Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

The bylaws are plenty of evident mistakes …

 

Such as the understanding of the “community”, or use of “internet” instead of 
“Internet”, etc.

 

However the intent of 11.4 was “to resolve an urgent problem in Internet 
resources” (not issues in the PDP itself): The Board is allowed to change the 
rules (policies) with immediate effect -> this is not a Draft Policy Proposal, 
but a *pre-ratified Policy* (or if you want to say it in a different way Board 
writes a policy and immediately ratify it in the next second after they – the 
Board not the community - agree on the text).

 

The immediate effect meand immediate implementation.

 

Then, they are mandated to get the community endorsment. However the *only* way 
to get the community endorsement it is a DPP via the regular cicle. If that DPP 
fails to reach consensus, the the Board ratified and implemented policy falls, 
but whatever effect it has caused in the previous weeks/months, remain in 
effect.

 

 

Dear AfriNIC's Community, 

 

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le jeudi 5 août 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss 
 a écrit :

Hi Sylvain,

 

 

Hi Jordi, 

Thanks for replying, brother.

 

 

11.4 literally says policy not DPP.

 

 

...exact, brother! but, btw, what is the lifecycle of 

a DPP? That's my point :-/

 

It simply appears that they used inappropriate 

terms, as you can see.

 

 

Also ready 11.5, otherwise you are taking it out of context.

 

 

Ok! thanks 

 

~°~

[...]

 

11.4) Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 11.3 above, the Board may adopt 
such policies regarding the management of internet number resources where it 
considers that the same is necessary and urgent, having regard to the proper 
and responsible usage of these resources. [Amended at the 2020 AGMM]

11.5) Endorsement of the policy adopted by the Board:

i.Any policy adopted by the Board 
under the provisions of Article11.4 shall be submitted to the community for 
endorsement at the next public policy meeting.

   ii.In the event that such a policy 
submitted by the Board is not endorsed, the said policy shall not be enforced 
or implemented following its non-endorsement; however, any action taken in 
terms of the policy prior to such non-endorsement shall remain valid.

 iii. 

[...]

~°~

 

...again, i understand it as a mean to varying the 

process...and i'm ok with it. If it's appropriately 

used, it could be a useful legal tool, same as CPM 

section 3.6.

 

Now, in this context of variation of an existant 

PPD, which clearly define the lifecycle of a DPP, 

the BoD consider that they can adopt something. 

...the thing can simply not be a policy; but a DPP. 

Are you getting me? again, a policy is a state of 

a DPP which has been submitted to the PDWG, 

get discussed during at least two weeks, get 

presented and discussed during PPM, get the 

decision of the PDWG's Chairs whether it reach 

the rough consensus or back to the list. If rough 

consensus is declared, it's sent to the list for a 

last call, during at least two weeks. If the consensus remains after that, it 
appears that 

the PDWG has *adopted* that DPP. Then a  

ratification report is sent to BoD, by the PDWG's Chairs, for consideration. 
Usually, the BoD ratify, 

but, exceptions occur. A ratified DPP becomes a 

Policy, then has to be implemented no more than six months after...when 
implemented it joins the 

other Policies into the CPM.

 

...i may be wrong, but those are the lines i have 

followed to reach to that conclusion.

 

Hope this clarifies something.

 

Shalom, 

--sb.

 

 

 

 [...]

 

 



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[Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear AfriNIC's Community,

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le jeudi 5 août 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> a écrit :

> Hi Sylvain,
>
>

Hi Jordi,
Thanks for replying, brother.



> 11.4 literally says policy not DPP.
>
>

...exact, brother! but, btw, what is the lifecycle of
a DPP? That's my point :-/

It simply appears that they used inappropriate
terms, as you can see.



> Also ready 11.5, otherwise you are taking it out of context.
>
>
>
>
Ok! thanks 

~°~
[...]

11.4) Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 11.3 above, the Board may
adopt such policies regarding the management of internet number resources
where it considers that the same is necessary and urgent, having regard to
the proper and responsible usage of these resources. [Amended at the 2020
AGMM]

11.5) Endorsement of the policy adopted by the Board:

   1. Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4
   shall be submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public
   policy meeting.
   2. In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not
   endorsed, the said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following
   its non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior
   to such non-endorsement shall remain valid.
   3.

[...]
~°~

...again, i understand it as a mean to varying the
process...and i'm ok with it. If it's appropriately
used, it could be a useful legal tool, same as CPM
section 3.6.

Now, in this context of variation of an existant
PPD, which clearly define the lifecycle of a DPP,
the BoD consider that they can adopt something.
...the thing can simply not be a policy; but a DPP.
Are you getting me? again, a policy is a state of
a DPP which has been submitted to the PDWG,
get discussed during at least two weeks, get
presented and discussed during PPM, get the
decision of the PDWG's Chairs whether it reach
the rough consensus or back to the list. If rough
consensus is declared, it's sent to the list for a
last call, during at least two weeks. If the consensus remains after that,
it appears that
the PDWG has *adopted* that DPP. Then a
ratification report is sent to BoD, by the PDWG's Chairs, for
consideration. Usually, the BoD ratify,
but, exceptions occur. A ratified DPP becomes a
Policy, then has to be implemented no more than six months after...when
implemented it joins the
other Policies into the CPM.

...i may be wrong, but those are the lines i have
followed to reach to that conclusion.

Hope this clarifies something.

Shalom,
--sb.


>
>
>  [...]
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Sylvain,

11.4 literally says policy not DPP.

Also ready 11.5, otherwise you are taking it out of context.

 

 

 

Dear AfriNIC's Community, 

 

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le dimanche 1 août 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss 
 a écrit :

Hi Noah,

 

Hi Jordi,

Thanks for your email, brother.

 

 

Your interpretation on this is wrong.

 

 

...imho! it's not so clear who is wrong, though :-/

 

 

Read my detailed email a few days ago.

 

11.4 Allows the Board to define any policy regarding Internet Resources that 
they believe is urgently needed.

 

 

...no! it allows the BoD to *submit* a DPP 

(not to *ratify*), under critical circonstances. 

 

It makes a huge difference, for me :-/

 

...yes! now, the BoD has also the right to act, 

promptly in case of crisis. The BoD becomes 

more accountable, with such additional freedom.

The BoD is allowed to varying the process in 

time of crisis. They had two alternatives...they 

did it, imho.

 

It's also worth noting that PDP prevail for Policy 

Development. 

 

 

This can be implemented ASAP the Board decides. The Board MUST also send the 
policy (11.5), as a policy proposal (because is the only way the PDWG works to 
reach consensus),

 

 

...brother, it can not be a policy, but a DPP. Right?

 

 

 

 to the PDWG for endorsement in the next meeting. If the PPM doesn’t endorse 
it, then the Policy will decay, but whatever happened meanwhile, will be 
“legal” in terms of the PDP.

 

 

...it remains a DPP submitted by the BoD.

If adopted by the PDWG, it has to be ratified 

by the BoD, then implemented by the Staff 

as a new policy and finally added to the CPM.

 

 

Now the question here is:

 

 

Right now, i don't see the need for an Inter RIR 

transfer policy...too risky! as an IPv4 cost $30; 

according to nra.help :'-( adding that it's now a 

*"valuable asset" owned by resource holders*.

 

...things have changed since RFG shared the 

results of his valuable researchs.

 

Since then, it appears that AfriNIC has recovered 

a number of IPv4 blocks...part of the IPv4 which  have been, sadly, 
misappropriated are still on the 

pipe...and also, it's possible to add a maximum 

of two /11 and two /12 to the available IPv4 

regional pool soon...

 

...right now, the problem to solve seems to be: 

 

~°~

How to protect the INRs assigned to AfriNIC 

to support the growth of its service region?

 ~°~

 

Shalom,

--sb.

 

1.   From past experience in the other RIRs, implementing such Inter-RIR 
policy, takes a minimum of 6 months, probably even more (it took 12 months in 
other RIRs), because there is a need to coordinate all the RIR systems. AFRINIC 
can’t “force” other RIRs to change their own agendas and workflows to address 
all the changes “faster”. AFRINIC could be lucky and because all the other 4 
RIRs already passed by this several times, may be the process is so much 
“adjusted” and fine tunned that it may be faster.

2.   I already suggested many times the Board to do that, when I saw that 
the consensus was not achievable. They ignored that. So I don’t think they want 
to pass this now, more when there are several proposals in discussion and could 
be discussed in a PPM in a couple of months from now, the AC reconstituted, and 
the appeals resolved, etc.

3.   The Board can meanwhile, take measures so the implementation of a 
possible “system” for an Inter-RIR proposal is advanced, in hope that one way 
or the other a proposal reach consensus.

4.   All that said, I expect that if the Board decides to draft that 
proposal/policy, they make sure that there is a clear statement that ensures 
that before any transfer, there is a confirmation of the resources being 
transferred are following the existing conditions in the RSA, CPM, etc., 
otherwise.

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

[...]



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[Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear AfriNIC's Community,

Please see my comments below, inline...

Le dimanche 1 août 2021, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> a écrit :

> Hi Noah,
>
>
>
> Hi Jordi,
Thanks for your email, brother.



> Your interpretation on this is wrong.
>
>
>
>
...imho! it's not so clear who is wrong, though :-/



> Read my detailed email a few days ago.
>
>
>
> 11.4 Allows the Board to define any policy regarding Internet Resources
> that they believe is urgently needed.
>
>
>
>
...no! it allows the BoD to *submit* a DPP
(not to *ratify*), under critical circonstances.

It makes a huge difference, for me :-/

...yes! now, the BoD has also the right to act,
promptly in case of crisis. The BoD becomes
more accountable, with such additional freedom.
The BoD is allowed to varying the process in
time of crisis. They had two alternatives...they
did it, imho.

It's also worth noting that PDP prevail for Policy
Development.



> This can be implemented ASAP the Board decides. The Board MUST also send
> the policy (11.5), as a policy proposal (because is the only way the PDWG
> works to reach consensus),
>
>
>
>
...brother, it can not be a policy, but a DPP. Right?



>
>  to the PDWG for endorsement in the next meeting. If the PPM doesn’t
> endorse it, then the Policy will decay, but whatever happened meanwhile,
> will be “legal” in terms of the PDP.
>
>
>
>
...it remains a DPP submitted by the BoD.
If adopted by the PDWG, it has to be ratified
by the BoD, then implemented by the Staff
as a new policy and finally added to the CPM.



> Now the question here is:
>
>
>
>
Right now, i don't see the need for an Inter RIR
transfer policy...too risky! as an IPv4 cost $30;
according to nra.help :'-( adding that it's now a
*"valuable asset" owned by resource holders*.

...things have changed since RFG shared the
results of his valuable researchs.

Since then, it appears that AfriNIC has recovered
a number of IPv4 blocks...part of the IPv4 which  have been, sadly,
misappropriated are still on the
pipe...and also, it's possible to add a maximum
of two /11 and two /12 to the available IPv4
regional pool soon...

...right now, the problem to solve seems to be:

~°~
How to protect the INRs assigned to AfriNIC
to support the growth of its service region?
 ~°~

Shalom,
--sb.


>1. From past experience in the other RIRs, implementing such Inter-RIR
>policy, takes a minimum of 6 months, probably even more (it took 12 months
>in other RIRs), because there is a need to coordinate all the RIR systems.
>AFRINIC can’t “force” other RIRs to change their own agendas and workflows
>to address all the changes “faster”. AFRINIC could be lucky and because all
>the other 4 RIRs already passed by this several times, may be the process
>is so much “adjusted” and fine tunned that it may be faster.
>2. I already suggested many times the Board to do that, when I saw
>that the consensus was not achievable. They ignored that. So I don’t think
>they want to pass this now, more when there are several proposals in
>discussion and could be discussed in a PPM in a couple of months from now,
>the AC reconstituted, and the appeals resolved, etc.
>3. The Board can meanwhile, take measures so the implementation of a
>possible “system” for an Inter-RIR proposal is advanced, in hope that one
>way or the other a proposal reach consensus.
>4. All that said, I expect that if the Board decides to draft that
>proposal/policy, they make sure that there is a clear statement that
>ensures that before any transfer, there is a confirmation of the resources
>being transferred are following the existing conditions in the RSA, CPM,
>etc., otherwise.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> @jordipalet
>
>
>
> [...]
>
>

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message <8a4ce78b-8fc8-4f5e-9283-40ceeef91...@gmail.com>, 
Brian Sowers  wrote:

>Do you remember back in elementary school when your dad told you
>to punch the bully back or else he/she would keep bothering you?
>Same scenario.

I'm so glad you brought that up.

Who is acting like the actual bully here?  AFRINIC, or the "Seychelles"
company that has sued it for $1.8 billion dollars and that has frozen
its assets before it has even had a fair chance to speak its case?

I know which party is the bully in this case.  It's the one doing all
of these bullshit legal maneuvers and the one that is sending in a
small army of Gmail sock puppets to make it look as if they have some
actual support in the community.

Oh!  And by the way... Who are you again?  And who is signing your checks?


Regards,
rfg


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Brian Sowers]

Frank,

Cloud Innovation dropping all it lawsuits is akin to ignoring a major problem 
because it is slightly annoying for the bystanders. Tolerating a single offense 
gives the offender affirmation that it can continue to do said action. Do you 
remember back in elementary school when your dad told you to punch the bully 
back or else he/she would keep bothering you? Same scenario. Expecting the 
bully—in this case, AFRINIC Cloud Innovation— to suddenly comply and respect 
Cloud’s rights is nonsensical. Worded another way, is a corrupt police officer 
going to arrest himself? Shockingly, this has turned into a mass case of 
Stockholm Syndrome affecting the Cloud’s dissidents. Cloud is perfectly in its  
rights navigating through the legal system to maintain its defense against 
AFRINIC. I’d rather have one acute headache than a chronic one if given the 
chance. 

-Brian 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Brian Sowers]

>Moreover, a more capable registry can provide better service possibly along 
>with lower fees and even a more stable governance. With better resource 
>handling, all these benefits can be enjoyed by users. 

With the bureaucratic legal mess AFRINIC currently (and historically) finds 
itself with the courts and hung appeals, the NRO’s stability fund requiring 
unanimous RIR support, perhaps it’s just best to switch over to RIPE. As you 
said, better service…lower fees…*stable* governance. African internet has found 
itself in crisis due to AFRINIC. Sure, members are able to send posts to this 
forum via the resources AFRINIC provides, but AFRINIC gratuitously provides 
extra services such as arbitrarily shutting down memberships and creating 
uncertainty in the air about its bottom line. It’s time to revamp AFRINIC’s 
core values or simply switch to another RIR (or accept support from) that 
actually lives up to its ideals. 

-Brian




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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 23:20 , Ish Sookun  wrote:
> 
> Hi Owen,
> 
> On Sunday, 1 August 2021 21:36:55 +04 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
>> There are very few powers that be for dealing with a situation where an
>> RIR’s board and/or management run amok and contrary to the rules which
>> govern them. The NRO cannot make any significant action without the
>> unanimous consent of all 5 RIR CEOs, so the NRO has no capacity to act to
>> correct an aberrant RIR. The only actions available to correct aberrant
>> behavior by an RIRs board are the ballot box (replace the board over the
>> course of 3 years, or bring an appropriate resolution at a general members
>> meeting (annual or special)) or the legal system (courts). Unfortunately,
>> AFRINIC’s bylaws are structured such that an aberrant board is allowed to
>> block virtually any motion it doesn’t like from being placed on the agenda
>> of a general members meeting.
> 
> I see that AFRINIC has about 1,931 (as per [1]). From observation, a small 
> number of members have expressed themselves on the members list on this 
> matter. I haven't read enough expression or support for non-confidence on the 
> board on the members list.
> 
> So, what does a re-election solve here? IMHO it does not solve the current 
> issue, does not help with the case, does not guarantee members of any more 
> stability of the AFRINIC infra, but only seems like a hard hammer on a group 
> of people who already have a lot on their plate right now.

You misunderstand my statement.

I am neither advocating nor opposing such a move at this time. I am merely 
stating
the facts of what it takes to address the problem of an RIR board acting in
bad faith.

There seems to be a great deal of misinformation about some mysterious
powers that be which can somehow reign in such aberrant behavior by an
RIR board andI sought merely to correct that misinformation and clarify that
there really are very few alternatives for addressing the situation.

I agree that the immediate situation is unlikely to be resolved through the
electoral process and therefore I think you have made my point that legal
protection was the one and only primary avenue available to the aggrieved
partie(s).

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 14:25 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, 00:06 Andrew Alston,  > wrote:
> This is incorrect and in line actually with what I said - 
> 
> Nop
> 
> 
> Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4 shall be 
> submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public policy meeting.
> 
> They adopt and submit to the PDWG.

That’s exactly what Andrew said. The difference is that he stated it in the way 
it is stated in 11.5.i… His statement is a direct actual quote of the bylaws.

Read 11.4 carefully… It does empower the board to adopt the policy and command 
staff to give immediate effect to the policy. This intent is further clarified 
by 11.5.ii when it notes that “any action taken in terms of the policy prior to 
such non-endorsement shall remain valid.”

> In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, the 
> said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its 
> non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to 
> such non-endorsement shall remain valid.
> 
> AFRINIC Staff will only enforce or implement the adopted policy if and only 
> if  "we the people" aka the powerful PDWG, endorse the said policy.

This is simply not correct… You have utterly failed (as you often do) to read 
11.4 et seq. as it is plainly written:

11.4) Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 11.3 above, the Board may adopt 
such policies regarding the management of internet number resources where it 
considers that the same is necessary and urgent, having regard to the proper 
and responsible usage of these resources. [Amended at the 2020 AGMM]
11.5) Endorsement of the policy adopted by the Board:
Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4 shall be 
submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public policy meeting.
In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, the 
said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its non-endorsement; 
however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such non-endorsement 
shall remain valid.
Apologies for the difference in numbering… The subparagraphs to 11.5 are 
rightfully i and ii in the original bylaws text, but I don’t know how to coerce 
my MUA into properly changing the type of numbers in a list.

It is quite clear that 11.4 is an emergency procedure available to the board to 
create policy that must be implemented faster than is possible with complete 
community review prior to implementation.

It is clear from the following phrases:
11.4 …such policies regarding the management of INR…same is necessary and 
urgent…
11.5.ii …shall not be enforced or implemented following its non-endorsement; 
however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such non-endorsement 
shall remain valid.

If your statement were correct, there would be no need for 11.5.ii, as there 
would be no possibility of any action being taken between the board adoption 
and the non-endorsement.

So, unless you believe the bylaws were written with nonsensical statements that 
have no material effect, it is quite clear that the intent here is an emergency 
PDP similar to the emergency PDP in all other regions that the board can use to 
address urgent policy matters between policy meetings.

> 
> So dude, the wordings are carefully written.
> 
> 1. Board adopts,  PDWG endorse and finally Staff enforce/implements.
> 
> Or
> 
> 2. Board adopts, PDWG does not endorse, AFRINIC staff CAN NOT 
> enforce/implement.
> 
> Makes sense Andrew?

It does not. Because the words are, indeed, carefully written…

Board adopts, Staff enforces/implements, PDWG endorses or not (some time 
later), staff continues or stops enforcing based on PDWG outcome.


> 
> 
> 
> The board can pass a policy - valid till the next policy meeting - and if the 
> community doesn’t like it they can reverse it - in the mean time those who 
> feel the threat is to great can move in the intervening period.
> 
> 
> Lol there is no **mean time dude** 

Then please explain the need for 11.5.ii

> 
> AFRINIC staff won't enforce or implement if "we the people" don't endorse.

They will until you do or don’t endorse. That’s the clear and obvious reason 
11.5.ii exists. Do you have an alternative explanation?

> 
> 
> 
> 
> The board can - and does - have the power to implement policy valid till the 
> next of wg
> 
> 
> The board does not have the power unless "we the people" endorse.

They do temporarily. It’s a (theoretically) temporary power, but it is a power 
they have.

Indeed, a board acting in bad faith could literally pass such a policy upon the 
conclusion of the policy meeting, have staff begin enforcing it and have it 
only lapse during the next policy meeting until the board meets again to again 
pass such a policy.

I suspect this would lead to difficulty in getting re-elected and that it is an 
unlikely 

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Christian Orozco]

Isn't there anything to have doubts about? In circumstances like this, I
guess a better mindset would be to clarify that doubt. People are talking a
lot about an issue not because they just want to campaign wrong
information, but because they collectively want to find answers which they
know they deserve to know.

On a side note, thank you for pointing out the importance of the meeting on
Wednesday. That will be very important for everyone.


Regards,
Christian

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:11 AM Ronald F. Guilmette 
wrote:

> In message <
> caoacvlg0ynx5je0uakqj6c+xvvlnfhl5jqf1juxwzowtimg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Christian Orozco  wrote:
>
> >First of all, no one here wants AFRINIC to perish.
>
> I'm sorry, but you are just simply wrong about that.
>
> >Describing something as "shady" does not directly put one side into a
> >bad light, it's just that
>
> Yes, it does, and that is intentional.
>
> >If only there is an urgency to
> >inform everyone of AFRINIC's financial situation, then there will not be a
> >point of doubt at all in the first place.
>
> You and other members of "Team Cloud Innovation" are *creating* the doubt.
>
> We have seen this here in the USA also.  A few Republican politicians say
> "People have doubts about the 2020 US election" and then some talking heads
> on Fox News say "People have doubts about the 2020 US election" and then a
> few more Republican politicians say "People have doubts about the 2020 US
> election" and then some talking heads on Fox News say again "People have
> doubts about the 2020 US election".
>
> Yes!  It is true!  Some people have doubts about the 2020 US election,
> specifically because some people with clear motives CAUSED THEM to have
> some doubts.
>
> It is still all "bovine excrement".
>
> In any case, we shall know on this coming Wednesday if all of these self-
> serving claims that "The sky is falling!"[1] have any validity or if they
> were all just parts of a coordinated disinformation campaign seeking to
> sow doubt and thus stampede people, like cattle, into the false belief
> that an imminent catastrophy is looming.
>
> It isn't infectious diseases that are contagious.  So is panic and the
> poor judgements that some with that.  (And some people here seem to be
> relying on that fact.)
>
>
> Regards,
> rfg
>
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny
>
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[Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear AfriNIC's Community,

Le lundi 2 août 2021, Randy Bush  a écrit :

> >> until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid disruption to
> >> our African end users and businesses.
> >
> > ...which *African* end users? imho, your real fear seem to be the lost
> > of connectivity of the 90%, out-of-region, customer base of the LIR
> > which sued its parent-RIR and started an *INRs War* against the
> > RFC7020, against the entire Internet Number Registry System, through
> > the NRA.help project.
>
> i think they hired trump and giuliani to lie and escalate.  their
> problem is that they are lying and trying to escalate to an audience of
> internet operators who have decades of experience with a pretty stable
> system (until they illegally ripped off a lot of address space and got
> caught).
>
> as with trump, ignore the lies and escalation.  it is just designed to
> create doubt and confusion.
>
>

...well noted, with thanks, Randy :-)

Shalom,
--sb.



> randy
>


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[Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Sylvain Baya]

Dear AfriNIC's Community,

Le dim. 1 août 2021 à 10:58 AM, Paul Wollner 
a écrit :

>
> Hello community
>


Hi Paul,
Thanks for your email, brother.

...please, next time, replace community by its
plural...unless you test your *globalisation*?



> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate
> sentiments.
>


...i see!
So, you acknowledge to be wrong in your
 haste?

...please, come down, brother!


> Let me try this again:
>
> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR
>


...i would have expected that the ressource
member which caused this concern would
have been your first recommended choice :-/


should help AFRINIC (by staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core
> registration service function for the time being,
>
>
>

NRA.help | Number Richers Alliance? :-/


>
> until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid disruption to our
> African end users and businesses.
>
>
...which *African* end users? imho, your real
fear seem to be the lost of connectivity of the
90%, out-of-region, customer base of the LIR
which sued its parent-RIR and started an
*INRs War* against the RFC7020, against the
entire Internet Number Registry System, through
the NRA.help project.

Shalom,
--sb.



> Regards
> Paul
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 *Paul Wollner
> >* wrote
> 
>
> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.
>
> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s
> inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its
> inability to meet its financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-
> accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Christian Orozco]

I definitely concur with the suggestion of passing a transfer policy.

It provides much autonomy which is crucial in the current circumstances.
Freedom of choice is very important especially now that the discussion has
ramped up and more uncertainties are coming from AFRINIC. It is about time
that we allow those willing to scale and assess the risks to just do so.
Right?

Moreover, a more capable registry can provide better service possibly along
with lower fees and even a more stable governance. With better resource
handling, all these benefits can be enjoyed by users. Isn't that what is
important?


Regards,
Christian

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 8:39 PM Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers
> and pass a transfer policy.
>
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile
> transfer out - problem solved.
>
> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the
> community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if
> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely
> zero risk in this approach.
>
> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other
> legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the
> current legal situation
>
> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its
> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should
> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said
> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>
> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the
> merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system
> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this
> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be
> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members
> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* Taiwo Oye 
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
> *To:* Paul Wollner 
> *Cc:* arin-discuss ; secretariat <
> secretar...@nro.net>; Community Discuss ;
> apnic-talk ; ripe-list ;
> Members Discuss 
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service
> migration to other RIRs
>
> Good day all,
>
> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has
> been watered down now).
>
> If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards
> a financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only
> right to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat.
> Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to
> save the region.
> I will like the community to see this as “option 1”.
>
> Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so
> likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to
> carry out its duties?
>
> If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members.
>
> If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the
> financial breakdown.
>
> That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward
> and have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive.
>
> On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hello community
>
> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate
> sentiments.
>
> Let me try this again:
> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC
> (by staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service
> function for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted
> to avoid disruption to our African end users and businesses.
>
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 *Paul Wollner
> >* wrote
> 
>
> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.
>
> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s
> inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its
> inability to meet its financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in orde

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Barry Macharia via Community-Discuss]

What risk ? a mad man in a market does not make the whole market mad?
Get some time and read the RSA if you read it loud and clear , thats the only 
relationship Afrinic and CL that exists, as a resource holder i will back 
Afrinic to the last minute , lets wait for the courts to decide. 

i find it rather crazy that you sue your parents for using the cane on you , 
then go back and say i want a share my inheritance 

my two cents  
Barry 

> On 2 Aug 2021, at 08:49, Brian Sowers  wrote:
> The transfer policy makes sense. AFRINIC should facilitate considerable 
> latitude and agency for resource members to determine their own risks 
> involved and whether to continue or not. Ratify the existing consensus 
> Resource Transfer Policy. 
> 
> -Brian
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Owen,

On Sunday, 1 August 2021 21:36:55 +04 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss wrote:
> There are very few powers that be for dealing with a situation where an
> RIR’s board and/or management run amok and contrary to the rules which
> govern them. The NRO cannot make any significant action without the
> unanimous consent of all 5 RIR CEOs, so the NRO has no capacity to act to
> correct an aberrant RIR. The only actions available to correct aberrant
> behavior by an RIRs board are the ballot box (replace the board over the
> course of 3 years, or bring an appropriate resolution at a general members
> meeting (annual or special)) or the legal system (courts). Unfortunately,
> AFRINIC’s bylaws are structured such that an aberrant board is allowed to
> block virtually any motion it doesn’t like from being placed on the agenda
> of a general members meeting.

I see that AFRINIC has about 1,931 (as per [1]). From observation, a small 
number of members have expressed themselves on the members list on this 
matter. I haven't read enough expression or support for non-confidence on the 
board on the members list.

So, what does a re-election solve here? IMHO it does not solve the current 
issue, does not help with the case, does not guarantee members of any more 
stability of the AFRINIC infra, but only seems like a hard hammer on a group 
of people who already have a lot on their plate right now.

Regards,

-- 
Ish Sookun

[1] https://afrinic.net/membership/list




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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Brian Sowers]

The transfer policy makes sense. AFRINIC should facilitate considerable 
latitude and agency for resource members to determine their own risks involved 
and whether to continue or not. Ratify the existing consensus Resource Transfer 
Policy. 

-Brian
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 
Christian Orozco  wrote:

>First of all, no one here wants AFRINIC to perish.

I'm sorry, but you are just simply wrong about that.

>Describing something as "shady" does not directly put one side into a
>bad light, it's just that

Yes, it does, and that is intentional.

>If only there is an urgency to
>inform everyone of AFRINIC's financial situation, then there will not be a
>point of doubt at all in the first place.

You and other members of "Team Cloud Innovation" are *creating* the doubt.

We have seen this here in the USA also.  A few Republican politicians say
"People have doubts about the 2020 US election" and then some talking heads
on Fox News say "People have doubts about the 2020 US election" and then a
few more Republican politicians say "People have doubts about the 2020 US
election" and then some talking heads on Fox News say again "People have
doubts about the 2020 US election".

Yes!  It is true!  Some people have doubts about the 2020 US election,
specifically because some people with clear motives CAUSED THEM to have
some doubts.

It is still all "bovine excrement".

In any case, we shall know on this coming Wednesday if all of these self-
serving claims that "The sky is falling!"[1] have any validity or if they
were all just parts of a coordinated disinformation campaign seeking to
sow doubt and thus stampede people, like cattle, into the false belief
that an imminent catastrophy is looming.

It isn't infectious diseases that are contagious.  So is panic and the
poor judgements that some with that.  (And some people here seem to be
relying on that fact.)


Regards,
rfg


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henny_Penny

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Noah,

 

Your interpretation on this is wrong.

 

Read my detailed email a few days ago.

 

11.4 Allows the Board to define any policy regarding Internet Resources that 
they believe is urgently needed.

 

This can be implemented ASAP the Board decides. The Board MUST also send the 
policy (11.5), as a policy proposal (because is the only way the PDWG works to 
reach consensus), to the PDWG for endorsement in the next meeting. If the PPM 
doesn’t endorse it, then the Policy will decay, but whatever happened 
meanwhile, will be “legal” in terms of the PDP.

 

Now the question here is:

 
>From past experience in the other RIRs, implementing such Inter-RIR policy, 
>takes a minimum of 6 months, probably even more (it took 12 months in other 
>RIRs), because there is a need to coordinate all the RIR systems. AFRINIC 
>can’t “force” other RIRs to change their own agendas and workflows to address 
>all the changes “faster”. AFRINIC could be lucky and because all the other 4 
>RIRs already passed by this several times, may be the process is so much 
>“adjusted” and fine tunned that it may be faster.
I already suggested many times the Board to do that, when I saw that the 
consensus was not achievable. They ignored that. So I don’t think they want to 
pass this now, more when there are several proposals in discussion and could be 
discussed in a PPM in a couple of months from now, the AC reconstituted, and 
the appeals resolved, etc.
The Board can meanwhile, take measures so the implementation of a possible 
“system” for an Inter-RIR proposal is advanced, in hope that one way or the 
other a proposal reach consensus.
All that said, I expect that if the Board decides to draft that 
proposal/policy, they make sure that there is a clear statement that ensures 
that before any transfer, there is a confirmation of the resources being 
transferred are following the existing conditions in the RSA, CPM, etc., 
otherwise.
 

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

 

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, 00:06 Andrew Alston,  
wrote:

This is incorrect and in line actually with what I said - 

 

Nop

 

 

1.  Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4 
shall be submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public policy 
meeting.

 

They adopt and submit to the PDWG.

 

1.  In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, 
the said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its 
non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such 
non-endorsement shall remain valid.

 

AFRINIC Staff will only enforce or implement the adopted policy if and only if  
"we the people" aka the powerful PDWG, endorse the said policy.

 

So dude, the wordings are carefully written.

 

1. Board adopts,  PDWG endorse and finally Staff enforce/implements.

 

Or

 

2. Board adopts, PDWG does not endorse, AFRINIC staff CAN NOT enforce/implement.

 

Makes sense Andrew?

 

 

 

The board can pass a policy - valid till the next policy meeting - and if the 
community doesn’t like it they can reverse it - in the mean time those who feel 
the threat is to great can move in the intervening period.

 

 

Lol there is no **mean time dude** 

 

AFRINIC staff won't enforce or implement if "we the people" don't endorse.

 

 

 

 

The board can - and does - have the power to implement policy valid till the 
next of wg

 

 

The board does not have the power unless "we the people" endorse.

 

Cheers

Noah

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

Not at all - I quote:

In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, the 
said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its non-endorsement;
however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such non-endorsement 
shall remain valid.

This clearly states that action can happen before the endorsement and remains 
valid - and it says shall. It be enforced or implemented *following its 
non-endorsement* - it is silent about pre-endorsement and then by implication 
states that there can be action pre pdp decision

Andrew


Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: Noah 
Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021 00:26
To: Andrew Alston
Cc: Owen DeLong; Community Discuss; Members Discuss
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs



On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, 00:06 Andrew Alston, 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:
This is incorrect and in line actually with what I said -

Nop



  1.  Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4 shall 
be submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public policy meeting.

They adopt and submit to the PDWG.


  1.  In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, 
the said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its 
non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such 
non-endorsement shall remain valid.

AFRINIC Staff will only enforce or implement the adopted policy if and only if  
"we the people" aka the powerful PDWG, endorse the said policy.

So dude, the wordings are carefully written.

1. Board adopts,  PDWG endorse and finally Staff enforce/implements.

Or

2. Board adopts, PDWG does not endorse, AFRINIC staff CAN NOT enforce/implement.

Makes sense Andrew?



The board can pass a policy - valid till the next policy meeting - and if the 
community doesn’t like it they can reverse it - in the mean time those who feel 
the threat is to great can move in the intervening period.


Lol there is no **mean time dude**

AFRINIC staff won't enforce or implement if "we the people" don't endorse.




The board can - and does - have the power to implement policy valid till the 
next of wg


The board does not have the power unless "we the people" endorse.

Cheers
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, 00:06 Andrew Alston, 
wrote:

> This is incorrect and in line actually with what I said -
>

Nop


>
>1. Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4
>shall be submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public
>policy meeting.
>
>
They adopt and submit to the PDWG.


>1. In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not
>endorsed, the said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following
>its non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior
>to such non-endorsement shall remain valid.
>
>
AFRINIC Staff will only enforce or implement the adopted policy if and only
if  "we the people" aka the powerful PDWG, endorse the said policy.

So dude, the wordings are carefully written.

1. Board adopts,  PDWG endorse and finally Staff enforce/implements.

Or

2. Board adopts, PDWG does not endorse, AFRINIC staff CAN NOT
enforce/implement.

Makes sense Andrew?



> The board can pass a policy - valid till the next policy meeting - and if
> the community doesn’t like it they can reverse it - in the mean time those
> who feel the threat is to great can move in the intervening period.
>


Lol there is no **mean time dude**

AFRINIC staff won't enforce or implement if "we the people" don't endorse.




> The board can - and does - have the power to implement policy valid till
> the next of wg
>


The board does not have the power unless "we the people" endorse.

Cheers
Noah

>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

And for clarity, no RIR (including RIPE NCC) used voting for matters that 
belong to PDP decisions.

I think there is some confusion here, may be something taken out of context, 
not sure what is the issue, but a PDP matter that is decided by consensus 
hasn’t been decided by members voting.

 

 

 

Hi Andrew,

 

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 11:30 PM Andrew Alston  
wrote:



 

> It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the 
> membership base. 

 

Can I suggest as a compromise position we then test this theory by putting the 
question of transfers  to a member vote passed or failed by simple majority?

 

Seeing that policy development is a matter of the PDWG community as CPM and 
Bylaws section 11.3),  the majority membership dont have powers to do so and I 
was teasing Owen with that 75% and since the Bylaws amendment of 2020 in 
section 11.5) i and ii, not even the board has powers anymore to enforce any 
policy without the endorsement and consensus of the PDWG community. 

 

 

This worked for ripe with rpki when they took it to a members vote outside of 
the pdp… why not here?

 

What worked in RIPE does not necessarily have to work here and we have shared 
the same sentiments with Jordi within the PDWG discussions.

 

Cheers

Noah

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

This is incorrect and in line actually with what I said -


11.4) Notwithstanding the provisions of Article 11.3 above, the Board may adopt 
such policies regarding the management of internet number resources where it 
considers that the same is necessary and urgent, having regard to the proper 
and responsible usage of these resources. [Amended at the 2020 AGMM]

11.5) Endorsement of the policy adopted by the Board:

  1.  Any policy adopted by the Board under the provisions of Article11.4 shall 
be submitted to the community for endorsement at the next public policy meeting.
  2.  In the event that such a policy submitted by the Board is not endorsed, 
the said policy shall not be enforced or implemented following its 
non-endorsement; however, any action taken in terms of the policy prior to such 
non-endorsement shall remain valid.

The board can pass a policy - valid till the next policy meeting - and if the 
community doesn’t like it they can reverse it - in the mean time those who feel 
the threat is to great can move in the intervening period.

The board can - and does - have the power to implement policy valid till the 
next of wg

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: Noah 
Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 11:48:48 PM
To: Andrew Alston 
Cc: Owen DeLong ; Community Discuss 
; Members Discuss 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs

Hi Andrew,

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 11:30 PM Andrew Alston 
mailto:andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com>> wrote:


> It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the 
> membership base.

Can I suggest as a compromise position we then test this theory by putting the 
question of transfers  to a member vote passed or failed by simple majority?

Seeing that policy development is a matter of the PDWG community as CPM and 
Bylaws section 11.3),  the majority membership dont have powers to do so and I 
was teasing Owen with that 75% and since the Bylaws amendment of 2020 in 
section 11.5) i and ii, not even the board has powers anymore to enforce any 
policy without the endorsement and consensus of the PDWG community.


This worked for ripe with rpki when they took it to a members vote outside of 
the pdp… why not here?

What worked in RIPE does not necessarily have to work here and we have shared 
the same sentiments with Jordi within the PDWG discussions.

Cheers
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Hi Owen,

 

I need to disagree with some of your points here.

 

The transfer proposal was wrongly managed by the chairs, I’m convinced that 
they did in good faith. A proposal, can’t return once and again with 
non-editorial changes to the discussion and sustain the consensus decision.

 

There is no discussion about that. An independent re-call committee decided 
that, despite the numerous warnings, the chairs continued interpreting the PDP 
in their own way.

 

Further to that, not sure to understand way, the actual chairs haven’t resent 
the proposal report to the Board because, we like it or not, reached consensus 
(according to the previous chairs decision) to the board for ratification.

 

I believe the chairs are interpreting, wrongly in my opinion, that they shall 
“hold” a proposal under appeal, until the AC takes a decision. I’m convinced, 
as other members of the community, that it is in the hands of the Board to hold 
the ratification until the appeal is resolved, not the chairs.

 

Could the chairs explain how they can interpret that they shall not send a 
proposal for ratification because it is under appeal or if they are still 
working on the report? (I understood they will finish it by end of June)

 

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 1/8/21 21:49, "Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss" 
 escribió:

 

 



On Aug 1, 2021, at 12:21 , Noah  wrote:

 

 

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:47 Owen DeLong,  wrote:

 



On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah  wrote:

 

 

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, 
 wrote:

 

Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
situation do so

- let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out - problem 
solved.

 

https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy 

 

Noah

PS: confusion of the highest order.

 

Who is confused, Noah? 

 

Andrew who penned down that failed Inbound Transfer Policy Proposal in 2016 and 
today was suggesting an Outbound transfer policy to move IPv4 space out of 
AFRINIC service region.  There is some confusion there.

 

I don’t think he’s confused, I think you fail to recognize a: the context in 
which he penned that 2016 proposal and b: the ways in which circumstances have 
changed today.

Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the board 
to merely ratify

the existing consensus RTP,

 

Says Owen who recently on Thu Jul 29 01:22:17 UTC 2021 cautioned the same 
AFRINIC board from ratifying a proposal under some appeal.

 

Yes… Difference is that there’s arguably no valid appeal standing against RTP.

 

Co-chairs declared consensus.

Appeal submitted

Co-chairs returned proposal to list for further community input.

Consensus was confirmed by the community and again confirmed by co-chairs. Thus 
this consensus declaration was not the subject of the previous appeal.

Proposal submitted to board fro ratification after second consensus call.

 



 

I refer you to the archives  
https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013651.html

 

Jordi > I’ve submitted several appeals, so I know very well that only patience 
is needed.

Owen: I would think you, of all people, would understand the need for the board 
to at least acknowledge the appeal and provide some assurance that it will not 
ratify a policy that should be under appeal.


Jordi > The Board will not be able to ratify a policy under appeal until the 
appeal is resolved. That’s it.

Owen: Normally, I would agree with you. However, in the face of recent events, 
I am unwilling to place so much faith in
this current board.

 

Is it safe to say that you Owen is equally confused.

 

Nope… But apparently I was right about you being confused. You seem to fail to 
grasp the difference in circumstance for the two policies you mention above.

 

but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate risks for members.

 

It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the 
membership base. 

 

How did you measure this 75%’s opinions? Please do tell.

 

Further, what do members have to do with policy? Policy is under the control of 
the community. Members get control of the board and the bylaws.

 

Owen

 

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

Hi Andrew,

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 11:30 PM Andrew Alston <
andrew.als...@liquidtelecom.com> wrote:

> 
>
> > It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the
> membership base.
>
> Can I suggest as a compromise position we then test this theory by putting
> the question of transfers  to a member vote passed or failed by simple
> majority?
>

Seeing that policy development is a matter of the PDWG community as CPM and
Bylaws section 11.3),  the majority membership dont have powers to do so
and I was teasing Owen with that 75% and since the Bylaws amendment of 2020
in section 11.5) i and ii, not even the board has powers anymore to enforce
any policy without the endorsement and consensus of the PDWG community.


>
> This worked for ripe with rpki when they took it to a members vote outside
> of the pdp… why not here?
>

What worked in RIPE does not necessarily have to work here and we have
shared the same sentiments with Jordi within the PDWG discussions.

Cheers
Noah

>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Omo Oaiya]

> On 1 Aug 2021, at 20:49, Lamiaa Chnayti  wrote:
> 
> Attention Noah: I take note of your constant obsession with Larus, but 
> seriously man, are you in some way related to them or a stakeholder in 
> something against them? Just wondering since this obsession of yours seems 
> very personal..
> 


It is not just Noah.   We all know Larus = Cloud Innovation = Owen Delong = Lu 
Heng and all the others scrambling for the scraps.

Omo




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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee?lang=en#appeals

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 22:46 Owen DeLong,  wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 1, 2021, at 12:21 , Noah  wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:47 Owen DeLong,  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah  wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, <
>> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
>>> situation do so
>>>
>> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out -
>>> problem solved.
>>>
>>
>> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy
>>
>> Noah
>> PS: confusion of the highest order.
>>
>>
>> Who is confused, Noah?
>>
>
> Andrew who penned down that failed Inbound Transfer Policy Proposal in
> 2016 and today was suggesting an Outbound transfer policy to move IPv4
> space out of AFRINIC service region.  There is some confusion there.
>
>
> I don’t think he’s confused, I think you fail to recognize a: the context
> in which he penned that 2016 proposal and b: the ways in which
> circumstances have changed today.
>

Circumstances require the AFRINIC service region to be more conservative.
If anything, Andrew should bring back his proposal for Inbound Transfers.

In your case, you want to force through a resource transfer policy so that
your employer Larus can transfer resources out.  *#dangayatoto *



> Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the
>> board to merely ratify
>> the existing consensus RTP,
>>
>
> Says Owen who recently on *Thu Jul 29 01:22:17 UTC 2021* cautioned the
> same AFRINIC board from ratifying a proposal under some appeal.
>
>
> Yes… Difference is that there’s arguably no valid appeal standing against
> RTP.
>
> Co-chairs declared consensus.
>

In an erroneous manner.


> Appeal submitted
>

The submitted appeals against that proposal remain open pending hearing by
an AC review.

https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee?lang=en#appeals

*1st pending appeal against DPP *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04
https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/policy/appeal-consensus-ressource-transfer-policy-updated-20102020.pdf

*2nd pending appeal against DPP *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04
https://afrinic.net/ast/pdf/policy/afrinic-appeal-resource-transfer-policy.pdf



> Co-chairs returned proposal to list for further community input.
>

The PDP after the last call, requires disputed proposals to be sent back to
the list for further discussions until the next PPM.  There was no
emergency and the proposal had so many valid objections that remain
unaddressed today.

Consensus was confirmed by the community and again confirmed by co-chairs.
>

Which community?  or mean your echo-chamber.


> Thus this consensus declaration was not the subject of the previous appeal.
>

I refer you to the above links that are pending appeals and can also see

https://afrinic.net/policy/appeal-committee?lang=en#appeals


> Proposal submitted to board fro ratification after second consensus call.
>

You can twist it however you like but as long as the PDWG has disputed the
ex Co-chairs decision as per the PDP process and the very proposal remains
with valid objections yet to be addressed, the resource transfer proposal
never reached consensus and is under appeals.


>
>
>
> I refer you to the archives  
> *https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013651.html
> *
>
> *Jordi* >* I’ve submitted several appeals, so I know very well that only
> patience is needed.*
> *Owen*: I would think you, of all people, would understand the need for
> the board to at least acknowledge the appeal and provide some assurance
> that it will not ratify a policy that should be under appeal.
>
> *Jordi* >* The Board will not be able to ratify a policy under appeal
> until the appeal is resolved. That’s it.*
> *Owen*: Normally, I would agree with you. However, in the face of recent
> events, I am unwilling to place so much faith in
> this current board.
>
> Is it safe to say that you Owen is equally confused.
>
>
> Nope… But apparently I was right about you being confused. You seem to
> fail to grasp the difference in circumstance for the two policies you
> mention above.
>

You really like to twist things around to suit your liking. You are calling
for the *ratification* of a resource transfer proposal which is under two
pending appeals and at the same time you are calling for the
*non-ratification* of an RPKI AS0 proposal which is under some appeal.


>
> but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate risks for members.
>>
>
> It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the
> membership base.
>
>
> How did you measure this 75%’s opinions? Please do tell.
>

If you didn't get it,... it's immaterial.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

> It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the 
> membership base.

Can I suggest as a compromise position we then test this theory by putting the 
question of transfers  to a member vote passed or failed by simple majority?

This worked for ripe with rpki when they took it to a members vote outside of 
the pdp… why not here?

Andrew

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 22:50 Lamiaa Chnayti,  wrote:

> Attention Noah: I take note of your constant obsession with Larus, but
> seriously man, are you in some way related to them
>

Nop but you do based on public records.

or a stakeholder in something against them?
>
Just wondering since this obsession of yours seems very personal.
>

In 2008 during the AFRINIC meeting in Rabat Morocco, the issue of IPv4
leasing and trading was under discussion.

The consensus of the community was that, we don't support such an Idea and
I stood in the floor of that PPM meeting and vehemently condemned the idea.

LIR based on need, request for IPv4, sign an RSA and go about numbering
infrastructure across Africa using the IPv4 integers for Africas digital
transformation.

This was in 2008. So my consitent position on the matter predates your
Larus Ltd.

Cheers
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

Attention Noah: I take note of your constant obsession with Larus, but
seriously man, are you in some way related to them or a stakeholder in
something against them? Just wondering since this obsession of yours seems
very personal..

Also, allow me to remind you that the board you are referring to is the
same board that interfered in the appeals by pressuring its committee
members to resign, which was probably due to the outcome of the appeals
that didn’t align with what they wanted. This is why a year later, there
are still appeals that appear to be stuck in time "comme par hasard".

Back to Paul’s suggestion, I strongly believe the African Internet can do
much much better than find itself in jeopardy because of the (easily
avoidable) problems caused by AFRINIC

Le dim. 1 août 2021 à 19:49, Noah  a écrit :

> Attention: Lamiaa , Malupa, Joshua, Yas, Elvis, ... I take note of your
> echos and allow me to remind you all that...
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 21:09 Ibeanusi Elvis,  wrote:
>
>>
>> This transfer policy has reached a consensus and
>>
>
> The PDWG disputed the declaration of the said consensus by submitting to
> the Appeal Committee two separate appeals against the self-serving resource
> transfer policy.
>
>
> implementing it by the board would be an efficient route to take.
>>
>
> The board has a fiduciary duty to protect AFRINIC from dangerous
> self-serving policies which are sponsored by brokers like Larus Limited.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
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>
-- 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 12:21 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:47 Owen DeLong,  > wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah mailto:n...@neo.co.tz>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, 
>> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
>> situation do so
>> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out - problem 
>> solved.
>> 
>> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy 
>>  
>> 
>> Noah
>> PS: confusion of the highest order.
> 
> Who is confused, Noah? 
> 
> Andrew who penned down that failed Inbound Transfer Policy Proposal in 2016 
> and today was suggesting an Outbound transfer policy to move IPv4 space out 
> of AFRINIC service region.  There is some confusion there.

I don’t think he’s confused, I think you fail to recognize a: the context in 
which he penned that 2016 proposal and b: the ways in which circumstances have 
changed today.
> Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the 
> board to merely ratify
> the existing consensus RTP,
> 
> Says Owen who recently on Thu Jul 29 01:22:17 UTC 2021 cautioned the same 
> AFRINIC board from ratifying a proposal under some appeal.

Yes… Difference is that there’s arguably no valid appeal standing against RTP.

Co-chairs declared consensus.
Appeal submitted
Co-chairs returned proposal to list for further community input.
Consensus was confirmed by the community and again confirmed by co-chairs. Thus 
this consensus declaration was not the subject of the previous appeal.
Proposal submitted to board fro ratification after second consensus call.


> 
> I refer you to the archives  
> https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013651.html 
> 
> 
> Jordi > I’ve submitted several appeals, so I know very well that only 
> patience is needed.
> Owen: I would think you, of all people, would understand the need for the 
> board to at least acknowledge the appeal and provide some assurance that it 
> will not ratify a policy that should be under appeal.
> 
> Jordi > The Board will not be able to ratify a policy under appeal until the 
> appeal is resolved. That’s it.
> Owen: Normally, I would agree with you. However, in the face of recent 
> events, I am unwilling to place so much faith in
> this current board.
> 
> Is it safe to say that you Owen is equally confused.

Nope… But apparently I was right about you being confused. You seem to fail to 
grasp the difference in circumstance for the two policies you mention above.

> but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate risks for members.
> 
> It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the 
> membership base. 

How did you measure this 75%’s opinions? Please do tell.

Further, what do members have to do with policy? Policy is under the control of 
the community. Members get control of the board and the bylaws.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 20:47 Owen DeLong,  wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah  wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
>> situation do so
>>
> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out -
>> problem solved.
>>
>
> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy
>
> Noah
> PS: confusion of the highest order.
>
>
> Who is confused, Noah?
>

Andrew who penned down that failed Inbound Transfer Policy Proposal in 2016
and today was suggesting an Outbound transfer policy to move IPv4 space out
of AFRINIC service region.  There is some confusion there.

You?
>

Nop


> Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the
> board to merely ratify
> the existing consensus RTP,
>

Says Owen who recently on *Thu Jul 29 01:22:17 UTC 2021* cautioned the same
AFRINIC board from ratifying a proposal under some appeal.

I refer you to the archives
*https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2021/013651.html
*

*Jordi* >* I’ve submitted several appeals, so I know very well that only
patience is needed.*
*Owen*: I would think you, of all people, would understand the need for the
board to at least acknowledge the appeal and provide some assurance that it
will not ratify a policy that should be under appeal.

*Jordi* >* The Board will not be able to ratify a policy under appeal until
the appeal is resolved. That’s it.*
*Owen*: Normally, I would agree with you. However, in the face of recent
events, I am unwilling to place so much faith in
this current board.

Is it safe to say that you Owen is equally confused.

but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate risks for members.
>

It remains Andrew's personal opinion and not the consensus of 75% of the
membership base.

Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

Attention: Lamiaa , Malupa, Joshua, Yas, Elvis, ... I take note of your
echos and allow me to remind you all that...
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 21:09 Ibeanusi Elvis,  wrote:

>
> This transfer policy has reached a consensus and
>

The PDWG disputed the declaration of the said consensus by submitting to
the Appeal Committee two separate appeals against the self-serving resource
transfer policy.


implementing it by the board would be an efficient route to take.
>

The board has a fiduciary duty to protect AFRINIC from dangerous
self-serving policies which are sponsored by brokers like Larus Limited.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Frank Habicht]

On 01/08/2021 20:54, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 2021, at 08:27 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
>> I think Cloud Innovation dropping all lawsuits would have the same
>> effect, and that is the way I would like to suggest.
> 
> OK, for the sake of argument, what would you have AFRINIC do to ensure the 
> protection of Cloud Innovations rights in that process?
> 
> Unless and until there is some willingness on the other side to address the 
> issues that created the need for the lawsuits, why would
> Cloud Innovation surrender its rights and the damage it has suffered at the 
> hands of AFRINIC’s misdeeds?

I'm still not convinced that CI had the right to lease out the space.
That's where we differ.
And I believe that we agree in the fact that it's not (any more) for us
or this mailing list to determine this.

Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ibeanusi Elvis]

Hello community,

The idea of implementing the resource transfer policy not only gives the
resource members the right to choose but it protects them from the risk of
being entangled in the situations that the AFRINIC has found themselves in.
This transfer policy has reached a consensus and implementing it by the
board would be an efficient route to take. The internet is globally and
having this resource transfer policy makes definite sense. On the other
hand, I see no reason to initiate the emergency policy.

Best,
Elvis.

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 2:49 Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

>
>
> On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah  wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
>> situation do so
>>
> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out -
>> problem solved.
>>
>
> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy
>
> Noah
> PS: confusion of the highest order.
>
>
> Who is confused, Noah? You?
>
> That proposal (from 5 years ago) was submitted to compare/contrast and
> provide the community with
> alternatives along side a proposal that supported bidirectional transfers.
> Both policies failed back then
> and it was interesting because both failed due to the continuing conflict
> between a faction that felt
> that there was no validity to a unidirectional policy (many other RIRs
> would not engage in transfers
> to a region with a unidirectional policy) and a faction that continues to
> argue for regional
> protectionism in a global economy and a global internet.
>
> The faction that insisted on protectionism was able to kill the
> bidirectional policy and the faction
> that rejected protectionism in the interests of being able to trade
> globally and participate as equal
> citizens in the world market was able to kill the unidirectional policy.
>
> So now, 5 years later, here we are again and it seems we have consensus on
> a bidirectional
> policy that the board has yet to ratify, and, we have Andrew calling for
> the board to pass an
> emergency outbound policy to mitigate risks to members.
>
> Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the
> board to merely ratify
> the existing consensus RTP, but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate
> risks for members.
>
> The question now is whether the board will live up to its duties or once
> again create a fact
> pattern likely to be viewed unfavorably by the courts.
>
> Owen
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 08:27 , Frank Habicht  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On 01/08/2021 17:54, Thizwilondi Malupa wrote:
>> Hi Robert , 
>> 
>> I think Andrew made a very good point, despite your argument that he is
>> pushing for the  transfer  policy for some other reasons. Passing a
>> transfer policy would  by all means reduce the risk of having AFRINIC
>> badly affected entirely , including this community  .
> 
> I think Cloud Innovation dropping all lawsuits would have the same
> effect, and that is the way I would like to suggest.

OK, for the sake of argument, what would you have AFRINIC do to ensure the 
protection of Cloud Innovations rights in that process?

Unless and until there is some willingness on the other side to address the 
issues that created the need for the lawsuits, why would
Cloud Innovation surrender its rights and the damage it has suffered at the 
hands of AFRINIC’s misdeeds?

Owen


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 06:06 , Noah  wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, 
> mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:
> 
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
> situation do so
> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out - problem 
> solved.
> 
> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy 
>  
> 
> Noah
> PS: confusion of the highest order.

Who is confused, Noah? You?

That proposal (from 5 years ago) was submitted to compare/contrast and provide 
the community with
alternatives along side a proposal that supported bidirectional transfers. Both 
policies failed back then
and it was interesting because both failed due to the continuing conflict 
between a faction that felt
that there was no validity to a unidirectional policy (many other RIRs would 
not engage in transfers
to a region with a unidirectional policy) and a faction that continues to argue 
for regional
protectionism in a global economy and a global internet.

The faction that insisted on protectionism was able to kill the bidirectional 
policy and the faction
that rejected protectionism in the interests of being able to trade globally 
and participate as equal
citizens in the world market was able to kill the unidirectional policy.

So now, 5 years later, here we are again and it seems we have consensus on a 
bidirectional
policy that the board has yet to ratify, and, we have Andrew calling for the 
board to pass an
emergency outbound policy to mitigate risks to members.

Personally, I think the simpler and more expedient thing would be for the board 
to merely ratify
the existing consensus RTP, but Andrew’s suggestion could also mitigate risks 
for members.

The question now is whether the board will live up to its duties or once again 
create a fact
pattern likely to be viewed unfavorably by the courts.

Owen

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Owen DeLong via Community-Discuss]

Unfortunately, the problem here is the definition of “powers that be”…

There are very few powers that be for dealing with a situation where an RIR’s 
board and/or management
run amok and contrary to the rules which govern them. The NRO cannot make any 
significant action
without the unanimous consent of all 5 RIR CEOs, so the NRO has no capacity to 
act to correct an
aberrant RIR. The only actions available to correct aberrant behavior by an 
RIRs board are the
ballot box (replace the board over the course of 3 years, or bring an 
appropriate resolution at a
general members meeting (annual or special)) or the legal system (courts). 
Unfortunately, AFRINIC’s
bylaws are structured such that an aberrant board is allowed to block virtually 
any motion it doesn’t
like from being placed on the agenda of a general members meeting.

Relevant text from the bylaws:
7.2)  <>Subject to Articles 7.4 and 7.5 below, Members shall be entitled: 
by majority vote on the day of each Annual General Members’ Meeting, to elect 
the Directors of the Company in accordance with Article 13.5 below; and 
at each Annual General Members’ Meeting, to discuss and comment on the general 
policies of the Company on such issues and for such a time as shall be 
reasonably allowed by the chairperson of the Annual General Members’ Meeting. 
[Amended at the 2020 AGMM]
7.3) For the avoidance of doubt, Article 7.2 shall be without prejudice to any 
contractual rights of Resource Members in any agreement with the Company.

(7.2.2 allows the chairperson to essentially control what makes it on to the 
agenda)

The board has abused this power in the past to prevent resolutions seeking to 
remove board
members from office from being acted upon at AGMMs, so there is no reason to 
believe that
such a motion would receive due process now.

That leaves the courts as the only currently viable alternative in terms of 
“powers that be”
that can hold an RIR accountable or responsible for its misdeeds.

While people often mistake ICANN for some form of authority, the reality is 
that for number
resources, ICANN is a puppet at the end of the strings pulled by the NRO (which 
acts in the
role of ICANN ASO). The IANA functions contract for number resources (IPv4/IPv6 
addresses
and ASNs) is awarded by an "empowered community" that, for all practical 
purposes boils
down to the NRO. (it’s different for each sub-area, such as IETF secretariat 
role and
domain name role now, but this is how it works for number resources).

ICANN/PTI is the current contractor supplying the IANA functions for number 
resources
(I still can’t entirely decipher where PTI begins or where ICANN ends or how 
that whole
entanglement is managed, but for all practical purposes, they seem to act as 
one and the
same). Their policies for administering that contract come through the defined 
global
policy process of the ASO AC, which amounts to passing an identical (or nearly 
so)
policy in all 5 RIRs through each of their PDPs and then forwarding those to the
ASO AC for consideration as a global policy, which then needs to be ratified by 
the
ICANN board. ICANN has no ability to change policies outside of that process and
has no authority over RIRs whatsoever other than its ability to accredit new 
RIRs
under ICP-2 which is at least difficult, if not impossible without the unanimous
consent of the NRO EC.

I will also note, for the sake of completeness, that the NRO so far has not 
announced any
approval, disbursement, or activation of the NRO stability fund. The only 
reference to
said fund in the context of these events by the RIRs has been Eddy’s mention of 
it
as a resource to handle this crisis and clarification by various RIRs that the 
stability
fund is not a blank check obligation and cannot be used outside of unanimous 
consent
of the NRO-EC (5 RIR CEOs).

Owen


> On Jul 31, 2021, at 19:49 , Brian Sowers  wrote:
> 
> The effect from the NRO activating their stability fund for AFRINIC’s behalf 
> will be twofold. First, it will certainly alleviate—in a disclosed and stable 
> manner—AFRINIC’s financial shortcomings to allow for it to continue 
> operations. Second, the call for help from NRO certainly draws more attention 
> to AFRINIC’s current shady financial situation. A look at AFRINIC’s books 
> will quite possibly unveil what the ‘alternate means of funding’ were. At 
> that point, it is up to the discretion of the powers that be what happens 
> then. Like many in this thread, my wish is that AFRINIC’s shady dealings by 
> its leadership get exposed for the community’s betterment. 
> 
> -Brian
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Frank Habicht]

Hi,

first the part from the end that prompted me to respond...

>   In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this
> list to be nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work -
   - how dare you use the singular
I expected 2 lists, but then saw many more (which I'm not subscribed
to). And I've seen where this was introduced - Thanks Paul!


On 01/08/2021 15:38, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss wrote:
> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers
> and pass a transfer policy.

One version to achieve that result already exists, though in 2 steps:
- get new IPs elsewhere - [1]
- return your current resources to AfriNIC
  It's possible, I've done that.


> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which
> the community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and
> if AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is
> absolutely zero risk in this approach.

After all the good things certain members have done, the board really
should consider returning a favour or two.


> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of
> other legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed
> from the current legal situation

If memory serves me right, while you were on the board you were talking
about "fiduciary duty" and that's when i first heard the expression.


> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its
> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - 

.. in my humble opinion the risk is brought by the initiator of the
legal proceedings.
And yes, I also have this minor disagreement with Owen that leasing
space was permitted - or not. And I agree we let someone else conclude this.

Frank

[1]
seems my google-foo is with me today:
https://www.ripe.net/manage-ips-and-asns/resource-transfers-and-mergers/brokers
https://www.arin.net/resources/registry/transfers/stls/registered_facilitators/
https://www.apnic.net/manage-ip/manage-resources/transfer-resources/transfer-of-unused-ip-and-as-numbers/transfer-facilitators/



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Yas Houssain]

+1 Joshua

Regards,
Houssain Yas

Le dim. 1 août 2021 à 16:30, Erick Joshua Lagon  a
écrit :

> The implementation of the resource transfer policy (
> https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-003-d4#details) would
> enable AFRINIC to reduce the risks in case their situation goes sideways.
> However, I do not agree with an emergency policy when a transfer policy is
> awaiting implementation. They should focus on that transfer policy
> implementation because it is the right thing to do now.
>
> Regards,
> Erick
>
> On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 10:55 PM Thizwilondi Malupa 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Robert ,
>>
>> I think Andrew made a very good point, despite your argument that he is
>> pushing for the  transfer  policy for some other reasons. Passing a
>> transfer policy would  by all means reduce the risk of having AFRINIC badly
>> affected entirely , including this community  . And I think if we have a
>> transfer policy in place it will also be good for future challenges. But
>> not that it will always be a solution to look at during a crisis , but it
>> will be helpful to have it  in case it needs to be used .  I suggest you
>> look at it in a way where you put the interest of the future of the
>> AFRINIC  mind.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ishmael
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 3:50 PM robert ford via Community-Discuss <
>> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Typical of Andrew about transfer of rights. He clearly knows what he
>>> would use such transfer policy for.
>>>
>>> Glad rightful thinking members of African Internet community understand
>>> the baits
>>>
>>> RF
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 1 Aug 2021, at 15:44, Lamiaa Chnayti  wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> It makes absolute sense to pass a resource transfer policy that gives
>>> the resource members the option of not getting dragged along the risky mess
>>> AFRINIC is putting them through.
>>>
>>> But I don’t see the necessity of passing an emergency policy when we
>>> already have a resource transfer policy that has been discussed and has
>>> achieved consensus before, so it only makes sense that the board ratifies
>>> the *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04.*
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 13:39, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
>>> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their
>>>> powers and pass a transfer policy.
>>>>
>>>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through
>>>> this situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile
>>>> transfer out - problem solved.
>>>>
>>>> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which
>>>> the community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if
>>>> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely
>>>> zero risk in this approach.
>>>>
>>>> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of
>>>> other legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from
>>>> the current legal situation
>>>>
>>>> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of
>>>> its members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
>>>> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should
>>>> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said
>>>> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>>>>
>>>> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on
>>>> the merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system
>>>> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this
>>>> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be
>>>> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members
>>>> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>>>> --
>>>> *From:* Taiwo Oye 
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
>>>> *To:* P

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 6:33 PM Erick Joshua Lagon 
wrote:

> The implementation of the resource transfer policy (
> https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-003-d4#details) would
> enable AFRINIC to reduce the risks in case their situation goes sideways.
>

That resource transfer policy is under two appeals [1] [2] considering it
did not follow the PDP process but was rushed through by ex co-chairs in
one of the most controversial ways ever. In fact AFRINIC cautioned that
such a policy would lead to large resource members with millions of IPv4
addresses to transfer out of the region, case in point, CIL.

In the history of the AFRINIC PDP, no policy proposal has been rushed
through multiple versions in the span of 3 months like the
self-serving *resource
transfer policy*. Time is everything and we can all now witness why.



*AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04 | 5 October 2020
Changes AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT03 | 21 Sept 2020
 ChangesAFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT02 | 13 Aug 2020   Changes*
AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT01 | 30 Oct 2019

The implementation of such a dangerous resource transfer policy would
benefit *LARUS* further as per this article titled "*Gold investment
opportunities in the Information Age: IPv4 address has unlimited potential*"


Take time and read the motive here *https://www.larus.net/news/p/441
 *

Cheers,
*Noah*
1. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011753.html
2. https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/rpd/2020/011887.html
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Arnaud AMELINA]

Andrew, Andrew, Andrew,

Tu reste égal à toi même, tu changeras apparemment jamais, pour devenir un
peu plus sage.

Cette proposition ne me surprend pas du tout car tu fais partie des amis du
patron de CI, tu étais au bord quand l'autorisation de lui attribuer les
ressources supplémentaires, tu faisais partie aussi de ceux qui ont
combattu la proposition de politique sur Review, parce que cette politique
allait montrer certainement au grands jours cette magouille.

Demander de ratifier ou de mettre en place une politique de transfert pour
que ceux qui ce sentent menacer par la cabale engendrée par ton ami,
partent avec les ressources d'Afrinic vers un autre registre, c'est triste
et lamentable.

S'ils ce sentent menacer qu'ils aillent prendre leur ressources à
l'extérieur là où le transfert est permis ou, au prêt des brokers, personne
ne les blamera; mais les ressources d'Afrinic restent en Afrique n'en
déplaise à quiconque.

Celui qui n'est pas content du service d'Afrinic il peut aller voir
ailleurs. Surtout s'il n'appartient pas à la communauté internet africaine.

--
Arnaud

Le dim. 1 août 2021 à 13:14, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> a écrit :

> Hi Noah,
>
> Unfortunately an inbound transfer policy does not in any way shape or form
> mitigate the risks articulated in the TISPA, ISPA-ZA or Mauritian press
> statements by AfriNIC.
>
> It is my belief that members should be permitted to transfer away from the
> risks articulated should they feel such risk justifies such.
>
> Again - if the support is there and members do not feel such risk is
> indeed valid - such a transfer policy will impose no risk on AfriNIC - it
> will however let members make the choice of what is right for their
> respective businesses and is in the best interests of members
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* Noah 
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 4:06:29 PM
> *To:* Andrew Alston 
> *Cc:* Taiwo Oye ; Paul Wollner <
> paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net>; Community Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net>; Members Discuss <
> members-disc...@afrinic.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service
> migration to other RIRs
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
> situation do so
>
> - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out -
> problem solved.
>
>
> https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy
>
> Noah
> PS: confusion of the highest order.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Frank Habicht]

Hi,

On 01/08/2021 17:54, Thizwilondi Malupa wrote:
> Hi Robert , 
> 
> I think Andrew made a very good point, despite your argument that he is
> pushing for the  transfer  policy for some other reasons. Passing a
> transfer policy would  by all means reduce the risk of having AFRINIC
> badly affected entirely , including this community  .

I think Cloud Innovation dropping all lawsuits would have the same
effect, and that is the way I would like to suggest.


Frank

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Erick Joshua Lagon]

The implementation of the resource transfer policy (
https://www.afrinic.net/policy/proposals/2019-v4-003-d4#details) would
enable AFRINIC to reduce the risks in case their situation goes sideways.
However, I do not agree with an emergency policy when a transfer policy is
awaiting implementation. They should focus on that transfer policy
implementation because it is the right thing to do now.

Regards,
Erick

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 10:55 PM Thizwilondi Malupa 
wrote:

> Hi Robert ,
>
> I think Andrew made a very good point, despite your argument that he is
> pushing for the  transfer  policy for some other reasons. Passing a
> transfer policy would  by all means reduce the risk of having AFRINIC badly
> affected entirely , including this community  . And I think if we have a
> transfer policy in place it will also be good for future challenges. But
> not that it will always be a solution to look at during a crisis , but it
> will be helpful to have it  in case it needs to be used .  I suggest you
> look at it in a way where you put the interest of the future of the
> AFRINIC  mind.
>
> Regards,
> Ishmael
>
> On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 3:50 PM robert ford via Community-Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>> Typical of Andrew about transfer of rights. He clearly knows what he
>> would use such transfer policy for.
>>
>> Glad rightful thinking members of African Internet community understand
>> the baits
>>
>> RF
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 1 Aug 2021, at 15:44, Lamiaa Chnayti  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> It makes absolute sense to pass a resource transfer policy that gives the
>> resource members the option of not getting dragged along the risky mess
>> AFRINIC is putting them through.
>>
>> But I don’t see the necessity of passing an emergency policy when we
>> already have a resource transfer policy that has been discussed and has
>> achieved consensus before, so it only makes sense that the board ratifies
>> the *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04.*
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 13:39, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
>> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>>
>>> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers
>>> and pass a transfer policy.
>>>
>>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
>>> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile
>>> transfer out - problem solved.
>>>
>>> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which
>>> the community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if
>>> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely
>>> zero risk in this approach.
>>>
>>> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of
>>> other legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from
>>> the current legal situation
>>>
>>> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its
>>> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
>>> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should
>>> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said
>>> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>>>
>>> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on
>>> the merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system
>>> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this
>>> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be
>>> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members
>>> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>>>
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>>> --
>>> *From:* Taiwo Oye 
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
>>> *To:* Paul Wollner 
>>> *Cc:* arin-discuss ; secretariat <
>>> secretar...@nro.net>; Community Discuss ;
>>> apnic-talk ; ripe-list ;
>>> Members Discuss 
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service
>>> migration to other RIRs
>>>
>>> Good day all,
>>>
>>> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement
>>> has been watered down now).
>>>
>

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Thizwilondi Malupa]

Hi Robert ,

I think Andrew made a very good point, despite your argument that he is
pushing for the  transfer  policy for some other reasons. Passing a
transfer policy would  by all means reduce the risk of having AFRINIC badly
affected entirely , including this community  . And I think if we have a
transfer policy in place it will also be good for future challenges. But
not that it will always be a solution to look at during a crisis , but it
will be helpful to have it  in case it needs to be used .  I suggest you
look at it in a way where you put the interest of the future of the
AFRINIC  mind.

Regards,
Ishmael

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 3:50 PM robert ford via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

> Typical of Andrew about transfer of rights. He clearly knows what he would
> use such transfer policy for.
>
> Glad rightful thinking members of African Internet community understand
> the baits
>
> RF
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 1 Aug 2021, at 15:44, Lamiaa Chnayti  wrote:
>
> 
>
> It makes absolute sense to pass a resource transfer policy that gives the
> resource members the option of not getting dragged along the risky mess
> AFRINIC is putting them through.
>
> But I don’t see the necessity of passing an emergency policy when we
> already have a resource transfer policy that has been discussed and has
> achieved consensus before, so it only makes sense that the board ratifies
> the *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04.*
>
>
> Best regards,
> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
>
>
>
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 13:39, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
> community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:
>
>> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers
>> and pass a transfer policy.
>>
>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
>> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile
>> transfer out - problem solved.
>>
>> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which
>> the community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if
>> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely
>> zero risk in this approach.
>>
>> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other
>> legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the
>> current legal situation
>>
>> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its
>> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
>> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should
>> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said
>> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>>
>> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on
>> the merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system
>> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this
>> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be
>> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members
>> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>>
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> ------
>> *From:* Taiwo Oye 
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
>> *To:* Paul Wollner 
>> *Cc:* arin-discuss ; secretariat <
>> secretar...@nro.net>; Community Discuss ;
>> apnic-talk ; ripe-list ;
>> Members Discuss 
>> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service
>> migration to other RIRs
>>
>> Good day all,
>>
>> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement
>> has been watered down now).
>>
>> If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending
>> towards a financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it
>> is only right to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry
>> afloat.
>> Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to
>> save the region.
>> I will like the community to see this as “option 1”.
>>
>> Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so
>> likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to
>> carry out its duties?
>>
>> If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members.
>>
>> If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of
>> the financial breakdown.
>>
>> That being said. I think w

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[robert ford via Community-Discuss]

Typical of Andrew about transfer of rights. He clearly knows what he would use 
such transfer policy for. 

Glad rightful thinking members of African Internet community understand the 
baits 

RF

Sent from my iPhone

> On 1 Aug 2021, at 15:44, Lamiaa Chnayti  wrote:
> 
> 
> It makes absolute sense to pass a resource transfer policy that gives the 
> resource members the option of not getting dragged along the risky mess 
> AFRINIC is putting them through. 
> But I don’t see the necessity of passing an emergency policy when we already 
> have a resource transfer policy that has been discussed and has achieved 
> consensus before, so it only makes sense that the board ratifies the 
> AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04.
> 
> Best regards,
> Lamiaa CHNAYTI
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 13:39, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss 
>>  wrote:
>> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
>> pass a transfer policy.
>> 
>> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
>> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile 
>> transfer out - problem solved.
>> 
>> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the 
>> community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if 
>> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely 
>> zero risk in this approach.
>> 
>> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other 
>> legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the 
>> current legal situation
>> 
>> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its 
>> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been 
>> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should 
>> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said 
>> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>>  
>> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the 
>> merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system 
>> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this 
>> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be 
>> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members 
>> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>> 
>> 
>> Andrew  
>> 
>> Get Outlook for iOS
>> From: Taiwo Oye 
>> Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
>> To: Paul Wollner 
>> Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; 
>> Community Discuss ; apnic-talk 
>> ; ripe-list ; Members 
>> Discuss 
>> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service 
>> migration to other RIRs
>>  
>> Good day all,
>> 
>> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has 
>> been watered down now).
>> 
>> If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards a 
>> financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only 
>> right to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat. 
>> Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to 
>> save the region. 
>> I will like the community to see this as “option 1”. 
>> 
>> Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so 
>> likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to 
>> carry out its duties?
>> 
>> If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members. 
>> 
>> If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the 
>> financial breakdown. 
>> 
>> That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward and 
>> have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive. 
>> 
>>> On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello community
>>> 
>>> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate 
>>> sentiments.
>>> 
>>> Let me try this again:
>>> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
>>> staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service 
>>> function for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted 
>>> to avoid disruption to our African end users and businesses.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Paul
>>> 
>>> 
>>

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

It makes absolute sense to pass a resource transfer policy that gives the
resource members the option of not getting dragged along the risky mess
AFRINIC is putting them through.

But I don’t see the necessity of passing an emergency policy when we
already have a resource transfer policy that has been discussed and has
achieved consensus before, so it only makes sense that the board ratifies
the *AFPUB-2019-V4-003-DRAFT04.*


Best regards,
Lamiaa CHNAYTI



On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 at 13:39, Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers
> and pass a transfer policy.
>
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile
> transfer out - problem solved.
>
> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the
> community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if
> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely
> zero risk in this approach.
>
> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other
> legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the
> current legal situation
>
> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its
> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been
> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should
> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said
> risk if it is within their powers to do so
>
> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the
> merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system
> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this
> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be
> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members
> mitigate their risks as they see fit
>
>
> Andrew
>
> Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
> --
> *From:* Taiwo Oye 
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
> *To:* Paul Wollner 
> *Cc:* arin-discuss ; secretariat <
> secretar...@nro.net>; Community Discuss ;
> apnic-talk ; ripe-list ;
> Members Discuss 
> *Subject:* Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service
> migration to other RIRs
>
> Good day all,
>
> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has
> been watered down now).
>
> If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards
> a financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only
> right to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat.
> Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to
> save the region.
> I will like the community to see this as “option 1”.
>
> Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so
> likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to
> carry out its duties?
>
> If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members.
>
> If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the
> financial breakdown.
>
> That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward
> and have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive.
>
> On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner 
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Hello community
>
> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate
> sentiments.
>
> Let me try this again:
> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC
> (by staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service
> function for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted
> to avoid disruption to our African end users and businesses.
>
> Regards
> Paul
>
>
>
>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 *Paul Wollner
> >* wrote
> 
>
> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.
>
> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s
> inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its
> inability to meet its financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 16:11 Andrew Alston, 
wrote:

> Hi Noah,
>

Hi Andrew


> Unfortunately an inbound transfer policy does not in any way shape or form
> mitigate the risks articulated in the TISPA, ISPA-ZA or Mauritian press
> statements by AfriNIC.
>

My point for that link was to remind you that you Andrew authored that
proposal and it was submitted on 17 June 2016 proposing for Inbound IPv4
transfers into Africa.



> It is my belief that members should be permitted to transfer away from the
> risks articulated should they feel such risk justifies such.
>

Today 1st Aug 2021, you Andrew in your personal opinion is now calling for
members to transfer IPv4 address out of the AFRINIC region.

I am pointing out the inconsistencies in your beliefs dude.

Cheers,
Noah

>
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Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

Hi Noah,

Unfortunately an inbound transfer policy does not in any way shape or form 
mitigate the risks articulated in the TISPA, ISPA-ZA or Mauritian press 
statements by AfriNIC.

It is my belief that members should be permitted to transfer away from the 
risks articulated should they feel such risk justifies such.

Again - if the support is there and members do not feel such risk is indeed 
valid - such a transfer policy will impose no risk on AfriNIC - it will however 
let members make the choice of what is right for their respective businesses 
and is in the best interests of members

Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: Noah 
Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 4:06:29 PM
To: Andrew Alston 
Cc: Taiwo Oye ; Paul Wollner 
; Community Discuss 
; Members Discuss 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs


On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, 
mailto:community-discuss@afrinic.net>> wrote:

Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
situation do so
- let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out - problem 
solved.

https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy<https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy>

Noah
PS: confusion of the highest order.
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Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[JORDI PALET MARTINEZ via Community-Discuss]

Even if a transfer policy is adopted, *before* any transfer AFRINIC has the 
right to verify the resources are being used according to the policies, RSA, 
documentation/justification provided when it was allocated/assigned, etc., etc. 

 

If the resources don’t follow the rules, the RIR (not just in the case of 
AFRINIC) has the right to enforce (before the transfer) the rules or reclaim 
the resources.

 

Each RIR has sligtly different rules clearly, but in no case, a transfer policy 
shall be allowed to be used as a way to circumvent the existing rules of the 
origin RIR!

 

Regards,

Jordi

@jordipalet

 

 

 

El 1/8/21 15:01, "Taiwo Oye"  escribió:

 

Thank you @andrew.

 

It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
pass a transfer policy

- point 2

 

 

On Aug 1, 2021, at 13:38, Andrew Alston  wrote:

 

It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
pass a transfer policy.

 

Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer 
out - problem solved.

 

It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the 
community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if AfriNIC 
has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely zero risk 
in this approach.

 

Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other legal 
action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the current 
legal situation



I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its 
members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been echoed 
by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should therefore stand 
that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said risk if it is within 
their powers to do so

 

Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the 
merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system should 
run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this situation.  
In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be nothing short 
of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members mitigate their 
risks as they see fit





Andrew  

 

Get Outlook for iOS

From: Taiwo Oye 
Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
To: Paul Wollner 
Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; 
Community Discuss ; apnic-talk 
; ripe-list ; Members Discuss 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs 

 

Good day all, 

 

I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has been 
watered down now).

 

If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards a 
financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only right 
to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat. 

Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to save 
the region. 

I will like the community to see this as “option 1”. 

 

Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so 
likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to carry 
out its duties?

 

If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members. 

 

If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the 
financial breakdown. 

 

That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward and 
have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive. 




On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner  wrote:

 

 

Hello community

 

I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate sentiments.

 

Let me try this again:

In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service function 
for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid 
disruption to our African end users and businesses.

 

Regards

Paul

 

 

 

 On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Paul Wollner 
 wrote 

 

Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. 

 

The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep 
providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
financial requirements.

 

I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sun, 1 Aug 2021, 15:43 Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss, <
community-discuss@afrinic.net> wrote:

>
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this
> situation do so
>
- let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer out -
> problem solved.
>

https://afrinic.net/policy/archive/inbound-transfer-policy

Noah
PS: confusion of the highest order.
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Taiwo Oye]

Thank you @andrew.

> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
> pass a transfer policy
- point 2


> On Aug 1, 2021, at 13:38, Andrew Alston  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
> pass a transfer policy.
> 
> Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
> situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile 
> transfer out - problem solved.
> 
> It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the 
> community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if 
> AfriNIC has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely 
> zero risk in this approach.
> 
> Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other 
> legal action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the 
> current legal situation
> 
> I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its 
> members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been 
> echoed by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should 
> therefore stand that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said risk 
> if it is within their powers to do so
>  
> Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the 
> merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system 
> should run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this 
> situation.  In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be 
> nothing short of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members 
> mitigate their risks as they see fit
> 
> 
> Andrew  
> 
> Get Outlook for iOS
> From: Taiwo Oye 
> Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
> To: Paul Wollner 
> Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; 
> Community Discuss ; apnic-talk 
> ; ripe-list ; Members Discuss 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service 
> migration to other RIRs
>  
> Good day all,
> 
> I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has 
> been watered down now).
> 
> If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards a 
> financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only 
> right to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat. 
> Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to 
> save the region. 
> I will like the community to see this as “option 1”. 
> 
> Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so 
> likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to 
> carry out its duties?
> 
> If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members. 
> 
> If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the 
> financial breakdown. 
> 
> That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward and 
> have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive. 
> 
>>> On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hello community
>> 
>> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate sentiments.
>> 
>> Let me try this again:
>> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
>> staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service function 
>> for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid 
>> disruption to our African end users and businesses.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Paul Wollner 
>>  wrote 
>> 
>> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. 
>> 
>> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
>> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which 
>> is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to 
>> keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
>> financial requirements.
>> 
>> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
>> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
>> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well 
>> as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration 
>> service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
>> (https://www.nro.net/accountability/ri

Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Andrew Alston via Community-Discuss]

It is my (personal) view that AfriNIC board should exercise their powers and 
pass a transfer policy.

Let those who wish to run the risks of staying with AfriNIC through this 
situation do so - let those who choose not to accept the risk profile transfer 
out - problem solved.

It is entirely within the boards powers to pass emergency policy which the 
community can revoke at the next pdp should they wish to do so - and if AfriNIC 
has the support claimed by members of this list there is absolutely zero risk 
in this approach.

Furthermore - such an approach would also remove the possibility of other legal 
action which may be taken against them on grounds removed from the current 
legal situation

I remind everyone that AfriNIC has a duty to act in the interests of its 
members - and AfriNIC has repeatedly stated in the press - and has been echoed 
by various ISP associations that there is risk here - it should therefore stand 
that AfriNIC provide members with a way to mitigate said risk if it is within 
their powers to do so

Again - a personal view - and again - I explicitly will not comment on the 
merits or demerits of this case - since I believe that the legal system should 
run its course and be the final arbiter of what is correct in this situation.  
In fact I find the amount of legal posturing on this list to be nothing short 
of bizarre - let the courts do their work - but let members mitigate their 
risks as they see fit


Andrew

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

From: Taiwo Oye 
Sent: Sunday, August 1, 2021 3:00:32 PM
To: Paul Wollner 
Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; 
Community Discuss ; apnic-talk 
; ripe-list ; Members Discuss 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs

Good day all,

I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has been 
watered down now).

If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards a 
financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only right 
to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat.
Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to save 
the region.
I will like the community to see this as “option 1”.

Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so 
likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to carry 
out its duties?

If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members.

If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the 
financial breakdown.

That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward and 
have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive.

On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner  wrote:



Hello community

I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate sentiments.

Let me try this again:
In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service function 
for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid 
disruption to our African end users and businesses.

Regards
Paul



 On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Paul Wollner 
 wrote 

Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.

The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k<https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k>, regarding the 
AFRINIC’s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its 
inability to meet its financial requirements.

I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
(https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/<https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/>)

That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
of litigation.

Regards
Paul Wollner






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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Christian Orozco]

First of all, no one here wants AFRINIC to perish. Let's just be clear on
that. All of us here, in this discussion, understand the mission and the
important duties of AFRINIC very well. However, if AFRINIC needs to get
back to its feet first, doesn't a more capable entity be more beneficial to
internet users?

I do not find asking for clarity a debilitating act. Describing something
as "shady" does not directly put one side into a bad light, it's just that
there is more to be learned. Someone is curious about it, so that person
will ask and do other means to seek answers. If only there is an urgency to
inform everyone of AFRINIC's financial situation, then there will not be a
point of doubt at all in the first place.


Regards,
Christian

On Sun, Aug 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM Ronald F. Guilmette 
wrote:

> In message ,
> Brian Sowers  wrote:
>
> >The effect from the NRO activating their stability fund for AFRINIC's
> >behalf will be twofold.
> >First, it will certainly alleviate - in a disclosed and stable manner -
> >AFRINIC's financial shortcomings to allow for it to continue operations.
>
> Do you have some evidence to present which would support the view that
> AFRINIC will *not* be able to continue operations?
>
> Sorry!  Silly question.  Of course you don't.  If you had then you would
> have posted it instead of this speculative rubbish.
>
> >Second, the call for help from NRO certainly draws more attention to
> >AFRINIC's current shady financial situation.
>
> Do you have some evidence to present which would support the view that
> AFRINIC's financial situation is in some way "shady"?
>
> Sorry!  Silly question.  Of course you don't.  If you had then you would
> have posted it instead of this fake news.
>
> You may not be aware of this, my new mysterious Gmail friend, but I have
> a bit of experience with what is and what isn't actually hard evidence.
> And to be frank, you're really very bad at this "amateur detective" stuff.
>
> You should quit while you are behind.  You're just making yourself and
> your paymaster look silly and desperate now.
>
>
> Regards,
> rfg
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Taiwo Oye]

Good day all,

I think paul made some sense in his first statement (tho the statement has been 
watered down now).

If afrinic is in a financial fix or in a state where it is tending towards a 
financial situation where it can no longer perform its duties, it is only right 
to start weighing all viable options to keep the registry afloat. 
Paul made a suggestion - tho a bit aggressively - about the NRO coming to save 
the region. 
I will like the community to see this as “option 1”. 

Does any other community member have any better suggestion in the (not so 
likely) situation that afrinic does not have the financial capability to carry 
out its duties?

If so, please lay them out for discussion amongst the community members. 

If not, Option 1 remains the only alternative to cushion the effect of the 
financial breakdown. 

That being said. I think we should think in the direction of way forward and 
have a plan ready rather than crucifying Paul for being proactive. 

> On Aug 1, 2021, at 11:01, Paul Wollner  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello community
> 
> I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate sentiments.
> 
> Let me try this again:
> In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
> staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service function 
> for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid 
> disruption to our African end users and businesses.
> 
> Regards
> Paul
> 
> 
> 
>  On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Paul Wollner 
>  wrote 
> 
> Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. 
> 
> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which 
> is available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to 
> keep providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
> financial requirements.
> 
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well 
> as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration 
> service for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
> (https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)
> 
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
> of litigation.
> 
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Paul Wollner]

Hello community



I think I  misused the word “take over” to spike some unfortunate sentiments.



Let me try this again:



In the interest of internet continuity, another RIR should help AFRINIC (by 
staff or infrastructure), to perform it’s core registration service function 
for the time being, until all AFRINIC litigation has been sorted to avoid 
disruption to our African end users and businesses.



Regards

Paul






 On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:38:32 +0200 Paul Wollner 
 wrote 


Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. 


The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep 
providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
financial requirements.



I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage,  for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
(https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)



That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
of litigation.



Regards

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message , 
Brian Sowers  wrote:

>The effect from the NRO activating their stability fund for AFRINIC's
>behalf will be twofold.
>First, it will certainly alleviate - in a disclosed and stable manner -
>AFRINIC's financial shortcomings to allow for it to continue operations.

Do you have some evidence to present which would support the view that
AFRINIC will *not* be able to continue operations?

Sorry!  Silly question.  Of course you don't.  If you had then you would
have posted it instead of this speculative rubbish.

>Second, the call for help from NRO certainly draws more attention to
>AFRINIC's current shady financial situation.

Do you have some evidence to present which would support the view that
AFRINIC's financial situation is in some way "shady"?

Sorry!  Silly question.  Of course you don't.  If you had then you would 
have posted it instead of this fake news.

You may not be aware of this, my new mysterious Gmail friend, but I have
a bit of experience with what is and what isn't actually hard evidence.
And to be frank, you're really very bad at this "amateur detective" stuff.

You should quit while you are behind.  You're just making yourself and 
your paymaster look silly and desperate now.


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Brian Sowers]

The effect from the NRO activating their stability fund for AFRINIC’s behalf 
will be twofold. First, it will certainly alleviate—in a disclosed and stable 
manner—AFRINIC’s financial shortcomings to allow for it to continue operations. 
Second, the call for help from NRO certainly draws more attention to AFRINIC’s 
current shady financial situation. A look at AFRINIC’s books will quite 
possibly unveil what the ‘alternate means of funding’ were. At that point, it 
is up to the discretion of the powers that be what happens then. Like many in 
this thread, my wish is that AFRINIC’s shady dealings by its leadership get 
exposed for the community’s betterment. 

-Brian
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ronald F. Guilmette]

In message 

Thizwilondi Malupa  wrote:

>... so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until
>AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis...

As I understand it, there is going to be another court hearing on
Wednesday, August 4th, which is just a few days from now, and that
hearing will specifically be on the topic of the asset freeze.
It is possible that on Tuesday the asset freeze may be lifted.

I disagree, violently, with Eddy and the Board on a whole huge range
of issues.  In fact I am mad as hell at all of them about a number
of things.  But I do trust Eddy enough to believe that if he believed
that he could not keep the lights on and the systems running until
at least Wednesday, then he would tell us all that.

After Wednesday, if the asset freeze is not lifted, then it might be
appropriate to start to panic and/or to call for some extraordinary
measures.  Today however, it isn't.

(Does the term "Chicken Little" have any meaning on the African continent,
or is that just an American thing?  I honestly don't know.)


Regards,
rfg

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Arnaud AMELINA]

Lol, Oooh that's sad when people don't absolutely understand nothing.
People have shot an arrow, they don't even know if their opponent is hit,
they start digging his grave.  Without knowing if the latter does not have
a shield that would return their own projectile to their face.

They want to bury Afrinic without even making sure their complaints hit
their target.  Just manage your boss's current problems and let Afrinic
handle the constraints you create.

Be reassured your Boss needs your advice more than Afrinic.

AFRINIC EN AVANT !!!

French :

Ahahaha ah ! Oooh que s'est triste, quand les gens ne comprennent
absolument rien. Les gens ont tiré une flèche, ils ne savent même pas si
leur adversaire est touché, ils commencent à creuser sa tombe. Sans savoir
si ce dernier n'a pas un bouclier qui leur renverrait leur propre
projectile à la figure.

Ils veulent enterrer Afrinic sans même s'assurer que leurs plaintes ont
atteint leur cible.

Contentez-vous de gérer les problèmes actuels de votre patron et laissez
Afrinic gérer les contraintes que vous avez créer. Soyez rassurer votre
Patron à plus besoin de vos conseils qu' Afrinic.

AFRINIC EN AVANT !!!

Bon courage.

--
Arnaud

Le sam. 31 juil. 2021 à 14:25, Ibeanusi Elvis  a
écrit :

> Like everyone here, I believe that we share a common denominator and idea,
> which is centered on the success, longevity and the continued functionality
> of the AFRINIC. Hence, with the present condition and situation that the
> RIR being AFRINIC is in financially, an assistance through the NRO RIR
> Stability Fund would be an option to utilize until our internet registry
> the AFRINIC RIR is stable and functional to the fullest. Thus, this concept
> of “destruction” as regards to the AFRINIC should not be something we
> should be thinking of and inferring at this point.
>
> Elvis.
>
> On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 22:55 Thizwilondi Malupa 
> wrote:
>
>> I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for
>> AFRINIC , at the current moment they are  in a financial distress , which I
>> believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the
>> registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up
>> stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to
>> look at the  NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like
>> this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until
>> AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes
>> completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also
>> affected that much.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ishmael
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner <
>> paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
>>> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
>>> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
>>> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
>>> financial requirements.
>>>
>>> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other
>>> business's hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core
>>> registry service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their
>>> responsibility as well as commitment to the global internet to take over
>>> AFRINIC’s registration service for the time being, until litigation is
>>> settled some time later. (
>>> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
>>> )
>>>
>>> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results
>>> come out of litigation.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Paul Wollner
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ibeanusi Elvis]

Like everyone here, I believe that we share a common denominator and idea,
which is centered on the success, longevity and the continued functionality
of the AFRINIC. Hence, with the present condition and situation that the
RIR being AFRINIC is in financially, an assistance through the NRO RIR
Stability Fund would be an option to utilize until our internet registry
the AFRINIC RIR is stable and functional to the fullest. Thus, this concept
of “destruction” as regards to the AFRINIC should not be something we
should be thinking of and inferring at this point.

Elvis.

On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 22:55 Thizwilondi Malupa  wrote:

> I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for
> AFRINIC , at the current moment they are  in a financial distress , which I
> believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the
> registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up
> stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to
> look at the  NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like
> this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until
> AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes
> completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also
> affected that much.
>
> Regards,
> Ishmael
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner <
> paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:
>
>> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
>> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
>> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
>> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
>> financial requirements.
>>
>> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
>> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
>> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
>> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
>> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
>> time later. (
>> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
>> )
>>
>> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
>> out of litigation.
>>
>> Regards
>> Paul Wollner
>>
>>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Thizwilondi Malupa]

I can confidently say that , in this community we all want the best for
AFRINIC , at the current moment they are  in a financial distress , which I
believe , also stated by Paul , AFRINIC is already struggling with the
registry functionality. Right now , the solution that can bring up
stability and ensure AFRINIC operations are not entirely affected is to
look at the  NRO RIR Stability Fund. It was established for situations like
this , so it would be best for NRO to take over for the moment , until
AFRINIC can sort out their financial crisis . If AFRINIC becomes
completely disrupted of their functionality , the community will be also
affected that much.

Regards,
Ishmael

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 11:16 PM Paul Wollner <
paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:

> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
> )
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Lamiaa Chnayti]

+1 "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

The NRO's Joint Stability Fund was literally set up to guarantee the
continued operation of an RIR in case of an emergency, and for an RIR to no
longer have access to its bank accounts is obviously one. Otherwise how
will AFRINIC maintain its payroll and maintain its services to serve the
African Internet stability?

It really baffles me how some people are so convinced that anything that
differs from their usual opinion means that it's wrongful. There is no
shame in asking for help. What is shameful is to know that help is needed
and pretend that it's not in order to save one's pride. There's a system in
place, so why not use it until AFRINIC gets back on its feet? I don't want
to see our Internet registry get destroyed and I don't want to suffer from
the consequences, and I doubt anyone in this community does.

Best regards,
Lamiaa



On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 at 22:13, Paul Wollner 
wrote:

> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
> )
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ben Rachad Sanoussi]

Dear all,
Let us support AFRINIC and prevent the destruction of our Regional Internet
Registry.
Thank you

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:13 PM Paul Wollner 
wrote:

> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
> )
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

Oga AK,

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021, 20:52 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE, 
wrote:

> Dear Paul,
> I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for
> AFRINIC to close shop.
>

FYI, a small group of dishonest individuals, actually believe Afrinic
should not exist.

But if one carefully analyse these people, you will realise that even
though they purport to have the best interest of Afrinic service region,
their own actions and historically archived submissions show otherwise.


I can't imagine that.
>

Best believe that people like Wolner and their cohorts are damn serious and
could careless.

AFRINIC has come to stay like any of the other RIRs.
>

For 99% of the wider membership and the African internet community yes.

Mistakes might have been made who knows
>

Seeking accountability is not a mistake. Its a path to progress.
Accountability is very significant and we should not confuse it for a
mistake.

The Afrinic Resources Services Agreement ensures that accountability reigns.


? but am sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected
> and we end up with a win-win.
>

The community, the members, Afrinic and the courts will ensure that.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Sat, 31 Jul 2021, 09:31 Ish Sookun,  wrote:

> The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for
> the
> AFRINIC Board Director seat.
>


Hi Ish

This is not a surprise to be honest.

Paul Wolner is a business associate of Lu Heng and they wanted a seat on
the highest level of Afrinic governance the same Afrinic Lu Heng has
launched multiple suits against and the same Paul Wolner is calling for NRO
to take over Afrinic.

Thank goodness Wolner lost the elections as resource members saw Paul
Wolner for who he was and I remember members stating that the last election
would have an impact on Afrinic existence and now we see what members meant
and why they had to stop Paul.

Just imagine a conflicted and biased Paul Wolner as a director of the
Afrinic board in this times.

Its important to all a spade a spade.

Cheers
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ish Sookun]

Hi Paul,

On Saturday, 31 July 2021 10:00:27 +04 Marcus K. G. Adomey wrote:
>  “The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which
> is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.”

That's your interpretation of the l'express [1] article?

It could also be read as CI's actions have put the regional connectivity and 
the global Internet at risk. The article does not mention CI and its co-
founder for nothing.

I quote for reference:

« Toutefois, la compagnie ne s’en est pas contentée. Elle a déposé une 
  réclamation en dommages-intérêts contre Afrinic le 23 juillet pour 
  «résiliation illégale» et «actes illégaux». La Cour suprême a accédé à 
  la requête en se basant sur les informations fournies par CI. Elle 
  prévient toutefois qu’une contre-attaque d’Afrinic est possible «aux 
  risques et périls» de CI. L’affaire sera de nouveau appelée en cour le 4 
  août. »

Regards,
-- 
Ish Sookun

[1] 
https://www.lexpress.mu/article/397372/litige-entre-afrinic-et-cloud-innovation-reseau-internet-risque-detre-compromis



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Timothy Ola Akinfenwa]

My sentiments exactly *Ish*.
I mean I had to go back and check the mailing list archives to be sure it
is the same Mr. Paul Wollner.
Conspiracy or Coincidence Theory? Only time will tell and history will
surely remember us all!

Best!
<.ta/>

On Sat, Jul 31, 2021 at 7:28 AM Ish Sookun 
wrote:

> The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for
> the
> AFRINIC Board Director seat.
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Ish Sookun
>
> On Friday, 30 July 2021 21:44:09 +04 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE wrote:
> > Dear Paul,
> > I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest
> for
> > AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay
> like
> > any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am
> > sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we
> > end up with a win-win.
> >
> >
> > AK
> >
> > On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner <
> >
> > paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:
> > > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> > > especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet
> > > http://lexpress.mu, which is
> > > attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> > > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> > > financial requirements.
> > >
> > > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other
> business's
> > > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core
> registry
> > > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> > > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> > > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled
> some
> > > time later. (
> > >
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund
> > > )
> > >
> > > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results
> come
> > > out of litigation.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Paul Wollner
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> > > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> >
> > --
> > Website , Weekly
> > Bulletin  UGPortal
> >  PGPortal
> > 
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
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>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Ish Sookun]

The bigger surprise is the that this statement is from someone who ran for the 
AFRINIC Board Director seat.

Regards,

-- 
Ish Sookun

On Friday, 30 July 2021 21:44:09 +04 ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE wrote:
> Dear Paul,
> I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for
> AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like
> any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am
> sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we
> end up with a win-win.
> 
> 
> AK
> 
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner <
> 
> paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:
> > The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> > especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet
> > http://lexpress.mu, which is
> > attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> > providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> > financial requirements.
> > 
> > I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> > hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> > service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> > well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> > registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> > time later. (
> > https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund
> > )
> > 
> > That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> > out of litigation.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Paul Wollner
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > Community-Discuss mailing list
> > Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> > https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
> 
> --
> Website , Weekly
> Bulletin  UGPortal
>  PGPortal
> 





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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Marcus K. G. Adomey]

Hi Paul,

Your suggestion of AFRINIC to relinquish its core services to NRO in this 
situation is giving the impression that you have entered the panic mode for 
what TISPA and lexpress.mu did not say, that is,

 “The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep providing its 
core registry functions due to its inability to meet its financial 
requirements.”


This is wrong, misleading and uncalled for, especially, from someone who was 
candidate in last Board elections and ambitioned to represent the southern 
region on the board of Directors.

Let us assume that the above publications are wrong, didn’t you view the 
explanatory video made by the CEO [1] ([1:18 - 1:30]) to guide you in your 
submission? Are you a prophet of doom? Please, let us be serious and honest in 
our submission.

The RIRs take their responsibility of protecting the community's number 
resources and upholding community-developed rules very seriously and know the 
price to it. It is not the first time and might not be the last that one of 
them has to go through such situation. The normal solidarity and support 
mechanisms must be activated instead.

The world now knows which side you stand in the ongoing dispute that it won't 
give credit to your claims and suggestions.


Cheers



Marcus

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJNnVS-lo4





From: Paul Wollner 
Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2021 9:38:32 PM
To: Members Discuss ; Community Discuss 
; ripe-list ; arin-discuss 
; apnic-talk 
Cc: secretariat 
Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs

Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large.

The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep 
providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
financial requirements.

I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
(https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)

That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
of litigation.

Regards
Paul Wollner




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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[AMADU YUSIF]

I really agree with you. Let us not forget that the only RIR we have in our 
region is AFRINIC. Let us try to protect it no matter how. I think nobody owns 
AFRINIC, but the way we are fighting looks like AFRINIC is person who has 
faulted and want to push it.  Let is not forget that when you cut off one of 
your hands and you roasted it and eat it, you will suffer.

Yusif Amadu
eLearning Unit
University of Ghana Computing Systems
University of Ghana
Cell: +233244659245
Skype:  kooissi


From: ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 2021 8:44 AM
To: Paul Wollner 
Cc: arin-discuss ; secretariat ; 
Community Discuss ; apnic-talk 
; ripe-list ; Members Discuss 

Subject: Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration 
to other RIRs

Dear Paul,
I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for 
AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like any 
of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am sure it's 
not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we end up with a 
win-win.


AK

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner 
mailto:paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net>> wrote:
The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet 
lexpress.mu<http://lexpress.mu>, which is attached to this email, regarding the 
AFRINIC’s inability to keep providing its core registry functions due to its 
inability to meet its financial requirements.

I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
(https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)

That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
of litigation.

Regards
Paul Wollner


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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[ABDULKARIM OLOYEDE]

Dear Paul,
I am surprised by this. Why would you think it is in anyone's interest for
AFRINIC to close shop. I can't imagine that. AFRINIC has come to stay like
any of the other RIRs. Mistakes might have been made who knows ? but am
sure it's not the end of the world. Things can still be corrected and we
end up with a win-win.


AK

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 10:16 PM Paul Wollner <
paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:

> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
> )
>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>
> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>
> ___
> Community-Discuss mailing list
> Community-Discuss@afrinic.net
> https://lists.afrinic.net/mailman/listinfo/community-discuss
>

-- 
Website , Weekly Bulletin 
 UGPortal 
 PGPortal 



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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Matogoro Jabera]

I am sending my congratulations to TISPA for showing the way. This has been
our spirit since then, we will always be there for any initiative designed
to impact African Independence and to be specific in the support of AFRINIC.

"The role of Tanzania in fostering African Liberation movements

The emergence of organised popular liberation movements throughout Africa
following the end of the Second World War was a crucial factor in achieving
independence for many African countries. Tanzania played an important role
in assisting these movements and acted as a consistent opponent of colonial
rule in Africa. In particular, Julius Nyerere – the architect of Tanzania’s
independence and the country’s first President – was a key figure in the
struggle against foreign domination, and helped to popularise the concept
of Pan-African unity."

Africa should remember, there are still many Julius Nyerere in Tanzania. We
stand with Afrinic and we will be against anyone supporting any movement to
negatively impact the operation of AFRINIC. Read, The African Network
Information Centre (AFRINIC) is a Regional Internet Registry (RIR) for
Africa and the Indian Ocean region, AFRINIC is responsible for the
distribution and management of Internet number resources.
Regards,
---
MATOGORO Jabhera
Assistant Lecturer and Coordinator for Research & Publication
Department of Computer Science and Engineering
College of Informatics and Virtual Education
The University of Dodoma
Website: www.udom.ac.tz


On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 1:19 AM Noah  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:19 AM Paul Wollner <
> paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:
>
>> The concerns expressed by TISPA,
>>
>
> TISPA's support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. AFRINIC is our concern.
> We shall stand with her.
>
> I call upon all ISP Associations across AFRICA to stand with AFRINIC.
>
> Cheers,
> Noah
>
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Noah]

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 12:19 AM Paul Wollner <
paul.woll...@africaoncloud.net> wrote:

> The concerns expressed by TISPA,
>

TISPA's support of *solidarity* is with AFRINIC. AFRINIC is our concern. We
shall stand with her.

I call upon all ISP Associations across AFRICA to stand with AFRINIC.

Cheers,
Noah
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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Paul Wollner]

Apologies for the duplicate post, but the initial posting was too large. 

The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and 
especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu, which is 
available at https://ibb.co/tmWCk0k, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep 
providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its 
financial requirements.



I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's 
hostage,  for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry 
service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as well as 
commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s registration service 
for the time being, until litigation is settled some time later. 
(https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/)



That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come out 
of litigation.



Regards

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Re: [Community-Discuss] Call for AFRINIC’s registry service migration to other RIRs

[Arnaud AMELINA]

Le jeu. 29 juil. 2021 à 21:16, Paul Wollner 
a écrit :

> The concerns expressed by TISPA, as well as other concerned parties and
> especially by AFRINIC's  own admission in the news outlet lexpress.mu,
> which is attached to this email, regarding the AFRINIC’s inability to keep
> providing its core registry functions due to its inability to meet its
> financial requirements.
>
> I suggest that in order not hold end users, ISPs and any other business's
> hostage, for the interest of continue service of AFRINIC’s core registry
> service, we should urgently call for NRO fulfil their responsibility as
> well as commitment to the global internet to take over AFRINIC’s
> registration service for the time being, until litigation is settled some
> time later. (
> https://www.nro.net/accountability/rir-accountability/joint-rir-stability-fund/
> )
>

Comme je l'ai écrit tout à l'heure, cette requête se fera dans tes rêves.
Il n'y a pour le moment aucune urgence à l'horizon, ceux qui doivent
s'inquiéter sont ceux qui intentent des procès contre Afrinic.

>
> That way, no end user or business will ever impacted however results come
> out of litigation.
>

Ça n'arrivera pas ...


> Regards
> Paul Wollner
>
>
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