Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:39 AM, Wim Feijen  wrote:

> Hi Russell,
>
> Is this an issue we should solve?
>
> Because I believe technology can help here. For example, by posing a
> question when a user is creating a ticket. Ask if it deals with security;
> then present two clear buttons: "Report a security issue" or "Report
> something else". (There might be better wordings). That will probably help
> a lot.
>
> Don'ts are probably not helpful, f.e. don't think of a yellow lemon.
>

Sure - we can fix it, as long as we rewrite the tool to take account of the
social use case. The proposal you've made here is a reasonable suggestion;
we might be able to come up with something even better if we gave it more
thought.

However, this doesn't account for the fact that this feature doesn't (to
the best of my knowledge) exist in Trac. So - we've either got to rewrite a
portion of Trac, write our own bug tracker, put some sort of shim around
the front of the ticket reporting process, or accept the limitations of the
tools we have.

Bringing it back to mailing lists - we could fix this problem by providing
a mechanism to migrate messages from one forum to another - but that isn't
a feature Google provides, either. So, we can rewrite our own mailing list
infrastructure, or make the most of the tools we have - accepting that the
tools have limitations. And for me, part of accepting that the mailing list
has limitations is accepting that it doesn't matter what you call it,
*someone* will post the wrong thing in the wrong place.

Humans, amirite? :-)

If someone is motivated to provide better solutions to either of these
problems, they certainly have my blessing - but keep in mind that the
Django project won't be migrating to a new bug tracker or mailing list tool
until that tool is a battle proven and self-sustaining project. We have
enough trouble getting enough volunteers to maintain development of Django
itself without also needing to recruit volunteers to keep our bug
tracker/mailing list running.

Russ %-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJxq84-qQGdq13g-bo2vsaJP-ZG3%2B0NJiSbOd5q-MZGW_Sndew%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

Hi Wim,

My apologies, this slipped through the cracks in my "returning from
DjangoCon US/annual post DjangoCon sickness" window. I've just mailed this
to the group for a decision.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 5:31 AM, Wim Feijen  wrote:

> Hi Russell,
>
> Did you manage to speak to the technical board about renaming the group?
>
> Wim
>
> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 03:49:21 UTC+2, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Carl Meyer  wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>>> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo >> > >:
>>> >
>>> > +1 for django-contributors
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
>>> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
>>> >
>>> > It's a good proposal.
>>>
>>> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>>>
>>> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>>>
>>
>> I do.
>>
>> As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical
>> board so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people
>> motivated to participate in this discussion.
>>
>> Russ %-)
>>
>>
>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a8c35fa3-20cb-4eb5-98bd-9791332630d5%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJxq848RJfjN0ik70bfCLtA-tV6_mXGjP%3DdyAY0Fv9Hx1H%2Bs_Q%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Wim Feijen]

Hi Russell,

Is this an issue we should solve? 

Because I believe technology can help here. For example, by posing a 
question when a user is creating a ticket. Ask if it deals with security; 
then present two clear buttons: "Report a security issue" or "Report 
something else". (There might be better wordings). That will probably help 
a lot. 

Don'ts are probably not helpful, f.e. don't think of a yellow lemon.

Wim 

On Wednesday, 10 September 2014 01:56:43 UTC+2, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Thomas Leo  > wrote:
>
>> +1 for @Wim Feijen's rewording but...
>>
>> I think the wording of the Group description isn't the issue, my guess is
>> that people who make the mistake of asking django-user's questions in the
>> django-developers mailing list didn't read the description to begin with.
>>
>> > They are almost all from people whose first language is clearly not 
>> English,
>>
>> I haven't been following this mailing list for a particularly long time, 
>> but I
>> can recall a number of cases where users were simply noobies looking for 
>> help,
>> and didn't reading the description of this mailing list before asking 
>> their
>> question.  Whether they are native English speakers or not, clearer 
>> wording
>> would mitigate the issue for everyone.
>>
>
> Let me dispel this illusion for you.
>
> If you go to Django's new ticket page:
>
> https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket
>  
> You are greeted with the following text:
>
> Please read this first:
> Please don't report security issues here! Contact 
> secu...@djangoproject.com  instead.
>
> This text is in bold, and is a hyperlink to a page describing Django's 
> security processes in detail.
>
> And yet, every couple of months, we get someone opening a ticket that 
> starts "I think I've found a security/DDOS issue in Django". The report 
> will be written in reasonably good english, so it isn't a language barrier 
> issue.
>
> This is what I meant when I said you can't solve a social problem with 
> technology. Yes, we might be able to improve the number of errors by 
> improving the text, but at some level, it doesn't matter how large you make 
> the "PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS BUTTON" sign, someone is going to push the 
> button. It is folly to believe that the problem is that we just haven't 
> found the right descriptive text.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/98e09e4b-7a8d-46e2-83e4-7b2d2ed10854%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Wim Feijen]

Hi Russell,

Did you manage to speak to the technical board about renaming the group?

Wim

On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 03:49:21 UTC+2, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Carl Meyer  > wrote:
>
>> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo > > >:
>> >
>> > +1 for django-contributors
>> >
>> >
>> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
>> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
>> >
>> > It's a good proposal.
>>
>> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>>
>> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>>
>
> I do. 
>
> As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical board 
> so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated to 
> participate in this discussion.
>
> Russ %-)
>  
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/a8c35fa3-20cb-4eb5-98bd-9791332630d5%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 11:40 PM, Thomas Leo  wrote:

> +1 for @Wim Feijen's rewording but...
>
> I think the wording of the Group description isn't the issue, my guess is
> that people who make the mistake of asking django-user's questions in the
> django-developers mailing list didn't read the description to begin with.
>
> > They are almost all from people whose first language is clearly not
> English,
>
> I haven't been following this mailing list for a particularly long time,
> but I
> can recall a number of cases where users were simply noobies looking for
> help,
> and didn't reading the description of this mailing list before asking their
> question.  Whether they are native English speakers or not, clearer wording
> would mitigate the issue for everyone.
>

Let me dispel this illusion for you.

If you go to Django's new ticket page:

https://code.djangoproject.com/newticket

You are greeted with the following text:

Please read this first:
Please don't report security issues here! Contact
secur...@djangoproject.com instead.

This text is in bold, and is a hyperlink to a page describing Django's
security processes in detail.

And yet, every couple of months, we get someone opening a ticket that
starts "I think I've found a security/DDOS issue in Django". The report
will be written in reasonably good english, so it isn't a language barrier
issue.

This is what I meant when I said you can't solve a social problem with
technology. Yes, we might be able to improve the number of errors by
improving the text, but at some level, it doesn't matter how large you make
the "PLEASE DON'T PUSH THIS BUTTON" sign, someone is going to push the
button. It is folly to believe that the problem is that we just haven't
found the right descriptive text.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJxq84-6c5QxpGMzQ1ghvvrxJ5b7DvcH2N6EPY5cGV5JGJkguw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Wim Feijen]

Hi Daniel,

An idea we spoke about earlier in this tread is to rename the group to 
Django Contributors, and the slug (and url) to remain django-developers in 
order to preserve links.

Wim

On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 22:04:30 UTC+2, Daniel Pyrathon wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I think that changing the name the community on google will create many 
> broken links, this will be a huge loss.
> What we can do instead, is create 2 domains (or subdomains) such as 
> core-development.djangoproject.com and community.djangoproject.com that 
> will serve as the official URLs to publicise on blogs, official sites and 
> IRC. These ULRs will redirect to the related google forums.
>
> Dan
>
> On Tuesday, September 9, 2014, Erik Romijn  > wrote:
>
>> I think it would also be a great improvement if we all adopted a standard 
>> response for these kind of mails - because no matter what we do, some will 
>> still end up here.
>>
>> Almost entirely based on Daniele's previous responses, how about we use:
>>
>> > The best place to get answers to your questions is the django-users 
>> email list,  - the web interface is <
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/django-users>.
>> >
>> > The list you've posted to is django-developers, an email list is for 
>> the discussion of the development of Django itself.
>> >
>> > You might also find helpful the #django IRC channel on irc.freenode.net
>> .
>> >
>> > I hope that helps,
>>
>> This focuses first on helping them get to the right place, with easily 
>> readable language, and then explains their error in a friendly way. In the 
>> past, we've occasionally sent somewhat more harsh replies, focusing more on 
>> how they did something wrong. Although I'm sure such replies were 
>> absolutely sent with the best intentions, it's not a pleasant first 
>> experience.
>>
>> Not sure what the best place is to keep this template easily accessible 
>> for anyone though. The wiki might be the most suitable.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Django developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/07EC2CEB-A0AC-4624-874C-6D8FBD9D594C%40solidlinks.nl
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> *
>
> PirosB3
>
> https://github.com/PirosB3
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/8ce347c2-79f0-4615-a684-9031fabaa48c%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Daniel Pyrathon]

Hi,

I think that changing the name the community on google will create many
broken links, this will be a huge loss.
What we can do instead, is create 2 domains (or subdomains) such as
core-development.djangoproject.com and community.djangoproject.com that
will serve as the official URLs to publicise on blogs, official sites and
IRC. These ULRs will redirect to the related google forums.

Dan

On Tuesday, September 9, 2014, Erik Romijn  wrote:

> I think it would also be a great improvement if we all adopted a standard
> response for these kind of mails - because no matter what we do, some will
> still end up here.
>
> Almost entirely based on Daniele's previous responses, how about we use:
>
> > The best place to get answers to your questions is the django-users
> email list, > - the web
> interface is .
> >
> > The list you've posted to is django-developers, an email list is for the
> discussion of the development of Django itself.
> >
> > You might also find helpful the #django IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
> >
> > I hope that helps,
>
> This focuses first on helping them get to the right place, with easily
> readable language, and then explains their error in a friendly way. In the
> past, we've occasionally sent somewhat more harsh replies, focusing more on
> how they did something wrong. Although I'm sure such replies were
> absolutely sent with the best intentions, it's not a pleasant first
> experience.
>
> Not sure what the best place is to keep this template easily accessible
> for anyone though. The wiki might be the most suitable.
>
> Erik
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com .
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com
> .
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/07EC2CEB-A0AC-4624-874C-6D8FBD9D594C%40solidlinks.nl
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>


-- 
*

PirosB3

https://github.com/PirosB3

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAOmo0o-g-aWLFpDu8T1Wmc5AaUbwoGzhuumbyO-boxdVV0_QTA%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Erik Romijn]

I think it would also be a great improvement if we all adopted a standard 
response for these kind of mails - because no matter what we do, some will 
still end up here.

Almost entirely based on Daniele's previous responses, how about we use:

> The best place to get answers to your questions is the django-users email 
> list,  - the web interface is 
> . 
> 
> The list you've posted to is django-developers, an email list is for the 
> discussion of the development of Django itself.
> 
> You might also find helpful the #django IRC channel on irc.freenode.net.
> 
> I hope that helps,

This focuses first on helping them get to the right place, with easily readable 
language, and then explains their error in a friendly way. In the past, we've 
occasionally sent somewhat more harsh replies, focusing more on how they did 
something wrong. Although I'm sure such replies were absolutely sent with the 
best intentions, it's not a pleasant first experience.

Not sure what the best place is to keep this template easily accessible for 
anyone though. The wiki might be the most suitable.

Erik

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/07EC2CEB-A0AC-4624-874C-6D8FBD9D594C%40solidlinks.nl.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Daniele Procida]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Thomas Leo  wrote:

>> and in most cases one has the impression that successfully finding a 
>place to
>> ask a question and writing a message expressing their question about 
>Django
>> development is an achievement in itself for them.
>
>This seems rather condescending to new Django users.

I wasn't referring to new Django users, but people for whom it is a significant 
extra effort to read and write in English.

Daniele

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20140909155223.1635772767%40mail.wservices.ch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Thomas Leo]

+1 for @Wim Feijen's rewording but...

I think the wording of the Group description isn't the issue, my guess is
that people who make the mistake of asking django-user's questions in the
django-developers mailing list didn't read the description to begin with.

> They are almost all from people whose first language is clearly not 
English,

I haven't been following this mailing list for a particularly long time, 
but I
can recall a number of cases where users were simply noobies looking for 
help,
and didn't reading the description of this mailing list before asking their
question.  Whether they are native English speakers or not, clearer wording
would mitigate the issue for everyone.

> and in most cases one has the impression that successfully finding a 
place to
> ask a question and writing a message expressing their question about 
Django
> development is an achievement in itself for them.

This seems rather condescending to new Django users.

On Tuesday, September 9, 2014 5:19:25 AM UTC-4, Daniele Procida wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Robert Grant  
> wrote: 
>
> >Totally agree Daniele. I don't know how other people experience the 
> group, 
> >but I actually didn't see the email address, and didn't even look at the 
> >URL. 
>
> I'm not sure how much effect any of this will have. 
>
> We get a few (I'd say about three or four) messages a week to 
> django-developers that should have gone to django-users. 
>
> They are almost all from people whose first language is clearly not 
> English, and in most cases one has the impression that successfully finding 
> a place to ask a question and writing a message expressing their question 
> about Django development is an achievement in itself for them. 
>
> As long as this email list is the first one that appears in a web serch 
> for things like "django developer email list", it's going to be where their 
> messages get sent. 
>
> It may actually have more effect to change the name and description of 
> django-users, to "For developers working with Django" and "Discussion group 
> for developers working with the Django web framework: djangoproject.com. 
> New members and beginners are welcome". 
>
> Daniele 
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/1d6f3d48-6c5a-49db-b168-28d7c0ae3415%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Daniele Procida]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Robert Grant  wrote:

>Totally agree Daniele. I don't know how other people experience the group, 
>but I actually didn't see the email address, and didn't even look at the 
>URL.

I'm not sure how much effect any of this will have.

We get a few (I'd say about three or four) messages a week to django-developers 
that should have gone to django-users.

They are almost all from people whose first language is clearly not English, 
and in most cases one has the impression that successfully finding a place to 
ask a question and writing a message expressing their question about Django 
development is an achievement in itself for them.

As long as this email list is the first one that appears in a web serch for 
things like "django developer email list", it's going to be where their 
messages get sent.

It may actually have more effect to change the name and description of 
django-users, to "For developers working with Django" and "Discussion group for 
developers working with the Django web framework: djangoproject.com. New 
members and beginners are welcome".

Daniele

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20140909091904.1459750638%40mail.wservices.ch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Wim Feijen]

Hi,

Good thing to change the group name. For the description, another wording 
could be:

Discussion group for contributing to the Django source code and 
documentation. Here we discuss new features and updates of the Django 
project. 

Wim


On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:52:09 UTC+2, Robert Grant wrote:
>
> Totally agree Daniele. I don't know how other people experience the group, 
> but I actually didn't see the email address, and didn't even look at the 
> URL. If we can find where the email is exposed (say on a website) and 
> change things to hide it as much as possible, e.g.: 
>
> Instead of : Email the Django Contributors group here: 
> django-d...@googlegroups.com 
> Say : Email the Django Contributors group .
>
> That might help. Maybe a note in the description to say that for 
> historical reasons, if you want to email a new topic to the group the email 
> address is django-d...@googlegroups.com ?
>
> On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:03:45 UTC+2, Daniele Procida wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote: 
>>
>> >As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical 
>> board 
>> >so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated 
>> to 
>> >participate in this discussion. 
>>
>> By the way, there are three related pieces of information (in Manage > 
>> Information > General information): 
>>
>> Group name: Django developers 
>>
>> Group email address: django-developers (can't be changed) 
>>
>> Group description: Discussion group for Django developers. This group is 
>> used for discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please 
>> use django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for 
>> the Django user community outreach, etc. 
>>
>>
>> The description's the easy one, but I don't think it's going to make a 
>> huge amount of difference. I doubt it's what catches people's attention. 
>> I'd suggest something shorter like: 
>>
>> Discussion group for the development of Django and contribution to 
>> the 
>> project. For questions about and help with Django, please use 
>> django-users. 
>>
>> The group name is the problematic one. If it matches the email address; 
>> it's misleading; if it doesn't, it's confusing. 
>>
>> Daniele 
>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/bf7ba047-d45f-49f1-9a16-ac4b54423894%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Robert Grant]

Totally agree Daniele. I don't know how other people experience the group, 
but I actually didn't see the email address, and didn't even look at the 
URL. If we can find where the email is exposed (say on a website) and 
change things to hide it as much as possible, e.g.: 

Instead of : Email the Django Contributors group here: 
django-developers@googlegroups.com
Say : Email the Django Contributors group 
.

That might help. Maybe a note in the description to say that for historical 
reasons, if you want to email a new topic to the group the email address is 
django-developers@googlegroups.com?

On Tuesday, 9 September 2014 10:03:45 UTC+2, Daniele Procida wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Russell Keith-Magee  > wrote: 
>
> >As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical 
> board 
> >so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated 
> to 
> >participate in this discussion. 
>
> By the way, there are three related pieces of information (in Manage > 
> Information > General information): 
>
> Group name: Django developers 
>
> Group email address: django-developers (can't be changed) 
>
> Group description: Discussion group for Django developers. This group is 
> used for discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please 
> use django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for 
> the Django user community outreach, etc. 
>
>
> The description's the easy one, but I don't think it's going to make a 
> huge amount of difference. I doubt it's what catches people's attention. 
> I'd suggest something shorter like: 
>
> Discussion group for the development of Django and contribution to the 
> project. For questions about and help with Django, please use 
> django-users. 
>
> The group name is the problematic one. If it matches the email address; 
> it's misleading; if it doesn't, it's confusing. 
>
> Daniele 
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/3ea22c0c-65b2-446b-bb25-acae01185c89%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Daniele Procida]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:

>As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical board
>so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated to
>participate in this discussion.

By the way, there are three related pieces of information (in Manage > 
Information > General information):

Group name: Django developers

Group email address: django-developers (can't be changed)

Group description: Discussion group for Django developers. This group is used 
for discussion of developing Django itself, not user questions; Please use 
django-users for issues regarding using the framework, questions for the Django 
user community outreach, etc.


The description's the easy one, but I don't think it's going to make a huge 
amount of difference. I doubt it's what catches people's attention. I'd suggest 
something shorter like:

Discussion group for the development of Django and contribution to the 
project. For questions about and help with Django, please use 
django-users.

The group name is the problematic one. If it matches the email address; it's 
misleading; if it doesn't, it's confusing.

Daniele

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/20140909080110.1041430080%40mail.wservices.ch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Carl Meyer  wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  > >:
> >
> > +1 for django-contributors
> >
> >
> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
> >
> > It's a good proposal.
>
> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>
> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>

I do.

As a matter of formality, I'd like to put this through the technical board
so that it isn't just a fiat decision by the handful of people motivated to
participate in this discussion.

Russ %-)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJxq84_Qthw_c43Bx6j2YoEX5BFh-37eZvojBGgFc1KsTTdw0A%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Atul Bhouraskar]

+1 for Django Contributors.

This also aligns with all the documentation on djangoproject.com where
there is an entire section on 'Contribution'.

We even have a "Contributor Licence Agreement'.

Atul


On 9 September 2014 01:24, Carl Meyer  wrote:

> On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> > 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  > >:
> >
> > +1 for django-contributors
> >
> >
> > That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> > the display name of the group, not its email address.
> >
> > It's a good proposal.
>
> I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.
>
> Who has access to the Google Groups admin?
>
> Carl
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/540DCA25.6010908%40oddbird.net
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAHdnYzuyrTUrj74R5i6cqBEENeFKq%3D0SVMp-0U5ye22SM__qNg%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Carl Meyer]

On 09/08/2014 08:56 AM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
> 2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo  >:
> 
> +1 for django-contributors 
> 
> 
> That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing
> the display name of the group, not its email address.
> 
> It's a good proposal.

I agree. I don't see any reason not to try this.

Who has access to the Google Groups admin?

Carl

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/540DCA25.6010908%40oddbird.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Aymeric Augustin]

2014-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Thomas Leo :

> +1 for django-contributors
>

That would be "Django Contributors" since we're talking about changing the
display name of the group, not its email address.

It's a good proposal.

-- 
Aymeric.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CANE-7mV-Yq66M4e3_pbyjckPTm2DRw0VetVbOdehaut4z4w2-Q%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Thomas Leo]

+1 for django-contributors 

django-contributors is clearer than django developers. When companies are 
hiring web developers, they will often title the position "django 
developer". Usually these companies are not looking for people who 
"contribute" to the framework, but use the framework to develop websites.

>> At the end of the day, it's a name. It doesn't matter which name you 
pick - *someone* is going to interpret it incorrectly. 

I disagree with this. Yes its inevitable that people will accidently write 
in the wrong mailing list, but a clearer name for that list will mitigate 
this problem.

"Django core" and "Django core development" are IMHO clearer than Django 
developers, however it could also potentially be confusing given the fact 
that the framework has a module called core. This might lead people to 
think that the mailing list is specific to development of django.core. 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/b8f7a270-d867-4c2e-af1f-7626fadeae24%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Tim Graham]

Russ, I think the suggestion was merely to change the display name of the 
group. I don't see any downsides to trying something like "Django 
developers (core development)".

On Friday, September 5, 2014 1:45:58 PM UTC-4, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. 
>
> You're not the first to make the suggestion - the same suggestion has been 
> made many times in the past. You can search the archives if you want to see 
> those discussions.
>
> There are a number of problems with this proposal:
>
> 1) History. There are 10 years of archives and blog links that reference 
> existing discussions. If we rename the group, all those links break. That 
> would be a huge loss to the community.
>
> 2) More importantly, you can't solve a social problem with technology. At 
> the end of the day, it's a name. It doesn't matter which name you pick - 
> *someone* is going to interpret it incorrectly. To pick some of the 
> suggestions that have been made:
>
>  * "Django Masters" and "Django Private" both imply that newcomers aren't 
> welcome to join and make suggestions, which is a social signal we don't 
> want to send.
>  * "Django Core" could be interpreted to mean that it's only for the core 
> team - and, by the by, there *is* a "django-core" list for private core 
> team discussions (there aren't many of these, but it sometimes necessary 
> for security sensitive issues, etc)
>  * "Django debate" doesn't make it clear who is discussing what.
>
> Yes, I agree that the "you should be posting to Django-users" message 
> isn't ideal, and some of the responses that are given don't have the best 
> tone. If your first message to a Django group gets a response that sounds 
> like "go away", that's not a good look for the community.
>
> However, I *guarantee* that renaming the list won't make this problem go 
> away.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
> On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Robert Grant  > wrote:
>
>> I am one of the happy few who read the line about what this group is for 
>> before I started posting. 
>>
>> However, that line, and the endless supply of people who think this is 
>> for Django developers (see also: Java developers are generally considered 
>> to be people* who develop in Java, not who develop Java), might be symptoms 
>> of the fact that this group has a funny name for something that is both 
>> *developed* and *developed in*.
>>
>> Can we rename it 
>> ?
>>  
>> :) Some semi-serious suggestions (because I can't think of an obvious 
>> alternative) :
>>
>> Django Masters
>> Django Private
>> Django Debate
>> Django Internals
>> Aymeric And Friends
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Yes, they're still people.
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "Django developers" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to django-develop...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to django-d...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/fd27a285-be01-417f-ab4b-4026d7221239%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/7f4671f4-0698-438f-a842-75fef87be0da%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Russell Keith-Magee]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the suggestion.

You're not the first to make the suggestion - the same suggestion has been
made many times in the past. You can search the archives if you want to see
those discussions.

There are a number of problems with this proposal:

1) History. There are 10 years of archives and blog links that reference
existing discussions. If we rename the group, all those links break. That
would be a huge loss to the community.

2) More importantly, you can't solve a social problem with technology. At
the end of the day, it's a name. It doesn't matter which name you pick -
*someone* is going to interpret it incorrectly. To pick some of the
suggestions that have been made:

 * "Django Masters" and "Django Private" both imply that newcomers aren't
welcome to join and make suggestions, which is a social signal we don't
want to send.
 * "Django Core" could be interpreted to mean that it's only for the core
team - and, by the by, there *is* a "django-core" list for private core
team discussions (there aren't many of these, but it sometimes necessary
for security sensitive issues, etc)
 * "Django debate" doesn't make it clear who is discussing what.

Yes, I agree that the "you should be posting to Django-users" message isn't
ideal, and some of the responses that are given don't have the best tone.
If your first message to a Django group gets a response that sounds like
"go away", that's not a good look for the community.

However, I *guarantee* that renaming the list won't make this problem go
away.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Robert Grant 
wrote:

> I am one of the happy few who read the line about what this group is for
> before I started posting.
>
> However, that line, and the endless supply of people who think this is for
> Django developers (see also: Java developers are generally considered to be
> people* who develop in Java, not who develop Java), might be symptoms of
> the fact that this group has a funny name for something that is both
> *developed* and *developed in*.
>
> Can we rename it
> ?
> :) Some semi-serious suggestions (because I can't think of an obvious
> alternative) :
>
> Django Masters
> Django Private
> Django Debate
> Django Internals
> Aymeric And Friends
>
>
>
>
>
> * Yes, they're still people.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Django developers" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/fd27a285-be01-417f-ab4b-4026d7221239%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/CAJxq84_FzXsG0qTQN%2BXL643QV9%3D-KTixMZxz74iwDLC8xkxgtw%40mail.gmail.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Wim Feijen]

Or Django contributors?

On Friday, 5 September 2014 10:20:51 UTC+2, Tom Christie wrote:
>
> Options?...
>
> * Django core
> * Django core development
>
> For comparison the Rails folks have "Ruby on Rails: Talk 
> " and "Ruby on 
> Rails: Core "
>
>  - Tom
>
> On Friday, 5 September 2014 08:58:19 UTC+1, Robert Grant wrote:
>>
>> I am one of the happy few who read the line about what this group is for 
>> before I started posting. 
>>
>> However, that line, and the endless supply of people who think this is 
>> for Django developers (see also: Java developers are generally considered 
>> to be people* who develop in Java, not who develop Java), might be symptoms 
>> of the fact that this group has a funny name for something that is both 
>> *developed* and *developed in*.
>>
>> Can we rename it 
>> ?
>>  
>> :) Some semi-serious suggestions (because I can't think of an obvious 
>> alternative) :
>>
>> Django Masters
>> Django Private
>> Django Debate
>> Django Internals
>> Aymeric And Friends
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * Yes, they're still people.
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/48073b9c-6193-4b93-b2ea-93c927ef0d4e%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The greatest proposal yet: rename this damn group

[Tom Christie]

Options?...

* Django core
* Django core development

For comparison the Rails folks have "Ruby on Rails: Talk 
" and "Ruby on 
Rails: Core "

 - Tom

On Friday, 5 September 2014 08:58:19 UTC+1, Robert Grant wrote:
>
> I am one of the happy few who read the line about what this group is for 
> before I started posting. 
>
> However, that line, and the endless supply of people who think this is for 
> Django developers (see also: Java developers are generally considered to be 
> people* who develop in Java, not who develop Java), might be symptoms of 
> the fact that this group has a funny name for something that is both 
> *developed* and *developed in*.
>
> Can we rename it 
> ?
>  
> :) Some semi-serious suggestions (because I can't think of an obvious 
> alternative) :
>
> Django Masters
> Django Private
> Django Debate
> Django Internals
> Aymeric And Friends
>
>
>
>
>
> * Yes, they're still people.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Django developers" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/ea6589a1-5b3d-4f20-8de2-bf50dfcaf941%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.