subject:"CF Shopping carts"


Arr, I like the cut of your jib, Kevin Pepperman.

:DeN

-- 
As all Art depends on Vision, so the different kinds of Art depend on
the different ways in which minds look at things.
George Henry Lewes

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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Eric Roberts


I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that he
use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt
site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a
really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on doing
his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting
advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out
there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want to
point a finger, I was just defending myself.

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong.
okees? :)

Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront
cost?
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside




On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts 
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:


 I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also
 doesn't
 matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has
done,
 but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
 regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.  My
 client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
 promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise unemployed
 right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
 agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till
 my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
 little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
 are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
 Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.  I
 wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
 world with a family to take care of.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


 
  Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there.


 In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be
 even remotely true.
 Sean has always had a great ability to just say it like it is-- And I
 have
 to agree with him this time--
 Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out
 people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning
 that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he
 says
 something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be
 wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ).

 This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just
 confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared
to
 other OS community's.
 Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of
 time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more
free
 T-shirts* :)
 If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the
 statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees
 associated with them-- thats it.

 I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when
 you
 are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the
 wrong business.
 The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it
 will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for
 the
 real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact.
 If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know
 exactly
 what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all
my
 own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it.
 Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred
 dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or
 a
 developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can
 be
 afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even
 viable at all.
 Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart
 yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could
 even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in
 the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer.
 Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if
 not longer to build

Re: CF Shopping carts

No need to defend, I think people were commenting more on mindsets,
than *you*, so to speak.

That's the way I see it, in context.

Defend yourself (shit happens, I've been there), but don't defend a
mindset that is at it's core, unhealthy.

Not that I'm one to talk, but whatever. :)

:Denny

--
Books have become our dearest companions, yielding exquisite delights
and inspiring lofty aims.
George Henry Lewes

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Eric Roberts wrote:

I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever
heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he
use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt
site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a
really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing
his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting
advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out
there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to
point a finger, I was just defending myself.

~|
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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Eric Cobb

Wait...what?

-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every
suggestion.
-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources
already available.
-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free.
-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when
it takes off.
-You don't believe this site will ever take off.
-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that
you'll probably never get paid for it.

I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that
there isn't a free CF shopping cart...

I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get,
freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from. (My
wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY
know where you're coming from!) I've wasted many, many hours on these
types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into
something. What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted
everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything
for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does). Even
if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the
good-ole-boy discount. I can hear it now, C'mon man, I could outsource
this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me. You never tried
to charge me this much before!

I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some
clients. If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time. Sure, I
realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you
need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get
that money. But don't do the work if you don't get the money. Free
projects should be done in your free time. The time you waste on the
freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or
cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need.
Trust me, I've been there.

Thanks,

Eric Cobb
ECAR Technologies, LLC
http://www.ecartech.com
http://www.cfgears.com

Eric Roberts wrote:
I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
impression that people don't like it. Not something that I have ever
heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
free options. It's not decision unfortunately. I even suggested that he
use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt
site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be a
really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites). He insists on doing
his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of getting
advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts out
there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer. So if you really want to
point a finger, I was just defending myself.

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts

C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong.
okees? :)

Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront
cost?
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:

I think you assume too much. First off...I'm not a newbie. It also
doesn't
matter who said it. I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has

done,

but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out. My
client can't afford much. I am actually doing this job as a favor on
promise of payment as he can afford it. As I am also otherwise unemployed
right now I also can't afford it. Most of the consulting I do is via
agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till
my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone. Yours and
Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist. I
wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
world with a family to take care of.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts

~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
Archive:
http

RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Bobby Hartsfield


You are giving me flash backs man... I think most of us have been there at
one point or another.
 
.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.
Bobby Hartsfield
http://acoderslife.com
 
-Original Message-
From: Eric Cobb [mailto:cft...@ecartech.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:02 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


Wait...what?

-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every 
suggestion.
-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources 
already available.
-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free.
-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when 
it takes off.
-You don't believe this site will ever take off.
-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that 
you'll probably never get paid for it.

I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that 
there isn't a free CF shopping cart...

I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get, 
freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from.  (My 
wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY 
know where you're coming from!)  I've wasted many, many hours on these 
types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into 
something.  What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted 
everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything 
for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does).  Even 
if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the 
good-ole-boy discount.  I can hear it now, C'mon man, I could outsource 
this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me.  You never tried 
to charge me this much before! 

I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some 
clients.  If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time.  Sure, I 
realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you 
need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get 
that money.  But don't do the work if you don't get the money.  Free 
projects should be done in your free time.  The time you waste on the 
freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or 
cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need.  
Trust me, I've been there.

Thanks,

Eric Cobb
ECAR Technologies, LLC
http://www.ecartech.com
http://www.cfgears.com



Eric Roberts wrote:
 I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
 impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
 heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
 free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that he
 use caf? press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt
 site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be
a
 really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on doing
 his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
 afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of
getting
 advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts
out
 there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want to
 point a finger, I was just defending myself.

 Eric

 -Original Message-
 From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] 
 Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


 C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they
belong.
 okees? :)

 Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
 Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no
upfront
 cost?
 https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside




 On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts 
 ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:

   
 I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also
 doesn't
 matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has
 
 done,
   
 but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
 regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.  My
 client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
 promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise
unemployed
 right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
 agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out
till
 my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
 little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
 are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
 Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.  I
 wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
 world with a family to take care of.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Monday

Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Michael Grant


I 100% agree with this.

Eric (Roberts), you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to
drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a
resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating
your portfolio.



On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Eric Cobb cft...@ecartech.com wrote:


 Wait...what?

-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every
 suggestion.
-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources
 already available.
-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free.
-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when
 it takes off.
-You don't believe this site will ever take off.
-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that
 you'll probably never get paid for it.

 I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that
 there isn't a free CF shopping cart...

 I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get,
 freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from.  (My
 wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY
 know where you're coming from!)  I've wasted many, many hours on these
 types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into
 something.  What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted
 everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything
 for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does).  Even
 if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the
 good-ole-boy discount.  I can hear it now, C'mon man, I could outsource
 this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me.  You never tried
 to charge me this much before!

 I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some
 clients.  If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time.  Sure, I
 realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you
 need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get
 that money.  But don't do the work if you don't get the money.  Free
 projects should be done in your free time.  The time you waste on the
 freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or
 cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need.
 Trust me, I've been there.

 Thanks,

 Eric Cobb
 ECAR Technologies, LLC
 http://www.ecartech.com
 http://www.cfgears.com



 Eric Roberts wrote:
  I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
  impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
  heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
  free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that he
  use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a
 t-shirt
  site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would
 be a
  really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on doing
  his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
  afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of
 getting
  advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts
 out
  there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want to
  point a finger, I was just defending myself.
 
  Eric
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz]
  Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM
  To: cf-talk
  Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts
 
 
  C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they
 belong.
  okees? :)
 
  Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
  Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no
 upfront
  cost?
  https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside
 
 
 
 
  On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts 
  ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:
 
 
  I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also
  doesn't
  matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has
 
  done,
 
  but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
  regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.
  My
  client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
  promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise
 unemployed
  right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
  agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out
 till
  my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
  little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and
 Sean
  are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
  Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.
  I
  wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
  world with a family to take care of.
 
  -Original

Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Steve Bryant


I just finished deploying a shopping cart on a second. I am planning to release 
it as FOSS as soon as I get a little bit of documentation written.

In writing it, I used cfpayment (http://cfpayment.riaforge.org/). It provides 
an abstraction layer to several payment gateways and it is easy to add new 
payment gateways if the one you need isn't supported.

It is an amazing project and really saved me time. I would highly recommend 
that anyone endeavoring to build their own cart in ColdFusion check it out.

Steve

No problem...but just an FYI, I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple CF FOSS
attempts get as far as a committee/planning stage.  Here's to hoping this
one gets further.  What about a paid approach...maybe a paid plug in for
Railo?  Free licenses for those who contribute?  Maybe base it on FW/1? 

Not at all against FOSS, just want to see this work.

Mark liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin 

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Dave Watts

This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong.

1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end
of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a
job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as
a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was
saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to
label it as elitist BS. There's a cost of entry into any field that
goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer,
you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you
want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I
point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm
sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you
go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and
it's out of line, and I think you should stop.

2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make
nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce
package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS
package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for
his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your
time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for
what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you
should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal
budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads
to ...

3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do
low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that
might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around
PHP than CF. CF simply has never really aimed at that market. Frankly,
if I were you and I wanted to go after that range of clients, I'd drop
CF like a stone. Not because PHP is better, of course, and I wouldn't
like it, but it makes sense in that market.

I'm sorry for being harsh, if you perceive this as harsh, but the
facts are what they are. I do wish you good luck in your future
development endeavors, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or on

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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Eric Roberts

I'm already doing that ;-)

-Original Message-
From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:13 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts

I 100% agree with this.

Eric (Roberts), you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to
drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a
resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating
your portfolio.

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Eric Cobb cft...@ecartech.com wrote:

 Wait...what?

-Your client refuses to listen to you and has rejected your every
 suggestion.
-Your client has no money and refuses to use the free resources
 already available.
-Your client expects you to build a custom site for free.
-You agreed to build the site on the hopes that you'll get paid when
 it takes off.
-You don't believe this site will ever take off.
-You're unemployed, and are doing this work for free knowing that
 you'll probably never get paid for it.

 I think I've found the source of your frustration, and it's not that
 there isn't a free CF shopping cart...

 I've been an unemployed, broke, work from home, take what you can get,
 freelance contractor myself, so I know where you're coming from.  (My
 wife and I both lost our jobs on the same day back in 2005, so I REALLY
 know where you're coming from!)  I've wasted many, many hours on these
 types of clients in the hopes that one day it would turn into
 something.  What I found, though, was that the ones that wanted
 everything for nothing to start with will continue to expect everything
 for nothing even after their business takes off (if it ever does).  Even
 if you're doing work for a friend, they'll always expect the
 good-ole-boy discount.  I can hear it now, C'mon man, I could outsource
 this for a third of what you're wanting to charge me.  You never tried
 to charge me this much before!

 I also realized that there comes a point where you have to fire some
 clients.  If it's not profitable, then it's a waste of time.  Sure, I
 realize that sometimes you have a $100 electric bill that's due and you
 need to buy groceries, so you'll do whatever work you can find to get
 that money.  But don't do the work if you don't get the money.  Free
 projects should be done in your free time.  The time you waste on the
 freebie clients would be better spent trying to find paying clients, or
 cutting your neighbors grass to scrape together the money you need.
 Trust me, I've been there.

 Thanks,

 Eric Cobb
 ECAR Technologies, LLC
 http://www.ecartech.com
 http://www.cfgears.com

 Eric Roberts wrote:
  I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
  impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
  heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several
other
  free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that
he
  use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a
 t-shirt
  site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would
 be a
  really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on
doing
  his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
  afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of
 getting
  advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts
 out
  there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want
to
  point a finger, I was just defending myself.

  Eric

  -Original Message-
  From: Michael Grant [mailto:mgr...@modus.bz]
  Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 8:27 PM
  To: cf-talk
  Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts

  C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they
 belong.
  okees? :)

  Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
  Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no
 upfront
  cost?
  https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside

  On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts 
  ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:

  I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also
  doesn't
  matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has

  done,

  but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
  regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.
  My
  client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
  promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise
 unemployed
  right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
  agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out
 till
  my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
  little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and
 Sean
  are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
  Sean's assumption that $200

RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Eric Roberts

Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so.  And
just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist.

-Original Message-
From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:15 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts

 I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
 impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
 heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
 free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that he
 use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a t-shirt
 site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would be
a
 really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on doing
 his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
 afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of
getting
 advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts
out
 there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want to
 point a finger, I was just defending myself.

This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong.

1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end
of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a
job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as
a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was
saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to
label it as elitist BS. There's a cost of entry into any field that
goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer,
you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you
want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I
point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm
sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you
go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and
it's out of line, and I think you should stop.

2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make
nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce
package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS
package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for
his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your
time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for
what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you
should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal
budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads
to ...

3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do
low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that
might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around
PHP than CF. CF simply has never really aimed at that market. Frankly,
if I were you and I wanted to go after that range of clients, I'd drop
CF like a stone. Not because PHP is better, of course, and I wouldn't
like it, but it makes sense in that market.

I'm sorry for being harsh, if you perceive this as harsh, but the
facts are what they are. I do wish you good luck in your future
development endeavors, though.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or on

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Charlie Griefer


No, the fact that it's not elitist makes it not elitist.

Dave's analogy about the auto mechanic and the tools was spot-on (as per
usual).  If you want to do a job, you're expected to have the tools to do
the job.

I also agree 100% with what many have said about this particular client.
 I've dealt with those toxic clients before, because like yourself, I
couldn't afford to turn anybody away.  I learned right quick that often,
it's better (and more profitable) to -not- take on certain clients.  I can
virtually assure you that things with this particular client are not going
to end well.  Been there, done that.  It's never ended well.

I feel for your situation.  We just made a move as well, and we're hurting
from it.  I'm also freelancing right now and I definitely feel the pressure
to put food on our table.  We're a single income family of 5, and it's
definitely challenging at times.  But the fact of the matter remains... it's
not an elitist attitude to expect that somebody who wants to perform a
particular job will have, or be able to obtain, the tools necessary.

In all sincerity, I wish you the best of luck and hope things work out in
the end.  But sniping at folks who are only trying to offer assistance, even
if you don't agree with their perspective, isn't going to get you out of the
hole any faster.  If anything, it'll only make it worse :\

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:38 AM, Eric Roberts 
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:


 Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so.  And
 just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist.

 -Original Message-
 From: Dave Watts [mailto:dwa...@figleaf.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:15 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


  I pushed that...he doesn't like PayPal for some reason...he is under the
  impression that people don't like it.   Not something that I have ever
  heard...but he has that stuck in his head. I have suggested several other
  free options.  It's not decision unfortunately.  I even suggested that he
  use café press for now until; he gets some sales (He wants to do a
 t-shirt
  site...I questioned whether or not this would even take off as he would
 be
 a
  really small fish in a huge ocean of t-shirt sites).  He insists on doing
  his own site...so finding a good cart to integrate into this that he can
  afford is the difficulty...which is why I asked here and instead of
 getting
  advice from folks like Sean, I was told that if I can't afford the carts
 out
  there for 200, I shouldn't even be a developer.  So if you really want to
  point a finger, I was just defending myself.

 This is all so screwed up, it's not even wrong.

 1. $200 for any software development product is on the extreme low-end
 of the scale. If you can't afford to buy the tools you need to do a
 job, you shouldn't do the job. This doesn't reflect on your skills as
 a developer, etc, it's just a fact of life. That's all that Sean was
 saying, and he's absolutely right, and you're absolutely wrong to
 label it as elitist BS. There's a cost of entry into any field that
 goes beyond your own skills. If you want to be a freelance programmer,
 you have to buy a certain amount of stuff, like a computer. If you
 want to be a car mechanic, you have to buy tools. Etc, etc, etc. So, I
 point the finger at you for mischaracterizing Sean's response. I'm
 sorry you don't have the money you need to do this job, but there you
 go. And, you have a history of doing this with Sean specifically, and
 it's out of line, and I think you should stop.

 2. You're working for nothing for a client that's going to make
 nothing. You have bigger problems than the cost of an ecommerce
 package. If your client wants specific functionality that's in a COTS
 package, he needs to buy the package, not you. If it's too rich for
 his taste, that's his problem, not yours. But you're just wasting your
 time doing this work. Clients like this, who aren't willing to pay for
 what they want, or can't pay for what they want, they're toxic and you
 should avoid them. This guy wants Amazon functionality on a Paypal
 budget, and you're not going to be able to make him happy, which leads
 to ...

 3. You're using the wrong tools for the job. If you want to do
 low-margin work, you need to use low-margin tools. You know, that
 might mean PHP, because there's a much larger FOSS ecosystem around
 PHP than CF. CF simply has never really aimed at that market. Frankly,
 if I were you and I wanted to go after that range of clients, I'd drop
 CF like a stone. Not because PHP is better, of course, and I wouldn't
 like it, but it makes sense in that market.

 I'm sorry for being harsh, if you perceive this as harsh, but the
 facts are what they are. I do wish you good luck in your future
 development endeavors, though.

 Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
 http://www.figleaf.com/
 http://training.figleaf.com/

 Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small

Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Matt Robertson


Well, I guess it is a bag-on-Eric thread after all.

Michael Grant said
you'd be much better spending the 40 or so hours trying to
drum up business or on a job search. Spend one day putting together a
resume/portfolio and the other 32 hours contacting people and circulating
your portfolio.

Good advice right there.

Like I said, you have a problem with your business model.  Abandon it.
 Reboot.  Cuz right now you are making a big mistake that a lot of us
recognize ... since we made the same stupid move ourselves and know
the consequences.

And when someone tells you this they aren't elitists...  They correct
word is 'successful', and to be blunt, thats something you are not.
Pay attention to someone who is successful if they take the time to
give you advice.  Chances are they have done well for reasons other
than blind luck or random chance.

Not saying any of this to be mean.  This is just the way it is and, as
many of us have said, we have been there, done that and really hate to
see someone else jumping off that same cliff.

-- 
-...@robertson--
Janitor, The Robertson Team
mysecretbase.com

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Dave Watts

Actually, I dont want to do freelance work, but I am forced to do so.

I'm sorry to hear that. But if you're forced to do something, and you
want to do it successfully, you may have to change your expectations,
etc.

And just because you share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist.

No, the fact that I share his attitude doesn't make it not elitist.
Something else does, though. Sean's statement is descriptive, not
prescriptive. It describes the world as it is, it doesn't say the
world should be this way or that. If you want to do certain things,
and those things require you to buy tools, you can't do those things
unless you can afford the tools. That's just the way it is. I'm sure
Sean would also like to spend less money buying tools, and I know I
would. But no one's giving away free computers, and no one's giving
away all sorts of other things I need to do my job. So I buy what I
need to buy, or I don't take the job.

And if you look at the general prices of software development tools,
$200 is on the low end. It's not as low-end as free, of course, but
again, you have to look at what other non-free software costs for your
comparison. Again, not elitism, just an observation that you can
confirm by spending half an hour on cdw.com or pparadise.com, etc. And
custom packages, etc, for CF are kind of a niche anyway, so if I
wanted to build a COTS shopping cart in CF that I could sell, I'd have
to price it pretty high, because not too many people would buy it.

That's not elitism, it's just a description of the world, unless by
elitism you mean something I don't like. The world sucks in a lot
of ways. But it is what it is.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Kevin Pepperman


Well, no one can say that CFML coders are not a passionate group thats for
sure.

To everyone participating in this conversation-- I have much respect-- and I
do mean everyone.
Times are tough everywhere right now, and we all need to group together and
stay focused on what we believe in and what we know works.
I don't think anyone meant to single anyone else out with what was said, so
please don't let the popular consensus distract you, we can all still get
along just fine even if we don't always see eye to eye.

So anyone actually participating has my 100% respect, I don't hold grudges
and I know sometimes we will all disagree on things and we can still all
move forward with our objectives.
Lets focus this passion on something constructive that we can all benefit
from-- this ball is rolling and picking up momentum, lets put some wind at
its back and push it along :)

This group rocks!




-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: CF Shopping carts

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Matt Robertson wrote:

Well, I guess it is a bag-on-Eric thread after all.

I still say it's a mindset. :-)

And just to take a second and address the not free thoughts:

*The following comments are aimed at a mindset, not specific people.*

It is 100% possible to pull yourself up by the bootstraps, with 0
investment of money.

Besides the easy way of having the client pay for the needed
resources, there's *all kinds* of ways to get stuff for free.

Lots of places will donate computers if you've got a worthy cause.
Sometimes just to get them off their hands and for tax purposes, even.
Same goes for software, and really, just about anything you can think
of. People are human, and humans can be pretty awesome.

My first whole computer (I'd built many from scratch prior) I got
after doing a Wiccan spell. I kid you not.

Of course, I worked towards the spell's goal, as pretty much
everything in that category requires (you don't just sit and pray, you
pray and try, so to speak).

I was doing volunteer work at the time. Not 100% volunteer, because I
was getting paid in food, but the food was just a bonus. I love what
I do. That I can make money (or get free food) doing it is just mind
blowing. Everyone should love their job (maybe. It's a little
harder to draw lines when you enjoy it so. ).

Anyways, I wanted a new computer, and I also wanted to test wiccan
spells. I did the spell, and then kept my eyes open, so to speak.
The volunteer work led to some excess hardware, which I was able to in
turn trade for new hardware. Things just kept falling into place.

God talks to me through coincidence. Or, more specifically, synchronicity.

Or maybe it's aliens or my subconscious or something, I haven't really
nailed that one down. But for sure the key is coincidence.

If I'd ignored the messages from the Universe, or wrote them off as
being mere coincidence, I never would have gotten to where I am
today. I'd be slinging drugs or flipping burgers or some such (or
maybe a billionaire, who knows, really, but I digress, as this is a
story...).

So my advice is to Listen, as the Universe speaks to us all the time.

Woohaa!

:Denny

--
Jesus, did you see what GOD just did to us man??
-Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (the movie)

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Re: CF Shopping carts

Alright, this is sounding pretty freaking good.

Coincidentally, I now need a shopping cart too. I /was/ going to
reuse an old, pretty decent one, but it's sorta geared towards
Model-Glue, and I never really tested the lofty framework agnostic
aims it aspired to. Using a community based one for a MG actionpack
would be more in the original spirit, anyways.

Leveraging cfpayment sounds excellent, and we could toss in some i18n
stuff right from the beginning as well...

What do folks think about ColdSpring? I don't really think of it as a
framework, but it is, I recon. Does that make using it verboten for a
project like this? I see good things either way, so... just curious.

Did you use any other community projects (like coldspring) when
building your cart, Steve?

:Denny

--
Books minister to our knowledge, to our guidance, and to our delight,
by their truth, their uprightness, and their art.
George Henry Lewes

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:01 AM, Steve Bryant wrote:

I just finished deploying a shopping cart on a second. I am planning to
release it as FOSS as soon as I get a little bit of documentation written.

In writing it, I used cfpayment (http://cfpayment.riaforge.org/). It provides
an abstraction layer to several payment gateways and it is easy to add new
payment gateways if the one you need isn't supported.

It is an amazing project and really saved me time. I would highly recommend
that anyone endeavoring to build their own cart in ColdFusion check it out.

Steve

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Sean Corfield


On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:26 PM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote:
 What do folks think about ColdSpring?  I don't really think of it as a
 framework, but it is, I recon.  Does that make using it verboten for a
 project like this?  I see good things either way, so...  just curious.

I'm a huge fan of ColdSpring but I think it would be an unnecessary
dependency for a project like this. You might get away with LightWire
(it's just one CFC at the core) or a do-it-yourself simple bean
factory, depending on how critical autowiring and dependency injection
really are. Or you could drop in ioc/1 or di/1 or whatever I end up
calling it when it is released (a one CFC convention-based DI
'framework' in the spirit of FW/1).
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret At

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Re: CF Shopping carts


On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Sean Corfield wrote:

 On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:26 PM, denstar valliants...@gmail.com wrote:
 What do folks think about ColdSpring?  I don't really think of it as a
 framework, but it is, I recon.  Does that make using it verboten for a
 project like this?  I see good things either way, so...  just curious.

 I'm a huge fan of ColdSpring but I think it would be an unnecessary
 dependency for a project like this. You might get away with LightWire
 (it's just one CFC at the core) or a do-it-yourself simple bean
 factory, depending on how critical autowiring and dependency injection
 really are. Or you could drop in ioc/1 or di/1 or whatever I end up
 calling it when it is released (a one CFC convention-based DI
 'framework' in the spirit of FW/1).

For something like a shopping cart, it seems like DI (and maybe AOP)
might be pretty cool, but it is a different way of doing things, so to
speak, and different can be hard to do.

FWIW, I think dependency / package management will be important areas
in the future, as more and more cool stuff emerges, but that's really
besides the point.

It's going to be hard to have a really good, *and* really simple cart,
basically.  :-/

:Den

-- 
Good writers are of necessity rare.
George Henry L

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-29 Thread Steve Bryant

Denny,

Alright, this is sounding pretty freaking good.

Yeah, cfpayment is really amazing. I am always surprised that it doesn't get
more attention that it does.

Leveraging cfpayment sounds excellent, and we could toss in some i18n
stuff right from the beginning as well...

I haven't thought about i18n yet. I should get to that at some point...

Did you use any other community projects (like coldspring) when
building your cart, Steve?

That is a good question. In the major drawback of my project (for some), it was
a pretty major case of eating my own dog food.

Since I really built this to meet the needs of my clients, I built it on top of
my own framework (also FOSS). This works great for me, but it means that one
has to use my framework to take advantage of my shopping cart.

Naturally, I think my own framework is an advantage (I may be biased), but I
can certainly see how that would be a drawback to some.

A bit about the framework itself, if anyone is interested:
http://www.bryantwebconsulting.com/blog/index.cfm/2010/6/1/Another-Fun-Framework

I'll try to get some documentation on the cart itself as soon as I am able.

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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Sebastiaan GMC van Dijk


I've only tested it once and wasn't impressed - but maybe it's evolved since I 
treid it out a long while ago.


BTW, I was referencing Charlie Griefer in my long post last week, I meant 
Charlie Arehart of course!!!



Here's his link on CF411 on CF-based e-commerce solutions: 
http://www.carehart.org/cf411/#ecm


Sebastiaan
=
So long and thanx 4 all the fish

== Onlinebase.nl


 Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:28:35 +1000
 Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts
 From: dev-li...@mbcomms.net.au
 To: cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
 
 
 Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart?
 
 
 -- 
 
 Yours,
 
 Kym Kovan
 mbcomms.net.au
 
 
 

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Kevan Stannard


I used CFShopKart a few years back before it was free and had a pretty poor
experience. The list of cart features were good, but I found its
implementation very poor with duplicate code, scores of bugs, messy markup
and sparse responses from the developer when attempting to contact him
regarding the bugs I found. I haven't looked at it recently so it may be
better now.

On 28 June 2010 15:28, Kym Kovan dev-li...@mbcomms.net.au wrote:


 Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart?


 --

 Yours,

 Kym Kovan
 mbcomms.net.au


 

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Mike Kear


Thats why i like the idea of my own shopping cart.  I find it takes longer
to track down a bug in someone else's code and fix it  (or get a support
ticket attended to ) than in my own code.   And at least i know they are my
own bugs!(I always make such a better class of bug, you know? g )

When you make your own code you learn a lot more about how everything bolts
together.

It's not a principle that always works, but for basic things like a CMS or a
catalogue or a shopping cart I think its better to invest in your own code
and use that for client sites.   (always assuming that your own code is good
enough of course)

Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.com
ColdFusion 9 Enterprise, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET hosting from AUD$15/month



On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:59 PM, Kevan Stannard ke...@stannard.net.auwrote:


 I used CFShopKart a few years back before it was free and had a pretty poor
 experience. The list of cart features were good, but I found its
 implementation very poor with duplicate code, scores of bugs, messy markup
 and sparse responses from the developer when attempting to contact him
 regarding the bugs I found. I haven't looked at it recently so it may be
 better now.

 On 28 June 2010 15:28, Kym Kovan dev-li...@mbcomms.net.au wrote:

 
  Bringing this back on topic has anyone got any opinions about CFShopKart?
 
 
  --
 
  Yours,
 
  Kym Kovan
  mbcomms.net.au
 
 
 

 

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Matthew Williams


  My problem with this Kart is the amount of holes in it.  I had an 
entire server brought down from defacement from this... however, some of 
that was the lack of sandboxing the app to its own space.  Essentially, 
it was not validating ANY user input (or URL input) and allowing script 
kiddies access to the DB and its result set in the title of every page 
of the site based on the URL params you passed in.  It didn't store 
username/password combination in the database, and once they were in to 
the admin page, they had free reign to upload pages at will.  I closed 
this hole on my local copy, and will never use this code for any other 
kart again ever.  I'm rolling my own for all future clients.


Matthew Williams
Geodesic GraFX
www.geodesicgrafx.com/blog

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Re: CF Shopping carts



 Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there.


In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be
even remotely true.
Sean has always had a great ability to just say it like it is-- And I have
to agree with him this time--
Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out
people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning
that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says
something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be
wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ).

This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just
confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to
other OS community's.
Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of
time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free
T-shirts* :)
If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the
statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees
associated with them-- thats it.

I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you
are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the
wrong business.
The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it
will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the
real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact.
If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly
what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my
own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it.
Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred
dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a
developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be
afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even
viable at all.
Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart
yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could
even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in
the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer.
Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if
not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount
compared to doing it yourself.
I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on
a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA
looks at 6 figure bills every year.

Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation
is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is
friends of your uncle Joe :)
This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our
community and what it will take to pull it off.


Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people
who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and
have something of value to say.
Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12
years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital
of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a
FOSS CF cart.

Anyone with me? Or am I on my own?

-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Eric Roberts


I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also doesn't
matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done,
but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.  My
client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise unemployed
right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till
my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.  I
wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
world with a family to take care of.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts



 Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there.


In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be
even remotely true.
Sean has always had a great ability to just say it like it is-- And I have
to agree with him this time--
Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out
people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning
that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says
something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be
wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ).

This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just
confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to
other OS community's.
Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of
time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free
T-shirts* :)
If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the
statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees
associated with them-- thats it.

I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you
are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the
wrong business.
The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it
will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the
real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact.
If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly
what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my
own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it.
Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred
dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a
developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be
afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even
viable at all.
Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart
yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could
even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in
the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer.
Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if
not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount
compared to doing it yourself.
I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on
a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA
looks at 6 figure bills every year.

Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation
is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is
friends of your uncle Joe :)
This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our
community and what it will take to pull it off.


Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people
who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and
have something of value to say.
Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12
years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital
of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a
FOSS CF cart.

Anyone with me? Or am I on my own?

-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




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Archive: 
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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Sean Corfield


On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Eric Roberts
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:
 While I am glad you and Sean are rolling in the dough

We've already been over this in another thread on this list a little
while back, when I explained my financial situation because of a
similar attack on me - by you - during the ColdFusion Builder thread.

Here's my reply to you there:
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:332221

And here's the full thread where you were the first to respond,
criticizing Adobe for charging $299 for ColdFusion Builder:

http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/thread.cfm/threadid:61097
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Michael Grant


C'mon Eric. Let's keep these types of comments on cf-comm where they belong.
okees? :)

Does it need to be cf? Could you use paypal shopping cart?
Something that's more geared towards a higher transaction fee but no upfront
cost?
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/xcl/rec/sc-intro-outside




On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:01 PM, Eric Roberts 
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:


 I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also
 doesn't
 matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done,
 but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
 regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.  My
 client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
 promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise unemployed
 right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
 agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till
 my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
 little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
 are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
 Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.  I
 wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
 world with a family to take care of.

 -Original Message-
 From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


 
  Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there.


 In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be
 even remotely true.
 Sean has always had a great ability to just say it like it is-- And I
 have
 to agree with him this time--
 Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out
 people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning
 that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he
 says
 something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be
 wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ).

 This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just
 confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to
 other OS community's.
 Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of
 time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free
 T-shirts* :)
 If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the
 statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees
 associated with them-- thats it.

 I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when
 you
 are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the
 wrong business.
 The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it
 will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for
 the
 real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact.
 If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know
 exactly
 what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my
 own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it.
 Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred
 dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or
 a
 developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can
 be
 afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even
 viable at all.
 Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart
 yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could
 even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in
 the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer.
 Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if
 not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount
 compared to doing it yourself.
 I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on
 a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA
 looks at 6 figure bills every year.

 Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this
 conversation
 is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is
 friends of your uncle Joe :)
 This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our
 community and what it will take to pull it off.


 Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially
 people
 who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and
 have something of value to say.
 Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12
 years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital
 of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a
 FOSS CF cart.

 Anyone with me

Re: CF Shopping carts

@eric, in all respect of you, and all hard working people. Please don't
assume that we are all rolling in cash just because we have some insight on
critical business decisions.
I am currently working my pile of receipts and bills-- as I too am
struggling in a bad economy-- I too am all 1090-- have been for over 20
years.
I also raised a stepdaughter (24 in grad school), maintain our health
insurance etc... all on a self educated career. Built on the back of giants
(like Mr. Corfield).
But I also work 16+ hours a day, and wouldn't think twice about flipping
burgers if I had too to afford a tool that would make me better at my job..

Seans statements were not elitist BS.. you are incorrect.
Maybe there are edge cases like yours that do not fit his generalizations,
but the general statement is still true.
If you want Free, it is out there-- but you insist on stating that its a lot
of money for software, but it is just not--
You have a ton of options for your friend, I too do charity work, quite
often-- But I don't use enterprise level software like CF-- I use
PHP/OSC/PAYPAL etc.
There are tons of FREE solutions, you are looking for oranges in an apple
tree my friend :)

There are too many analogy's for this for me to iterate.

I *don't* have a pile of cash, but I *don't* consider Sean's statements to
be elitist.

--
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

~|
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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread mark


Blah, blah, blah.

@ Kevin.  I am pretty much a newbie, but I'm good for documentation writing,
testing, whatever.  Good for several hour/week. Could also pitch in a few
dollars if that doesn't violate the FOSS'ness.  

Mark

-Original Message-
From: Eric Roberts [mailto:ow...@threeravensconsulting.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 9:02 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: RE: CF Shopping carts


I think you assume too much.  First off...I'm not a newbie.  It also doesn't
matter who said it.  I have a lot of respect for Sean and what he has done,
but that doesn't negate the fact that his comments were elitist BS,
regardless if he is telling it like it is...that is just a cop out.  My
client can't afford much.  I am actually doing this job as a favor on
promise of payment as he can afford it.  As I am also otherwise unemployed
right now I also can't afford it.  Most of the consulting I do is via
agencies, but my last one was 1099, so no unemployment to hold me out till
my next contract. (we just recently moved and pretty much depleted what
little we had in savings to accomplish that) While I am glad you and Sean
are rolling in the dough, that is not the case for everyone.  Yours and
Sean's assumption that $200 or $500 is chump change is pretty elitist.  I
wish I had the ability to dump that kind of cash, but I live in the real
world with a family to take care of.

-Original Message-
From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 7:52 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts



 Sorry if I don't buy the BS elitist attitude there.


In defense of Seans comments, I do not see this above statement to be
even remotely true.
Sean has always had a great ability to just say it like it is-- And I have
to agree with him this time--
Please take Sean's statements for what they are, he is not singling out
people or projecting an elitist POV-- he is a powerful voice of reasoning
that has considerable and very valuable experience in this field, if he says
something you do not agree with, there is a very good chance you could be
wrong. ( I know this from my personal ego battles with myself ).

This type of bashing is not doing anything productive, and in fact is just
confirming what Sean said is the problems with the CF community compared to
other OS community's.
Especially someone like *Sean Corfield* who contributes a huge amount of
time and awesome code for FREE -- (-*-reminder to self. send Sean more free
T-shirts* :)
If you need something for free it is out there-- you can find it-- but the
statement Sean made was just making a point about software and fees
associated with them-- thats it.

I have to agree with Sean too, if a few hundred dollars is too much when you
are looking for a paid CF cart compared to rolling your own you are in the
wrong business.
The people shouldn't even hire you to do it, because in the long-run, it
will cost them 10 times to pay someone who is inept then to just pay for the
real deal from the get-go-- that is a simple fact.
If you ever have to inherit some newbie's legacy code, you will know exactly
what I am talking about-- I was a newbie once too-- I have inherited all my
own legacy apps-- and man did I suck at it.
Even a struggling business in a poor economy should have a few hundred
dollars-- I mean if 3-400 dollars has to be even discussed by a company or a
developer when trying to decide if this important part of the project can be
afforded or not, one must really consider if the business model is even
viable at all.
Especially if the software is complete-- the time to develop a cart
yourself, or modify one of the existing FOSS solutions that could
even remotely compare to just the limited solutions that are available in
the CF world, would easily take months-- if not longer.
Ill bet even CFShopCart (even with its flaws) took hundreds of hours-- if
not longer to build-- the money spent on it would be a huge discount
compared to doing it yourself.
I deal with 9 clients right now, and they deal with 6 figure decisions on
a daily basis, as do many mom and pops-- yes every corner store in the USA
looks at 6 figure bills every year.

Sean does know what he is talking about-- he really does-- this conversation
is not about the one-off bs contract job for a startup mom and pops that is
friends of your uncle Joe :)
This is about bringing something (FOSSCFCART) that does not exist to our
community and what it will take to pull it off.


Now that is out, I am glad to see some people responding-- especially people
who have positive influence on the CF community (you know who you are) and
have something of value to say.
Like I mentioned, I am willing to put my resources into this-- I have 12
years experience in the eCommerce world and I have the backing and capital
of many well known clients who are all willing to put real resources into a
FOSS CF cart.

Anyone with me? Or am I on my own?

-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty

Re: CF Shopping carts


@Mark

Awesome, Thats the attitude!

I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese.
When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that
is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even
started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry.

Thanks for the positivity.


-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


~|
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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread mark


No problem...but just an FYI, I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple CF FOSS
attempts get as far as a committee/planning stage.  Here's to hoping this
one gets further.  What about a paid approach...maybe a paid plug in for
Railo?  Free licenses for those who contribute?  Maybe base it on FW/1? 

Not at all against FOSS, just want to see this work.

Mark 


-Original Message-
From: Kevin Pepperman [mailto:chorno...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 9:39 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


@Mark

Awesome, Thats the attitude!

I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese.
When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that
is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even
started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry.

Thanks for the positivity.


-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin




~|
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http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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Re: CF Shopping carts


@mark

I would love to see the cart be framework agnostic-- then have the ability
to have demos on various frameworks.
I do think CF has matured to the point where this can be done.

Usually things like this fail because they don't have the right combination
of resources, planning, drive, and ability-- the first item being the most
important.
I think we have started something that has access to all those things
already--
Time will tell.



-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-28 Thread Sean Corfield


On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Kevin Pepperman chorno...@gmail.com wrote:
 I am in the process of consulting with an attorney just for legalese.
 When I get the domain set up, I want to start with a foundation that
 is driven by the community-- that way the base code is not even
 started until we have a good idea of what the foundation should carry.

You might want to talk to Jason Delmore @ 4cff.org since they've
already gone through the whole incorporation as a not-for-profit stuff
in order to provide OSS software with infrastructure and legal
backing...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: CF Shopping carts


Thanks Sean.
Any input on this is immensely helpful.
I have participated in several OSS projects but I have never started one,
but I do have the backing, ability and determination.

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 11:38 PM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote:

 You might want to talk to Jason Delmore @ 4cff.org since they've
 already gone through the whole incorporation as a not-for-profit stuff
 in order to provide OSS software with infrastructure and legal
 backing...







-- 
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin


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Re: CF Shopping carts


On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Mary Jo Sminkey mary...@cfwebstore.com wrote:
 There's a lot of pitfalls to using open source software for ecommerce (and 
 yes, I may be biased, but I also speak from lots of experience in this 
 field). Anyone that has spent anytime with OSCommerce knows how convoluted 
 the code has become from years of many people messing with it.

That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the
quality of the coders who've been working on it (and that can be a
general problem in the CF community and why so many complaints are
cropping up in this thread about how hard the various e-commerce
packages are to work with - and you hear it of many OSS CF projects).

 Most of my customers will agree...they are paying just as much for the 
 support they get as for the code itself. Knowing that if something goes wrong 
 or stops working, they have someone to go to that will get it working for 
 them again. With something as mission critical as most ecommerce sites are, 
 that's usually worth a few bucks to get, versus saving some up-front with OSS 
 and then being on your own should any problems arise.

Absolutely and that's what the POSS - Professional Open Source
Software - model is all about: free software, paid support (like
MySQL, JBoss, Red Hat - even Transfer ORM and ColdBox in the CF
community).

I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free
e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to
review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are
definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the
difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to
understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad
by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the
various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex
part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given
developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people
find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand.
Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework
code itself.

I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even
a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep
asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the
CF community because developers won't donate their time for free -
they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not
willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF
offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a
culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers
tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for
free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are
definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go
before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system
of FOSS we envy in other communities...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: CF Shopping carts


...reviewed a *few* e-commerce packages... (I have 'free' on the brain :)

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 10:03 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com wrote:
 I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free
 e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to
 review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are
 definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the
 difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to
 understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad
 by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the
 various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex
 part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given
 developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people
 find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand.
 Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework
 code itself.

 I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even
 a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep
 asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the
 CF community because developers won't donate their time for free -
 they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not
 willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF
 offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a
 culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers
 tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for
 free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are
 definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go
 before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system
 of FOSS we envy in other communities...

~|
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http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology-Michael-Dinowitz/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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RE: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-27 Thread Eric Roberts


Sean, 

I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an
inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy.

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2010 12:03 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF Shopping carts


On Fri, Jun 25, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Mary Jo Sminkey mary...@cfwebstore.com
wrote:
 There's a lot of pitfalls to using open source software for ecommerce (and
yes, I may be biased, but I also speak from lots of experience in this
field). Anyone that has spent anytime with OSCommerce knows how convoluted
the code has become from years of many people messing with it.

That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the
quality of the coders who've been working on it (and that can be a
general problem in the CF community and why so many complaints are
cropping up in this thread about how hard the various e-commerce
packages are to work with - and you hear it of many OSS CF projects).

 Most of my customers will agree...they are paying just as much for the
support they get as for the code itself. Knowing that if something goes
wrong or stops working, they have someone to go to that will get it working
for them again. With something as mission critical as most ecommerce sites
are, that's usually worth a few bucks to get, versus saving some up-front
with OSS and then being on your own should any problems arise.

Absolutely and that's what the POSS - Professional Open Source
Software - model is all about: free software, paid support (like
MySQL, JBoss, Red Hat - even Transfer ORM and ColdBox in the CF
community).

I'm finding this thread very interesting because I've reviewed a free
e-commerce packages (some out of curiosity, some I've been paid to
review) and whilst the code is almost always procedural, some are
definitely more maintainable than others (so I suspect some of the
difficulty expressed in this thread also comes from an inability to
understand halfway complex code). As Mary Jo says, procedural != bad
by definition but shopping carts tend to be fairly complex due to the
various demands placed on them and they may well be the most complex
part of a site, which may mean they're the most complex code a given
developer has ever encountered. It's the same reason that many people
find application frameworks extremely complex and hard to understand.
Perfectly understandable and not actually a criticism of the framework
code itself.

I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even
a few hundred dollars for something of value - and that folks keep
asking for OSS (when they really mean free), yet OSS struggles in the
CF community because developers won't donate their time for free -
they want to be paid. So, hey, you want to be paid but you're not
willing to pay for other developers' work? When you compare CF
offerings to PHP offerings, remember that you're comparing against a
culture of FOSS: LAMP is all free and open source and its developers
tend to be much more amenable to giving work back to the community for
free and contributing to other people's projects. Things are
definitely improving in the CF world but we've got a long way to go
before our collective mindset will lend itself to the rich eco-system
of FOSS we envy in other communities...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood



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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-27 Thread Matt Robertson

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts wrote:
I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an
inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy.

Not to derail this into a lets-beat-on-Eric thread, but as others
mentioned, thats peanuts. Something is wrong with your business model
if you are in this business and a fee like that knocks you out of the
game. Not bagging on you... I'm just sayin'... and I'm saying it as
someone who started coding in an office that was a spare bedroom in my
apartment... sitting on a plastic lawn chair. I did mom-and-pop
retail work and there are some jobs you *have* to say no to, unless
you've got nothing else and your time isn't worth anything (i.e. the
time you'd save not rolling your own solution... you could be on to
and getting paid for your next job).

I'm not sure CF lends itself to the mom-and-pop operation, where the
expectation is that you can get an ecommerce site for $500, three bags
of Doritos and a case of Jolt. There's plenty of college-student
developers out there who work for those rates and if you play in those
waters you'll never get past that.

A fair question to ask: Is the small business ecommerce market such
today that it pays NOT to be involved with it? i.e. all the
free/cheap/just-add-water solutions out there... Can a developer who
wants to earn a good rate for their time get there at all anymore with
ecommerce? Does that perhaps explain the dearth of solutions?

--
-...@robertson--
Janitor, The Robertson Team
mysecretbase.com

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Re: CF Shopping carts

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 3:10 PM, Eric Roberts
ow...@threeravensconsulting.com wrote:
I wouldn't say it's an objection to paying a few hundred dollars, it's an
inability to come up with the funds to do so for the little guy.

I'm sorry, but if the little guy can't afford $200 or even $400 for
some software that makes his job possible / easier, then he doesn't
deserve to be in business.

What on earth kind of living can someone be making from selling
software services where a few hundred bucks can't be covered by their
rate on a project? That's crazy talk.

As Matt R and other have said: thats peanuts.

I feel the same when I hear people complain about how they can't
afford to attend conferences. It's bullshit if you care about your
career and actually make a living out of it! All the time I've been
freelance (three occasions, up to five years a piece), I've set aside
money for training / conferences as part of my career plan so that I
stay current and marketable and I learn shit that makes me a better,
more productive developer. Stuff like this is just the cost of doing
business in this industry. Professionals invest in themselves.

If someone is really living hand-to-mouth as a software developer and
can't afford a few hundred dollars on software, then they need to go
get a new career. Software pays well and if you can't make money at
it...
--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://getrailo.com/
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive.
-- Margaret Atwood

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Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-27 Thread Kevin Pepperman

That's not an inherent problem with OSS, more a problem with the
quality of the coders who've been working on it

In the case of OsCommerce and the variations of that platform this really is
only partially true.
I agree in the fact that code contributions are only as good as the
contributers, but I think the base OSC platform never really had a solid
foundation for implementing plugins.
There are so many ways to do things and no real standards for their
requirements, so one module will use the existing language files,
install/remove routines and the next wont-- If there were actual
requirements or conventions that always had to be followed it would still be
convoluted to even a good PHP coder.

CRE loaded and Zen cart tried to move past those limitations and they were
somewhat successful but the documentation was limited.
Anyone who has learned how the RCO and RCI (runtime include/override)
systems; And the actual template systems in CRE Loaded will tell you that
that idea was half baked into an already convoluted code base.

I do find it a little ironic that there's an objection to paying even
a few hundred dollars for something of value

I do agree with the point that no-one should reject a few hundred dollar(or
more) fee for a solution, I have gone down that path as well with several
projects.
But out of the box everything needed just as much work as the free
offerings, and frankly they were no better--
Actually when it came to implementing new features, OSC was always the best
even with its shortcomings, once I got to know it. I feel like that
was purely because there was community help, and you were working with a
code base that had hundreds of examples.
And when something was needed that I couldn't understand, I could always pay
for help.
That is what people are really looking for, not just free code-- but a
community of people that have forums/groups with examples and documentation
of common pitfalls and duh moments.
I have seen a few company's spend thousands++ on proprietary solutions only
to find out the code was hugely complex, and there was no forums/community
support at all.
Only the company sells 200$/hr support, and will be available sometime next
month.. maybe.

(so I suspect some of the difficulty expressed in this thread also comes
from an inability to understand halfway complex code)

This sorta go's without saying, but this also the same reason people use an
IPhone, it is simple and just works, it may not do everything for you but
you don't need a manual and a month to understand how to use it.
It is not so much the complexity of the applications or that fact they
are procedural, it is the simple fact that you cant just add a simple
feature without understanding a huge portion of the code-base or without
causing errors in completely unrelated code.
Though this is partially a good thing since once it is installed you are
getting plenty of work in maintenance fees,but it sorta sucks for the new
people, or the 22 yr old webmasters who inherit some legacy apps.
Apache/Tomcat/PHP/MySql/Railo/OpenBd/CFML are simple to install, simple to
use, and above all simple to get involved with-- that is what inspires new
developers-- if we make things complicated to use, only complicated people
will use them.
People do want things that are easy, that is why FW1 has taken off so well,
the concepts are relatively easy to grasp and you don't have to be a genius
to use it :)
I think the future of web based software really sits on this type of
service, like the type of model Railo has-- give the application/code for
free, but also sell support packages--

haha.. American Idol would never be watchable if they didn't all get some
actual good advice from Simon-- (don't quit your day job-- because frankly
you are a terrible singer-- simply awful)
Though it sounds so much better with an accent.
This is very true Sean, that is one thing I learned years ago-- it costs
money and takes time to be a programmer-- if you think you can do it for
free and easy, then get another career.
This wont happen for free, that is why I offered money and time-- and my
own experience.

I am happy we are getting some varied input on this, maybe the heat of
conversation can give the idea some momentum.

--
/Kevin Pepperman

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety,
deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

Re: CF Shopping carts

2010-06-27 Thread Andrew Clarke

On 2010-06-27, at 20:57, Sean Corfield wrote:

I'm sorry, but if the little guy can't afford $200 or even $400 for
some software that makes his job possible / easier, then he doesn't
deserve to be in business.

What on earth kind of living can someone be making from selling
software services where a few hundred bucks can't be covered by their
rate on a project? That's crazy talk.

As Matt R and other have said: thats peanuts.

The flip side of the pricing equation is that possibly 50% of the people
willing to spend $400 on a shopping cart might be willing to spend $2000, and
would feel like they got a better product because it was two thousand dollars.

I've never successfully convinced a client to use an off-the-shelf shopping
cart package. Maybe it happened when I was just starting consulting, but I
can't remember that far back :-) Nowadays I'm either working with a system
that's already been built, or clients seem to think that their needs are
sufficiently more complex and specific than everyone else's, and no matter how
much I try to convince them to evaluate a pre-built system, they have always
wanted me to build one from scratch. So I do.

The conversation about training and conferences is a little OT, but I'll pitch
in as it's something I've been thinking about anyway. I've been developing
ColdFusion apps for about 14 years now and I've never attended a CF conference.
I have been sent to conferences occasionally by employers (when I wasn't
self-employed) and have mostly found them to be a waste of time. Everyone
learns differently and I'm just as happy keeping the money in my pocket,
skipping the conference, and learning on my own. Reading blogs is a great way
to pick up others' opinions (thanks everyone) and I see enough of other
peoples' code that I still even occasionally learn something.

The great thing about conferences, I suppose, is being seen. I've reached the
point in my career where it probably would help to be seen more, so if you see
me at a conference you can laugh at me for making this comment here :-) In the
next year or so I'm going to try to hit a security conference and maybe a
ColdFusion one too.

- Andrew.

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Re: CF Shopping carts