, with most pilots (on most days), in the second group at least, starting as soon as the gate opened. Gary - Original Message - From: rolf a. buelter To: aus soaring Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 11:20 AM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Tasking (was Team flying - what is it worth?) That is a whole new discussion which we haven't had yet. Am in full agreement with WPP. 3 or 4 years back we split into club and sports class, one of the reasons cited was the impossibility to task fairly over such a wide handicap range. Since then we not only dropped fixed tasks completely from the club and sportsclass nationals but they almost disappeared form multiclass as well. With WPP's words - pathetic. Rolf -- From: aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 11:01:07 +1000 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? My first ever, competition fixed task was in the UK just prior to starting the world championships – how pathetic! Bring back the days when pilots brought along their own crews and had at least 75% fixed tasks in Aussie comps :) WPP -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
Hi Rolf, I see that you entirely missed the point of this post. The heading should have given you your first clue. To my knowledge, there has not been ANY discussion on trying to put some numbers on the value of team flying. So .. do YOU think that good team flying (on average), gives the team an advantage over an individual pilot? If so, by how much? Is it even possible to specify a number range? Obviously there are lots of variables, and as Tom has already implied, just one of these is the relative skill level of every pilot in a particular contest, be they team flyers or not. Under what conditions is team flying most advantageous? When is it least advantageous? Do you think that the location of a site will give some individual pilots an advantage, or on the other hand can site location advantage a team, more so than an individual? WPP has already made the interesting point that the British Juniors are changing the way they intend to tackle the current world contest, but of course this has nothing to do with trying to come up with a set (or sets?), of numbers. Gary - Original Message - From: rolf a. buelter To: aus soaring ; to...@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? We've had this discussion for years ad nauseam. As no new facts emerged there is no use at all to have the discussion again. The current rehash serves only those who want to re-read their own arguments of the past. I'm quite sure there is a history funtion somewhere which can be used for that purpose without annoying all others. Rolf -- From: gstev...@bigpond.com To: to...@yahoo.com; aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2011 01:22:02 +1000 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? Hi Tom, Good to hear from you. Re your earlier post on Mac and the Diana 2, my understanding of this situation is that landing problems are about par for the course! Take-offs too in this ship are also supposed to be quite interesting, probably for exactly the same reasons you alluded to. I am somewhat surprised that the production factory is still going - if indeed it still is! Apart from anything else the owner BB seems to have (or had? - does the leopard change its spots?), an attitude problem. I have had some slight dealings with him in the recent past. My experience was not that his attitude was the problem, but the fact that the man would mostly not answer any straight question, posed to him. Re your response to my latest post - it is an interesting aside. Do you really expect these two day winners to be on the podium at the end of the contest? What is your real belief re team flying? If you think team flying improves the chance of a team member winning, don't be a wooze - answer my question. Say hi to Kerrie for me. Have fun. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? The two winners at Uvalde yesterday did not team fly! :] From: "gstev...@bigpond.com" To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, 7 August 2011 11:59 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? Hallo All, Preamble For years, there has been robust debate in this country, on the subject of team flying in Australian Competitions. Some pilots are strongly for it, some strongly against it, and some are ambivalent. Some pilots have been known to change their viewpoint, when their own circumstances change! It is generally acknowledged, that in any modern competition, where the practice of team flying is allowed, (such as a World Championship), GOOD team flying is essential if any team wants to get at least one of their members onto the podium. I have used the word "GOOD" quite advisably, because, like everything else in gliding, it takes considerable time and practice to perfect the necessary skills. That is of course the rub. How can this practice be carried out? This is not the question here, but Allan Barnes, a member of the DDSC has seriously considered this particular question and offered some suggestions. In passing, I suggest here, that if the team changes, then it is probably necessary to return to the basics, at least in the short term, to develop the essential trust and rapport that is required in this exercise. I would expect that two pilots who are experienced team flyers (but not with each other), can far more
Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
Hi Tom, Good to hear from you. Re your earlier post on Mac and the Diana 2, my understanding of this situation is that landing problems are about par for the course! Take-offs too in this ship are also supposed to be quite interesting, probably for exactly the same reasons you alluded to. I am somewhat surprised that the production factory is still going - if indeed it still is! Apart from anything else the owner BB seems to have (or had? - does the leopard change its spots?), an attitude problem. I have had some slight dealings with him in the recent past. My experience was not that his attitude was the problem, but the fact that the man would mostly not answer any straight question, posed to him. Re your response to my latest post - it is an interesting aside. Do you really expect these two day winners to be on the podium at the end of the contest? What is your real belief re team flying? If you think team flying improves the chance of a team member winning, don't be a wooze - answer my question. Say hi to Kerrie for me. Have fun. Cheers, Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? The two winners at Uvalde yesterday did not team fly! :] -- From: "gstev...@bigpond.com" To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Sunday, 7 August 2011 11:59 PM Subject: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? Hallo All, Preamble For years, there has been robust debate in this country, on the subject of team flying in Australian Competitions. Some pilots are strongly for it, some strongly against it, and some are ambivalent. Some pilots have been known to change their viewpoint, when their own circumstances change! It is generally acknowledged, that in any modern competition, where the practice of team flying is allowed, (such as a World Championship), GOOD team flying is essential if any team wants to get at least one of their members onto the podium. I have used the word "GOOD" quite advisably, because, like everything else in gliding, it takes considerable time and practice to perfect the necessary skills. That is of course the rub. How can this practice be carried out? This is not the question here, but Allan Barnes, a member of the DDSC has seriously considered this particular question and offered some suggestions. In passing, I suggest here, that if the team changes, then it is probably necessary to return to the basics, at least in the short term, to develop the essential trust and rapport that is required in this exercise. I would expect that two pilots who are experienced team flyers (but not with each other), can far more quickly become a new team, than a team made up of any other combination such as: Two pilots who have never team flown at all; a team of one experienced team flyer, and one pilot who has never team flown before. A further interesting question is "what is the ideal team size"? My own suspicion is that to a limited extent, more is better. In the world of professional bike racing, the team size is 9 riders. In gliding at World level, I think 3 pilots per class is the official limit, so I suspect that the possibilities of a team larger than 3 has never been explored! Can perhaps some research dollars be obtained (to the greater good of Oz gliding, and indeed World gliding), to explore this subject? I am certain that there is the odd PhD or two that could be obtained here, and the pilots in the studies would of course have to undergo maybe hundreds of hours of team flying in the interest of this research! What a bugger! ** The Question For the sake of this post, assume that we have a team of two pilots who are competent in team flying. They are pitted against many individual pilots. As outlined above, we know that there is an advantage in team flying. So the question is "what do YOU think is the percentage advantage of the team flyers over an individual pilot under 'normal' Australian Summer conditions." As every exam paper demands - state why you formed this viewpoint. Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth?
Hallo All, Preamble For years, there has been robust debate in this country, on the subject of team flying in Australian Competitions. Some pilots are strongly for it, some strongly against it, and some are ambivalent. Some pilots have been known to change their viewpoint, when their own circumstances change! It is generally acknowledged, that in any modern competition, where the practice of team flying is allowed, (such as a World Championship), GOOD team flying is essential if any team wants to get at least one of their members onto the podium. I have used the word "GOOD" quite advisably, because, like everything else in gliding, it takes considerable time and practice to perfect the necessary skills. That is of course the rub. How can this practice be carried out? This is not the question here, but Allan Barnes, a member of the DDSC has seriously considered this particular question and offered some suggestions. In passing, I suggest here, that if the team changes, then it is probably necessary to return to the basics, at least in the short term, to develop the essential trust and rapport that is required in this exercise. I would expect that two pilots who are experienced team flyers (but not with each other), can far more quickly become a new team, than a team made up of any other combination such as: Two pilots who have never team flown at all; a team of one experienced team flyer, and one pilot who has never team flown before. A further interesting question is "what is the ideal team size"? My own suspicion is that to a limited extent, more is better. In the world of professional bike racing, the team size is 9 riders. In gliding at World level, I think 3 pilots per class is the official limit, so I suspect that the possibilities of a team larger than 3 has never been explored! Can perhaps some research dollars be obtained (to the greater good of Oz gliding, and indeed World gliding), to explore this subject? I am certain that there is the odd PhD or two that could be obtained here, and the pilots in the studies would of course have to undergo maybe hundreds of hours of team flying in the interest of this research! What a bugger! ** The Question For the sake of this post, assume that we have a team of two pilots who are competent in team flying. They are pitted against many individual pilots. As outlined above, we know that there is an advantage in team flying. So the question is "what do YOU think is the percentage advantage of the team flyers over an individual pilot under 'normal' Australian Summer conditions." As every exam paper demands - state why you formed this viewpoint. Regards, Gary ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] 'A' model gliders
Spot on. Re parachutes; not only picked, but also packed. Good riggers can alter the way the parachute material is placed in the pack to make you more comfortable. Gary - Original Message - From: tom claffey To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 11:53 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 'A' model gliders Ditto to what Bruce said : Absolute performance the "a" Schempp is a bit better - IF you fit comfortably. Here in Uvalde Lisa Trotter [who is small] fit fine but cannot reach things in cockpit - you need to be small but with long arms! Talked to a Ventus 2bx owner last night who got the 2x version because it is a longer cockpit [I presume like 2c] and he is 6'6". It comes down to the designer, Klaus Holighaus made the "a" to fit himself and the "b" to fit everyone. Gerhard Waibel's cockpits fit the more "rotund", as do Grob. LS are in between. Having spent 5 days trying different cusions etc to get comfortable all I can say is comfort counts, parachutes need to be picked with the glider in mind as well. Tom -- From: Bruce Campbell To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Saturday, 6 August 2011 10:57 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 'A' model gliders Tim, Delta one goes better than any B I came across. ;-) Mart, Depends who you ask. The Discus A has 80mm more wingspan than a Discus B - yes both are 15m wingspan, but the A fuselage has 80mm less width. Plus I think that the bottom fairing between the wing lower surface and the fuse is more aerodynamic - but I was an A owner of course. B owners reckon that the B fuse was more aero despite its girth. Just ask Tom C :-) The truth is that like all gliders, both are a compromise. The A trades off cockpit space for performance - real or illusional. The B (and C's in the current generation of Schempp gliders) potentially trades off performance for comfort - but it is also more flexible (more pilots can fly it) and hence generally has better resale value. Whatever the difference really is, it is probably less than the variation between gliders that come out of the same molds. I have flown great B's - and ordinary B's. The good ones would be competitive with most A's - you'd need a good A to notice a difference. There are a series of mods to create more space in A cockpits - modified seat pans (after market) to (I've been told) moving the forward bulkhead forward about 50mm. I would enjoy comparing a new Ventus2ax or 2cax (to the Discus A) but then who wouldn't! BTW, I think that the LS8 cockpit is halfway in between the two Schempp versions. Cheers Bruce On 6 August 2011 18:12, Tim Shirley wrote: Hi all, It is hard to imagine that any difference in glide angle between an A or B model (which is tiny if it is there at all) would cancel out differences in pilot skill and performance. But it is true that the best pilots will seek every advantage no matter how small so perhaps that is the reason they chose A models. It may even be just psyching the opposition. I recall years ago a Jantar owner painted "Jantar 4" on his glider just before a competition. There is no such thing, but it sure had the Jantar 2 and 3 pilots wondering. That said, my Discus A fits me perfectly. And of course it goes heaps better than a B... Size does matter... :) Cheers Tim tra dire e fare c'è mezzo il mare On 6/08/2011 5:30, Mart Bosman wrote: Hi all, I have a question that might have been asked before but I haven't found it. How come that there are no minimum cockpit sizes for gliders? I am following the euros and again the gliders with a small cockpit that apparently have about half a point better glide are leading. For yesterday the first 8 are an 'a' model. (or standard small) To me it looks unfair that your statue gives you a competition advantage. Thanks, Mart. http://egc2011.pociunai.lt/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=132 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring --
