date:20230421

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:38:28PM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote:
> There are a lot of questions left unanswered by this quick analysis,
> but there's a clear trend in fewer participants over time. In fact,
> last month had the second smallest participant count (tied with
> October 2022). Of course, these charts don't show _why_, but they do
> support the assertion that folks are dropping out of the conversation
> faster than others are joining.

One obvious question: How does "sending mail to -devel" correlate with 
any other "contributing to Fedora" metric?  Eg numbers of folks with 
Fedora accounts, number of packagers (or active packagers), git 
commiters/commits, and so forth?  Or even numbers of installations, 
which to this way we can only kinda hand-wave about?

(I wonder how that also correlates to the likes of Debian?)

We also might be a victim of our own success here; things generally 
_work_ quite well, so there's not as much to go on about as there once 
was, and our various upstreams are increasingly driving our headliner 
features rather than the other way around.

So people simply don't _need_ to participate in "developing Fedora" like 
they once did to ensure their interests were represented, and instead 
get to focus more fully on the stuff they build on top.  That's a good 
thing, I think, but it also takes away what was probably the primary 
participation funnel.

 - Solomon
-- 
Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email)
  @pizza:shaftnet dot org   (matrix)
Dowling Park, FL  speachy (libra.chat)

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Richard Shaw

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 3:39 PM Ben Cotton  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 4:05 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
> >
> > What evidence shows that the group is ever shrinking? I often see Self
> > Introduction posts and new people interacting with project. I suppose
> > that whether they continue interacting afterwards is another question.
>
> I'm glad you asked. Earlier this week I decided to avoid doing other
> work by putting together some quick charts of devel list
> participation. Here's the number of unique participants per month from
> 2004–2022:
> https://bcotton.fedorapeople.org/images/devel-participation-monthly.png
>
> And for a less-noisy version, the median of the monthly numbers per year:
> https://bcotton.fedorapeople.org/images/devel-participation-mean.png


And on discourse you could have pasted these pictures directly in without
having to upload them somewhere... ;)


> There are a lot of questions left unanswered by this quick analysis,
> but there's a clear trend in fewer participants over time. In fact,
> last month had the second smallest participant count (tied with
> October 2022). Of course, these charts don't show _why_, but they do
> support the assertion that folks are dropping out of the conversation
> faster than others are joining.
>

I think this is especially concerning because Fedora seems to be more
popular than ever. If we had a way to measure that and include it in the
graph (devel participants as a % of users?) I have a feeling the slope
would be much more negative.

Not that it proves Discourse would change that, but still...

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Carl George

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 12:24 AM Benson Muite
 wrote:
>
> On 4/21/23 04:24, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> >> I am proposing that over the course of 2023, starting with the Changes
> >> process, we move Fedora development conversations from this mailing list to
> >> the Discourse-based Fedora Discussion.
> >
> > I feel this is a case of trading one group of people (email list users)
> > for a different group of people (web forum users).  I have seen this
> > done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
> > always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
> > users" group.
> Discourse is very nice.  It is open source, uses a reasonable license
> [0] (though [1] would be better), and is great for casual interactions
> that maybe spread out over time.  Would highly recommend it for moderate
> size community discussion.
>
> However, it doesn't seem like we can hack on it to better suite
> community needs, for example to have the same functionality as mailing
> lists[2].  It is not standards driven and is primarily developed by one
> company - something that follows Apache way[3] or has a community
> governance process would be better in the long term for a large project
> with many contributors who have technical expertise.
>
> Email clients offer significant customizability that a one size fits all
> web interface cannot provide.  Mailing list mode for Discourse is
> helpful, but not at the same level as email lists, where once one has
> gained sufficient knowledge, interaction can be done from the comfort of
> the client of your choice. As such, simply adopting it because it can be
> deployed may leave out many contributors, in particular those who drive
> development forward.  Mailing lists are not perfect, but it is not clear
> Discourse is a good replacement for the devel list.

As Matthew stated, Ben has measured it and fewer people are
participating on the mailing list over time.  We are already leaving
out many contributors.  Those conversations are largely moving to
issue trackers, which are also not perfect but are clearly more
appealing than email for many people.  Discourse has the potential to
be a more attractive alternative than both email and issue trackers.
To me this seems like a solid strategy for reversing the trend and
getting more people participating in development discussions.

>
> 0) https://github.com/discourse/discourse/blob/main/LICENSE.txt
> 1) https://www.gnu.org/licenses/agpl-3.0.en.html
> 2)
> https://discourse.cmake.org/t/cmake-discourse-mailing-list-mode-incorrectly-personally-addresses-all-email/738
> 3) https://apache.org/theapacheway/
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 4:05 PM Maxwell G  wrote:
>
> What evidence shows that the group is ever shrinking? I often see Self
> Introduction posts and new people interacting with project. I suppose
> that whether they continue interacting afterwards is another question.

I'm glad you asked. Earlier this week I decided to avoid doing other
work by putting together some quick charts of devel list
participation. Here's the number of unique participants per month from
2004–2022:
https://bcotton.fedorapeople.org/images/devel-participation-monthly.png

And for a less-noisy version, the median of the monthly numbers per year:
https://bcotton.fedorapeople.org/images/devel-participation-mean.png

There are a lot of questions left unanswered by this quick analysis,
but there's a clear trend in fewer participants over time. In fact,
last month had the second smallest participant count (tied with
October 2022). Of course, these charts don't show _why_, but they do
support the assertion that folks are dropping out of the conversation
faster than others are joining.

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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Planned Outage - chat.fedoraproject.org - 2023-04-25 07:30 UTC

2023-04-21 Thread Kevin Fenzi

There will be an outage of chat.fedoraproject.org starting at 2023-04-25 07:30 
UTC,
which will last approximately 4 hours.

To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
or run:

date -d '2023-04-25 07:30UTC'

Reason for outage:

Element Matrix services are performing maintenance on chat.fedoraproject.org.

During the maintenance window the service will be affected as follows:

Media uploads and downloads will stop working at the beginning of the 
maintenance period.

Within the maintenance period the service will be unavailable for an 
estimated maximum of
15 minutes. We will aim to reduce this downtime as much as possible.

After the service downtime media downloads and uploads will again be 
functional.

Affected Services:

chat.fedoraproject.org - the fedora.im matrix homeserver.

Ticket Link:

https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11258

Please join #fedora-admin or #fedora-noc on irc.libera.chat
or add comments to the ticket for this outage above.


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Planned Outage - chat.fedoraproject.org - 2023-04-25 07:30 UTC

2023-04-21 Thread Kevin Fenzi

There will be an outage of chat.fedoraproject.org starting at 2023-04-25 07:30 
UTC,
which will last approximately 4 hours.

To convert UTC to your local time, take a look at
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Infrastructure/UTCHowto
or run:

date -d '2023-04-25 07:30UTC'

Reason for outage:

Element Matrix services are performing maintenance on chat.fedoraproject.org.

During the maintenance window the service will be affected as follows:

Media uploads and downloads will stop working at the beginning of the 
maintenance period.

Within the maintenance period the service will be unavailable for an 
estimated maximum of
15 minutes. We will aim to reduce this downtime as much as possible.

After the service downtime media downloads and uploads will again be 
functional.

Affected Services:

chat.fedoraproject.org - the fedora.im matrix homeserver.

Ticket Link:

https://pagure.io/fedora-infrastructure/issue/11258

Please join #fedora-admin or #fedora-noc on irc.libera.chat
or add comments to the ticket for this outage above.


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Re: Heads-up: USD 23.02 coming to Rawhide

2023-04-21 Thread Ben Beasley

Since I announced the update to USD 23.02, USD 23.05 was released, so I 
will update to that version instead. The schedule and the other details 
remain the same.


On 4/17/23 10:58, Ben Beasley wrote:
Now that Blender 3.5 has landed, I can update the usd package in 
Rawhide to version 23.02[1]. I plan to build it in one week, 
2023-04-24, or slightly later.


The .so version is bumped (as with every release) and the monolithic 
library is renamed from libusd_usd_ms.so to libusd_ms.so. I am also 
enabling the Draco plugin now that draco is packaged in Fedora; this 
adds the usdcompress command-line tool.


The sole dependent package is blender; I will rebuild it in a side tag 
myself.


[1] https://src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/usd/pull-request/4


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Carl George

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 8:25 PM Chris Adams  wrote:
>
> Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > I am proposing that over the course of 2023, starting with the Changes
> > process, we move Fedora development conversations from this mailing list to
> > the Discourse-based Fedora Discussion.
>
> I feel this is a case of trading one group of people (email list users)
> for a different group of people (web forum users).  I have seen this
> done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
> always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
> users" group.
>
> Web forums far from fit how I use communication tools.  For example, I'm
> highly keyboard driven and dislike lots of things that force me to use a
> mouse.  I use mutt to read email, which works great.  I have email
> filters to organize and save things, I can flag messages for later
> review/reference, and more.
>
> Web forums also seem in my experience to be much more casual
> interaction, where people come and go for long stretches of time, much
> more than email lists.  If I just don't click on your bookmark for a day
> or two, it's out of mind quickly and I might not come back for weeks or
> months (or ever, which is usually the case).  And then even if I do come
> back, now I'm pretty much too far behind to ever catch up.

That cuts both ways.

If I just don't click on [email filter folder] for a day or two, it's
out of mind quickly and I might not come back for weeks or months.
And then even if I do come back, now I'm pretty much too far behind to
ever catch up.

>
> I guess you're hoping for enough overlap between email and web forum
> users to keep an active developer community... I wish you luck with
> that.
>
> --
> Chris Adams 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Maxwell G

Hi Matthew,


On Thu Apr 20, 2023 at 17:20 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote
> As it is, devel list is too much for many people to follow — people
> we’d like to have around.

I disagree. I find mailing lists much easier to deal with. They're all
in one place, they're synced between my devices, and I can use whatever
client I like. I can start writing a message on my phone, save it as a
draft, and send it from my laptop. I can filter messages to my heart's
content. Everything is threaded and I can choose to ignore the threads
I'm uninterested in.

It's easy to skim the list and I can do so on my terms, as opposed to
being pushed towards a _centralized_, single point of failure,
javascript-heavy, bulky web frontend. I understand that Discourse has
functionality for interacting via email, but that's fundamentally not
its purpose, and it's apparent that email users are second class
citizens. With mailing lists, most messages are sent as plain text email
that displays properly in my TUI email client, and they're easy to quote
and splice to reply to the parts in which I'm interested. I can both
create new threads AND reply to existing ones.

> It covers many different things at once, yet
> also drives us towards more scattered communications.
> Our infamous
> mega-threads are not really effective for getting to community
> consensus, and tend to bring out the worst in us.

How is this inherent to email? IMO, this correlates two unrelated
things. I don't think it's fair to blame people's poor interpersonal
communication on email.


> I know this is a big change, but, hear me out…

I'll do my best, but I'll warn that I'm resistant change and am content
with current mailing lists. If anything, I think we need to provide
Fedora Infra more resources to properly maintain and keep up to date our
Mailman instance.


> We’re missing people
> 
>
> A Mastodon post from long-time Fedora contributor Major Hayden got me
> thinking:
>
> > How do people make so much time available for mailing list
> > discourse?
> >
> > Once I ensure my team has the technical guidance they need
> > and I work through the tasks of work that I owe other
> > people, I take a look at the mailing list and say: "Oh my
> > gosh, what the heck happened here?" Then the discussion
> > goes further off the rails while I'm typing out a reply and
> > my reply is no longer relevant.
> >
> > — https://tootchute.com/@major/109666036733834421

Again, I acknowledge this problem, but you've failed to demonstrate how
this is inherent to mailing lists.

> And… some people aren’t here because — in
> contrast with our “Friends” foundation, it isn’t always a nice place to
> be (and mailing lists don’t provide many tools for moderation, except
> the big hammer of outright bans).

Well, you can delete messages from the ML archives in the same way you can
delete forum comments, but people who sign up for notifications will
still receive a copy.


> And that’s just one example. Take a look back at any mega-thread, and
> you’ll find similar — and worse. When things get heated, the only way
> to intervene is by adding more.  There are often long subthreads of two
> people going back and forth on tangents. Then, other conversation
> branches duplicate that, or refer across. Classical email tools don’t
> actually handle this kind of thing very well at all. In my experience,
> it only really works if you keep up with the conversation in almost
> real time, which has its own problems even when that’s possible.

My email client has much better support for threading than Discourse
does. I can easily toggle between threaded mode and flattened latest
first mode. This is easier to navigate than Discourse's flat list. Email
allows you to chose the best experience for you from a multitude of
clients.


> We’re scattered in actual practice
> --
>
> Devel list may be the center, but we have _hundreds_ of Fedora mailing
> lists. A dozen or so are reasonably active (Test, Legal, ARM…) but most
> are inactive or dead. Some are just meeting reminders over and over —
> for meetings that aren’t even active anymore. It’s easy to make but
> hard to _unmake_ a mailing list.

Yeah, I think the mailing lists could use more organization and cleanup.

> For lists that are active, the split is confusing — when should
> something be on the packaging list rather than devel? What happens when
> something is related to both Cloud and Server, or Workstation and KDE?
> One can post to both lists, but if someone replies and isn’t subscribed
> to both, the conversation gets split.

Yeah, this can be confusing. I think the solution is organization and
cleanup, not completely shutting down mailing lists.

> With “devel” as the main list, conversations about marketing, design,
> events, and so on don’t really have a central place. (The Mindshare
> list never really caught on.) That makes these important activities
> feel even more disconnected and secondary in

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Jarek Prokop

On 4/21/23 20:44, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 07:39:17PM +0200, Jaroslav Prokop wrote:

I am, luckily, not paid to read forums
with no threading. IMO, a stream of posts with mentions of previous
posts is not threading. Threading begins and ends
on new topic posts AFAICT on discourse.

It's not presented as a tree, but there _are_ threads of replies.

Heh, sounds like a fun side project to try to transform it into a
tree structure.

If you want to make Jonathan Corbet happy, make that tree structure be then
served via NNTP. :)

Sounds like a challenge! I'll put it on my personal project backlog ;)

Example:https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/future-of-encryption-in-fedora-desktop-variants/80397/83?replies_to_post_number=83

Finally, noticed what it does, it made me a bit confused as the
first response was the same as in the "global" flow of the topic,
but the message under it changed. I think that it should be better
visible that they are actually replies.

It seems to hide other replies and only show those that are part of
the "thread". Do they accept RFEs? :)

They do -- post athttps://meta.discourse.org/.

I think enhancing the visibility after I expand replies for the
posts in the "thread" would be better.

This particular thing could possibly be done via a theme component (see
https://meta.discourse.org/t/about-the-theme-component-category/232731),
which is a kind of lightweight plugin for the client-side. (These are very
easy to install into a given site, unlike weightier server-side plugins.)

Or maybe even just some CSS. What exactly did you have in mind?
I think it is a bug in UI/UX. I click "replies", I see *something*
changed in the layout, but I have trouble identifying what exactly.
Visually, if there are more than 2 or even 1 reply, then I just see with
peripheral vision something had changed,
but when I look closer I have trouble seeing a difference, IOW, I have
trouble identifying what I did when I clicked the button.

Either moving the replies a bit to a side or maybe adding something more
visual, like a blue stripe on the threaded replies would be helpful IMO.

I can play around with the plugin, see what feels how, and come back to
Discourse with suggestions, thanks for the resources!

(Firstly I'll have to confirm with a more "vanilla" install, to see if
the problem might be my default dark mode environment Discourse switched
into, that's a problem for monday me though :) )

Regards,
Jarek
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Richard Shaw

Not quoting anything in particular, just my opinion and a +1.

Being a solid Gen X'er I'm comfortable in both worlds. I will say that I've
found the large volume of emails between Fedora and MythTV (though it's
slowed in the last few years) occasionally overwhelming.

The first thing I do almost every morning (still in my PJs with a cup of
coffee) is to go through all the threads, archive what I'm not interested
in, but keep just in case, and read the others.

In my work world I frequently find myself in Discourse (or similar) forums,
and I find it easy enough to find what I'm looking for, or if there's new
threads or replies to threads I've posted to (usually at the top).

A few months ago I spent a few hours cleaning up old emails in
gmail because google (the search engine) lies. I perfected a query to only
return list emails older than 1 year but even though I checked "include all
emails" it would only delete about 500 at a time. Took a while to work
through my 10+ year history as a packager 500 emails at a time!

The reality is the future potential contributors are used to tools like
Discourse. That's fine. I'll adapt.

Thanks,
Richard
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:53:26PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote:
> 1. Python discussions are no longer at the same place as all the
> other discussions (my Thunderbird). This is a big one for me. I
> cannot primarily use the Discourse web interface on
> discuss.python.org because I simply won't go there. I suppose that

I mentioned somewhere else around here that I use the Android "Discourse
Hub" app as a way to keep up with this — I see notifications from Python,
Home Asssitant, Flatpak, etc., even though I don't visit those sites daily.

I kind of miss this on the desktop. I wonder if a web app that does the same
thing would help you too? As more and more projects use Discourse, that
could become a sort of nexus for all of these gardens that Jonathan
Corbet mentions.

> 
> 2. When I read the content in the web app, it does not mark the
> related emails read. I can either read everything via email (which
> frankly has a worse readability than the web app) or go read it on
> web and than manually mark my emails as read. So far, this has been
> tedious for me so far and I repeatedly give up and mark the entire
> Python Discourse folder as read when the number reaches 10k unread
> emails. Even if I read everything via email, I cannot reply there so
> I still need to visit the thing in the web app to participate.

We have reply-by-email enabled. It is also possible to enable
new topics by email, but that's vulernable to impersonation (and spam) so
if we enable that there probably will be a moderation step.

> 3. When I choose to use the mailing list approach, I can no longer
> distinguish "regular" email notifications (somebody replied to my
> comment or mentioned me) from the rest of the email traffic from the
> forum. This will apply to others as well; e.g. when I send an email
> to devel now, I can CC people I know need to see it -- on Discourse
> I can mention them, but they might not notice that if they receive
> an email of everything anyway.

Can you use the Feedback-ID header to distinguish and highlight those
personal notifications?

> So far, when Python switched from mailing list to Discourse I've noticed this:
> 
> Once I participate in a certain discussion, it somewhat works, as
> long as I remember to go check it out occasionally. But OTOH I miss
> out almost everything I don't actively participate in.
> 
> ---
> 
> Perhaps I am a greybeard, but I am pretty much scared of this change in 
> Fedora.
> 
> 
> You say we miss people now. I say we will miss them then.
> Unfortunately, I don't know how to solve that. Maybe my fear is not
> justified, but it is real.

Thank you. I appreciate the real-world feedback from the Python experience.

What about, instead of mailing list mode, enabling the Activity Summary
email, and setting it to daily instead of weekly? That gives a reminder (and
hopefully something interesting) but keeps the web site as primary for
actual notifications and for keeping track of what's read and not read.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 07:05:05PM +0100, Tom Hughes via devel wrote:
> >"Mailing list mode" was a specific thing in earlier versions of Discourse —
> >it sent a notification for every message posted. This is kind of like going
> It's still a thing in current versions, it just doesn't seem to be
> available in the Fedora installation.

It's hidden from the settings UI by default in new installs. Looks like it
is still there as an option to enable, but I really do think it's kind of a
trap.

If the category watch thing doesn't work for you (and others) for some
reason, I can re-consider. If so, I might rename it to "email me everything
that isn't muted" instead of "mailing list mode", though

> It also doesn't have to send you everything as you can mute those
> things you don't want to include.

That will at least keep you from getting thousands of Copr posts. :)

> Having to positively opt in to certain tags seems like a terrible
> idea as you're bound to miss lots of things when people create new
> tags that you don't even know exist. I'd much rather get everything
> by default and then opt out of the things I'm not interested in.

In that case, subscribing by category should do the trick. Categories are
not light-weight, so we're unlikely to create new ones without fanfare. It's
not just one checkbox, but there are only a handful of main ones anyway.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:54:09AM -0400, JT wrote:
> So I'm interested by what you bring up here.  Have you run into situations
> where someone wanted to contribute to development but was unwilling to use
> a mailing list?  With a community as big as Fedora and with a multitude of

I talk to a lot of people about getting involved in Fedora. "Sign up for
this mailing list and introduce yourself" is a big drop-out point.


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Re: RFC: No koji builds during mass branching and updates-testing enablement

2023-04-21 Thread Fabio Valentini

On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 8:56 PM Kevin Fenzi  wrote:
>
> * Cancel all builds that are in progress. Maintainers can resubmit after
> the outage with the appropriate branches.
> * unpush all updates stuck in gating/pending? Is this too much?
> * do the branching steps, get everything in place, then open things on
> the hub.
>
> This is a lot more disruptive, but it's only for part of a day and I
> agree it's nicer to not have things to clean up.

Sorry for the long RTT. My email inbox is only now no longer looking
like a dumpster fire. :)

It sounds like koji actually supports giving an outage message, so
that would be great.
Concerning the three steps listed above: I think they would make sense.
Maybe it could look like this:

1. lock down the koji hub
2. cancel all builds that are still running (I think this could
exclude builds that are targeting stable branches?)
3. unpush all Rawhide updates that are stuck (maybe adding a comment
to the bodhi update why it happened)
4. do the mass branching steps (i.e. Rawhide == Fedora N+2, Branched
== Fedora N+1)
5. unlock koji hub

Parts of steps 2,3,4 could even happen with more granularity (I think
mass branching steps happen alphabetically for all packages? that
would give running builds more time to finish.).

Fabio
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Miro Hrončok


On 20. 04. 23 23:20, Matthew Miller wrote:

I propose that we transition devel list, and eventually most of our
mailing lists, to Fedora Discussion (our Discourse-powered forum).


Python recently transitioned from a mailing list (python-dev) to Discourse 
(discuss.python.org).


Challenges I don't know how to deal with:

1. Python discussions are no longer at the same place as all the other 
discussions (my Thunderbird). This is a big one for me. I cannot primarily use 
the Discourse web interface on discuss.python.org because I simply won't go 
there. I suppose that if Fedora switches the devel mailing list to Discourse, I 
will have to go there, considering how often I post to the devel list. However, 
In suspect some more casual contributors will not go there adn we'll lost them 
or they will loose track od what's happening in Fedora.



A partial solution to this is to use the "mail list mode" and disable topics I 
don't care about. Which is possible, but brings me to...



2. When I read the content in the web app, it does not mark the related emails 
read. I can either read everything via email (which frankly has a worse 
readability than the web app) or go read it on web and than manually mark my 
emails as read. So far, this has been tedious for me so far and I repeatedly 
give up and mark the entire Python Discourse folder as read when the number 
reaches 10k unread emails. Even if I read everything via email, I cannot reply 
there so I still need to visit the thing in the web app to participate.



3. When I choose to use the mailing list approach, I can no longer distinguish 
"regular" email notifications (somebody replied to my comment or mentioned me) 
from the rest of the email traffic from the forum. This will apply to others as 
well; e.g. when I send an email to devel now, I can CC people I know need to 
see it -- on Discourse I can mention them, but they might not notice that if 
they receive an email of everything anyway.



So far, when Python switched from mailing list to Discourse I've noticed this:

Once I participate in a certain discussion, it somewhat works, as long as I 
remember to go check it out occasionally. But OTOH I miss out almost everything 
I don't actively participate in.


---

Perhaps I am a greybeard, but I am pretty much scared of this change in Fedora.


You say we miss people now. I say we will miss them then. Unfortunately, I 
don't know how to solve that. Maybe my fear is not justified, but it is real.



--
Miro Hrončok
--
Phone: +420777974800
IRC: mhroncok
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Simo Sorce

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 14:27 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:37:20AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > So I registered the account, added the email I want to get
> > notifications at, and selected a few topics.
> > 
> > First impressions.
> > 
> > It is absolutely confusing to figure out how to watch topics.
> > If you select a category and a topic you do not get the notification
> > bell to watch them.
> > If you select just a topic you get it.
> > Topics are all in random order. When you select some topic by searching
> > you sometimes are then proposed a different one (? renames ?)
> 
> A terminology thing: I think what you are calling "topics" discourse calls
> "tags". Each discussion or thread is what discourse calls a "topic".

Sorry, I did mean tags.

> Watches are by category, by tag, or by individual topic.
> 
> > 
> > I found no way to watch all, and let my client sort it out ... which
> > would need client filtering, because the stupid gmail filtering can't
> > handle header fields (#@#%$@#).
> 
> Watching at the category level is probably the closest thing here. That is,
> watch Project Discussion and News & Announcements at least. That will
> include all topics under those categories regardless of tag.
> 
> As for Gmail, see
> https://gist.github.com/tpopela/e2f17bf8eac15bee734b993e170f4dfa.
> I'm trying to get Tomas to write a Discourse post about that.

I've seen this before and it is a total monstrosity that works for
those that use the Web UI, but for those that pulls from IMAP like me
just makes everything worse, as those scripts run with delay, no
thanks. I expect they will also break suddenly whenever gmail decides
to change something, so I am not investing my time in that at all.
Note that I use gmail only because I am forced to, so I have no desire
in further exploring the matter, personally speaking, I have other
tools to cope with filtering if I need to.

> 
> > They come several minutes (at least 5 minutes, as the email is *sent*
> > that much later, and the sent date is set to when the email is sent,
> > not to when the post is made) after the actual message is posted in
> > discourse, I do not care much, I generally read asynchronously as well,
> > but it is sometimes annoying not to be able to establish the real time
> > a post was made.
> 
> Oh that's interesting. I'll bring that up. The five minute delay is actually
> a site-wide configuration option: it gives time for the poster to make any
> quick typo fixes, add tags they forgot, etc. before the mail is sent. (The
> default is 10.)
> 
> > The only way to know who posted is by looking at the From field, where
> > the description of the notification email address is changed to include
> > the display name of the poster. That is a bit confusing at times.
> > 
> > There is no formatting in the mail that tells me who is someone
> > replying to, or which message in the thread it was being replied to (I
> > disabled sending me the whole thread with each notification, I may re-
> > enable it).
> 
> Do you have "Include an excerpt of replied to post in emails" checked?
> Does that help?

I have it, it seem it does nothing, as no excerpt is added.

> > The test part so far is otherwise decently rendered, and for image
> > posts it is clear enough that there is something to look at in the html
> > part. *however* the images are not embedded in the email, so all that
> > information is unavailable offline or for archival (and in my
> > configuration requires to actively pull images as I configured my
> > client to not pull 3rd party content automatically for privacy and
> > security reasons).
> 
> Reasonably enough. There might be an option to embed images -- I'll look.
> For what it's worth, the images should all (and only) come from the
> dedicated CDN site for our hosting, and there's no linked tracking on our
> side or Discourse's. There's probably logs somewhere, though.

The privacy statement is about why I do not configure my client to
download in general, not referred to discourse specifically.
Point is the image is not embedded, so you need to be online to be able
to pull at all whenever you read the message. It also means if the CDN
removes/renames that content at some point in the future, the message
sitting in my mailbox is now broken.

> -- 
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
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-- 
Simo Sorce
RHEL Crypto Team
Red Hat, Inc


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 07:39:17PM +0200, Jaroslav Prokop wrote:
> >>I am, luckily, not paid to read forums
> >>with no threading. IMO, a stream of posts with mentions of previous
> >>posts is not threading. Threading begins and ends
> >>on new topic posts AFAICT on discourse.
> >
> >It's not presented as a tree, but there _are_ threads of replies.
>
> Heh, sounds like a fun side project to try to transform it into a
> tree structure.

If you want to make Jonathan Corbet happy, make that tree structure be then
served via NNTP. :)

> >Example:https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/future-of-encryption-in-fedora-desktop-variants/80397/83?replies_to_post_number=83
> Finally, noticed what it does, it made me a bit confused as the
> first response was the same as in the "global" flow of the topic,
> but the message under it changed. I think that it should be better
> visible that they are actually replies.
> 
> It seems to hide other replies and only show those that are part of
> the "thread". Do they accept RFEs? :)

They do -- post at https://meta.discourse.org/. 


> I think enhancing the visibility after I expand replies for the
> posts in the "thread" would be better.

This particular thing could possibly be done via a theme component (see
https://meta.discourse.org/t/about-the-theme-component-category/232731),
which is a kind of lightweight plugin for the client-side. (These are very
easy to install into a given site, unlike weightier server-side plugins.)

Or maybe even just some CSS. What exactly did you have in mind?




-- 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:37:20AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> So I registered the account, added the email I want to get
> notifications at, and selected a few topics.
> 
> First impressions.
> 
> It is absolutely confusing to figure out how to watch topics.
> If you select a category and a topic you do not get the notification
> bell to watch them.
> If you select just a topic you get it.
> Topics are all in random order. When you select some topic by searching
> you sometimes are then proposed a different one (? renames ?)

A terminology thing: I think what you are calling "topics" discourse calls
"tags". Each discussion or thread is what discourse calls a "topic".

Watches are by category, by tag, or by individual topic.

> 
> I found no way to watch all, and let my client sort it out ... which
> would need client filtering, because the stupid gmail filtering can't
> handle header fields (#@#%$@#).

Watching at the category level is probably the closest thing here. That is,
watch Project Discussion and News & Announcements at least. That will
include all topics under those categories regardless of tag.

As for Gmail, see
https://gist.github.com/tpopela/e2f17bf8eac15bee734b993e170f4dfa.
I'm trying to get Tomas to write a Discourse post about that.

> They come several minutes (at least 5 minutes, as the email is *sent*
> that much later, and the sent date is set to when the email is sent,
> not to when the post is made) after the actual message is posted in
> discourse, I do not care much, I generally read asynchronously as well,
> but it is sometimes annoying not to be able to establish the real time
> a post was made.

Oh that's interesting. I'll bring that up. The five minute delay is actually
a site-wide configuration option: it gives time for the poster to make any
quick typo fixes, add tags they forgot, etc. before the mail is sent. (The
default is 10.)

> The only way to know who posted is by looking at the From field, where
> the description of the notification email address is changed to include
> the display name of the poster. That is a bit confusing at times.
> 
> There is no formatting in the mail that tells me who is someone
> replying to, or which message in the thread it was being replied to (I
> disabled sending me the whole thread with each notification, I may re-
> enable it).

Do you have "Include an excerpt of replied to post in emails" checked?
Does that help?

> The test part so far is otherwise decently rendered, and for image
> posts it is clear enough that there is something to look at in the html
> part. *however* the images are not embedded in the email, so all that
> information is unavailable offline or for archival (and in my
> configuration requires to actively pull images as I configured my
> client to not pull 3rd party content automatically for privacy and
> security reasons).

Reasonably enough. There might be an option to embed images -- I'll look.
For what it's worth, the images should all (and only) come from the
dedicated CDN site for our hosting, and there's no linked tracking on our
side or Discourse's. There's probably logs somewhere, though.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Adam Williamson

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 09:11 +, Michael J Gruber wrote:
> 
> In any case, we have quite a fragmentation right now with the MLs,
> forum (discourse), IRC, Matrix, plus tickets on various platforms
> (bz, dist-git, pagure, gitlab) some of which offer teams and
> discussions, too. Choice is good, fragmentation is not because it
> makes it hard to know:
> - Where can I reach whom?
> - Where can I discuss what?

This is true, but I think it's interestingly worth noting we've pretty
much *always* had the same fragmentation.

For instance, as I recall, back when I joined in 2009, we had:

* Mailing lists
* Forum (fedoraforum - this is/was not official, but commonly used, and
illustrates a point that if people want some form of communication,
they'll use it, even if we don't have an "official" one; see also
Fedora discord and Fedora telegram)
* IRC (the addition of Matrix hasn't fragmented things much really, as
IRC and Matrix are bridged in both directions)
* Bugzilla
* Trac (playing the approximate current role of Pagure issues)
* Various platforms for "upstreams", like Sourceforge (playing the
current role of Pagure source tracking, gitlab, github etc.)
* Usenet (alt.os.linux.fedora. This is *still* around, and some
wonderful genius whose hand I want to shake has set up a bot that
forwards Fedora Magazine posts to it. The last post by someone other
than a bot was from "nw", on January 20. Until today. Now it's from
me!)

I'm not sure it's possible to achieve zero- or low-fragmentation.
Fragmentation just seems to...*happen*. If you build one system that
does everything it's too big and unwieldy and people use more targeted
systems for 'simplicity'.
-- 
Adam Williamson (he/him/his)
Fedora QA
Fedora Chat: @adamwill:fedora.im | Mastodon: @ad...@fosstodon.org
https://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Adam Williamson

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 11:00 -0400, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:55:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> > I agree there's a huge lack of netiquette in Fedora's mailing lists,
> > with wholesale quoting, top-posting, subjects not being updated, etc but
> > changing mediums seems far more expensive than asking people to post
> > emails that are easier to read.
> 
> Not to mention these problems won't go away just because it's now hosted 
> on a web page..

Well, not because it's hosted on a web page, but a more structured
system *does* address a lot of these problems. A lot of what you're
referring to as "netiquette" is really about putting the onus on each
individual user to do stuff that a more sophisticated system could
handle for them, and a system like discourse *does* handle those. You
can't top-post on discourse. Renaming topics works in a much saner way.
You can deal with 'cross-posting' in a much saner and more flexible
way. Quoting is always a problem everywhere, but that's only *one*
thing, at least. :D
-- 
Adam Williamson (he/him/his)
Fedora QA
Fedora Chat: @adamwill:fedora.im | Mastodon: @ad...@fosstodon.org
https://www.happyassassin.net



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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Stephen Smoogen

On Fri, 21 Apr 2023 at 14:07, Ralf Corsépius  wrote:

>
>
> Am 21.04.23 um 16:15 schrieb Solomon Peachy via devel:
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:42:20AM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
>
> >> In all seriousness, I would advise you to hang out at the current
> >> discussion.fedoraproject.org and feel the vibe a bit.
> >
> > You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at 
> > and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.
>
> Absolutely.
>
> The proposal is harmful to Fedora and likely based on the distorted view
> of somebody lacking of expericence on practical distribution work.
>
>
I am going to say that comment is Wrong in multiple ways. Both Matthew and
Aleksandra have done deep and practical distribution work. You may not like
their proposal, and it may not be how you or I find communication to be
useful, BUT making comments about a person's abilities is out of line.


> Ralf
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Ralf Corsépius




Am 21.04.23 um 16:15 schrieb Solomon Peachy via devel:

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:42:20AM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:



In all seriousness, I would advise you to hang out at the current
discussion.fedoraproject.org and feel the vibe a bit.


You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at 
and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.


Absolutely.

The proposal is harmful to Fedora and likely based on the distorted view 
of somebody lacking of expericence on practical distribution work.


Ralf
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Tom Hughes via devel


On 21/04/2023 18:52, Matthew Miller wrote:


"Mailing list mode" was a specific thing in earlier versions of Discourse —
it sent a notification for every message posted. This is kind of like going
to Hyperkitty and saying "subscribe me to all 600 lists". I don't recommend
that. Instead, choose specific tags that you want to subscribe to, just as
you would subscribe to individual mailing lists.


It's still a thing in current versions, it just doesn't seem to be
available in the Fedora installation.

It also doesn't have to send you everything as you can mute those
things you don't want to include.

Having to positively opt in to certain tags seems like a terrible
idea as you're bound to miss lots of things when people create new
tags that you don't even know exist. I'd much rather get everything
by default and then opt out of the things I'm not interested in.

Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:02:15AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> I really can't imagine a change for me (and I apologize if that sounds
> really "grumpy old man"... which I guess it starting to apply to me,
> since I was in college when a friend told me about some guy in Finland
> saying "hey Minix people...").  It really comes down to how I use a
> computer I guess; I am highly keyboard-focused, and I haven't seen a web
> forum yet that can handle that.  Some have a few keyboard shortcuts, but
> they rarely fill the whole use and often are not well-maintained.

Accessiblity is important to Fedora, and I take this seriously. For
Discourse, hit the ? key to bring up the page describing keyboard shortcuts.

If you find something you can't do, I'll report it as a priority bug.

> Email lets me have full control of how I consume it.  I can sort it my
> way, save what I want and delete the rest, flag things for more review,
> etc.  Web forums force me to consume their content their way, and then
> when I maybe have a way to deal with it, they change things.  Also, I
> can easily edit email posts in vi until I get my message the way I want
> (for example, this paragraph started out as a sentence further down the
> message :) ).

It's true that the composer is a web thing rather than your own editor
(although there's browser plugins for that...). And it's also true that the
software changes and not necessarily on your timeline. But with that in
mind:

* Discourse does let you compose and save draft messages

* There's a handy "bookmark" feature which I use all the time. You can give
  a reason for bookmarking something so you remember later, and give it a
  future time to notify you.

> I tried loading https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ in Lynx, but it's
> way too "busy" to be able to visually browse it, and of course it has
> the "best viewed with JavaScript enabled" tag, which is usually
> kiss-of-death for Lynx users (in fact, I couldn't see a way to log in or
> post/comment).

I'm actually pretty impressed with how decent it is in elinks for a modern
website. I do think you need Javascript to post, though. (And our elinks
does not seem to be built with such support, which probably isn't sufficient
anyway, alas.)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:24:14AM +0300, Benson Muite wrote:
> However, it doesn't seem like we can hack on it to better suite
> community needs, for example to have the same functionality as mailing
> lists[2].  It is not standards driven and is primarily developed by one
> company - something that follows Apache way[3] or has a community
> governance process would be better in the long term for a large project
> with many contributors who have technical expertise.

We definitely _can_ hack on it to better fit community needs. Changes might
not automatically get accepted, but we've got a good relationship and I
don't expect any kind of antagonism if we have something important.

On 2) 
https://discourse.cmake.org/t/cmake-discourse-mailing-list-mode-incorrectly-personally-addresses-all-email/738
in particular... that's just the Cmake forum admin saying that the
particular thing doesn't exist, not a Discourse dev saying they won't take a
change. 

Although on that specific change Discourse attaches List-Id and other
standard email headers (as well as some specific X-Discourse headers) to
each message. Changing the To: line to be some list address could be done
with a plugin, but might actually have negative consequences for reliable
delivery.

> Email clients offer significant customizability that a one size fits all
> web interface cannot provide.  Mailing list mode for Discourse is
> helpful, but not at the same level as email lists, where once one has

"Mailing list mode" was a specific thing in earlier versions of Discourse —
it sent a notification for every message posted. This is kind of like going
to Hyperkitty and saying "subscribe me to all 600 lists". I don't recommend
that. Instead, choose specific tags that you want to subscribe to, just as
you would subscribe to individual mailing lists.

I have a post about this and Fedora Discussion specifically:

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/navigating-fedora-discussion-tags-categories-and-concepts/3

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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F39 proposal: Fedora Images on Azure (Self-Contained Change proposal)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Images_On_Azure

This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.

== Summary ==

Azure is a massive public cloud and offering an official Fedora Cloud
image there would expand Fedora's user base. It also gives Fedora
Cloud users more options when selecting public clouds.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mhayden| Major Hayden]], [[User:davdunc| David Duncan]]
* Email: ma...@redhat.com, davd...@amazon.com

== Detailed Description ==
We want to:

* Get Azure images built via the existing Pungi processes
* Publish Azure images via Azure's image gallery
* Test these images during regularly scheduled Fedora Cloud test days
before final release
* Ensure that the Azure URN is linked on the Fedora website in the
cloud downloads section (similar to how AWS images are listed today)

== Feedback ==
Another alternative would be to offer a VHD download option from a
mirror, but that
would require users to download the image and upload it to Azure on
their own. This
could be challenging for users without technical skills to complete
these steps or for
users with slow network connectivity.

== Benefit to Fedora ==
* Expands Fedora's official image public cloud footprint to Azure
(currently just AWS and GCP)
* Allows Azure customers to launch official Fedora images which were
tested before launch
* Raises awareness around Fedora Cloud images

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Isolated change that does not affect the OS itself
but does improve its availability in public clouds.
* Other developers: Does not affect other developers or features in Fedora.

* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/11398 #11398]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Alignment with Community Initiatives: N/A


== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
This is a net new offering in a cloud where Fedora was not previously offered.


== How To Test ==
* Verify that the Fedora image appears in Azure's image gallery
* Launch an Azure VM with the new Fedora image
* Complete the usual verification that is done on other clouds during
[https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230418.n.1_Cloud
test days]


== User Experience ==
Customers on Azure will notice that a new Fedora official images is
available to them.
Users of other platforms, such as workstation and server, will not see a change.
Customers of other clouds, such as AWS, will not see a change either.

== Dependencies ==
All dependencies are already packaged and tested. One of the biggest
is the Azure Linux
agent ({{package|WALinuxAgent}}), but it has been packaged in Fedora
for multiple releases and is
verified to work on Azure.


== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Blocks release? No


== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== Release Notes ==
Fedora Cloud Edition is now available for use in Microsoft Azure.


-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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F39 proposal: Fedora Images on Azure (Self-Contained Change proposal)

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Fedora_Images_On_Azure

This document represents a proposed Change. As part of the Changes
process, proposals are publicly announced in order to receive
community feedback. This proposal will only be implemented if approved
by the Fedora Engineering Steering Committee.

== Summary ==

Azure is a massive public cloud and offering an official Fedora Cloud
image there would expand Fedora's user base. It also gives Fedora
Cloud users more options when selecting public clouds.

== Owner ==
* Name: [[User:mhayden| Major Hayden]], [[User:davdunc| David Duncan]]
* Email: ma...@redhat.com, davd...@amazon.com

== Detailed Description ==
We want to:

* Get Azure images built via the existing Pungi processes
* Publish Azure images via Azure's image gallery
* Test these images during regularly scheduled Fedora Cloud test days
before final release
* Ensure that the Azure URN is linked on the Fedora website in the
cloud downloads section (similar to how AWS images are listed today)

== Feedback ==
Another alternative would be to offer a VHD download option from a
mirror, but that
would require users to download the image and upload it to Azure on
their own. This
could be challenging for users without technical skills to complete
these steps or for
users with slow network connectivity.

== Benefit to Fedora ==
* Expands Fedora's official image public cloud footprint to Azure
(currently just AWS and GCP)
* Allows Azure customers to launch official Fedora images which were
tested before launch
* Raises awareness around Fedora Cloud images

== Scope ==
* Proposal owners: Isolated change that does not affect the OS itself
but does improve its availability in public clouds.
* Other developers: Does not affect other developers or features in Fedora.

* Release engineering: [https://pagure.io/releng/issue/11398 #11398]
* Policies and guidelines: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Trademark approval: N/A (not needed for this Change)
* Alignment with Community Initiatives: N/A


== Upgrade/compatibility impact ==
This is a net new offering in a cloud where Fedora was not previously offered.


== How To Test ==
* Verify that the Fedora image appears in Azure's image gallery
* Launch an Azure VM with the new Fedora image
* Complete the usual verification that is done on other clouds during
[https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230418.n.1_Cloud
test days]


== User Experience ==
Customers on Azure will notice that a new Fedora official images is
available to them.
Users of other platforms, such as workstation and server, will not see a change.
Customers of other clouds, such as AWS, will not see a change either.

== Dependencies ==
All dependencies are already packaged and tested. One of the biggest
is the Azure Linux
agent ({{package|WALinuxAgent}}), but it has been packaged in Fedora
for multiple releases and is
verified to work on Azure.


== Contingency Plan ==
* Contingency mechanism: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Contingency deadline: N/A (not a System Wide Change)
* Blocks release? No


== Documentation ==
N/A (not a System Wide Change)

== Release Notes ==
Fedora Cloud Edition is now available for use in Microsoft Azure.


-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Jaroslav Prokop

On 4/21/23 17:42, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:50:42AM +0200, Jarek Prokop wrote:

also drives us towards more scattered communications. Our infamous
mega-threads are not really effective for getting to community
consensus, and tend to bring out the worst in us.

Passionate people generate passionate discussion.

The only thing you will gain by a forum is that at the point
the message will not be deemed appropriate, it will probably
be deleted or "beatified" by the mod team. The passion from our
human nature will not go away with a platform change.

That's true -- and I'm not looking to get rid of passion, or silence
opinions. But when something is _really_ out of line (often written in the
heat of the moment), it's better to have options to ... as you say,
beautify* the conversation. That makes it better for other people
participating, and better for the person who has a chance to make their
point in a more constructive way.

* also, to fix typos :)
Oh, probably an important related feature I noticed after looking at
Chris Adams' response,
I had a small concern about people changing messages too radically,
where the conversation will then lose meaning,

the software actually supports history and colorful diffs.

[snip]

A discussion to a technical change, for me, will forever be in a ticket.
No matter the "wider discussion platform" projects will always have
bug trackers where one can create a ticket.

Of course. That's not what I'm talking about. Consider for example this:
https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2817. That's not about the technical decision
itself -- it's an branch of the conversation that should have been here.

biased towards those for whom it is working just fine. But, core Fedora
development discussion can’t be limited to that ever-shrinking group.
Consider who isn’t here. The problems are real, and the trend isn’t in
a good direction.

But, is it shrinking due to a platform, or something other?

I don't think Fedora contribution and activity overall are shrinking. And
I'm quite convinced that the platform is part of it.

It makes me want to try discourse out, not saying I'll stick around,

I'm glad to hear that.

I am, luckily, not paid to read forums
with no threading. IMO, a stream of posts with mentions of previous
posts is not threading. Threading begins and ends
on new topic posts AFAICT on discourse.

It's not presented as a tree, but there _are_ threads of replies.
Heh, sounds like a fun side project to try to transform it into a tree
structure.

If you see
something like "2 replies" under a particular post, you can click that and
the view will be restricted to just those replies, which you can then follow
further.

Example:https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/future-of-encryption-in-fedora-desktop-variants/80397/83?replies_to_post_number=83
Finally, noticed what it does, it made me a bit confused as the first
response was the same as in the "global" flow of the topic,
but the message under it changed. I think that it should be better
visible that they are actually replies.

It seems to hide other replies and only show those that are part of the
"thread". Do they accept RFEs? :)
I think enhancing the visibility after I expand replies for the posts in
the "thread" would be better.

But also, yes — when something really diverges in Discourse, it should be a
new topic. A moderator can move things after the fact (like I did with
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/getting-systemd-homed-working-properly-on-fedora-workstation/81004)
but even better, when replying, you can create a linked topic. See
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/site-tip-create-linked-topics-for-deep-dives-or-tangents/34526

But I'd be happier if there was some
tangible metric how to measure if we got more *related to the topic*
engagement.
I would hate to see 20 "+1" posts from "random" users counted
towards "it is better now".

That's reasonable. Do you have suggestions for a good metric?

I'm afraid none that could be automated, but I am not one strong on metrics.
I'll just throw out some ideas:
1. Number of unique contributors
2. How many unique posts these contributors interacted with
3. "quality" of the post. I think one could go by the length and
verbosity of the post. E.g. "Yeah seems like a good change" is not as
valuable
as a deeper dive/analysis into a hypothetical problematic. (especially
if we consider that the platform has +1 equivalents in reactions :))

4. Number/frequency of interactions.

Maybe a combination of 1. and 4. would have value.

But we can worry about that a bit later than "right now".

In Project Discussion, each different Fedora team can have its own tag,
and you can subscribe to those that you’re interested in. Cross-posting
is easy: tag a post with multiple teams.

I'd be interested in having a kind of "crossroad sign", to direct me
towards tags what I would care about
from a packager perspective. Not happy about this change, but it

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:07:16AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > > * also, to fix typos :) 
> > 
> > So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
> > discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
> > people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
> > is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
> > XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
> > something completely different.
> 
> Do you mean maliciously? In that case, it's a matter of asking people to not
> do that.

I've seen it used that way, so that was my concern.

> Or do you mean that it makes the history of the conversation confusing? The
> history _is_ there — edited posts are marked as such and you can see the
> changes.

But that definitely mitigates that concern.  Most sites I've seen only
show you the edited version, with no history available (at least to
regular users).

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:07:16AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > * also, to fix typos :) 
> 
> So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
> discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
> people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
> is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
> XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
> something completely different.

Do you mean maliciously? In that case, it's a matter of asking people to not
do that.

Or do you mean that it makes the history of the conversation confusing? The
history _is_ there — edited posts are marked as such and you can see the
changes.

I think in many cases it's fine for edited posts to reflect an updated
understanding. If I post something and later realize I was confused, and so
fix it, in a year no one will care about the initial mistake and it's more
useful to have a "clean" post. (And any replies telling me I was wrong can
be deleted, having served their purpose.)

Of course, that kind of "timeline edit" isn't appropriate for something
that's a big decision or where the hashing-it-out _matters_. But it's very
useful for posts like 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-strategy-2028-a-topic-index-for-our-planning-process/46733

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 1:15 PM Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:47:24AM -0400, JT wrote:
> > While there definitely was an increase in interaction with people, that
> > also came at a cost.  Two or three devs having a conversation in a thread
> > would also have to deal with a dozen or so no- devs chiming in on the
> > situation and putting in their two cents. Time and again this would end
> up
> > being nothing more than a distraction, an argument, or causing a
> developer
> > to end up going to PMs to discuss the bug they were trying to resolve
> > instead of doing it openly.
>
> I don't want to do this prematurely, but we do have some options for
> handling this. We are (very soon now) going to have sync of FAS groups to
> Discourse. If we want or need to, we could limit posting in Project
> Discussion to people who are members of one or more FAS groups.
>
>
Oh nice, that'd definitely help prevent issues I dealt with before.
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:47:24AM -0400, JT wrote:
> While there definitely was an increase in interaction with people, that
> also came at a cost.  Two or three devs having a conversation in a thread
> would also have to deal with a dozen or so no- devs chiming in on the
> situation and putting in their two cents. Time and again this would end up
> being nothing more than a distraction, an argument, or causing a developer
> to end up going to PMs to discuss the bug they were trying to resolve
> instead of doing it openly.

I don't want to do this prematurely, but we do have some options for
handling this. We are (very soon now) going to have sync of FAS groups to
Discourse. If we want or need to, we could limit posting in Project
Discussion to people who are members of one or more FAS groups.


-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:14:33PM +0200, Peter Boy wrote:
> You put it very nicely. I have been desperately trying to follow new posts
> under the tag #server via email notification. Total failure. I missed
> everything.

What could have made that go better?

> A nice collection of "bells and whistles" just doesn't cut it yet.
> Currently, it is far too unreliable for systematic and long-term
> professional activities.
> 
> And it is structured in an undercomplex way. Try to find something further
> back in time. You must have a lot of boredom. A simple grouping by
> year/month like the mailing lists is very comfortable in comparison.

There isn't (as far as I know) a browsable year/month view, but you can
limit searches with before and after:
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/search?q=%23server-wg%20after%3A2021-01-01%20before%3A2021-02-01


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Jonathan Corbet

Matthew Miller  writes:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:45:31AM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
>> I will just make the point that, when you make this switch, you will be
>> missing people as well.  Projects that switch to forum systems, to a
>> great extent, go dark for people who aren't immersed in them all the
>> time.  Keeping up with fedora-devel takes very little of my time;
>> keeping up with Discourse instances is a much slower affair.
>
> What could we do to make that easier for you?

A decent NNTP feed (or set of feeds) would be wonderful :)

Otherwise, I don't know.  Invent a decent federated system that keeps
the good parts of email while addressing the many bad parts?

I guess I should give the Discourse email mode another try.  It was
painful last time, but it's been a little while and may have improved.
But even if it's perfect, dealing with a lot of accounts on
project-specific walled gardens is always going to increase the pain
level.  Perhaps I'm just not made for the world we have built...

Thanks,

jon
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:31:04AM +0300, Panu Matilainen wrote:
> I actually quite like Discourse - for a forum software - from
> experience related to various freetime activities.
> 
> However, Discourse replacing mailing lists WILL be the end of
> habitually skimming through everything that goes on devel (and a
> whole bunch of other lists) to spot issues that might be of my
> concern. The result will be in me being considerably less aware of
> what goes around in Fedora, rpm related or not.

You can get notifications of every post in tags you want to follow by email,
and presumably skim them in the same way. Maybe there's something we could
do to make that better for you -- can you help me understand what doesn't
work well?

We have another feature which might be of interest: we have enabled the
"saved searches" plugin. You provide search queries, and whenever there is a
new patch, you get a notification. (You can decide if you want these
immediately, hourly, daily, or weekly.)

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/new-site-feature-saved-searches-get-notifications-if-a-new-post-matches/46892

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 09:38:26AM +0300, Alexander Bokovoy wrote:
> My main trouble with Discourse and other places where I try to help
> people with answers to their questions is that forums promote a drive-by
> questions without further engagement. This experience is opposite to
> what forum proponents are claiming but I see it pretty consistently on
> Discourse, on Stackoverflow sites, on Reddit and in many other places.

I think some of that is natural in any support forum. The same thing happens
on the Fedora Users' mailing list.

> In my area, identity management and authentication, the topics are
> complex enough to want to help others but lack of further engagement
> simply kills any interest to use a particular discussion board. If
> people asking questions aren't interested in getting the answers or even
> tying in the ends for their own questions, it comes hard to keep an
> interest in helping those people again and again.
> 
> I can point you to one specific topic on Fedora Discourse as an example:
> https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-login-bug-having-a-128-character-password-breaks-otp-and-will-lock-users-out-of-account/78960

Well, in that case, I think the person was primarily interested in getting
access to their account back, not the underlying bug. Justin helped them
find where to file a ticket, and presumably everything was resolved from
their point of view.


> I would have supposed that someone would follow-up, right? As a
> FreeIPA maintainer in Fedora, as an upstream FreeIPA contributor and a
> contact for security issues, I have never been contacted with either
> details for what the thread claims to happen or never got any follow-up
> on the thread to my comments.

I really don't think that's a _tooling_ issue.

> 
> This is an experience I want to avoid. If this is what Matthew is
> proposing a Fedora development discussions to be, then sorry, this is
> not an improvement.

Well, no. It is not what I am proposing.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:07:16AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > * also, to fix typos :) 
> 
> So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
> discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
> people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
> is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
> XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
> something completely different.

Sure that is possible, but lets not assume nor optimize for malicious
engagement. We should be optimizing for honest engagement because our
contributors are decent people. The vast majority of the time when
people go back to edit messages it will be to correct mistakes/typos,
or syntax errors in formatting text, and so a clear benefit.

In the unlikely / rare event that someone did maliciously change the
original message for some nefarious reason, other users can call them
out, and in the worst case moderators could take action. I very much
doubt that would happen enough to be a problem worth worrying about
in a constructive community environment like Fedora.

With regards,
Daniel
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Jaroslav Prokop



On 4/21/23 18:07, Chris Adams wrote:

Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:

* also, to fix typos :)

So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
something completely different.
Hmm, interesting, seems like the platform is able to do a message based 
diff,


so if you edit your message, history is actually visible!

See for example this message from some of Matt's links I got open
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/future-of-encryption-in-fedora-desktop-variants/80397/65
There is a pencil with a number, click that, you can see a diff.

So I don't think that I have to be that concerned that someone will want 
to radically change their messages.



It kind of goes back to who "owns" (and I don't mean in the legal sense)
the content.  When the content is held on a server, the server owner has
an editorial control that can be problematic.

Fixing typos sounds nice, but... just don't make typos, or proofread. :)___
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Todd Zullinger

TLDR; I'm in the "please, not a web forum" camp, but I also
feel like this is effectively a foregone conclusion,
unfortunately.

As a maintainer of a small number of packages, I follow
devel to keep up with changes affecting the distribution and
occasionally chime in or find areas where I can help in some
way.

I have gained an immense amount of knowledge about Fedora
this way as well as a strong appreciation for the folks
doing the heavy lifting.

I've tried to use discourse a bit and find it to be like
every other web forum -- heavy to load and frustrating to
work with.  My reasons match what a number of other folks
here have already said.

In particular, I don't like moving from an email discussion
method where each participant can choose their own client
and tools to work as they want to a web interface which is
one-size-fits-all (or none, as often everyone loses
something).

I'd be among those who are simply less informed and engaged
in the Fedora development community if things move to a web
forum.  If there are a lot more gains in doing so, I wish
you well in the endeavor.

Thanks,

-- 
Todd


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:45:31AM -0600, Jonathan Corbet wrote:
> I will just make the point that, when you make this switch, you will be
> missing people as well.  Projects that switch to forum systems, to a
> great extend, go dark for people who aren't immersed in them all the
> time.  Keeping up with fedora-devel takes very little of my time;
> keeping up with Discourse instances is a much slower affair.

What could we do to make that easier for you?


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:27:06AM -0400, Robert Marcano via devel wrote:
> I forgot to add. Discourse is worse for mobile users, the "app" was
> just an embedded web browser, the only thing efficient it did was to
> get a notification and remembering your session, everything else is
> worse that writing an email on a email client for phones.

For what it's worth, I use Discourse on my phone all the time. As you say,
the app is just a thin wrapper around the mobile web UI, but I like that UI
well enough.

And the wrapper is nice as a "hub" for various discourse sites, where I can
see all of the notifications in one place.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 12:07 PM Chris Adams  wrote:

>
> So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
> discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
> people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
> is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
> XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
> something completely different.
>
> It kind of goes back to who "owns" (and I don't mean in the legal sense)
> the content.  When the content is held on a server, the server owner has
> an editorial control that can be problematic.
>
> Fixing typos sounds nice, but... just don't make typos, or proofread. :)
> --
> Chris Adams 
>
>
Usually when people edit messages there's a notation that it was edited.
Some even note the number of times something has been edited, and by
whom, including when mods/admin edit it.  I forget what options discourse
has for that.  But also, when you are quoting someone on a forum, if they
go back and change their message, i dont recall ever seeing a forum where
it auto-updated the quote replies.  So the person's original message will
still show, however that does cause a bit of confusion when a new reader
comes to the thread and sees a quote that doesn't match what they see in
that person's post.  There was a forum somewhere that the edit message
would say "This post was edited by ${user} after replies by ${user2},
${user3}, ${user4}" which helped eliminate that... but I believe that may
have been something custom that the admin put in place.
Also there's usually a time limit in place for edits... I've seen it as low
as 30 seconds on some forums which negates some of this issue.
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 05:07:28PM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
> No, not really. I advised you to look into it, because you may actually get
> more from it personally, than you currently expect. I haven't proposed it to
> become a required Fedora activity, I gave you the unsolicited advice. Which
> maybe I shouldn't have.

What kicked off this thread was a proposal to make "checking out" (and 
then actually utilizing) discussion.f.o a *required* activity to 
participate in Fedora development.  

> And now you try to tell me that "coolness" is defined by numbers. Sorry, I
> don't agree. I don't need everyone in the world to work on Linux
> distribution. I don't want majority of people to work on Linux distribution.
> I don't even need "more than in Ubuntu" people to work on Fedora Linux
> distribution. That is not the point at all, and it is not what makes things
> cool.

Numbers/engagement/etc was one of the justifications behind this 
proposal to ditch mailing lists, and my point was that "numbers" was a 
pretty worthless metric because of the very reasons you just listed.

That said, I don't think anyone can reasonably disagree that the 
"coolness" factor strongly affects the numbers, because people follow 
the funding.  Distros, like most(all) other infrastructure, were never 
"cool" in that big-picture context.  I think that's a good thing, as it 
means those participating are more likely to have a genuine passion for 
it.

> But with my Fedora Ambassador hat on I can tell you that the problem we see
> right now is not that we don't have people coming to Fedora. We have a
> problem helping people to connect to where the work is happening in a way
> that they can contribute.

Of course.  But this also goes for those that are _already_ contributing.

> And this includes both mentoring them to be able to contribute, but also
> accepting the fact that new people can bring new ideas, and we should
> provide them space to work on them and not just expect them to follow and do
> what they were told to do.

This also goes for those that are already contributing.  It's not just 
about the new people.

> The middle doesn't magically appear out of nowhere. It appears when you
> build paths for newbies to grow into it. And it it sort of responsibility of
> the current middle to grow the next one.

I disagree; it's the _responsibility_ of the *leaders* to grow (and 
sustain!) the middle.  Ultimately this comes down to defining the sort 
of culture the community is expected to have -- and the tools must be 
chosen to support/enable that culture.

(It's not the middle's responsibility because they are acting mostly 
individually and mostly powerless; their main power comes from the 
ballot box, except in rare situations where someone rises up through 
sheer volume of meritocrous contributions)

> We think the communication channels change is one of the initiatives which
> helps with that. Mentorship is the other.

Mentorship is necessary (from leaders to the middle, and the middle to 
the newbs) but doesn't scale well due to the mutual time committment 
necessary.

 - Solomon
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Dowling Park, FL  speachy (libra.chat)

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Mattia Verga via devel

Il 21/04/23 17:37, Simo Sorce ha scritto:
> On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 10:44 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 08:24:48PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
>>> Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
 I am proposing that over the course of 2023, starting with the Changes
 process, we move Fedora development conversations from this mailing list to
 the Discourse-based Fedora Discussion.
>>> I feel this is a case of trading one group of people (email list users)
>>> for a different group of people (web forum users).
>> I don't think this is _really_ a "there are two kinds of people in the
>> world..." situation. Of course there are some people who have preferences
>> (strong or weak) for one or the other, and completely legitimate pros and
>> cons to each. But I don't want to "trade" anyone. I'd like to bring everyone
>> along.
>>
>>
>>> I have seen this
>>> done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
>>> always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
>>> users" group.
>> Is there anything which could be different this time which would make it
>> better for you?
> So I am trying to see how it works to follow those discussions via
> email (sorry this is the only way, following via web simply doesn't
> work for me).
>
> So I registered the account, added the email I want to get
> notifications at, and selected a few topics.
>
> First impressions.
>
> ...

Discourse docs say that it can be fully used like a mailing list, but it
mention a "mailing list" mode that I can't find in Fedora Discourse
profile preferences... is that feature available?

Mattia

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> * also, to fix typos :) 

So, I will say this is kind of a peeve of mine about server-based
discussion systems (whether web or client like Slack/Discord): allowing
people to edit messages, especially after people have replied to them,
is a bad idea.  Person 1 says "we should do XYZ", somebody replies "no
XYZ is bad", and person 1 can go change their original message to say
something completely different.

It kind of goes back to who "owns" (and I don't mean in the legal sense)
the content.  When the content is held on a server, the server owner has
an editorial control that can be problematic.

Fixing typos sounds nice, but... just don't make typos, or proofread. :)
-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 08:24:48PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > I have seen this
> > done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
> > always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
> > users" group.
> 
> Is there anything which could be different this time which would make it
> better for you?

I really can't imagine a change for me (and I apologize if that sounds
really "grumpy old man"... which I guess it starting to apply to me,
since I was in college when a friend told me about some guy in Finland
saying "hey Minix people...").  It really comes down to how I use a
computer I guess; I am highly keyboard-focused, and I haven't seen a web
forum yet that can handle that.  Some have a few keyboard shortcuts, but
they rarely fill the whole use and often are not well-maintained.

Email lets me have full control of how I consume it.  I can sort it my
way, save what I want and delete the rest, flag things for more review,
etc.  Web forums force me to consume their content their way, and then
when I maybe have a way to deal with it, they change things.  Also, I
can easily edit email posts in vi until I get my message the way I want
(for example, this paragraph started out as a sentence further down the
message :) ).

So for web-based forums and such, they are very casual use for me, where
I might drop in occasionally, but mostly just when searching for info.
When I've tried web forums before (like when Red Hat killed off their
mailing lists), I tend to lose interest and stop going pretty quickly
(maybe it's an ADHD thing there, I don't know).  I have a bookmark
folder of a handful of web forums, and when I look at it, I mostly see
sites I haven't visited in months or years.

The only GUI-based communication tools I have stuck with are Slack and
Discord, which I can run largely with a keyboard.  Even there, I'm only
in a small number of servers (Slack is mostly just for work at this
point).

I tried loading https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/ in Lynx, but it's
way too "busy" to be able to visually browse it, and of course it has
the "best viewed with JavaScript enabled" tag, which is usually
kiss-of-death for Lynx users (in fact, I couldn't see a way to log in or
post/comment).

I'm a small-time packager in Fedora, just a few leaf packages, but I do
try to contribute to development discussions based on my experience and
use cases.  I don't like dropping out of it, but that just feels like
the likely outcome.

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

>  But with my Fedora Ambassador hat on I can tell you that the problem
we see right now is not that we don't have people coming to Fedora. We have
a problem helping people to connect to where the work is happening in a way
that they can contribute.
> And this includes both mentoring them to be able to contribute, but also
accepting the fact that new people can bring new ideas, and we should
provide them space to work on them and not just expect them to follow and
do what they were told to do.

So I'm interested by what you bring up here.  Have you run into situations
where someone wanted to contribute to development but was unwilling to use
a mailing list?  With a community as big as Fedora and with a multitude of
ways that people can contribute, I'm curious what the roadblocks you are
seeing for people wanting to get into development.  I can completely
understand if someone wants to join mindshare, D, outreachy, or docs,
etc... that they might find a mailinglist to cumbersome to work with.  Have
you run into sitautions where people wanted to get involved in development
but were having issues with a mailing list?

I'm involved in many things FOSS related, from development, to outreach, to
media production, etc.  I've found that in those different 'ecosystems' for
lack of a better word, there are some tools that are more effective than
others.  I think that there are some things that happen on the mailing list
that might certainly benefit from moving to discourse, but I also feel that
there are some things that benefit from the current system until something
new is designed.







On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:07 AM Aleksandra Fedorova 
wrote:

> On 4/21/23 16:15, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:42:20AM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
> >> That's a slight exaggeration of course, but so is your statement. People
> >> come to Fedora via many ways. But I doubt any of it starts with e-mail
> >> nowadays. And the fact that you don't see newcomers _here_ actually
> proves
> >> the point, isn't it?
> >
> > Correlation is not causation.
> >
> > Distro building isn't "fun", or sexy.  There are much more immediately
> > (and fiscally) rewarding things for "newcomers" to mess with.
> >
> >> Let's not get into a "who would you miss more" competition and work on a
> >> solution which actually helps us to bridge the gap and allows us to
> >> compromise between different use cases.
> >
> > Oh, I know my contributions here are miniscule, but my point is that
> > we'd lose a ton of voices that collectively represent a ton of
> > experience and use cases.
> >
> >> In all seriousness, I would advise you to hang out at the current
> >> discussion.fedoraproject.org and feel the vibe a bit.
> >
> > You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at 
> > and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.
> > My total available time/attention is fixed, which means this "hanging
> > out" will have to come at the cost of something else that frankly
> > matters _more_.  And I won't personally gain anything from the effort --
> > at _best_ it will break even vs what I have now.
>
> No, not really. I advised you to look into it, because you may actually
> get more from it personally, than you currently expect. I haven't
> proposed it to become a required Fedora activity, I gave you the
> unsolicited advice. Which maybe I shouldn't have.
>
> >> Distributions _are_ cool and sexy. And people have ideas and interest in
> >> them. Some of them are totally wrong and misplaced, some may be very
> old,
> >> and some are better. But that's how it should be.
> >
> > I'm sorry, the numbers are _not_ on your side here, not just with Fedora
> > itself but the bigger picture of distributions in general.  It's not
> > "email" that is keeping folks away, it's the nature of the work.  And
> > _work_ it absolutely is.
>
> And now you try to tell me that "coolness" is defined by numbers. Sorry,
> I don't agree. I don't need everyone in the world to work on Linux
> distribution. I don't want majority of people to work on Linux
> distribution. I don't even need "more than in Ubuntu" people to work on
> Fedora Linux distribution. That is not the point at all, and it is not
> what makes things cool.
>
> But with my Fedora Ambassador hat on I can tell you that the problem we
> see right now is not that we don't have people coming to Fedora. We have
> a problem helping people to connect to where the work is happening in a
> way that they can contribute.
>
> And this includes both mentoring them to be able to contribute, but also
> accepting the fact that new people can bring new ideas, and we should
> provide them space to work on them and not just expect them to follow
> and do what they were told to do.
>
> >
> > (And I say this as someone who has spent most of the past couple of
> > decades working on low-level infrastructure-type stuff. Sure, I find it
> > fun/enjoyable but I freely acknowledge I am

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:50:42AM +0200, Jarek Prokop wrote:
> >also drives us towards more scattered communications. Our infamous
> >mega-threads are not really effective for getting to community
> >consensus, and tend to bring out the worst in us.
> 
> Passionate people generate passionate discussion.
> 
> The only thing you will gain by a forum is that at the point
> the message will not be deemed appropriate, it will probably
> be deleted or "beatified" by the mod team. The passion from our
> human nature will not go away with a platform change.

That's true -- and I'm not looking to get rid of passion, or silence
opinions. But when something is _really_ out of line (often written in the
heat of the moment), it's better to have options to ... as you say,
beautify* the conversation. That makes it better for other people
participating, and better for the person who has a chance to make their
point in a more constructive way.

* also, to fix typos :) 

[snip]
> A discussion to a technical change, for me, will forever be in a ticket.
> No matter the "wider discussion platform" projects will always have
> bug trackers where one can create a ticket.

Of course. That's not what I'm talking about. Consider for example this:
https://pagure.io/fesco/issue/2817. That's not about the technical decision
itself -- it's an branch of the conversation that should have been here.

> >biased towards those for whom it is working just fine. But, core Fedora
> >development discussion can’t be limited to that ever-shrinking group.
> >Consider who isn’t here. The problems are real, and the trend isn’t in
> >a good direction.
> But, is it shrinking due to a platform, or something other?

I don't think Fedora contribution and activity overall are shrinking. And
I'm quite convinced that the platform is part of it.

> It makes me want to try discourse out, not saying I'll stick around,

I'm glad to hear that. 

> I am, luckily, not paid to read forums
> with no threading. IMO, a stream of posts with mentions of previous
> posts is not threading. Threading begins and ends
> on new topic posts AFAICT on discourse.

It's not presented as a tree, but there _are_ threads of replies. If you see
something like "2 replies" under a particular post, you can click that and
the view will be restricted to just those replies, which you can then follow
further.

Example: 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/future-of-encryption-in-fedora-desktop-variants/80397/83?replies_to_post_number=83

But also, yes — when something really diverges in Discourse, it should be a
new topic. A moderator can move things after the fact (like I did with
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/getting-systemd-homed-working-properly-on-fedora-workstation/81004)
but even better, when replying, you can create a linked topic. See
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/site-tip-create-linked-topics-for-deep-dives-or-tangents/34526

> But I'd be happier if there was some
> tangible metric how to measure if we got more *related to the topic*
> engagement.
> I would hate to see 20 "+1" posts from "random" users counted
> towards "it is better now".

That's reasonable. Do you have suggestions for a good metric?

> >In Project Discussion, each different Fedora team can have its own tag,
> >and you can subscribe to those that you’re interested in. Cross-posting
> >is easy: tag a post with multiple teams.
> I'd be interested in having a kind of "crossroad sign", to direct me
> towards tags what I would care about
> from a packager perspective. Not happy about this change, but it
> would make my experience a bit better...

There's a big _index_ at https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/tags, but
that's probably bit much (while at the same time not containing enough
description). What would this "sign" ideally look like to you?

> >That said, it is web-first software. (Or mobile, if that’s your thing.)
> >That requires some adjustment, I know. I hope opening up a Fedora
> >Discussion tab – or keeping one open — becomes an easy habit.
> If I was a volunteer that's the thing I'd remember once in a blue
> moon that it even exists.
> But I guess that's just person to person :).

There _are_ email notifications, and you can interact by replying to them.
(You can even +1 or <3.)

There is also a "digest" mail sent automatically if you're not active,
showing active topics possibly of interest, which can serve as a
more-frequent-than-blue-moon reminder. (You can turn this off, of course.)

> As a person in my early 20s, I hate how everything is becoming web centric
> and no one can convince me to feel otherwise. While I am hearing from
> varying people around me, how it must be bad using email, it provides
> client-side filtering unparalleled by any platform that I used in the
> past.

It's fine, but it's no NNTP. That was really the best. :)

Do take a look at

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/guide-to-interacting-with-this-site-by-email/25960

It's not perfect, but it's

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Simo Sorce

On Fri, 2023-04-21 at 10:44 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 08:24:48PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> > Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > > I am proposing that over the course of 2023, starting with the Changes
> > > process, we move Fedora development conversations from this mailing list 
> > > to
> > > the Discourse-based Fedora Discussion.
> > 
> > I feel this is a case of trading one group of people (email list users)
> > for a different group of people (web forum users).  
> 
> I don't think this is _really_ a "there are two kinds of people in the
> world..." situation. Of course there are some people who have preferences
> (strong or weak) for one or the other, and completely legitimate pros and
> cons to each. But I don't want to "trade" anyone. I'd like to bring everyone
> along.
> 
> 
> > I have seen this
> > done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
> > always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
> > users" group.
> 
> Is there anything which could be different this time which would make it
> better for you?

So I am trying to see how it works to follow those discussions via
email (sorry this is the only way, following via web simply doesn't
work for me).

So I registered the account, added the email I want to get
notifications at, and selected a few topics.

First impressions.

It is absolutely confusing to figure out how to watch topics.
If you select a category and a topic you do not get the notification
bell to watch them.
If you select just a topic you get it.
Topics are all in random order. When you select some topic by searching
you sometimes are then proposed a different one (? renames ?)

I found no way to watch all, and let my client sort it out ... which
would need client filtering, because the stupid gmail filtering can't
handle header fields (#@#%$@#).
And if you can't watch all it means you can watch only know topics, and
anything new will simply be missed.

It would be useful to be able to say "watch all except these specific
topics", which are the ones you realize are uninteresting to you and
explicitly start to filter out. I could do that filtering after
receiving though, so being able to watch all is the minimum requirement
to be able to follow anything. 

[late edit: in a plot twist, if you select a category, then you get a
new meta-tag call all-tags, and you can watch that ... I selected that
now and will see if I can block specific tags somehow later or filter
them on my end]

I couldn't find a place to list all the topics I am watching ... only
way I found so far is to click on all the tags in a notification to see
if any of them has the bell thingy ...

On the actual notifications I am receiving:

They come several minutes (at least 5 minutes, as the email is *sent*
that much later, and the sent date is set to when the email is sent,
not to when the post is made) after the actual message is posted in
discourse, I do not care much, I generally read asynchronously as well,
but it is sometimes annoying not to be able to establish the real time
a post was made.

The only way to know who posted is by looking at the From field, where
the description of the notification email address is changed to include
the display name of the poster. That is a bit confusing at times.

There is no formatting in the mail that tells me who is someone
replying to, or which message in the thread it was being replied to (I
disabled sending me the whole thread with each notification, I may re-
enable it).

The test part so far is otherwise decently rendered, and for image
posts it is clear enough that there is something to look at in the html
part. *however* the images are not embedded in the email, so all that
information is unavailable offline or for archival (and in my
configuration requires to actively pull images as I configured my
client to not pull 3rd party content automatically for privacy and
security reasons).

I have not tried to reply to anything, so I do not know how that will
fare.

-- 
Simo Sorce
RHEL Crypto Team
Red Hat, Inc

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Christopher Klooz



On 4/21/23 17:27, Daniel Alley wrote:

If one uses OpenPGP and if people verify it

As you mention, that's a big "if"
Absolutely, and if the majority does not verify in the devel mailing 
list, it is clearly an indicator that this type of security is not 
relevant here ;) But finally, I am not sufficiently involved in all of 
our mailing lists to know.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Daniel P . Berrangé

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:55:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> * Kevin P. Fleming [21/04/2023 10:03] :
> >
> > lots of people say "I decide
> > what to read based on what I see in my email client", but when the subject
> > of the emails doesn't reflect their contents, that's a losing proposition.
> 
> I agree there's a huge lack of netiquette in Fedora's mailing lists,
> with wholesale quoting, top-posting, subjects not being updated, etc but
> changing mediums seems far more expensive than asking people to post
> emails that are easier to read.

I generally find the term "netiquette" to be quite unpleasant, because
it is historically frequently applied in user hostile manner, where
people repeatedly rebuke (new) contributors/participants who don't
follow the "rules", which has the effect of discouraging engagement
with the project.

Contributor guidelines are fine, but it is important to accept, expect
and tolerate that people are *NOT* going to following the guidelines,
for a variety of reasons.

IMHO the application of "netiquette" rules in a particular scenario is
usually a sign that the tools being used are inadequate for the job
they're be applied to.

With regards,
Daniel
-- 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Daniel Alley

> If one uses OpenPGP and if people verify it

As you mention, that's a big "if"
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Re: Firecracker microVM manager

2023-04-21 Thread David Michael

Hi,

Following up on this, Firecracker has been accepted and submitted to
Fedora.  Thanks to Fabio for all of the Rust reviews.

F37 https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2023-dca8124d3b
F38 https://bodhi.fedoraproject.org/updates/FEDORA-2023-edcbcf18e0

Some quick comments on the TODO from the original e-mail:

On Sat, Mar 4, 2023 at 12:40 PM David Michael  wrote:
>   - The musl package adds /usr paths for compatibility with the compiler 
> --sysroot option.
>   - The rust compiler adds musl target subpackages.

Targeting musl was dropped after the initial discussion, so there is
no sandbox or seccomp filter in Fedora until that can be implemented
with dynamic linking glibc upstream.  I'll keep the Copr repo[0]
active for a while to provide musl builds.

>   - The kernel must set CONFIG_VIRTIO_MMIO_CMDLINE_DEVICES=y to be usable as 
> a guest.

I fixed this in rawhide during the 6.3 cycle, so it should eventually
trickle down into stable.

>   - About two dozen Rust crates must be added to Fedora (but a handful are 
> just new versions of existing packages).

All crate dependencies have been added to Fedora 37+.

If anyone would like to test the Bodhi updates, there are some example
commands to start a VM on the Copr repo.

Thanks.

David

[0] https://copr.fedorainfracloud.org/coprs/dm0/Firecracker
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Christopher Klooz



On 4/21/23 16:30, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:

On 4/21/23 15:25, Christopher Klooz wrote:

Just a slight addition about "archaic email" and related comments:

Email and its capability for being used in conjunction with OpenPGP 
ensures two major institutions in kernel development and elsewhere: 
"Trusting the developers, not infrastructure" [1], and, assume "any 
part of the infrastructure can be compromised at any time" [1]. This 
avoids single points of failure, and complements the chain of trust.


I am not sure if Discourse is capable to be used in conjunction with 
OpenPGP if it reformats contents or if it removes attachments (maybe 
someone knows?). This leads to the possibility that discourse 
introduces a single point of failure (or, single point of 
vulnerability), which breaks the above institutions.


Having said that, as far as I follow our devel mailing list, I think 
the argument above is of minor relevance, because I think this 
mailing list is not used to forward code or to do reviews. Signatures 
seem to be not omnipresent at the moment anyway.


From security or impersonation point of view our current mailing list 
is actually the worst. Both Matrix and Discourse are at least tied to 
FAS account. And while it can be considered a single point of failure, 
it is at least the one which exists and is properly maintained by the 
project.
The FAS account is useless if one has access to the infra, or if the 
latter has vulnerabilities (which can be social and technical). 
Misconfigurations also occur in complex infra. That's the point of 
avoiding single points of failure. If one uses OpenPGP and if people 
verify it, it is not relevant if the infra itself is the "worst" or not, 
because no one needs to trust it anyway (that's the point in the kernel 
mailing lists). By default, without ensuring integrity, every 
email-based mailing list that is used in Linux realms (and at all) falls 
in the "worst" category because of the concept/architecture of email.


Again, this does not mean that discourse is not suitable for us. Given 
what I see on the mailing lists, our mailing list contents seem to be 
not relevant for integrity, and mostly not signed at all.


I just read some comments where I had the perception that they are 
partly assuming things to be simpler than they are. There are reasons 
for traditional email mailing lists in some circumstances, they are not 
"generally obsolete", but this does not mean that this applies to our 
mailing lists.


Given what I see and where I am present in the mailing lists, I would be 
+1 for discourse. But we still have to consider and put forward all points.


So I think we are on the same page, I just added a point that has to be 
considered in advance: do we have >=1 mailing lists that have a need for 
independent "security of integrity"? I guess the answer is no, we do not 
have >=1. But I do not know all of our mailing lists and for what they 
are used.


We had the issue with impersonation over e-mail before, and that was 
not nice.


However, I just wanted to remind that the issue is a little more 
complex than just assuming "email is old and has to be replaced by 
modern": there is another consideration, too. And we have to be aware 
that if discourse does not support OpenPGP signatures practically, we 
loose the possibility to ensure "security of integrity" in the 
mailing list in cases WHEN it is necessary - IF there are such cases 
(which I cannot determine).


I think we really try hard to not oversimplify the conversation to the 
point of "old" vs "new", or "us" vs "them" approach, though many of 
the replies in this thread are pulling us into that direction.


Matthew's mail in my opinion does a good job to highlight that there 
is no single "we want a new shiny thing for newbies" driver behind the 
switch. There are multiple reasons for it. And making discussions more 
secure and better maintained is on that list too.


And like, hey, e-mail is a still a thing. Use it where you need it, 
and where it fits. There is no fight against the technology.


But for this particular purpose within this particular environment the 
mailing list just doesn't work(*), and we see it.


(*) Works = provides shared space where old and new Fedora 
contributors can discuss changes and other project-related topics in a 
collaborative way to advance the project.


This is the problem which we must solve. And it won't go away on its 
own if just wait for it.


Again, the goal is not to fight against Fedora contributors using the 
e-mail technology. The goal is to find a solution.


And if the requirement for that solution is to improve the Discourse 
mail interface, can we at least try to look into it with open mind and 
actually list what needs to be done to make it work.


We are a group of FOSS developers using FOSS tools, and we have a year 
long plan to make the tool working for us and everyone else.


Let's maybe work on it?


Just some thoughts :)

[1]

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On 4/21/23 16:15, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote:

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:42:20AM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:

That's a slight exaggeration of course, but so is your statement. People
come to Fedora via many ways. But I doubt any of it starts with e-mail
nowadays. And the fact that you don't see newcomers _here_ actually proves
the point, isn't it?

Correlation is not causation.

Distro building isn't "fun", or sexy. There are much more immediately
(and fiscally) rewarding things for "newcomers" to mess with.

Let's not get into a "who would you miss more" competition and work on a
solution which actually helps us to bridge the gap and allows us to
compromise between different use cases.

Oh, I know my contributions here are miniscule, but my point is that
we'd lose a ton of voices that collectively represent a ton of
experience and use cases.

In all seriousness, I would advise you to hang out at the current
discussion.fedoraproject.org and feel the vibe a bit.

You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at
and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.
My total available time/attention is fixed, which means this "hanging
out" will have to come at the cost of something else that frankly
matters _more_. And I won't personally gain anything from the effort --
at _best_ it will break even vs what I have now.

No, not really. I advised you to look into it, because you may actually
get more from it personally, than you currently expect. I haven't
proposed it to become a required Fedora activity, I gave you the
unsolicited advice. Which maybe I shouldn't have.

Distributions _are_ cool and sexy. And people have ideas and interest in
them. Some of them are totally wrong and misplaced, some may be very old,
and some are better. But that's how it should be.

I'm sorry, the numbers are _not_ on your side here, not just with Fedora
itself but the bigger picture of distributions in general. It's not
"email" that is keeping folks away, it's the nature of the work. And
_work_ it absolutely is.

And now you try to tell me that "coolness" is defined by numbers. Sorry,
I don't agree. I don't need everyone in the world to work on Linux
distribution. I don't want majority of people to work on Linux
distribution. I don't even need "more than in Ubuntu" people to work on
Fedora Linux distribution. That is not the point at all, and it is not
what makes things cool.

But with my Fedora Ambassador hat on I can tell you that the problem we
see right now is not that we don't have people coming to Fedora. We have
a problem helping people to connect to where the work is happening in a
way that they can contribute.

And this includes both mentoring them to be able to contribute, but also
accepting the fact that new people can bring new ideas, and we should
provide them space to work on them and not just expect them to follow
and do what they were told to do.

(And I say this as someone who has spent most of the past couple of
decades working on low-level infrastructure-type stuff. Sure, I find it
fun/enjoyable but I freely acknowledge I am several standard deviations
from the mean)

It seems you feel like you are cornered, but it is you who put yourself in
the corner by ignoring the part of the community, which actually can and
wants to support you.

By that same token bananas could make themselves more appealing to
people that like oranges if they'd only be more orange-like.

This isn't me "putting myself in a corner", it's Fedora moving the tent
that I was underneath and expecting me to move with it. (Because they
either don't understand _why_ anyone wouldn't want to move, or
understand, and do it anyway. I can actually respect the latter
position, even if I think it's not going to yield the expected results.
But I think this is yet another case of the former)

But whatever, I won't lose any sleep over this. As I already mentioned,
I have plenty of other things to do, both in the F/OSS world and in
(gasp) meatspace where I won't have to look at yet another screen.

[1] Splitting into the "core" developers (ie those paid/compensated for
participating) and an endless summer of newbs seeking help/support;
the middle gets completely hollowed out.

FWIW, I stand by this analogy.

The middle doesn't magically appear out of nowhere. It appears when you
build paths for newbies to grow into it. And it it sort of
responsibility of the current middle to grow the next one.

We think the communication channels change is one of the initiatives
which helps with that. Mentorship is the other.

There are currently three initiatives under Sustainable Community
objective and everyone's feedback is welcome:

https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/fedora-strategy-2028-focus-area-review-community-sustainability/79277

- Solomon

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tangent on tag curation [was Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new]

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 06:01:51PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
> Well, I just opened the tags box and typed 'qa', and got...#fedora-qa ,
> #qa, and #qa-team . So it looks like some maintenance might be in
> order. :D Is there any way to 'guide' people to use 'standard' tags?

Ah, see, this is a great example of a tangential subthread

I'm still trying to figure out the best approach to one issue with tags
since we merged in Ask Fedora.

Tags span across categories, including tag watches (that is, subscriptions).
This means there's no way to subscribe to notifications for, e.g., #server
in Project Discussion and _not_ to those in Ask. Ask can be kind of firehose
of end-user queries, I want to make sure we have that option.

So, there is #server-wg (which we're probably going to rename to
#server-devel to be less obtuse) for that. These "team" tags can only be
used in the Project Discussion category (and Announcements). For qa, that's
#qa-team. Then, there are some things that are tagged #fedora-qa in Ask.

"fedora-qa" is not particularly consistent, but #qa alone is kind of
ambiguous and would get misused. As it was, #qa was set up as a synonym of
#qa-team -- that's unnecessary and I've removed it.

Overall, tags in Ask are more of a wild territory. We discussed and have
some general consensus on how they should be used:
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/how-should-we-use-tags-in-the-ask-fedora-category/45221
and I do a kind of lackadaisical periodic curation. (Tags can be created by
anyone with a certain forum trust level, which scales with participation.
But they can only be edited and removed by admins.)

(Although actually the emails triggered by notifications _do_ include
`X-Discourse-Tags` and `X-Discourse-Category` headers, so if that's the
your primary way of interacting, you _can_ do something with them. But it
doesn't apply to on-site notifications.)

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Peter Boy



> Am 21.04.2023 um 14:27 schrieb Chris Adams :
> 
> I can't
> automatically keep copies and archive them.  For example, I can in
> seconds tell you when my first post here was

This is an extremely important criterion to consider when renewing our 
communications tools.

I can arrange information that I find important in a way that makes it quick 
and easy to find.

In discouse, this could perhaps be simulated by giving everyone a virtual 
repository for copies (links). 

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 04:55:00PM +0200, Emmanuel Seyman wrote:
> I agree there's a huge lack of netiquette in Fedora's mailing lists,
> with wholesale quoting, top-posting, subjects not being updated, etc but
> changing mediums seems far more expensive than asking people to post
> emails that are easier to read.

Not to mention these problems won't go away just because it's now hosted 
on a web page..

 - Solomon
-- 
Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email)
  @pizza:shaftnet dot org   (matrix)
Dowling Park, FL  speachy (libra.chat)


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Re: Self Introduction: Štěpán Horáček

2023-04-21 Thread Benjamin Beasley

I have sponsored Štěpán (shoracek) under the co-maintainer section of the 
packager sponsor policy. Welcome, and happy packaging!
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Emmanuel Seyman

* Kevin P. Fleming [21/04/2023 10:03] :
>
> lots of people say "I decide
> what to read based on what I see in my email client", but when the subject
> of the emails doesn't reflect their contents, that's a losing proposition.

I agree there's a huge lack of netiquette in Fedora's mailing lists,
with wholesale quoting, top-posting, subjects not being updated, etc but
changing mediums seems far more expensive than asking people to post
emails that are easier to read.

Emmanuel
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

>  I am very much in favor of modernizing our communication tools. But I
don't think this is the way to go (but I don't know anything better, except
maybe a more "traditional", more structured forum).

I'm up for modernizing things and making them more efficient as well,
though as Matthew replied to me earlier, that's not his reason for
suggesting it.

Having taken some more time to consider this and thinking about the past,
I've actually sort of already experienced this when I was a PuppyLinux
dev.  At the time, we used a forum as their primary means of dev
communication.  (I think they still do, but I'm not sure)  Puppy is a
different dev community with many working on their own derivatives of puppy
but happily collaborating together with other devs doing their own side
thing.
While there definitely was an increase in interaction with people, that
also came at a cost.  Two or three devs having a conversation in a thread
would also have to deal with a dozen or so no- devs chiming in on the
situation and putting in their two cents. Time and again this would end up
being nothing more than a distraction, an argument, or causing a developer
to end up going to PMs to discuss the bug they were trying to resolve
instead of doing it openly.
The users who were jumping in on the thread weren't doing so maliciously,
they were actually trying to help, but due to not understanding the issue
it ended up doing the opposite.

The problem with mixing general community discussion and development
discussion... is you get exactly that as the outcome.

While this did sometimes result in a community member getting more involved
in development, I am/was an example of that, it also had the result of
causing devs to end up relying on direct emails or PMs to other devs to cut
through the chatter of most of the thread being non relevant or wasting
time to read through replies that are off topic or unhelpful.  And once
that communication went private, it was no longer accessible to any other
devs to read.  This resulted a few times in bugs being fixed in some custom
releases but not others, and devs having to re-engineer the same fix
because the solution that was found wasn't open.  That's less of a problem
in Fedora's case because it's not disjointed like Puppy, but it could still
happen if there was an issue a dev was dealing with patching source due to
some GCC update.

The fact is with a mailing list, someone has to intentionally seek it out
and sign up.  You dont run into the people casually ending up in developer
discussions around esoteric but important engineering discussions.

In the real world I'd relate it to this...
A small housing development somewhere, that occasionally has visitors who
just drive through to check the place out and look at the neighborhood.
Versus
When there's a detour on the highway and the entire interstate's traffic
ends up getting routed through that same small development to get back onto
the interstate later.
The first case is one that no one really gets upset at, the latter is one
that almost no one is happy with.

I feel like there is a delicate balance between not making communication
hard or putting up roadblocks... and making it so easy that the volume
becomes a distraction for those that are trying to get code work done.  We
know what we have now mostly works even though it's not very elegant and
has its own issues.   Updating tools, encouraging new people to get
involved in development are great things, but we dont want to take one step
forward which results in two steps back for development overall.
Maybe this can be addressed somehow with discourse, but I am clueless as to
how.
Hopefully those smarter than I can find the right balance for what we
should use.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 10:15 AM Peter Boy  wrote:

>
>
> > Am 21.04.2023 um 15:37 schrieb Emmanuel Seyman :
> >
> > * Fulko Hew [20/04/2023 21:18] :
> >>
> >> Can you say the same for Discourse?
> >
> > ... leave a lot to be desired. So much so that
>
> You put it very nicely. I have been desperately trying to follow new posts
> under the tag #server via email notification. Total failure. I missed
> everything.
>
> A nice collection of "bells and whistles" just doesn't cut it yet.
> Currently, it is far too unreliable for systematic and long-term
> professional activities.
>
> And it is structured in an undercomplex way. Try to find something further
> back in time. You must have a lot of boredom. A simple grouping by
> year/month like the mailing lists is very comfortable in comparison.
>
> And I think that's not what discourse was originally designed for. We are
> now trying to squeeze in something that works "somehow". An 'egg-laying,
> milk-gearing  woolly pig' like with the infamous SAP software in some
> companies. And the problems that Matthew accurately describes (lengthy
> discussion, abusive discussion style, etc) cannot be solved by this, in my
> opinion.
>
> I am very much in favor of modernizing our communication

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Jonathan Corbet

I suppose it's ironically suitable that my first attempt to send the
following failed because I wasn't actually subscribed to the list...

Matthew Miller  writes:

> We’re missing people
> 

I will just make the point that, when you make this switch, you will be
missing people as well.  Projects that switch to forum systems, to a
great extend, go dark for people who aren't immersed in them all the
time.  Keeping up with fedora-devel takes very little of my time;
keeping up with Discourse instances is a much slower affair.

I know I'm a grumpy old-timer, but I see this move to forum systems as a
powerful force putting projects into silos and isolating them from each
other.

Now get off my lawn, it's time to go watch Lawrence Welk...:)

jon
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 08:24:48PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
> Once upon a time, Matthew Miller  said:
> > I am proposing that over the course of 2023, starting with the Changes
> > process, we move Fedora development conversations from this mailing list to
> > the Discourse-based Fedora Discussion.
> 
> I feel this is a case of trading one group of people (email list users)
> for a different group of people (web forum users).  

I don't think this is _really_ a "there are two kinds of people in the
world..." situation. Of course there are some people who have preferences
(strong or weak) for one or the other, and completely legitimate pros and
cons to each. But I don't want to "trade" anyone. I'd like to bring everyone
along.


> I have seen this
> done multiple times over the years, tried to follow a few times, and
> always dropped off fairly rapidly.  I'm solidly in the "email list
> users" group.

Is there anything which could be different this time which would make it
better for you?

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new


On 4/21/23 15:25, Christopher Klooz wrote:

Just a slight addition about "archaic email" and related comments:

Email and its capability for being used in conjunction with OpenPGP 
ensures two major institutions in kernel development and elsewhere: 
"Trusting the developers, not infrastructure" [1], and, assume "any part 
of the infrastructure can be compromised at any time" [1]. This avoids 
single points of failure, and complements the chain of trust.


I am not sure if Discourse is capable to be used in conjunction with 
OpenPGP if it reformats contents or if it removes attachments (maybe 
someone knows?). This leads to the possibility that discourse introduces 
a single point of failure (or, single point of vulnerability), which 
breaks the above institutions.


Having said that, as far as I follow our devel mailing list, I think the 
argument above is of minor relevance, because I think this mailing list 
is not used to forward code or to do reviews. Signatures seem to be not 
omnipresent at the moment anyway.


From security or impersonation point of view our current mailing list 
is actually the worst. Both Matrix and Discourse are at least tied to 
FAS account. And while it can be considered a single point of failure, 
it is at least the one which exists and is properly maintained by the 
project.


We had the issue with impersonation over e-mail before, and that was not 
nice.


However, I just wanted to remind that the issue is a little more complex 
than just assuming "email is old and has to be replaced by modern": 
there is another consideration, too. And we have to be aware that if 
discourse does not support OpenPGP signatures practically, we loose the 
possibility to ensure "security of integrity" in the mailing list in 
cases WHEN it is necessary - IF there are such cases (which I cannot 
determine).


I think we really try hard to not oversimplify the conversation to the 
point of "old" vs "new", or "us" vs "them" approach, though many of the 
replies in this thread are pulling us into that direction.


Matthew's mail in my opinion does a good job to highlight that there is 
no single "we want a new shiny thing for newbies" driver behind the 
switch. There are multiple reasons for it. And making discussions more 
secure and better maintained is on that list too.


And like, hey, e-mail is a still a thing. Use it where you need it, and 
where it fits. There is no fight against the technology.


But for this particular purpose within this particular environment the 
mailing list just doesn't work(*), and we see it.


(*) Works = provides shared space where old and new Fedora contributors 
can discuss changes and other project-related topics in a collaborative 
way to advance the project.


This is the problem which we must solve. And it won't go away on its own 
if just wait for it.


Again, the goal is not to fight against Fedora contributors using the 
e-mail technology. The goal is to find a solution.


And if the requirement for that solution is to improve the Discourse 
mail interface, can we at least try to look into it with open mind and 
actually list what needs to be done to make it work.


We are a group of FOSS developers using FOSS tools, and we have a year 
long plan to make the tool working for us and everyone else.


Let's maybe work on it?


Just some thoughts :)

[1] 
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/maintainer-pgp-guide.html


Chris



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bookwar
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Peter Boy



> Am 21.04.2023 um 16:15 schrieb Solomon Peachy via devel 
> :
> 
> You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at  
> and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.  
> My total available time/attention is fixed, which means this "hanging 
> out" will have to come at the cost of something ...

+++…+++1  :-)
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 08:24:14AM +0300, Benson Muite wrote:
> As such, simply adopting it because it can be deployed may leave out 
> many contributors, in particular those who drive development forward.

I have made this point several times in other contexts; a new 
tool/workflow has to yield tangible improvements for the _existing_ 
contributor base.  Otherwise you're just going to trade away _current_
contributors for the _possibility_ of attracting new ones.

(In a volunteer context, that is)

 - Solomon
-- 
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  @pizza:shaftnet dot org   (matrix)
Dowling Park, FL  speachy (libra.chat)


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 11:42:20AM +0200, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:
> That's a slight exaggeration of course, but so is your statement. People
> come to Fedora via many ways. But I doubt any of it starts with e-mail
> nowadays. And the fact that you don't see newcomers _here_ actually proves
> the point, isn't it?

Correlation is not causation.

Distro building isn't "fun", or sexy.  There are much more immediately 
(and fiscally) rewarding things for "newcomers" to mess with.

> Let's not get into a "who would you miss more" competition and work on a
> solution which actually helps us to bridge the gap and allows us to
> compromise between different use cases.

Oh, I know my contributions here are miniscule, but my point is that 
we'd lose a ton of voices that collectively represent a ton of 
experience and use cases.

> In all seriousness, I would advise you to hang out at the current
> discussion.fedoraproject.org and feel the vibe a bit.

You kinda just demonstrated my point -- "hanging out at  
and feel the vibe" is going to take time, attention, and distruption.  
My total available time/attention is fixed, which means this "hanging 
out" will have to come at the cost of something else that frankly 
matters _more_.  And I won't personally gain anything from the effort -- 
at _best_ it will break even vs what I have now.

> Distributions _are_ cool and sexy. And people have ideas and interest in
> them. Some of them are totally wrong and misplaced, some may be very old,
> and some are better. But that's how it should be.

I'm sorry, the numbers are _not_ on your side here, not just with Fedora 
itself but the bigger picture of distributions in general.  It's not 
"email" that is keeping folks away, it's the nature of the work.  And 
_work_ it absolutely is.

(And I say this as someone who has spent most of the past couple of 
decades working on low-level infrastructure-type stuff. Sure, I find it 
fun/enjoyable but I freely acknowledge I am several standard deviations 
from the mean)

> It seems you feel like you are cornered, but it is you who put yourself in
> the corner by ignoring the part of the community, which actually can and
> wants to support you.

By that same token bananas could make themselves more appealing to 
people that like oranges if they'd only be more orange-like.

This isn't me "putting myself in a corner", it's Fedora moving the tent 
that I was underneath and expecting me to move with it.  (Because they 
either don't understand _why_ anyone wouldn't want to move, or 
understand, and do it anyway.  I can actually respect the latter 
position, even if I think it's not going to yield the expected results.  
But I think this is yet another case of the former)

But whatever, I won't lose any sleep over this.  As I already mentioned, 
I have plenty of other things to do, both in the F/OSS world and in 
(gasp) meatspace where I won't have to look at yet another screen.

> > [1] Splitting into the "core" developers (ie those paid/compensated for
> >  participating) and an endless summer of newbs seeking help/support;
> >  the middle gets completely hollowed out.

FWIW, I stand by this analogy.

 - Solomon
-- 
Solomon Peachypizza at shaftnet dot org (email)
  @pizza:shaftnet dot org   (matrix)
Dowling Park, FL  speachy (libra.chat)

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Peter Boy



> Am 21.04.2023 um 15:37 schrieb Emmanuel Seyman :
> 
> * Fulko Hew [20/04/2023 21:18] :
>> 
>> Can you say the same for Discourse?
> 
> ... leave a lot to be desired. So much so that

You put it very nicely. I have been desperately trying to follow new posts 
under the tag #server via email notification. Total failure. I missed 
everything. 

A nice collection of "bells and whistles" just doesn't cut it yet. Currently, 
it is far too unreliable for systematic and long-term professional activities. 

And it is structured in an undercomplex way. Try to find something further back 
in time. You must have a lot of boredom. A simple grouping by year/month like 
the mailing lists is very comfortable in comparison.

And I think that's not what discourse was originally designed for. We are now 
trying to squeeze in something that works "somehow". An 'egg-laying, 
milk-gearing  woolly pig' like with the infamous SAP software in some 
companies. And the problems that Matthew accurately describes (lengthy 
discussion, abusive discussion style, etc) cannot be solved by this, in my 
opinion.

I am very much in favor of modernizing our communication tools. But I don't 
think this is the way to go (but I don't know anything better, except maybe a 
more "traditional", more structured forum). 


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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Kevin P. Fleming


On 4/20/23 17:20, Matthew Miller wrote:


Most of the conversation was under the subject “Schedule for Tuesday's
FESCo Meeting (2023-01-03)”, because everything started as a reply to
that. That’s pretty easy to overlook. It’s possible for replies to
change  the subject when replying, but that can’t be done
retroactively, and then isn’t consistent (and it breaks threading in
Gmail, too).

At the risk of causing at least one of the problems that Matthew pointed 
out, this is the most important one for me: lots of people say "I decide 
what to read based on what I see in my email client", but when the 
subject of the emails doesn't reflect their contents, that's a losing 
proposition. I completely ignored the thread in question until a 
*different* thread referred to it and I learned about the conversation 
going on there.


On another note: I've been an active Discourse user since the 'early 
adopter' days, and frequent at least six Discourse sites of varying 
content volumes. I've learned good ways to stay on top of what is going 
on without having to open each site on a daily basis, and while it's not 
as low-effort as mailing lists are, I've found the benefits to be worth 
the increased effort. In fact many of the replies in this thread have 
complaints/concerns about aspects of Discourse usage which have been 
'solved' already, but the person making the complaint/voicing the 
concern just isn't aware of the solutions available yet... so for those 
people I encourage you to ask for assistance learning how to address the 
problems you perceive, instead of claiming the problems can't be solved.


A case in point is the statement "it's so hard to know what's new": I 
struggled with this as well, until I learned about configuring the 
behavior of the 'New' tab in Discourse, and aggressively filtering out 
categories and tags I do not care about. Now I can click 'refresh' while 
looking at the 'New' tab on a highly active site and I will see *all* of 
the New topics that are of potential interest to me. In the end this is 
very similar to taking the same actions in a local mail client, but more 
capable since it is based on metadata about the topics and not just the 
often-incorrect subject lines in email threads.


--
Kevin P. Fleming
He/Him/His
Principal Program Manager, RHEL
Red Hat US/Eastern Time Zone
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Emmanuel Seyman

* Fulko Hew [20/04/2023 21:18] :
>
> Can you say the same for Discourse?

I've tried using Fedora Discussions and its email notifications (both
the text and html versions) leave a lot to be desired. So much so that
I never actually go on to read the discussions.

Emmanuel
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Christopher Klooz


Just a slight addition about "archaic email" and related comments:

Email and its capability for being used in conjunction with OpenPGP 
ensures two major institutions in kernel development and elsewhere: 
"Trusting the developers, not infrastructure" [1], and, assume "any part 
of the infrastructure can be compromised at any time" [1]. This avoids 
single points of failure, and complements the chain of trust.


I am not sure if Discourse is capable to be used in conjunction with 
OpenPGP if it reformats contents or if it removes attachments (maybe 
someone knows?). This leads to the possibility that discourse introduces 
a single point of failure (or, single point of vulnerability), which 
breaks the above institutions.


Having said that, as far as I follow our devel mailing list, I think the 
argument above is of minor relevance, because I think this mailing list 
is not used to forward code or to do reviews. Signatures seem to be not 
omnipresent at the moment anyway.


However, I just wanted to remind that the issue is a little more complex 
than just assuming "email is old and has to be replaced by modern": 
there is another consideration, too. And we have to be aware that if 
discourse does not support OpenPGP signatures practically, we loose the 
possibility to ensure "security of integrity" in the mailing list in 
cases WHEN it is necessary - IF there are such cases (which I cannot 
determine).


Just some thoughts :)

[1] https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/maintainer-pgp-guide.html

Chris

On 4/21/23 11:42, Aleksandra Fedorova wrote:

On 4/21/23 02:57, Solomon Peachy via devel wrote:

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:21:54PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:

Hi Matthew, you say: "We're missing people", and I think, "who?".
And who are you going to miss if you move to discourse?


Again and again I have seen this "we're missing people" sentiment be
used to justify scrapping "old" workflows, and *not once* has it ever
resulted in "more people" coming out of the woodwork that would have
happily contributed in the past, but were turned off/away by the need to
use archaic email.


Funny, how from where I am sitting I can not really remember any time 
we managed to scrape the old workflow at least once. So I wouldn't be 
able to measure the effectiveness of such an imaginary thing. I can 
only see how we are unable to do changes and therefore we are always 
adding things on top of old ones, which of course doesn't make 
anything easier neither for those who want to change, nor for those 
who don't.


That's a slight exaggeration of course, but so is your statement. 
People come to Fedora via many ways. But I doubt any of it starts with 
e-mail nowadays. And the fact that you don't see newcomers _here_ 
actually proves the point, isn't it?



(FFS, If we're going to follow this to its logical conclusion, we should
  just scrap all of this email/discourse/whatever and just move
  everything to github, or even facebook, as that's clearly where the
  most numbers of people are.  "but no, our custom tooling makes things
  better for us" is the inevitable pushback, which arguably applies just
  as much to email-based flows!)


The mailing list make messages land in my client, on which I am very
efficient, therefore I can check all messages once a day, and respond
if I find a worthy topic.


...and the very nature of Discourse or various other Forums pretty much
make this sort of workflow impossible; that is to say you're all but
forced to manually poll every site you care about in a way that all but
makes automation impossible.


Discourse

1) sends email in a multipart format which has html and plain 
text(kind of markdown);
2) adds headers which allow you to filter the messages by topic or 
category on the client-side;
2) allows you to configure notifications for mentions per category or 
per tag;
3) allows to configure custom searches on the server side, and will 
notifies you for it.


Here is the example of the mail headers:


Message-ID: 
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
 
 
List-Unsubscribe: <...>
X-Discourse-Post-Id: 215862
X-Discourse-Topic-Id: 81258
X-Discourse-Category: Team Workflows/Fedora Magazine
X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
Precedence: list
List-ID: Fedora Discussion | Team Workflows Fedora Magazine
 
List-Archive: 
https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/article-proposal-using-btrfs-to-upgrade-fedora/81258

Feedback-ID: fedoraproject:user_posted:discoursemail



It is not perfect, and it requires some effort. But I don't see why it 
is impossible.



In other words, it's locally optimal for any given site, but is utterly
incapable of scaling if you care about more than a small handful of 
sites.


Calling myself semi-active here would be quite generous, but I can
uneqvocibly state that if I have to manually poll a discourse site or
whatever, that will be the end of my participating in

Re: Self Introduction: Štěpán Horáček

2023-04-21 Thread Jerry Snitselaar

On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 9:53 AM Stepan Horacek  wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I am a software engineer working at Red Hat. Currently, I maintain TPM
> packages in RHEL. One of those packages is the tss2 package, and I would
> like to become a co-maintainer of the tss2 package in Fedora.
>
> Regards,
> Štěpán
>

Hi Stepan,

I will submit a ticket to request you being added to the packagers group so
you can co-maintain. What is your fedora account id? It wasn't obvious with
a quick search.

Regards,
Jerry
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Robert Marcano via devel

On 4/21/23 8:17 AM, Robert Marcano wrote:

On 4/20/23 5:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:

It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new
===

As someone that read this list 99% ot the time and 1% for replying, I 
have no problem with having a web based forum for discussions, but that 
kind of software if always awful for my kind of usage.

I like the mailing list methos because I get all the threads and I see 
what I wish to read in order to be informed of the general direction of 
the project and ignore the ones I don't want to, with a simple 
responsive UI, that even works when I am offline.

I know that there are people that love web based forums (I don't), but 
in order to not leave people behind with a lot of experience in the 
project, for new ones, maybe instead of only proposing a change, maybe 
proposing a change with good email integration is better.

Discourse default email integration is bad IMHO. The model I wish to 
have with email integration are the tools that were installed for the 
OpenJDK - GitHub integration. in that mailing list, you never notice you 
are reading a bunch of emails that comes from GitHub comments and I can 
pretty much read the entire discussions from my email client, without 
ever using a web browser.

On 4/20/23 5:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> That said, it is web-first software. (Or mobile, if that’s your thing.)
> That requires some adjustment, I know. I hope opening up a Fedora
> Discussion tab – or keeping one open — becomes an easy habit.

I forgot to add. Discourse is worse for mobile users, the "app" was just 
an embedded web browser, the only thing efficient it did was to get a 
notification and remembering your session, everything else is worse that 
writing an email on a email client for phones.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Once upon a time, Marius Schwarz  said:
> - you are required to work with tools that specific service offers

I think this is my biggest complaint with any web forum - unlike email,
where users can choose clients that work the way they like, learning and
customizing them, web forums force a use/workflow method based on what
some developer likes.  They also tend to be "locked in" to a singular
UI, because any significant change after a critical mass of users is
reached is too upsetting.

Also: with web forums, I feel my content is not my own.  I can't
automatically keep copies and archive them.  For example, I can in
seconds tell you when my first post here was (January 2010 in the
current incarnation, September 2003 on the @redhat.com version), or even
my first post to any @redhat.com list (wow, June 1996!).

-- 
Chris Adams 
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Robert Marcano via devel


On 4/20/23 5:20 PM, Matthew Miller wrote:


It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new
===




As someone that read this list 99% ot the time and 1% for replying, I 
have no problem with having a web based forum for discussions, but that 
kind of software if always awful for my kind of usage.


I like the mailing list methos because I get all the threads and I see 
what I wish to read in order to be informed of the general direction of 
the project and ignore the ones I don't want to, with a simple 
responsive UI, that even works when I am offline.


I know that there are people that love web based forums (I don't), but 
in order to not leave people behind with a lot of experience in the 
project, for new ones, maybe instead of only proposing a change, maybe 
proposing a change with good email integration is better.


Discourse default email integration is bad IMHO. The model I wish to 
have with email integration are the tools that were installed for the 
OpenJDK - GitHub integration. in that mailing list, you never notice you 
are reading a bunch of emails that comes from GitHub comments and I can 
pretty much read the entire discussions from my email client, without 
ever using a web browser.

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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

Like many of you, I have built up a lot of workflow around my email.
I'm on several dozen Fedora mailing lists, so I heavily filter my
inbox. In fact, that's one of the areas where I'm least enthusiastic
about a large-scale move to Fedora Discussion. Our tag-based setup
makes it very difficult for Gmail (as an email client specifically) to
filter alerts the way I want.

On the other hand, as someone who often needs to cross-post
announcements and the like, the experience for that on Discussion is
so much better. And there are a lot of other quality of life
improvements, some big and some small, but they add up:

* The ability to move threads from "contributor" to "developer" areas
and vice versa
* Splitting off tangents to a new thread
* Editing posts (with visible history, of course)
* In-post polls
* In-line date/time tags that can render the time in the user's zone

Discussion isn't perfect, but it's better on the whole than I thought
it would be.

-- 
Ben Cotton
He / Him / His
Fedora Program Manager
Red Hat
TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Fabio Valentini

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 1:22 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:
>
> Hi Matthew, you say: "We're missing people", and I think, "who?".
> And who are you going to miss if you move to discourse?
>
> I will be candid, I tried to use forums since the old phpBB times, it
> never works for me.
> I have no time to go roaming over forums except if a search engine
> brings me there.
>
> The mailing list make messages land in my client, on which I am very
> efficient, therefore I can check all messages once a day, and respond
> if I find a worthy topic.
>
> Unless this discourse has some great mail bridge (it doesn't) or maybe
> an rss feed (I do not use those at work, but I guess I could ?) So that
> I can skim messages on my terms, I think I (and those like me) will be
> the next "missing people".
>
> Btw I could make exactly the same quote about any forum that Major made
> for Mailing lists, messy discussions are messy and a forum does not
> make them easier to follow by any means (perhaps except for those that
> chose inferior email readers).
>
> All that said, why waste time with this discussion?
>
> Your own post communicates to me (whether you intended it or not) that
> in the end the thread that will be generated by this post won't matter,
> because this is just a courtesy post and you already think that the
> opinion of the "minority of self selected mailing list lovers and
> dinosaurs" does not matter much.

I have to say, even at the risk of making me sound like "old dinosaur
man yells at cloud", I agree here.

The way I interact with the mailing list is very efficient - new
messages land in my email client, they are clearly labeled as
"unread", and archiving read messages (or discussion threads that I'm
not interested in) creates a searchable archive of everything that
happened "as a byproduct".
Interacting with discourse works completely differently - messages
don't "come to me", I need to *actively seek them out*, it's hard to
tell what's new, the interface isn't entirely obvious (maybe this
would be better if I used discourse more regularly, but I really don't
want to do that, unless I *absolutely need to*).

Especially the "messages come to me" vs. "I need to go looking" aspect
would likely result in me both 1. not being as informed about what's
going on in Fedora, and 2. interacting much less with discussions than
I do now.

Fabio
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Fedora rawhide compose report: 20230421.n.0 changes

2023-04-21 Thread Fedora Rawhide Report

OLD: Fedora-Rawhide-20230420.n.0
NEW: Fedora-Rawhide-20230421.n.0

= SUMMARY =
Added images:1
Dropped images:  0
Added packages:  5
Dropped packages:0
Upgraded packages:   117
Downgraded packages: 0

Size of added packages:  238.95 KiB
Size of dropped packages:0 B
Size of upgraded packages:   15.03 GiB
Size of downgraded packages: 0 B

Size change of upgraded packages:   1.84 GiB
Size change of downgraded packages: 0 B

= ADDED IMAGES =
Image: Silverblue dvd-ostree ppc64le
Path: 
Silverblue/ppc64le/iso/Fedora-Silverblue-ostree-ppc64le-Rawhide-20230421.n.0.iso

= DROPPED IMAGES =

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Package: rust-matchers-0.1.0-1.fc39
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= DROPPED PACKAGES =

= UPGRADED PACKAGES =
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Old package:  NetworkManager-1:1.43.5-3.fc39
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NetworkManager-libnm NetworkManager-libnm-devel NetworkManager-ovs 
NetworkManager-ppp NetworkManager-team NetworkManager-tui NetworkManager-wifi 
NetworkManager-wwan
Size: 25.57 MiB
Size change:  28.81 KiB
Changelog:
  * Thu Apr 20 2023 Beniamino Galvani  - 1:1.43.6-1
  - Update to 1.43.6 release (development)


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Size change:  7.13 KiB
Changelog:
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Changelog:
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  * Wed Apr 19 2023 Nick Clifton   - 12.05-1
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  * Thu Apr 20 2023 Nick Clifton   - 12.06-1
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Size change:  774 B
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20230420-1.git3d08ae7
  - openssl: specify Groups explicitly
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Changelog:
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It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new


It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new
===

My first post on this list was over 19 years ago. (It was about
Bugzilla. I was a fan!) Ever since those early days, devel list has
been the heart and center of Fedora activity. Now, I hope to convince
all of us here that it’s time for something different.

As it is, devel list is too much for many people to follow — people
we’d like to have around. It covers many different things at once, yet
also drives us towards more scattered communications. Our infamous
mega-threads are not really effective for getting to community
consensus, and tend to bring out the worst in us.

I propose that we transition devel list, and eventually most of our
mailing lists, to Fedora Discussion (our Discourse-powered forum).

I know this is a big change, but, hear me out…


We’re missing people


A Mastodon post from long-time Fedora contributor Major Hayden got me
thinking:

> How do people make so much time available for mailing list
> discourse?
>
> Once I ensure my team has the technical guidance they need
> and I work through the tasks of work that I owe other
> people, I take a look at the mailing list and say: "Oh my
> gosh, what the heck happened here?" Then the discussion
> goes further off the rails while I'm typing out a reply and
> my reply is no longer relevant.
>
> — https://tootchute.com/@major/109666036733834421

I know many Fedora folks, old-school and new, for whom devel list is
just too much. Some of it is the sheer volume, but this “off the rails”
tendency is real — threads drift, get into back-and-forth debates about
particular details, etc. And… some people aren’t here because — in
contrast with our “Friends” foundation, it isn’t always a nice place to
be (and mailing lists don’t provide many tools for moderation, except
the big hammer of outright bans).

Ben Cotton recently did some basic analysis on devel list traffic over
time, and there’s a clear trend: fewer people are participating, even
though the number of different threads goes up. I don’t think this is
because of any decline in Fedora contributors overall — I think it’s
that conversations are happening elsewhere.


Big threads are … bad, actually
---

When we have something to talk about, it tends to explode into a big
thread. The  thing in January with FESCo’s frame pointers decision
(https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/de...@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/RNJZUX3ZI34DIX6E4PVDKYQWCOFDQ4UY/#RNJZUX3ZI34DIX6E4PVDKYQWCOFDQ4UY)
is a good example of things going badly.

Most of the conversation was under the subject “Schedule for Tuesday's
FESCo Meeting (2023-01-03)”, because everything started as a reply to
that. That’s pretty easy to overlook. It’s possible for replies to
change  the subject when replying, but that can’t be done
retroactively, and then isn’t consistent (and it breaks threading in
Gmail, too).

Then, things got rather hostile, making it hard to have a reasonable
conversation about the issues (both technical and procedural). And
then, things went in circles without adding anything new.

This could have all gone a lot better.

And that’s just one example. Take a look back at any mega-thread, and
you’ll find similar — and worse. When things get heated, the only way
to intervene is by adding more.  There are often long subthreads of two
people going back and forth on tangents. Then, other conversation
branches duplicate that, or refer across. Classical email tools don’t
actually handle this kind of thing very well at all. In my experience,
it only really works if you keep up with the conversation in almost
real time, which has its own problems even when that’s possible.


We’re scattered in actual practice
--

Devel list may be the center, but we have _hundreds_ of Fedora mailing
lists. A dozen or so are reasonably active (Test, Legal, ARM…) but most
are inactive or dead. Some are just meeting reminders over and over —
for meetings that aren’t even active anymore. It’s easy to make but
hard to _unmake_ a mailing list.

For lists that are active, the split is confusing — when should
something be on the packaging list rather than devel? What happens when
something is related to both Cloud and Server, or Workstation and KDE?
One can post to both lists, but if someone replies and isn’t subscribed
to both, the conversation gets split.

With “devel” as the main list, conversations about marketing, design,
events, and so on don’t really have a central place. (The Mindshare
list never really caught on.) That makes these important activities
feel even more disconnected and secondary in status — and they
shouldn’t be.

Many groups have actually moved away from lists to using tickets for
team conversations — both those non-engineering functions
and development. Design Team has a mailing list, but mostly for
announcements: the work

Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Mark Wielaard

Hi,

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 07:21:54PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
> The mailing list make messages land in my client, on which I am very
> efficient, therefore I can check all messages once a day, and respond
> if I find a worthy topic.
> 
> Unless this discourse has some great mail bridge (it doesn't) or maybe
> an rss feed (I do not use those at work, but I guess I could ?) So that
> I can skim messages on my terms, I think I (and those like me) will be
> the next "missing people".

I think I would fall in the same category. The fedora-devel mailinglist
keeps me connected to the project even though I rarely reply to messages.

> Your own post communicates to me (whether you intended it or not) that
> in the end the thread that will be generated by this post won't matter,
> because this is just a courtesy post and you already think that the
> opinion of the "minority of self selected mailing list lovers and
> dinosaurs" does not matter much.

Agreed. It was a very long post with several important and interesting
observations about communication in a large groups of people. But it
felt like it wasn't meant as actually discussing how we can
communicate better, but to work towards a conclusion that a specific
forum technology should be adopted and get rid of people who use the
mailinglist to participate in the project.

Cheers,

Mark
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new


Hi,

On 4/21/23 10:47, Daniel P. Berrangé wrote:

I agree with most of your points, but I wanted to comment on the Change 
process.


(...skipped a lot...)


First, I’d like to move the Changes discussion. They will still be
posted to devel-announce, but responses directed to Project Discussion
in a new #changes tag. Ben tells me that this is a FESCo decision,
which seems reasonable.


Early you mentioned that lots of teams have moved discussions into
tickets in Pagure/GitHub/etc.  I think that is an entirely natural
thing to do for task oriented discussions.

I think that Change proposals are precisely that - a task oriented
discussion, and thus would naturally fit into issue tracker model.
You then have the associated tools for tracking, tagging the changes,
linking between related tickets, and more, all in one place. The
way we use wiki categories to tag Change proposal pages, and then
have to have discussions somewhere else entirely, is effectively
reinventing a poor-mans' issue tracker. Just use a real issue tracker
here and stop splitting the process around multiple tools.


I think the issue with the Change process is that while the change 
itself is a task, its discussion has a property of generating 
sub-threads and sidetracks going in all directions, which shape the rest 
of the fedora-devel discourse.


So while from the execution point of view having it in the issue tracker 
makes a lot of sense, from the communication point of view Change 
discussion is a seed, which when planted on a forum can create a whole 
forest.


The hope is that forum tooling can be used to split the subthreads and 
to let them live on their own. So instead of strict moderation of the 
conversation in the issue tracker, which would be required to keep it on 
point, we will allow conversations to spread out but in a way that you 
have a possibility to choose your track.



P.S. It is funny how even though I consider myself a "seasoned" Fedora 
Contributor, every time I send a mail to a mailing list, I still go to a 
Hyper-Kitty interface to verify that I did everything correctly.


--
Aleksandra Fedorova
bookwar
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Mario Torre

I know Matthew mentioned long replies to long posts as a problem, so
I'll do what on discourse would be an emoticon to sum a complex
discussion:

+1 Simo :)

Cheers,
Mario

On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 1:22 AM Simo Sorce  wrote:
>
> Hi Matthew, you say: "We're missing people", and I think, "who?".
> And who are you going to miss if you move to discourse?
>
> I will be candid, I tried to use forums since the old phpBB times, it
> never works for me.
> I have no time to go roaming over forums except if a search engine
> brings me there.
>
> The mailing list make messages land in my client, on which I am very
> efficient, therefore I can check all messages once a day, and respond
> if I find a worthy topic.
>
> Unless this discourse has some great mail bridge (it doesn't) or maybe
> an rss feed (I do not use those at work, but I guess I could ?) So that
> I can skim messages on my terms, I think I (and those like me) will be
> the next "missing people".
>
> Btw I could make exactly the same quote about any forum that Major made
> for Mailing lists, messy discussions are messy and a forum does not
> make them easier to follow by any means (perhaps except for those that
> chose inferior email readers).
>
> All that said, why waste time with this discussion?
>
> Your own post communicates to me (whether you intended it or not) that
> in the end the thread that will be generated by this post won't matter,
> because this is just a courtesy post and you already think that the
> opinion of the "minority of self selected mailing list lovers and
> dinosaurs" does not matter much.
>
> On Thu, 2023-04-20 at 17:20 -0400, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new
> > ===
>
> --
> Simo Sorce
> RHEL Crypto Team
> Red Hat, Inc
>
>
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Re: Package naming for vkbasalt-cli

2023-04-21 Thread Sandro


On 21-04-2023 12:46, Sandro wrote:

I need to package vkbasalt-cli [1] as a dependency for Bottles. Bottles
will use the Python library, but vkbasalt-cli also provides a command
for independent/direct usage.


And here is the missing link:

[1] https://gitlab.com/TheEvilSkeleton/vkbasalt-cli
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new

2023-04-21 Thread Marius Schwarz


Am 21.04.23 um 01:34 schrieb Stephen Smoogen:


That said, I don't think I will be greatly active after the move. I 
have tried Discourse for a year, but have found it to be like every 
forum and BBS I have tried for the last 30 years.. frustrating and needy.


ACK.

- you do not see, what new answeres have arrived
- you need to open and login into it, everytime your browser gets started
- you need to actively look into any open TAB for any ML with theire own 
discourse-like-websolution

- you are required to work with tools that specific service offers
- "offline" breaks the workflow
- you need a shitload of traffic to archive the same result, as you can 
have with one single email.

- it takes longer to find something
aso. aso.

and best of all:

- you (multiply this with any participant) need way more cpu power (at 
home and on the server) to archive the same results => Which is bad for 
the climate!!!


Mails get concentrated in one place in an efficient way, with a short 
and easy workflow in one system, we all need to work on a day-by-day 
basis, or do you know anyone who can uninstall his/her mailapp after the 
Fedora ML has moved to Discourse? I don't think so.


If "you",reader, have problems following the threads with your mailapp, 
which was the main argument here, get a better mailapp to handle it.


Best regards,
Marius Schwarz
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[Test-Announce] Fedora 39 Rawhide 20230421.n.0 nightly compose nominated for testing

2023-04-21 Thread rawhide

Announcing the creation of a new nightly release validation test event
for Fedora 39 Rawhide 20230421.n.0. Please help run some tests for this
nightly compose if you have time. For more information on nightly
release validation testing, see:
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Release_validation_test_plan

Notable package version changes:
anaconda - 20230418.n.1: anaconda-39.10-1.fc39.src, 20230421.n.0: 
anaconda-39.11-1.fc39.src

Test coverage information for the current release can be seen at:
https://openqa.fedoraproject.org/testcase_stats/39

You can see all results, find testing instructions and image download
locations, and enter results on the Summary page:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Summary

The individual test result pages are:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Installation
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Base
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Server
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Cloud
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Desktop
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Results:Fedora_39_Rawhide_20230421.n.0_Security_Lab

Thank you for testing!
-- 
Mail generated by relvalconsumer: https://pagure.io/fedora-qa/relvalconsumer
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Re: It’s time to transform the Fedora devel list into something new