Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 16:04 , Arnaud AMELINA  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 à 22:38, Ronald F. Guilmette  > a écrit :
> In message  >, 
> Barry Macharia mailto:barry.macha...@me.com>> wrote:
> 
> >This is loud and clear
> >
> >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear 
> >too.
> 
> No, actually, it isn't.  And that's the problem.
> 
> I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand
> it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one:  He successfully met all of the
> requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from
> AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact
> assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which
> were four different dates in 2013 and 2014.  He further contends that
> there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or
> 
> Cette assertion n'est pas correct, les textes d'Afrinic sont assez clair et 
> étaient basés sur la bonne foi des membres à respecter les principes de base, 
> de la bonne pratique et non sur certains capitalistes véreux qui ont des 
> agendas cachés. C'est pourquoi certaines conditions qui normalement étaient 
> d'office compris par les parties, n'ont pas à être transcrit dans le RSA au 
> risque en le faisant d'avoir un document aussi gros qu'une bible. Ce membre a 
> profiter de certaines familles (chemin pas très correct) pour obtenir les 
> ressources qu'il a avec l'aide de certains membres corrompu du staff et du 
> Board qui se connaissent très bien. 
> 
> Cela ne change pas que la procédure d'obtention n'a pas été propre, clean. 

It is your assertion that is not correct. You cannot make policy up out of thin 
air
when a contract and written governing documents exist and contain contrary
statements.

To do so is a path to anarchy, not a responsible way to run a major internet
registry.

> 
> 
> within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies
> which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021.
> 
> As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or
> effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon
> AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned
> number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical
> region.
> 
> Ceci aussi n'est pas correct, c'est faire preuve de mauvaise foi que 
> d'interpréter les textes d'Afrinic dans ce sens. Il faut tenir compte de 
> l'historique de l'attribution des ressources. Elles sont belles et bien 
> régionales et non globales. Ceci est incontestable même par toi Ronald. Donc 
> ce n'est parce qu'il a mal interprété les textes d'Afrinic qu'il a raison. 

Here, again, it is you, Arnaud who are not correct. Even the history of address
distribution started out being globally managed from a single point. Eventually,
regional registries were created, first in Europe and then in Asia for the
purposes of linguistic and time-zone convenience and little else. Other than
LACNIC, I am not aware of a single RIR which has any in-region use requirement
codified in its governing documents. Even in the case of LACNIC, it is permitted
to use up to 49.999% of your address space out of region.

> 
> I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is
> right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement.
> 
> Non personne ne fait de jugement mais chacun présente son opinion 
> personnelle. On peut se tromper mais les arguments historiques sont 
> indélébiles, on en peut pas ne pas en tenir compte. 

Indeed. There is a long history in every RIR of out-of-region use of addresses 
by multi-regional companies.

I agree that this history should not be ignored. Why do you insist on trying to 
do so?

> He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that
> "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region".  And if that is
> true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and
> expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not
> the law.  
> 
> C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'échappe à se point sauf si ta 
> mémoire est brusquement devenue sélective. Les registres sont tous appelés 
> Registre Régionaux, par conséquence sémantique, toutes leurs activités sont 
> régionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont réservées à leur 
> région, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre région, il faut 
> une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifiée. Ce qui n'est pas le 
> cas d'Afrinic. Par conséquent ces ressources doivent être utilisées 
> uniquement dans sa région sauf conditions exceptionnelles accordées par 
> d'Afrinic. 
> 
> Nous avons vu comment des gens ont voulu faire passer une telle politique par 
> des voies controversées, mais qui a échoué heureusement. 
> 

Yes, 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> The objectives of AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 
>   and the reason AFRINIC become the RIR 
> for AFRICA.
> 
> 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of 
> Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, 
> including but not limited to the following objects:
> to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for 
> the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and 
> to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;
> to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet 
> community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent 
> communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;
> to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the 
> African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of 
> Internet infrastructures;   

Corporate objectives are not policy binding upon the company’s customers. They 
are a broad-strokes list of corporate goals.

Nonetheless, even if they were, Cloud innovation meets a sufficient fraction of 
3.4(i) to qualify. The Larus Foundation Fellowship Program is a significant 
effort towards 3.4(ii). You may not agree, but IMHO, Cloud Innovation does 
engage in 3.4(iii) through both its engagement with the community, it’s strict 
adherence to AFRINIC policies as written, and its internal policies requiring 
its address services customers to do the same.

> As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or
> effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon
> AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned
> number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical
> region.
> 
> AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3 
> 
> 
> 3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of 
> Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, 
> including but not limited to the following objects:
> to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for 
> the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and 
> to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;
> to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet 
> community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent 
> communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;
> to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the 
> African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of 
> Internet infrastructures;   
Once again, these criteria are a statement of corporate goals, not binding 
policy on resource members. Nonetheless, one does not need to use 100% or even 
most of ones resources within the region to fulfill all of those criteria and, 
IMHO, Cloud Innovation actually does meet each and every one of those criteria 
either directly and/or indirectly through actions of related parties.

> I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is
> right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement.
> 
> The courts shall decide.

Indeed. So far, they seem to have decided that Larus has a good chance of 
succeeding.
 
> He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that
> "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region".  And if that is
> true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and
> expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not
> the law.  
> 
> The expectations  
> https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/new-rirs-criteria-2012-02-25-en 
> 
These are not expectations. They are the governing policies by which ICANN/PTI 
(acting as the IANA under the IANA functions contract) are able to accredit new 
RIRs. They are a set of requirements that ICANN must certify the RIR as meeting 
at the time of accreditation. Nothing more.

> IANA did not allocate to AFRINIC so that AFRINIC allocates to Heng Lu who 
> would then go about leasing the resources in other regions. 

It really isn’t relevant what IANA thinks of any RIRs use or distribution of 
their address space. IANA’s role is limited to accreditation of new RIRs and 
the issuance of additional blocks from its free pool to RIRs as their free 
pools approach empty. For IPv4 this process is basically over, though there are 
still occasional quarterly trickles of returned space and other minimal chunks.

> Why didn't Lu Heng go to APNIC, RIPE or ARIN. ?  If his intention was to sell 
> IPv4 addresses in those regions for profit.

To the best of my knowledge, other than a divestiture of addresses in the RIPE 
region 8+ years ago, neither 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:30 , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the 
> other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).
> 
> The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it 
> had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
> "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published 
> now.

We have already agreed that the original justification is no longer relevant 
and that, like any ISP in business for more than 8 years, things have changed 
and we have adapted.

> So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance 
> on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points.

Because it is no longer relevant.

> Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in 
> the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
> the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the 
> results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were 
> incorporated during all the process: transparency.

In reality, even if a curative submission is required (if the last filed 
justification to which I do not have access, TBH), I would suggest they simply 
modify their justification to the following:

We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own 
infrastructure and on our customers’ networks.

This is a justification which meets the letter of the law of the policy and 
which does not preclude leasing.

Owen



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 27/07/2021 19:27, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
>>> our customers in Africa" ?
>> 
>> I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa.
>> How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address
>> space in question?
> 
> I really hope we can agree that AfriNIC did never outright "sell" the IP
> address space. But gave the right to use subject to justification(s).

Actually, neither.

> If not, we seem to live in different universes.

Perhaps, but perhaps not.

AFRINIC registered blocks of numbers to Cloud Innovation for the sake of 
guaranteeing
uniqueness amongst cooperating entities. AFRINIC has no authority or ability to 
issue
any sort of “right to use” as there is no legal basis for forcing a provider to 
make their
router configuration choices based on the contents of any particular RIR 
database.

Now it would be extremely disruptive to have multiple alternate registries and 
generally
because of this high cost and low return, the vast majority of providers follow 
along with
the RIR system and the overall effect amounts to a right to use, but it’s not 
an actula
legal right to use. In fact, having an address block issued by an RIR doesn’t 
guarantee
you that any service provider will accept your prefixes, so really, at best, 
it’s an ability
to use more than a “right” to use.

If we can agree on that, then perhaps we are not in different universes.

Yes, the registration is subject to certain justifications and conditions as 
specified in
the governing documents (RSA, bylaws, CPM). Where we disagree (as near as I
can tell) is mostly on what the governing documents actually say.

> 
>>> Did CI?
>> 
>> 7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the
>> changing business
>> environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other
>> continents. CI
>> submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred.
> 
> I am not sure whether AfriNIC expanded it's acceptance for the use of IP
> resources by CI to the same extent.

AFRINIC is required by its governing documents to accept any expansion
or change of use that does not violate the policies spelled out in the CPM
and/or any other restrictions in the bylaws or RSA. For AFRINIC to arbitrarily
withhold such acceptance without a basis in community and/or. member
supported policy/bylaws would set an extremely dangerous precedent allowing
the staff to essentially reward their friends and punish those they don’t like
on an entirely arbitrary basis.It is my understanding that a fundamental
tenet of the RIR system is that RIRs are supposed to act in a fair and
impartial manner towards all resource holders. I do not see how that can
be possible if staff is allowed the latitude to make arbitrary decisions 
rejecting
things which are not prohibited by policy.

>>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>> 
>> Where is your basis in policy for this?
> 
> In the justification from CI for the IP address space. which I haven't
> seen. Want to share?

I don’t have permission to share and TBH, I haven’t seen it, either.
However, if I had written it, it would read something like:

We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our
own infrastructure and on our customers networks.

So, let’s assume that’s what it says and see how you can provide a
basis (chapter and verse, please) for either rejecting that justification or for
claiming that said justification does not encompass leasing.

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

I provided a factual statement about an omission in a message from the CEO.

How, exactly, is that dragging the CEO in my nonsense?

Owen


> On Jul 27, 2021, at 15:15 , Mirriam  wrote:
> 
> Owen, 
> 
> Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing.
> 
>  Mirriam.
> 
>  
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss
>  wrote:
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 
> 

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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 13:28 , Marcus K. G. Adomey  wrote:
> 
> Owen,
> 
> Why are you so desperate?
> 
Desparate?

> You went with an ex parte request and AFRINIC also went ex parte request to 
> which the Judge declined to grant and instead asked CI, your principals, to 
> prove why to not grant AFRINIC request.
> 

I think you have it wrong here.

First, I didn’t go with any request. Cloud Innovation and its lawyers went 
before the court with
an ex parte request.

The judge did NOT decline to grant our request… They declined to grant 
AFRINIC’s request and asked AFRINIC
to come and show why their request should be granted.

Indeed, it is this detail where Eddy left out the fact that the judge declined 
AFRINIC’s request that I was calling attention
to in the post you are responding to. Despite this fact, you still managed to 
get it wrong, so obviously, there is confusion
in the community based on Eddy’s failure to disclose the entire truth of the 
matter to the community. The proof is plain
in your statements above.

> Is this not normal process?
> 

It is fairly normal, yes.

> Can we let the court case play out ?
> 

Sure… It will. I’m not doing anything to interfere with it. I merely provided 
some details which the AFRINIC CEO chose not
to share with the community and a copy of the actual court order to back up 
those details.

> Your obsession to deal with the "vaporware" is known and like you were proven 
> wrong that AFRINIC wasn't one, we are yet to see the result of this new 
> attempt.

You continue to focus on this. At the time I made the statement, AFRINIC was 
still vaporware. Despite your claims, I am glad to see that AFRINIC came to
fruition and my true desire here is to see it become a reputable RIR operating 
within the mandate of its governing documents in an open and transparent
manner with an accountable board and staff where the community and members can 
once again trust in those governing bodies.

> Please leave AFRICA on its own...

And once again, you try to encourage me to leave the discussions. I would think 
by now that you would have learned this is not going to happen.

Owen

> 
> 
> 
> Marcus
> From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
> Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:01:35 PM
> To: Eddy Kayihura 
> Cc: Community Discuss 
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)
>  
> You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when 
> setting the hearing for August 4.
> 
> For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge’s order here:
> 
> 
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura > <mailto:e...@afrinic.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages 
>> translations in full.
>> 
>> Apologies for the double posting.
>> --
>> 
>> Kind Regards
>> 
>> Eddy Kayihura M.
>> Chief Executive Officer
>> AFRINIC Ltd.
>> 
>> t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  https://www.afrinic.net 
>> <https://www.afrinic.net/>  |  youtube.com/afrinicmedia 
>> <http://youtube.com/afrinicmedia>
>> ___
>> 
>> Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in 
>> Africa”
>> Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient 
>> services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”
>> Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)
>> 
>> 
>> ***
>> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They 
>> may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended 
>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
>> If you have received this email by error please notify the sender 
>> immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also 
>> notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in 
>> relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the 
>> message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full 
>> responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and 
>> other defects.
>> 
>> ***
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: Eddy Kayihura mailto:e...@afrinic.net>>
>>> Subject: AFRINIC's Update
>>> D

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 13:27 , Barry Macharia  wrote:
> 
> This is loud and clear
> 
> Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear 
> too.

Please provide a reference for this statement in any of the governing documents 
that covers more than just the
addresses issued after soft landing exhaustion phase 1 began.

> 
> The below Cloud Innovation non-legacy resources were allocated so that they 
> are used as per bylaws to enable African Internet development. 
> 
> 156.224.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 
> 154.192.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 
> 45.192.0.0/12  - 1+ Million IP Addresses 
> 154.80.0.0/12  - 1+ Million IP Addresses 

If you are claiming that the bylaws state that all addresses must be used to 
enable African Internet Development,
you will need to back that up with a reference to the specific section(s) of 
the bylaws where this is stated.

Otherwise, I will presume that your statement applies to the general 
requirement in the bylaws that the member
must provide services within the region.

> The defenders of CIL , do you use the above resources in africa??? 

Yes, some of those addresses are deployed and providing services in Africa.

> If so show us the evidence you do.

Among others:
156.227.33.0/24 thru 156.227.65.0/24 (Cloud Innovation Infrastructure 
ZA)
156.227.66.0/24 thru 156.227.127.0/24 (China Telecom Sout Africa ZA)

This just a quick sample from scrolling through the one whois query against one 
prefix.

I’m not going to spend hours tracking down a bunch fo data that you can easily 
get from
WHOIS yourself. I’ve proven that we have operations in Africa and that we have 
customers
using our address space in Africa with the above two groups of prefixes.

Now, can you provide proof of any of your claims above?

> Trying to bottleneck the organisation will not happen under this communities 
> and majority of resource members watch.

Bottleneck? Not sure of your meaning here. We are merely seeking to hold 
AFRINIC to its own rules as written and
to continue our operations within those rules as they have been for several 
years.

Owen



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:00 , Arnaud AMELINA  wrote:
> 
> @Noah +1
> 
> Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 à 18:41, Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> 
> a écrit :
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:
> 
>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> 
> Where is your basis in policy for this?
> 
> Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC 
> members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA.
> 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/KE 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/NG 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/MU 
You’re not answering the question I asked…

What is your basis in policy for claiming that a VM is OK, but leasing 
addresses without providing connectivity
services is not?

It’s simply not prohibited anywhere in policy.

> Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR Cloud Innovation Limited with 
> offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool.
> 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/SC 

And?

> 
> You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to 
> defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his subsidiary 
> HongKong company Larus  https://www.larus.net/  
> 
> FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the 
> purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." 

OK, so AFRINIC has repeatedly violated their own policies. Doesn’t change the 
question and doesn’t change the reality.

> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html
>  
> 

Also, nobody in their right mind would submit an application with that kind of 
specificity. The following justification is perfectly
adequate and conforms to policy:

We will use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and on 
our customers’ networks.


> 
> Cheers,
> Noah
> PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both 
> linked to the AFRINIC RSA.

That’s correct. Now show me where, in any of those documents, connectivity is 
required to be provided in conjunction
with address resource services. If you can’t do that, then you’ve made my case.

FWIW, I’m not saying that I like this situation, but I am saying that’s what 
the policies actually say. If the AFRINIC community
truly sought to prohibit out of region use or leasing, then they could easily 
propose and get consensus for policies that would
do so. There was an attempt at prohibiting out of region utilization several 
years ago. It met with substantial resistance for a
variety of reasons from virtually every segment of the community. It was 
eventually withdrawn by the authors without gaining
consensus. Nobody has ever even proposed a possible policy to prohibit 
providing address services without providing
connectivity services. Possibly because most people recognize that such a 
policy wouldn’t have much of a useful effect.

There’s a very simple fig leaf that someone could use in case such a policy 
were passed:

Announce the aggregates (least specific prefixes) from a central site 
in the region.
Reannounce the more specifics upon customer request, but heavily 
prepended.
Have some minimal connection to each customer so that packets delivered 
to the aggregate
can be delivered to the customer if necessary.
Customers maintain their other connections and have LOAs to multi home 
and announce their less specific
prefixes..

Voila, now it’s not technically leasing without connectivity, but it might as 
well be. The less specifics are very unlikely
to pull in any significant traffic as they’ll be overridden by the more 
specifics advertised elsewhere (and/or the longer
AS Path for the more specifics). Obviously, the customers will hot potato their 
outbound traffic to their closest highest
bandwidth egress points rather than through the narrow pipe back to the 
“address service provider”.

Currently policy doesn’t require this pretense. If it does, I suspect it would 
get implemented as needed to comply.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Arnaud AMELINA  wrote:

>C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'�chappe � se point sauf si ta
>m�moire est brusquement devenue s�lective. Les registres sont tous appel�s
>Registre R�gionaux, par cons�quence s�mantique, toutes leurs activit�s sont
>r�gionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont r�serv�es � leur
>r�gion, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre r�gion, il faut
>une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifi�e. Ce qui n'est pas le
>cas d'Afrinic. Par cons�quent ces ressources doivent �tre utilis�es uniquement
>dans sa r�gion sauf conditions exceptionnelles accord�es par d'Afrinic.�

I am forced to agree that intuitively, the Regional Internet Registries
were indeed created with the idea in mind that each one would serve to
help develop and administer Internet number resources within their
respective regions.  But our shared intutive notions are not the same
as what is written down, and when things end up in court, as a general
rule only those things that are written down actually matter.

I have some experience with courts and with litigation, so I kind of know
how this works.

Believe me, there are many clever lawyers on this planet who would argue,
perhaps even successfully,  that the Ten Commandments of Moses do not
apply to their specific client because there was never a written rule
requiring all the people to be able to read Hebrew.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Sarah T. Kiden]

I agree. Whatever conclusions we come to on the list will not be relevant
in the court room on 4 Aug. So, I suggest that we exercise some patience as
we wait for an update.

Thanks,

Sarah

On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 at 00:04, robert ford via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

> I couldn’t agree more.
>
> Does he get it though? I bet he does.
>
> Ford
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 28 Jul 2021, at 00:19, Mirriam via Community-Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
> Owen,
>
>
> Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing.
>
>  Mirriam.
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss
>  wrote:
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 17:32 Lili Au,  wrote:

> Thank you Noah,
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm afraid that I can not share the LOA since it will give them some
> clues. But I can say --
>

You can share through the available Whistle blowing mechanism provided by
AFRINIC via the link below.

https://www.afrinic.net/whistleblowing?lang=en

It's worth noting that some LOAs signed by Mr.Paul Lam of LARUS have been
shared by Heng Lu himself in the past. So this LOA's from Larus we have
seen a couple.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Arnaud AMELINA]

Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 à 22:38, Ronald F. Guilmette 
a écrit :

> In message ,
> Barry Macharia  wrote:
>
> >This is loud and clear
> >
> >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and
> clear too.
>
> No, actually, it isn't.  And that's the problem.
>
> I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand
> it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one:  He successfully met all of the
> requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from
> AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact
> assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which
> were four different dates in 2013 and 2014.  He further contends that
> there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or
>

Cette assertion n'est pas correct, les textes d'Afrinic sont assez clair et
étaient basés sur la bonne foi des membres à respecter les principes de
base, de la bonne pratique et non sur certains capitalistes véreux qui ont
des agendas cachés. C'est pourquoi certaines conditions qui normalement
étaient d'office compris par les parties, n'ont pas à être transcrit dans
le RSA au risque en le faisant d'avoir un document aussi gros qu'une bible.
Ce membre a profiter de certaines familles (chemin pas très correct) pour
obtenir les ressources qu'il a avec l'aide de certains membres corrompu du
staff et du Board qui se connaissent très bien.

Cela ne change pas que la procédure d'obtention n'a pas été propre, clean.


within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies
> which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021.
>
> As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or
> effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon
> AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned
> number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical
> region.
>

Ceci aussi n'est pas correct, c'est faire preuve de mauvaise foi que
d'interpréter les textes d'Afrinic dans ce sens. Il faut tenir compte de
l'historique de l'attribution des ressources. Elles sont belles et bien
régionales et non globales. Ceci est incontestable même par toi Ronald.
Donc ce n'est parce qu'il a mal interprété les textes d'Afrinic qu'il a
raison.

>
> I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is
> right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement.
>

Non personne ne fait de jugement mais chacun présente son opinion
personnelle. On peut se tromper mais les arguments historiques sont
indélébiles, on en peut pas ne pas en tenir compte.

He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that
> "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region".  And if that is
> true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and
> expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not
> the law.


C'est surprenant que l'aspect historique t'échappe à se point sauf si ta
mémoire est brusquement devenue sélective. Les registres sont tous appelés
Registre Régionaux, par conséquence sémantique, toutes leurs activités sont
régionales et les ressources dont elles ont la charge sont réservées à leur
région, pour que ces ressources se retrouvent dans une autre région, il
faut une politique de transfert inter-region duement ratifiée. Ce qui n'est
pas le cas d'Afrinic. Par conséquent ces ressources doivent être utilisées
uniquement dans sa région sauf conditions exceptionnelles accordées par
d'Afrinic.

Nous avons vu comment des gens ont voulu faire passer une telle politique
par des voies controversées, mais qui a échoué heureusement.

The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts
> are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the
> wrong.  The speculations and fervent beliefs of the rest of us, as
> expressed on this mailing list, will, in the end, be rather entirely
> irrelevant.
>

Merci Ronald de ne pas glisser dans tes informations souvent plausibles,
des informations erronées ou non fondées.

>
>
>
>
> Regards,
> rfg
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[robert ford via Community-Discuss]

I couldn’t agree more. 

Does he get it though? I bet he does. 

Ford

Sent from my iPhone

> On 28 Jul 2021, at 00:19, Mirriam via Community-Discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> Owen, 
> 
> Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing.
> 
>  Mirriam.
> 
>  
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss
>  wrote:
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2021 at 1:40 AM Ronald F. Guilmette 
wrote:

> In message ,
> Barry Macharia  wrote:
>
> >This is loud and clear
> >
> >Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and
> clear too.
>
> No, actually, it isn't.  And that's the problem.
>
> I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand
> it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one:  He successfully met all of the
> requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from
> AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact
> assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which
> were four different dates in 2013 and 2014.


And here is what Lu Heng stated in 2014 about the said allocations.

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html



> He further contends that
> there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or
> within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies
> which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021.
>

The objectives of AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3  and
the reason AFRINIC become the RIR for AFRICA.

3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of
Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or
activity, including but not limited to the following objects:

   1. *to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet
   resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system
   network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the
   Internet in the African region;*
   2. *to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet
   community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent
   communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;*
   3. *to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout
   the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of
   Internet infrastructures; *



>
> As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or
> effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon
> AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned
> number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical
> region.
>

AFRINIC below https://www.afrinic.net/bylaws#b20-3

3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of
Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or
activity, including but not limited to the following objects:

   1. *to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet
   resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system
   network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the
   Internet in the African region;*
   2. *to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet
   community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent
   communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;*
   3. *to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout
   the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of
   Internet infrastructures; *





>
> I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is
> right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement.
>

The courts shall decide.


> He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that
> "Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region".  And if that is
> true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and
> expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not
> the law.


The expectations
https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/new-rirs-criteria-2012-02-25-en

IANA did not allocate to AFRINIC so that AFRINIC allocates to Heng Lu who
would then go about leasing the resources in other regions.

Why didn't Lu Heng go to APNIC, RIPE or ARIN. ?  If his intention was to
sell IPv4 addresses in those regions for profit.

The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts
> are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the
> wrong.


The RSA  https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/services/afrinic-rsa-en-201801.pdf

4. Conditions of service
(a) Where a member, receiving service under an existing agreement applies
for a change or a variation of the
type of such service which AFRINIC has been supplying to it, evaluation of
such a “change request” will be effected in
terms of the provisions of clause (2) of the present agreement.
(b) Cooperation:


*(i) An applicant receiving service under an agreement is at all times
bound to provide to AFRINIC suchinformation, assistance and cooperation as
may be reasonably required by the latter in the provisionof the service.*

*(ii) Such request for information may also be made where AFRINIC is
investigating (reviewing) theapplicant’s utilisation of the number
resources already 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message , 
Barry Macharia  wrote:

>This is loud and clear
>
>Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too.

No, actually, it isn't.  And that's the problem.

I am not here to defend Lu Heng or Cloud Innovantion, but as I understand
it, Lu Heng's claim is a simple one:  He successfully met all of the
requirements, as necessary, in order to request and to receive, from
AFRINIC, all of the 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses that AFRINIC did in fact
assign to him, as of the dates when he received these allocations, which
were four different dates in 2013 and 2014.  He further contends that
there is no legal basis, either within the RSA that he signed, or
within the AFRINIC Bylaws, or within any community-apporved policies
which would allow AFRINIC to now withdraw those allocations in 2021.

As part of these over-arching contentions, Lu Heng has also actually or
effectively asserted that there are little or no binding requirements upon
AFRINIC resource members that they must operate or deploy their assigned
number resources in a manner which preferences any particular geographical
region.

I personally do not have sufficent information to judge whether he is
right or wrong about any of these contentions and so I reserve judgement.
He may perhaps be right, in which case it is NOT true to say that
"Afrinic resource are meant for {the} African region".  And if that is
true, it may defy and fly in the face of many people's beliefs and
expectations, including mine, but beliefs and expectations are not
the law.  The law is the law, contracts are in writing, and the courts
are now tasked with figuring out who is in the right and who is in the
wrong.  The speculations and fervent beliefs of the rest of us, as
expressed on this mailing list, will, in the end, be rather entirely
irrelevant.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Mirriam via Community-Discuss]

Owen, 
Stop dragging the CEO in your nonsense and await the court hearing.
 Mirriam.
 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:12 PM, Owen DeLong via 
Community-Discuss wrote:   
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <8430721b-7fcd-e6ec-8b20-b0af673ae...@geier.ne.tz>, 
Frank Habicht  wrote:

>Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.

Friends, I like to think that many, perhaps most, perhaps all of you
either know me or at least know of me.  I am a skeptic.  Not just
about some things, but about everything.  And I also like to think
that my skepticism has been of some value, not just to myself but
also to this community.

As was already noted by Frank, none of us have any legal right to see
any of Cloud Innovation's internal documents, regardless of whether they
are from seven days ago or seven years ago, and Cloud Innovation is most
certainly under no legal obligation, nor even any moral or ethical
obligation to provide any such internal documents to any of us.

That having been said, my own curiosity knows no bounds, and I personally
would be interested to see how a request for some 6,291,456 IPv4 addresses
would have been justified, back in 2013 & 2014.  At the very least, I am
sure that would be educational.

And just so that nobody thinks that I am taking sides here, let me also
say that there are, as of now, on the order of several dozen answers to
questions and pieces of information that I would also like to obtain from
AFRINIC, some of which I have been requesting from AFRINIC for literally
years already, but that I am also not privy to at the present time.  (To
put in bluntly, AFRINIC is and has been stonewalling me about a LOT of
things over a long period of time.)

In short, from where I am sitting, *everybody* is hiding something, and
I don't believe that any of this information hiding is being done for my
benefit -or- for the benefit of the AFRINIC community.  The folks doing
the hiding are looking after their own interests.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <5755669e-b1af-43f1-ad6f-1d4f13c59...@afrinic.net>, 
AFRINIC Communication  wrote:

>We appreciate your patience.

What patience?


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Marcus K. G. Adomey]

Owen,

Why are you so desperate?

You went with an ex parte request and AFRINIC also went ex parte request to 
which the Judge declined to grant and instead asked CI, your principals, to 
prove why to not grant AFRINIC request.

Is this not normal process?

Can we let the court case play out ?

Your obsession to deal with the "vaporware" is known and like you were proven 
wrong that AFRINIC wasn't one, we are yet to see the result of this new attempt.

Please leave AFRICA on its own...



Marcus

From: Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 2021 4:01:35 PM
To: Eddy Kayihura 
Cc: Community Discuss 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when 
setting the hearing for August 4.

For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge’s order here:



Owen


On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura 
mailto:e...@afrinic.net>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages 
translations in full.

Apologies for the double posting.
--

Kind Regards

Eddy Kayihura M.
Chief Executive Officer
AFRINIC Ltd.

t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  
https://www.afrinic.net<https://www.afrinic.net/>  |  
youtube.com/afrinicmedia<http://youtube.com/afrinicmedia>
___

Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in 
Africa”
Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient 
services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”
Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)


***
This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They 
may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely 
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have 
received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and 
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remedial action about viruses and other defects.

***



Begin forwarded message:

From: Eddy Kayihura mailto:e...@afrinic.net>>
Subject: AFRINIC's Update
Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4
To: AfriNIC Discuss 
mailto:members-disc...@afrinic.net>>

Dear Members,

I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial 
Accounts and the options we are considering.

Please watch the video here 
(https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)

Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development 
in the matter regarding AFRINIC’s application lodged yesterday seeking a 
variation of the freezing order.

The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 
2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks,  to communicate 
their stand in the matter.

We shall update you accordingly.

Eddy Kayihura

Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC

c...@afrinic.net<mailto:c...@afrinic.net>


…….

Chers membres,

Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise à jour sur le gel des comptes 
financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons.

Veuillez regarder la vidéo ici 
(https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)
 - cliquez sur la page en français pour texte en français. La vidéo 
malheureusement n’est disponible qu’en anglais.

En outre, après l'enregistrement de la vidéo, il y a eu un dernier 
développement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC déposée hier pour 
une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes.

La dernière mise à jour est que le Learned Judge a fixé l'affaire au 4 août 
2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur 
position dans l'affaire.

Nous vous tiendrons informés en conséquence.

Eddy Kayihura

Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC

c...@afrinic.net<mailto:c...@afrinic.net>



.
أعضاء العزيز،

أود أن أطلعكم على آخر المستجدات بشأن تجميد حسابات AFRINIC المالية والخيارات 
التي ندرسها.

يرجى مشاهدة الفيديو هنا 
(https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)

علاوة على ذلك ، بعد تسجيل الفيديو ، كان هناك تطور جديد في الموضوع فيما يتعلق 
بطلب Afrinic الذي تم تقديمه أمس للحصول على تغيير في أمر التجميد.

آخر تحديث هو أن القاضي المستعلم قد أصلح الأمر في 4 أغسطس 2021 للأطراف الأخرى 
للتعبير عن موقفهم في هذا ال

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Barry Macharia via Community-Discuss]

This is loud and clear

Afrinic resource are meant for African region, is that also loud and clear too.

The below Cloud Innovation non-legacy resources were allocated so that they are 
used as per bylaws to enable African Internet development. 

156.224.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 
154.192.0.0/11 - 2+ Million IP Addresses 
45.192.0.0/12  - 1+ Million IP Addresses 
154.80.0.0/12  - 1+ Million IP Addresses 

The defenders of CIL , do you use the above resources in africa??? 

If so show us the evidence you do.

Trying to bottleneck the organisation will not happen under this communities 
and majority of resource members watch.

regards 
Barry macharia - Resource Holder in AFRINIC 

> On 27 Jul 2021, at 21:41, Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>> 
>> Where is your basis in policy for this?
> 
> Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC 
> members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA.
> 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/KE
> https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ
> https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA
> https://bgp.he.net/country/NG
> https://bgp.he.net/country/MU
> 
> Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR Cloud Innovation Limited with 
> offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool.
> 
> https://bgp.he.net/country/SC
> 
> You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to 
> defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his subsidiary 
> HongKong company Larus  https://www.larus.net/ 
> 
> FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the 
> purpose of leasing despite having received such requests." 
> 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html
> 
> Cheers,
> Noah
> PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both 
> linked to the AFRINIC RSA.
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Yep ... I just saw your email.

I don't know why (asked staff several times), I always get the emails from 
AFRINIC lists 10-15 minutes late (even my own emails). I'm sure is not my 
server, as it doesn't happen to me with several hundreds of other lists from 
IETF, ISOC, and all the other RIRs, to mention just a few!

El 27/7/21 21:43, "Frank Habicht"  escribió:

Hi Jordi,

On 27/07/2021 22:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote:
> This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or 
the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).
> 
> The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think 
it had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
"secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now.
> 
> So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any 
stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my 
points.

it seems 4 minutes earlier I suggested same to Owen.

> Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that 
in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results 
of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during 
all the process: transparency.

I don't know whether or not (under the Mauritius legal system) the
information/documents will become public.
I certainly would like to have AfriNIC ask the courts to consider them.
I was hoping that was clear from my previous emails.


Frank



> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>  
>  
> 
> El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht"  escribió:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
> >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  
wrote:
> >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
> >>> countries combined. What is your point?
> >>
> >> "serves" ...?
> > Yes.>> with connectivity?
> > 
> > In some cases.
> 
> I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
> seen any yet.
> 
> 
> >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
> >> another place.
> > 
> > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP 
address management
> > independent of connectivity.
> 
> "variety of services"
> So my first thought was to press  and the key between v and n
> and then  and the key between a and d
> 
> gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
> understood : BS - bullshit!
> 
> 
> "IP address management"
> putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
> reverse DNS delegations?
>  [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
> Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?
> 
> 
> >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
> >>
> >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
> >> 2. we are investing in africa.
> > 
> > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.
> 
> No doubt.
> Lawyers in Mauritius.
> 
> 
> > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.
> 
> Agree.
> Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
> I maintain this:
> - I have no idea how it was justified.
> - I have no right to see this justification.
> - I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
> - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.
> 
> > At the time the statement was made, it was true.
> 
> I do currently believe that.
> 
> > Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from 
AFRINIC are being used in Africa” would be more accurate.
> 
> I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
> "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
> Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received 
from
> AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?
> 
> 
> >> which is a quote from
> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
> > 
> > Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.
> 
> And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the 
time.
> Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.
> 
> 
> >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
> >> *was*
 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

By the way, if some parts of the justification are still "secret", then we 
could probably live knowing only part of them, redacting the confidential parts.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 27/7/21 21:36, "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss" 
 escribió:

This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or 
the other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).

The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it 
had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
"secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now.

So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any 
stance on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my 
points.

Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that 
in the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results 
of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during 
all the process: transparency.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet



El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht"  escribió:

Hi Owen,

On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
>>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
>>> countries combined. What is your point?
>>
>> "serves" ...?
> Yes.>> with connectivity?
> 
> In some cases.

I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
seen any yet.


>> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
>> another place.
> 
> By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address 
management
> independent of connectivity.

"variety of services"
So my first thought was to press  and the key between v and n
and then  and the key between a and d

gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
understood : BS - bullshit!


"IP address management"
putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
reverse DNS delegations?
 [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?


>> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
>>
>> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
>> 2. we are investing in africa.
> 
> We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.

No doubt.
Lawyers in Mauritius.


> Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.

Agree.
Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
I maintain this:
- I have no idea how it was justified.
- I have no right to see this justification.
- I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
- I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.

> At the time the statement was made, it was true.

I do currently believe that.

> Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC 
are being used in Africa” would be more accurate.

I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
"many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from
AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?


>> which is a quote from
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
> 
> Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.

And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time.
Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.


>> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
>> *was*
>> when it was true.
> 
> And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:
> We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own 
and our customers networks.

"own network" ?
I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to
ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog)

"customers networks."
"customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity.
[ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the
  guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.]

but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses.
which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the
first place??? I beg to doubt!!!

And I think this is what it's all 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Frank Habicht]

Hi Jordi,

On 27/07/2021 22:30, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss wrote:
> This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the 
> other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).
> 
> The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it 
> had so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
> "secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published 
> now.
> 
> So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance 
> on this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points.

it seems 4 minutes earlier I suggested same to Owen.

> Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in 
> the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
> the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the 
> results of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were 
> incorporated during all the process: transparency.

I don't know whether or not (under the Mauritius legal system) the
information/documents will become public.
I certainly would like to have AfriNIC ask the courts to consider them.
I was hoping that was clear from my previous emails.


Frank



> 
> Regards,
> Jordi
> @jordipalet
>  
>  
> 
> El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht"  escribió:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
> >> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
> >>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
> >>> countries combined. What is your point?
> >>
> >> "serves" ...?
> > Yes.>> with connectivity?
> > 
> > In some cases.
> 
> I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
> seen any yet.
> 
> 
> >> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
> >> another place.
> > 
> > By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address 
> management
> > independent of connectivity.
> 
> "variety of services"
> So my first thought was to press  and the key between v and n
> and then  and the key between a and d
> 
> gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
> understood : BS - bullshit!
> 
> 
> "IP address management"
> putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
> reverse DNS delegations?
>  [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
> Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?
> 
> 
> >> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
> >>
> >> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
> >> 2. we are investing in africa.
> > 
> > We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.
> 
> No doubt.
> Lawyers in Mauritius.
> 
> 
> > Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.
> 
> Agree.
> Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
> I maintain this:
> - I have no idea how it was justified.
> - I have no right to see this justification.
> - I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
> - I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.
> 
> > At the time the statement was made, it was true.
> 
> I do currently believe that.
> 
> > Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC 
> are being used in Africa” would be more accurate.
> 
> I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
> "many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
> Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from
> AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?
> 
> 
> >> which is a quote from
> >> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
> > 
> > Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.
> 
> And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time.
> Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.
> 
> 
> >> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
> >> *was*
> >> when it was true.
> > 
> > And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:
> > We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and 
> our customers networks.
> 
> "own network" ?
> I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to
> ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog)
> 
> "customers networks."
> "customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity.
> [ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the
>   guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.]
> 
> but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses.
> which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the
> first place??? I beg to doubt!!!
> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

This will be very simple to resolve (not taking a position in one side or the 
other because I don't have all the real facts and documents).

The original justificacion of the request of the resources I don't think it had 
so many "secret" and "confidential" details. After several years if any 
"secrets" were there, probably aren't longer something that can't published now.

So why not CI, voluntarely publish that information? I don't have any stance on 
this game, but if I was CI, this will be the best way to probe my points.

Otherwise, I will suggest that AFRINIC asks the court to incorporate that in 
the proceedings if is not there already, this way, whatever is the result of 
the case, everybody will know it. At least in the countries I know, the results 
of the cases are public, as well as the documents that were incorporated during 
all the process: transparency.

Regards,
Jordi
@jordipalet
 
 

El 27/7/21 21:12, "Frank Habicht"  escribió:

Hi Owen,

On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
>>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
>>> countries combined. What is your point?
>>
>> "serves" ...?
> Yes.>> with connectivity?
> 
> In some cases.

I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
seen any yet.


>> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
>> another place.
> 
> By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address 
management
> independent of connectivity.

"variety of services"
So my first thought was to press  and the key between v and n
and then  and the key between a and d

gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
understood : BS - bullshit!


"IP address management"
putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
reverse DNS delegations?
 [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?


>> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
>>
>> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
>> 2. we are investing in africa.
> 
> We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.

No doubt.
Lawyers in Mauritius.


> Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.

Agree.
Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
I maintain this:
- I have no idea how it was justified.
- I have no right to see this justification.
- I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
- I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.

> At the time the statement was made, it was true.

I do currently believe that.

> Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are 
being used in Africa” would be more accurate.

I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
"many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from
AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?


>> which is a quote from
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
> 
> Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.

And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time.
Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.


>> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
>> *was*
>> when it was true.
> 
> And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:
> We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and 
our customers networks.

"own network" ?
I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to
ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog)

"customers networks."
"customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity.
[ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the
  guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.]

but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses.
which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the
first place??? I beg to doubt!!!

And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC
interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the
community.

> This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no 
basis in current policy to deny it and
> it remains a true statement to this day.

If
it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's
"customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of
the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting
BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being
  

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Frank Habicht]

On 27/07/2021 19:27, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
>> our customers in Africa" ?
> 
> I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa.
> How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address
> space in question?

I really hope we can agree that AfriNIC did never outright "sell" the IP
address space. But gave the right to use subject to justification(s).

If not, we seem to live in different universes.

>> Did CI?
> 
> 7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the
> changing business
> environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other
> continents. CI
> submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred.

I am not sure whether AfriNIC expanded it's acceptance for the use of IP
resources by CI to the same extent.


>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> 
> Where is your basis in policy for this?

In the justification from CI for the IP address space. which I haven't
seen. Want to share?


Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Frank Habicht]

Hi Owen,

On 27/07/2021 19:09, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
>>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
>>> countries combined. What is your point?
>>
>> "serves" ...?
> Yes.>> with connectivity?
> 
> In some cases.

I'll just mentally insert the word "few" in there, because i haven't
seen any yet.


>> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
>> another place.
> 
> By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address 
> management
> independent of connectivity.

"variety of services"
So my first thought was to press  and the key between v and n
and then  and the key between a and d

gosh, at the risk of getting my hand slapped, just to make sure i'm
understood : BS - bullshit!


"IP address management"
putting something into AfriNIC's Whois / IRR ?
reverse DNS delegations?
 [ probably only at extra cost (wild guess) ]
Using AfriNIC's auth DNS servers, by just updating domain: objects?


>> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
>>
>> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
>> 2. we are investing in africa.
> 
> We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.

No doubt.
Lawyers in Mauritius.


> Regarding the former statement, things do change over time.

Agree.
Also validity of justifications of IPv4 space.
I maintain this:
- I have no idea how it was justified.
- I have no right to see this justification.
- I consider it likely that commitments have been made.
- I consider it likely that not all were - and still are - fulfilled.

> At the time the statement was made, it was true.

I do currently believe that.

> Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are 
> being used in Africa” would be more accurate.

I'm still not too sure about my English knowledge. Especially about
"many". I generally encourage people to be as specific as possible.
Can I interpret this as "more than three IPv4 addresses we received from
AFRINIC are being used in Africa” ?


>> which is a quote from
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html
> 
> Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.

And I believe so was the justification for IPv4 addresses - at the time.
Currently, I believe that. That back then the justification was ok.


>> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
>> *was*
>> when it was true.
> 
> And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:
> We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our 
> customers networks.

"own network" ?
I believe that in your home area it would be a very valid question to
ask: "which AS is that?" (ie on nanog)

"customers networks."
"customer" certainly not in terms of connectivity.
[ to be specific: for 99% of traffic towards these IPs [1], I hazard the
  guess that it doesn't pass through CI connectivity.]

but "customer" instead only in terms of leasing IP addresses.
which you (CI) got the right to do when getting them from AfriNIC in the
first place??? I beg to doubt!!!

And I think this is what it's all about. CI interpretation vs AfriNIC
interpretation. And I think that latter is shared with a majority of the
community.

> This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis 
> in current policy to deny it and
> it remains a true statement to this day.

If
it was a perfectly valid justification to provide addresses to CI's
"customers" - without the "customers" receiving (for all the duration of
the lease) any services but the lease of IPv4 addresses (not counting
BS-"IP address management"), and with that fact (of leasing) being
stated in said justification - and this accepted as justification at the
time by AfriNIC,
then
I rest my case.


Frank

PS: sorry for the long sentence, it seems my mind turned "legal".

[1]
"these IPs":
2x /11 and 2x /12

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Arnaud AMELINA]

@Noah +1

Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 à 18:41, Noah  a écrit :

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>>
>>
>> Where is your basis in policy for this?
>>
>
> Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC
> members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA.
>
> https://bgp.he.net/country/KE
> https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ
> https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA
> https://bgp.he.net/country/NG
> https://bgp.he.net/country/MU
>
> Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR *Cloud Innovation Limited* with
> offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool.
>
>
> *https://bgp.he.net/country/SC *
>
> You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to
> defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his
> subsidiary HongKong company Larus  https://www.larus.net/
>
> FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the
> purpose of leasing despite having received such requests."
>
>
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
> PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both
> linked to the AFRINIC RSA.
>
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 7:32 PM Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

>
> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>
>
> Where is your basis in policy for this?
>

Let me attempt to answer your fake question with links that show AFRINIC
members from some of the 54 AFRICAN countries with real networks in AFRICA.

https://bgp.he.net/country/KE
https://bgp.he.net/country/TZ
https://bgp.he.net/country/ZA
https://bgp.he.net/country/NG
https://bgp.he.net/country/MU

Or wait... I can not find this so-called LIR *Cloud Innovation Limited* with
offices in Seychelles using this BGP tool.


*https://bgp.he.net/country/SC *

You try so hard to pretend with your alternative reality in your quest to
defend Heng Lu and his IP ADDRESS SOLUTIONS business run under his
subsidiary HongKong company Larus  https://www.larus.net/

FYI... "AFRINIC has never approved any application for IP space for the
purpose of leasing despite having received such requests."

https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html

Cheers,
Noah
PS: The ALLOCATION POLICY is linked to the AFRINIC BYLAWS which are both
linked to the AFRINIC RSA.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[robert ford via Community-Discuss]

This is well noted. 

Thank you CEO.

Ford

Sent from my iPhone

> On 27 Jul 2021, at 18:04, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss 
>  wrote:
> 
> You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when 
> setting the hearing for August 4.
> 
> For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge’s order here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
>> On Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura  wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Colleagues,
>> 
>> I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages 
>> translations in full.
>> 
>> Apologies for the double posting.
>> --
>> 
>> Kind Regards
>> 
>> Eddy Kayihura M.
>> Chief Executive Officer
>> AFRINIC Ltd.
>> 
>> t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  https://www.afrinic.net  |  
>> youtube.com/afrinicmedia
>> ___
>> 
>> Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in 
>> Africa”
>> Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient 
>> services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”
>> Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)
>> 
>> 
>> ***
>> This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They 
>> may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended 
>> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. 
>> If you have received this email by error please notify the sender 
>> immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also 
>> notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in 
>> relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the 
>> message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full 
>> responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and 
>> other defects.
>> 
>> ***
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>> 
>>> From: Eddy Kayihura 
>>> Subject: AFRINIC's Update
>>> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4
>>> To: AfriNIC Discuss 
>>> 
>>> Dear Members,
>>> 
>>> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial 
>>> Accounts and the options we are considering.
>>> 
>>> Please watch the video here 
>>> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)
>>> 
>>> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest 
>>> development in the matter regarding AFRINIC’s application lodged yesterday 
>>> seeking a variation of the freezing order.
>>> 
>>> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 
>>> 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks,  to 
>>> communicate their stand in the matter. 
>>> 
>>> We shall update you accordingly. 
>>> 
>>> Eddy Kayihura
>>> 
>>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
>>> 
>>> c...@afrinic.net 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> …….
>>> 
>>> Chers membres,
>>> 
>>> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise à jour sur le gel des comptes 
>>> financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons.
>>> 
>>> Veuillez regarder la vidéo ici 
>>> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)
>>>  - cliquez sur la page en français pour texte en français. La vidéo 
>>> malheureusement n’est disponible qu’en anglais.
>>> 
>>> En outre, après l'enregistrement de la vidéo, il y a eu un dernier 
>>> développement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC déposée hier 
>>> pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes.
>>> 
>>> La dernière mise à jour est que le Learned Judge a fixé l'affaire au 4 août 
>>> 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur 
>>> position dans l'affaire. 
>>> 
>>> Nous vous tiendrons informés en conséquence. 
>>> 
>>> Eddy Kayihura
>>> 
>>> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
>>> 
>>> c...@afrinic.net 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> .
>>> أعضاء 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Leo S]

I just share the information that I know. And seeing a bunch of mercenaries
and Water Army in the community is very disgusting.

On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 7:39 PM Anthony Ubah 
wrote:

> Dear Leo S,
>
> You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish
> you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive.
> While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here
> shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes?
> You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. *"This is good news
> for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the
> end user."*
>
>
> *Regards,*
>
> *Anthony*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S  wrote:
>
>> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the
>> address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income
>> Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd,
>> this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere
>> $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount
>> of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise.
>>
>> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the
>> IP address for the end user.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo,
>>> shades no light to present discussion at hand.
>>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng”
>>> guy.
>>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no
>>> question whether this is a personal attack or not.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Elvis.
>>>
>>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > In message <
>>> cakkt+fdleydt7jqvmvsruuh5ouhl4xvvpb1bbikscx5wocg...@mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Wijdane Goubi  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A
>>> few
>>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is
>>> smart
>>> >> and knows who should pay the money to.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged
>>> in
>>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation?
>>> >
>>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above,
>>> contitutes
>>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it
>>> was
>>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to
>>> > the present discussion.
>>> >
>>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this
>>> mailing
>>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that.  Perhaps
>>> that
>>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of
>>> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and
>>> without
>>> > adequate thought.
>>> >
>>> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract
>>> that
>>> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that.  We already
>>> have
>>> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't
>>> be
>>> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that
>>> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those
>>> times
>>> > when our passions override our reason.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > rfg
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>> ___
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
>
___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 06:19 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah,  > wrote:
> Oh Noah,
> 
> 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your stakes?
> There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If 
> anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the 
> appropriate channels?
> 
> 
> Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up 
> characters to incite friction.樂
> 
> 
> As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with Heng 
> Lu.

Do you have evidence to support this ad hominem?

> I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it.

Then please do share?

> Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls.

It is interesting how you simultaneously engage in ad hominem against one 
person while calling for an end
to ad hominem against another. In reality, the ad hominem should stop in both 
directions. You should stop
making ad hominem attacks and so should Anthony (and anyone else).

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:31 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
> our customers in Africa" ?

I have no idea what they did or did not commit to with regards to Africa.
How is that relevant to the question at hand regarding the amount of address
space in question?

> Did CI?

7 years ago, CI made such a statement. CI subsequently adapted to the changing 
business
environment and expanded its operations to include both Africa and other 
continents. CI
submitted appropriate updates to WHOIS as these changes occurred.

> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.

Where is your basis in policy for this?

Owen

> 
> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
>> the amount of space
>> held by:
>> 
>> Non-LIRs (end users):
>> Hewlett Packard
>> Apple Computer
>> 
>> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
>> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
>> 
>> LIRs:
>> XFINITY/Comcast
>> Verizon
>> Akamai
>> XO Communications
>> Amazon
>> Microsoft
>> Google
>> etc.
>> 
>> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
>> above organizations.
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ronald
>>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
>>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
>>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
>>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com> 
>>> >> wrote:
>>> 
>>>In message
>>>>>  
>>> >>  
>>> >>
>>>Meriem Dayday mailto:meriemday...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>> 
 This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>> 
>>>No, actually, it isn't.
>>> 
>>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of
>>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
>>>effectively
>>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
>>>number of
>>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net  
>>> >, etc.)
>>> 
>>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an
>>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
>>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then what
>>>is next?  Book burning?
>>> 
 Disclosing such information and data without the company's
>>>consent is a
 clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
 concerned person.
>>> 
>>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
>>>obvious
>>>logical problems.
>>> 
>>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
>>>various
>>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,
>>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
>>>nature
>>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private intranet,
>>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
>>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
>>>minute any
>>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
>>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
>>>for being
>>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
>>>experiment we
>>>call the Internet.
>>> 
>>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>>>Innovation.
>>>And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
>>>that well
>>>more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4
>>>address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
>>>a state
>>>secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
>>>public
>>>sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
>>>information.
>>> 
>>>Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
>>>assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
>>>RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question,
>>>and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
>>>courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. 
>>>But the
>>>mere facts of how Cloud 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:26 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On 27/07/2021 08:28, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah >> > wrote:
>>> So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend,
>>> we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses
>>> than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't
>>> even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad.
>> 
>> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
>> countries combined. What is your point?
> 
> "serves" ...?

Yes.

> with connectivity?

In some cases.

> Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
> another place.

By providing a variety of services, some of which include IP address management
independent of connectivity.

> this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of
> 
> 1. the resource we take are using in africa.
> 2. we are investing in africa.

We are definitely investing in Africa. That statement remains true.

Regarding the former statement, things do change over time. At the time the 
statement was made, it was true.
Today, the statement “many of the resources we received from AFRINIC are being 
used in Africa” would be more accurate.

> which is a quote from
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html

Yes… It’s a 7 year old statement which was true at the time.

> and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
> *was*
> when it was true.

And today, a good reason to keep the addresses is:

We use the addresses to number internet connected hosts on our own and our 
customers networks.

This is a perfectly valid justification for addresses and there is no basis in 
current policy to deny it and
it remains a true statement to this day.

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

You also left out the part where the judge denied your ex parte request when setting the hearing for August 4.For the avoidance of doubt, I have attached a copy of the Judge’s order here:

Judge's Order 27 July 2021 -18760920210727172338.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document
OwenOn Jul 27, 2021, at 07:44 , Eddy Kayihura <e...@afrinic.net> wrote:Dear Colleagues,I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages translations in full.Apologies for the double posting.
--Kind RegardsEddy Kayihura M.Chief Executive OfficerAFRINIC Ltd.t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  https://www.afrinic.net  |  youtube.com/afrinicmedia___Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa”Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)***This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects.***


Begin forwarded message:From: Eddy Kayihura <e...@afrinic.net>Subject: AFRINIC's UpdateDate: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4To: AfriNIC Discuss <members-disc...@afrinic.net>Dear Members,I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts and the options we are considering.Please watch the video here (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest development in the matter regarding AFRINIC’s application lodged yesterday seeking a variation of the freezing order.The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks,  to communicate their stand in the matter. We shall update you accordingly. Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer, AFRINICc...@afrinic.net …….Chers membres,Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise à jour sur le gel des comptes financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons.Veuillez regarder la vidéo ici (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts) - cliquez sur la page en français pour texte en français. La vidéo malheureusement n’est disponible qu’en anglais.En outre, après l'enregistrement de la vidéo, il y a eu un dernier développement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC déposée hier pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes.La dernière mise à jour est que le Learned Judge a fixé l'affaire au 4 août 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur position dans l'affaire. Nous vous tiendrons informés en conséquence. Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer, AFRINICc...@afrinic.net .أعضاء العزيز،أود أن أطلعكم على آخر المستجدات بشأن تجميد حسابات AFRINIC المالية والخيارات التي ندرسها.يرجى مشاهدة الفيديو هنا (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)علاوة على ذلك ، بعد تسجيل الفيديو ، كان هناك تطور جديد في الموضوع فيما يتعلق بطلب Afrinic الذي تم تقديمه أمس للحصول على تغيير في أمر التجميد.آخر تحديث هو أن القاضي المستعلم قد أصلح الأمر في 4 أغسطس 2021 للأطراف الأخرى للتعبير عن موقفهم في هذا الشأن.سنقوم بتحديثك وفقا لذلك.Eddy KayihuraChief Executive Officer, AFRINICc...@afrinic.net …….Caros Membros,Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualização sobre o congelamento das Contas Financeiras AFRINIC e as opções que estamos a considerar.Por favor, veja o vídeo aqui (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts)Além disso, após a gravação do vídeo, houve um último desenvolvimento na questão relativa ao pedido da Afrinic apresentado ontem solicitando uma variação da ordem de congelamento.A última actualização é que o Learned Judge fixou o assunto para 4 de Agosto de 2021 para que as outras partes comunicassem a sua posição sobre o assunto. Iremos actualizá-lo em conformidade. ___Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in Africa”Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient services

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Leo S]

You are right. You are a professional, I think you will not ignore the
allocation date such as you listed

held by:

Non-LIRs (end users):
Hewlett Packard
Apple Computer

Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
Amateur Radio (AMPR)

LIRs:
XFINITY/Comcast
Verizon
Akamai
XO Communications
Amazon
Microsoft
Google
etc.

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 1:24 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
> the amount of space
> held by:
>
> Non-LIRs (end users):
> Hewlett Packard
> Apple Computer
>
> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
>
> LIRs:
> XFINITY/Comcast
> Verizon
> Akamai
> XO Communications
> Amazon
> Microsoft
> Google
> etc.
>
> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the above
> organizations.
>
> Owen
>
>
> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S  wrote:
>
> Hi Ronald
> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a shocking
> number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block allocated. This
> is not in 199x year.
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette 
> wrote:
>
>> In message <
>> calm9cbn+r9oen9+9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com>
>> Meriem Dayday  wrote:
>>
>> >This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>
>> No, actually, it isn't.
>>
>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of
>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is effectively
>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any number of
>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net, etc.)
>>
>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an
>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
>> telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then what
>> is next?  Book burning?
>>
>> >Disclosing such information and data without the company's consent is a
>> >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>> >concerned person.
>>
>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different obvious
>> logical problems.
>>
>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what various
>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,
>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the nature
>> of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private intranet,
>> then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the minute any
>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange for being
>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications experiment we
>> call the Internet.
>>
>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>> Innovation.
>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself that well
>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4
>> address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not a state
>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100% public
>> sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
>> information.
>>
>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question,
>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine.  But the
>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned
>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the available
>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.  Any attempt to portray
>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship.
>>
>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained in the
>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences
>> on the concerned person."
>>
>> Exactly so!  If the guy who posted the material you are reacting to was
>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the
>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation,
>> then why are YOU worried about it?  Why should AFRINIC be worried about
>> it?  Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit
>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the (allegedly) defamatory
>> text, and he obviiously was willing to take the risk in order to express
>> his opinion, SO WHAT IS THAT TO YOU?
>>
>> Here again, shouting down in the original poster in this manner appears
>> to me to be just another a heavy-handed attempt at pointless censorship.
>>
>> I hope that we here can all have open and frank discusions of all of the
>> issues now of concern to AFRINIC without these kinds of attempts to
>> muzzle 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Leo S]

Hi Owen,

I don't know how much you know about your employer.
Cloud Innovation Ltd no employees and equipment. Cloud Innovation Ltd
Authorize these IP address authorization to LARUS Hong Kong doing lease
business. All the LOA I received came from LARUS Hong Kong

LARUS does have employees but AFRINIC assigned the address to Cloud
Innovation Ltd, a paper entity (brief case companies.) with no employees,
equipment and services.


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 1:12 PM Owen DeLong  wrote:

>
>
> On Jul 25, 2021, at 09:26 , Leo S  wrote:
>
> Exactly, I am not particularly opposed to their IP leasing business. With
> the current exhaustion of IP addresses, many small ISPs have no choice but
> to obtain IP addresses from them. Large ISPs will choose to purchase IP
> addresses directly. such as alibabacloud.
> The current situation poses risks to users who rent their IP addresses. I
> think the problem itself is AFRINIC's own problem. Who allocated 7 million
> addresses to them? As far as I know, even providers like OVH do not have 7
> million IP addresses. And a paper company can get 7 million IP addresses.
>
>
> Now you have wandered into an inappropriate and false accusation.
>
> Cloud Innovation is NOT a “paper company” or a “shell corporation”. It is
> a legitimate business with customers, revenue, accounting, and provides (by
> your own admission) a valuable service to the IP number using community.
>
> Indeed, a service you found useful and valuable at one time.
>
> I don’t know who OVH is, but I can say that in general, Cloud Innovations
> address space is well utilized and their record-keeping is some of the most
> meticulous I’ve observed in the industry.
>
> Every customer provides a needs justification that would be accepted by
> virtually any RIR they could apply to and CI is careful not to lease to
> spammers and other miscreants.
>
> They are very responsive to abuse complaints and terminate problem
> accounts very quickly.
>
> In short, they are a real company providing a real and valuable service to
> the internet and a model citizen of the IP number resource using community
> with the exception that there is some controversy surrounding the idea of
> leasing numbers without a connectivity contract.
>
> What is truly silly about this is that in reality, it would be trivial for
> them to create connectivity to eliminate this controversy while still
> preserving exactly the same business model in a number of ways. Should the
> community pass a policy that prohibits leasing without connectivity, it
> will be a simple (though inconvenient) matter for Cloud Innovation to
> implement trivial connections to their customers while said customers
> continue to advertise their less specifics to the internet via their other
> providers.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 12:09 AM Andrew Alston <
> andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:
>
>> What absolute nonsense - unless there is an NDA protecting the
>> relationship people are free to disclose.
>>
>> That’s like saying I can’t state that I buy jeans from party X - internet
>> services from party Y - or eat a particular brand of chocolate.
>>
>
> You are officially banned from Godiva… There, I said it. What are you
> going to do about it?
> :p
>
> Yes, you are correct, this is utterly silly.
>
> Owen
>
>
>> Sorry unless there are confidentiality clauses in place - absolute
>> rubbish - and if there are - that is between the buyer and the seller and
>> has nothing to do with anyone on here
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS 
>> --
>> *From:* Meriem Dayday 
>> *Sent:* Sunday, July 25, 2021 6:53:45 PM
>> *To:* Leo S 
>> *Cc:* community-discuss@afrinic.net 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and
>> their business
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>
>> Disclosing such information and data without the company’s consent is a
>> clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>> concerned person.
>>
>> Having a business or other relationship with the said company does not
>> give you the right to divulge such details on a public mailing list. That
>> is quite appalling.
>>
>> Please refrain from violating the CoC and attacking entities in such
>> manner. It can only be troublesome.
>>
>> I am urging the PDWG chairs to act immediately by sanctioning the sender
>> and deleting this delicate email from the list.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Le dim. 25 juil. 2021 à 15:39, Leo S  a écrit :
>>
>> About Cloud Innovation Ltd I want to talk about their business model.
>> They got 7 Million IPv4 addresses from AFRINIC at a price of $10,000 USD
>> per year, and then leased them to ISPs or end users at a price of ~2
>> USD/year/IPv4 (large block in 2018 if Small block may be more expensive
>> maybe $3 USD) and with an annual increase of 15% fee from the price
>>
>> So the cost is $10,000 USD
>> Revenue is 7M x 2 = 14 Million
>> so it’s 15% profit
>>
>> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 00:35, Omo Oaiya  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that
>> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud
>> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand.  I personally have
>> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I
>> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that
>> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance.  But to try
>> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the
>> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous.  It is silly.
> 
I did not deny that a relationship exists. I pointed out that there is no 
evidence presented to indicate that it is anything more than customer/supplier. 

> It won’t be the first time we have seen this sort of behaviour from Owen.  
> Even before he became a hired gun for Cloud Innovation.  The archive abounds 
> with examples for anyone who cares to look.

What kind of behavior are you referring to, exactly, Omo? Stating facts? Sure, 
I’ve done that for a long time. Questioning accusations made without supporting 
evidence? Yep, you got me there. Expressing skepticism about attempts to imply 
wrongdoing through innuendo and implication without actual evidence? Yep, done 
that too. 

> AFRINIC is the registry for the African region.Like Noah says, this is a 
> matter of accountability and a moment in AFRINIC history.   The much-maligned 
> board needs to bear this in mind and hold strong in their pursuit for equity 
> and justice.

If that was what they were pursuing, I’d be all for it. But to call it equity 
or justice, it must be within the bounds of and guided by the governing 
documents as written, not some arbitrary sense of vigilantism driven by some 
unwritten set of ideals.

Owen

___
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

[Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update (with translation)

[Eddy Kayihura]

Dear Colleagues,

I realised that the previous message did not have the other languages 
translations in full.

Apologies for the double posting.
--

Kind Regards

Eddy Kayihura M.
Chief Executive Officer
AFRINIC Ltd.

t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  https://www.afrinic.net  |  
youtube.com/afrinicmedia
___

Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in 
Africa”
Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient 
services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”
Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)


***
This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They 
may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely 
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have 
received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and 
delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, 
copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is 
strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any 
attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and 
remedial action about viruses and other defects.

***



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Eddy Kayihura 
> Subject: AFRINIC's Update
> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4
> To: AfriNIC Discuss 
> 
> Dear Members,
> 
> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial 
> Accounts and the options we are considering.
> 
> Please watch the video here 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
> 
> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest 
> development in the matter regarding AFRINIC’s application lodged yesterday 
> seeking a variation of the freezing order.
> 
> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 
> 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks,  to 
> communicate their stand in the matter. 
> 
> We shall update you accordingly. 
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
> c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net> 
> 
> 
> …….
> 
> Chers membres,
> 
> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise à jour sur le gel des comptes 
> financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons.
> 
> Veuillez regarder la vidéo ici 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
>  - cliquez sur la page en français pour texte en français. La vidéo 
> malheureusement n’est disponible qu’en anglais.
> 
> En outre, après l'enregistrement de la vidéo, il y a eu un dernier 
> développement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC déposée hier 
> pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes.
> 
> La dernière mise à jour est que le Learned Judge a fixé l'affaire au 4 août 
> 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur 
> position dans l'affaire. 
> 
> Nous vous tiendrons informés en conséquence. 
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
> c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> أعضاء العزيز،
> 
> أود أن أطلعكم على آخر المستجدات بشأن تجميد حسابات AFRINIC المالية والخيارات 
> التي ندرسها.
> 
> يرجى مشاهدة الفيديو هنا 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
> 
> علاوة على ذلك ، بعد تسجيل الفيديو ، كان هناك تطور جديد في الموضوع فيما يتعلق 
> بطلب Afrinic الذي تم تقديمه أمس للحصول على تغيير في أمر التجميد.
> 
> آخر تحديث هو أن القاضي المستعلم قد أصلح الأمر في 4 أغسطس 2021 للأطراف الأخرى 
> للتعبير عن موقفهم في هذا الشأن.
> 
> سنقوم بتحديثك وفقا لذلك.
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
>  <mailto:c...@afrinic.net>c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net> 
> 
> …….
> 
> 
> Caros Membros,
> 
> Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualização sobre o congelamento das Contas 
> Financeiras AFRINIC e as opções que estamos a considerar.
> 
> Por favor, veja o vídeo aqui 
> (https://afrinic.n

[Community-Discuss] AFRINIC's Update

[Eddy Kayihura]

Dear Colleagues,

Please take note of the message below that has been shared with members 
providing an update on our current situation.

--

Kind Regards

Eddy Kayihura M.
Chief Executive Officer
AFRINIC Ltd.

t: +230 403 51 00  |  tt: @afrinic  |  https://www.afrinic.net  |  
youtube.com/afrinicmedia
___

Vision: “A secure and accessible Internet for sustainable digital growth in 
Africa”
Mission: “To serve the African Internet community by delivering efficient 
services in a global multi-stakeholder environment”
Values: EPIC (■ Excellence ■ Passion ■ Integrity ■ Community Driven)


***
This email and any attachment (s) transmitted with it are confidential. They 
may also be privileged or otherwise protected by law. They are intended solely 
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have 
received this email by error please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and 
delete this e-mail from your system. You are also notified that disclosing, 
copying, distributing, or taking any action in relation to its contents is 
strictly prohibited and unlawful. By reading the message and opening any 
attachment, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and 
remedial action about viruses and other defects.

***



> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: Eddy Kayihura 
> Subject: [members-discuss] AFRINIC's Update
> Date: 27 July 2021 at 18:31:59 GMT+4
> To: AfriNIC Discuss 
> 
> Signed PGP part
> Dear Members,
> 
> I wish to share with you an update on the freezing of AFRINIC Financial 
> Accounts and the options we are considering.
> 
> Please watch the video here 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
> 
> Besides, after the recording of the video, there has been a latest 
> development in the matter regarding AFRINIC’s application lodged yesterday 
> seeking a variation of the freezing order.
> 
> The latest update is that the Learned Judge has fixed the matter for August 
> 4th 2021 for the other parties, including the concerned banks,  to 
> communicate their stand in the matter.
> 
> We shall update you accordingly.
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
> c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net>
> 
> 
> …….
> 
> Chers membres,
> 
> Je souhaite partager avec vous une mise à jour sur le gel des comptes 
> financiers d'AFRINIC et les options que nous envisageons.
> 
> Veuillez regarder la vidéo ici 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
>  - cliquez sur la page en français pour texte en français. La vidéo 
> malheureusement n’est disponible qu’en anglais.
> 
> En outre, après l'enregistrement de la vidéo, il y a eu un dernier 
> développement dans l'affaire concernant la demande d'AFRINIC déposée hier 
> pour une modification de l`ordre de gel de nos comptes.
> 
> La dernière mise à jour est que le Learned Judge a fixé l'affaire au 4 août 
> 2021 pour que les autres parties, incluant les banques, communiquent leur 
> position dans l'affaire.
> 
> Nous vous tiendrons informés en conséquence.
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
> c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net>
> 
> 
> 
> .
> أعضاء العزيز،
> 
> أود أن أطلعكم على آخر المستجدات بشأن تجميد حسابات AFRINIC المالية والخيارات 
> التي ندرسها.
> 
> يرجى مشاهدة الفيديو هنا 
> (https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts
>  
> <https://afrinic.net/20210727-ceo-addresses-freezing-of-afrinic-financial-accounts>)
> 
> علاوة على ذلك ، بعد تسجيل الفيديو ، كان هناك تطور جديد في الموضوع فيما يتعلق 
> بطلب Afrinic الذي تم تقديمه أمس للحصول على تغيير في أمر التجميد.
> 
> آخر تحديث هو أن القاضي المستعلم قد أصلح الأمر في 4 أغسطس 2021 للأطراف الأخرى 
> للتعبير عن موقفهم في هذا الشأن.
> 
> سنقوم بتحديثك وفقا لذلك.
> 
> Eddy Kayihura
> 
> Chief Executive Officer, AFRINIC
> 
>  <mailto:c...@afrinic.net>c...@afrinic.net <mailto:c...@afrinic.net>
> 
> …….
> 
> 
> Caros Membros,
> 
> Desejo partilhar convosco uma actualização sobre o congelamento das Contas 
> Financeiras AFRINIC e as opções que estamos a considerar.
> 
> Por favor, veja o vídeo aqui 
> (h

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Lili Au]

Thank you Noah,

Hi everyone,

I'm afraid that I can not share the LOA since it will give them some clues.
But I can say --

- Leo is saying the truth. or even more revenue that CI earns from leasing
service. I know their pricing, I know their business model.
- As I said, CI will issue LOA to LARUS, and LARUS issue the LOA to their
client, as you guys may know CI belongs to who, and
- LARUS Limited (a company registered in Hong Kong) belongs to the guy who
we know, for those interested, please check from ICRIS(
https://www.icris.cr.gov.hk/csci/), which was created by the Hong Kong
government - Company Registry. it's public record, you just need to pay
11HKD(1.41USD) to check:)
- I don't know much about Africa on Cloud, but please check their ASN, it's
interesting when you look at those ranges:) Oh, a few months ago I received
a call before from LARUS about the election and they want me to vote for
Mr. Paul Wallner, anyone else got this call too?
- Some guys keep talking here is hired by CI or LARUS, apparently,
- Anyone can lease IP address from LARUS: https://ipv4.larus.net/, you just
need to fill in some information and pay. then you will get an LOA within
few days, most of their blocks from CI, only around 1% from other
companies(their management service)
- LARUS keep leasing out CI's IP blocks, but for those idle blocks, CI will
keep broadcast under some ASNs like AS328608 (South Africa), AS35916 (USA),
or AS134548 (HK)

At last, I got a question is When AFRINIC will open Inter-RIR transfer
policy? I'm pretty sure that CI will transfer all the IP blocks to other
RIR:)

Best

Noah  於 2021年7月27日 週二 下午9:20寫道：

>
>
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah, 
> wrote:
>
>> Oh Noah,
>>
>> 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your
>> stakes?
>> There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong?
>> If anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down
>> the appropriate channels?
>>
>>
>> Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up
>> characters to incite friction.樂
>>
>
>
> As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with
> Heng Lu.
>
> I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it.
>
> Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls.
>
> Noah
>
>
>
>> Then again, what are your stakes?
>>
>>
>> Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it
>> right, not for commotion sake.
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah, 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Didin't co...@afrinic.net already close this thread?

 Here's another bait email trolling the community.

>>>
>>> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of?
>>>
>>> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread.
>>>
>>> They only cautioned on violation of CoC.
>>>
>>> Noah
>>>

 *Best Regards,*

 *Anthony*


 On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  wrote:

> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS
> ( a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
> correct.
>
> —
>
> > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to
> connect
> > our customers in Africa" ?
> >
> > Did CI?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> >
> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> >
> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please
> consider
> >> the amount of space
> >> held by:
> >>
> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
> >> Hewlett Packard
> >> Apple Computer
> >>
> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
> >>
> >> LIRs:
> >> XFINITY/Comcast
> >> Verizon
> >> Akamai
> >> XO Communications
> >> Amazon
> >> Microsoft
> >> Google
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
> >> above organizations.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ronald
> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>In message
> >>><
> calm9cbn+r9oen9+9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com
>  

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Murungi Daniel via Community-Discuss]

Dear Paschal,

As I have explicitly stated before, I do not agree with personal attacks 
against anyone with differing opinions. It is clear that there are still 
community members who have information pertinent to this thread that the 
community should know about (IMHO).

Given what is at stake, and with all due respect to the AFRINIC COMMS team, If 
that earns me a slap on the wrist (not the face :) ), then so be it.

Regards,
Daniel

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 4:18 PM, Paschal Ochang  wrote:
> 
> This thread is not open according to the mail below. Unless as usual you want 
> the whole community to ignore calls for regard of authority and go down the 
> lane of non moderation of discussions.
> 
> On Monday, July 26, 2021, AFRINIC Communication  > wrote:
> Dear Colleagues,
> 
> We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it seems 
> to be mostly geared towards personal attacks.
> 
> Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those 
> who do not comply and choose to ignore this message.
> 
> Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of 
> Conduct: 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html 
> 
> 
> Regards
> AFRINIC Communications
> 
> ……
> 
> 
> Chers collègues,
> 
> Nous vous invitons à vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car il 
> semble être principalement orienté vers des attaques personnelles.
> 
> Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait être contrainte d'émettre des 
> avertissements à ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce 
> message.
> 
> Veuillez également vous référer à l'email que nous avons envoyé ce matin sur 
> le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html 
> 
> 
> Cordialement,
> AFRINIC Communications
> 
> 
>> On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah > > wrote:
>> 
>> Dear Leo S,
>> 
>> You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish 
>> you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive.
>> While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here 
>> shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes? 
>> You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. "This is good news for 
>> ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the end 
>> user."
>> 
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Anthony
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S > > wrote:
>> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the address 
>> is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income Forced to 
>> close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd, this is more 
>> than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere $10,000 USD. 
>> Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount of money so I 
>> think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise.
>> 
>> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP 
>> address for the end user.
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis > > wrote:
>> Hello, 
>> 
>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo, 
>> shades no light to present discussion at hand.
>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng” guy. 
>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no 
>> question whether this is a personal attack or not. 
>> 
>> Best, 
>> Elvis.
>> 
>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette > > > wrote:
>> > 
>> > In message 
>> > > > >
>> > Wijdane Goubi mailto:goubi.wijd...@gmail.com>> 
>> > wrote:
>> > 
>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A few
>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is smart
>> >> and knows who should pay the money to.
>> >> 
>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged in
>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation?
>> > 
>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above, 
>> > contitutes
>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it was
>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to
>> > the present discussion.
>> > 
>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this mailing
>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that.  Perhaps that
>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of
>> > such utterances when they are made in 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 15:20 Antone Ubah,  wrote:

> Oh Noah,
>
> 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your
> stakes?
> There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If
> anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the
> appropriate channels?
>
>
> Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up
> characters to incite friction.樂
>


As far as I know and for a fact, you Antony are a puppet associated with
Heng Lu.

I know this for a fact and enough data to prove it.

Whoever Lili Au is, they have the right to speak and dont call them trolls.

Noah



> Then again, what are your stakes?
>
>
> Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it
> right, not for commotion sake.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Anthony
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah,  wrote:
>>
>>> Didin't co...@afrinic.net already close this thread?
>>>
>>> Here's another bait email trolling the community.
>>>
>>
>> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of?
>>
>> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread.
>>
>> They only cautioned on violation of CoC.
>>
>> Noah
>>
>>>
>>> *Best Regards,*
>>>
>>> *Anthony*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  wrote:
>>>
 A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS (
 a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
 correct.

 —

 > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
 >
 > Hi,
 >
 > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to
 connect
 > our customers in Africa" ?
 >
 > Did CI?
 >
 > Thanks,
 > Frank
 >
 > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
 > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
 >
 >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
 >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please
 consider
 >> the amount of space
 >> held by:
 >>
 >> Non-LIRs (end users):
 >> Hewlett Packard
 >> Apple Computer
 >>
 >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
 >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
 >>
 >> LIRs:
 >> XFINITY/Comcast
 >> Verizon
 >> Akamai
 >> XO Communications
 >> Amazon
 >> Microsoft
 >> Google
 >> etc.
 >>
 >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
 >> above organizations.
 >>
 >> Owen
 >>
 >>
 >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >>> >>> > wrote:
 >>>
 >>> Hi Ronald
 >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
 >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
 >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
 >>>
 >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
 >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
 >>>
 >>>In message
 >>><
 calm9cbn+r9oen9+9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com
 >>> calm9cbn%2br9oen9%2b9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com
 >>
 >>>Meriem Dayday >>> >>>> wrote:
 >>>
  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
 >>>
 >>>No, actually, it isn't.
 >>>
 >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making
 use of
 >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
 >>>effectively
 >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
 >>>number of
 >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net ,
 etc.)
 >>>
 >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider
 it an
 >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through
 the
 >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then
 what
 >>>is next?  Book burning?
 >>>
  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
 >>>consent is a
  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
  concerned person.
 >>>
 >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
 >>>obvious
 >>>logical problems.
 >>>
 >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about
 what
 >>>various
 >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to
 learn,
 >>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is
 the
 >>>nature
 >>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private
 intranet,
 >>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every
 last
 >>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Paschal Ochang]

This thread is not open according to the mail below. Unless as usual you
want the whole community to ignore calls for regard of authority and go
down the lane of non moderation of discussions.

On Monday, July 26, 2021, AFRINIC Communication  wrote:

> Dear Colleagues,
>
> We kindly ask you all to refrain from continuing with this thread as it
> seems to be mostly geared towards personal attacks.
>
> Regardless of the motive, AFRINIC may be forced to issue warnings to those
> who do not comply and choose to ignore this message.
>
> Also please refer to the email sent this morning on the AFRINIC Code of
> Conduct:
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/
> 2021-July/004278.html
>
> Regards
> AFRINIC Communications
>
> ……
>
>
> Chers collègues,
>
> Nous vous invitons à vous abstenir de poursuivre ce fil de discussion, car
> il semble être principalement orienté vers des attaques personnelles.
>
> Quel qu'en soit le motif, l'AFRINIC pourrait être contrainte d'émettre des
> avertissements à ceux qui ne se conforment pas et choisissent d'ignorer ce
> message.
>
> Veuillez également vous référer à l'email que nous avons envoyé ce matin
> sur le code de conduite de l'AFRINIC : https://lists.afrinic.net/
> pipermail/community-discuss/2021-July/004278.html
>
> Cordialement,
> AFRINIC Communications
>
>
> On 26 Jul 2021, at 15:39, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
>
> Dear Leo S,
>
> You are churning out awesome figures here, unarguably so. However, I wish
> you can spare some time to responded to my question on motive.
> While this is all now glaring, it is important to know if you are here
> shedding light, providing heat, or fanning smokes into our eyes?
> You seem to be baiting the community with your posts. *"This is good news
> for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the IP address for the
> end user."*
>
>
> *Regards,*
>
> *Anthony*
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:01 AM Leo S  wrote:
>
>> These addresses are worth more than 100 million US dollars. If the
>> address is revoked. For them, they will face a loss of 90% of their income
>> Forced to close business. They will go all out, For Cloud Innovation Ltd,
>> this is more than 100 million US dollars in cash. For AFRINIC it's a mere
>> $10,000 USD. Actions that can be taken in the face of such a large amount
>> of money so I think AFRINIC may fail finally or compromise.
>>
>> This is good news for ISPs who rent IP from them, No need to change the
>> IP address for the end user.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 11:30 AM Ibeanusi Elvis 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> This is information of whatever anyone might choose to call it from Leo,
>>> shades no light to present discussion at hand.
>>> To me, this is a clear defamation and personal attack to this "Lu Heng”
>>> guy.
>>> This is a clear violation of the Code of Conduct and there should be no
>>> question whether this is a personal attack or not.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Elvis.
>>>
>>> > On Jul 26, 2021, at 11:04, Ronald F. Guilmette 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > In message >> bbikscx5wocg...@mail.gmail.com>
>>> > Wijdane Goubi  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> *He also plundered tens of thousands of IP addresses from RIPE and A
>>> few
>>> >> years later sold to vodafone and earned millions of dollars. He is
>>> smart
>>> >> and knows who should pay the money to.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Leo's statement here hints that this guy called Lu Heng has engaged
>>> in
>>> >> some sort of bribing. How is this not personal attack defamation?
>>> >
>>> > I am forced to agree that Leo's second sentence, as quoted above,
>>> contitutes
>>> > "casting aspersions" and in the absence of hard supporting evidence it
>>> was
>>> > inappropriate, uncalled for, and contributed only heat and no light to
>>> > the present discussion.
>>> >
>>> > I made the exact same sort of mistake myself, right here on this
>>> mailing
>>> > list, back in 2016, and later publicly apologized for that.  Perhaps
>>> that
>>> > explains why I am less inclined that others to make a huge issue out of
>>> > such utterances when they are made in the heat of the moment and
>>> without
>>> > adequate thought.
>>> >
>>> > I think that it should be sufficient to politely ask Leo to retract
>>> that
>>> > one sentence, to apologize, and then let it go at that.  We already
>>> have
>>> > more than enough wars to fight, tribal and otherwise, and we shouldn't
>>> be
>>> > looking for reasons to start up new ones just based on this or that
>>> > ill-considered statement that may be made by any of us during those
>>> times
>>> > when our passions override our reason.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> > rfg
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ___
>>> > Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>>> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>>> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>>> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Murungi Daniel via Community-Discuss]

Dear Ubah,

I see you are at it again with gas lighting and insinuations. The thread is 
still open and clearly community members still have input. 

@Lili Au, please do not get intimidated by bogus open ended questions. Kindly 
share with the community whatever information you feel is pertinent to the 
discussion at hand.


Regards,
Murungi Daniel 

> On Jul 27, 2021, at 3:20 PM, Antone Ubah  wrote:
> 
> Oh Noah,
> 
> 'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your stakes?
> There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If 
> anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the 
> appropriate channels?
> 
> 
> Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up 
> characters to incite friction.樂
> 
> Then again, what are your stakes?
> 
> 
> Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it 
> right, not for commotion sake.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Anthony
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> 
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah,  > wrote:
> Didin't co...@afrinic.net  already close this 
> thread? 
> 
> Here's another bait email trolling the community.
> 
> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of?
> 
> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread.
> 
> They only cautioned on violation of CoC.
> 
> Noah
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  > wrote:
> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a 
> Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is correct.
> 
> —
> 
> > Frank Habicht mailto:ge...@geier.ne.tz>>於2021年7月27日 
> > 15:32寫道：
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
> > our customers in Africa" ?
> > 
> > Did CI?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> > 
> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> > 
> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
> >> the amount of space
> >> held by:
> >> 
> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
> >> Hewlett Packard
> >> Apple Computer
> >> 
> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
> >> 
> >> LIRs:
> >> XFINITY/Comcast
> >> Verizon
> >> Akamai
> >> XO Communications
> >> Amazon
> >> Microsoft
> >> Google
> >> etc.
> >> 
> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
> >> above organizations.
> >> 
> >> Owen
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S  >>> 
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Hi Ronald
> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
> >>> 
> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com> 
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>In message
> >>> >>> 
> >>>  
> >>>  >>>  
> >>> >>
> >>>Meriem Dayday mailto:meriemday...@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>> 
>  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
> >>> 
> >>>No, actually, it isn't.
> >>> 
> >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of
> >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
> >>>effectively
> >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
> >>>number of
> >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net  
> >>> >, etc.)
> >>> 
> >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an
> >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
> >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then what
> >>>is next?  Book burning?
> >>> 
>  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
> >>>consent is a
>  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>  concerned person.
> >>> 
> >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
> >>>obvious
> >>>logical problems.
> >>> 
> >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
> >>>various
> >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,
> >>>without 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[AFRINIC Communication]

Dear colleagues, 

AFRINIC will be shedding some light on the developments in the legal case and 
the freezing of AFRINIC Financial Accounts soon.

We appreciate your patience.

Regards,

AFRINIC Communications



> On 27 Jul 2021, at 15:50, Anthony Ubah  wrote:
> 
> Hi Ali,
> 
> Apt. I quite agree with your view on Mauritius legal system.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:50 AM Ali Hussein  > wrote:
> I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but 
> wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and 
> AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. 
> 
> How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company 
> through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I mean 
> - ex parte is done with respect to or in the interests of one side only or of 
> an interested outside party. This is a basic tenet in law. Was Afrinic given 
> an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze its accounts 
> were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them? 
> 
> If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the 
> domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a Pan-African-based 
> organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court giving an 
> unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in favor of a 
> Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor of African IP 
> Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core business model. 
> 
> Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do this...Oooh 
> the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant in the room. 
> Everything else is a sideshow. 
> 
> 
> Ali Hussein
> Digital Transformation
> 
> Tel: +254 713 601113
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine 
> and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations 
> that I work with.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette  > wrote:
> In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com 
> >, 
> Owen DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
> 
> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
> >
> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
> >Respondent to Petitioner.
> >
> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.
> 
> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
> definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
> always right and I never lie.
> :-)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> rfg
> 
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 
> 
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net 
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss 
> 
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

___
Community-Discuss mailing list
Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Antone Ubah]

Oh Noah,

'Afraid' you say? Of what? Of whom? What are my stakes? What are your
stakes?
There is an ongoing legal process between parties involved, am I wrong? If
anyone or group has input to that, is it not right to funnel such down the
appropriate channels?


Or are you the arm behind the puppets? The grand puppeteer popping up
characters to incite friction.樂

Then again, what are your stakes?


Lili is free to air his/her/their views, however it makes sense to do it
right, not for commotion sake.


Regards,

Anthony

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021, 8:00 AM Noah  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah,  wrote:
>
>> Didin't co...@afrinic.net already close this thread?
>>
>> Here's another bait email trolling the community.
>>
>
> Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of?
>
> Comms dont have the authority to close any thread.
>
> They only cautioned on violation of CoC.
>
> Noah
>
>>
>> *Best Regards,*
>>
>> *Anthony*
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  wrote:
>>
>>> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS (
>>> a Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
>>> correct.
>>>
>>> —
>>>
>>> > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
>>> >
>>> > Hi,
>>> >
>>> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to
>>> connect
>>> > our customers in Africa" ?
>>> >
>>> > Did CI?
>>> >
>>> > Thanks,
>>> > Frank
>>> >
>>> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>>> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>>> >
>>> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>>> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please
>>> consider
>>> >> the amount of space
>>> >> held by:
>>> >>
>>> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
>>> >> Hewlett Packard
>>> >> Apple Computer
>>> >>
>>> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
>>> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
>>> >>
>>> >> LIRs:
>>> >> XFINITY/Comcast
>>> >> Verizon
>>> >> Akamai
>>> >> XO Communications
>>> >> Amazon
>>> >> Microsoft
>>> >> Google
>>> >> etc.
>>> >>
>>> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
>>> >> above organizations.
>>> >>
>>> >> Owen
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> >>> > wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi Ronald
>>> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
>>> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
>>> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
>>> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>In message
>>> >>><
>>> calm9cbn+r9oen9+9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com
>>> >> calm9cbn%2br9oen9%2b9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com>>
>>> >>>Meriem Dayday >> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>No, actually, it isn't.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making
>>> use of
>>> >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
>>> >>>effectively
>>> >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
>>> >>>number of
>>> >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net ,
>>> etc.)
>>> >>>
>>> >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider
>>> it an
>>> >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through
>>> the
>>> >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then
>>> what
>>> >>>is next?  Book burning?
>>> >>>
>>>  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
>>> >>>consent is a
>>>  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>>>  concerned person.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
>>> >>>obvious
>>> >>>logical problems.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
>>> >>>various
>>> >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to
>>> learn,
>>> >>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
>>> >>>nature
>>> >>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private
>>> intranet,
>>> >>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every
>>> last
>>> >>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
>>> >>>minute any
>>> >>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those,
>>> it
>>> >>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
>>> >>>for being
>>> >>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
>>> >>>experiment we
>>> >>>call the Internet.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>>> >>>Innovation.
>>> >>>And yet 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 14:51 Anthony Ubah,  wrote:

> Didin't co...@afrinic.net already close this thread?
>
> Here's another bait email trolling the community.
>

Let Lili Au speak. What are you afraid of?

Comms dont have the authority to close any thread.

They only cautioned on violation of CoC.

Noah

>
> *Best Regards,*
>
> *Anthony*
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  wrote:
>
>> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a
>> Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
>> correct.
>>
>> —
>>
>> > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
>> > our customers in Africa" ?
>> >
>> > Did CI?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Frank
>> >
>> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
>> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
>> >
>> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please
>> consider
>> >> the amount of space
>> >> held by:
>> >>
>> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
>> >> Hewlett Packard
>> >> Apple Computer
>> >>
>> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
>> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
>> >>
>> >> LIRs:
>> >> XFINITY/Comcast
>> >> Verizon
>> >> Akamai
>> >> XO Communications
>> >> Amazon
>> >> Microsoft
>> >> Google
>> >> etc.
>> >>
>> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
>> >> above organizations.
>> >>
>> >> Owen
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi Ronald
>> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
>> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
>> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
>> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>In message
>> >>><
>> calm9cbn+r9oen9+9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com
>> > calm9cbn%2br9oen9%2b9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com>>
>> >>>Meriem Dayday > >>>> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>> >>>
>> >>>No, actually, it isn't.
>> >>>
>> >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use
>> of
>> >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
>> >>>effectively
>> >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
>> >>>number of
>> >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net ,
>> etc.)
>> >>>
>> >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it
>> an
>> >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through
>> the
>> >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then
>> what
>> >>>is next?  Book burning?
>> >>>
>>  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
>> >>>consent is a
>>  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>>  concerned person.
>> >>>
>> >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
>> >>>obvious
>> >>>logical problems.
>> >>>
>> >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
>> >>>various
>> >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to
>> learn,
>> >>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
>> >>>nature
>> >>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private
>> intranet,
>> >>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every
>> last
>> >>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
>> >>>minute any
>> >>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those,
>> it
>> >>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
>> >>>for being
>> >>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
>> >>>experiment we
>> >>>call the Internet.
>> >>>
>> >>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>> >>>Innovation.
>> >>>And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
>> >>>that well
>> >>>more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered
>> IPv4
>> >>>address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
>> >>>a state
>> >>>secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
>> >>>public
>> >>>sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
>> >>>information.
>> >>>
>> >>>Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
>> >>>assigned number resources does or does not comport with its
>> specific
>> >>>RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate
>> question,
>> >>>and one which I myself 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Noah]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021, 12:48 Lili Au,  wrote:

> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a
> Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
> correct.
>


Lili Au

Please can you share some of those LoA from Cloud Innovation Ltd to Larus.

We will appreciate it.

Noah



> —
>
> > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
> > our customers in Africa" ?
> >
> > Did CI?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> >
> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> >
> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
> >> the amount of space
> >> held by:
> >>
> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
> >> Hewlett Packard
> >> Apple Computer
> >>
> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
> >>
> >> LIRs:
> >> XFINITY/Comcast
> >> Verizon
> >> Akamai
> >> XO Communications
> >> Amazon
> >> Microsoft
> >> Google
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
> >> above organizations.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ronald
> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>In message
> >>>  calm9cbn%2br9oen9%2b9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com>>
> >>>Meriem Dayday  >>>> wrote:
> >>>
>  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
> >>>
> >>>No, actually, it isn't.
> >>>
> >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use
> of
> >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
> >>>effectively
> >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
> >>>number of
> >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net ,
> etc.)
> >>>
> >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it
> an
> >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
> >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then
> what
> >>>is next?  Book burning?
> >>>
>  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
> >>>consent is a
>  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>  concerned person.
> >>>
> >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
> >>>obvious
> >>>logical problems.
> >>>
> >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
> >>>various
> >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to
> learn,
> >>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
> >>>nature
> >>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private
> intranet,
> >>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
> >>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
> >>>minute any
> >>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
> >>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
> >>>for being
> >>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
> >>>experiment we
> >>>call the Internet.
> >>>
> >>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
> >>>Innovation.
> >>>And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
> >>>that well
> >>>more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered
> IPv4
> >>>address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
> >>>a state
> >>>secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
> >>>public
> >>>sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
> >>>information.
> >>>
> >>>Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
> >>>assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
> >>>RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate
> question,
> >>>and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
> >>>courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine.
> >>>But the
> >>>mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned
> >>>resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the
> >>>available
> >>>public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.  Any attempt to
> portray
> >>>them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship.
> 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Anthony Ubah]

Hi Ali,

Apt. I quite agree with your view on Mauritius legal system.

*Best Regards,*

*Anthony*


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:50 AM Ali Hussein  wrote:

> I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but
> wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and
> AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law.
>
> How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company
> through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I
> mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one
> side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in
> law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders
> to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic
> ignored them?
>
> If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the
> domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a
> Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court
> giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in
> favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor
> of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core
> business model.
>
> Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do
> this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant
> in the room. Everything else is a sideshow.
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> Digital Transformation
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> 
>
>
>
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette <
> r...@tristatelogic.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com>,
>> Owen DeLong  wrote:
>>
>> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
>> >
>> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
>> >Respondent to Petitioner.
>> >
>> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.
>>
>> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
>> definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
>> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
>> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
>> always right and I never lie.
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> rfg
>>
>> ___
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>
___
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Anthony Ubah]

Didin't co...@afrinic.net already close this thread?

Here's another bait email trolling the community.

*Best Regards,*

*Anthony*


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 5:45 AM Lili Au  wrote:

> A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a
> Hong Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is
> correct.
>
> —
>
> > Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
> > our customers in Africa" ?
> >
> > Did CI?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Frank
> >
> > PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> > just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> >
> >> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> >> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
> >> the amount of space
> >> held by:
> >>
> >> Non-LIRs (end users):
> >> Hewlett Packard
> >> Apple Computer
> >>
> >> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> >> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
> >>
> >> LIRs:
> >> XFINITY/Comcast
> >> Verizon
> >> Akamai
> >> XO Communications
> >> Amazon
> >> Microsoft
> >> Google
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
> >> above organizations.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Ronald
> >>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
> >>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
> >>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
> >>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>In message
> >>>  calm9cbn%2br9oen9%2b9ybjfbk5ggtcmemz1yhxgdfw04otc3mx...@mail.gmail.com>>
> >>>Meriem Dayday  >>>> wrote:
> >>>
>  This is a direct violation of the CoC.
> >>>
> >>>No, actually, it isn't.
> >>>
> >>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use
> of
> >>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
> >>>effectively
> >>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
> >>>number of
> >>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net ,
> etc.)
> >>>
> >>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it
> an
> >>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
> >>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then
> what
> >>>is next?  Book burning?
> >>>
>  Disclosing such information and data without the company's
> >>>consent is a
>  clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>  concerned person.
> >>>
> >>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
> >>>obvious
> >>>logical problems.
> >>>
> >>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
> >>>various
> >>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to
> learn,
> >>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
> >>>nature
> >>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private
> intranet,
> >>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
> >>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
> >>>minute any
> >>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
> >>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
> >>>for being
> >>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
> >>>experiment we
> >>>call the Internet.
> >>>
> >>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
> >>>Innovation.
> >>>And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
> >>>that well
> >>>more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered
> IPv4
> >>>address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
> >>>a state
> >>>secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
> >>>public
> >>>sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
> >>>information.
> >>>
> >>>Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
> >>>assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
> >>>RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate
> question,
> >>>and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
> >>>courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine.
> >>>But the
> >>>mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned
> >>>resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the
> >>>available
> >>>public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.  Any attempt to
> portray
> >>>them as such is just an attempt at 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Alan Levin]

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:48 AM Ali Hussein  wrote:

> If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the
> domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a
> Pan-African-based organization.
>

Thanks Ali, yes agreed. I do believe that I have mentioned previously that
when we initially founded AfriNIC, the experience with actually setting up
in Mauritius, was NOT what we expected. It was "too late" to change that so
we decided to carry on. I do believe that we're going to need to reassess
not only the domicile, but the entire AfriNIC 1.0 business entity.

hth

Alan
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Ali Hussein  wrote:

>I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but
>wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and
>AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law.
>
>How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company
>through ex parte proceedings?

That is rather a serious mystery to me too.  I guess that the court was
worried... as some courts might reasonably worry in the case of some
defendants... that *if* the defendant company was given some pre-notice
of the impending freeze of its bank accounts, then the organization might
try to evade the effects of such a freeze by quickly withdrawing all of
its funds and placing those funds somewhere else.

According to the following page which describes the typical procedures as
they occur under the U.S. judicial system...

  https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/frozen-bank-accounts.html

 "Most creditors need to file a lawsuit and get a judgment against
 you before freezing your bank account. If the creditor wins the suit,
 the court issues a money judgment to the creditor. This money judgment
 serves as proof of the amount owed and protects debtors from having
 money taken that they don't owe. Once a creditor has the judgment
 against you, if you haven't taken steps to pay the judgment or agreed
 to a payment schedule for satisfying the debt, the judgment creditor
 can request that the court issue an order that directs the bank to
 freeze your account."

I believe that the procedures are the same in most civilized countries,
i.e. a party must *first* win a case and only *then* they may arrange to
have the other party's bank accounts frozen or seized.

I do not want to pre-judge the situation based on limited information, but
offhand, and based on what few facts we have, it would seem to be reasonable
to speculate that Mauritian law is different from U.S. law (and the law in
many other jurisdictions) in that Mauritian law apparently does not actually
require a party to win damages in court before a bank account of an opposing
party may be frozen.  (Whatever different rule the Mauritians are using with
respect to asset freezes, it must surely be an absolute delight for any and
all Mauritian plaintiffs!)

Whether that is the best way to run a national legal system or not is,
I suppose, in the eye of the beholder.  All I can say for sure is that at
this moment I am really quite glad that I personally do not own any bank
accounts in Mauritius.

>How else do you interpreter this? A court
>giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in
>favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor
>of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core
>business model.

I am sorry to have to correct you sir, but I believe that there is at least
one serious inaccuracy in your comment above.

To the best of my knowledge, Cloud Innovation, Ltd. is *not* "Hong Kong
based" in the sense that its home jurisdiction... the jurisdiction in
which it is actually incorporated... is, I believe, the Seychelles Islands,
not Hong Kong.

A Hong Kong based legal entity would never have qualified to become a member
of AFRINIC.  As far as I know, AFRINIC memberships have only been granted to
legal entities that are actually "domiciled" within the AFRINIC geographical
region.  (Hong Kong is quite clearly outside of that region, while the
Seychelles Islands are most definitely within the region.)

It appears that at one point in time, Cloud Innovation, Ltd. may also
have existed as a Mauritian legal entity, however the Mauritian legal
entity with that name appears to have been wound up some time ago,
which is probably just as well since, as I understand it, "international
companies" may be formed in Mauritius, even if they have only very limited
physical presence there (and pay minimal or no taxes there) however the
downside is that such "international" Mauritian companies are not allowed,
under law, to actually conduct business with -actual- Mauritian resident
companies, for example, AFRINIC.  Thus, an "offshore" company called "Cloud
Innovation, Ltd." and incorporated in the Seychelles Islands is rather
vastly superior to an offshore company called Cloud Innovation, Ltd." and
incorporated in Mauritius, at least if the company wishes/wished to transact
business with some actual Mauritian-resident company such as AFRINIC.

https://opencorporates.com/companies/mu/C115736

>Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do
>this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant
>in the room. Everything else is a sideshow.

The freezing of the bank accounts is most certainly a truly startling
development and one that would most certainly NOT have happened in the
United States, or, I expect, in most other civilized countries, at least
not prior to a full trial 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Iyedi Goma]

Slt à tous,

cette situation est inédite je ne pense pas qu un autre registre a déjà
vécu cela, c est juste dommage et triste  de voir jusqu où on est capable d
aller pour servir les intérêts.
Comment des gens qui pensent être aux services du développement d une
communauté peuvent s exalter à la mise en gèle d un compte de l
institutions qu ils prétendent défendre ?

comment la justice peut conclure même si temporaire au gèle sans préavis
sans avoir donner un droit de defense à la partie accusées.

nous devons dire non, cette agenda caché que les gens ont où il est claire
que leur unique ambition est Le démantèlement De l.afrinic  juste parcequ
ils pensent que l Afrique est une vache à.lait pour eux.

serge parfait Goma


Le mar. 27 juil. 2021 à 10:50, Ali Hussein  a écrit :

> I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but
> wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and
> AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law.
>
> How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company
> through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I
> mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one
> side only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in
> law. Was Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders
> to freeze its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic
> ignored them?
>
> If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the
> domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a
> Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court
> giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in
> favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor
> of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core
> business model.
>
> Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do
> this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant
> in the room. Everything else is a sideshow.
>
>
> *Ali Hussein*
>
> Digital Transformation
>
>
> Tel: +254 713 601113
>
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
>
> Skype: abu-jomo
>
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim
> 
>
>
>
>
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
> mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
> organizations that I work with.
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette <
> r...@tristatelogic.com> wrote:
>
>> In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com>,
>> Owen DeLong  wrote:
>>
>> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
>> >
>> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
>> >Respondent to Petitioner.
>> >
>> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.
>>
>> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
>> definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
>> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
>> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
>> always right and I never lie.
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> rfg
>>
>> ___
>> Community-Discuss mailing list
>> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
>> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Murungi Daniel via Community-Discuss]

Dear Ali,

Well stated.

Regards,
Murungi Daniel


> On Jul 27, 2021, at 12:47 PM, Ali Hussein  wrote:
> 
> I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but 
> wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and 
> AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law. 
> 
> How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company 
> through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I mean 
> - ex parte is done with respect to or in the interests of one side only or of 
> an interested outside party. This is a basic tenet in law. Was Afrinic given 
> an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze its accounts 
> were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them? 
> 
> If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the 
> domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a Pan-African-based 
> organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court giving an 
> unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in favor of a 
> Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor of African IP 
> Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core business model. 
> 
> Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do this...Oooh 
> the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant in the room. 
> Everything else is a sideshow. 
> 
> 
> Ali Hussein
> Digital Transformation
> 
> Tel: +254 713 601113
> Twitter: @AliHKassim
> Skype: abu-jomo
> LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely mine 
> and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the organizations 
> that I work with.
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette  > wrote:
> In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com 
> >, 
> Owen DeLong mailto:o...@delong.com>> wrote:
> 
> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
> >
> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
> >Respondent to Petitioner.
> >
> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.
> 
> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
> definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
> always right and I never lie.
> :-)
> 
> 
> Regards,
> rfg
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ali Hussein]

I have been following this saga for a few days now and I can't help but
wonder (And this is aside from discussing the case of Cloud Innovation and
AfriNIC) I want to address the process of Mauritian law.

How does a court in Mauritius freeze the bank accounts of another company
through ex parte proceedings? For those who might not understand what I
mean - *ex parte is **done with respect to or in the interests of one side
only or of an interested outside party. *This is a basic tenet in law. Was
Afrinic given an opportunity to defend itself before these orders to freeze
its accounts were given? Or were summons given and Afrinic ignored them?

If the former is true then maybe it's time to address the issue of the
domicility of Afrinic. Maybe Mauritius is too hostile for a
Pan-African-based organization. How else do you interpreter this? A court
giving an unprecedented ex parte ruling against an African Organization in
favor of a Hongkong-based organization who we are all clear is a purveyor
of African IP Addresses to organizations outside of Africa as its core
business model.

Let's put aside all this hullabaloo of ohh...The board didn't do
this...Oooh the board should have done this! and let's address the elephant
in the room. Everything else is a sideshow.


*Ali Hussein*

Digital Transformation


Tel: +254 713 601113

Twitter: @AliHKassim

Skype: abu-jomo

LinkedIn: http://ke.linkedin.com/in/alihkassim





Any information of a personal nature expressed in this email are purely
mine and do not necessarily reflect the official positions of the
organizations that I work with.


On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 11:31 AM Ronald F. Guilmette 
wrote:

> In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com>,
> Owen DeLong  wrote:
>
> >> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
> >
> >Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
> >Respondent to Petitioner.
> >
> >I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.
>
> Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
> definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
> with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
> I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
> always right and I never lie.
> :-)
>
>
> Regards,
> rfg
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Lili Au]

A funny discussion. Anyway, I saw many LOA that is CI authorise LARUS ( a Hong 
Kong company too) then LARUS authorise to their clients. Leo is correct.

—

> Frank Habicht 於2021年7月27日 15:32寫道：
> 
> Hi,
> 
> did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
> our customers in Africa" ?
> 
> Did CI?
> 
> Thanks,
> Frank
> 
> PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
> just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.
> 
>> On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
>> the amount of space
>> held by:
>> 
>> Non-LIRs (end users):
>> Hewlett Packard
>> Apple Computer
>> 
>> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
>> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
>> 
>> LIRs:
>> XFINITY/Comcast
>> Verizon
>> Akamai
>> XO Communications
>> Amazon
>> Microsoft
>> Google
>> etc.
>> 
>> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
>> above organizations.
>> 
>> Owen
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ronald
>>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
>>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
>>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
>>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>In message
>>>>> >
>>>Meriem Dayday >>> wrote:
>>> 
 This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>> 
>>>No, actually, it isn't.
>>> 
>>>The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of
>>>it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
>>>effectively
>>>public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
>>>number of
>>>public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , etc.)
>>> 
>>>If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an
>>>affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
>>>telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then what
>>>is next?  Book burning?
>>> 
 Disclosing such information and data without the company's
>>>consent is a
 clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
 concerned person.
>>> 
>>>OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
>>>obvious
>>>logical problems.
>>> 
>>>First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
>>>various
>>>companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,
>>>without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
>>>nature
>>>of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private intranet,
>>>then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
>>>detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
>>>minute any
>>>company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
>>>*voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
>>>for being
>>>a part of, and a participant on this great communications
>>>experiment we
>>>call the Internet.
>>> 
>>>I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>>>Innovation.
>>>And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
>>>that well
>>>more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4
>>>address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
>>>a state
>>>secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
>>>public
>>>sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
>>>information.
>>> 
>>>Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
>>>assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
>>>RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question,
>>>and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
>>>courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. 
>>>But the
>>>mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned
>>>resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the
>>>available
>>>public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.  Any attempt to portray
>>>them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship.
>>> 
>>>The second logical problem with the statement above is contained
>>>in the
>>>part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal
>>>consequences
>>>on the concerned person."
>>> 
>>>Exactly so!  If the guy who posted the material you are reacting
>>>to was
>>>willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the
>>>possibility that 

Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <9c433f54-9167-45d9-8b3c-f50998e6e...@delong.com>, 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen.
>
>Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by
>Respondent to Petitioner.
>
>I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.

Well, no offense Owen, but I also have in my posession a document that
definitively proves that you are Satan.  I would like to share that
with everyone, but my lawyer won't let me.  Until he does however
I think that everyone should just take it on faith, because I'm
always right and I never lie.
:-)


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Omo Oaiya]

> On 27 Jul 2021, at 07:54, Ronald F. Guilmette  > wrote:
> 
> 
> In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that
> there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud
> on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand.  I personally have
> no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I
> personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that
> relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance.  But to try
> to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the
> clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous.  It is silly.

It won’t be the first time we have seen this sort of behaviour from Owen.  Even 
before he became a hired gun for Cloud Innovation.  The archive abounds with 
examples for anyone who cares to look.

AFRINIC is the registry for the African region.Like Noah says, this is a 
matter of accountability and a moment in AFRINIC history.   The much-maligned 
board needs to bear this in mind and hold strong in their pursuit for equity 
and justice.

Omo






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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Frank Habicht]

Hi,

did any of those make any commitment like "we are using these to connect
our customers in Africa" ?

Did CI?

Thanks,
Frank

PS: I count connectivity to a VM hosted by CI as ok, but not leasing
just the IP to an entity without providing them any connectivity.

On 27/07/2021 08:24, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> If you think this is a shocking amount of address space, please consider
> the amount of space
> held by:
> 
> Non-LIRs (end users):
> Hewlett Packard
> Apple Computer
> 
> Unclear whether to classify as LIR or not:
> Amateur Radio (AMPR)
> 
> LIRs:
> XFINITY/Comcast
> Verizon
> Akamai
> XO Communications
> Amazon
> Microsoft
> Google
> etc.
> 
> The equivalent of 1.5 /10s (75% of a /9) is far less than any of the
> above organizations.
> 
> Owen
> 
> 
>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 01:11 , Leo S > > wrote:
>>
>> Hi Ronald
>> Maybe your number is correct, whether it is 6.3M or 7M,This is a
>> shocking number for everyone especially in 201x such a large block
>> allocated. This is not in 199x year.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2021 at 4:25 AM Ronald F. Guilmette
>> mailto:r...@tristatelogic.com>> wrote:
>>
>> In message
>> > >
>> Meriem Dayday > > wrote:
>>
>> >This is a direct violation of the CoC.
>>
>> No, actually, it isn't.
>>
>> The information about how Cloud Innovation is presently making use of
>> it's assigned 6,291,456 AFRINIC-administered IPv4 addresses is
>> effectively
>> public information, and it is not difficult to derive from any
>> number of
>> public sources (e.g. RIPEStat, bgp.he.net , etc.)
>>
>> If you lived in the time of Galileo Galilei, would you consider it an
>> affront to public decency if some people elected to look through the
>> telescope and then just describe what they saw?  And if so, then what
>> is next?  Book burning?
>>
>> >Disclosing such information and data without the company's
>> consent is a
>> >clear attempt of defamation and can have legal consequences on the
>> >concerned person.
>>
>> OK, let's parse that statement, because it conjoins two different
>> obvious
>> logical problems.
>>
>> First, the Internet is *not* a private network.  Fact's about what
>> various
>> companies are doing on the Internet are possible to see, and to learn,
>> without needing the consent of the companies inolved.  That is the
>> nature
>> of the Internet.  If you want to run your own closed private intranet,
>> then go head.  Nobody will stop you and you can then keep every last
>> detail of your corporate operations utterly secret.  But the
>> minute any
>> company obtains Internet number resources and starts using those, it
>> *voluntarily* gives up some of its corporate secrecy in exchange
>> for being
>> a part of, and a participant on this great communications
>> experiment we
>> call the Internet.
>>
>> I personally am not now, and never have been a customer of Cloud
>> Innovation.
>> And yet even well before today I already determined for myself
>> that well
>> more that 90% of Cloud Innovation's assigned AFRINIC-administered IPv4
>> address space was being deployed to other continents.  This is not
>> a state
>> secret by any means, and the information may be derived from 100%
>> public
>> sources.  Anyone clever enough to seek it out will find the same
>> information.
>>
>> Whether the manner in which Cloud Innovation is using/deploying its
>> assigned number resources does or does not comport with its specific
>> RSA and/or with community approved regulations is a separate question,
>> and one which I myself do not have an answer to.  In any case, the
>> courts will sort out those questions in due course, I imagine. 
>> But the
>> mere facts of how Cloud Innovation has deployed its AFRINIC-assigned
>> resources, or how it would appear to make money, based on the
>> available
>> public evidence, are *not* corporate secrets.  Any attempt to portray
>> them as such is just an attempt at heavy-handed censorship.
>>
>> The second logical problem with the statement above is contained
>> in the
>> part that says "... attempt of defamation and can have legal
>> consequences
>> on the concerned person."
>>
>> Exactly so!  If the guy who posted the material you are reacting
>> to was
>> willing to take the legal risk to post that material, IN SPITE OF the
>> possibility that he could, at least in theory, be sued for defamation,
>> then why are YOU worried about it?  Why should AFRINIC be worried
>> about
>> it?  Obviously, this (theoretical) possibility of a defemation lawsuit
>> is only a problem for the guy who posted the 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <750c5b12-0163-40bb-937e-3a49482d0...@delong.com>, 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>Cloud Innovation is NOT a "paper company" or a "shell corporation".

Reasonable people may resonably disagree about the exact definition of
those specific terms.

It is certainly the case that, unlike, say, Silicon Valley, or San Francisco,
or New York, or Los Angeles, or Amsterdam, or London, or even Hong Kong,
the Seychelles Islands do not enjoy a worldwide reputation as a hotbed of
innovative young Internet companies.

But of course, there are always exceptions.

It might be helpful to our understanding if either you or Lu Heng would be
so kind as to post some video or photographs of Cloud Innovation's sprawling,
expansive, well-appointed, and well-equipped NOC in the Seychelles Islands,
preferably with one of the many talented and well-trained staff networking
engineers employed there holding up a copy of that day's local Seychelles
newspaper, just so that we can verify.

>Every customer provides a needs justification that would be accepted by
>virtually any RIR they could apply to and CI is careful not to lease to
>spammers and other miscreants.

As I am sure you are aware Owen, the exact definition of "miscreant" when
it comes to online actors varies rather dramatically from place to place
across the globe.  In some places, anything goes, as long as it isn't spam.
Other places are rather less liberal.

Just to take one example, as I understand it, in Mainland China (PRC)
it is illegal to operate either online gambling web sites or online porn
web sites.

Can you state for the record, and definitively, that there are no such
web sites, written in the Chinese language and targeting PRC nationals,
that are currently hosted on any part of Cloud Innovantion's IPv4 address
space?

If not, then the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) might perhaps take issue
with your blanket assertion that there are no "miscreants" currently making
use of Cloud Innovantion's IPv4 address space.  (I myself would not, but as
a U.S. citizen I have a rather significantly different view on these things.)


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Share About Cloud Innovation Ltd and their business

[Frank Habicht]

Hi Owen,

On 27/07/2021 08:28, Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jul 26, 2021, at 04:01 , Noah > > wrote:
>> So while checking some statistics with a good friend over the weekend,
>> we just noted that actually Cloud Innovation has more IPv4 addresses
>> than East African countries of Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda and I won't
>> even bother posting for Rwanda, Burundi and South Sudan because its sad.
> 
> It also serves more end users than the population of all of those
> countries combined. What is your point?

"serves" ...?
with connectivity?
Or by "buying" IPv4 addresses one place and "selling"/leasing them
another place.

this is to me closer to speculation than the stated intention of

1. the resource we take are using in africa.
2. we are investing in africa.

which is a quote from
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2014/004161.html

and which I understand was good reason to receive IPv4 addresses.
*was*
when it was true.

Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Jul 26, 2021, at 23:32 , Ronald F. Guilmette  
> wrote:
> 
> In message <37e771a0-66f7-48a1-8e61-164af96b3...@delong.com>, 
> Owen DeLong  wrote:
> 
>> They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including 
>> sending
>> a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent to do 
>> so.
> 
> That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. 

Understandable, since as I stated, it was a private message sent by Respondent 
to Petitioner.

I am seeking approval from our legal team to provide it.

> Can you post a link to that Owen?  Perhaps what is says is not quite
> what you are suggesting it says.

Since it was an email not sent to a list, I don’t believe there is a web 
archive of it.

It does, in fact, say pretty much exactly what I am suggesting it says.

A blatant statement that they will not comply with the July 13th order until 
after they
receive the outcome of the July 15th hearing.

Feel free to ask Eddy for a copy. He is the originator of said email and I have 
no
problem with him disclosing it. If I can get permission from our legal team, 
despite
it going against my usual etiquette of not disclosing private emails, I think 
this is
a legitimate exception in the interests of transparency.


Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message , 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>> 2. https://bgp.he.net/AS328608#_prefixes
>
>This shows that Africa on Cloud carries a number of prefixes for
>Cloud Innovation as well as prefixes for a number of other
>organizations. As such, it appears that Cloud Innovation is one
>of several customers doing business with Africa On Cloud.

Come on Owen.  Who are you kidding?  The page linked to above shows that
Africa on Cloud is almost entirely dependent on Cloud Innovation for its
IP address space.

As I think you must well know, being as you are, and like me, a resident
of the U.S.A., the Republicans here in the U.S. are now trying to pretend
that the so-called "Capitol Riot" of January 6th never happened... that
is was all just a bunch of over-exuberant "tourists".  But the videos and
that visuals show clearly otherwise.

Are you going to be like the Republicans?  Are you going to ask people to
ignore the clear evidence that's in front of their eyes?

>How, exactly, does this show Africa On Cloud to be "associated" in the
>way Gregoire intended to imply?

Please stop making inferences about what you -believe- people had "intended"
to say.  If there is some doubt, then ask first before you assume.  That
way maybe this list can still contain some light and not just all heat.

It is best to try to be generous and to *not* to assume that everyone you
may have a disagreement with has a 100% black heart.

In any case, the data at the link above demonstrates quite persuasively that
there *is* some finite non-zero business relationship between Africa on Cloud
on the one hand and Cloud Innovation on the other hand.  I personally have
no idea what that relationship is, or what it may signify, and thus I
personally do not care to jump to any specific conclusion about that
relationship, or its possible significance or insignificance.  But to try
to deny that there exists -any- relationship whatsoever, in spite of the
clear evidence, is worse than disingenuous.  It is silly.


Regards,
rfg


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Re: [Community-Discuss] [members-discuss] Update on legal case

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <37e771a0-66f7-48a1-8e61-164af96b3...@delong.com>, 
Owen DeLong  wrote:

>They have knowingly and deliberately violated a court order, including sending
>a message to the Petitioner that stated their full and blatant intent to do so.

That is certainly NOT a document that I have seen. 

Can you post a link to that Owen?  Perhaps what is says is not quite
what you are suggesting it says.


Regards,
rfg

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