[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Family size survey

[David Perry]

Some disagreement, even among descendants about exactly how many - for 
instance, one or two stillborn.  The descendants claim as many as 24.  My 
research finds 19 for sure.  These children are my half 1st cousins, once 
removed.  That side of the family and my side never got along - too bad 
there were so many of them.  

On Monday, September 23, 2019 at 6:34:46 PM UTC-7, Cheri Mello wrote:
>
> Can you all let me know the largest Azorean family you have in your 
> database? I prefer the late 1800s onwards, and it must be from ONE wife. 
> All kids, whether or not they lived to adulthood.
>
> Example: 14 kids from ONE wife, includes one set of twins. Kids born from 
> 1890-1913.
>
> Thanks, Cheri
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help with Jacinta maternal grandmother's name

[David Perry]

These folks, Andre and Anna are my grandparents.  Their son, Jose is my 
ancestor.  Next in line, another Jose followed by yet another Jose and 
finally, my grandmother Francesca.
David

On Thursday, March 21, 2019 at 4:55:45 PM UTC-7, leonor@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Hi all! Thanks to Cheri, I think I am back on the right track. Can someone 
> else me with the maternal grandmother's last name, I see Felicia ().
>
>
> http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-LG-ROSARIO-B-1789-1797/SMG-LG-ROSARIO-B-1789-1797_item1/P324.html
>
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: The Vital family from Lagoa, Sao Miguel to Wialua Hawall in 1883.

[David Perry]

I can provide some information on the Vital name in Lagoa.  Many Vital 
folks were at one time do Rego Baldaia way back in the 16th and 17th 
centuries.  Most of them became simply do Rego in the 1700s but there soon 
became so many in Lagoa (mostly Rosario parish) that many added a second 
name to the do Rego name, I'm guessing to distinguish one do Rego clan from 
another.  After all, with every first son having the name Manoel, there 
would be dozens of Manoel do Regos in town at any given time.  Some of the 
second names added were Coelho (my ancestors), Vital, Borges and others 
less common.  It's unclear to me where these second names came from since 
Coelho means rabbit in Portuguese.  Subsequent generations took one name or 
the other upon emigration.  For instance, in my family I have cousins using 
the name Rego and others using the name Coelho.  Hope this is useful.
David  

On Sunday, May 6, 2018 at 3:03:26 PM UTC-7, Tenderwah wrote:

> If there is anyone out there who recognizes the last name. My great 
> grandfathers first name was Manual and he would have traveled with his 
> sons, and worked at a sugar cane plantation. My grandfather Manual Jr. 
> ,when he left Hawaii went on to Fall River/ New Bedford where he met my 
> grandmother Mary Medieras, and eventually moved to Oakland California 
> around 1915. What I am trying to do is find links to the Azores in whatever 
> ways there are.

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Looking for our ancestors who migrated from Azore Islands to Hawaii

[David Perry]

In support of John Rapozo's comments, family lore has it that my great 
grandfather was a "big shot" in Lagoa, Sao Miguel and in fact many records 
have "Barao" after his name.  His father was a fisherman and there are no 
"Donas" or "Baraos" anywhere in the earlier records.  I suspect he took the 
title to enhance his standing.  For some reason he made a sudden departure 
out of town taking his family with him.  Later birth records for more 
children have him working in a vineyard with no mention of Barao.   
David Perry 

On Sunday, February 12, 2017 at 12:39:37 PM UTC-8, Reposo De Costa wrote:

> We are researching our ancestors Manuel Reposo/Reposa DeCosta from the 
> Azore Islands who migrated to the Hawaiian Islands. Head of household was 
> Manuel, wife's name was Maria. Our grandmother Maria Raposa/Raposa Decosta 
> was born in around 1898 in Hawaii.  Our grandmother had a family crest 
> which indicated that my uncle was a Duke, my grandmother died and we could 
> not find the papers/crest.  We are wondering what royal family are we 
> related to.  The family crest was passed down to our Uncle, who then was 
> called a Duke.  Any information on this would be much appreciated.  Thank 
> you.
>
> Christine
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Dual Citizenship

[David Perry]

Marilyn, the whole process took place in 2013 and ended for me in December of 
that year.  My son applied a few months later in 2014.David 

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 3:53 PM, Marilyn Thompson <mari...@jmtmlt.com> 
wrote:
 

 David how recent was this that you and your son applied?My grandmother was 
born on Sao Jorge and came to the US. She married in California, her 2 children 
were born there as was I a granddaughter.

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 4:03 PM, David Perry <djperr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Phil, my son used my citizenship paper trail and my confirmation of citizenship 
to secure his.  When he went to the NY Consulate before I applied, he was given 
very little encouragement and was told he needed to learn the language even 
though his grandfather was born in the Azores.  After I got my citizenship 
through the San Francisco Consulate with no requirements except the paper 
trail, he took that information to the same consulate and was greeted with open 
arms with no language requirement and had his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David 

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:26 PM, Phil Lopes <lopesp...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 David,I am curious, did your son secure citizenship as a result of your 
citizenship or did he have to go through the same process as you did?Thanks.
Phil Lopes 
  
  

   
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 11:45 AM, David Perry <djperr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I too had a stumbling block - my father had changed his last name from Pereira 
to Perry.  That would be a "break" in the paper trail and was sufficient to 
deny my application.  Fortunately, I had a document from 1938 when my father 
legally changed his name using his two brothers as witnesses.  The San 
Francisco Consulate was a bit reluctant to accept anything that old and in fact 
they had rejected my father's birth certificate from the Azores also acquired 
in 1938 so I had to get a more recent copy.  Anyway, they sent everything off 
to Lisbon and someone in Lisbon apparently was happy with the name change 
document and approved my application.
My son had applied before I did in New York and was told he had to learn the 
language, etc., etc.  I applied in San Francisco with no such requirement - 
just submit the papers and pay the money.  After I received my citizenship, I 
sent my paper trail along with my Lisbon acceptance to my son in New York who 
was then able to sail through with no additional requirements and he received 
his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David   

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 10:28 AM, Phil Lopes <lopesp...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 I secured dual citizenship several years ago and it took 5+ years but the 
offer for second generation citizenship was new at the time. It seems the 
process now is less time consuming. My major stumbling block was that since I 
had lived in three countries, I had to secure police reports from each which 
was impossible. The block was only overcome by the Portuguese Consul General in 
San Francisco securing a waiver of this requirement for me.Phil Lopes

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:51:44 PM UTC-7, Colleen Wright wrote:
Has anyone done this and how difficult of a process was getting Dual 
citizenship?
Obrigado,
Colleen Wright
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Dual Citizenship

[David Perry]

Phil, my son used my citizenship paper trail and my confirmation of citizenship 
to secure his.  When he went to the NY Consulate before I applied, he was given 
very little encouragement and was told he needed to learn the language even 
though his grandfather was born in the Azores.  After I got my citizenship 
through the San Francisco Consulate with no requirements except the paper 
trail, he took that information to the same consulate and was greeted with open 
arms with no language requirement and had his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David 

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 2:26 PM, Phil Lopes <lopesp...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 David,I am curious, did your son secure citizenship as a result of your 
citizenship or did he have to go through the same process as you did?Thanks.
Phil Lopes 
  
  

   
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 11:45 AM, David Perry <djperr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I too had a stumbling block - my father had changed his last name from Pereira 
to Perry.  That would be a "break" in the paper trail and was sufficient to 
deny my application.  Fortunately, I had a document from 1938 when my father 
legally changed his name using his two brothers as witnesses.  The San 
Francisco Consulate was a bit reluctant to accept anything that old and in fact 
they had rejected my father's birth certificate from the Azores also acquired 
in 1938 so I had to get a more recent copy.  Anyway, they sent everything off 
to Lisbon and someone in Lisbon apparently was happy with the name change 
document and approved my application.
My son had applied before I did in New York and was told he had to learn the 
language, etc., etc.  I applied in San Francisco with no such requirement - 
just submit the papers and pay the money.  After I received my citizenship, I 
sent my paper trail along with my Lisbon acceptance to my son in New York who 
was then able to sail through with no additional requirements and he received 
his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David   

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 10:28 AM, Phil Lopes <lopesp...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 I secured dual citizenship several years ago and it took 5+ years but the 
offer for second generation citizenship was new at the time. It seems the 
process now is less time consuming. My major stumbling block was that since I 
had lived in three countries, I had to secure police reports from each which 
was impossible. The block was only overcome by the Portuguese Consul General in 
San Francisco securing a waiver of this requirement for me.Phil Lopes

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:51:44 PM UTC-7, Colleen Wright wrote:
Has anyone done this and how difficult of a process was getting Dual 
citizenship?
Obrigado,
Colleen Wright
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Dual Citizenship

[David Perry]

I didn't and neither did my son though he has since learned some Portuguese.  I 
don't know what the language requirements are if your Portuguese ancestor is a 
great grandparent or beyond.  David  

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 12:30 PM, Cheri Mello <gfsche...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 It sounds like the children or grandchildren don't need the language 
requirement, but greats onwards do.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, 
Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Marilyn Thompson <mari...@jmtmlt.com> wrote:

So am I understanding that you are not required to have a knowledge of the 
language to get dual citizenship?That is my limiting factor. 
Marilyn Thompson
On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 11:45 AM, David Perry <djperr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I too had a stumbling block - my father had changed his last name from Pereira 
to Perry.  That would be a "break" in the paper trail and was sufficient to 
deny my application.  Fortunately, I had a document from 1938 when my father 
legally changed his name using his two brothers as witnesses.  The San 
Francisco Consulate was a bit reluctant to accept anything that old and in fact 
they had rejected my father's birth certificate from the Azores also acquired 
in 1938 so I had to get a more recent copy.  Anyway, they sent everything off 
to Lisbon and someone in Lisbon apparently was happy with the name change 
document and approved my application.
My son had applied before I did in New York and was told he had to learn the 
language, etc., etc.  I applied in San Francisco with no such requirement - 
just submit the papers and pay the money.  After I received my citizenship, I 
sent my paper trail along with my Lisbon acceptance to my son in New York who 
was then able to sail through with no additional requirements and he received 
his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David   

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 10:28 AM, Phil Lopes <lopesp...@gmail.com> 
wrote:
 

 I secured dual citizenship several years ago and it took 5+ years but the 
offer for second generation citizenship was new at the time. It seems the 
process now is less time consuming. My major stumbling block was that since I 
had lived in three countries, I had to secure police reports from each which 
was impossible. The block was only overcome by the Portuguese Consul General in 
San Francisco securing a waiver of this requirement for me.Phil Lopes

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:51:44 PM UTC-7, Colleen Wright wrote:
Has anyone done this and how difficult of a process was getting Dual 
citizenship?
Obrigado,
Colleen Wright
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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Dual Citizenship

[David Perry]

I too had a stumbling block - my father had changed his last name from Pereira 
to Perry.  That would be a "break" in the paper trail and was sufficient to 
deny my application.  Fortunately, I had a document from 1938 when my father 
legally changed his name using his two brothers as witnesses.  The San 
Francisco Consulate was a bit reluctant to accept anything that old and in fact 
they had rejected my father's birth certificate from the Azores also acquired 
in 1938 so I had to get a more recent copy.  Anyway, they sent everything off 
to Lisbon and someone in Lisbon apparently was happy with the name change 
document and approved my application.
My son had applied before I did in New York and was told he had to learn the 
language, etc., etc.  I applied in San Francisco with no such requirement - 
just submit the papers and pay the money.  After I received my citizenship, I 
sent my paper trail along with my Lisbon acceptance to my son in New York who 
was then able to sail through with no additional requirements and he received 
his citizenship in just a few weeks.  
David   

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 10:28 AM, Phil Lopes  
wrote:
 

 I secured dual citizenship several years ago and it took 5+ years but the 
offer for second generation citizenship was new at the time. It seems the 
process now is less time consuming. My major stumbling block was that since I 
had lived in three countries, I had to secure police reports from each which 
was impossible. The block was only overcome by the Portuguese Consul General in 
San Francisco securing a waiver of this requirement for me.Phil Lopes

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 1:51:44 PM UTC-7, Colleen Wright wrote:
Has anyone done this and how difficult of a process was getting Dual 
citizenship?
Obrigado,
Colleen Wright
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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Dual Citizenship

[David Perry]

I did it and how easy depends on a few things.  If you have a parent or 
grandparent (I don't think it extends beyond grandparents but I may be 
wrong) born in Portugal (including Azores, etc.), the Portuguese government 
already views you as a citizen whether you know it or not.  All you need do 
is establish a paper link to your ancestor using birth certificates, 
marriage licenses, etc.  The fees are around a few hundred dollars and it 
took me about six months to complete.  It helps if you have a Portuguese 
Consulate nearby to do things in person rather than by mail.  If you don't 
have a parent or grandparent born in Portugal, it's much more difficult.  
You would be applying for citizenship as an Naturalized Citizen and you 
would have to go through much the same hoops that someone applying for US 
citizenship would have to do - learn the language, pass a test, I think 
there's a residency requirement as well. 
David 

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 12:51:44 PM UTC-8, Colleen Wright wrote:

> Has anyone done this and how difficult of a process was getting Dual 
> citizenship?
>
> Obrigado,
>
> Colleen Wright
>

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Looking for any Fragoso descendants from Sao Miguel

[David Perry]

I have Frogoso folks way back in Lagoa (Rosario).  My 8th greatgrandfather 
was Manoel Fragoso born 26 Dec 1666.  The children of one of his daughters 
used another name so the Fragoso name disappeared from my ancestry around 
1700.
David

On Wednesday, January 20, 2016 at 10:10:03 AM UTC-8, Linda McLellan wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> My name is Linda and my father immigrated from Rabo de Peixe, Azores to 
> Canada.  Our family last name is Fragoso which is very rare.  Would love to 
> meet any other Fragoso's.
>
> Thanks
>
> Linda
>

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Community: Citizenship granted to grandchildren of Portuguese expats – Portugal

[David Perry]

I got Portuguese citizenship through the San Francisco consulate - my 
father was born in the Azores.  After I received my citizenship, my son did 
the same thing in New York  My having done it first made it easier for 
him.  Actually, it was all pretty easy for both of us.  The only glitch 
that might have been a problem was my father changed his name from Joao 
Pereira which was on his birth certificate to John Perry which was on my 
birth certificate.  Fortunately, he had made an official name change back 
in 1939 and had a paper record to prove it.  There was concern at the 
consulate that older records wouldn't fly in Lisbon - I had to get a recent 
BC for my father, the one he had from 1939 wouldn't fly - but they let the 
name change thing go through.  Without that certificate, my (and my son's 
applications) would have been denied.  

As for taxes paid in both countries, if you earn money in both countries, 
you pay taxes in both countries.  The US is the only major country however 
that taxes you on earnings overseas even if you haven't set foot in the US 
for decades.  And while there is an IRS tax credit for income earned 
overseas, I don't know if that applies to capital gains taxes or other 
forms of income besides earned income.  The forms required to satisfy the 
IRS are formidable and typically cost a few thousand dollars to complete if 
you pay someone. 
David  

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 1:31:10 PM UTC-7, Jose Medeiros wrote:

 Marylyn

 I would start with a birth certificate of your grandfather or grandmother 
 born in Portugal, Açores or Madeira
 Then I would get a birth certicicate of your dad or mother that have the 
 names of your grandfather and grandmother
 Last your own birth certificate with your dad and mother
 With these 3 documents there should not be any problems proving you are a 
 decendant of Portuguese grandparents

 On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 1:32:10 PM UTC-4, HK Pimental wrote:

 I suggest that you check the Portuguese Consulate webpage which is in 
 English

 Sent from Windows Mail

 *From:* Marilyn Thompson
 *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎18‎, ‎2015 ‎5‎:‎58‎ ‎PM
 *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com

 Would you please post a list of the requirements? Not in full detail, but 
 enough so those who are considering applying will know if they meet the 
 requirements. Thanks

 On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:16 AM, kpsre...@gmail.com wrote:

 I haave had much better experiences with the consulates. It is the rule 
 that you must go to the consulate that is assigned your area. So, when we 
 moved from Utah to Portugal 23 years ago we had to use the San Francisco 
 Consulate. We could have done everything by mail but since it was 
 convenient for us we went to SF for the final arrangements. We had no 
 problems and the person in charge of visas was very accommodating and 
 helpful. It has been our experience here in Portugal with the Serviço 
 Estrangeiros and Fronteiras., SEF, that everyone has been very helpful 
 whenever we have needed anything. I am applying for citizenship based on my 
 great grandparents and my desire to live in Portugal. I have a lawyer and 
 everything has been smooth so far. I may have to wait til I have been a 
 residente 5 years unless they grant me a waiver. They occaionally do that 
 if you live in the country and can prove that you have basic language 
 proficiency and a desire to be a part of Portugal. I suggest that you have 
 all of the proff you need and follow the instructions as the consulate 
 gives them to you. I think that if you understand that it is a diferente 
 country with defferent procedures and methods than the USA you will not 
 have any problems. I have certainly found it to be true that I would rather 
 deal with any Portuguese government employee than the department of motor 
 vehicles in any US state


 *From:* Jose Medeiros
 *Sent:* ‎Tuesday‎, ‎August‎ ‎18‎, ‎2015 ‎1‎:‎43‎ ‎PM
 *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com

 In dealings w/them very difficult and they think ( not all ) they are a 
 superior being to you
 I am sure you will not show up at a consulate and say John Smith was my 
 grandfather, born in the Azores and I desire Portuguese citizenship.
 You better have birth certificates of your family that ties all and all 
 lead to you as the grandchild of your grandfather born in the Azores
 The consulates in USA especially in the East coast of USA are ridiculous
 I have a family member that lives in Minnesota and she has to go to 
 Washington DC when she needs the consulate
 She comes often to Massachusetts yet the consulate in Boston WILL NOT 
 let her do anything there
 She is lucky because she works for an airline and can get flights to 
 Washington, DC but imagine taking all your family just to do a passport or 
 whatever paper you need and they will not do it in Boston but you have to 
 go to Washington,DC.
 RIDICULOUS

 On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-4, Ellen Ade wrote:

 How difficult? Are there consulates 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Suggestion for subject lines

[David Perry]

The purpose of asking for translation help is to assist the person asking 
for the translation - not to provide assistance to the translator.  If I 
were going to help someone translate, it ought not make any difference to 
me if the record is part of my research.  
David


On Thursday, May 14, 2015 at 7:01:25 AM UTC-7, Pat Rose wrote:

 I'd like to suggest that when we post that we put the surname we are 
 writing about so that if it doesn't happen to be something we are 
 interested in that we don't have to open it, read it and then delete it.  
 It can just be deleted.

 Example  Rose-Vargas  translation please (or)  Rose-Vargas  research please

 You get the idea.  I'm a part of another group and it has made it a whole 
 lot easier for all of us since we began doing that.

 Pat

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Joseph F Rose Flora Vargas from the Faial, Azores

[David Perry]

Are you aware that the name Rose is probably an Americanized da Rosa or 
da Roza.  I have some distant Rose relatives who were da Rosa in the 
Azores.  This might help in your search.
David

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 8:16:38 AM UTC-7, Pat Rose wrote:

 From marriage records in California, USA both Joseph F Rose, Abt 1848, and 
 Flora Vargas, Abt 1852 came to the United States prior to 1875 when they 
 married here per church records.  I've never been able to find any travel 
 records, arrival records, immigration records, or anything else about when 
 they left the Azores and came to the United States.  The church records 
 here indicated that they came from Faial, Azores but that was all I could 
 find.  I'd love any birth or travel records available.  Where might I begin 
 my search?
 Thank you,  Pat Rose, great grandaughter!


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[AZORES-Genealogy] name changes in america

[David Perry]

We all rue the name changes in the Azores but the tradition carried on in 
this country as well.  We're all familiar with the more common changes such 
as Pereira to Perry.  However one of my lines went from Medeiros to Medas 
to Meetis all in the span of fifty years or so.  Another changed from 
Manuel Rego to something entirely different because he didn't want to be 
confused with his cousin, another Manuel Rego in the same town.  Brick 
walls are everywhere.  
David 

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: How many Maria's......

[David Perry]

My grandmother, Francisca, had three Maria sisters.  Not unusual except the 
order Maria, Maria, Francisca, Maria of the four girls matches the pattern 
exactly for the previous generation Maria, Maria, Francisca, Maria.  The 
first two Marias of my grandmother's generation each married a Manoel 
Lima.  Took years to sort that out.  

On a related note, I have a few expostas in my ancestry and none of them 
are named Maria.  Is that intentional?  Was the name Maria reserved for 
legitimate children?
David

On Friday, January 2, 2015 12:15:08 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:

 I understand from a previous post that most Portuguese families had one 
 Manuel and multiple Maria's, but four? Dan from Portuguese Hawaiian 
 Genealogy Society sent me a packet a little over a month ago with 
 information on my paternal grandparents families. I knew my great 
 grandparents, the Silva's had eight children but Dan's info said nine. 
 Today I found the missing child (the parents and grandparents match all 
 other baptismo's). The link below is for Maria (#4 in their family) starts 
 on the lower left and continues on the upper right.  I see she was baptised 
 on 24 June 1900, was she born on the fourth day of the current month and 
 year? At least that is what I am seeing after her name.
  

 *http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_item1/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_JPG/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_1900_0016.jpg*
  
 http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_item1/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_JPG/SMG-PV-LOMBADOLOUCAO-B-1900-1904_1900_0016.jpg
  
 Thanks,
 Paul G.


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Azores to California

[David Perry]

I've known a few Portuguese in California who first went from the Azores to 
Hawaii to work in the sugarcane fields and then came to California.  
David

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 1:43:03 PM UTC-7, Diane Cox wrote:

 I've enjoyed the thread about Hawaii, Massachusetts or Brazil.  Does 
 anyone know the background of the migration to California.  There was a 
 large concentration of Portuguese in Newcastle, CA where I grew up.  Family 
 tradition says that my great-grandmother came from Flores in the early 
 1880's because her parents had died and something happened on the island 
 and many people were leaving.  Other relatives came from Pico and Faial in 
 the 1880's and 90's.  Does anyone have background on how and why they came 
 to California instead of the east coast?
 Thank you,
 Diane


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Seeking Portuguese citizenship

[David Perry]

I just received my citizenship through my local consulate and there was no 
language requirement.  I'm guessing anyone who wants to become a citizen 
with no familial connection has a language requirement but those of us who 
become citizens as a result of a parent born in Portugal have no language 
requirement.  There may be some confusion at the consulates since my son 
asked at the New York Consulate and was told there was a language 
requirement.   

On Sunday, July 6, 2014 9:15:41 AM UTC-7, Phil Lopes wrote:

 I just received my Portuguese citizenship on May 14 of this year. It took 
 me 7 years to obtain mainly because I had lived in three different 
 countries and I was required to get a police report from each one to prove 
 that I had no criminal record. Since after considerable trying I was unable 
 to get such reports I was saved by the new Portuguese Vice Consul in San 
 Francisco who secured a waiver for the police reports. The other time 
 consuming part was the Portuguese language test which is only offered in 
 the US a couple of times a year. I do not have a passport only a 
 citizenship card but with the card and $138.00 I can get a passport. At 
 this time, I have no intention of getting a passport but yes it is 
 recognized not only by European Union countries but any country in the 
 world. I began the process soon after the Portuguese government changed the 
 law to allow second generation (my parents were born in the US but 
 grandparents were born in Portugal) people to get citizenship.

 Phil Lopes

 On Friday, July 4, 2014 6:53:42 AM UTC-7, Lorraine wrote:

 Does anyone here (American) have any experience with seeking Portuguese 
 citizenship?  My father (deceased) was born in the Azores and I'm 
 considering applying for Portuguese citizenship.  For me it would be a dual 
 citizenship as I would retain my American citizenship.  ( I'm aware that 
 the US doesn't recognize a second citizenship for its American citizens.) 
 Just wondering about this - any advantages/disadvantages?  It's my 
  understanding that a Portuguese passport would be recognized in all of the 
 European Union - for extended stays, opening a business, etc.
   



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[AZORES-Genealogy] Anyone researching in Fairhaven, MA?

[David Perry]

Hi, I need the assistance of anyone who might be in or near Fairhaven, MA 
who could find an obituary or direct me to someone - a generous librarian 
for instance - who could do the same.  My grandmother's sister's entire 
line has been lost to the family for about ninety years and the only 
possible relative I can find is Manuel Rose born 22 Dec 1906 in Taunton.  
He died 07 Mar 1988 in Fairhaven, MA.  I'm hoping the obituary would have 
the names of surviving children or hopefully even grandchildren.  
Many thanks,
David

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Anyone researching in Fairhaven, MA?

[David Perry]

Many, many thanks to all.  The grave is indeed that of my Manuel Rose.  Now 
I have a bit more to work with.  Hopefully an obituary will list more 
names.  His mother by the way is listed as Mary Travers - I've seen this in 
other records as well - but her name was Mary Tavares.  This Manuel lived 
with his grandfather (my great grandfather in 1920, about eight years after 
his parents passed away.
Thanks again,
David

On Friday, May 16, 2014 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, David Perry wrote:

 Hi, I need the assistance of anyone who might be in or near Fairhaven, MA 
 who could find an obituary or direct me to someone - a generous librarian 
 for instance - who could do the same.  My grandmother's sister's entire 
 line has been lost to the family for about ninety years and the only 
 possible relative I can find is Manuel Rose born 22 Dec 1906 in Taunton.  
 He died 07 Mar 1988 in Fairhaven, MA.  I'm hoping the obituary would have 
 the names of surviving children or hopefully even grandchildren.  
 Many thanks,
 David


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Faial da Terra ancestors

[David Perry]

These folks are my direct ancestors.  I have all their children, at least 
all I could find.  They're on Ancestry.com if you have access.  I can also 
provide them through private email or through this group.  Let me know 
what's best.
David

On Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:02:03 AM UTC-7, JR wrote:

 Does anyone who wishes to exchange information have this couple in their 
 database?:

 Manuel Cabral and Maria Raposo natives and married in Faial da Terra 
 (?)circa 1748-66. Two of their children appear and marry in Ponta Garca, 
 in 
 1788 and 1789.


 JR 



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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Putting our research on Ancestry

[David Perry]

I had all my research on Ancestry including dozens of photos and stories.  
Of course much was corrupted by others so I removed all the personal 
information - the stories and photos - and just left the bare bones names 
and dates.  My feeling is that there should be at least  one correct 
listing on Ancestry which hopefully will be found by legitimate researchers 
even if others take names and dates and corrupt them.  These folks would 
screw up anything they get from any other source anyway so there's not much 
we can do about their ignorance,  At least they're not stealing great 
grandpa's only photo and using it incorrectly which I view as an insult to 
great grandpa.
David  
 

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 10:14:28 AM UTC-8, Doug da Rocha Holmes 
wrote:

 Hi Marcia,

 There has been some discussion about posting your genealogy research 
 online, no matter where you do it.
 It might be from maybe September, but I'm not sure.

 Some people, Joao Ventura comes to mind, has his own website and puts his 
 tree there. I don't do it, but if I were not forced to earn money to live, 
 I probably would post all my research online.

 People complain sometimes how someone takes their information and corrupts 
 it, resulting in things such as a grandfather attached as father to a 
 grandchild and other generational mistakes.

 This whole list is for sharing information and often people post lots of 
 generations of ancestry. John Raposo Miranda and Marcio Borba come to mind 
 for that. So the information is out there for someone to copy and it boils 
 down to whether you care if people make their own copy and then corrupt it.

 Cheri Mello often makes the funny suggestion to stick some obviously wrong 
 information in there to see if gets copied, such as an end of the line 
 ancestor named Flintstone.

 Out of curiosity, are there many from Pico or Terceira who settled in 
 Mendocino County?
 I believe my father once wrote an article about the Mendocino Portuguese 
 when he was the editor of O Progresso, the quarterly newsletter for the 
 Portuguese Historical and Cultural Society in Sacramento. But I don't 
 recall where they came from in the Azores.

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618
 www.dholmes.com


   Original Message 
 Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Putting our research on Ancestry
 From: Marcia marcia...@gmail.com javascript:
 Date: Thu, December 19, 2013 10:41 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:

 We have been approached by a researcher tasked with updating a book about 
 the Portuguese settlers in Mendocino County, California, who are all 
 primarily from the Azores.   We have determined that she is legitimate and 
 has been tasked by the local historical society which owns the rights to 
 the original book.We support the project very much, and do plan to 
 help, as the original book contains quite a few errors and omissions and 
 has been out of print for years.However, the researcher intends to 
 create a Public Ancestry Tree for each of the families to aid in 
 collaboration with the descendents of the families.   We are not really 
 keen on seeing our years of research placed on Ancestry, as we've all 
 experienced issues with how information can be mis-used, exploited, etc. 
 from Ancestry.At a minimum we would not allow her to use data about 
 living people on the internet.  

 We'd like to know what members of the group think about this.   Has 
 anything similar happened to you?   Is your work on Ancestry?What pros 
 and cons can you think of?   I haven't discussed this with the researcher 
 yet, wanting to hear your thoughts first. 

 Thanks very much for anything you can offer - Marcia Andre 
  


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help tracking down Immigration and Baptismal Record for John Perry - Sao Miguel

[David Perry]

What a coincidence though unfortunately of no help to you.  My father's 
name was John Perry, my name is David and a family friend who helped my 
grandfather purchase a farm in MA was named Camara.  Good luck tracking 
down your John Perry.  Mine lived in the SF Bay Area most of his life as do 
I.
David

On Thursday, December 12, 2013 7:49:29 PM UTC-8, Kawika322 wrote:

 I am trying to track down the immigration/ship passenger record for a 
 relative John Perry. From everything I found, he was most likely from the 
 Ponta Delgada area of Sao Miguel, and his birthday dates ranges from 
 December 1875 to 1879 based on various records (census, WWI draft register, 
 petitition for naturalization), but it could be different years. His 
 petition for naturalization record in Sacramento only states when he came 
 from Hawaii to California, but not when he came from Azores to Hawaii. The 
 census records say state he immigrated sometime around 1895. One ship came 
 in 4 April 1895 - The S.S. Braunfels. 

 One baptismal record of his first child Maria states his name as Joao 
 Damos Pareira. I searched the Index to Portugal Manifests on the Hawaii 
 Archives website and found a likely match - Joao Pereira Damaso who arrived 
 on the S.S. Braunfels in 1895. 


 http://archives1.dags.hawaii.gov/gsdl/collect/indextop/index/assoc/HASHeb18/98cce7a3.dir/doc.pdf

 It does not state is age but only he was from Delgada. I tried to look up 
 the record on the handwritten ship passenger manifests from the Portuguese 
 Consulate - It is microfilmed and available at the Family History Library 
 #1017125, but I could not find an entry of a Joao Pereira Damaso for some 
 reason on that ship. Maybe I missed it. The typed index card where I found 
 his name has #257, sheet 6 written on it. From what I can tell, this does 
 not correlate with the hand written numbers on the ship passenger lists. 
 Does anyone know what the original source info for the index cards is?

 Also, I am not sure on the names of his parents. The California Death 
 Record Index lists his father's last name as Camara and mother's last name 
 as Joseph. I have heard the family name of Camara from other cousins but it 
 has never been confirmed how the Camara (or Pereira Camara) name is 
 connected. He always went by John Perry.

 Any info would be helpful, 

  Thanks, 

   David 
   


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Portuguese Citizenship

[David Perry]

FYI - Portugal considers all descendants of folks born in Portugal to be 
citizens of Portugal.  All one needs is an unbroken paper trail back to 
your ancestor who was born there and you can become a dual citizen of 
Portugal and the US.  My father was born in Sao Miguel and after gathering 
the proper forms and paying a few hundred dollars to my local Portuguese 
Consulate, just today after about 9 months, I was notified I'm officially a 
Portuguese citizen even though I was born in Massachusetts.  The only 
wrinkle in my paper trail was my father changed his name from Pereira to 
Perry and that would have broken the trail except back in 1938 he 
officially changed his name in this country.  Without that document, it 
wouldn't have happened.  It's easiest to do if a parent was born there, 
more difficult if it's a grandparent - the trail gets longer and fuzzier - 
though it's still possible.  
 
I did this, not for me - I'm too old to care one way or another but for one 
son who has expressed a desire to open a BB in semi-retirement in the 
Azores.  He too is eligible since his grandfather was born there and now 
his father is a citizen as well.  Not only does it pave the way for him to 
work, live and run a business in Portugal but as a citizen of a European 
Union country, he can essentially do that anywhere in Europe.  
David
 
.   

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Portuguese Citizenship

[David Perry]

I miss-spoke when I said all descendants.  I believe it's only the first 
two generations that are eligible but I didn't ask about that since I was 
the first generation and my children would be the second.  I don't know if 
my grandchildren could become dual citizens based on my citizenship or that 
of my children should they choose to apply.  I'm pretty sure my 
grandchildren couldn't apply directly based solely on their great 
grandfather's birth in the Azores.  Sorry about any confusion.
David Perry  

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 11:38:03 AM UTC-8, David Perry wrote:

 FYI - Portugal considers all descendants of folks born in Portugal to be 
 citizens of Portugal.  All one needs is an unbroken paper trail back to 
 your ancestor who was born there and you can become a dual citizen of 
 Portugal and the US.  My father was born in Sao Miguel and after gathering 
 the proper forms and paying a few hundred dollars to my local Portuguese 
 Consulate, just today after about 9 months, I was notified I'm officially a 
 Portuguese citizen even though I was born in Massachusetts.  The only 
 wrinkle in my paper trail was my father changed his name from Pereira to 
 Perry and that would have broken the trail except back in 1938 he 
 officially changed his name in this country.  Without that document, it 
 wouldn't have happened.  It's easiest to do if a parent was born there, 
 more difficult if it's a grandparent - the trail gets longer and fuzzier - 
 though it's still possible.  
  
 I did this, not for me - I'm too old to care one way or another but for 
 one son who has expressed a desire to open a BB in semi-retirement in the 
 Azores.  He too is eligible since his grandfather was born there and now 
 his father is a citizen as well.  Not only does it pave the way for him to 
 work, live and run a business in Portugal but as a citizen of a European 
 Union country, he can essentially do that anywhere in Europe.  
 David 
  
 .   


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Pronunciation, Lisbon vs. Sao Miguel Portuguese

[David Perry]

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.  The comments regarding 
the French influence are quite interesting.  I have a number of Sao Miguel 
ancestors from the town of Vila Franca do Campo (I think that's correct) 
which translates to French Camp.  Why would anyone name a town French 
Camp?  By the way, there's a French Camp in CA started in the Gold Rush 
days named for a similar reason.  
 
Also, the comments about educated vs. uneducated folks holds true with my 
family.  At least seven and possibly all eight of my great grandparents 
were illiterate - couldn't sign their name.  Three of my four grandparents 
were the same way.  Without the ability to see what it is they were saying, 
it's no surprise that the spoken word would easily drift away from the 
written word.  Speaking of education, are my illiterate ancestors typical 
of all the islanders?  Are some of the islands more educated than 
others?  My ancestors all came from Sao Miguel, mostly the south-central 
part of the island and also the southeastern corner. 
David
   
On Saturday, July 13, 2013 7:43:10 AM UTC-7, Herb wrote:

 Hi David
  
 I was born in Sao Miguel and still speak Portuguese with the Sao Miguel 
 accent.  It sounds absolutely nothing like Brazilian Portuguese 
 pronunciation. Its like night and day David. In fact many Azoreans 
 have great difficulty understanding a Brazilian speaker.  I delved a bit 
 into all of this when I took some linguistic courses while pursuing my 
 undergarduate degree. I have always been fascinated by languages. Two facts 
 are in evidence.  One concerns the pronunciation of the  Portuguese 
 language as spoken in Sao Miguel where several peculiarities remind the 
 listener of French. The two most striking of these characteristics are the 
 pronunciation depicted by the letter u ( escudo, Furnas) as u in the French 
 tu and the sound depicted in the French dipthongs ou and oi ( ouro, noite 
 as the eu or French peu (foot), roughly the ur of New England, Burt.  The 
 French sounds in the Michalense ( Sao Miguel) pronunciation could be due to 
 French influnce on parts of the island.  The village known as Bretanha may 
 have been settled by Bretons from Brittanny France, possibly ship wrecked 
 sailors. At the western end of Sao Miguel there is a place called Ginetes, 
 probably so called from a famous breed of jennets for which the island was 
 noted.  The name reminds of the French word jenet  heather as in the 
 English Royal House of Plantagenet ( ruled 1154-1399).  The so called 
 French u also exists in Corvo and parts of  Madeira. The French u and eu 
 are heard in Continental Portugal specifically in the region known as the 
 Upper Alentejo where the families of many Azoreans originated. Some 
 scholars say that if it had been washed up Breton sailors or fishermen or 
 sailors or pirates at the end of the 16th century they would have Celtic 
 speaking and not French speaking. So maybe in order to confirm or deny the 
 theory of Breton influence we must examine the Celtic phonological system.  
 Having said all that David, there is no concrete evidence that Frenchmen 
 did so settle, much less influence the pronunciation of Michaelense.  The 
 matter of pronumnciation  impinges on that of provenience.  Lingustic 
 evidence  however, strongly suggests that the early setllers of Sao Miguel 
 came from southern Portugal from the Algarve region and from Upper Alentejo 
 and it is the pronunciation  from those regions that influenced 
 Michaelense. Still others hold to the French theory.
  
 I hope this helps at least partially explain the Portuguese language 
 pronumciation as spoken in Sao Miguel.
  
  
 Herb

 On Friday, July 12, 2013 4:10:06 PM UTC-4, David Perry wrote:

 I'm starting to learn Portuguese and everything I see and hear doesn't 
 sound at all like what I remember as a child while listening to my born in 
 Sao Miguel father talking to his relatives and neighbors, all of whom spoke 
 only Portuguese.  For instance, I specifically remember very well two 
 words:  legs which my father pronounced pad-nish (doesn't sound at all 
 like what I see in a dictionary - pernas) and chourico which my father 
 pronounced shoo-dees.  How different is the Sao Miguel Portuguese from 
 Lisbon Portuguese?  Are there a few general rules I can follow such as r's 
 sound like d's or drop the ending vowel as in the two examples above?
 David   



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[AZORES-Genealogy] Pronunciation, Lisbon vs. Sao Miguel Portuguese

[David Perry]

I'm starting to learn Portuguese and everything I see and hear doesn't 
sound at all like what I remember as a child while listening to my born in 
Sao Miguel father talking to his relatives and neighbors, all of whom spoke 
only Portuguese.  For instance, I specifically remember very well two 
words:  legs which my father pronounced pad-nish (doesn't sound at all 
like what I see in a dictionary - pernas) and chourico which my father 
pronounced shoo-dees.  How different is the Sao Miguel Portuguese from 
Lisbon Portuguese?  Are there a few general rules I can follow such as r's 
sound like d's or drop the ending vowel as in the two examples above?
David   

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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] San Francisco, California Online records

[David Perry]

How do I find these newspapers on Ancestry?  I'm a member of Ancestry.com 
and live in Hayward yet I've always had to go to the Cal State library and 
pour through the microfilm collection.
David P.

On Friday, September 2, 2011 4:15:13 PM UTC-7, E Sharp wrote:

 Carol,
  
 Hayward area newspapers are on Ancestry.com.  Do you need something 
 particular, I can look it up for you?
  
 E



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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree

[David Perry]

I'm sure I should have said pay for an indulgence or some such thing.  I 
thought it was pretty well known that these fees were common.  Close to 
twenty years ago I took a few Portuguese genealogy classes and these very 
fees were discussed along with the amount paid (no dollar amount but 
relative amount) according to the closeness of the relationship.  I got the 
impression at the time that the amount of money not only depended on the 
relationship but on the whim of the priest - a few charged for 2nd cousin 
marriages, others didn't for instance.  
David

On Thursday, May 30, 2013 2:46:42 PM UTC-7, Richard Francis Pimentel wrote:

 *I have never heard of paying for a dispensation and do not believe a set 
 price was made by Rome. The term indulgence is not the right term. An 
 indulgence refers to giving something of value to the church in return for 
 forgiveness (a ticket to heaven). These forms of corruption lead to the 
 reformation and no longer exist.*

 * *

 *Perhaps some of our other researchers could chime in on this.*

 * *

 *Rick*

 * *

 *Richard Francis Pimentel*

 *Spring, TX*

 *Formerly of Epping, New Hampshire *

 * *

 *Researching, Riberia Grande, Riberinha, Achada Grande,  Bretanha, and 
 Ponta Delgada,  Sao Miguel, Acores*

 * *

 *From:* azo...@googlegroups.com javascript: [mailto:
 azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:] *On Behalf Of *David Perry
 *Sent:* Thursday, May 30, 2013 8:42 AM
 *To:* azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:
 *Subject:* Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree

  

 I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) 
 to the local priest.  Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a 
 grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin 
 marriage?  Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or 
 were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official?  The reason I ask is 
 that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great 
 grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin 
 mind you but the cousin of his first wife.  He fought with the priest for 
 weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it.  The family joke for all 
 these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs.  Great 
 grandpa never set foot in a church again.  

 David


 On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:

 I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy 
 program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by 
 blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most 
 of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder 
 of the two.

  

 The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the 
 time.

  

 I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's 
 only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so 
 far.

  

 So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so 
 uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far 
 more common.

  

 The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.

 In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some 
 were 20 or more years apart.

  

 As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I 
 primarily work.

  

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618

 www.dholmes.com

  

  Original Message 
 Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
 From: pi...@dholmes.com
 Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com

 Yukon,

  

 I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.

 They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.

  

 However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to 
 check on that.

  

 I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.

  

 I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin 
 area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to 
 have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.

 This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of 
 the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope 
 in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, The Princes of Ireland - a 
 great historical fiction.

  

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618

 www.dholmes.com

  

  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
 From: yukon...@aol.com
 Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com

 I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle and 
 niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could not 
 believe it when I first found

Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree

[David Perry]

I assume these folks had to pay an indulgence (is that the correct word?) 
to the local priest.  Does anyone know if the amount paid was more for a 
grandfather/granddaughter marriage than for a 1st cousin/1st cousin 
marriage?  Did the amount paid depend on the whim of the local priest or 
were the amounts set by Rome or some higher official?  The reason I ask is 
that it seems to be whatever the local priest wants since my great 
grandfather had to pay to marry his first wife's cousin - not his cousin 
mind you but the cousin of his first wife.  He fought with the priest for 
weeks about it but finally gave in and paid it.  The family joke for all 
these years is that the priest needed a new set of golf clubs.  Great 
grandpa never set foot in a church again.  
David

On Sunday, May 26, 2013 10:36:09 PM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:

 I have 35 couples out of about 91,000 total couples in my genealogy 
 program who are related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity (by 
 blood) and so the parents for one are the grandparents for the other. Most 
 of the time the man is the elder, but a few times the women was the elder 
 of the two.

 The majority of the time these couples had children - maybe 90% of the 
 time.

 I am certain there are many more than the 35 above couples, but that's 
 only what I have transferred from my database to my genealogy program so 
 far.

 So this is a small fraction of the couples who married, but still not so 
 uncommon. And this doesn't include any 2nd degree cousins, which are far 
 more common.

 The most interesting finding to me is that so many of them had kids.
 In many cases, their ages were within the normal 2-5 years apart, but some 
 were 20 or more years apart.

 As usual, most of them are from Pico and Terceira, since that's where I 
 primarily work.

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618
 www.dholmes.com


   Original Message 
 Subject: RE: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
 From: pi...@dholmes.com javascript:
 Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 8:51 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:

 Yukon,

 I have seen it many, many times to have an uncle/niece marriage.
 They call that related in the 1st and 2nd degree of consanguinity.

 However, often it's when they are too old to have children. I'll have to 
 check on that.

 I have never seen a grandfather marrying a granddaughter, like Shirl.

 I recently read a book on the history of Ireland, specifically the Dublin 
 area, and in about 1200 AD, or so, it was considered a terrible thing to 
 have a cousin marrying a cousin, like the Irish were allowing.
 This was the opinion of all Christendom outside of Ireland, and was one of 
 the reforms imposed by the English king trying to win favor with the Pope 
 in Rome. The book, if anyone is interested, The Princes of Ireland - a 
 great historical fiction.

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618
 www.dholmes.com


   Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] related in the second degree
 From: yukon...@aol.com javascript:
 Date: Fri, May 24, 2013 6:42 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:

  I keep reading about cousins marring, but are there any recorded uncle 
 and niece marriage. I know this happened, at least in my family. I could 
 not believe it when I first found this. My great grandfather, gave his 
 daughter to his brother when she was 18. I thought it was odd that her 
 maiden name was not on license. While we may not all be super intelligent 
 we got by. As far as I know there were no great deformities or retardation 
 from this and the line lives into their late 80's to 90's, I am the only 
 one with any defect and that is in my heart. So to say I was amazed to 
 learn this news I was not totally shocked, just really got me interested in 
 my Azorean roots.
  
  In a message dated 5/22/2013 3:50:51 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
 pi...@dholmes.com javascript: writes:

 First cousins who married is nothing surprising for the Azores. My 
 grandmother's parents were first cousins from Sao Roque do Pico.
 And like Nancy, I have numerous ancestors who married cousins, both from 
 Pico and not so many, but also in Terceira.

 What surprised me was seeing these double first cousins, as Cheri tells us 
 they are called. I might have simply forgotten, but I am not sure I ever 
 saw it before.

 In fact, I look very carefully at every marriage record and hope they were 
 cousins. There are numerous times I have found older ancestors of my own, 
 not to mention for others, based on this fact.

 I believe I mentioned this many years ago on the old Azores List on 
 Rootsweb, but first cousins having children can have no visible bad results 
 in children.
 My grandmother, daughter of first cousins, lived to 101. Her brother lived 
 into his 90s. Another brother was in his 80s, I believe.

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 

[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Some Needed Translation Help

[David Perry]

Thanks Hermano - I'll take you up on your kind offer off line.  In the 
meantime, I've discovered another point of confusion.  I have a Clara born 
to Melchoir Baldaia and Maria Franca on 23 Jan 1628 and then twenty years 
later, this same Clara with the name Clara Vasconcellos actually written 
out on the record marries Thomas Rebello on 7 Jun 1648.  I assume she 
somehow wants to identify with or honor her grandmother.
David  

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:01:30 AM UTC-7, David Perry wrote:

 For fifteen years I've been trying to get my Rego Balaya lines back to the 
 original Rego Baldayas of the 1500s with no success.  My earliest record is 
 a marriage of Belchoir Baldaya to Maria Franca from 1623 in the Lagoa 
 (Rosario) section of the online Direcao Regional da Cultura site we're 
 all familiar with.  My only remaining option is maybe I'm reading the 
 record incorrectly.  Would someone be so kind as to take a look at the 
 record and tell me what they see?  I can read the other names but I'm 
 unsure of the relationships - parents, godparents?
  
 The record is under Casamentos, 1594 - 1683, it's record number 0052, and 
 it's on the lower half of the the page.  
  
 Many thanks in advance,
 David Perry


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Some Needed Translation Help

[David Perry]

Thanks Doug for your suggestions.  As for the priest writing the wrong 
first name, that's possible though in this case he also apparently wrote 
down the wrong place of birth.  Some years ago I scoured these records at 
my local FHC but came up empty.  As you know, the records we all have 
direct access to peter out around 1600 so the pickin's are slim.  I'll look 
again.
David Perry

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:01:30 AM UTC-7, David Perry wrote:

 For fifteen years I've been trying to get my Rego Balaya lines back to the 
 original Rego Baldayas of the 1500s with no success.  My earliest record is 
 a marriage of Belchoir Baldaya to Maria Franca from 1623 in the Lagoa 
 (Rosario) section of the online Direcao Regional da Cultura site we're 
 all familiar with.  My only remaining option is maybe I'm reading the 
 record incorrectly.  Would someone be so kind as to take a look at the 
 record and tell me what they see?  I can read the other names but I'm 
 unsure of the relationships - parents, godparents?
  
 The record is under Casamentos, 1594 - 1683, it's record number 0052, and 
 it's on the lower half of the the page.  
  
 Many thanks in advance,
 David Perry


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Some Needed Translation Help

[David Perry]

Thank you Margaret and Dano.  Unfortunately, what you've read is what I 
read which leads me to the very question Dano brought up.  Namely, everyone 
has Belchoir's father as Gaspar yet this record has Joam.  Over the years 
I've been told various reasons for this including the one mentioned, the 
priest wrote it down wrong which I also find unsatisfactory.  With that 
interpretation I could make myself the Queen of England.  Another 
suggestion was that Clara was married to Joam and in other years, she was 
married to his half brother Gaspar, again with no evidence.  It's a puzzle.
Thanks again, David

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 9:01:30 AM UTC-7, David Perry wrote:

 For fifteen years I've been trying to get my Rego Balaya lines back to the 
 original Rego Baldayas of the 1500s with no success.  My earliest record is 
 a marriage of Belchoir Baldaya to Maria Franca from 1623 in the Lagoa 
 (Rosario) section of the online Direcao Regional da Cultura site we're 
 all familiar with.  My only remaining option is maybe I'm reading the 
 record incorrectly.  Would someone be so kind as to take a look at the 
 record and tell me what they see?  I can read the other names but I'm 
 unsure of the relationships - parents, godparents?
  
 The record is under Casamentos, 1594 - 1683, it's record number 0052, and 
 it's on the lower half of the the page.  
  
 Many thanks in advance,
 David Perry


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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Birth Records From 1700's

[David Perry]

I have one from Lagoa (Rosario) from Dec 26, 1776 though it's unusual in 
one other respect.  It's the baptismal record of Marianna do Rego, daughter 
of Andre do Rego and Anna do Rego.  Her birth was one year, almost to the 
day, before the marriage of her parents which is what makes it different 
from all the other records.  Each parent is listed separately along with 
his/her parents (the grandparents of Marianna).  I've not seen any other 
records with grandparents prior to 1800 or so.  
David Perry

On Monday, May 6, 2013 11:32:24 AM UTC-7, Doug Holmes wrote:

 Hi Judy,

 I have never seen a baptism from the 1700s that says the grandparents in 
 Azores records, with the exception of Piedade, Pico which I think has them 
 to about 1775, but I haven't looked at those records in maybe 10 years and 
 am not certain.

 In Madeira, where I have done a ton of research for others in the past, 
 even the marriages from about 1730 forward list the parents and 
 grandparents. And I think there are some or many freguesias on the 
 continent that also did this.

 But I also found often these grandparents have some mistakes when you find 
 and compare their names in the original records. They should be viewed as a 
 secondary source, not primary except for the listing of the parents. This 
 happened in all baptisms for all Azores villages when listing grandparents. 
 They are often slightly wrong.

 Doug da Rocha Holmes
 Sacramento, California
 Pico  Terceira Genealogist
 916-550-1618
 www.dholmes.com


   Original Message 
 Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Birth Records From 1700's
 From: jt jud...@charter.net javascript:
 Date: Mon, May 06, 2013 10:30 am
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:

 I know that at least some of the birth records from the 1800's show the 
 grandparents names.  Does anyone know if the ones from the 1700's do also?  
 I am mainly interested in this for Pico and Sao Jorge.  I tried looking at 
 one of the records from the 1700's but it is so hard to read I decided to 
 see if the info I want would be there before spending any more time on it.
  
 Thx for any help.
  
 Judy Thompson 
  


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: MEDEIROS from unknown Island

[David Perry]

My grandfather is a Medeiros from Faial da Terra, Sao Miguel.  There are 
many Medeiros folks there and I can't recall the source but I read many 
years ago that the original Medeiros immigrants to the Azores first settled 
at the eastern end of Sao Miguel.  
Good luck,
David Perry 
On Tuesday, April 23, 2013 2:13:08 PM UTC-7, Betty wrote:

 Hi Doug, 

 For several years, as I have time, I try to help my husband's cousin with 
 his MEDEIROS / MIRANDA family-tree.(actually his father's cousin)   
  He 
 is more interested in finding descendants of  ..  Philip and Mary 
 (MIRANDA) 
 MEDEIROS, who reportedly had 8 children. 

 The 1900 US census for Cambridge, MA, has Mrs. Medeiros as a widow, and 
 having 6 children with her.   The family migrated here in 1889, and the 
 last 
 3 children were born here.It seems Mr. Medeiros died between 
 1895-1900, 
 as he fathered a child in 1895. In 1910, only the 2 youngest, as 
 teens, 
 were with her, and I can't locate the older children. 

 One side note is that I looked on census pages early this morning, and 
 there 
 were  4 other MEDEIROS families, almost in the same neighborhood, and 
 arriving around the same time, including:   Joseph, b1869, Frank, b1857, 
 Victor, b1862.Mrs. Mary (MIRANDA) MEDEIROS was b1859.The problem 
 is 
 that most of them just say born Portugal. 

 I'd like to help the cousin find his ancestry.Doug just mentioned that 
 many MEDEIROS came from Faial and Pico. But, as far as I know, the 
 cousin does not know where his Philip MEDEIROS, b~1855?,  came from. 

 Betty  (near Lowell, MA, USA) 

 P.S. 
 About a month ago a very helpful researcher offered me information on my 
 husband's ancestors.He said Mrs. Filomena (da ROSA) MOURA came from 
 Horta, Faial, but her parents came from both Faial and Pico.She and 
 Francisco MOURA also married there, and was told their children were born 
 there.But, Francisco was from Ponta Degada, Sao Miguel. 

 By the way, the surviving children were:   Manuel, Elzira Elsie, Ernesto 
 Frank, Rosa, and Carolina.   (in that order) I read that Ernesto and 
 Anna MOURA went back to the Azores during 1950's;   is it possible they 
 died 
 there? 




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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Anglican/Americanized names

[David Perry]

Every male member of my father's family for at least a few generations used 
Jacintho as a middle name.  Those who came to America changed it to Jessie.
David

On Thursday, April 11, 2013 10:35:39 PM UTC-7, Paul wrote:

 My cousin, and member of this group Eric Gomes has copies of death 
 certificates of family members. One for our great grandfather is a bit 
 curious. It lists his fathers first name as Justin, though we both have it 
 as Jacinto. Our great grandmother was the informant and could speak English 
 well enough to be understood. Just wondering if Justin could be the 
 Anglican/Americanized name of Jacinto?
  
 Paul G. 


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Help Getting Farther back on Primary Paternal line

[David Perry]

I have a Manoel do Rego Baldaya m. Izabel de Oliveira on 3 Sep 1707 in 
Fanais da Luz but can go no further back.  Also a ton of Rego Baldaya's 
from Rosario, Lagoa.  Can anyone get me further back with the Fanais da Luz 
Baldayas, maybe even connect with the Lagoa bunch?  It would make my mother 
and father multi-distant cousins.
David

On Saturday, April 6, 2013 8:45:29 AM UTC-7, Rego Baldaia wrote:


 This is how far I've gotten back. 

 Manuel do Rego Baldaia
 *is your 8th great grandfather*
 Manuel do Rego 
 Baldaiahttp://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1756252089
 son of Manuel do Rego Baldaia
  João do Rego Baldaia ( - 
 1767)http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1756189328
 son of Manuel do Rego Baldaia
  Manuel do Rego 
 Baldaiahttp://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1756108597
 son of João do Rego Baldaia
  Manuel do Rego Baldaia (1772 - 
 )http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1346476199
 son of Manuel do Rego Baldaia
  Jose do Rego Baldaia (1794 - 
 1843)http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1346451175
 son of Manuel do Rego Baldaia
  Jose Do Rego Baldaia (1817 - 
 )http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1341819176
 son of Jose do Rego Baldaia
  Jacinto do Rego Baldaia (1839 - 
 1910)http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/-649802228
 son of Jose Do Rego Baldaia
  Francisco do Rego Baldaia (1882 - 
 1966)http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/-656783264
 son of Jacinto do Rego Baldaia
  Joseph Rego Baldaia (1923 - 
 1975)http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/-656833674
 son of Francisco do Rego Baldaia
  Peter Joseph 
 Baldaiahttp://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/-656833676
 You are the son of Joseph Rego Baldaia - (not 
 you?http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/10340009/person/1756308560
 )

 -- 
 Peter J. Baldaia 


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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Public Trees

[David Perry]

I have the same frustration and I think the reason folks don't respond is 
that they are amateurs who see the ads on TV, jump at the introductory 
offer, find a few common names, swipe them to their tree and then lose 
interest.  When they don't pay to stay on Ancestry, they're long gone 
though their incorrect information is there for eternity.  The only thing 
we can do is put comments on their tree regarding the incorrect information 
but if their tree is private we're out of luck.  One Ancestry member 
distantly related to me has only a dozen or so names on his tree at any one 
time - the names he's researching using the Ancestry sources.  Once he has 
everything he can get, he deletes these folks and ads new names to research.
David

On Sunday, March 31, 2013 10:10:30 PM UTC-7, Pam Santos wrote:

 Was wondering how many have public trees? I am a little perplexed because 
 I do not, but had someone invited to my tree on my mothers side and made 
 that info public. I went on the ancestry and there are random children 
 added to my couple and  a date of death which is not correct. I emailed the 
 people and I hope they fix it, other wise others will copy what they have 
 and its not correct.

 I also emailed 8 people informing them they had the wrong parents for a 
 person who married my Antone Louis Medeiros (Bisho) So far only one 
 responded. I only emailed them because they would have been researching the 
 wrong parents. ( I am not even related to her) I would hope they would fix 
 it so others don't make the same mistake.
  

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: A town called Etras?

[David Perry]

My apologies, I should have been more clear.  First off, the obituary is in 
English from the Fresno Bee newspaper in Fresno, CA and a sibling of the 
dead person (a cousin) is identified as living in Etras, Portugal.  Also, 
my big mistake, when I said Faial da Terra, had a brain freeze.  That's the 
town of birth for my maternal grandfather.  I meant to say Vila Franca do 
Campo, just down the road from Agua d'Alto.
David
 
On Saturday, March 9, 2013 2:46:31 PM UTC-8, David Perry wrote:

 I have an obituary identifying a residence for a relative as Etras, 
 Portugal.  This relative was born around 1915 in Sao Miguel, probably Agua 
 d' Alto though he could have been born in Faial da Terra.  So, where did he 
 go?  To Etras in the Azores or Etras in Portugal?  Is there even an Etras 
 in either place?
 Many thanks, David


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[AZORES-Genealogy] A town called Etras?

[David Perry]

I have an obituary identifying a residence for a relative as Etras, 
Portugal.  This relative was born around 1915 in Sao Miguel, probably Agua 
d' Alto though he could have been born in Faial da Terra.  So, where did he 
go?  To Etras in the Azores or Etras in Portugal?  Is there even an Etras 
in either place?
Many thanks, David

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Mourning period

[David Perry]

Most men in my ancestry remarried rather soon after the death of their 
spouses.  The women in the 1600s and 1700s seemed to re-marry though not 
right away.  There seems to have been some kind of religious rebirth in 
the 1800's and well into the first half of the 1900's what with all the 
Maria's and religious middle names and the extended widowhood of my many 
female ancestors.  I remember in the 1950s visiting cousins of my father 
and there was invariably one or two old women sitting in a corner, all 
dressed in black with their rosary, rocking back and forth with their eyes 
shut praying for their dead husbands.  They were so involved in their 
prayers they didn't even acknowledge visitors.  All this for husbands who 
had been dead twenty or thirty years.
David

On Friday, March 8, 2013 11:25:38 PM UTC-8, Paul wrote:

 If a married person died say in the 1800's was there a set length of time 
 the surviving spouse mourned before they remarried? I ask this because my 
 paternal ggg grandmother died sometime after giving birth to my gg 
 grandmother in 1852.
  
 Paul G.


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Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Very Interesting Article - Jews in the Azores

[David Perry]

Nancy, my father was a Pereira from Sao Miguel, Azores and he and his 
brothers always used to joke that they were Jewish though I've found no 
evidence of that going back to the 1700's.  Interesting stuff.  David
On Wednesday, January 2, 2013 2:51:57 PM UTC-8, nancy jean baptiste wrote:

  Hi All,

 E, great article.thank you for sending it. Sounds very beautiful in 
 the synagogue and I hope they're able to get the funds to refurbish and 
 support it in the future.

 Doug, regarding DNA testing, I'm not sure that it can be clear yet to a 
 full extent for everyone.

 One reason I had mine tested was this very question. My Pereira mother had 
 always been told she looked jewishwhatever that means and she 
 mentioned it throughout her life. Another reason was my Dad's family worked 
 in Taunton doing silversmithing in the factory and in David Gitlitz's book, 
 Secracy and Deceit, The Religion of the Crypo-Jews, he mentions a group of 
 possible crypto-jews/new christians there. Since it was my Dad's DNA I 
 needed for Taunton I had my brother tested and got Dad's E1b1b2a which is 
 found in the Berber tribes in Morocco and Algiers. From history I knew that 
 there had been many opportunities through the centuries for my male line to 
 have moved from North Africa to Portugal, Spain and the Azores. In his 
 matches are some Sephardic Jews and a few of Ashkenazi. Proves nothing but 
 is insightful and intriguing.  With my Mom's I had my MtDNA and it was an 
 H3..99.9% H3. H is the most common DNA in Europe. Butsome of 
 her matches are to Sephardic Jews around the world. I then had my Uncle 
 tested to get my paternal grandmothers DNAU5athe Sami People from 
 the north and the steppes, one of the oldest of the DNA's.

 I have no conclusive evidence of descending from novo christians.but 
 knowing my genealogy in Portugal and Spain before coming to the Azores with 
 the earliest settlers on a couple of my lines, some of my surnames and my 
 familial customs, my intuition tells me they're back there.

 Nancy Jean




 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:01:06 -0800
 From: shirl@frontier.com javascript:
 Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Very Interesting Article - Jews in the Azores
 To: azo...@googlegroups.com javascript:


   Two of my ancestors are mentioned.   But I already have a photo of the 
 cemetery that another member posted a while back which had their names 
 listed.
 - Shirl -
  
  
 This is a very interesting article about Jews in the Azores.   
   http://sdjewishjournal.com/site/4648/jewish-azores/
   

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[AZORES-Genealogy] Re: Translation help please

[David Perry]

I think I might have figured it out.  My mother and others always insisted 
Serafina was a half sister and Rosa was the mother.  It's possible Rosa did 
indeed give birth, give the child to a church and later after marrying 
Manoel, took the child back.  The family story goes that Rosa was forced to 
provide favors as a young girl to her father's boss so her father could 
keep his job. 
  
On Thursday, November 22, 2012 1:50:44 PM UTC-8, David Perry wrote:

 Thanks so much for the information.  I wonder how she ended up a few years 
 later with my greatgrandparents, Manoel de Medeiros Quarta and spouse Rosa 
 Rebello to be raised as the sister of my grandfather.  How interesting.   
 On Monday, November 19, 2012 8:45:27 AM UTC-8, David Perry wrote:

 I've attached a photo of a record from Faial da Terra.  I believe it is 
 my mom's aunt Serafina who was supposedly born under suspicious 
 circumstances.  None of the names in the record seem to belong to my family 
 but she could have been adopted later.  Many thanks for any assistance.  
 David



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