date:20150811

I apologize. Should have looked up the ohm reading as Josh did instead of
winging it. Josh found 2 ohms, which means about 6 amps per glow plug (which
means a surprisingly small 72 watts of heat from each glow plug) and a total
of 24 amps going from the battery through the glow plug solenoid to the glow
plugs.

What can I say, I was ME (among other things) not EE and my diesel
experience is more practical than theoretical.

Rick

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Leslie
Paal via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 2:08 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Leslie Paal lpaalc...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

To run 10 amps through the glow plugs they can not be more than 1.2 ohms,
from a 12V battery.  A couple thousand ohms would allow only 6 mA, barely
enough to lite a LED...   ;-)

Leslie.
(one of my degrees is EE.)


 down the starting voltage. When you power the glow plugs you  are running
ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of  resistance to create heat.
If your battery is OK, and of


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom
of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

If the contacts on the glow plug button are fouled with carbon, it may not be 
able to pass the needed current. Try shorting across the terminals on the back 
of the switch so you bypass the internal contacts. 

Dennis C. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 9:34 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 This has been a great learning experience and I think I understand most of 
 what has been said.  One thing I don’t get is why Rick thinks I should change 
 the wiring back to the original design.  With that setup, if you have a 
 problem in the circuit (as I apparently do) you would not be able to start 
 the engine.  The way mine is wired seems to have no obvious disadvantage if 
 all is OK, but gives you the ability to start the engine with a poor 
 connection somewhere.  If it were wired as original in the manual, I would 
 not be able to start at all.  I don’t see a disadvantage to my panel’s wiring 
 design.  Rick- are you suggesting that the start problem might be caused by 
 the wiring change?  I can’t see that. 
 
 One further clue if it helps, with the start button and glow plug button 
 pushed, you can hear the fuel pump slow way down and I hear a noise from the 
 solenoid but I don’t know if that noise is the solenoid actually closing.
 
 One clarification- I have no solenoid on the glow plug circuit either from 
 the manual circuit diagram or as far as I have found in the wiring, so I 
 presume that is just a difference in my engine and others.  
 
 I should also note that when I first got the boat, I had problems starting it 
 at all unless plugged into shore power.  I thought it was the batteries so 
 got new ones, but that made no difference.  When I cleaned the ground wire 
 connections to the engine block, it started as I do it now. I can’t remember 
 if I ever tried pushing both at the same time back then.  I was new to glow 
 plugs and had not found the manual yet and its description of the start 
 sequence, so I doubt it.
 
 Tomorrow my Dad and I are going to take apart the harnesses and fuse holders 
 and clean all the contacts and see if that makes a difference.  Dave
 
 On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Your math is correct, and the high current through the glow plugs (and the 
 fuel lift pump) accounts for the fact that the system voltage drops to 
 11.5-12.0v when the glow plug button is pressed.
  
 But I just looked at the manual for my M35B and the glow plug button does 
 not provide current for the glow plugs or the fuel pump. It provides current 
 to close a solenoid that connects the glow plugs and the fuel pump to the 
 battery. So the high current flow is ultimately from B+, and the current 
 flow through the glow plug button only needs to be a faction of an amp.
  
 I don’t recall David saying that the engine did not start or the starter did 
 not engage. Rather he indicated that the engine panel was wired differently 
 than the manufacturer’s wiring diagram and the starting procedure was 
 different than the procedure spelled out in the owner’s manual for the 
 engine.
  
 If the starter engages when the button is pushed, then there is demonstrably 
 enough voltage and resulting current flow to close the solenoid (which 
 should take well under an amp).
  
 When the starter solenoid is closed, that creates an almost dead short on 
 the high current side from the battery (via the big red battery cable 
 connected to the starter) to ground through the starter coil, and there will 
 be 175 to 250 amps of current flowing through the starter. The resulting 
 magnetic field creates enough torque and rotation speed to start the engine. 
 On my boat, with a 4 cylinder M35B, the system voltage drops below 10.5 
 volts when the starter is engaged. As a matter of fact, if I restart the 
 engine after the chart plotter has been turned on, the chart plotter will 
 shut down due to the low voltage and will need to be restarted. (I swear 
 every time that happens.)
  
 It occurs to me that the fact that the system voltage drops to around 10v 
 when the starter is turning could be a contributing reason that David only 
 measured 8v from the solenoid connection to ground when he pushed the 
 starter button. If the starter does engage, then I stand by my diagnosis 
 that there is nothing amiss with solenoid or starter, and that it would be 
 best to restore the panel wiring to the way it left the factory.
  
 BTW, Mainecruising is right is saying the panel is the choke point for 
 current supply. All of the current to power the solenoid that connects the 
 battery to the glow plugs and fuel pump, the starter solenoid, and the 
 instruments comes through the key switch. Of course the panel and wiring is 
 designed for the current flow expected. And, of course, the panel on a 
 Yanmar is also the choke point for current to the idiot lights, alarms, and 
 the starter solenoid as well.
  
  
 From:

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Jim Reinardy via CnC-List

Unfortunately, it is too late for me, Francois!  I have the compass
transducer now to make is all work.  

 

I am surprised to hear that it is possible.  Both the dealer and BG support
swore that it would not work without the compass.

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

 

From: Jean-Francois J Rivard [mailto:jfriv...@us.ibm.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 8:26 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: firewa...@reinardy.us
Subject: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

 

My Zeus2 uses COG from the integrated GPS.   I don't have a magnetic compass
feed but do I have TWD, VMG to Wind and Marker et all working  The VMG is
calculated using heading info.   You have to know where to click the COG
option in the options menu. 

You can use the GPS based SOG as well.  The reason it wants the paddle wheel
boat speed info as well is to recognize and compensate for current and
tides.  

You can PM me if you need more details on how it's done.  It was not super
obvious but after clicking around for a few minutes I was able to make it
work just fine.  

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five
Lake Lanier, GA 


Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:00:54 +
From: Jim Reinardy firewa...@reinardy.us mailto:firewa...@reinardy.us 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com ,
cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade
Message-ID: bay403-eas27154901d38c43b29663c35a1...@phx.gbl
mailto:bay403-eas27154901d38c43b29663c35a1...@phx.gbl 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

When I put in my BG system I was surprised to figure out that not only did
it need a knot meter for TWD, it wanted a compass transducer as well.  The
Zeus units won't use their internal COG data for the boat heading let alone
speed.
One other note about iPads.  I recently chartered an older boat on vacation
that only had an old 4 Garmin plotter below.  I used my IPad Air
successfully from the cockpit, but found that with the internal GPS on, it
was draining the battery even while plugged in.   Plus, plugging it in near
the VHF created interference on the radio that made it unusable.  This made
me happy I have dedicated instruments!
Jim Reinardy CC 30-2 FirewaterMilwaukee, WI

Sent from Outlook

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Yanmar engine mounts replacement

2015-08-11 Thread Patrick Davin via CnC-List

Anyone have tips for replacing engine mounts on a Yanmar 3HM? In terms of
the logistics, like how to prop up the engine, get the old mounts out, etc.

I have the transmission out now for a rebuild (fwd clutch failed) so it's
the perfect time to replace mounts. I'm just going to do the forward two
(back end of v-drive engine) because those are the two the mechanical
inspection (purchase survey at the start of this year) said were
delaminating. Plus Gallery Marine in Seattle has two in stock, not four. If
this goes easily maybe I'll consider replacing the aft two.

I'm going to go with the OEM mounts instead of PYI since several online
reviews said Yanmar OEMs were significantly better (and they look it too -
a lot more rubber for vibration dampening). The engine vibrates a fair
amount now, and a slight misalignment might be what caused the transmission
premature wear.

Copying a mail from Martin below in 2013 on the list. Martin, I'd be
interested in hearing more if you still recall the work you did (even
though your engine is a Perkins, so the mounts are different). What did you
mean by the existing engine mount bolts didn't meet your standards? I'm
ignorant of what the issue with lag and stripped threaded bolts is. I'm
expecting the existing mounts may be hard to get out because the bolts/nuts
look a bit rusted on.

I saw your suggestion of a scissor jack, but I'm not sure where I would
place that? The engine doesn't have super good flat surfaces between it and
the hull. And the plates the mounts attach to look too small to fit a jack
in. I've read that the mount nuts can just be used to raise the engine
until its raised enough to slip the mounts out (block it with scrap wood at
that point). Is that actually the best way? I have some pictures I could
upload.

Thanks! Hoping to do this project in the next two weeks, which is how long
it will take Harbor Marine to get to the transmission. I thought boats knew
not to break in the summer months, but I guess not!

-Patrick
S/V Violet Hour, LF38
Seattle, WA, now in Elliott Bay marina

*Martin DeYoung* mdeyoung at deyoungmfg.com
cnc-list%40cnc-list.com?Subject=Re%3A%20Stus-List%20Yanmar%20Engine%20Mounts%20-%20aftermarket%20replacements%3FIn-Reply-To=%3C23EAE197CC1B594FA8793397EBCD357D7B48ED%40DMI3.DMI.local%3E
*Wed May 22 13:38:22 EDT 2013*

I replaced all 4 of Calypso's engine mounts (Perkins 4-108) a while
back. I used the RD Engine Mounts offered by PYI, Inc. As none of
the existing engine mount bolts met my standards ( a combo of lag and
stripped threaded bolts) the job became slightly more complex than
imagined at the start.

In 1970 Bruckmann's was laminating a steel plate on top of a wood base
to build up the engine support frames. Once I understood what was
under all the fiberglass and paint I decided to drill and tap new bolt
holes, using the older ones if possible.

The results when finished were worth the effort. I did re-align the
engine/reduction gear to the prop shaft. The engine vibration
transmitted through the hull was significantly reduced with the added
benefit of being confident that the engine would stay put if the boat
broached or was knocked down in a heavy sea.

One of the least expensive tools to purchase that may help is a small
scissor jack to be used in holding the engine in place while changing
the mounts. Let me know if you want more info on how I approached the
process, but there is much already written about the topic available.

Martin
Calypso
1970 CC 43
Seattle
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Jim Reinardy via CnC-List

When I put in my BG system I was surprised to figure out that not only did it 
need a knot meter for TWD, it wanted a compass transducer as well.  The Zeus 
units won't use their internal COG data for the boat heading let alone speed.
One other note about iPads.  I recently chartered an older boat on vacation 
that only had an old 4 Garmin plotter below.  I used my IPad Air successfully 
from the cockpit, but found that with the internal GPS on, it was draining the 
battery even while plugged in.   Plus, plugging it in near the VHF created 
interference on the radio that made it unusable.  This made me happy I have 
dedicated instruments!
Jim Reinardy CC 30-2 FirewaterMilwaukee, WI

Sent from Outlook




On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:16 AM -0700, John Pennie via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
Interesting comment - thanks.  Curious if that is still the case.

John

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

  I wouldn't install a knot meter - Gps is fine

 No idea with the newer i50/60/70 series, but the older Raymarine
 wind instruments used speed from the knot meter ( wheel in the thru hull )
 for calculating TWS and TWA. There didn't seem to be an option anywhere
 to use GPS speed.

 Fred - any update on that?

 I may at some point upgrade the instruments on Windburn. I have mainly
 ST50, with a new SPX/5 and one i70. The new stuff is nice but how much does
 one spend on a '77 CC 30-1?

 Michael Brown
 Windburn
 CC 30

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread Knowles Rich via CnC-List

Measuring voltage can be misleading unless the voltage is measured when the 
circuit being measured is under load. Digital voltmeters require very little 
power to read voltage and, even with lots of resistance in an unloaded circuit 
under test can indicate full expected voltage. Once the normal load on the 
circuit is applied, the voltage will drop to indicate the true voltage at the 
load.

One very good source of problems in many of the older boats is the one or more 
multi-pole connectors in the engine wiring harness. They have often been there 
for twenty or more years without being touched and corrosion build up due to 
lack of current flow across the individual connectors can lead to excessive 
resistance in the various circuits, false alarms and poor starting.

I suggest as a first approach to trouble shooting any engine related starting 
or alarm problems, finding the connector(s), often there are more than one, 
pulling them apart and reconnecting them several times to clean corrosion off 
the contacts and then testing to see if the problem is resolved. If that 
resolves the problem, I am an advocate of removing the connectors completely 
and replacing them by cutting each conductor back to good, corrosion free wire 
and rejoining them using appropriately sized and crimped heat shrink butt 
connectors. This will generally solve the immediate problem and also help 
reduce further corrosion related problems.

In older boats where un-tinned wire is frequently found and extensive corrosion 
of individual conductors occurs, replacement of the entire length of wire with 
good quality marine grade tinned  wire will help ensure trouble free operation.

Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC
Boatless but rolling in beer!





On Aug 10, 2015, at 20:15, David Knecht via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will not 
start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore power. 
 The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and then 
while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  When I do 
that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button and 
push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired electrical 
engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds good) spent 
some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found two interesting 
things:

1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then 
tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the battery 
to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start button is 
attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring diagram in the 
manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts at the solenoid 
when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So that probably 
explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t work at the same 
time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid.  I will pull the 
starter next winter and have someone test it unless someone has an alternative 
suggestion.

2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power from 
the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from the other 
lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running from the 
downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button should only be 
energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual describes).  If 
that were the case, the I would not be able to start the engine with only the 
start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the wires, we 
found that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of the glow plug 
switch, so that either button will work independently as both are always 
powered.  What I don’t understand is why you would wire it the other way (as 
the manual shows) since that would remove the ability to start the engine 
without the glow plugs (as in an already warm engine).  I don’t know if the PO 
or some yard mechanic made that change or if it is indicated wrong in the 
manual, so I am curious how other Universal panels are wired.  The way it is 
actually wired makes more sense to me than what is in the manual unless I am 
missing something.

Thanks- Dave

Aries
1990 CC 34+
New London, CT

pastedGraphic.tiff

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread dwight veinot via CnC-List

my M4-30 will only start if the glow plug button and start button are
pressed simutaneously so after about 20-30 seconds on the glow plug I then
press the starter but while holding the glow plug button pressed and bingo,
away she goes...the engine starts hard if I don't depress the glow plug
button for at least 20 seconds, longer in colder temperatures like in the
fall... maybe you have some corroison at fuse holders or other connections,
mine has a fuse at the back of the panel (20 amp,IIRC) and another in line
before the starter, also 20 amp and I did have problems with bad contacts
at these fuses so I installed new fuse holders and fuses

Dwight Veinot
CC 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:15 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will
 not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into
 shore power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30
 seconds and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start
 button.  When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the
 glow plug button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My
 father (retired electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in
 this case but sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem
 this weekend and found two interesting things:

 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We
 then tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from
 the battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the
 start button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring
 diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts
 at the solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.
 So that probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter
 won’t work at the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the
 solenoid.  I will pull the starter next winter and have someone test it
 unless someone has an alternative suggestion.

 2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power
 from the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from
 the other lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running
 from the downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button
 should only be energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual
 describes).  If that were the case, the I would not be able to start the
 engine with only the start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the
 engine.  Tracing the wires, we found that the bridging wire actually came
 from the hot side of the glow plug switch, so that either button will work
 independently as both are always powered.  What I don’t understand is why
 you would wire it the other way (as the manual shows) since that would
 remove the ability to start the engine without the glow plugs (as in an
 already warm engine).  I don’t know if the PO or some yard mechanic made
 that change or if it is indicated wrong in the manual, so I am curious how
 other Universal panels are wired.  The way it is actually wired makes more
 sense to me than what is in the manual unless I am missing something.

 Thanks- Dave

 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread Neil Gallagher via CnC-List

The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched 
terminal of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push 
the glow plug switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the 
glow plug switch also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil 
pressure builds up, and silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the 
oil pressure rises, its switch powers the fuel pump.


I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY


On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:
Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine 
will not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged 
into shore power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for 
about 30 seconds and then while continuing to hold that button in, 
push the start button.  When I do that, the starter does not turn 
over. If I release the glow plug button and push the start button the 
engine starts fine.  My father (retired electrical engineer) and I 
(genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds good) spent some 
time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found two 
interesting things:


1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function. 
 We then tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable 
coming from the battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow 
wire from the start button is attached to what I am presuming is the 
solenoid (the wiring diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid). 
 We only measured 8 volts at the solenoid when the button is pushed, 
but 12 volts everywhere else.  So that probably explains the fact that 
both the glow plugs and starter won't work at the same time because we 
appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid.  I will pull the starter 
next winter and have someone test it unless someone has an alternative 
suggestion.


2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the 
power from the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a 
wire from the other lead to the start button.  The manual shows that 
wire running from the downstream side of the glow plug switch so that 
the start button should only be energized when the glow plug button is 
pushed (as the manual describes).  If that were the case, the I would 
not be able to start the engine with only the start button. 
 Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the wires, we found 
that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of the glow 
plug switch, so that either button will work independently as both are 
always powered.  What I don't understand is why you would wire it the 
other way (as the manual shows) since that would remove the ability to 
start the engine without the glow plugs (as in an already warm 
engine).  I don't know if the PO or some yard mechanic made that 
change or if it is indicated wrong in the manual, so I am curious how 
other Universal panels are wired.  The way it is actually wired makes 
more sense to me than what is in the manual unless I am missing something.


Thanks- Dave

Aries
1990 CC 34+
New London, CT




___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread Bill Bina via CnC-List

A reading of only 12 volts on the battery cable when not under the load 
of turning the starter indicates a fairly dead battery.


Bill Bina



-- Forwarded message --
From: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com
mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com
To: CnC CnC discussion list CnC-List@cnc-list.com
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Cc:

1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.
We then tested power at the engine.




There is a heavy red cable

coming from the battery to the starter measured 12V.





The red-yellow

wire from the start button is attached to what I am presuming is the
solenoid (the wiring diagram in the manual does not show a
solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts at the solenoid when the button
is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So that probably explains
the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t work at the same
time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid.  I will
pull the starter next winter and have someone test it unless someone
has an alternative suggestion.

2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the
power from the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then
a wire from the other lead to the start button.  The manual shows
that wire running from the downstream side of the glow plug switch
so that the start button should only be energized when the glow plug
button is pushed (as the manual describes).  If that were the case,
the I would not be able to start the engine with only the start
button.  Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the wires,
we found that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of
the glow plug switch, so that either button will work independently
as both are always powered.  What I don’t understand is why you
would wire it the other way (as the manual shows) since that would
remove the ability to start the engine without the glow plugs (as in
an already warm engine).  I don’t know if the PO or some yard
mechanic made that change or if it is indicated wrong in the manual,
so I am curious how other Universal panels are wired.  The way it is
actually wired makes more sense to me than what is in the manual
unless I am missing something.

Thanks- Dave

Aries
1990 CC 34+
New London, CT




___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Frederick G Street via CnC-List

Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else out 
sailing?

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI



 On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty 
 reliable.  My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re 
 going to spend that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to 
 work when you need it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which 
 is also when the consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then 
 your investment is worthless.
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of an 
 oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical 
 function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore tool 
 than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would disagree with.

 On August 9, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 

 

 Hi, John.  No, you’re not crazy; just be careful with mixing and matching 
 equipment from different vendors.  And as long as you’re putting in modern 
 electronics, there’s no reason I can think of to NOT integrate all of them 
 together; you get benefits like autopilot steering to wind angle or to 
 waypoints; and the ability to repeat GPS, wind, depth and other data out to 
 WiFi if you’re so equipped.  And as far as not having a knot meter, that 
 means you lose the ability to correlate the GPS and boat data to determine if 
 you’re dealing with current set and drift, which can be very helpful.

 

 Only you know what you’d really like to have; but I would at minimum do a 
 full instrument install, and my preference would be for the i70 Sail Pack 
 system if you’re looking at Raymarine.

 

 If you go with the Furuno black box radar, you’re completely blind if your 
 iPad dies.  I’m a fan of having dedicated marine electronics for functions 
 you consider critical; if radar falls into that category, I’d think twice 
 about that setup.

 

 If the current BG autopilot system works well, there’s no reason to replace 
 it; if it takes NMEA0183 data in, I’d definitely convert that from NMEA2000 
 so it can talk with other gear as mentioned above.

 

 If you’d like AIS receive only, consider putting in a VHF radio like the 
 Standard Horizon GX2200, which has separate AIS receivers built in, and can 
 pass that info on to other equipment.  If you’d like to be seen as well, 
 there are a bunch of choices in AIS Class B transponders; I’d recommend one 
 after you nail down the rest of the equipment, so it plays well with 
 everything else.

 

 And finally, chartplotters.  I can see no reason to put in a Raymarine GPS 
 receiver just to give GPS to other gear.  If you’re NOT going to do a plotter 
 (see notes about reliability of iPad and radar…), putting in an AIS-enabled 
 VHF can get you position data just as well.  I’d suggest, though, that you 
 look at the new small MFDs that Simrad, BG, Raymarine and Garmin have out.  
 Under $1000, and you can attach radar, AIS, instruments, etc to get a fully 
 marine-capable system that runs off your boat’s batteries (no limited iPad 
 battery life, which ALWAYS seems to fail when you need it most…).

 

 I’ll be interested to see what others recommend.

 

 Fred Street -- Minneapolis

 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

 

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 

 The basic electronics (bg h1000 system) on Paws have been a challenge since 
 I first got her.  Intermittent failures at the start of each season.  Now 
 depth has failed and of all things it appears to be the transducer.  I'm 
 debating modernizing.  Please tell me if I'm crazy.  A little background:

 

 Close hauled wind indicator is important to me (which I currently don't have)

 The autopilot (BG) is a thing of beauty and will be kept

 There are two Furuno chart plotters running older Navionics charts. Frankly 
 I use the iPad almost exclusively now (nobeltec ap and visual tides being my 
 preference)

 AIS is important to me sailing in NY harbor - also off an iPad ap but would 
 consider upgrading

 I couldn't care less about any interface between chart plotter and auto 
 pilot and/or wind

 The boat does have radar which is never used for our current sailing.  
 Offshore would be a different story and we do do plan another offshore run 
 (Bermuda/Caribbean, etc)

 

 So here's what I'm thinking.

 

 Ray i50/60/70 instruments as a stand alone installation

 Existing auto pilot remains as a stand alone unit

 Replace existing Furuno radar

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me
like the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage.  I would suggest
installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the
starter.  The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and
make similar suggestions.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched
 terminal of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push the
 glow plug switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow
 plug switch also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure
 builds up, and silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the oil pressure
 rises, its switch powers the fuel pump.

 I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

 Neil Gallagher
 Weatherly, 35-1
 Glen Cove, NY


 On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:

 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will
 not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into
 shore power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30
 seconds and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start
 button.  When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the
 glow plug button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My
 father (retired electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in
 this case but sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem
 this weekend and found two interesting things:

 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We
 then tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from
 the battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the
 start button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring
 diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts
 at the solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.
 So that probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter
 won’t work at the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the
 solenoid.  I will pull the starter next winter and have someone test it
 unless someone has an alternative suggestion.

 2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power
 from the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from
 the other lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running
 from the downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button
 should only be energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual
 describes).  If that were the case, the I would not be able to start the
 engine with only the start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the
 engine.  Tracing the wires, we found that the bridging wire actually came
 from the hot side of the glow plug switch, so that either button will work
 independently as both are always powered.  What I don’t understand is why
 you would wire it the other way (as the manual shows) since that would
 remove the ability to start the engine without the glow plugs (as in an
 already warm engine).  I don’t know if the PO or some yard mechanic made
 that change or if it is indicated wrong in the manual, so I am curious how
 other Universal panels are wired.  The way it is actually wired makes more
 sense to me than what is in the manual unless I am missing something.

 Thanks- Dave

 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT




 ___

 Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

2015-08-11 Thread robert via CnC-List


Mike:

Along the line(s) of what Rick was saying about oil levels, I'll add 
this.   My Yanmar 2GMF manual says to put 2 litres of oil in the engine 
after an oil and filter change.the 2 litres will bring the oil level 
on the dipstick to the full mark only if I use a Yanmar oil filter, 
which is quite small.


I use a NAPA 1064 Gold Seal oil filter which is larger than the Yanmar 
is and obviously size and 'volume' of oil it can handle. Therefore, I 
need more than 2 litres when I use the NAPA filter to get the dipstick 
to read fullHow much more exactly?..I haven't measured it 
exactly.I just add the extra oil beyond the 2 litres until the 
dipstick reads full.more often than not since I am not exactly 
measuring the extra oil beyond the 2 litres, the dipstick reads slightly 
above the full mark.  After reading all these comments about oil levels 
in the marine engines, I don't think I will fret about the oil level a 
little above the full mark.


Just something else to think about.

Are you back at the club?

Rob Abbott
AZURA
CC 32 -84
Halifax, N.S.

On 2015-08-10 9:35 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List wrote:


I hate to sound like the Grinch, and I just know that I am going to, but…

I don’t know what engine you have (presume it is a Yanmar), and I know 
that most of us ignore the proper procedure from time to time, but I 
can virtually guarantee that your owner’s manual calls for you to 
check the oil level before you start the engine each time. I ignore 
proper procedure myself; my typical practice is to not check if I will 
be motoring for 15 or 20 minutes but to always check before and after 
any periods when I run the engine for an hour or more. And I check the 
engine oil and coolant on OPB’s I am delivering and on charters every 
morning before the client gets up.


And “the middle of the safe zone” is really a low oil situation. Your 
dipstick is most likely in the back end of the oil pan and the engine 
is installed at a 10 to 15 degree slant. “Middle of the safe range” 
might be as low as a quart of oil. When I fill my Universal with the 
required 3 ½ quarts of oil during an oil change, the oil level is 
above the top mark on the dipstick by a significant margin. Think of 
the marks as: Top – OK, full; Bottom – shut down the engine; and In 
Between – add oil.


The possibility of a lower than optimal oil level, combined with the 
long run at high RPMs and an older engine would seem to make the 
earlier suggestion that the oil was not circulating back to the oil 
pan sufficiently to keep the oil pressure above the alarm level a 
fairly plausible explanation of the behavior you described. I suspect 
the behavior you report for the alarm and light is another 
manifestation of the wiring problems typical of Yanmar panels.


You report 40 or so hours of engine use in the last 20 days. If use 
has been like this since May, you are due for an oil change about now 
anyway (I can’t recall if a Yanmar is every 50 hours or every 100). 
I’d change the oil and filter, being sure to fully top off the oil, 
and look at the wiring harness to identify the corrosion or loose 
connection causing the erratic operation of the alarm. Then see if the 
situation reappears in the future


Rick Brass

Washington, NC

Formerly Yanmar and Cummins certified technician and trainer for a 
forklift manufacturer


*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List

*Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 3:29 PM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Cc:* Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.com
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

Rich

Me too!

I checked the level on the dipstick immediately after stopping 
engine.  Was middle of “safe” zone.  Plan to change oil and filter on 
the weekend, remove panel, check wiring and check oil pressure.  Boat 
had done a motor sail from Halifax to St Peters July 23-24 (25 hours 
motor) , St Peters to Dundee July 25 (mostly sail), Dundee to Baddeck 
Aug 2 (5.5 hrs mostly motor).  Every day last week motor on for 20-30 
minutes going to race and 10 coming back.  Then the next day 5.5 hrs 
Baddeck to Dundee (motor) .  I cannot call this a period of little use.


There was another boat named Indigo in Baddeck last week BTW

Mike

Persistence




___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

Interesting discussion.  Sounds at this point like there are two different 
Universal wiring setups with some having hot to the start button and some hot 
through the glow plug button.


 On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:04 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 David,
 
 Sounds like your ignition circuit has been modified. As another lister said, 
 the glow plug button activates the fuel pump
not on my boat.  The key switch activates the fuel pump
 and glow plugs and silences the oil pressure alarm.
never heard an oil pressure alarm
 Pushing the start button without pushing the glow plug button should not 
 activate the starter.
Not according to the manual, but it should the way mine is wired
  I just tried it on my Universal to be sure. 
 
 Second, I wonder about the condition of your battery.  It might be weak. 
2 year old AGM trickle charged full with solar panel and reading 12.7 volts.  
Same response with either battery or both at the same time.
 
 Third, as stated in earlier replies, voltage is not a good indicator of a 
 circuits ability to pass current. 
agreed but 12.7 at all other points and 8 at the solenoid says to me the 
problem is there???  Didn’t someone mention having their solenoid replaced or 
fixed?  If the solenoid were not making good contact when closed, wouldn’t it 
have these symptoms?
 
 Dennis C.
 Touché 35-1 #83
 Mandeville, LA
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will 
 not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore 
 power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds 
 and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  
 When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug 
 button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired 
 electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but 
 sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and 
 found two interesting things:
 
 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then 
 tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the 
 battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start 
 button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring 
 diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts 
 at the solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So 
 that probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t 
 work at the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the 
 solenoid.  I will pull the starter next winter and have someone test it 
 unless someone has an alternative suggestion.
 
 2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power from 
 the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from the 
 other lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running from the 
 downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button should only 
 be energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual describes).  
 If that were the case, the I would not be able to start the engine with only 
 the start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the 
 wires, we found that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of 
 the glow plug switch, so that either button will work independently as both 
 are always powered.  What I don’t understand is why you would wire it the 
 other way (as the manual shows) since that would remove the ability to start 
 the engine without the glow plugs (as in an already warm engine).  I don’t 
 know if the PO or some yard mechanic made that change or if it is indicated 
 wrong in the manual, so I am curious how other Universal panels are wired.  
 The way it is actually wired makes more sense to me than what is in the 
 manual unless I am missing something.
 
 Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com 
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

David;

 

Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive
mechanics often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less
than optimal. For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City
Docks diagnose why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work
reliably. Turned out the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from
the glow plug button - the downstream side of the glow plug button - so the
fuel gauge was only powered up when the glow plug button was pushed.

 

Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the
manner described in the owner's manual. I would restore the wiring to what
is shown in the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons. 

 

Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage
(about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not
pushed, 0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button
not pushed, and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was pushed.
When you push the button you are energizing the coil of the solenoid and
creating what is almost a dead short across the solenoid. What you were
measuring between the solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage drop that
results from resistance in the coil, resistance in the metal of the starter,
resistance across the bolts holding the starter in place, and resistance in
the metal of the block as the current travels from the solenoid terminal to
the ground wire. 8v is a bit lower than I would expect, but I see nothing
unusual in such a reading. Your starter and solenoid are fine.

 

As Neil pointed out, pressing the glow plug button does a lot of things. 

 

Of course it powers the glow plugs, which are in essence a high resistance
short in the wiring, and the voltage at the output side of the glow plug
button will drop into the 11.5v to 12.0 v range. Powering the glow plugs
heats the air flowing into the combustion chambers, which is needed for a
cold start and improves starting during hot starts. In indirect injection
diesels (where fuel is injected into the airflow before the intake valve
instead of directly into the hot compressed air just before the conclusion
of the compression stroke) the glow plugs are needed to get good initial
combustion. Hot air makes the starting easier and faster, reduces the load
and cranking time on your starter, and ultimately how much current you draw
from the battery to start the engine.

 

The glow plug button also powers the electric lift pump that supplies fuel
at 4 or 5 PSI (it might be as high as 7 PSI, but I don't recall exactly)
through the engine fuel filter to the inlet of the high pressure injection
pump. That lift pump coming up to pressure is the rapid clicking sound you
hear for the first few seconds after you push the glow plug button. After
the engine starts, the pump is powered off the oil pressure switch as Neil
described.  In a hot start situation without power to the lift pump, the
high pressure pump will supply fuel to the injectors for a few engine
rotations. But if the engine does not start the pump will be starved for
fuel and the engine will not start. Fuel starvation becomes more likely as
your fuel filters get plugged over time.

 

As I said, I'd put the wiring back to what it was supposed to be according
to the manual and the wiring diagram.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David
Knecht via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:16 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com
Subject: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 

Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will
not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore
power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds
and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.
When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug
button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired
electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but
sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and
found two interesting things:

 

1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then
tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the
battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start
button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring
diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts
at the solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So
that probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won't
work at the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the
solenoid.  I will pull the starter next winter and have someone test it
unless

Re: Stus-List Volvo penta 2003 air silencer

2015-08-11 Thread Bill Hoyne via CnC-List

The AirSep looks like it could work for me. Unfortunately Volvo stopped making 
this part so is unavailable even at volvo dollars. 
Cheers
-bill

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:55 AM, Martin DeYoung via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 I put an AirSep  air filter/silencer on Calypso's Perkins 4-108 and it did 
 reduce the intake noise.  It has been a while since I have heard the engine 
 with out the AirSep  in place but IIRC  it mostly reduced the roaring 
 sound of the air rushing through the intake.
  
 The AirSep  also recycles blow by oil mist directly back into the oil pan.  
 On Calypso's older, high hours engine the blow by handling is nice feature. 
 (BTW this 4-108 is Calypso's second engine installed around 1990 by the prior 
 owner.  I estimate it has about 2,000 hours.)
  
 I expect an AirSep  for your engine would cost more than the Volvo part, 
 but maybe not as I have heard Volvo parts can be expensive.
  
 Martin
 Calypso
 1971 CC  43
 Seattle
 From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Bill Hoyne via 
 CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:36 AM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: Bill Hoyne
 Subject: Stus-List Volvo penta 2003 air silencer
 
 Hi All,
 
 I have a old (no surprise there)volvo penta 2003 and my mechanic said if I 
 put an intake air silencer (part no 840691) on it would reduce the noise 
 level of the engine. 
 Volvo unfortunately no longer makes these things. Can they be found? (No luck 
 yet with search) Is there a better way to do this with other aftermarket 
 parts?
  More importantly will this reduce the volume of noise my engine makes?
 
 Cheers,
 Bill
 
 Mithrandir
 ’74 CC35 MkII
 in Victoria,BC
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

David,

Sounds like your ignition circuit has been modified. As another lister said, 
the glow plug button activates the fuel pump and glow plugs and silences the 
oil pressure alarm. Pushing the start button without pushing the glow plug 
button should not activate the starter.  I just tried it on my Universal to be 
sure. 

Second, I wonder about the condition of your battery.  It might be weak. 

Third, as stated in earlier replies, voltage is not a good indicator of a 
circuits ability to pass current. 

Dennis C.
Touché 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 10, 2015, at 10:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will 
 not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore 
 power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and 
 then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  When I 
 do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button 
 and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired 
 electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds 
 good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found 
 two interesting things:
 
 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then 
 tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the 
 battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start 
 button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring diagram 
 in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts at the 
 solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So that 
 probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t work at 
 the same time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid.  I will 
 pull the starter next winter and have someone test it unless someone has an 
 alternative suggestion.
 
 2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power from 
 the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from the 
 other lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running from the 
 downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button should only 
 be energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual describes).  
 If that were the case, the I would not be able to start the engine with only 
 the start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the 
 wires, we found that the bridging wire actually came from the hot side of the 
 glow plug switch, so that either button will work independently as both are 
 always powered.  What I don’t understand is why you would wire it the other 
 way (as the manual shows) since that would remove the ability to start the 
 engine without the glow plugs (as in an already warm engine).  I don’t know 
 if the PO or some yard mechanic made that change or if it is indicated wrong 
 in the manual, so I am curious how other Universal panels are wired.  The way 
 it is actually wired makes more sense to me than what is in the manual unless 
 I am missing something.
 
 Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the first 
Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on the panel.

 

Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you power 
the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of 
resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of normal capacity, the 
voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe 0.1v or less. But that 
happens any time you put a load on the system. Doesn’t the voltage shown on 
your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn on the 
lights in the cabin? Same thing.

 

The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the starting 
voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective glow plug 
that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short from battery 
to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let all the smoke 
out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical engineering joke 
coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a typically a 20 amp fuse in 
the power wire that supplies the engine panel.

 

Putting a solenoid into the system so the button engages the solenoid and the 
solenoid powers the glow plugs really doesn’t accomplish anything. Unless you 
have the unlikely confluence of a short in the solenoid and a short in a glow 
plug, in which case you get a short direct from battery to ground and you let 
the smoke out of the whole boat.

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:03 AM
To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 

I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me like 
the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage.  I would suggest 
installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the 
starter.  The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and 
make similar suggestions.

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD 

On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com  wrote:

The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched terminal 
of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push the glow plug 
switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow plug switch 
also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure builds up, and 
silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the oil pressure rises, its switch 
powers the fuel pump.

I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY



On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:

Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will not 
start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore power. 
 The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and then 
while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  When I do 
that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button and 
push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired electrical 
engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds good) spent 
some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found two interesting 
things: 

 

1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then 
tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the battery 
to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start button is 
attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring diagram in the 
manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts at the solenoid 
when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.  So that probably 
explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter won’t work at the same 
time because we appear to be losing 4 volts in the solenoid.  I will pull the 
starter next winter and have someone test it unless someone has an alternative 
suggestion.

 

2.  The wiring diagram in the manual (Fig 2 on page 13) shows the power from 
the key switch coming into the glow plug button and then a wire from the other 
lead to the start button.  The manual shows that wire running from the 
downstream side of the glow plug switch so that the start button should only be 
energized when the glow plug button is pushed (as the manual describes).  If 
that were the case, the I would not be able to start the engine with only the 
start button.  Nevertheless, it does start the engine.  Tracing the wires, we 
found that the bridging wire

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring; what about Yanmar?

There are no glow plugs or electronic priming pump.

If the engine hasn't been run or if you want to prelube the engine then
you (or a helper) can pull the decompression levers for a few seconds while
trying to start.  Release the decompression levers while still pushing the
start button and let the engine start.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
Yanmar 3HM35F
On Aug 11, 2015 11:35 AM, Richard N. Bush via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I have read this thread with interest, but I have a Yanmar, and realize
 that they are going to be different, however, there are principles which
 should apply to all engines...so, to those more knowledgeable than me, what
 should I be looking for on my 3HMF Yanmar?   (and, thank you to all who
 have gone to such lengths to make sure we who are not so mechanically
 inclined can understand and benefit from this discussion!)

 Richard
 1985 CC 37, CB, Ohio River, Mile 584.4;

 Richard N. Bush
 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
 Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
 502-584-7255


 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: Rick Brass rickbr...@earthlink.net
 Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 11:17 am
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 David;

 Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive
 mechanics often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less
 than optimal. For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City
 Docks diagnose why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work
 reliably. Turned out the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from
 the glow plug button – the downstream side of the glow plug button – so the
 fuel gauge was only powered up when the glow plug button was pushed.

 Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the
 manner described in the owner’s manual. I would restore the wiring to what
 is shown in the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons.

 Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage
 (about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not
 pushed, 0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button
 not pushed, and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was
 pushed. When you push the button you are energizing the coil of the
 solenoid and creating what is almost a dead short across the solenoid. What
 you were measuring between the solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage
 drop that results from resistance in the coil, resistance in the metal of
 the starter, resistance across the bolts holding the starter in place, and
 resistance in the metal of the block as the current travels from the
 solenoid terminal to the ground wire. 8v is a bit lower than I would
 expect, but I see nothing unusual in such a reading. Your starter and
 solenoid are fine.

 As Neil pointed out, pressing the glow plug button does a lot of things.

 Of course it powers the glow plugs, which are in essence a high resistance
 short in the wiring, and the voltage at the output side of the glow plug
 button will drop into the 11.5v to 12.0 v range. Powering the glow plugs
 heats the air flowing into the combustion chambers, which is needed for a
 cold start and improves starting during hot starts. In indirect injection
 diesels (where fuel is injected into the airflow before the intake valve
 instead of directly into the hot compressed air just before the conclusion
 of the compression stroke) the glow plugs are needed to get good initial
 combustion. Hot air makes the starting easier and faster, reduces the load
 and cranking time on your starter, and ultimately how much current you draw
 from the battery to start the engine.

 The glow plug button also powers the electric lift pump that supplies fuel
 at 4 or 5 PSI (it might be as high as 7 PSI, but I don’t recall exactly)
 through the engine fuel filter to the inlet of the high pressure injection
 pump. That lift pump coming up to pressure is the rapid clicking sound you
 hear for the first few seconds after you push the glow plug button. After
 the engine starts, the pump is powered off the oil pressure switch as Neil
 described.  In a hot start situation without power to the lift pump, the
 high pressure pump will supply fuel to the injectors for a few engine
 rotations. But if the engine does not start the pump will be starved for
 fuel and the engine will not start. Fuel starvation becomes more likely as
 your fuel filters get plugged over time.

 As I said, I’d put the wiring back to what it was supposed to be according
 to the manual and the wiring diagram.


 Rick Brass
 Washington, NC



 *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
 cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com?] *On Behalf Of *David Knecht via CnC-List
 *Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 11:16 PM
 *To:* CnC CnC discussion list CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 *Cc:* David Knecht

Re: Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

2015-08-11 Thread Martin DeYoung via CnC-List

Diesel engines can runaway using lube oil as fuel but it is more likely on 
engines with turbo chargers.  The lube oil can leak through the turbo's bearing 
seals.  Back when I was completing my merchant marine training, the engineering 
instructor showed a video of a 6-71 running away to destruction.



If you are ever faced with a diesel that will not shut down, the recommended 
response is to stave it for air by blocking the intake.  Never use your hand.  
Less combustible materials that are handy in most boats will work.  In a pinch 
use your wife's foul weather gear.



It a great idea not to over fill the crankcase both for the runaway issue but 
also to reduce lube oil leakage, especially on older engines.  For Calypso's 
Perkins I noticed and increase in oil leaks when I switched to a higher 
detergent oil and had a full crankcase.  The leakage was less as the level 
dropped then went back to normal when I went back to Delo 100, a lower 
detergent oil.



Martin

Calypso

1971 CC 43

Seattle


From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of Jean-Francois J 
Rivard via CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 8:50 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard
Subject: Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

Hi Rob,

I was told by more than 1 mechanic to be very careful about never over-filling 
the oil in my 3GM30F..  In fact they recommended keeping it between the middle 
and about 2/3 full level on the stick.  The reason for that is to avoid a 
run-away engine condition..

Apparently the excess oil can get splashed by the piston skirts and somehow 
make its way into the combustion chamber  / burn away without throttle control. 
 I was even advised to keep a rag handy near the engine to stuff it into the 
air intake and stop it should all else fail..

I am not speaking form experience, but I was told it happens more often than 
one might think.

Best regards,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five
Lake Lanier, GA

   Mike:

  Along the line(s) of what Rick was saying about oil levels, I'll add
  this.   My Yanmar 2GMF manual says to put 2 litres of oil in the engine
  after an oil and filter change.the 2 litres will bring the oil level
  on the dipstick to the full mark only if I use a Yanmar oil filter,
  which is quite small.

  I use a NAPA 1064 Gold Seal oil filter which is larger than the Yanmar
  is and obviously size and 'volume' of oil it can handle. Therefore, I
  need more than 2 litres when I use the NAPA filter to get the dipstick
  to read fullHow much more exactly?..I haven't measured it
  exactly.I just add the extra oil beyond the 2 litres until the
  dipstick reads full.more often than not since I am not exactly
  measuring the extra oil beyond the 2 litres, the dipstick reads slightly
  above the full mark.  After reading all these comments about oil levels
  in the marine engines, I don't think I will fret about the oil level a
  little above the full mark.

  Just something else to think about.

  Are you back at the club?

  Rob Abbott
  AZURA
  CC 32 -84
  Halifax, N.S.

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Universal Diesel Supplies

2015-08-11 Thread Edd Schillay via CnC-List

Listers,

I have:
3 Oil Filters (FRAM PH3593A)
6 Quarts of Rotella T1 SAE30 Oil
3 Belts (Universal 300817)
All new, in boxes, never used. Can’t use any of it in my new Beta 30. 

FREE!!! First person to send me a UPS Shipping label gets them. 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/










___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread D Harben via CnC-List

I enjoy sailing by what I see wind doing and anticipating the changes coming by 
observing water, clouds and shorelines. When I have raced with wind instruments 
I have found them useful to backup and verify my thinking but not as a primary 
tool. I am wondering about an accurate flu gate compass as that is a primary 
decision making tool upwind and downwind. My reading suggests that accurate and 
replicable wind data costs big $. 

I am thinking of radar alarms to alert me to boats and land that my feeble d 
brain cells miss. Rain, fog and blowing stink oh



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade now Luddite Alert!

David,

I agree that autopilot does not mean sail blindly because the electronics
are working.  When sailing to a waypoint, its nice to know that it SHOULD
be compensating for current, drift etc.

Joel

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:42 AM, David via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 To drill down a wee bit deeper vis a vis autopilots and interfaces.  Call
 me a Luddite, but I have never been a fan of plotters directly (or blindly)
 feeding autopilots when there are strong variables (wind, current, etc)
 involved.   I like to be the interface so I know what is going on in case
 all the electronics goes down.

 And they will.

 At the worst possible time.

 David F. Risch
 1980-40-2
 (401) 419-4650 (cell)


 --
 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:30:34 -0400
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade
 From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 CC: joel.aron...@gmail.com

 Fred,

 You gave the definitive answer!

 I agree you want data to be shared but the displays to work independently
 of each other so if, for example, the radar display fails you can still get
 data on the plotter etc. Also, the autopilot should be connected to the
 plotter, especially if you sail in an area with strong currents.

 Joel

 On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else
 out sailing?

 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI



 On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty
 reliable.  My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re
 going to spend that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to
 work when you need it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which
 is also when the consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then
 your investment is worthless.

 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of
 an oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical
 function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore tool
 than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would disagree
 with.


 On August 9, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:



 Hi, John.  No, you’re not crazy; just be careful with mixing and matching
 equipment from different vendors.  And as long as you’re putting in modern
 electronics, there’s no reason I can think of to NOT integrate all of them
 together; you get benefits like autopilot steering to wind angle or to
 waypoints; and the ability to repeat GPS, wind, depth and other data out to
 WiFi if you’re so equipped.  And as far as not having a knot meter, that
 means you lose the ability to correlate the GPS and boat data to determine
 if you’re dealing with current set and drift, which can be very helpful.


 Only you know what you’d really like to have; but I would at minimum do a
 full instrument install, and my preference would be for the i70 Sail Pack
 system if you’re looking at Raymarine.


 If you go with the Furuno black box radar, you’re completely blind if your
 iPad dies.  I’m a fan of having dedicated marine electronics for functions
 you consider critical; if radar falls into that category, I’d think twice
 about that setup.


 If the current BG autopilot system works well, there’s no reason to
 replace it; if it takes NMEA0183 data in, I’d definitely convert that from
 NMEA2000 so it can talk with other gear as mentioned above.


 If you’d like AIS receive only, consider putting in a VHF radio like the
 Standard Horizon GX2200, which has separate AIS receivers built in, and can
 pass that info on to other equipment.  If you’d like to be seen as well,
 there are a bunch of choices in AIS Class B transponders; I’d recommend one
 after you nail down the rest of the equipment, so it plays well with
 everything else.


 And finally, chartplotters.  I can see no reason to put in a Raymarine GPS
 receiver just to give GPS to other gear.  If you’re NOT going to do a
 plotter (see notes about reliability of iPad and radar…), putting in an
 AIS-enabled VHF can get you position data just as well.  I’d suggest,
 though, that you look at the new small MFDs that Simrad, BG, Raymarine and
 Garmin have out.  Under $1000, and you can attach radar, AIS, instruments,
 etc to get a fully marine-capable system that runs off your boat’s
 batteries (no limited iPad battery life, which ALWAYS seems to fail when
 you need it most…).


 I’ll be interested to see what others recommend.


 Fred Street -- Minneapolis

 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI


 On Aug

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring; what about Yanmar?

2015-08-11 Thread Richard N. Bush via CnC-List


 I have read this thread with interest, but I have a Yanmar, and realize that 
they are going to be different, however, there are principles which should 
apply to all engines...so, to those more knowledgeable than me, what should I 
be looking for on my 3HMF Yanmar?   (and, thank you to all who have gone to 
such lengths to make sure we who are not so mechanically inclined can 
understand and benefit from this discussion!) 

 


Richard
1985 CC 37, CB, Ohio River, Mile 584.4;

Richard N. Bush 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Rick Brass rickbr...@earthlink.net
Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 11:17 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring



David;
 
Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive mechanics 
often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less than optimal. 
For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City Docks diagnose 
why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work reliably. Turned out 
the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from the glow plug button – the 
downstream side of the glow plug button – so the fuel gauge was only powered up 
when the glow plug button was pushed.
 
Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the manner 
described in the owner’s manual. I would restore the wiring to what is shown in 
the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons. 
 
Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage 
(about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not pushed, 
0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button not pushed, 
and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was pushed. When you push 
the button you are energizing the coil of the solenoid and creating what is 
almost a dead short across the solenoid. What you were measuring between the 
solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage drop that results from resistance 
in the coil, resistance in the metal of the starter, resistance across the 
bolts holding the starter in place, and resistance in the metal of the block as 
the current travels from the solenoid terminal to the ground wire. 8v is a bit 
lower than I would expect, but I see nothing unusual in such a reading. Your 
starter and solenoid are fine.
 
As Neil pointed out, pressing the glow plug button does a lot of things. 
 
Of course it powers the glow plugs, which are in essence a high resistance 
short in the wiring, and the voltage at the output side of the glow plug button 
will drop into the 11.5v to 12.0 v range. Powering the glow plugs heats the air 
flowing into the combustion chambers, which is needed for a cold start and 
improves starting during hot starts. In indirect injection diesels (where fuel 
is injected into the airflow before the intake valve instead of directly into 
the hot compressed air just before the conclusion of the compression stroke) 
the glow plugs are needed to get good initial combustion. Hot air makes the 
starting easier and faster, reduces the load and cranking time on your starter, 
and ultimately how much current you draw from the battery to start the engine.
 
The glow plug button also powers the electric lift pump that supplies fuel at 4 
or 5 PSI (it might be as high as 7 PSI, but I don’t recall exactly) through the 
engine fuel filter to the inlet of the high pressure injection pump. That lift 
pump coming up to pressure is the rapid clicking sound you hear for the first 
few seconds after you push the glow plug button. After the engine starts, the 
pump is powered off the oil pressure switch as Neil described.  In a hot start 
situation without power to the lift pump, the high pressure pump will supply 
fuel to the injectors for a few engine rotations. But if the engine does not 
start the pump will be starved for fuel and the engine will not start. Fuel 
starvation becomes more likely as your fuel filters get plugged over time.
 
As I said, I’d put the wiring back to what it was supposed to be according to 
the manual and the wiring diagram.
 
 
Rick Brass
Washington, NC
 
 
 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 11:16 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com
Subject: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 
Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will not 
start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore power. 
 The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and then 
while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  When I do 
that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button and 
push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father

Stus-List Universal panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread Mitchell's via CnC-List

For what it's worth and if you like to read, www.c34.org (Catalina 34 owners 
forum) has some good information on universal Diesel engines  wiring. It isn't 
all appropriate to our CCs but worth a look. Some common problems. Some wiring 
diagrams. Cheers,
Len Mitchell
Crazy Legs 
Midland On
1989 37+

Sent from my mobile device.
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread D Harben via CnC-List

 I am following closely!  I have been giving Signet antiques TLC, while using 
 an iPad Air in a LifeProof case. The iPad has navionics chart plotting, AIS 
 over cell etc etc etc. My iPhone 5 carries the identical software and 
 settings as backup. 

The downside is keeping waterproof power is not effective. I have it powered on 
non stormy days. 

New! I have been gifted by folks looking out for me. They have surprised me 
with a 7 Raymarine hybrid touch and knob. It is very slick with the Lighhouse 
updates. My iPad and iPhone perform well as repeaters. 

Next Steps, probably in order of priority:
- depth
- AIS send receive
- speed
- radar
- wind

Don___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade now Luddite Alert!

Truly.  As I found out last year when passing through a bridge. Some magnetic 
interference probably caused by cables crossing the channel caused my wheel 
pilot to turn sharply to port. Had I not quickly disengaged it, it could have 
been ugly. 

Dennis C.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:42 AM, David via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 To drill down a wee bit deeper vis a vis autopilots and interfaces.  Call me 
 a Luddite, but I have never been a fan of plotters directly (or blindly) 
 feeding autopilots when there are strong variables (wind, current, etc) 
 involved.   I like to be the interface so I know what is going on in case all 
 the electronics goes down.  
 
 And they will.  
 
 At the worst possible time.
 
 David F. Risch
 1980-40-2
 (401) 419-4650 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Dave Godwin via CnC-List

Sanding. Not sailing...

I'm in agreement with dedicated marine units with iPad-like devices as 
additional sources of info.

Will be segregating electronics when rebuild projects nears the end. Of course 
at my present rate of work most instruments will use virtual reality outputs...

Dave
1982 CC 37 - Ronin 

Dave


Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else out 
 sailing?
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 
 
 On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty 
 reliable.  My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re 
 going to spend that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to 
 work when you need it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which 
 is also when the consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then 
 your investment is worthless.
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of 
 an oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical 
 function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore 
 tool than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would 
 disagree with.
 
 
 On August 9, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
 Hi, John.  No, you’re not crazy; just be careful with mixing and matching 
 equipment from different vendors.  And as long as you’re putting in modern 
 electronics, there’s no reason I can think of to NOT integrate all of them 
 together; you get benefits like autopilot steering to wind angle or to 
 waypoints; and the ability to repeat GPS, wind, depth and other data out to 
 WiFi if you’re so equipped.  And as far as not having a knot meter, that 
 means you lose the ability to correlate the GPS and boat data to determine 
 if you’re dealing with current set and drift, which can be very helpful.
 
 
 
 Only you know what you’d really like to have; but I would at minimum do a 
 full instrument install, and my preference would be for the i70 Sail Pack 
 system if you’re looking at Raymarine.
 
 
 
 If you go with the Furuno black box radar, you’re completely blind if your 
 iPad dies.  I’m a fan of having dedicated marine electronics for functions 
 you consider critical; if radar falls into that category, I’d think twice 
 about that setup.
 
 
 
 If the current BG autopilot system works well, there’s no reason to replace 
 it; if it takes NMEA0183 data in, I’d definitely convert that from NMEA2000 
 so it can talk with other gear as mentioned above.
 
 
 
 If you’d like AIS receive only, consider putting in a VHF radio like the 
 Standard Horizon GX2200, which has separate AIS receivers built in, and can 
 pass that info on to other equipment.  If you’d like to be seen as well, 
 there are a bunch of choices in AIS Class B transponders; I’d recommend one 
 after you nail down the rest of the equipment, so it plays well with 
 everything else.
 
 
 
 And finally, chartplotters.  I can see no reason to put in a Raymarine GPS 
 receiver just to give GPS to other gear.  If you’re NOT going to do a 
 plotter (see notes about reliability of iPad and radar…), putting in an 
 AIS-enabled VHF can get you position data just as well.  I’d suggest, 
 though, that you look at the new small MFDs that Simrad, BG, Raymarine and 
 Garmin have out.  Under $1000, and you can attach radar, AIS, instruments, 
 etc to get a fully marine-capable system that runs off your boat’s batteries 
 (no limited iPad battery life, which ALWAYS seems to fail when you need it 
 most…).
 
 
 
 I’ll be interested to see what others recommend.
 
 
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 
 
 On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 
 
 The basic electronics (bg h1000 system) on Paws have been a challenge 
 since I first got her.  Intermittent failures at the start of each season.  
 Now depth has failed and of all things it appears to be the transducer.  
 I'm debating modernizing.  Please tell me if I'm crazy.  A little 
 background:
 
 
 
 Close hauled wind indicator is important to me (which I currently don't 
 have)
 
 The autopilot (BG) is a thing of beauty and will be kept
 
 There are two Furuno chart plotters running older Navionics charts. Frankly 
 I use the iPad almost exclusively now (nobeltec ap and visual tides being 
 my preference)
 
 AIS is important to me sailing in NY harbor - also off an iPad ap but would 
 consider upgrading
 
 I couldn't care less

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Knowles Rich via CnC-List

Nuttin’ to sail, so I’ll chuck my two cents in.

You are correct, Fred. I ran my old Furuno CRT radar for 18 years, and it’s 
still going strong with the new owner, never let me down, and never tried to 
jump overboard as phones and pads sometimes do. I find that laptops are 
excessive power consumers and, counting the cost of software, are often more 
expensive that a decent purpose-built plotter and far more fragile when the 
duct tape wears out and they fall on the cabin or cockpit sole.

Gadgets are great, but take care and feeding.

Rich Knowles
Nanaimo, BC

Boatless!


On Aug 11, 2015, at 08:18, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else out 
sailing?

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI



 On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty 
 reliable.  My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re 
 going to spend that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to 
 work when you need it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which 
 is also when the consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then 
 your investment is worthless.
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of an 
 oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical 
 function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore tool 
 than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would disagree with.

 On August 9, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 

 

 Hi, John.  No, you’re not crazy; just be careful with mixing and matching 
 equipment from different vendors.  And as long as you’re putting in modern 
 electronics, there’s no reason I can think of to NOT integrate all of them 
 together; you get benefits like autopilot steering to wind angle or to 
 waypoints; and the ability to repeat GPS, wind, depth and other data out to 
 WiFi if you’re so equipped.  And as far as not having a knot meter, that 
 means you lose the ability to correlate the GPS and boat data to determine if 
 you’re dealing with current set and drift, which can be very helpful.

 

 Only you know what you’d really like to have; but I would at minimum do a 
 full instrument install, and my preference would be for the i70 Sail Pack 
 system if you’re looking at Raymarine.

 

 If you go with the Furuno black box radar, you’re completely blind if your 
 iPad dies.  I’m a fan of having dedicated marine electronics for functions 
 you consider critical; if radar falls into that category, I’d think twice 
 about that setup.

 

 If the current BG autopilot system works well, there’s no reason to replace 
 it; if it takes NMEA0183 data in, I’d definitely convert that from NMEA2000 
 so it can talk with other gear as mentioned above.

 

 If you’d like AIS receive only, consider putting in a VHF radio like the 
 Standard Horizon GX2200, which has separate AIS receivers built in, and can 
 pass that info on to other equipment.  If you’d like to be seen as well, 
 there are a bunch of choices in AIS Class B transponders; I’d recommend one 
 after you nail down the rest of the equipment, so it plays well with 
 everything else.

 

 And finally, chartplotters.  I can see no reason to put in a Raymarine GPS 
 receiver just to give GPS to other gear.  If you’re NOT going to do a plotter 
 (see notes about reliability of iPad and radar…), putting in an AIS-enabled 
 VHF can get you position data just as well.  I’d suggest, though, that you 
 look at the new small MFDs that Simrad, BG, Raymarine and Garmin have out.  
 Under $1000, and you can attach radar, AIS, instruments, etc to get a fully 
 marine-capable system that runs off your boat’s batteries (no limited iPad 
 battery life, which ALWAYS seems to fail when you need it most…).

 

 I’ll be interested to see what others recommend.

 

 Fred Street -- Minneapolis

 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

 

 On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 

 The basic electronics (bg h1000 system) on Paws have been a challenge since 
 I first got her.  Intermittent failures at the start of each season.  Now 
 depth has failed and of all things it appears to be the transducer.  I'm 
 debating modernizing.  Please tell me if I'm crazy.  A little background:

 

 Close hauled wind indicator is important to me (which I currently don't have)

 The autopilot (BG) is a thing of beauty and will

Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

2015-08-11 Thread Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List

Hi Rob, 

I was told by more than 1 mechanic to be very careful about never 
over-filling the oil in my 3GM30F..  In fact they recommended keeping it 
between the middle and about 2/3 full level on the stick.  The reason for 
that is to avoid a run-away engine condition.. 

Apparently the excess oil can get splashed by the piston skirts and 
somehow make its way into the combustion chamber  / burn away without 
throttle control.  I was even advised to keep a rag handy near the engine 
to stuff it into the air intake and stop it should all else fail.. 

I am not speaking form experience, but I was told it happens more often 
than one might think. 

Best regards, 

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five 
Lake Lanier, GA

   Mike:

  Along the line(s) of what Rick was saying about oil levels, I'll add 
  this.   My Yanmar 2GMF manual says to put 2 litres of oil in the 
engine 
  after an oil and filter change.the 2 litres will bring the oil 
level 
  on the dipstick to the full mark only if I use a Yanmar oil filter, 
  which is quite small.

  I use a NAPA 1064 Gold Seal oil filter which is larger than the Yanmar 

  is and obviously size and 'volume' of oil it can handle. Therefore, I 
  need more than 2 litres when I use the NAPA filter to get the dipstick 

  to read fullHow much more exactly?..I haven't measured it 
  exactly.I just add the extra oil beyond the 2 litres until the 
  dipstick reads full.more often than not since I am not exactly 
  measuring the extra oil beyond the 2 litres, the dipstick reads 
slightly 
  above the full mark.  After reading all these comments about oil 
levels 
  in the marine engines, I don't think I will fret about the oil level a 

  little above the full mark.

  Just something else to think about.

  Are you back at the club?

  Rob Abbott
  AZURA
  CC 32 -84
  Halifax, N.S.


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade now Luddite Alert!

2015-08-11 Thread D Harben via CnC-List

... Argh yes! I carry a VHF/DSC/GPS and knife on me as I single hand... however 
... Getting close to the Raymarine 2000+ causes it to lust after them ...

Don
V34
NCYC

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 magnetic interference probably caused by cables crossing the channel caused 
 my wheel pilot to turn sharply to port

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.
This equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders equals ~24amps.  That's a pretty
good amount of current draw.  The way Maine Sailor makes it sound the panel
is the choke point and all the current for the glo-plugs AND starter
solenoid has to come from the panel and through various plug connectors and
relatively small gauge wire.  Each adding it's own amount of additional
resistance.  Not to mention poor connections, burnt contacts, and
corrosion.  I'm not surprised at all to see the voltage dragged down enough
to prevent the starter solenoid from being able to close.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
On Aug 11, 2015 11:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the
 first Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on
 the panel.



 Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you
 power the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple
 thousand ohms of resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of
 normal capacity, the voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe
 0.1v or less. But that happens any time you put a load on the system.
 Doesn’t the voltage shown on your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to
 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn on the lights in the cabin? Same thing.



 The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the
 starting voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective
 glow plug that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short
 from battery to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let
 all the smoke out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical
 engineering joke coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a
 typically a 20 amp fuse in the power wire that supplies the engine panel.



 Putting a solenoid into the system so the button engages the solenoid and
 the solenoid powers the glow plugs really doesn’t accomplish anything.
 Unless you have the unlikely confluence of a short in the solenoid and a
 short in a glow plug, in which case you get a short direct from battery to
 ground and you let the smoke out of the whole boat.





 Rick Brass

 Washington, NC







 *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
 Muckley via CnC-List
 *Sent:* Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:03 AM
 *To:* CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 *Cc:* Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
 *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring



 I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me
 like the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage.  I would suggest
 installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the
 starter.  The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and
 make similar suggestions.

 http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade

 http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting

 Josh Muckley
 S/V Sea Hawk
 1989 CC 37+
 Solomons, MD

 On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched
 terminal of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push the
 glow plug switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow
 plug switch also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure
 builds up, and silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the oil pressure
 rises, its switch powers the fuel pump.

 I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

 Neil Gallagher
 Weatherly, 35-1
 Glen Cove, NY

 On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:

 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will
 not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into
 shore power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30
 seconds and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start
 button.  When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the
 glow plug button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My
 father (retired electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in
 this case but sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem
 this weekend and found two interesting things:



 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We
 then tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from
 the battery to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the
 start button is attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring
 diagram in the manual does not show a solenoid).  We only measured 8 volts
 at the solenoid when the button is pushed, but 12 volts everywhere else.
 So that probably explains the fact that both the glow plugs and starter
 won’t work at

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

Don,

Congrats!  I don't have the latest OS on my plotter, but the Ray app. drops
in and out on my boat.

I'd want wind before radar, but we don't have fog on the Chesapeake.

Joel

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, D Harben via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I am following closely!  I have been giving Signet antiques TLC, while
 using an iPad Air in a LifeProof case. The iPad has navionics chart
 plotting, AIS over cell etc etc etc. My iPhone 5 carries the identical
 software and settings as backup.


 The downside is keeping waterproof power is not effective. I have it
 powered on non stormy days.

 New! I have been gifted by folks looking out for me. They have surprised
 me with a 7 Raymarine hybrid touch and knob. It is very slick with the
 Lighhouse updates. My iPad and iPhone perform well as repeaters.

 Next Steps, probably in order of priority:
 - depth
 - AIS send receive
 - speed
 - radar
 - wind

 Don

 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com





-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade now Luddite Alert!

2015-08-11 Thread David via CnC-List

To drill down a wee bit deeper vis a vis autopilots and interfaces.  Call me a 
Luddite, but I have never been a fan of plotters directly (or blindly) feeding 
autopilots when there are strong variables (wind, current, etc) involved.   I 
like to be the interface so I know what is going on in case all the electronics 
goes down.  

And they will.  

At the worst possible time.

David F. Risch
1980-40-2
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:30:34 -0400
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: joel.aron...@gmail.com

Fred,
You gave the definitive answer!  
I agree you want data to be shared but the displays to work independently of 
each other so if, for example, the radar display fails you can still get data 
on the plotter etc. Also, the autopilot should be connected to the plotter, 
especially if you sail in an area with strong currents.
Joel
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else out 
sailing?


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI




On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty reliable. 
 My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re going to spend 
that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to work when you need 
it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which is also when the 
consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then your investment is 
worthless.


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI


On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:
Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of an 
oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical 
function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore tool 
than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would disagree with.
On August 9, 2015 at 4:47 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

Hi, John.  No, you’re not crazy; just be careful with mixing and matching 
equipment from different vendors.  And as long as you’re putting in modern 
electronics, there’s no reason I can think of to NOT integrate all of them 
together; you get benefits like autopilot steering to wind angle or to 
waypoints; and the ability to repeat GPS, wind, depth and other data out to 
WiFi if you’re so equipped.  And as far as not having a knot meter, that means 
you lose the ability to correlate the GPS and boat data to determine if you’re 
dealing with current set and drift, which can be very helpful.
Only you know what you’d really like to have; but I would at minimum do a full 
instrument install, and my preference would be for the i70 Sail Pack system if 
you’re looking at Raymarine.
If you go with the Furuno black box radar, you’re completely blind if your iPad 
dies.  I’m a fan of having dedicated marine electronics for functions you 
consider critical; if radar falls into that category, I’d think twice about 
that setup.
If the current BG autopilot system works well, there’s no reason to replace 
it; if it takes NMEA0183 data in, I’d definitely convert that from NMEA2000 so 
it can talk with other gear as mentioned above.
If you’d like AIS receive only, consider putting in a VHF radio like the 
Standard Horizon GX2200, which has separate AIS receivers built in, and can 
pass that info on to other equipment.  If you’d like to be seen as well, there 
are a bunch of choices in AIS Class B transponders; I’d recommend one after you 
nail down the rest of the equipment, so it plays well with everything else.
And finally, chartplotters.  I can see no reason to put in a Raymarine GPS 
receiver just to give GPS to other gear.  If you’re NOT going to do a plotter 
(see notes about reliability of iPad and radar…), putting in an AIS-enabled VHF 
can get you position data just as well.  I’d suggest, though, that you look at 
the new small MFDs that Simrad, BG, Raymarine and Garmin have out.  Under 
$1000, and you can attach radar, AIS, instruments, etc to get a fully 
marine-capable system that runs off your boat’s batteries (no limited iPad 
battery life, which ALWAYS seems to fail when you need it most…).
I’ll be interested to see what others recommend.
Fred Street -- MinneapolisS/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:30 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:
The basic electronics (bg h1000 system) on Paws have been a challenge since I 
first got her.  Intermittent failures at the start of each season.  Now depth 
has failed and of all things it appears to be the transducer.  I'm debating 
modernizing.  Please tell me if I'm crazy.  A little background:

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring; what about Yanmar?

Key on, buzzer and light indicating low oil pressure, put throttle at 1/4
to 1/2 and in neutral, push start button for no more than 10 sec (prevents
damage to starter and prevents water coming back from the water lift
muffler), assuming engine starts release the button and verify that the
alarm stops, throttle down to idle.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
Yanmar 3HM35F
On Aug 11, 2015 11:35 AM, Richard N. Bush via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I have read this thread with interest, but I have a Yanmar, and realize
 that they are going to be different, however, there are principles which
 should apply to all engines...so, to those more knowledgeable than me, what
 should I be looking for on my 3HMF Yanmar?   (and, thank you to all who
 have gone to such lengths to make sure we who are not so mechanically
 inclined can understand and benefit from this discussion!)

 Richard
 1985 CC 37, CB, Ohio River, Mile 584.4;

 Richard N. Bush
 2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
 Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462
 502-584-7255


 -Original Message-
 From: Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: Rick Brass rickbr...@earthlink.net
 Sent: Tue, Aug 11, 2015 11:17 am
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 David;

 Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive
 mechanics often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less
 than optimal. For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City
 Docks diagnose why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work
 reliably. Turned out the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from
 the glow plug button – the downstream side of the glow plug button – so the
 fuel gauge was only powered up when the glow plug button was pushed.

 Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the
 manner described in the owner’s manual. I would restore the wiring to what
 is shown in the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons.

 Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage
 (about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not
 pushed, 0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button
 not pushed, and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was
 pushed. When you push the button you are energizing the coil of the
 solenoid and creating what is almost a dead short across the solenoid. What
 you were measuring between the solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage
 drop that results from resistance in the coil, resistance in the metal of
 the starter, resistance across the bolts holding the starter in place, and
 resistance in the metal of the block as the current travels from the
 solenoid terminal to the ground wire. 8v is a bit lower than I would
 expect, but I see nothing unusual in such a reading. Your starter and
 solenoid are fine.

 As Neil pointed out, pressing the glow plug button does a lot of things.

 Of course it powers the glow plugs, which are in essence a high resistance
 short in the wiring, and the voltage at the output side of the glow plug
 button will drop into the 11.5v to 12.0 v range. Powering the glow plugs
 heats the air flowing into the combustion chambers, which is needed for a
 cold start and improves starting during hot starts. In indirect injection
 diesels (where fuel is injected into the airflow before the intake valve
 instead of directly into the hot compressed air just before the conclusion
 of the compression stroke) the glow plugs are needed to get good initial
 combustion. Hot air makes the starting easier and faster, reduces the load
 and cranking time on your starter, and ultimately how much current you draw
 from the battery to start the engine.

 The glow plug button also powers the electric lift pump that supplies fuel
 at 4 or 5 PSI (it might be as high as 7 PSI, but I don’t recall exactly)
 through the engine fuel filter to the inlet of the high pressure injection
 pump. That lift pump coming up to pressure is the rapid clicking sound you
 hear for the first few seconds after you push the glow plug button. After
 the engine starts, the pump is powered off the oil pressure switch as Neil
 described.  In a hot start situation without power to the lift pump, the
 high pressure pump will supply fuel to the injectors for a few engine
 rotations. But if the engine does not start the pump will be starved for
 fuel and the engine will not start. Fuel starvation becomes more likely as
 your fuel filters get plugged over time.

 As I said, I’d put the wiring back to what it was supposed to be according
 to the manual and the wiring diagram.


 Rick Brass
 Washington, NC



 *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
 cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com?] *On Behalf Of *David Knecht via CnC-List
 *Sent:* Monday, August 10, 2015 11:16 PM
 *To:* CnC CnC discussion list CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 *Cc:* David Knecht

Re: Stus-List CnC-List Digest, Vol 115, Issue 36

2015-08-11 Thread Garry Cross via CnC-List

I disagree with your point about 8V at the starter solenoid. In a brand new
system with good wiring the only load is the solenoid. When 12V is applied
to it, the voltage drop across it is 12V. If it is not then there is some
other load in series between the source and the solenoid.
On the other side if there was a poor ground you would have 12V on the
input side and some other voltage on the ground side. It is just basic
electricity 101.

When two loads are in series the voltage drop across each will be in
proportion to the ratio of the two resistances. An example would be a
solenoid with 2 ohms resistance and a feed circuit with 1 ohm of
resistance. In this case the drop across 2 ohms is 8V and across the 1 ohm
is 4V.

V/R = I, total resistance is 3 ohms 12/3 = 4 amps.

In this example 1 x 4 + 2 x 4 = 12

Looking at it another way, if you can get 12V across the solenoid it will
draw 6 amps. In the example 4 amps may not be enough to draw the solenoid
contacts together to energize the starter.





-- Forwarded message --
 From: Rick Brass rickbr...@earthlink.net
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc:
 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:17:02 -0400
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 David;



 Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive
 mechanics often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less
 than optimal. For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City
 Docks diagnose why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work
 reliably. Turned out the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from
 the glow plug button – the downstream side of the glow plug button – so the
 fuel gauge was only powered up when the glow plug button was pushed.



 Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the
 manner described in the owner’s manual. I would restore the wiring to what
 is shown in the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons.



 Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage
 (about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not
 pushed, 0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button
 not pushed, and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was
 pushed. When you push the button you are energizing the coil of the
 solenoid and creating what is almost a dead short across the solenoid. What
 you were measuring between the solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage
 drop that results from resistance in the coil, resistance in the metal of
 the starter, resistance across the bolts holding the starter in place, and
 resistance in the metal of the block as the current travels from the
 solenoid terminal to the ground wire. 8v is a bit lower than I would
 expect, but I see nothing unusual in such a reading. Your starter and
 solenoid are fine.



 As Neil pointed out, pressing the glow plug button does a lot of things.



 Of course it powers the glow plugs, which are in essence a high resistance
 short in the wiring, and the voltage at the output side of the glow plug
 button will drop into the 11.5v to 12.0 v range. Powering the glow plugs
 heats the air flowing into the combustion chambers, which is needed for a
 cold start and improves starting during hot starts. In indirect injection
 diesels (where fuel is injected into the airflow before the intake valve
 instead of directly into the hot compressed air just before the conclusion
 of the compression stroke) the glow plugs are needed to get good initial
 combustion. Hot air makes the starting easier and faster, reduces the load
 and cranking time on your starter, and ultimately how much current you draw
 from the battery to start the engine.



 The glow plug button also powers the electric lift pump that supplies fuel
 at 4 or 5 PSI (it might be as high as 7 PSI, but I don’t recall exactly)
 through the engine fuel filter to the inlet of the high pressure injection
 pump. That lift pump coming up to pressure is the rapid clicking sound you
 hear for the first few seconds after you push the glow plug button. After
 the engine starts, the pump is powered off the oil pressure switch as Neil
 described.  In a hot start situation without power to the lift pump, the
 high pressure pump will supply fuel to the injectors for a few engine
 rotations. But if the engine does not start the pump will be starved for
 fuel and the engine will not start. Fuel starvation becomes more likely as
 your fuel filters get plugged over time.



 As I said, I’d put the wiring back to what it was supposed to be according
 to the manual and the wiring diagram.





 Rick Brass

 Washington, NC



 ___
 CnC-List mailing list
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread John Pennie via CnC-List

Curious what your experience has been re power and bad weather.  The reasoning 
behind using an iPad as opposed to a purpose built plotter is that the iPad 
will be aboard regardless.  It’s the plotter that is the extra piece.  Again, 
keep in mind this is assuming a waterproof iPad case and mount similar to what 
you would put a chart plotter into.  I’m just not certain how much of the 
broken iPad horror stories are with real mounts as opposed to it just sitting 
out in the cockpit ( or how much this is Raytheon really doesn’t want to 
compete with Apple).

John


Agree on the laptop battery consumption
 On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:32 AM, D Harben via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 I am following closely!  I have been giving Signet antiques TLC, while using 
 an iPad Air in a LifeProof case. The iPad has navionics chart plotting, AIS 
 over cell etc etc etc. My iPhone 5 carries the identical software and 
 settings as backup. 
 
 The downside is keeping waterproof power is not effective. I have it powered 
 on non stormy days. 
 
 New! I have been gifted by folks looking out for me. They have surprised me 
 with a 7 Raymarine hybrid touch and knob. It is very slick with the 
 Lighhouse updates. My iPad and iPhone perform well as repeaters. 
 
 Next Steps, probably in order of priority:
 - depth
 - AIS send receive
 - speed
 - radar
 - wind
 
 Don
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread Leslie Paal via CnC-List

To run 10 amps through the glow plugs they can not be more than 1.2 ohms, from 
a 12V battery.  A couple thousand ohms would allow only 6 mA, barely enough to 
lite a LED...   ;-)

Leslie.
(one of my degrees is EE.)


 down the starting voltage. When you power the glow plugs you
 are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of
 resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

2015-08-11 Thread John Irvin via CnC-List

Sure glad I have an Atomic 4!

-Original Message-
From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎11 12:27 PM
To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.   This 
equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders equals ~24amps.  That's a pretty good 
amount of current draw.  The way Maine Sailor makes it sound the panel is the 
choke point and all the current for the glo-plugs AND starter solenoid has to 
come from the panel and through various plug connectors and relatively small 
gauge wire.  Each adding it's own amount of additional resistance.  Not to 
mention poor connections, burnt contacts, and corrosion.  I'm not surprised at 
all to see the voltage dragged down enough to prevent the starter solenoid from 
being able to close.
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD 
On Aug 11, 2015 11:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the first 
Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on the panel.

Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you power 
the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of 
resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of normal capacity, the 
voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe 0.1v or less. But that 
happens any time you put a load on the system. Doesn’t the voltage shown on 
your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn on the 
lights in the cabin? Same thing.

The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the starting 
voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective glow plug 
that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short from battery 
to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let all the smoke 
out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical engineering joke 
coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a typically a 20 amp fuse in 
the power wire that supplies the engine panel.

Putting a solenoid into the system so the button engages the solenoid and the 
solenoid powers the glow plugs really doesn’t accomplish anything. Unless you 
have the unlikely confluence of a short in the solenoid and a short in a glow 
plug, in which case you get a short direct from battery to ground and you let 
the smoke out of the whole boat.

Rick Brass
Washington, NC

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:03 AM
To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me like 
the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage.  I would suggest 
installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the 
starter.  The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and 
make similar suggestions.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting
Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD 
On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:
The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched terminal 
of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push the glow plug 
switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow plug switch 
also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure builds up, and 
silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the oil pressure rises, its switch 
powers the fuel pump.

I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:
Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine will not 
start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into shore power. 
 The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30 seconds and then 
while continuing to hold that button in, push the start button.  When I do 
that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the glow plug button and 
push the start button the engine starts fine.  My father (retired electrical 
engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in this case but sounds good) spent 
some time trying to diagnose the problem this weekend and found two interesting 
things: 

1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We then 
tested power at the engine.  There is a heavy red cable coming from the battery 
to the starter measured 12V.  The red-yellow wire from the start button is 
attached to what I am presuming is the solenoid (the wiring diagram in

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread John Pennie via CnC-List

Fred - agree on the dome itself just curious on the reliability of the router.  
Also, I would think the dedicated Furuno network is a nuisance at best.

John




 On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Not too many listers chiming in on this topic.  Anyone?  Is everyone else out 
 sailing?
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 
 
 On Aug 10, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 John — like most Furuno gear, I imagine the black-box radar is pretty 
 reliable.  My concern is with the other gear needed to use it.  If you’re 
 going to spend that much on buying and installing a system, you want it to 
 work when you need it.  And that’s generally when conditions are bad; which 
 is also when the consumer stuff (laptop, iPad, etc) is going to fail.  Then 
 your investment is worthless.
 
 Fred Street -- Minneapolis
 S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI
 
 On Aug 9, 2015, at 9:07 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Any thoughts on the reliability of the Furuno unit itself?  It's a bit of 
 an oddity but has been on the market for a while.  Radar is not a critical 
 function to me (except when it is) but I view this more of an offshore tool 
 than anything else.  Just my opinion which I'm sure most would disagree 
 with.
 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

John,
the biggest problem with the IPad is keeping it charged.  A waterproof case
is not waterproof if there is a wire dangling out of it (unless I bought
the wrong case).  Be sure you have a 2.4 amp socket-  most are 2.1 amps.
Carry extra charging cables.  Salt air rusts them out in no time!
Second problem is viewing in bright sun.
Its touch screen is way better than the Ray.  Going to Bermuda we used the
IPad to control the Ray when the Ray touchscreen was not responsive.
Joel

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 1:49 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 Curious what your experience has been re power and bad weather.  The
 reasoning behind using an iPad as opposed to a purpose built plotter is
 that the iPad will be aboard regardless.  It’s the plotter that is the
 extra piece.  Again, keep in mind this is assuming a waterproof iPad case
 and mount similar to what you would put a chart plotter into.  I’m just not
 certain how much of the broken iPad horror stories are with real mounts as
 opposed to it just sitting out in the cockpit ( or how much this is
 Raytheon really doesn’t want to compete with Apple).

 John


 Agree on the laptop battery consumption

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 11:32 AM, D Harben via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 wrote:

 I am following closely!  I have been giving Signet antiques TLC, while
 using an iPad Air in a LifeProof case. The iPad has navionics chart
 plotting, AIS over cell etc etc etc. My iPhone 5 carries the identical
 software and settings as backup.


 The downside is keeping waterproof power is not effective. I have it
 powered on non stormy days.

 New! I have been gifted by folks looking out for me. They have surprised
 me with a 7 Raymarine hybrid touch and knob. It is very slick with the
 Lighhouse updates. My iPad and iPhone perform well as repeaters.

 Next Steps, probably in order of priority:
 - depth
 - AIS send receive
 - speed
 - radar
 - wind

 Don
 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com





-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread John Pennie via CnC-List

Interesting comment - thanks.  Curious if that is still the case.

John

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
  I wouldn't install a knot meter - Gps is fine 
 
 No idea with the newer i50/60/70 series, but the older Raymarine
 wind instruments used speed from the knot meter ( wheel in the thru hull )
 for calculating TWS and TWA. There didn't seem to be an option anywhere
 to use GPS speed.
 
 Fred - any update on that?
 
 I may at some point upgrade the instruments on Windburn. I have mainly
 ST50, with a new SPX/5 and one i70. The new stuff is nice but how much does
 one spend on a '77 CC 30-1?
 
 Michael Brown
 Windburn
 CC 30

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Frederick G Street via CnC-List

Michael — you’re correct, you need boat speed through the water to calculate 
TWA and TWS from the AWA and AWS you get from the masthead wind transducer.  
I’ve not seen it calculated using GPS SOG.

And you definitely need to be able to compare boat speed and heading with 
SOG/COG to calculate set and drift from current.  So I’d say a knotmeter is a 
pretty important piece of gear on the boat.  Necessary to doing dead reckoning, 
too — if all the other electronics go down, you can do a lot of navigating with 
magnetic compass and knotmeter.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- Bayfield, WI

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 12:58 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 No idea with the newer i50/60/70 series, but the older Raymarine
 wind instruments used speed from the knot meter ( wheel in the thru hull )
 for calculating TWS and TWA. There didn't seem to be an option anywhere
 to use GPS speed.
 
 Fred - any update on that?
 
 I may at some point upgrade the instruments on Windburn. I have mainly
 ST50, with a new SPX/5 and one i70. The new stuff is nice but how much does
 one spend on a '77 CC 30-1?
 
 Michael Brown
 Windburn
 CC 30-1

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Yanmar question

2015-08-11 Thread Leslie Paal via CnC-List

The kill cable broke on my 2GM20, at the engine end.  The cause (I think) was 
that as the arm moved the wire was flexing where it was clamped to the arm.  My 
question: should that clamp (square block of metal with a hole for the wire and 
a screw to clamp) rotate in the arm.  Mine does not.  Can be because of 
corrosion, does not want to force it if it does not meant to rotate...

Thanks,  Leslie.
Phoenix, CC32 (1983)



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

4 glo-plugs ~2ohms each wired in parallel equals ~0.5ohms total.  ~12v ÷
~0.5ohms = ~24amps.
On Aug 11, 2015 2:10 PM, Leslie Paal via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 To run 10 amps through the glow plugs they can not be more than 1.2 ohms,
 from a 12V battery.  A couple thousand ohms would allow only 6 mA, barely
 enough to lite a LED...   ;-)

 Leslie.
 (one of my degrees is EE.)
 

  down the starting voltage. When you power the glow plugs you
  are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of
  resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of


 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Yanmar question

Yes it should rotate.  I think mine is held on with a cotter pin or a clip.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
Yanmar 3HM35F
On Aug 11, 2015 2:25 PM, Leslie Paal via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 The kill cable broke on my 2GM20, at the engine end.  The cause (I
 think) was that as the arm moved the wire was flexing where it was clamped
 to the arm.  My question: should that clamp (square block of metal with a
 hole for the wire and a screw to clamp) rotate in the arm.  Mine does not.
 Can be because of corrosion, does not want to force it if it does not meant
 to rotate...

 Thanks,  Leslie.
 Phoenix, CC32 (1983)



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

Makes me glad i have a yanmar!  No glo-plugs, no priming pump.  Just starts.
On Aug 11, 2015 2:28 PM, John Irvin via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 Sure glad I have an Atomic 4!
 --
 From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Sent: ‎2015-‎08-‎11 12:27 PM
 To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.
 This equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders equals ~24amps.  That's a pretty
 good amount of current draw.  The way Maine Sailor makes it sound the panel
 is the choke point and all the current for the glo-plugs AND starter
 solenoid has to come from the panel and through various plug connectors and
 relatively small gauge wire.  Each adding it's own amount of additional
 resistance.  Not to mention poor connections, burnt contacts, and
 corrosion.  I'm not surprised at all to see the voltage dragged down enough
 to prevent the starter solenoid from being able to close.

 Josh Muckley
 S/V Sea Hawk
 1989 CC 37+
 Solomons, MD
 On Aug 11, 2015 11:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 wrote:

 In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the
 first Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on
 the panel.

 Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you
 power the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple
 thousand ohms of resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of
 normal capacity, the voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe
 0.1v or less. But that happens any time you put a load on the system.
 Doesn’t the voltage shown on your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to
 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn on the lights in the cabin? Same thing.

 The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the
 starting voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective
 glow plug that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short
 from battery to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let
 all the smoke out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical
 engineering joke coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a
 typically a 20 amp fuse in the power wire that supplies the engine panel.

 Putting a solenoid into the system so the button engages the solenoid and
 the solenoid powers the glow plugs really doesn’t accomplish anything.
 Unless you have the unlikely confluence of a short in the solenoid and a
 short in a glow plug, in which case you get a short direct from battery to
 ground and you let the smoke out of the whole boat.

 Rick Brass

 Washington, NC

 *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh
 Muckley via CnC-List
 *Sent:* Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:03 AM
 *To:* CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 *Cc:* Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
 *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 I don't have a universal or any experience with one but it sounds to me
 like the glow plugs are drawing down the starting voltage.  I would suggest
 installing a solenoid for the glow plugs in addition to a solenoid for the
 starter.  The 2 articles below talk about poorly wired universal panels and
 make similar suggestions.

 http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_wiring_harness_upgrade

 http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solder_trouble_shooting

 Josh Muckley
 S/V Sea Hawk
 1989 CC 37+
 Solomons, MD

 On Aug 11, 2015 8:50 AM, Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 The power to the starter button is supposed to come off the switched
 terminal of the glow plug button.  You are supposed to to have to push the
 glow plug switch and the starter switch every time you start, as the glow
 plug switch also powers both the electric fuel pump until the oil pressure
 builds up, and silences the low oil pressure alarm.  Once the oil pressure
 rises, its switch powers the fuel pump.

 I put an M30B in our club launch and it has the same setup.

 Neil Gallagher
 Weatherly, 35-1
 Glen Cove, NY

 On 8/10/2015 11:15 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List wrote:

 Since I got my boat, I have been bothered by the fact that the engine
 will not start in the way it is described in the manual unless plugged into
 shore power.  The manual says to hold the glow plug button for about 30
 seconds and then while continuing to hold that button in, push the start
 button.  When I do that, the starter does not turn over. If I release the
 glow plug button and push the start button the engine starts fine.  My
 father (retired electrical engineer) and I (genetic engineer- useless in
 this case but sounds good) spent some time trying to diagnose the problem
 this weekend and found two interesting things:

 1.  The buttons both tested fine in terms of their switch function.  We
 then tested

Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Daniel Sheer via CnC-List

So here's another 2 cents. 

My Garmin chartplotter has not yet lost a GPS signal. My smartphones (Androids 
all) do, when the clouds get real thick. Such is the value of the antenna. I 
was extremely thankful for the chartplotter going into Woods Hole in pea soup. 

That said, the charts on my phones are raster images of real charts and the 
charts on the Garmin are inferior, with level of detail dependent on zoom 
level. At least with the raster charts I can see a speck and know I should zoom 
in. The speck just ain't there on the Garmin. Such is the value of charts at 
the maximum level of detail, plus it's easy and cheap to keep 'em up to date. 
Also have the latest raster charts on a pc with a separate gps antenna, but 
it's down below. Much bigger screen, if I need it.

And then, when the charts are wrong, having them is worse than not having them, 
'cause you tend to trust them. This led to some Caribbean style (color of the 
water) navigation in high wind in Nantucket sound. Could'a used some local 
knowledge. My druthers is to have 'em both - plotter and raster charts on a 
smart device.
Speaking of local knowledge, I also have the Active Captain charts and database 
on the computer. Very helpful, and getting more so. What I don't have anymore, 
fool that I am, is paper charts. But that's another topic.
2 cents worth. Boy, words are cheap.

Dan SheerPegathy - LF38Rock Creek off the Patapsco



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Trimming the main

Dave,

That applies close-hauled.  The last foot or so at the leech.
Telltales on the leech are a better tool for fine tuning.

Joel
35/3

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 4:23 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I have read in several places that one guideline for mainsail trim is to
 make the upper batten parallel with the boom.  My upper batten is full
 length with adjustable tension, so it is curved.  In this situation, what
 part of the batten would theoretically want to be parallel with the boom?
 Thanks- Dave

 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com





-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Trimming the main

I have read in several places that one guideline for mainsail trim is to make 
the upper batten parallel with the boom.  My upper batten is full length with 
adjustable tension, so it is curved.  In this situation, what part of the 
batten would theoretically want to be parallel with the boom?  Thanks- Dave

Aries
1990 CC 34+
New London, CT



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Trimming the main

A straight line drawn between the luff (leading) and leach (trailing)
edges.  This would represent a sail with little or no twist.  To achieve
this you may need vang and main sheet pulling the leach tight(er)(ish).

Be advised that the battens don't need much tension.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
On Aug 11, 2015 4:24 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 I have read in several places that one guideline for mainsail trim is to
 make the upper batten parallel with the boom.  My upper batten is full
 length with adjustable tension, so it is curved.  In this situation, what
 part of the batten would theoretically want to be parallel with the boom?
 Thanks- Dave

 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT



 ___

 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
 bottom of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Trimming the main

David,

Is your main a 3 + 1?  That is, top full batten and 3 partials below.  If so, 
you should focus on the second, or top partial batten not the top full batten. 

Upwind, boom on centerline, second batten guideline:

Light breeze - slightly hooked to weather. 

Moderate breeze - parallel to boom. 

Heavy breeze - twisted off to leeward to reduce heel. 

Dennis C.

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 11, 2015, at 3:23 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 I have read in several places that one guideline for mainsail trim is to make 
 the upper batten parallel with the boom.  My upper batten is full length with 
 adjustable tension, so it is curved.  In this situation, what part of the 
 batten would theoretically want to be parallel with the boom?  Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List CnC-List Digest, Vol 115, Issue 36

You are correct, Garry, it is electricity 101. And the calculations are in line 
with the principals taught in electricity 101.

 

As a matter of practicality, it does not matter what the current associated 
with the 8 volt reading is. The engine starts when you push the start button. 

 

Any good solenoid will pull in with somewhere near 1 amp. No I have not tried 
to look up the spec for pull in voltage for the particular solenoid on a 
Universal diesel. If you put six amps across the solenoid, that is 5 more than 
you should need. No harm, no foul, unless the current flow is high enough to 
overheat and burn out the coil in the solenoid. I presume whoever engineered 
the starter put in some internal resistance to limit the current to a safe 
level. And that the person who selected the starter for this engine at 
Westerbeke/Universal took the current flow into account when designing the 
panel and wiring harness.

 

Also as a matter of practicality it is not possible to measure the voltage drop 
across the solenoid alone, since it is an integral part of the starter. 
Measuring the voltage drop between the solenoid connection on the starter and 
ground includes the voltage losses associated with the rest of the structure 
that were listed in my earlier post. 

 

Also see the comments I made about the system voltage (between B+ and ground) 
dropping below 10.5v when the starter is engaged and there are 200 amps (+ or 
-) flowing from the start battery through the starter. Sort of makes the 
calculations at 12v with only a theoretical resistance of the solenoid coil 
moot.

 

Remember the original question was not “Why does my engine not start?”. It was 
“Why is my panel wiring different from what is shown in the wiring diagram and 
the starting procedure different than that shown in the owner’s manual?”

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Garry Cross 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:33 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Garry Cross garr...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List CnC-List Digest, Vol 115, Issue 36

 

I disagree with your point about 8V at the starter solenoid. In a brand new 
system with good wiring the only load is the solenoid. When 12V is applied to 
it, the voltage drop across it is 12V. If it is not then there is some other 
load in series between the source and the solenoid.  

On the other side if there was a poor ground you would have 12V on the input 
side and some other voltage on the ground side. It is just basic electricity 
101. 

When two loads are in series the voltage drop across each will be in proportion 
to the ratio of the two resistances. An example would be a solenoid with 2 ohms 
resistance and a feed circuit with 1 ohm of resistance. In this case the drop 
across 2 ohms is 8V and across the 1 ohm is 4V. 

V/R = I, total resistance is 3 ohms 12/3 = 4 amps. 

In this example 1 x 4 + 2 x 4 = 12

Looking at it another way, if you can get 12V across the solenoid it will draw 
6 amps. In the example 4 amps may not be enough to draw the solenoid contacts 
together to energize the starter. 

 


 

 

-- Forwarded message --
From: Rick Brass rickbr...@earthlink.net mailto:rickbr...@earthlink.net 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: 
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:17:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

David;

 

Previous owners, shade tree mechanics, and inexperienced/inexpensive mechanics 
often make repairs or modifications that are ill advised or less than optimal. 
For example, I recently helped one of the boaters on our City Docks diagnose 
why his recently replaced fuel gauge did not seem to work reliably. Turned out 
the guy who replaced the gauge had gotten power from the glow plug button – the 
downstream side of the glow plug button – so the fuel gauge was only powered up 
when the glow plug button was pushed.

 

Universals and Westerbekes are designed to be wired and started in the manner 
described in the owner’s manual. I would restore the wiring to what is shown in 
the wiring diagram, for a couple of reasons. 

 

Regarding the 8V at the starter solenoid terminal: You saw battery voltage 
(about 12.6v) on the hot side of the starter button with the button not pushed, 
0v on the output side of the starter button with the start button not pushed, 
and then 8v at the solenoid terminal when the button was pushed. When you push 
the button you are energizing the coil of the solenoid and creating what is 
almost a dead short across the solenoid. What you were measuring between the 
solenoid terminal and ground is the voltage drop that results from resistance 
in the coil, resistance in the metal of the starter, resistance across the 
bolts holding the starter in place, and resistance in the metal of the block as 
the current travels from the solenoid terminal to the ground wire. 8v is a bit 
lower than I would expect, but I see nothing unusual in such a

Re: Stus-List Yanmar engine mounts replacement

2015-08-11 Thread svpegasus38







Hi PatrickNot sure a sissor jack will fit. You might have to get creative 
in supporting the nack of the engine. For realignment purposes, I would 
recommend measuring the existing height of the mounts. That will get you close 
for realigning the shaft. I think the hull will support half of the engine 
weight.  You might try devising a lever out of a 2x4 and?? For raising the 
engine. The prop shaft and shaft log are in the way for using a jack (I think). 
Holler if you need any help. 
Doug MountjoysvPegasusLF38 just west of Ballard, WA.




-- Original message--From: Patrick Davin via CnC-List Date: Tue, Aug 
11, 2015 20:30To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com;Cc: Patrick Davin;Subject:Stus-List 
Yanmar engine mounts replacement
Anyone have tips for replacing engine mounts on a Yanmar 3HM? In terms of the 
logistics, like how to prop up the engine, get the old mounts out, etc. 
I have the transmission out now for a rebuild (fwd clutch failed) so it's the 
perfect time to replace mounts. I'm just going to do the forward two (back end 
of v-drive engine) because those are the two the mechanical inspection 
(purchase survey at the start of this year) said were delaminating. Plus 
Gallery Marine in Seattle has two in stock, not four. If this goes easily maybe 
I'll consider replacing the aft two. 
I'm going to go with the OEM mounts instead of PYI since several online reviews 
said Yanmar OEMs were significantly better (and they look it too - a lot more 
rubber for vibration dampening). The engine vibrates a fair amount now, and a 
slight misalignment might be what caused the transmission premature wear. 

Copying a mail from Martin below in 2013 on the list. Martin, I'd be interested 
in hearing more if you still recall the work you did (even though your engine 
is a Perkins, so the mounts are different). What did you mean by the existing 
engine mount bolts didn't meet your standards? I'm ignorant of what the issue 
with lag and stripped threaded bolts is. I'm expecting the existing mounts may 
be hard to get out because the bolts/nuts look a bit rusted on. 
I saw your suggestion of a scissor jack, but I'm not sure where I would place 
that? The engine doesn't have super good flat surfaces between it and the hull. 
And the plates the mounts attach to look too small to fit a jack in. I've read 
that the mount nuts can just be used to raise the engine until its raised 
enough to slip the mounts out (block it with scrap wood at that point). Is that 
actually the best way? I have some pictures I could upload.
Thanks! Hoping to do this project in the next two weeks, which is how long it 
will take Harbor Marine to get to the transmission. I thought boats knew not to 
break in the summer months, but I guess not!

-PatrickS/V Violet Hour, LF38Seattle, WA, now in Elliott Bay marina
Martin DeYoung mdeyoung at deyoungmfg.com 
Wed May 22 13:38:22 EDT 2013
I replaced all 4 of Calypso's engine mounts (Perkins 4-108) a while back.  I 
used the RD Engine Mounts offered by PYI, Inc.  As none of the existing engine 
mount bolts met my standards ( a combo of lag and stripped threaded bolts) the 
job became slightly more complex than imagined at the start.In 1970 Bruckmann's 
was laminating a steel plate on top of a wood base to build up the engine 
support frames.  Once I understood what was under all the fiberglass and paint 
I decided to drill and tap new bolt holes, using the older ones if possible.The 
results when finished were worth the effort.  I did re-align the 
engine/reduction gear to the prop shaft.  The engine vibration transmitted 
through the hull was significantly reduced with the added benefit of being 
confident that the engine would stay put if the boat broached or was knocked 
down in a heavy sea.One of the least expensive tools to purchase that may help 
is a small scissor jack to be used in holding the engine in place while 
changing the mounts. Let me know if you want more info on how I approached the 
process, but there is much already written about the topic 
available.MartinCalypso1970 CC 43Seattle

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Trimming the main

2015-08-11 Thread Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List

It applies to close hauled and reaches and running too (The vang is most 
needed / effective when the sheets are looser when reaching or running).. 
You should relax the vang on a reach or running but you still don't want 
to spill the wind on the upper 3rd by having the leach opened -- Unless 
you want to de-power. 

 The telltales are certainly important but don't always tell the whole 
story.  I have seen it where my leach was (A bit) too open / spilling wind 
yet the telltale was fine. 

When you're looking for max speed, the fact that there's no silver bullet 
is part of why it's so much fun. (At least for me) 

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five
Lake Lanier, GA


Message: 2
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 16:31:31 -0400
From: Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Trimming the main
Message-ID:
 cael16p8ts3zqmc7vgvs+uu7b4ykgvn0bngxxijixxojsxpg...@mail.gmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Dave,

That applies close-hauled.  The last foot or so at the leech.
Telltales on the leech are a better tool for fine tuning.

Joel
35/3
Regards



François Rivard
 4111 Northside Pkwy, Nw

Big Data Black Belt
 Atlanta, 30327-3015
IBM Sales  Distribution, Software Sales
 Usa
Mobile:
770-639-0429
 

e-mail:
jfriv...@us.ibm.com
 

 
 


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Electronics upgrade

2015-08-11 Thread Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List

My Zeus2 uses COG from the integrated GPS.   I don't have a magnetic 
compass feed but do I have TWD, VMG to Wind and Marker et all working  The 
VMG is calculated using heading info.   You have to know where to click 
the COG option in the options menu. 

You can use the GPS based SOG as well.  The reason it wants the paddle 
wheel boat speed info as well is to recognize and compensate for current 
and tides. 

You can PM me if you need more details on how it's done.  It was not super 
obvious but after clicking around for a few minutes I was able to make it 
work just fine. 

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five
Lake Lanier, GA 


Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2015 23:00:54 +
From: Jim Reinardy firewa...@reinardy.us
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com, cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Electronics upgrade
Message-ID: bay403-eas27154901d38c43b29663c35a1...@phx.gbl
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

When I put in my BG system I was surprised to figure out that not only 
did it need a knot meter for TWD, it wanted a compass transducer as well. 
The Zeus units won't use their internal COG data for the boat heading let 
alone speed.
One other note about iPads.  I recently chartered an older boat on 
vacation that only had an old 4 Garmin plotter below.  I used my IPad Air 
successfully from the cockpit, but found that with the internal GPS on, it 
was draining the battery even while plugged in.   Plus, plugging it in 
near the VHF created interference on the radio that made it unusable. This 
made me happy I have dedicated instruments!
Jim Reinardy CC 30-2 FirewaterMilwaukee, WI

Sent from Outlook


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

Your math is correct, and the high current through the glow plugs (and the fuel 
lift pump) accounts for the fact that the system voltage drops to 11.5-12.0v 
when the glow plug button is pressed.

 

But I just looked at the manual for my M35B and the glow plug button does not 
provide current for the glow plugs or the fuel pump. It provides current to 
close a solenoid that connects the glow plugs and the fuel pump to the battery. 
So the high current flow is ultimately from B+, and the current flow through 
the glow plug button only needs to be a faction of an amp. 

 

I don’t recall David saying that the engine did not start or the starter did 
not engage. Rather he indicated that the engine panel was wired differently 
than the manufacturer’s wiring diagram and the starting procedure was different 
than the procedure spelled out in the owner’s manual for the engine. 

 

If the starter engages when the button is pushed, then there is demonstrably 
enough voltage and resulting current flow to close the solenoid (which should 
take well under an amp). 

 

When the starter solenoid is closed, that creates an almost dead short on the 
high current side from the battery (via the big red battery cable connected to 
the starter) to ground through the starter coil, and there will be 175 to 250 
amps of current flowing through the starter. The resulting magnetic field 
creates enough torque and rotation speed to start the engine. On my boat, with 
a 4 cylinder M35B, the system voltage drops below 10.5 volts when the starter 
is engaged. As a matter of fact, if I restart the engine after the chart 
plotter has been turned on, the chart plotter will shut down due to the low 
voltage and will need to be restarted. (I swear every time that happens.)

 

It occurs to me that the fact that the system voltage drops to around 10v when 
the starter is turning could be a contributing reason that David only measured 
8v from the solenoid connection to ground when he pushed the starter button. If 
the starter does engage, then I stand by my diagnosis that there is nothing 
amiss with solenoid or starter, and that it would be best to restore the panel 
wiring to the way it left the factory.

 

BTW, Mainecruising is right is saying the panel is the choke point for current 
supply. All of the current to power the solenoid that connects the battery to 
the glow plugs and fuel pump, the starter solenoid, and the instruments comes 
through the key switch. Of course the panel and wiring is designed for the 
current flow expected. And, of course, the panel on a Yanmar is also the choke 
point for current to the idiot lights, alarms, and the starter solenoid as well.

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:27 PM
To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 

I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.   This 
equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders equals ~24amps.  That's a pretty good 
amount of current draw.  The way Maine Sailor makes it sound the panel is the 
choke point and all the current for the glo-plugs AND starter solenoid has to 
come from the panel and through various plug connectors and relatively small 
gauge wire.  Each adding it's own amount of additional resistance.  Not to 
mention poor connections, burnt contacts, and corrosion.  I'm not surprised at 
all to see the voltage dragged down enough to prevent the starter solenoid from 
being able to close.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD 

On Aug 11, 2015 11:41 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com  wrote:

In about 20 years of working on boats, mine and others’, the photo is the first 
Universal panel I have seen with an ammeter instead of a voltmeter on the panel.

 

Of course the glow plugs will draw down the starting voltage. When you power 
the glow plugs you are running ten amps or so across a couple thousand ohms of 
resistance to create heat. If your battery is OK, and of normal capacity, the 
voltage loss to the system will be negligible – maybe 0.1v or less. But that 
happens any time you put a load on the system. Doesn’t the voltage shown on 
your battery monitor drop from around 12.6 to 12.4 or 12.5 when you turn on the 
lights in the cabin? Same thing.

 

The only way that the glow plugs will cause a significant drop in the starting 
voltage is if you have a direct short in the wiring or a defective glow plug 
that is shorted to the engine block. Then you get a direct short from battery 
to ground through the engine panel wiring harness, and you let all the smoke 
out of the engine wiring harness. (Sorry, old electrical engineering joke 
coming back to haunt me.) Which is why there is a typically a 20 amp fuse in 
the power wire that supplies the engine panel.

 

Putting a solenoid into the

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

David:

 

Exactly what model and vintage of Universal diesel do you have in your boat?
In reading the information on the Catalina website that was referenced in an
earlier post, I note that they are generally referring to Universal M25XP
that apparently did not have a solenoid to power the glow plugs and the fuel
lift pump. On the M25,35,40B (at least according to the manuals I have that
are dated 1997) there is a solenoid. I'd like to reference the parts and
wiring material for your specific model of engine.

 

And let me understand the situation you have:

When connected to shore power, when you press the glow plug button and the
start button together, the engine cranks and starts? 

Is it safe to presume you have a battery charger connected whenever shore
power is on, that the float charge is around 13v, and that the battery
charger will switch on and deliver 30 or 40 amps of charging current if it
senses the battery voltage to be below 12v or so?

When starting on just the batteries, when you press the glow plug button
alone you hear the lift pump clicking, and the clicking slows down and stops
after a few seconds as the fuel line comes up to pressure?

When starting on just the batteries, when you press the start button alone
the engine starts?

When starting on just the batteries, when you press and hold the glow plug
button and then press the start button, you hear the fuel pump clicking and
slowing down, but the engine just grunts or clicks and the starter does not
turn to start the engine?

What do you have for a starting battery? And is the behavior the same when
you try starting with the battery switch set to all as it is when you try
starting with just the start battery connected?

 

Rick

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David
Knecht via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:35 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

 

This has been a great learning experience and I think I understand most of
what has been said.  One thing I don't get is why Rick thinks I should
change the wiring back to the original design.  With that setup, if you have
a problem in the circuit (as I apparently do) you would not be able to start
the engine.  The way mine is wired seems to have no obvious disadvantage if
all is OK, but gives you the ability to start the engine with a poor
connection somewhere.  If it were wired as original in the manual, I would
not be able to start at all.  I don't see a disadvantage to my panel's
wiring design.  Rick- are you suggesting that the start problem might be
caused by the wiring change?  I can't see that.  

 

One further clue if it helps, with the start button and glow plug button
pushed, you can hear the fuel pump slow way down and I hear a noise from the
solenoid but I don't know if that noise is the solenoid actually closing.


 

One clarification- I have no solenoid on the glow plug circuit either from
the manual circuit diagram or as far as I have found in the wiring, so I
presume that is just a difference in my engine and others.  

 

I should also note that when I first got the boat, I had problems starting
it at all unless plugged into shore power.  I thought it was the batteries
so got new ones, but that made no difference.  When I cleaned the ground
wire connections to the engine block, it started as I do it now. I can't
remember if I ever tried pushing both at the same time back then.  I was new
to glow plugs and had not found the manual yet and its description of the
start sequence, so I doubt it.

 

Tomorrow my Dad and I are going to take apart the harnesses and fuse holders
and clean all the contacts and see if that makes a difference.  Dave

 

On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com  wrote:





Your math is correct, and the high current through the glow plugs (and the
fuel lift pump) accounts for the fact that the system voltage drops to
11.5-12.0v when the glow plug button is pressed.

 

But I just looked at the manual for my M35B and the glow plug button does
not provide current for the glow plugs or the fuel pump. It provides current
to close a solenoid that connects the glow plugs and the fuel pump to the
battery. So the high current flow is ultimately from B+, and the current
flow through the glow plug button only needs to be a faction of an amp. 

 

I don't recall David saying that the engine did not start or the starter did
not engage. Rather he indicated that the engine panel was wired differently
than the manufacturer's wiring diagram and the starting procedure was
different than the procedure spelled out in the owner's manual for the
engine. 

 

If the starter engages when the button is pushed, then there is demonstrably
enough voltage and resulting current flow to close the solenoid (which
should take well under an amp). 

 

When

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring

This has been a great learning experience and I think I understand most of what 
has been said.  One thing I don’t get is why Rick thinks I should change the 
wiring back to the original design.  With that setup, if you have a problem in 
the circuit (as I apparently do) you would not be able to start the engine.  
The way mine is wired seems to have no obvious disadvantage if all is OK, but 
gives you the ability to start the engine with a poor connection somewhere.  If 
it were wired as original in the manual, I would not be able to start at all.  
I don’t see a disadvantage to my panel’s wiring design.  Rick- are you 
suggesting that the start problem might be caused by the wiring change?  I 
can’t see that.  

One further clue if it helps, with the start button and glow plug button 
pushed, you can hear the fuel pump slow way down and I hear a noise from the 
solenoid but I don’t know if that noise is the solenoid actually closing.

One clarification- I have no solenoid on the glow plug circuit either from the 
manual circuit diagram or as far as I have found in the wiring, so I presume 
that is just a difference in my engine and others.  

I should also note that when I first got the boat, I had problems starting it 
at all unless plugged into shore power.  I thought it was the batteries so got 
new ones, but that made no difference.  When I cleaned the ground wire 
connections to the engine block, it started as I do it now. I can’t remember if 
I ever tried pushing both at the same time back then.  I was new to glow plugs 
and had not found the manual yet and its description of the start sequence, so 
I doubt it.

Tomorrow my Dad and I are going to take apart the harnesses and fuse holders 
and clean all the contacts and see if that makes a difference.  Dave

On Aug 11, 2015, at 10:01 PM, Rick Brass via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

 Your math is correct, and the high current through the glow plugs (and the 
 fuel lift pump) accounts for the fact that the system voltage drops to 
 11.5-12.0v when the glow plug button is pressed.
  
 But I just looked at the manual for my M35B and the glow plug button does not 
 provide current for the glow plugs or the fuel pump. It provides current to 
 close a solenoid that connects the glow plugs and the fuel pump to the 
 battery. So the high current flow is ultimately from B+, and the current flow 
 through the glow plug button only needs to be a faction of an amp.
  
 I don’t recall David saying that the engine did not start or the starter did 
 not engage. Rather he indicated that the engine panel was wired differently 
 than the manufacturer’s wiring diagram and the starting procedure was 
 different than the procedure spelled out in the owner’s manual for the engine.
  
 If the starter engages when the button is pushed, then there is demonstrably 
 enough voltage and resulting current flow to close the solenoid (which should 
 take well under an amp).
  
 When the starter solenoid is closed, that creates an almost dead short on the 
 high current side from the battery (via the big red battery cable connected 
 to the starter) to ground through the starter coil, and there will be 175 to 
 250 amps of current flowing through the starter. The resulting magnetic field 
 creates enough torque and rotation speed to start the engine. On my boat, 
 with a 4 cylinder M35B, the system voltage drops below 10.5 volts when the 
 starter is engaged. As a matter of fact, if I restart the engine after the 
 chart plotter has been turned on, the chart plotter will shut down due to the 
 low voltage and will need to be restarted. (I swear every time that happens.)
  
 It occurs to me that the fact that the system voltage drops to around 10v 
 when the starter is turning could be a contributing reason that David only 
 measured 8v from the solenoid connection to ground when he pushed the starter 
 button. If the starter does engage, then I stand by my diagnosis that there 
 is nothing amiss with solenoid or starter, and that it would be best to 
 restore the panel wiring to the way it left the factory.
  
 BTW, Mainecruising is right is saying the panel is the choke point for 
 current supply. All of the current to power the solenoid that connects the 
 battery to the glow plugs and fuel pump, the starter solenoid, and the 
 instruments comes through the key switch. Of course the panel and wiring is 
 designed for the current flow expected. And, of course, the panel on a Yanmar 
 is also the choke point for current to the idiot lights, alarms, and the 
 starter solenoid as well.
  
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
 Muckley via CnC-List
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 12:27 PM
 To: CC List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring
  
 I checked the specs of the universal glo-plugs and they average 2 ohms.   
 This equates to ~6amps times 4 cylinders

Re: Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

How many hours do you have on the engine? The sort of runaway you describe
does happen rarely, but the piston rings have to be worn to near the end of
their life (say 8000 to 1 hours) or you need to almost completely fill
the block with oil to the point oil leaks out the dipstick tube.

 

And never put a rag in the air intake. The suction of the diesel will just
suck the rag into the intake manifold and valves (which is really no biggie
since you will need to rebuild the head anyway when you rebuild the block
after you get it to shut down from a runaway condition). Whatever you do,
don't put your hand over the air intake for pretty obvious reasons. It is
best to use a flat metal object like a pie plate or a saucepan from the
galley to cover the air intake. No airflow + no compression = engine shuts
off.

 

Rick Brass

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 11:50 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard jfriv...@us.ibm.com
Subject: Stus-List 3GM30F Oil Pressure warning

 

Hi Rob, 

I was told by more than 1 mechanic to be very careful about never
over-filling the oil in my 3GM30F..  In fact they recommended keeping it
between the middle and about 2/3 full level on the stick.  The reason for
that is to avoid a run-away engine condition..  

Apparently the excess oil can get splashed by the piston skirts and somehow
make its way into the combustion chamber  / burn away without throttle
control.  I was even advised to keep a rag handy near the engine to stuff it
into the air intake and stop it should all else fail.. 

I am not speaking form experience, but I was told it happens more often than
one might think.  

Best regards, 

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ Take Five 
Lake Lanier, GA

   Mike:

  Along the line(s) of what Rick was saying about oil levels, I'll add 
  this.   My Yanmar 2GMF manual says to put 2 litres of oil in the engine 
  after an oil and filter change.the 2 litres will bring the oil level

  on the dipstick to the full mark only if I use a Yanmar oil filter, 
  which is quite small.

  I use a NAPA 1064 Gold Seal oil filter which is larger than the Yanmar 
  is and obviously size and 'volume' of oil it can handle. Therefore, I 
  need more than 2 litres when I use the NAPA filter to get the dipstick 
  to read fullHow much more exactly?..I haven't measured it 
  exactly.I just add the extra oil beyond the 2 litres until the 
  dipstick reads full.more often than not since I am not exactly 
  measuring the extra oil beyond the 2 litres, the dipstick reads slightly

  above the full mark.  After reading all these comments about oil levels 
  in the marine engines, I don't think I will fret about the oil level a 
  little above the full mark.

  Just something else to think about.

  Are you back at the club?

  Rob Abbott
  AZURA
  CC 32 -84
  Halifax, N.S.

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Trimming the main

All 4 batters are full and adjustable.I am certainly going to have to play 
more with boom position.  I have rarely put the boom right on centerline as it 
just hasn’t felt fast, but I will do some actual comparative measurements. 
Probably comes from my dinghy experience where it is never on centerline.  
Usually I have it a few inches (2-6”) off center at the rear in everything but 
heavy air.  Dave

On Aug 11, 2015, at 6:20 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

 David,
 
 Is your main a 3 + 1?  That is, top full batten and 3 partials below.  If so, 
 you should focus on the second, or top partial batten not the top full 
 batten. 
 
 Upwind, boom on centerline, second batten guideline:
 
 Light breeze - slightly hooked to weather. 
 
 Moderate breeze - parallel to boom. 
 
 Heavy breeze - twisted off to leeward to reduce heel. 
 
 Dennis C.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 11, 2015, at 3:23 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 I have read in several places that one guideline for mainsail trim is to 
 make the upper batten parallel with the boom.  My upper batten is full 
 length with adjustable tension, so it is curved.  In this situation, what 
 part of the batten would theoretically want to be parallel with the boom?  
 Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 
 ___
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
 of page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 

Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut   
91 N. Eagleville Rd.
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Universal Engine panel wiring