subject:"Re\: Source control in CF"


Good tips about developers being able to run software under other licensing 
rules - I did not think that one through fully I can see now.

I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say, that 
developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as set up 3rd 
party components etc. To me, that is like saying that any developer should be 
able to set up a database server, know how DNS functions etc.

While I would agree, that knowing some of these things could be beneficial for 
a developer from time to time, I feel that developers should be specialists who 
focus solely on developing - not on server maintenance.

I don't know if this might be a cultural difference (in terms of how things are 
done) - me being Danish personally - but in all places I've worked the last 10 
years, the IT department has done most of the configuration and maintenance of 
developer machines. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with 
developers setting things up themselves, but I understand (from the company's 
perspective) how it can be beneficial to have these things centralized.

Following the previous inputs in this thread, I went digging in my old emails 
and it turns out (I had completely forgotten about this) that we did indeed 
talk about switching over from shared resources, to each developer running 
their own complete setup. The plans were eventually dropped, as it was deemed 
too expensive (in terms of lost productivity) and adding an additional layer of 
complexity in terms of maintenance.

This was back in 2007 and perhaps it is time to revisit this once more. You 
guys' passionate arguments for this approach has certainly given me some food 
for thought and I will take this up with my colleagues in the near future. 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Andrew Scott


Michael,

Most developers should know how to install ColdFusion, it is dead simple to
begin with, maintaining it well that is another story.

But what interests me is this statement

*The plans were eventually dropped, as it was deemed too expensive (in
terms of lost productivity) and adding an additional layer of complexity in
terms of maintenance.*

Lost productivity is worse when all developers share and code off the same
server, whether you want to believe that or not. But like you said it was
5-6 years ago, so a revisit might be a good thing.


-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 Good tips about developers being able to run software under other
 licensing rules - I did not think that one through fully I can see now.

 I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say,
 that developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as
 set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is like saying that any
 developer should be able to set up a database server, know how DNS
 functions etc.

 While I would agree, that knowing some of these things could be beneficial
 for a developer from time to time, I feel that developers should be
 specialists who focus solely on developing - not on server maintenance.

 I don't know if this might be a cultural difference (in terms of how
 things are done) - me being Danish personally - but in all places I've
 worked the last 10 years, the IT department has done most of the
 configuration and maintenance of developer machines. Not that there is
 necessarily anything wrong with developers setting things up themselves,
 but I understand (from the company's perspective) how it can be beneficial
 to have these things centralized.

 Following the previous inputs in this thread, I went digging in my old
 emails and it turns out (I had completely forgotten about this) that we did
 indeed talk about switching over from shared resources, to each developer
 running their own complete setup. The plans were eventually dropped, as it
 was deemed too expensive (in terms of lost productivity) and adding an
 additional layer of complexity in terms of maintenance.

 This was back in 2007 and perhaps it is time to revisit this once more.
 You guys' passionate arguments for this approach has certainly given me
 some food for thought and I will take this up with my colleagues in the
 near future.

 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Raymond Camden


Michael, I've noticed you, and others, have mentioned server maintenance.
To be clear, I think there is a -far- difference between someone who is an
expert in Apache and IIS tuning and someone double clicking to install
Apache. I don't think developers should be fine tuning Apache, or DB
servers. But they *should* be able to run a visual installer and accept the
defaults. I run MySQL and SQL Server just fine. I don't consider myself
even close to being a DBA, but I can make a database and tables and that
should be good enough I'd say.



On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 Good tips about developers being able to run software under other
 licensing rules - I did not think that one through fully I can see now.

 I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say,
 that developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as
 set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is like saying that any
 developer should be able to set up a database server, know how DNS
 functions etc.

 While I would agree, that knowing some of these things could be beneficial
 for a developer from time to time, I feel that developers should be
 specialists who focus solely on developing - not on server maintenance.

 I don't know if this might be a cultural difference (in terms of how
 things are done) - me being Danish personally - but in all places I've
 worked the last 10 years, the IT department has done most of the
 configuration and maintenance of developer machines. Not that there is
 necessarily anything wrong with developers setting things up themselves,
 but I understand (from the company's perspective) how it can be beneficial
 to have these things centralized.

 Following the previous inputs in this thread, I went digging in my old
 emails and it turns out (I had completely forgotten about this) that we did
 indeed talk about switching over from shared resources, to each developer
 running their own complete setup. The plans were eventually dropped, as it
 was deemed too expensive (in terms of lost productivity) and adding an
 additional layer of complexity in terms of maintenance.

 This was back in 2007 and perhaps it is time to revisit this once more.
 You guys' passionate arguments for this approach has certainly given me
 some food for thought and I will take this up with my colleagues in the
 near future.

 

~|
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Re: Source control in CF


@Andrew

Most developers should know how to install ColdFusion, it is dead simple to
begin with, maintaining it well that is another story.

If your premise is that we are talking about developers who are running a setup 
where each person has a local CF server on his/her machine, then I would agree 
that it might very well be beneficial for developers to be able to diagnose and 
fix issues with their own server, without having to wait for the IT department.

Lost productivity is worse when all developers share and code off the same
server, whether you want to believe that or not. But like you said it was
5-6 years ago, so a revisit might be a good thing.

If you are talking from personal experience, having run both types of setups in 
parallel (either at the same time or at least under as similar conditions as 
possible, in terms of time, tasks, complexity etc) - then this is indeed 
valuable insight.

However, if I went to my CEO with such a broad and general claim, he would 
immediately demand that I back it up with hard evidence - which I would have a 
terrible time doing. Without concrete evidence, I don't know how I would lobby 
in favor of the company spending the time and money, in changing our current 
setup.

With that being said, if I was to setup up development from scratch tomorrow 
and I could choose either of the two setups (the current setup was already 
firmly in place when I joined the company in 2005) - I would probably also 
favor the setup where each developer runs his/her own server and can develop 
locally. 

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Re: Source control in CF


Michael, I've noticed you, and others, have mentioned server maintenance.
To be clear, I think there is a -far- difference between someone who is an
expert in Apache and IIS tuning and someone double clicking to install
Apache. I don't think developers should be fine tuning Apache, or DB
servers. But they *should* be able to run a visual installer and accept the
defaults. I run MySQL and SQL Server just fine. I don't consider myself
even close to being a DBA, but I can make a database and tables and that
should be good enough I'd say.


Raymond, I absolutely agree, that we must discern between developers being able 
to do simple point-and-click installs and configurations - and them been able 
to do deep-level server analysis and tuning.

And you are absolutely right, developers should know about databases and 
tables, and be able to create tables using the correct datatypes, relations, 
constraints etc.

But I also understand, why the IT department might impose restrictions as to 
who is able to do what (we cannot, for example, create new databases ourselves 
- only the IT department can do that). They are the ones who are ultimately 
held responsible for the performance, stability and security of the servers 
(not the code that we write) - and I understand that them imposing restrictions 
can aid in that.

But like I wrote in response to Andrew's comments - if I was to setup 
development anew tomorrow, I would probably also favor a setup where each 
developer can develop locally, without it interfering with other developers. 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Andrew Scott


Hard evidence, I will give you the worst case scenario.

Joe has opened a file and begun working on a file, in your current setup
that means the file will be locked from other developers, now he has gone
to lunch and within 5 minutes another developer needs to make changes to
that file. While one developer waits for Joe to return he can't test his
changes, as he is waiting for that one file to be unlocked to finish his
current task.

Also, when developers are modifying off the same code base on the same
server, developers tend to introduce problems to other developers and they
end up trying to fix phantom bugs or spend time finding a problem that just
magically goes away when the the other developer realizes that he screwed
up.

I could go on and on, but that last one is the worst one of them all. There
is nothing worse than trying to fix something that another developer
introduced and then fixed and sent you trying to see what you did wrong
only to find out that the other developer later fixed it. Yes this does
still happen in a revision control system, but rule of thumb is that any
code should not be committed until the developer has fixed the code and ran
his/her unit tests and once they have merged and and tested again then they
should commit the completed task back to the source repository.

Seriously I think you should have a good think about this for a minute or
maybe five, I had the same argument with a job I worked in some time ago.
Where I was chasing phantom bugs and wasting my time fixing things in a
similar situation, and the testers also testing on this, means they report
bugs that really aren't there, makes for so much loss of productivity it is
not funny.


-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Cameron Childress


On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:

 I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say,
 that developers should be able to maintain CF and web server, as well as
 set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is like saying that any
 developer should be able to set up a database server, know how DNS
 functions etc.


Personally, I would consider any developer who 1) could not setup a
database server and 2) does not have a solid understanding of DNS to be
fairly unemployable. Different organizations have different standards, but
I can't even imagine where I would start to find a developer who doesn't
know how to setup a database server.

-Cameron

...


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Russ Michaels


One of the primary reasons a developer should have a clue what happens on
the server is so they can actually debug and diagnose problems instead of
saying to their client/boss it must be the hosts fault, lets get a new
host, which is hardly ever the cause of the problem.
I have seen plenty of devs make such suggestions to others as well with no
basis.
A complete lack of understanding of server  security can also cause untold
issues, with apps being insecure, or again assuming problems with the host.
The number of times I have seen people say they need a host who allows
cfexecute, or allows cfile to read/write anywhete on the aerver, completely
oblivious of what a huge security issue this is.
Just last week we had a customer who wanted remote desktop access to a
shared server and the ability to upload dll's, and this was coming from
their developer.

I can honestly say that most devs we deal with have absolutely no idea what
goes on beyond ftping their files to the server, everything beyond this is
a black box to them.

Its rather like being a mechanic but saying i just fix em, but I have no
idea how the engine works.

Regards
Russ Michaels
www.michaels.me.uk
www.cfmldeveloper.com - Free CFML hosting for developers
www.cfsearch.com - CF search engine


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Re: Source control in CF


@Russ

I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which constitutes 
a quote-unquote developer.

In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is 
essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car, unless you 
were a mechanic.
I feel differently about this, as I would rather hire a chauffeur to drive me 
around than a mechanic - but this is my personal preference of course.

Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change it? 
Absolutely.
Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine 
management system? Absolutely not.

In the same way I personally feel, that although a developer should know (or be 
able to deduce) about potential security issues like the ones you describe, I 
would not expect him to know about all the internals of the server.

If nothing else, I think we can safely say, that Mr. Camden would not employee 
me, as I would much rather leave setting up servers and the likes, to those who 
specialize in precisely that :)

(oh and on a side note, I find it very interesing to learn about the obviously 
different views expressed in this thread - gives a man something to ponder) 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Andrew Scott


No what Ray is saying is that a developer should be able to turn the car on
and drive it, but to maintain the car you need professional help with it.

Michael I think you need to stop for a minute, a developer should know
there way around the Administrator, they should also know how to add sites
to Apache and IIS and be able to install software, but to luck it down and
fully secure it, then yes leave that to those who know and developer
machines don't need that. And if they are exposed to the internet then you
have more bigger issues than you comparisons listed below.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411




On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 @Russ

 I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which
 constitutes a quote-unquote developer.

 In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is
 essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car, unless
 you were a mechanic.
 I feel differently about this, as I would rather hire a chauffeur to drive
 me around than a mechanic - but this is my personal preference of course.

 Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change
 it? Absolutely.
 Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine
 management system? Absolutely not.

 In the same way I personally feel, that although a developer should know
 (or be able to deduce) about potential security issues like the ones you
 describe, I would not expect him to know about all the internals of the
 server.

 If nothing else, I think we can safely say, that Mr. Camden would not
 employee me, as I would much rather leave setting up servers and the likes,
 to those who specialize in precisely that :)

 (oh and on a side note, I find it very interesing to learn about the
 obviously different views expressed in this thread - gives a man something
 to ponder)

 

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Re: Source control in CF


I admit, there may be every chance that the reason why I don't agree with you 
is that A) I am not used to an environment in which developers develop locally 
or (perhaps more frighteningly) B) I am just not very bright.

I am always willing to learn and expand my horizon though, so could you perhaps 
briefly explaine, why you consider it necessary for a developer to be able to 
set up sites on an Apache or IIS? (I assume it's not just for the sheer 
practicality of it - so that you don't have to wait around for the IT dept.) 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Russ Michaels


setting up and managing servers is quite different to having a clue about
how your app works and some basic web server knowledge. A developer
certainly does not need to know the former, but he should at least have a
clue about his own development environment and be able to set it up as
close as the live environment as possible.
A developer is not really like chauffeur, a web designer would probably fit
that analogy better, a developer is more like the mechanic. Without some
basic understanding of how things work under the hood, both the mechanic
and the developer will be relying on a lot of guesswork and luck.

You cannot rely on systems admins as they are not developers, so you will
just end up in a its your code, no its your server argument, with
neither having enough knowledge to prove otherwise.
There is only so many times you can tell your client change hosts, they
suck, before they are going to notice a pattern.


On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 @Russ

 I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which
 constitutes a quote-unquote developer.

 In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is
 essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car, unless
 you were a mechanic.
 I feel differently about this, as I would rather hire a chauffeur to drive
 me around than a mechanic - but this is my personal preference of course.

 Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change
 it? Absolutely.
 Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine
 management system? Absolutely not.

 In the same way I personally feel, that although a developer should know
 (or be able to deduce) about potential security issues like the ones you
 describe, I would not expect him to know about all the internals of the
 server.

 If nothing else, I think we can safely say, that Mr. Camden would not
 employee me, as I would much rather leave setting up servers and the likes,
 to those who specialize in precisely that :)

 (oh and on a side note, I find it very interesing to learn about the
 obviously different views expressed in this thread - gives a man something
 to ponder)

 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread C. Hatton Humphrey


If I may, I think there are some core concept differences between Michaels
scenario and the others.  What I am seeing in your questions and responses
points to a corporate structure where development is not a part of IT.
Correct me if I'm wrong there.

In many cases the structure is different, with the two being the same with
different roles but supporting each other. IT (or server admins) taking
care of the hardware, patches, and environment but leaving the development
environment to the developers themselves.  It's a subtle difference but one
that helps lessen the load and increase the skillset of the dev team.  Also
consider solo developers who have to do it all.

I have been in all three situations and will never go back to the first.
When I was first getting started I didn't know anything about servers. I
learned as much as I could from whatever sources I could, especially this
list, and now I can not only plan and build applications but also set up
both internal and external servers and deal with the management issues that
come up.

So the right answer comes down to not only how you need to handle this
situation but also how your company structure is and how much you want to
increase the skills of your development team.

Hatton


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Matt Quackenbush


On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Michael Christensen wrote:


 I admit, there may be every chance that the reason why I don't agree with
 you is that A) I am not used to an environment in which developers develop
 locally



I'd say that's a really good reason for you to have previously not agreed
with the notion of a developer being able to configure his/her own
**development** environment - you had (apparently) never seen or heard of
it before.  However, I think that's a terrible excuse to completely
discount the notion now that it has been presented to you.



 or (perhaps more frighteningly) B) I am just not very bright.



I doubt that. Lazy, perhaps? I might could see how you could say that, but
my bet is you're not exactly stoopid. ;-)




 I am always willing to learn and expand my horizon though, so could you
 perhaps briefly explaine, why you consider it necessary for a developer to
 be able to set up sites on an Apache or IIS? (I assume it's not just for
 the sheer practicality of it - so that you don't have to wait around for
 the IT dept.)



In my opinion, it is unthinkable to call oneself a developer and yet have
no clue how to configure your own ***development*** environment.  The key
here is **DEVELOPMENT** environment.  Like Ray, I would
never hire - or recommend for hire - someone to fill a developer's role if
they were unable to configure their own **development** environment. There
are many, many, many reasons for that, and saving the IT department time is
probably least among those reasons.

   - To be a developer, one has to be able to configure a **development**
   environment for oneself to work in. If one can't do that, then one can't
   develop. Development _requires_ basic understanding of how things work. It
   doesn't matter if you're talking web development, desktop development,
   rocket development, landscape development, or any other kind of
   development. Basic understanding of the environment one is developing for
   is absolutely required.

   - If someone calls themselves a developer, then I fully EXPECT them to
   not just copy/paste/churn code for whatever project I've placed them on,
   but to also tinker and play and be in a constant state of learning, even on
   their own time. If they aren't doing that, then they are simply here to be
   babysat and collect a check. I don't believe in babysitting or paying for
   people to be babysat. :-)

   - One cannot truly progress as a developer if one cannot build their own
   **development** environment. If they're dependent upon someone else to
   configure their **development** environment, then they're stuck with
   whatever they're given and will never venture outside that to see what else
   is out there. And I assure you, seeing what else is out there is
   paramount to growing and becoming better at what you do.

I tried to boil it down in just a few points, but there are many reasons
why one MUST be able to configure their own **development** environment.
This thread is filled with them.

By the way, hopefully readers of this post have noticed a recurring theme:
**development** environment.  In no way, shape, or form, do I expect a
developer to be able to set up and monitor/maintain a _production_
environment. That is an entirely different animal, and is best left to
those who specialize in (and enjoy!) the server management of things.
Having said that, I believe that it is a natural progression for a
developer to learn how to set up and maintain a server. I just don't expect
them to do that as part of their development duties.

HTH


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RE: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Eric Roberts


With most of the jobs I have had (Here in the US), web developers usually
are not only the developers, but also the DBA, sys admin, network admin,
project manager, etc...

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Michael Christensen [mailto:mich...@strib.dk] 
Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 6:11 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF


@Russ

I can certainly tell, that we have very different views as to which
constitutes a quote-unquote developer.

In keeping with the automotive analogies, I feel that what Raymond is
essentially saying, is that he would not hire you to drive a car, unless you
were a mechanic.
I feel differently about this, as I would rather hire a chauffeur to drive
me around than a mechanic - but this is my personal preference of course.

Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change
it? Absolutely.
Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine
management system? Absolutely not.

In the same way I personally feel, that although a developer should know (or
be able to deduce) about potential security issues like the ones you
describe, I would not expect him to know about all the internals of the
server.

If nothing else, I think we can safely say, that Mr. Camden would not
employee me, as I would much rather leave setting up servers and the likes,
to those who specialize in precisely that :)

(oh and on a side note, I find it very interesing to learn about the
obviously different views expressed in this thread - gives a man something
to ponder) 



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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Dave Watts


 I personally disagree, respectfully of course, with the people who say, that 
 developers should be able to maintain
 CF and web server, as well as set up 3rd party components etc. To me, that is 
 like saying that any developer
 should be able to set up a database server, know how DNS functions etc.

 While I would agree, that knowing some of these things could be beneficial 
 for a developer from time to time, I feel
 that developers should be specialists who focus solely on developing - not on 
 server maintenance.

I have to disagree with practically everything you've written here. In
my experience, many web developers simply do not know enough about
their development stack - which includes all of the items you've
mentioned. You don't have to be an expert at configuring a database
server or managing DNS, but I can't count the enormous number of times
my knowledge of both of those has saved countless hours debugging
problems. Your applications don't live in a vacuum - they interact
with all of these things. If you don't know how they work, how will
you identify problems that aren't directly in your CF code?

Here's an extreme example. Many years ago, I was helping some CF
developers who were building an application that relied on custom
functionality in the browser - a Netscape browser plugin, to be exact.
This plugin was written in C++. The developer of the plugin worked
offsite, and had the plugin working on her development environment.
The CF guys couldn't get it to work on their development environment,
though, and had been fighting with it for several months. It turns out
that the offsite development environment had debug libraries, and the
local one did not - it was as simple as that. Countless hours were
shot to hell because nobody on the CF team knew how to check for
dependencies, because it was outside their scope. I fortunately knew
how to do this, I did it and discovered the problem the first day I
was there.

Many years ago, when I was in the military, I drove a tank. But I also
learned how to be a gunner, loader, and tank commander - not because I
would have to do those things regularly, but because a good driver has
to know how those other jobs work in order to do his own job.

Now, to wrap this up, I did say practically everything. I don't
think you have to be an expert on server maintenance. But you have to
know the basics on how all the components in your application stack
work. And for that matter, there are very few experts on CF server
maintenance who aren't CF developers. If you ask the average server
administrator how best to manage CF, you're probably going to get a
blank stare in response. Hell, I developed a class for CF
administration for this very reason - I ran into so many clients who
simply didn't know what they were doing (and this remains the case to
this very day).

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-02-02 Thread Dave Watts


 Would I expect my chauffeur to be able to diagnose a flat tire and change it? 
 Absolutely.
 Would I expect him to be able to diagnose and fix a problem in the engine 
 management system? Absolutely not.

There's a potentially large range of items between those two. I think
you would find that most professional drivers are actually pretty good
at simple car repairs.

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-31 Thread Cameron Childress


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 5:51 PM, Michael Christensen wrote:

 For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server
 and all code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for
 convenience) works quite well and has done so without major snafus for 10+
 years.


Michael-

I've worked with a shop in the past that used one development server
successfully (with Perforce) bu giving each developer their own directory
on the server to each put their own copy of the code. This helps in cases
where you may have complicated server software that you don't want to
instal on everyone's desktops, but still means someone's setting up the
code a bunch of times in a bunch or directories.

In that case, each developer had their own port on the webserver mapped to
their copy of the code. this let people play in their own protected little
sandboxes, but still on one central server. Might be food for thought in
your case.

However, for the record, I wholeheartedly agree with the recommendation to
consider moving to a local development model. If you are brave, you can
even tinker with that idea without making the whole team do it. Just set
things up on your own local computer and give it a week or two of working
that way to see if it's really as hard as you think. You may be surprised.

-Cameron

-- 
Cameron Childress
--
p:   678.637.5072
im: cameroncf
facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf |
twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc |
google+ https://profiles.google.com/u/0/117829379451708140985


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-31 Thread Billy Cravens


To build on this idea, look at Vagrant. It allows your IT department (or 
whoever's responsible) to maintain a script that loads a VM, necessary assets, 
and code. I've written a Vagrant script for Railo:

https://github.com/bdcravens/railo-vagrant

Here's a Chef recipe Nathan Mische wrote for CF10 (which can be used in a 
Vagrant setup):
https://github.com/nmische/chef-coldfusion10

Vagrant is awesome. Run a script, get a VM. Dev against a local directory on 
your machine, and check into source code repo as necessary. When you're done, 
shut the machine off. The shared directories don't go away (so you keep working 
code), but everything else does, until you need to spin it up again. Currently 
works against VirtualBox, VMWare coming soon.



Billy Cravens
bdcrav...@gmail.com



On Jan 30, 2013, at 6:52 PM, Andy Ousterhout a...@omygoodness.com wrote:

 
 Why not just have a local VMware image for developer unit testing?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jan 31, 2013, at 7:51 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:
 
 
 First of, let me thank all of you for your (quite lively) inputs.
 
 The discussion did spiral a bit out of control in a GIT vs SVN tussle, but I 
 understand and can respect that people have strong opinions as to which 
 systems they prefer.
 
 I also wholeheartedly agree, that there are certain advantages to be gained 
 by each developer having a working copy of the code on their local machines.
 I would, however, contest the absoluteness of this as the only way to go.
 
 While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each 
 developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time 
 spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our 
 backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
 Add in the cost of additional licenses for 3rd party components (like 
 ImageGlue or ISAPI rewrite for example) and the cost of being able to run 
 code locally can add up quite quickly.
 
 For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server and 
 all code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for 
 convenience) works quite well and has done so without major snafus for 10+ 
 years.
 
 Is this an oldschool approach? Very much so.
 Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.
 
 I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very 
 difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted 
 the question initially.
 
 I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how we 
 will proceed from here.
 
 If any of you, who are running a setup where each developer runs the code 
 locally, I would be very appreciative if you could give me 30 minutes to an 
 hour of your time, so I might pick your brain as to how you have gone about 
 getting this setup and how you maintain it (I think this is probably best 
 done over Skype).
 
 So once again, thank you guys so much for all your input :) 
 
 
 
 

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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-31 Thread Eric Roberts


I was going to echo what Raymond and Andrew said as well.  Every place I
have worked at had given developers admin rights to their box with the
caveat that we are on our own ;-)

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:25 PM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF


I agree with Raymond, any developer should be able to maintain their own CF
and other things. As for Helicon mod_rewrite there is a lite version that
allows developers to run with a few limitations, but as they clearly state
the lite version is great for developers who are developing with a few
sites.

And ImageGlue also appears to exclude developers from extra cost, they state
that the purchase is only needed if you want to expose the application to
your clients, shooting them an email to confirm is not a bad idea. But there
OEM license seems to come with some hefty discounts like 60% for 20 servers
etc.

And your IT should not be responsible for maintaining developer machines,
your developers should be responsible for that, so why anyone else should
have to maintain that is beyond me but I can understand some government red
tape issues could be a cause. But normally these are not an issue in my
experience.

So in a nut shell I personally don't think you have explored your options
fully enough.

I have come across very few license purchases that force developers to
purchase a new license, as they usually dedicate the license to actual
production usage. But if unsure you can always read the products license and
if it is not clear then contacting them and asking them is not that hard of
a task.


--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Raymond Camden
raymondcam...@gmail.comwrote:


 While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
 developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the
time
 spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus
our
 backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.

 Maybe I'm crazy, but if a developer doesn't know how to install
ColdFusion,
 or install a web server, than they aren't a web developer. (And they can
 learn to this in one hour.) I have _never_ seen an org where IT was
 responsible for setting up base installs like that. That would be like IT
 installing Chrome for you.






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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-31 Thread Adam Cameron


And how's that exception log you accidentally deleted going, Eric?

(sorry ;-)

-- 
Adam

On 31 January 2013 17:56, Eric Roberts ow...@threeravensconsulting.comwrote:


 I was going to echo what Raymond and Andrew said as well.  Every place I
 have worked at had given developers admin rights to their box with the
 caveat that we are on our own ;-)

 Eric



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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-31 Thread Dave Watts


 And how's that exception log you accidentally deleted going, Eric?

http://instantrimshot.com/

Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software
http://www.figleaf.com/
http://training.figleaf.com/

Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on
GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized
instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite.

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Adam Cameron


Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting is
akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, so we're
upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not really where
it's at any more.

You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it
running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation,
outsourcing the management of it to Github.

Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to things,
you really ought to look at getting the developers developing on their own
machines.

-- 
Adam


On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:


 Hi all!

 At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control for
 our CF.

 I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
 gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central
 server, so that the entire team can access it.
 I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even add a
 repository.

 But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here might
 be able to help me solve;

 Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd like
 to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
 Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I
 structure my repository?

 Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local copy of
 the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment server,
 accessing the code-files via a webpath (\\server\project\file.cfm)
 So instead of checking the file out to a local copy, I'd like to use a
 exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing - is this possible?

 Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply can't
 figure it out.
 Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?

 Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as soon
 as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to lock the
 opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two developers can
 change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?

 As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all
 feedback is appreciated.

 Thanks a bunch!

 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Byron Mann


+1 for git.

Slightly larger learning curve, and but Google is your friend.

If github, etc is not possible and you need a repo server in house look at
gitlab and Gitorious as possible interface solutions on top of your git
installation.

We are in the process of replacement of a git + redmine server (redmine
wasn't very agile friendly so we use Trello, and also recommend), with git
+ Gitorious. Just installed last night so I don't have a ton of feedback
right now on Gitorious.

If you don't have a project manager / issue tracker, redmine may be a
decent option. It will interface with git (and svn I think). Checkout Trac
for just SVN.

Byron Mann
Lead Engineer  Architect
HostMySite.com


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Re: Source control in CF


Michael,

First you need to switch to developers running ColdFusion on their
machines, there is no way in hell that you can be effective with any Source
Control with that scenario. Then you need to use something like Subversive
which I believe is the better one, although a lot of people on here swear
by subclipse.

In answer to your last problem, you need to add the project to the source
control, until you do that you have nothing to work with. If you are
working on local development machines, there is absolutely no need to lock
any files, locking files is used only to stop developers from modifying the
file if working on the same development server. And I seriously would
recommend that you switch to local developer machines.

The headaches of locking files is not who Subversion works, and causes all
sorts of problems down the track. For example you stop productivity when
two developers HAVE to work on the same file, and then you have more issues
trying to get the developer to commit the changes and they will be
committing everyone else's changes as well.

And you won't to avoid that altogether.

Lastly, you're better of with collabNet SVN it is easy to setup and use.
Now I wouldn't recommend going the GIT route like others have suggested,
distributed source control is good but if you are not working in a
controlled environment then you don't need to add the complexity of this to
your company. It is good for open source authors, but is not the best
solution for closed development teams. And it has a stepper learning curve
than SVN in my opinion.

You have a lot of choices to make, and changes to be made. Then the old
development server can be turned into a testing server where ALL tests can
be conducted with the current release, but all developers should work with
there own development version of ColdFusion and development copy of the
code.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 Hi all!

 At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control for
 our CF.

 I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
 gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central
 server, so that the entire team can access it.
 I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even add a
 repository.

 But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here might
 be able to help me solve;

 Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd like
 to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
 Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I
 structure my repository?

 Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local copy of
 the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment server,
 accessing the code-files via a webpath (\\server\project\file.cfm)
 So instead of checking the file out to a local copy, I'd like to use a
 exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing - is this possible?

 Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply can't
 figure it out.
 Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?

 Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as soon
 as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to lock the
 opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two developers can
 change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?

 As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all
 feedback is appreciated.

 Thanks a bunch!



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Re: Source control in CF


Disagree Adam...

SVN is still the best to use if the development team will never be
distributed across many locations, and even if it is but contained with the
same company securely, SVN is still the better way to go.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:42 PM, Adam Cameron 
adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote:


 Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting is
 akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, so we're
 upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not really where
 it's at any more.

 You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it
 running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation,
 outsourcing the management of it to Github.

 Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to things,
 you really ought to look at getting the developers developing on their own
 machines.

 --
 Adam




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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Byron Mann


https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitSvnComparison

Pretty good comparison. May be a little git bias, but I think it hits the
major points on the head.

My personal reason for switching to git were 2 fold. Our code base is
ridiculous and svn was getting extremely slow, especially things like fresh
checkouts, and but even decent size checking were getting sketchy.  We also
had a larger number of people working from home occasionally and not having
to be connected to svn was a plus.

Remember to think about where your team will be a year or two down the
line. You may all work in the same office now but might that change where
git's distributed qualities may be of benefit?

On the other hand I agree svn is a simple solution.

Good luck.

Byron Mann
Lead Engineer  Architect
HostMySite.com
On Jan 30, 2013 8:19 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.au wrote:


 Michael,

 First you need to switch to developers running ColdFusion on their
 machines, there is no way in hell that you can be effective with any Source
 Control with that scenario. Then you need to use something like Subversive
 which I believe is the better one, although a lot of people on here swear
 by subclipse.

 In answer to your last problem, you need to add the project to the source
 control, until you do that you have nothing to work with. If you are
 working on local development machines, there is absolutely no need to lock
 any files, locking files is used only to stop developers from modifying the
 file if working on the same development server. And I seriously would
 recommend that you switch to local developer machines.

 The headaches of locking files is not who Subversion works, and causes all
 sorts of problems down the track. For example you stop productivity when
 two developers HAVE to work on the same file, and then you have more issues
 trying to get the developer to commit the changes and they will be
 committing everyone else's changes as well.

 And you won't to avoid that altogether.

 Lastly, you're better of with collabNet SVN it is easy to setup and use.
 Now I wouldn't recommend going the GIT route like others have suggested,
 distributed source control is good but if you are not working in a
 controlled environment then you don't need to add the complexity of this to
 your company. It is good for open source authors, but is not the best
 solution for closed development teams. And it has a stepper learning curve
 than SVN in my opinion.

 You have a lot of choices to make, and changes to be made. Then the old
 development server can be turned into a testing server where ALL tests can
 be conducted with the current release, but all developers should work with
 there own development version of ColdFusion and development copy of the
 code.

 --
 Regards,
 Andrew Scott
 WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk
 wrote:

 
  Hi all!
 
  At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control
 for
  our CF.
 
  I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
  gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a
 central
  server, so that the entire team can access it.
  I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even add a
  repository.
 
  But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here might
  be able to help me solve;
 
  Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd like
  to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
  Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I
  structure my repository?
 
  Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local copy of
  the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment server,
  accessing the code-files via a webpath (\\server\project\file.cfm)
  So instead of checking the file out to a local copy, I'd like to use a
  exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing - is this possible?
 
  Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply can't
  figure it out.
  Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?
 
  Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as soon
  as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to lock the
  opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two developers
 can
  change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?
 
  As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all
  feedback is appreciated.
 
  Thanks a bunch!
 


 

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Re: Source control in CF


I don't know, I think that is a decent comparison, maybe a bit GIT biased
but I guess that maybe depends on who wrote it.

I am not sure I know the answer to this, but are there Jira hooks for GIT?
I find these extremely useful when using Jira as a ticketing system so you
can see all the changes made against a certain ticket. I am sure it is
possible, but this would also be another thing to think about when working
with your ticketing system as well.

I have never had any issues with branching, tags and developers merging
back to trunk. It all comes down to discipline and knowing what you need to
do, also never seen any noticeable difference in speed either over time.
But that is because I have never been looking for it either.

I think Mylyn and SVN / Subersive and Jira are a marriage made in heaven.

And lastly the GIT tools are too Geek centralized, in other words you
really need to the right tools and at the moment GIT is behind the eight
ball when it comes to that fact.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
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On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 12:46 AM, Byron Mann byronos...@gmail.com wrote:


 https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitSvnComparison

 Pretty good comparison. May be a little git bias, but I think it hits the
 major points on the head.

 My personal reason for switching to git were 2 fold. Our code base is
 ridiculous and svn was getting extremely slow, especially things like fresh
 checkouts, and but even decent size checking were getting sketchy.  We also
 had a larger number of people working from home occasionally and not having
 to be connected to svn was a plus.

 Remember to think about where your team will be a year or two down the
 line. You may all work in the same office now but might that change where
 git's distributed qualities may be of benefit?

 On the other hand I agree svn is a simple solution.

 Good luck.

 Byron Mann
 Lead Engineer  Architect
 HostMySite.com



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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Cameron Childress


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Adam Cameron wrote:

 Before you go too far down the SVN route...


To me, Git vs SVN is sort of like a Mac vs PC argument. Git is good, SVN is
good. They are both VERY VERY widely used and I expect both to be heavily
used for the foreseeable future.

Like most technology questions, there is not just one right answer.

To the OP - read up on Git and SVN and pick whichever you like, but don't
feel bad in the least about choosing either one as a solution. They are
both perfectly fine choices. In fact, if you are struggling to understand
getting SVN setup, I think that Git may be an even more painful option for
you (but give it a whirl and form your own opinion).

-Cameron

-- 
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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Donnie Bachan (Gmail)


I agree with Cameron on this one. We recently moved from SVN to Git because
we found that within our team it facilitated our workflow. We started
implementing the practices outlined by Git Flow and that's been working
really well. That doesn't mean that Git is better than SVN, it's just
better in our case. One thing I do like is the fact that I can work on my
local machine and then sync with the server when I'm connected at the
office again.

Best Regards,
Donnie

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.comwrote:


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Adam Cameron wrote:

  Before you go too far down the SVN route...
 

 To me, Git vs SVN is sort of like a Mac vs PC argument. Git is good, SVN is
 good. They are both VERY VERY widely used and I expect both to be heavily
 used for the foreseeable future.

 Like most technology questions, there is not just one right answer.

 To the OP - read up on Git and SVN and pick whichever you like, but don't
 feel bad in the least about choosing either one as a solution. They are
 both perfectly fine choices. In fact, if you are struggling to understand
 getting SVN setup, I think that Git may be an even more painful option for
 you (but give it a whirl and form your own opinion).

 -Cameron

 --
 Cameron Childress
 --
 p:   678.637.5072
 im: cameroncf
 facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf |
 twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc |



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Re: Source control in CF


The downside is that in a team environment, you constantly need to merge
and test and merge and test and commit. So you should be connected to the
Source Control to do this, and where I have found GIT to be a pain in the
ass with when multiple changes to a file can impact you.

But I agree with Cameron too, if you're new to all this, SVN will be far
easier to get running with as all the tools are great and easier to use
than GIT.


-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Donnie Bachan (Gmail) 
donnie.bac...@gmail.com wrote:


 I agree with Cameron on this one. We recently moved from SVN to Git because
 we found that within our team it facilitated our workflow. We started
 implementing the practices outlined by Git Flow and that's been working
 really well. That doesn't mean that Git is better than SVN, it's just
 better in our case. One thing I do like is the fact that I can work on my
 local machine and then sync with the server when I'm connected at the
 office again.

 Best Regards,
 Donnie

 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Adam Cameron wrote:
 
   Before you go too far down the SVN route...
  
 
  To me, Git vs SVN is sort of like a Mac vs PC argument. Git is good, SVN
 is
  good. They are both VERY VERY widely used and I expect both to be heavily
  used for the foreseeable future.
 
  Like most technology questions, there is not just one right answer.
 
  To the OP - read up on Git and SVN and pick whichever you like, but don't
  feel bad in the least about choosing either one as a solution. They are
  both perfectly fine choices. In fact, if you are struggling to understand
  getting SVN setup, I think that Git may be an even more painful option
 for
  you (but give it a whirl and form your own opinion).
 
  -Cameron
 
  --
  Cameron Childress
  --
  p:   678.637.5072
  im: cameroncf
  facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf |
  twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc |
 


 

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Re: Source control in CF


+infinity

I agree with Adam here completely. SVN is mejor que nada, but if you're in
an environment where anyone other than yourself is going to be committing,
Git annihilates SVN.

I would strongly encourage you to look at GitHub, as it makes things so
simple to get started. And, if you're on a Windows machine, they even now
have a Windows client that makes getting started with Git even simpler.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Adam Cameron 
adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote:


 Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting is
 akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, so we're
 upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not really where
 it's at any more.

 You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it
 running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation,
 outsourcing the management of it to Github.

 Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to things,
 you really ought to look at getting the developers developing on their own
 machines.

 --
 Adam


 On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:

 
  Hi all!
 
  At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control
 for
  our CF.
 
  I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
  gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a
 central
  server, so that the entire team can access it.
  I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even add a
  repository.
 
  But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here might
  be able to help me solve;
 
  Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd like
  to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
  Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I
  structure my repository?
 
  Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local copy of
  the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment server,
  accessing the code-files via a webpath (\\server\project\file.cfm)
  So instead of checking the file out to a local copy, I'd like to use a
  exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing - is this possible?
 
  Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply can't
  figure it out.
  Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?
 
  Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as soon
  as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to lock the
  opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two developers
 can
  change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?
 
  As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all
  feedback is appreciated.
 
  Thanks a bunch!
 
 

 

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Re: Source control in CF


Testing should be done on your topic branch. Git makes this so ridiculously
simple that I'm not even sure how to respond to the (apparent) assertion
that it's difficult. Committing and merging is one of the areas where SVN
can't even begin to compare with Git in terms of simplicity - or power. But
that's really not a hey, let's get you started with source control kind
of conversation.

I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
or have someone help them through it. I've helped folks move their projects
from no source control (their source control was creating zip files of
the project folder every once in awhile) to using Git, and they've never
looked back.

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote:


 The downside is that in a team environment, you constantly need to merge
 and test and merge and test and commit. So you should be connected to the
 Source Control to do this, and where I have found GIT to be a pain in the
 ass with when multiple changes to a file can impact you.

 But I agree with Cameron too, if you're new to all this, SVN will be far
 easier to get running with as all the tools are great and easier to use
 than GIT.


 --
 Regards,
 Andrew Scott
 WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



 On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 1:27 AM, Donnie Bachan (Gmail) 
 donnie.bac...@gmail.com wrote:

 
  I agree with Cameron on this one. We recently moved from SVN to Git
 because
  we found that within our team it facilitated our workflow. We started
  implementing the practices outlined by Git Flow and that's been working
  really well. That doesn't mean that Git is better than SVN, it's just
  better in our case. One thing I do like is the fact that I can work on my
  local machine and then sync with the server when I'm connected at the
  office again.
 
  Best Regards,
  Donnie
 
  On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Cameron Childress camer...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  
   On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:42 AM, Adam Cameron wrote:
  
Before you go too far down the SVN route...
   
  
   To me, Git vs SVN is sort of like a Mac vs PC argument. Git is good,
 SVN
  is
   good. They are both VERY VERY widely used and I expect both to be
 heavily
   used for the foreseeable future.
  
   Like most technology questions, there is not just one right answer.
  
   To the OP - read up on Git and SVN and pick whichever you like, but
 don't
   feel bad in the least about choosing either one as a solution. They are
   both perfectly fine choices. In fact, if you are struggling to
 understand
   getting SVN setup, I think that Git may be an even more painful option
  for
   you (but give it a whirl and form your own opinion).
  
   -Cameron
  
   --
   Cameron Childress
   --
   p:   678.637.5072
   im: cameroncf
   facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf |
   twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc |
  
 
 
 

 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Steve 'Cutter' Blades

And I'll have to disagree with you, Andrew...

Having worked extensively in both Subversion and Git, I find Git to be a
much more robust tool, providing a lot more flexibility, and huge gains
in overall workflow. Anytime I have to move back towards Subversion it
is somewhat painful. All of that aside, Git is not for the faint of
heart. It can take a while to wrap your head around task workflows that
are very basic in Subversion. It's a complex tool, for enterprise
development, and very affective. The larger the team, the more valuable
it is.

Steve 'Cutter' Blades
Adobe Community Professional
Adobe Certified Expert
Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer

http://cutterscrossing.com

Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010
https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book

The best way to predict the future is to help create it

On 1/30/2013 8:23 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
Disagree Adam...

SVN is still the best to use if the development team will never be
distributed across many locations, and even if it is but contained with the
same company securely, SVN is still the better way to go.

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Re: Source control in CF

What Cutter said. :-)

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades
cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote:

And I'll have to disagree with you, Andrew...

Steve 'Cutter' Blades
Adobe Community Professional
Adobe Certified Expert
Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer

http://cutterscrossing.com

Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010

https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book

The best way to predict the future is to help create it

On 1/30/2013 8:23 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
Disagree Adam...

SVN is still the best to use if the development team will never be
distributed across many locations, and even if it is but contained with
the
same company securely, SVN is still the better way to go.

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Re: Source control in CF

Steve,

Yeah it might be a lack of understanding, but I know the tools on Windows
are not for the faint hearted. I have had better success with SVN than I
have ever had with Git. I tried using smartGit which the programmers have a
very good version called smartSVN and the most basic of rolling back was a
pain in the butt or keeping in sync with the master repository. But yes it
might be me, but the tools really do suck for Git and I have found that I
am forced to go back to a command prompt to do anything with Git.

Especially when something goes wrong, I had an issue with an Open Source
product just recently where I forked the repository, and ran into an issue
where it stopped pulling from the master branch and all the new changes
would never get merged from master to the local repository, and the only
solution that a Google search provided was delete the fork and start fresh.
That was a few years ago, so it might be different but I think that is
important, because you can end up in serious trouble for the new user.

That to me this is a productivity killer, once I am forced to leave the IDE
then I am no longer interested in that tool. And is one of the things I
don't like about Git at the moment, the last I also looked was that you
also need 3rd party tools to even run Git on Windows to begin with, which
is something I personally don't like

Now don't get me wrong, I do understand its benefits across distributed
developers that is a great part of these type of source control systems.
But distributed systems like Git are not the answer in all scenarios
either, in extremely closed teams I would highly recommend SVN any time of
the day over Git. In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the
like, but expect a very huge learning curve.

--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:10 AM, Steve 'Cutter' Blades
cold.fus...@cutterscrossing.com wrote:

And I'll have to disagree with you, Andrew...

Steve 'Cutter' Blades
Adobe Community Professional
Adobe Certified Expert
Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer

http://cutterscrossing.com

Co-Author Learning Ext JS 3.2 Packt Publishing 2010

https://www.packtpub.com/learning-ext-js-3-2-for-building-dynamic-desktop-style-user-interfaces/book

The best way to predict the future is to help create it

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Cameron Childress


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:

 I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
 either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
 or have someone help them through it.


I think Git gives you a whole lot more rope. It's power is also potentially
it's downfall, depending on the people involved and everyone having the
same understanding of how to use it (git flow vs github flow etc).

-Cameron

-- 
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--
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im: cameroncf
facebook http://www.facebook.com/cameroncf |
twitterhttp://twitter.com/cameronc |
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Re: Source control in CF


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:

  In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the
 like, but expect a very huge learning curve.



The context of the OP is that of getting started with source control - any
source control. In that context, the learning curve exists no matter what
source control technology one decides on. And it's definitely no greater
for Git vs. SVN or SVN vs. Git. No source control to source control is a
deliberate change in one's philosophy and work flow. It is unfair to paint
Git as a bad choice because you have been using SVN for years and prefer
its tooling, and especially unfair given the context of this thread.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have helped folks go from no source
control (again, the context of the OP) to using Git - on Windows, even
(which I don't use) - in a matter of a few hours. Were they using all of
the advanced features of Git in a matter of a few hours? Of course not, but
they went from no source control to source control in a matter of a few
hours, and their work flow was dramatically improved right away.

The bottom line is, today, in 2013, if you are **getting started** with
source control, Git is undeniably de facto standard, and THE way to go. Its
learning curve - to a newbie to source control - is no greater than
anything else, and once they are no longer a newbie they will find it
infinitely more powerful and productive than any of the older source
control technologies.


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Re: Source control in CF


See now I find SVN far easier when you use it right, when merging code and
my opinion it is more ridiculously easier than Git. But again you need to
know how to use SVN to its fullest as well.

I have worked in teams who use SVN, and they didn't know how to maximise
its potential, and found merging extremely difficult and yet I find Git to
be the most hardest. But again I have used Git, and I do admit I still have
a lot to learn about it and how to use it. Till then my view is not going
to change, in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:


 Testing should be done on your topic branch. Git makes this so ridiculously
 simple that I'm not even sure how to respond to the (apparent) assertion
 that it's difficult. Committing and merging is one of the areas where SVN
 can't even begin to compare with Git in terms of simplicity - or power. But
 that's really not a hey, let's get you started with source control kind
 of conversation.

 I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
 either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
 or have someone help them through it. I've helped folks move their projects
 from no source control (their source control was creating zip files of
 the project folder every once in awhile) to using Git, and they've never
 looked back.



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Re: Source control in CF


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:


 Till then my view is not going
 to change,



LOL. That's what we all love about you, my friend! :-)



 in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.



And there are countless teams who have used both - correctly - who
vehemently disagree with you. But again, this is out of context for this
thread, and therefore a non-starter.


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Re: Source control in CF


Matt,

Please read what I have said, I am not painting it as bad, I have clearly
stated that Git is better in decentralized environments. The OP seems to be
a small company that is all in house, Git is not designed to be good in
those conditions at least my experience across large/small centralized
teams has been SVN to be the best in those circumstances.

And agreed there is a learning curve over all, regardless of which ever
option the OP takes.

Git is not the defacto standard either that is a crock of shot Matt, again
one seriously needs to work out which is better for them. If they need a
decentralized over centralized then Git is the cheapest solution to go with.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411



On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:52 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:

   In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the
  like, but expect a very huge learning curve.
 


 The context of the OP is that of getting started with source control - any
 source control. In that context, the learning curve exists no matter what
 source control technology one decides on. And it's definitely no greater
 for Git vs. SVN or SVN vs. Git. No source control to source control is a
 deliberate change in one's philosophy and work flow. It is unfair to paint
 Git as a bad choice because you have been using SVN for years and prefer
 its tooling, and especially unfair given the context of this thread.

 As I mentioned in a previous post, I have helped folks go from no source
 control (again, the context of the OP) to using Git - on Windows, even
 (which I don't use) - in a matter of a few hours. Were they using all of
 the advanced features of Git in a matter of a few hours? Of course not, but
 they went from no source control to source control in a matter of a few
 hours, and their work flow was dramatically improved right away.

 The bottom line is, today, in 2013, if you are **getting started** with
 source control, Git is undeniably de facto standard, and THE way to go. Its
 learning curve - to a newbie to source control - is no greater than
 anything else, and once they are no longer a newbie they will find it
 infinitely more powerful and productive than any of the older source
 control technologies.




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Re: Source control in CF


Whatever Matt, you took that right out of context.

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411


On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 3:01 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:

 
  Till then my view is not going
  to change,






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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Wil Genovese


Out of context for this thread? This thread was a question about how to do 
xyz with Subversion. Anything about using Git, the kewl kids are using Git, 
Git is Defacto, etc etc etc, is out of context.

Every technology is a tool and each tool has it's uses. Just because some have 
manage to replace one tool for another does not mean it's right for some else's 
team. This technology zealotry is annoying at best and for the most part 
useless off-topic squabbling. Most of the replies here have not even addressed 
the OP and his questions, aside from my initial reply to the OP.

SVN is very valid and is used heavily will continue to be used long from now. 
And the same should be said about Git.

For those that remember the old slow Tortoise client maybe you should revisit 
SVN with a new client. As of the 1.7 releases of the SVN clients they no longer 
use the .svn files and folders. Additionally the 1.7 SVN clients work perfectly 
with the SVN 1.6 server. This change in client behavior has made working with 
very large repos mush easier and faster. If fact he new SVN clients are similar 
to the Git clients in that fashion. 

I hope the OP did find use in the first few responses before this SVN vs Git 
feud started. It would be a shame to drive a person away because instead of 
getting his question answered everyone decided to start a technology flame war.

Now have a nice day.




Wil Genovese
Sr. Web Application Developer/
Systems Administrator
CF Webtools
www.cfwebtools.com

wilg...@trunkful.com
www.trunkful.com

On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com wrote:

 
 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
 
 
 Till then my view is not going
 to change,
 
 
 
 LOL. That's what we all love about you, my friend! :-)
 
 
 
 in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.
 
 
 
 And there are countless teams who have used both - correctly - who
 vehemently disagree with you. But again, this is out of context for this
 thread, and therefore a non-starter.
 
 
 

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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Adam Cameron


To the OP: I'm really sorry to have accidentally turned this thread into
one of those my toy is better than your toy kind of discussions. That's
probably not what you were wanting :-(

-- 
Adam

On 30 January 2013 09:42, Adam Cameron adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.comwrote:

 Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting is
 akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, so we're
 upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not really where
 it's at any more.

 You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it
 running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation,
 outsourcing the management of it to Github.

 Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to things,
 you really ought to look at getting the developers developing on their own
 machines.

 --
 Adam


 On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:


 Hi all!

 At my company we're once again talking about setting up source control
 for our CF.

 I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've
 gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a central
 server, so that the entire team can access it.
 I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even add a
 repository.

 But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here might
 be able to help me solve;

 Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd like
 to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
 Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I
 structure my repository?

 Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local copy of
 the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment server,
 accessing the code-files via a webpath (\\server\project\file.cfm)
 So instead of checking the file out to a local copy, I'd like to use a
 exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing - is this possible?

 Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply can't
 figure it out.
 Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?

 Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as soon
 as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to lock the
 opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two developers can
 change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?

 As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all
 feedback is appreciated.

 Thanks a bunch!

 

~|
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Re: Source control in CF


My apologies. I came into the thread late, and had only seen bits about
getting started. I didn't realize that the OP was asking specific
questions about SVN.

I still agree with Adam, though, that one getting started with source
control should look at Git as well.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:19 AM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote:


 Out of context for this thread? This thread was a question about how to
 do xyz with Subversion. Anything about using Git, the kewl kids are using
 Git, Git is Defacto, etc etc etc, is out of context.

 Every technology is a tool and each tool has it's uses. Just because some
 have manage to replace one tool for another does not mean it's right for
 some else's team. This technology zealotry is annoying at best and for the
 most part useless off-topic squabbling. Most of the replies here have not
 even addressed the OP and his questions, aside from my initial reply to the
 OP.

 SVN is very valid and is used heavily will continue to be used long from
 now. And the same should be said about Git.

 For those that remember the old slow Tortoise client maybe you should
 revisit SVN with a new client. As of the 1.7 releases of the SVN clients
 they no longer use the .svn files and folders. Additionally the 1.7 SVN
 clients work perfectly with the SVN 1.6 server. This change in client
 behavior has made working with very large repos mush easier and faster. If
 fact he new SVN clients are similar to the Git clients in that fashion.

 I hope the OP did find use in the first few responses before this SVN vs
 Git feud started. It would be a shame to drive a person away because
 instead of getting his question answered everyone decided to start a
 technology flame war.

 Now have a nice day.




 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com

 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com

 On Jan 30, 2013, at 10:01 AM, Matt Quackenbush quackfu...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:56 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:
 
 
  Till then my view is not going
  to change,
 
 
 
  LOL. That's what we all love about you, my friend! :-)
 
 
 
  in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.
 
 
 
  And there are countless teams who have used both - correctly - who
  vehemently disagree with you. But again, this is out of context for this
  thread, and therefore a non-starter.
 
 
 

 

~|
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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Ben Forta


This thread has gotten out of hand. So, Michael, if I may summarize ...

1: SVN, Git, ..., any option is better than no option, and you should
research them all to figure out what works best for you. There is no one
size fits all.

2: More importantly, development on a shared server is a big fat no-no.
Heck, the reason we made CF Developer Edition free so many years ago was to
eliminate cost as a factor in doing just that.

Now ignore all of the other messages in this thread. ;-)

--- Ben


-Original Message-
From: Adam Cameron [mailto:adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 11:24 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF


To the OP: I'm really sorry to have accidentally turned this thread into one
of those my toy is better than your toy kind of discussions. That's
probably not what you were wanting :-(

--
Adam

On 30 January 2013 09:42, Adam Cameron
adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.comwrote:

 Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting 
 is akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, 
 so we're upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not 
 really where it's at any more.

 You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it 
 running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation, 
 outsourcing the management of it to Github.

 Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to 
 things, you really ought to look at getting the developers developing 
 on their own machines.

 --
 Adam


 On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:


 Hi all!

 At my company we're once again talking about setting up source 
 control for our CF.

 I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've 
 gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a 
 central server, so that the entire team can access it.
 I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even 
 add a repository.

 But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here 
 might be able to help me solve;

 Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd 
 like to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
 Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I 
 structure my repository?

 Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local 
 copy of the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment 
 server, accessing the code-files via a webpath 
 (\\server\project\file.cfm) So instead of checking the file out to a 
 local copy, I'd like to use a exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing -
is this possible?

 Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply 
 can't figure it out.
 Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?

 Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as 
 soon as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting to 
 lock the opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no two 
 developers can change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?

 As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and all 
 feedback is appreciated.

 Thanks a bunch!

 



~|
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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Adam Cameron


Sorry Wil, yeah. I guess I should have anticipated the way it would have
gone after I mentioned I thought Git might be a better starting point.

I only addressed that and the shared dev server point because I wanted to
see if Git was an option before helping with the other - SVN-specific -
questions. I did feel slightly guilty about offering only a partial answer,
but that was just an intended starting point.

My point of suggesting Github is because it's probably easier than setting
up either SVN *or* Git, and the management is taken care of for you. This
seemed particularly relevant given what the OP had said.  Also if one
ignores the specific vagaries of various people's opinions on what's hard
or easy about both, basic source control processes are as easy on one as on
the other. I think Git might go a bit further as far as total
functionality goes, but to be honest I don't know. And it's not likely to
be relevant to the OP for quite a while either.

What I was really meaning to do is to just make a suggestion that Git might
be another option, and - just IMO now - the one more likely to be the
mainstream option in five years time. I would predict that SVN might have
gone the way of CVS by then.  And I say this as someone who has used SVN
for over ten years and think it's excellent. SVN arose from looking at
CVS's shortcomings and addressing them: I see Git as having done the same
thing with SVN. That said... both are fine.

-- 
Adam


On 30 January 2013 16:19, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote:

 and for the most part useless off-topic squabbling. Most of the replies
 here have not even addressed the OP and his questions, aside from my
 initial reply to the OP.



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Re: Source control in CF


I think the interesting thing is that how can something be defacto when the
market share for that product is like 3% where SVN has a market share of
well over 50%.

So 5 million users against a few thousand must be wrong...

-- 
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411





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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Eric Roberts


I didn't like GIT at all...SVN was easy to use and manage.  I still couldn't
figure out how to even get my source into git...and that is using git hub
and the graphical tool.  It shouldn't be that difficult.  The whole point of
SVN, beyond versioning, is to allow multiple people to work on the same file
at the same time.  You do need to have individual dev servers.  Since CF and
IIS/Apache come at no cost, that is no big deal.  If you have to set up a
VPN for remote connections, then do that, but there is no reason to not set
up individual dev servers on your dev  teams individual machines.

Eric

-Original Message-
From: Matt Quackenbush [mailto:quackfu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:02 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF


+infinity

I agree with Adam here completely. SVN is mejor que nada, but if you're in
an environment where anyone other than yourself is going to be committing,
Git annihilates SVN.

I would strongly encourage you to look at GitHub, as it makes things so
simple to get started. And, if you're on a Windows machine, they even now
have a Windows client that makes getting started with Git even simpler.


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Adam Cameron 
adamcameroncoldfus...@gmail.com wrote:


 Before you go too far down the SVN route, what you're kinda suggesting 
 is akin to saying we've finally decided to upgrade from Windows 3.1, 
 so we're upgrading to WindowsXP. SVN is great software, but it's not 
 really where it's at any more.

 You really ought to be looking at Git: either your own instance of it 
 running (and managed by by you), or perhaps better for your situation, 
 outsourcing the management of it to Github.

 Having a shared dev server is a bit of an old-school approach to 
 things, you really ought to look at getting the developers developing 
 on their own machines.

 --
 Adam


 On 29 January 2013 23:11, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk wrote:

 
  Hi all!
 
  At my company we're once again talking about setting up source 
  control
 for
  our CF.
 
  I've been googling and reading for quite a while now and so far I've 
  gathered, that we first of all need a SVN server of some sort on a
 central
  server, so that the entire team can access it.
  I've looked at VisualSVN Server and managed to install it and even 
  add a repository.
 
  But now I am getting into problems, which I am hoping someone here 
  might be able to help me solve;
 
  Problem 1: We naturally already have a whole bunch of code that we'd 
  like to put into our repository - but I can't figure out how to do that.
  Is this where I need something like TortoiseSVN? And if so, how do I 
  structure my repository?
 
  Problem 2: We don't use a setup where each developer runs a local 
  copy of the code, instead we all run the code on a single develoment 
  server, accessing the code-files via a webpath 
  (\\server\project\file.cfm) So instead of checking the file out to a 
  local copy, I'd like to use a exclusive-lock-in-place sort of thing -
is this possible?
 
  Problem 3: I am trying to use the Subclipse plugin, but I simply 
  can't figure it out.
  Does anyone know of a how to use Subclipse for dummies tutorial?
 
  Problem 4: Is it possible to auto-lock/check out files in Eclipse as 
  soon as they are opened by a developer? (versus manually selecting 
  to lock the opens a file? Or how does one go about ensuring that no 
  two developers
 can
  change a file at the same time (referring to problem 2)?
 
  As you can tell, I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment, so any and 
  all feedback is appreciated.
 
  Thanks a bunch!
 
 

 



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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Eric Roberts

I completely disagree.  Going from no source control to source control with
SVN is a lot easier than going from no source control to GIT.  Same with
going from SVN to Git.  SVN is WAY easier to use and learn.

-Original Message-
From: Matt Quackenbush [mailto:quackfu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:52 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:35 AM, Andrew Scott wrote:

  In Open Source and the like I would recommend Git or the like, but 
 expect a very huge learning curve.

The context of the OP is that of getting started with source control - any
source control. In that context, the learning curve exists no matter what
source control technology one decides on. And it's definitely no greater for
Git vs. SVN or SVN vs. Git. No source control to source control is a
deliberate change in one's philosophy and work flow. It is unfair to paint
Git as a bad choice because you have been using SVN for years and prefer its
tooling, and especially unfair given the context of this thread.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have helped folks go from no source
control (again, the context of the OP) to using Git - on Windows, even
(which I don't use) - in a matter of a few hours. Were they using all of the
advanced features of Git in a matter of a few hours? Of course not, but they
went from no source control to source control in a matter of a few hours,
and their work flow was dramatically improved right away.

The bottom line is, today, in 2013, if you are **getting started** with
source control, Git is undeniably de facto standard, and THE way to go. Its
learning curve - to a newbie to source control - is no greater than anything
else, and once they are no longer a newbie they will find it infinitely more
powerful and productive than any of the older source control technologies.

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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Eric Roberts

I agree Andrew...

-Original Message-
From: Andrew Scott [mailto:andr...@andyscott.id.au] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2013 9:57 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: Source control in CF

See now I find SVN far easier when you use it right, when merging code and
my opinion it is more ridiculously easier than Git. But again you need to
know how to use SVN to its fullest as well.

I have worked in teams who use SVN, and they didn't know how to maximise its
potential, and found merging extremely difficult and yet I find Git to be
the most hardest. But again I have used Git, and I do admit I still have a
lot to learn about it and how to use it. Till then my view is not going to
change, in a team SVN is far better when you know how to use it right.

--
Regards,
Andrew Scott
WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/
Google+:  http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411

On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 2:08 AM, Matt Quackenbush
quackfu...@gmail.comwrote:

 Testing should be done on your topic branch. Git makes this so
ridiculously
 simple that I'm not even sure how to respond to the (apparent) assertion
 that it's difficult. Committing and merging is one of the areas where SVN
 can't even begin to compare with Git in terms of simplicity - or power.
But
 that's really not a hey, let's get you started with source control kind
 of conversation.

 I'll just say that anyone that thinks Git is difficult in this area has
 either a) never tried Git, or b) didn't read/understand the documentation
 or have someone help them through it. I've helped folks move their
projects
 from no source control (their source control was creating zip files of
 the project folder every once in awhile) to using Git, and they've never
 looked back.

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RE: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Will Swain


I can only speak from personal experience, but I found the move from nothing
to Mercurial (which has a similar model to Git) much easier than my
previous, aborted, attempt to get going with SVN. Since then, I've had
experience with both, but not Git, and I can honestly say that big merges
are much happier in Mercurial than in SVN IMO.

That said, the most important thing is to use some form of source control,
whether it be SVN, Git, Hg or whatever. 

Will


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Michael Christensen


First of, let me thank all of you for your (quite lively) inputs.

The discussion did spiral a bit out of control in a GIT vs SVN tussle, but I 
understand and can respect that people have strong opinions as to which systems 
they prefer.

I also wholeheartedly agree, that there are certain advantages to be gained by 
each developer having a working copy of the code on their local machines.
I would, however, contest the absoluteness of this as the only way to go.

While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each developer 
to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time spent by the 
IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our backend/admin 
software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
Add in the cost of additional licenses for 3rd party components (like ImageGlue 
or ISAPI rewrite for example) and the cost of being able to run code locally 
can add up quite quickly.

For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server and all 
code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for convenience) works 
quite well and has done so without major snafus for 10+ years.

Is this an oldschool approach? Very much so.
Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.

I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very 
difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted the 
question initially.

I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how we 
will proceed from here.

If any of you, who are running a setup where each developer runs the code 
locally, I would be very appreciative if you could give me 30 minutes to an 
hour of your time, so I might pick your brain as to how you have gone about 
getting this setup and how you maintain it (I think this is probably best done 
over Skype).

So once again, thank you guys so much for all your input :) 

~|
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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Russ Michaels


of course we could liven it up even more and suggest mercurial :-)


On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 First of, let me thank all of you for your (quite lively) inputs.

 The discussion did spiral a bit out of control in a GIT vs SVN tussle, but
 I understand and can respect that people have strong opinions as to which
 systems they prefer.

 I also wholeheartedly agree, that there are certain advantages to be
 gained by each developer having a working copy of the code on their local
 machines.
 I would, however, contest the absoluteness of this as the only way to go.

 While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
 developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time
 spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our
 backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
 Add in the cost of additional licenses for 3rd party components (like
 ImageGlue or ISAPI rewrite for example) and the cost of being able to run
 code locally can add up quite quickly.

 For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server
 and all code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for
 convenience) works quite well and has done so without major snafus for 10+
 years.

 Is this an oldschool approach? Very much so.
 Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.

 I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very
 difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I posted
 the question initially.

 I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how
 we will proceed from here.

 If any of you, who are running a setup where each developer runs the code
 locally, I would be very appreciative if you could give me 30 minutes to an
 hour of your time, so I might pick your brain as to how you have gone about
 getting this setup and how you maintain it (I think this is probably best
 done over Skype).

 So once again, thank you guys so much for all your input :)

 

~|
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http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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Re: Source control in CF


Someone already did. :-)

On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 5:54 PM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:


 of course we could liven it up even more and suggest mercurial :-)


 On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 10:51 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dk
 wrote:

 
  First of, let me thank all of you for your (quite lively) inputs.
 
  The discussion did spiral a bit out of control in a GIT vs SVN tussle,
 but
  I understand and can respect that people have strong opinions as to which
  systems they prefer.
 
  I also wholeheartedly agree, that there are certain advantages to be
  gained by each developer having a working copy of the code on their local
  machines.
  I would, however, contest the absoluteness of this as the only way to go.
 
  While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
  developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the
 time
  spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus
 our
  backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
  Add in the cost of additional licenses for 3rd party components (like
  ImageGlue or ISAPI rewrite for example) and the cost of being able to run
  code locally can add up quite quickly.
 
  For us at least, running on a shared codebase with 1 development server
  and all code available via a webpath (usually mounted as a drive for
  convenience) works quite well and has done so without major snafus for
 10+
  years.
 
  Is this an oldschool approach? Very much so.
  Is it a good solution? Maybe not for every company, but it works for us.
 
  I understand, that our setup makes running version/source control very
  difficult and it is a conclusion that I feared I might reach, when I
 posted
  the question initially.
 
  I think that I may have to go back and have a long, hard think about how
  we will proceed from here.
 
  If any of you, who are running a setup where each developer runs the code
  locally, I would be very appreciative if you could give me 30 minutes to
 an
  hour of your time, so I might pick your brain as to how you have gone
 about
  getting this setup and how you maintain it (I think this is probably best
  done over Skype).
 
  So once again, thank you guys so much for all your input :)
 
 

 

~|
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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Raymond Camden


While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time
spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our
backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.

Maybe I'm crazy, but if a developer doesn't know how to install ColdFusion,
or install a web server, than they aren't a web developer. (And they can
learn to this in one hour.) I have _never_ seen an org where IT was
responsible for setting up base installs like that. That would be like IT
installing Chrome for you.



On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 4:51 PM, Michael Christensen mich...@strib.dkwrote:


 First of, let me thank all of you for your (quite lively) inputs.

 The discussion did spiral a bit out of control in a GIT vs SVN tussle, but
 I understand and can respect that people have strong opinions as to which
 systems they prefer.

 I also wholeheartedly agree, that there are certain advantages to be
 gained by each developer having a working copy of the code on their local
 machines.
 I would, however, contest the absoluteness of this as the only way to go.

 While it is true, that the CF Developer licensing does allow for each
 developer to run a CF server locally without paying a license fee, the time
 spent by the IT department setting up and supporting 50+ websites (plus our
 backend/admin software) on each developer machine does come at a cost.
 Add in the cost of additional licenses for 3rd party components (like
 ImageGlue or ISAPI rewrite for example) and the cost of being able to run
 code locally can add up quite quickly.



-- 
===
Raymond Camden, Adobe Developer Evangelist

Email : raymondcam...@gmail.com
Blog : www.raymondcamden.com
Twitter: cfjedimaster


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Re: Source control in CF

2013-01-30 Thread Byron Mann


I'll guess this is more a situation with IT restricting software installs
to workstations.

Heck we've even had problems with advanced users (who have been granted
administration rights to their workstations) abusing the privilege by
running torrents and other inappropriate software.

Government is notorious for this.

I would maybe recommend doing a multi-instance install of CF on your dev
server and give each developer an instance if possible. May be easier for
IT to manage that.

Or if you have budget offer a bring your own IT credit, where developers
could use their own laptops and you bonus them an amount towards their
hardware.

Byron Mann
Lead Engineer  Architect
HostMySite.com


~|
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Re: Source control in CF