Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf
If you are using the Nissan Leaf Battery Blocks in a vehicle that is large enough to hold the larger 24 module pack, you do not have to disassembled them. I bought three of the larger Nissan Leaf Battery Blocks and just bolted them down on to a chassis plate in the bottom of the battery box. I also bought a extra Nissan Leaf Battery to add more modules to the end of the 24 module battery battery pack. Just attach a threaded rod to the end of threaded rods with rod couplers to using a steel or aluminum spacer. The advantage to buying complete battery blocks, is that you get the end plates and the separating steel spacers that go between each module instead of making them. Just bolt the buss bars and BMS wire spade connectors to the terminals. If you need to parallel two modules together, you then will have to unbolt the long thread rods and placed two modules with the two positives on one side and th two negatives on the other end. The buss bars that come with the Battery Blocks are only long enough to connect two modules terminals that go from neg to pos. You either need a buss bar to branch across four positive at one end and four negative terminals at the other end, or you can reuse the short terminal buss bars to attach two modules together and then connect those two modules with another copper buss bar or use 1/2 A/C copper tubing flatten down which gets to to about 9/16 inch wide and the same thickness. Took me only a day to make up the extra modules and two days to install the battery pack. Another day to attach all the buss bars and attach the BMS wires terminals. You can purchase them NEW instead of use. Roland - Original Message - From: Jay Summet via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:00 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I was searching YouTube and found a new video where a guy disassembled a leaf pack. (He posted it only a week ago, which is why I hadn't found it before.). Good info for anybody looking to do the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dDHJKzX78https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dDHJKzX78 Jay -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlUZ/5gACgkQSWJjSgPNbM89GgCfR7Mv7JYWPJb2VFLg1R/42aKT oDoAnj35p4vM1J2CC1skKuxUAyvZjNft =LbMY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/a193b42d/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf
You can purchase them NEW instead of use. Roland I am aware that I can purchase blocks of cells (from Hybrid Auto Center, and others) which may be new, or old/unused stock, or pulled from salvage depending upon source. I chose to buy a Salvage pack for cost savings purposes. 48 modules at $130 per cell (I'm including shipping costs in that $130 price...seems to be a reasonable way to account of volume discounts of larger packs...) is $6240 My cost for the complete 2013 leaf was $4100 (or $4407 including all of the tools I had to purchase to move/jack the car and drop the pack) plus a lot of my own labor. If you have the money, buying just the modules or 1/2 packs already ready to go is a good time saving measure, but if your labor is free, you can get a lot more value with a (good) Salvage pack/car. Because I got the whole car, I was able to connect to the OBDII port and verify that the pack health was excellent, and I know for a fact that it's an upgraded chemistry 2013 pack with 64 Ah capacity. I'm currently saving about $1,800 over buying the modules alone, plus any extra money I can recoup by selling parts from the rest of the car. (such as the wheels/tires, entire motor/charger/inverter unit, HVAC, J1722 port, HV contractor, 250A fuse block, BMS, airbags, headlights, etc..) Another person I know of purchased just a used pack from a junk yard (without the car surrounding it) for $2600-2700, which is an even better cost savings, and gives him less stuff to have to get rid of after the fact... Of course, they may stand behind their product better than CoPart's Where is / As-is policy for salvage autos : Jay ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf
Anyone know what the maximum discharge rate is for the Nissan Leaf batteries? How about for the Chevy Volt batteries? Thanks, Dave Delman eLectricDeLorean.com http://www.evalbum.com/1482 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/415cb63e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] EVent: KickGasClub.org EV Conversion Workshop $$ 9a-1p 4/4 S.Diego CA
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2015/mar/30/car-calendar/
Show 'n Shine ... events ... around San Diego County
By Mark Maynard March 30, 2015 ...
April 4: Kick Gas Car Club EV Conversion Workshop, 9 a.m.-1 p.m. first
Saturdays, Montgomery Field. Learn how to convert a gasoline-powered car to
electric. $75, includes lunch and T-shirt.
Info: [ http://kickgasclub.org/ ] or email [ quevedo @cox.net ] ...
[© utsandiego.com]
...
[dated]
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[EVDL] EVLN: Automakers race to double the range of affordable EVs
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/24/autos-batteries-idUSL2N0WQ19Z20150324 Automakers race to double the driving range of affordable electric cars By Paul Lienert Mar 24, 2015 DETROIT, March 24 ... (Reuters) - Global automakers are readying a new generation of mass-market electric cars with more than double the driving range of today's Nissan Leaf, betting that technical breakthroughs by big battery suppliers such as LG Chem Ltd will jump-start demand and pull them abreast of Tesla Motors Inc. At least four major automakers - General Motors Co, Ford Motor Co, Nissan Motor Co Ltd and Volkswagen AG - plan to race Tesla to be first to field affordable electric vehicles that will travel up to 200 miles (322 km) between charges. That is more than twice as far as current lower-priced models such as the Nissan Leaf, which starts at $29,010. The new generation of electric cars is expected to be on the market within two to three years. To get a Tesla Model S that delivers 265 miles (427 km) on a charge requires buying a version that starts at $81,000 before tax incentives. Most electric cars offered at more affordable prices can travel only about 75 to 85 miles (121 to 137 km) on a charge - less in cold weather or when drivers have the air conditioning on. Consumers who travel longer distances fear getting stranded, a sales-killing concern automakers call range anxiety. Range anxiety is one reason only about 67,700 electric vehicles were sold in the United States last year. That was about 0.4 percent of the 16.5 million new cars and trucks sold. Automakers need to pump up electric vehicle demand significantly by 2018. This is when California and eight other states will begin to require the companies to meet much higher sales targets for so-called zero emission vehicles - in other words, electric cars - and federal rules on reducing fuel consumption and greenhouse gases become much stricter. None of the four automakers contacted by Reuters for this story - Ford, GM, Nissan and Volkswagen - wished to comment on future products or other related matters. BATTERY BREAKTHROUGHS Tesla Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk said last week that 200 miles is the minimum threshold to alleviate consumer concerns over EV range. There is a sweet spot around 250-350 miles that's really ideal, he said. Musk has promised a more affordable Tesla, the Model 3, which will sell for around $35,000 and provide a driving range of 200 miles or more. That car is slated to begin production in mid-to-late 2017. However, GM says it plans to field a 200-mile electric car, the Chevrolet Bolt, by late 2016. The Bolt will use an advanced lithium-ion battery pack developed by Korea's LG Chem, which also supplies batteries for the Chevrolet Volt hybrid. The newer batteries are said to have much higher energy density and provide much longer range between charges, thanks to breakthroughs in battery materials, design and chemistry, according to a source familiar with LG Chem's technology. Several factors are at play that are landing at this 200-mile range for a vehicle priced between $30,000 and $35,000, LG Chem Chief Executive Prabhakar Patil said in an interview. We've been talking to several OEMs (automakers) regarding where our battery technology is and where it's going. LG Chem also supplies standard lithium-ion batteries to the Ford Focus Electric and may supply the longer-range batteries to a new compact EV that Ford is tentatively planning to introduce in late 2018 or early 2019, according to three suppliers familiar with the program. Compared with the 2015 Focus Electric, which has a range between charges of 76 miles, the new compact electric model would have a range of at least 200 miles, the suppliers said. Nissan and VW both have battery supply deals with LG Chem, and both are working on longer-range EVs for 2018 and beyond. Nissan is planning to introduce a successor to the Leaf in early 2018, according to a source familiar with the program, and that model is expected to offer significantly greater range than the current Leaf, the best-selling electric car in the United States, which can go 84 miles (135 km) between charges. The 2015 Leaf uses batteries made by a joint venture between Nissan and supplier NEC. It is not clear if the future model will shift to LG Chem, although Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn has identified LG Chem as a potential battery supplier. VW plans to expand its current range of electrified vehicles, including a successor to the battery-powered e-Golf in 2018 with much longer range, according to two sources familiar with the program. The current e-Golf uses batteries made by Panasonic and has a range between charges of 83 miles. (Editing by Joseph White and Matthew Lewis) [© reuters.com] http://www.greenoptimistic.com/electric-vehicle-batteries-cheaper-expected/ Electric Vehicle Batteries Cheaper Than Expected Ari Luis March 29, 2015 ...
[EVDL] EVLN: ElectraGirl How Long ...
https://transportevolved.com/2015/03/14/electragirl-how-long-does-the-battery-last/ ElectraGirl: How Long Does the Battery Last? March 14, 2015 By ElectraGirl [images https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2012-BMW-ActiveE-miles-trip-header1.png 2012 BMW ActiveE miles trip header https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2012-BMW-ActiveE-Bridge-1.jpg 2012 BMW ActiveE Bridge https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2012-BMW-ActiveE-Bridge-2.jpg https://d290b3p3ki7y5s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/2012-BMW-ActiveE-Spruce-Run-1.jpg ] How long does the battery last? This is one of the questions we are asked the most often from people when we are out and about showing off our Electric Cars – I think that they are really asking, How far can you drive on a single charge? As we’ve found out over the years there really isn’t a definitive answer. The range on the cars guess-o-meter will give you an idea but after many drives we have found that it is all down to the way you drive the car. Drive nice and gently and you will get more miles out of your battery, drive fast and you will see your miles disappear at a rather quicker rate. I would say it is one of the more difficult questions to answer accurately. One day three years ago we decided that we should test the theory out with our 2012 BMW ActiveE. You know, just to see how far we could drive on one charged battery. Here’s what we found. We planned a Sunday afternoon drive with the ActiveE, going out for a fun drive rather than driving for necessity, even though driving the ActiveE was always fun regardless. We wanted to see how well the battery did and what kind of mileage we could actually get. The weather didn’t look good when we awoke to fog and rain on the Sunday morning, but we’re British, after all, so that wasn’t going to stop us. Fortunately by the afternoon the rain had stopped and the sun had started to make an appearance so it looked like our drive would be rather pleasant. We set off with my Sidekick adamant that he knew where we were going, he said that he had a drive all planned out. Jolly good! Although, we had only been driving for ten minutes when we had to stop and switch on the Satellite Navigation as he suddenly wasn’t quite so sure anymore! Hmm – It turned out that we had already gone the wrong way! A good start. With the car now going in the correct direction, we settled back to enjoy the drive and take in some new scenery. The day was warm enough that we could turn off the HVAC, so we were able to drive along so silently. The HVAC is actually quite noisy, I guess that this is what happens when you don’t have an engine drowning out everything else, you actually hear things that you wouldn’t normally hear in a petrol car. The range remaining display on the ActiveE seems to be quite true to what it says, it does seem quite stable. Often when we first get in the car in a morning the difference between the range reported in regular mode and Eco mode is quite significant, there can be as much as a 12 mile difference. The ActiveE has “Eco mode”. When you engage “Eco” the car reduces the sensitivity of the accelerator and reduces the power to the HVAC. This encourages you to drive more gently and reduces the heating and cooling power demands. Basically, you give up some comfort and fun for more miles. We had left home with 98% charge (it was still charging when we unplugged it) and we had an approximate range of 80 miles in regular mode, and 96 miles in Eco mode. We ended up driving over 80 miles that day and still came home with 16 miles to spare. How could that be? Well, we drove for about four hours, most of the driving was on 35 mph roads with the odd 50 mph blasts thrown in and the occasional slow 20 mph road. As we drove very economically, the car began to re-evaluate the available range. When we checked the battery level it had climbed from the starting point of 80 miles up to a 96 mile range in regular mode, hence the 16 miles still remaining at the end of the day. So, if you drive gently you can really get quite a few more miles out of your battery and its predicted range will go up. The predicted range looks at how you drove the car the day before and guesses how many miles you will get out of the battery determined on the previous days driving. Which is why I would always see a higher predicted range than my Sidekick would – Just saying! It seemed that on our drive, that by driving gently in regular mode, the difference between the regular mode estimate and the Eco mode estimate had converged. At one point during that day, at 50% battery, it was only a three mile difference. This makes us believe that it is all down to the way the car is driven… drive gently and you get almost the same amount of miles in Comfort mode as you would in Eco mode. Driving on the motorway, the miles go down quicker due to the increase in speed… the faster you
[EVDL] EVLN: $75k Zecoo Cool Electric Crotch-Rocket r:75mi ts:75mph
http://en.rocketnews24.com/2015/03/27/awesome-new-electric-motorcycle-looks-like-something-out-of-akiras-neo-tokyo/
Awesome new electric motorcycle looks like something out of “Akira”‘s Neo
Tokyo
Mike [2015/03/27]
[images
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo2.jpg
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo.jpg
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo3.jpg
(limited production 49 individual models)
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo1.jpg
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo6.jpg
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo5.jpg
https://sociorocketnewsen.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/zecoo4.jpg
] ...
This is the appropriately sci-fi looking zecOO from Znug Design, and it can
apparently reach a top speed of around 75 mph; not fast by motorcycle
standards, but when you’re straddling the two enormous wheels of a crotch
rocket this cool, speed somehow doesn’t matter as much. Besides, 75 mph is
plenty fast enough to make you fear for your life on the taxi-packed streets
of Tokyo.
One of only a handful of electric motorcycles that break from classic
motorcycle design, the zecOO’s aesthetic is pretty clearly inspired – at
least in part – by Japan’s future-fantasy pop cultural works. It sits low to
the ground and features a bizarre-looking hub-center steering system that
more resembles tank controls than a standard cycle’s handlebars. It runs on
a lithium battery and falls into the 250cc range, meaning it fits into
Japan’s chu-gata category of motorcycle and can be operated with a standard
license in spite of its ferocious appearance.
The only drawback is the price tag, which sits at a cool 8,880,000 yen
(about US$70,000). We’re pretty sure the events of Akira will have long
since become a reality by the time we save up that much scratch.
[© RocketNews24 / SOCIO]
...
http://www.gizmodo.jp/2015/03/_zecoo.html
zecOO - THE ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE [In Japanese]
2015.03.25
[images]
...
http://www.zecoomotor.com/specs.html
zecOO - THE ELECTRIC MOTORCYCLE - specs
...
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/913994.shtml
On your bike
Mar 25, 2015 - the new Zecoo electric motorcycle in Tokyo on Wednesday. The
bike can cover 160km after being charged for 4 hrs ...
...
[dated
video (In Japanese)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xu8iSZGqaY
zecOO Electric motorcycle - Tokyo ...
Video for zecoo electric motorcycle 1:43
Mar 26, 2012 - zecOO Electric motorcycle - Tokyo motorshow 2012
]
...
http://gizmodo.com/5906049/this-stunning-electric-bike-is-like-a-jet-fighter-on-two-wheels
This Stunning Electric Bike Is Like a Jet Fighter On Two Wheels
Jesus Diaz 4/28/12
[images] ...
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https://recombu.com/cars/article/are-electric-cars-hard-to-resell
Reselling EVs are improving as real-world battery range improves
http://www.eetindia.co.in/ART_8800710931_188_NT_018c835f.HTM
Bosch CEO predicted 75% EV battery price drop, 2x density by 2020
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-18/vw-to-decide-on-new-battery-technology-for-electric-cars-by-july
VW to Decide on New Battery Technology for Electric Cars by July
...
https://transportevolved.com/2015/03/25/volkswagen-considers-solid-state-battery-packs-for-super-long-range-electric-cars/
Volkswagen Considers Solid-State Battery Packs for Super-Long Range Electric
Cars
http://www.pv-magazine.com/services/press-releases/details/beitrag/sodium-batteries--applications-and-advantages-of-environmentally-friendly-and-efficient-technology_100018722/#axzz3VCf6yofG
Sodium-nickel batteries applicationsadvantages overview
+
EVLN: Automakers race to double the driving range of affordable EVs
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Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
a single customer application. They talk about how they could do these applications, but don't identify any actual uses. There is only one actual photograph of a cell, module, pack, or BMS. All CAD renderings - not a good sign. http://www.enerdel.com/se175-384-a-secure/ shows a completly generif metal box with lifting eyes. Not even and ENERDAL log. Call me suspicious. They might be an outlet for a perfectly competent Chinese manufacturer, or who knows what. Maybe you can get them to show you the beef. Maybe some testimonials? A happy customer you can call? Mike Ross On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Mike via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I am in the process of deciding what type of Lithium batteries to use. Been through all the retoric on CALB, etc. Read the used Nissan battery threads and am leaning toward ENERDEL batteries for two reasons,, (1) They are a US company and (2) the discharge curve seems to be a steady declining ramp with a ‘soft’ end point. EVOLVE Electrics is also very helpful. I am well aware the company had a rough few years but it looks like they have recovered. Looking for a 144 volt nominal/168V max system and 200 AHrs. So…does anyone have any solid experience using ENERDEL batteries? ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/30d16df2/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/46f9f3c4/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150330/1cfa726c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150329/74c22524/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/afdd0261/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
My new edition of Linden's Handbook of Batteries lists LFP as 3.45V nominal. On the ENERDEL website is no information at all about the anode chemistry. I was making my best guess. On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 12:46 AM, Stephen stephen.holl...@gmail.com wrote: Not sure why you think Enerdel could be LiFePO4 (3.3V nom)... They are LiMn2O4 (LMO). Nice batteries. Regards, Stephen On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I wonder why their website is so skimpy, given they seem to be legit. Do they actually make the cells in the US, or just assemble the packs? I downloaded the spec sheet. http://www.enerdel.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Cell-Binder.pdf What I see in terms of cycle life is not instructive. The product page says: - Durability and low self-discharge; retains greater than 85% of initial capacity after more than 3,000 cycles at 100% DOD and 30°C They cut off charging at 4.1V and call that 100% SOC. They say the nominal voltage is 3.6V. This sounds like a LiFePO4 voltage. But, it is a guess - they don't reveal it. LFP is particularly vulnerable to deterioration at lower temperatures than other cell chemistries. At 35°C (104°F) LFP starts to have accelerating deterioration. It would be interesting to see how close to the 45°C line that they do show is to the 35°C line that they don't show. The best of all information would be a family of curves that illustrates the region where deterioration accelerates. The graph on the spec sheet shows a 30°C curve that has only ~75% of capacity at 3000 cycles, not 85%. So I am confused about that information. I am going to digress to my pet topic here, cell testing: They have a C/2 charge and discharge rate. So the cycles are 1 hour start to finish. They don't indicate a dwell time at the max SOC. So they take it up and immediately bring it back down. Also the test equipment must be capable of sensing the decrease in capacity very precisely. Not many people have this equipment, yet. If understand why HOC is better and we push for it , then eventually it will supplant what is used now. The video I keep linking to- Dr. Dahn discuss es this in some detail. If high precision coulometry (HPC) is used, then you have better chance of knowing about the cells true durability in service. WIth HPC y ou can have far few er cycles and detect damage if you just hold at the fully charged state and temperature - nothing much else matters . But , if the idea is to show lots of cycles, not actually evaluate how NOT to operate the cells, then you run cycles like they have ( and most everyone else in the business). I am not say they are bad guys, but pointing out the problem with the bad old ways of testing cells. The problem that kills Li ion cells is the fully charged state a coinciding with higher temperature. The mechanism of damage is achieving a reaction activation energy when the cell is fully charged. Below that temperature there is far less of a problem. To evaluate the cell quality of design and manufacture you actually need to see at what conditions the cells deteriorate. You could take the same physical cells and use different electrolyte packages, test them with 1 hour cycles and see no difference, but with HPC and long dwell times you could tell which combination is better. This is where the industry need to go. Mike On Sun, Mar 29, 2015 at 10:31 PM, Jeff Major via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Hello EVDL, EnerDel makes a great cell and battery here in the USA. I have been to their factory in the Indianapolis area many times. I use the product just about every day. I can write more but want to see if this message makes to thru to the board. Regards, Jeff Major On Sunday, March 29, 2015 9:09 PM, HARSHA GODAVARI via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Their contact info shows their location as,Greenfield .Ind May be someone in the vicinity can pay them a visit. regards hg - Original Message - From: Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Mike mska...@cox.net, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:09:01 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences Mike, Caveat emptor. A US company, but I can't see any information on the website that tells me they have a good cell, modules or packs. It is rather uninformative. I can't tell if they are more than an outlet for a non-US company. To me the most important thing to know is what they cells are made of, and have they had useful life testing; which is to say high precision coulometry. WIthout that knowledge there I very little about the life spec that is comforting. This will be hard to get from any manufacturer because it is new. But the usual life testing is very weak. If you find out more about the
Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from aNissan Leaf
According to Nissan, in the newer 2014 cells that I have, is a minimum of 2.4 volts, but it is prefer for a long life to stay above 3.6 volts on a cell that is rated for 4.2 volts. It is prefer not to charge above 4.0 volts. My battery pack at 4 volts per cell is equal to 214 volts. In a 10 mile run, the voltage drop is only to 211.5 volts which is 0.04 vd per mile. This leaves me to a minimum volt drop to 3.6 volts per cell or 194.4 volts minimum or a range of 48.5 miles in a EV that weighs 5500 lbs. Roland - Original Message - From: via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 7:12 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from aNissan Leaf Anyone know what the maximum discharge rate is for the Nissan Leaf batteries? How about for the Chevy Volt batteries? Thanks, Dave Delman eLectricDeLorean.com http://www.evalbum.com/1482http://www.evalbum.com/1482 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/415cb63e/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/415cb63e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/5ab393dc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf
On 03/31/2015 09:12 AM, via EV wrote: Anyone know what the maximum discharge rate is for the Nissan Leaf batteries? No hard facts, but here are my estimates: The Nissan leaf battery is made up of 48 modules, each providing 7-8.2 volts at 60Ah, for a total of 390-400 volt max @ 60Ah or ~24 kWh. The leaf motor is rated at 80 kW, and the battery pack is supposed to be able to provide up to 90 kW (motor + all accessories), which at maximum voltage would be 228 amps. This is around 3.8 times C (60Ah) which seems to be easily in the realm of possibility, and matches up with the fact that the fuse in the leaf battery pack is a 250 amp fuse. Individual modules MAY be able to provide 10C (600amps!) for a short period of time, but may also burst into flame or just die quickly if asked to do soI wouldn't recommend it! I expect that they can provide a solid 3C rate for a relatively decent amount of time (30 seconds anyways) without any serious ill effects in the long term, which is very much in line with other lithium batteries. For my application (S-10 pickup at 120 volts) I'll rarely need to go over a 300 amp draw (typically 50-100 amps continuous) and am planning on arranging them in sixteen series packs of 3 parallel modules, giving a 180-190 Ah battery at close to 120 volts. So my max discharge will probably be closer to the 1.7-2 C rate which feels relatively conservative to me. Jay ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] ENERDEL Battery Experiences
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150401/ddf1713f/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/2d77ee15/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Don't forget. What you get from the solar panels is gravy. You battery pack is the reservoir. Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on just the solar array under perfect conditions. You take what you can get and if it's not enough just use J1772. You will be driving under all conditions. If I was really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals or find a way to tap geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to collectbut a stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some areas much better than solar. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/07de66dc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf
Hello Jay, Parallel three modules is like paralleling six cells. This is what I did. Unlike all the cells being in series the full battery ampere is felt by all the cells. Lets say you ever get the battery ampere up to 600 amps if you are going to drag race, the maximum cell ampere will be 600/6 = 100 amps. I did a long drive yesterday going up a 5 mile slope at 40 to 50 mph. On acceleration the battery amp never went over 100 amps and the motor ampere is about 300 amps. At a constant speed, the motor ampere is held at 180 amps, the battery ampere at 60 ampere and the six cells in parallel are 60/6 = 10 amps per cell. So there will be no problem with three modules connected in parallel. After the run of 10.4 miles, it took 29.2 ampere hour. Charge the battery pack with a PFC-50 charger set at 30 amperes and it took 65 minutes to charge. The battery temperature before the run was 70 F. Turn on the battery box exhaust fans which brought in cool 55 F. morning ambient air. Let the EV set for two hours and the battery temperature was at 68 F. The ambient air was above 80 F between the space of the glass hatch back and the double layer battery box. Turn on the hatch fans to exhaust this air back to 72 degrees. Did not turn on the battery exhaust fans which may bring in a higher temperature than the battery temperature. On the return trip it was a down hill run with some level driving. The battery and motor ampere is 0 to about 30 amperes which is about 0 to 5 amperes per cell. The battery temperature at home was still 68 F!!! and was still about that temperature after charging. It is best not to remove the cells from the aluminum cases, because the aluminum cases act like a heat sink and the cells are space from the ends of the modules for air ventilation through vent holes. The modules are assemble together with about 1/8 to 3/16 inch space for air circulation. Each battery pack block should be space apart for air circulation and exhaust venting. The modules should not be touch the sides of the battery box container. I leave about 2 inch space between the modules and about 5 inches between the modules. Roland - Original Message - From: Jay Summet via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.orgmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Seeking Advice: Reusing the battery modules from a Nissan Leaf On 03/31/2015 09:12 AM, via EV wrote: Anyone know what the maximum discharge rate is for the Nissan Leaf batteries? No hard facts, but here are my estimates: The Nissan leaf battery is made up of 48 modules, each providing 7-8.2 volts at 60Ah, for a total of 390-400 volt max @ 60Ah or ~24 kWh. The leaf motor is rated at 80 kW, and the battery pack is supposed to be able to provide up to 90 kW (motor + all accessories), which at maximum voltage would be 228 amps. This is around 3.8 times C (60Ah) which seems to be easily in the realm of possibility, and matches up with the fact that the fuse in the leaf battery pack is a 250 amp fuse. Individual modules MAY be able to provide 10C (600amps!) for a short period of time, but may also burst into flame or just die quickly if asked to do soI wouldn't recommend it! I expect that they can provide a solid 3C rate for a relatively decent amount of time (30 seconds anyways) without any serious ill effects in the long term, which is very much in line with other lithium batteries. For my application (S-10 pickup at 120 volts) I'll rarely need to go over a 300 amp draw (typically 50-100 amps continuous) and am planning on arranging them in sixteen series packs of 3 parallel modules, giving a 180-190 Ah battery at close to 120 volts. So my max discharge will probably be closer to the 1.7-2 C rate which feels relatively conservative to me. Jay ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/92d4350e/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Michael Ross via EV wrote: A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate: If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've seen small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible? Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel for a roof. Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification. Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I went to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of abandoned mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there are buildings that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in the air from some old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round! Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a commuter train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling resistance and such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could make a considerable amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a land speed record for a purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar car that ran on rails! Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they *are* examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain circumstances. :-) -- Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations. (Steve Jobs) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Getting a bit OT, but I'll chime in on hydro. As has been discussed before, one of the big issues with people putting in their own PV systems or wind is that they cause a less consistent demand from the grid. We are seeing some power companies backlash by imposing a surcharge on those persons who take the bold steps of reducing their grid dependency. One of the advantages of hydro power is that energy production can be ramped up and down relatively quickly compared to coal and nuclear. It's true that we've already tapped essentially all good hydro power locations. But we've only put in a fraction of pumped storage. Pumped storage can be built as lakes or done underground in, say, abandoned coal mines. With pumped storage, existing power companies could meet their peak demands without building more expensive and polluting plants. Is there a way we can encourage power companies to build pumped storage instead of more coal, nuke, or gas turbine plants? One way is to show the power companies that its cheaper to build pumped storage than to build new traditional power plants. According to EIA http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/pdf/updated_capcost.pdf its is cheaper up front to build pumped storage than nuclear. It is also cheaper than building a coal plant that provides carbon sequestering. Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. In effect, the people installing PV and other systems are doing the power companies a favor! Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-Mar-15 11:37:52 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics. However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates. Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable in their relative niches. Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers. Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just not for most.) Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course). b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Lee, I would disagree that small wind power works well. There are no reliable efficient small wind turbines (which is why the companies that make them keep going out of business). We had the best of the recent ones a 2.4kW Skystream at my work, but Skystream is out of business - failed. We also had a Mariah Power vertical that was a total piece of junk thought they were trying hard. At NREL they were testing them in real bill paying wind and they fell apart and never passed the testing. The bottom line is it costs too much to put one up, and because you can't put up a tall tower most populated places you can't get any wind on them. A tall tower costs. Re geothermal, I was talking about making power not delivering space heat. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Lee Hart via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Michael Ross via EV wrote: A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot All true. But, there are special cases. Just to play devil's advocate: If you *are* getting power for a boat, then PV on the sail *does* make some sense. You have an enormous amount of area on those sails. I've seen small PV arrays on sailboats, but haven't seen a Yankee Clipper solar-powered racing sailboat yet. Possible? Pedaling certainly works if the vehicle is very small. Joel Davidson commuted regularly on a 3-wheel recumbent trike with a 2' x 4' PV panel for a roof. Small wind power works just fine for locations where you just don't have the room for PV, or have problems with things like snow. It can also be very cheap if done right (we have this modern propensity to vastly over-complicate everything). Remember that millions of of farmers successfully used windmills for decades before rural electrification. Geothermal is easy if you happen to be next to a river or lake. Or, I went to school in Michigan's Keewanaw peninsula. There are hundreds of abandoned mines left over from the copper mining boom times. So there are buildings that get their heating and cooling simply by ducting in the air from some old mine shaft or air vent. It's 68 deg.F year round! Also, on PV for vehicles. I've wondered why they haven't built a commuter train with PV panels on the roof. Rail has such low rolling resistance and such a huge amount of roof area that I'll bet you could make a considerable amount of your power with PV. If I wanted to set a land speed record for a purely solar powered vehicle, I'd build a solar car that ran on rails! Don't take these as serious suggestions for widespread use. But they *are* examples of special case solutions that might be useful in certain circumstances. :-) -- Sometimes when you innovate, you make mistakes. It is best to admit them quickly and get on with improving your other innovations. (Steve Jobs) -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/4efb885c/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 11:15 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Wind and hydro are just diluted forms of solar. On a planetary scale, they can't even begin to compete with solar photovoltaics. However, there are certain microclimates where the landscape concentrates either wind or hydro in such a way that either can be a superlative local source of energy -- especially if the Sun tends to hide in those same climates. Both are, ultimately, niche players...but they can be potentially indispensable in their relative niches. Again however...the hydro niches are long since already developed, and the wind niches are mostly certain coastal regions and high mountain passes. Another interesting potential good use of wind is cropland...a single individual turbine won't necessarily have impressive generating capacities, but really big numbers of them can be put in in a way that doesn't interfere with growing crops and, in so doing, significantly increase the economic productivity of the land for the farmers. Residential wind power makes sense for a few people, but only a very few people. (And it really does make all kinds of sense for certain people...just not for most.) Rooftop solar, on the other hand, is economically viable basically everywhere, including the Pacific Northwest. It's more profitable in some places than others, but it's profitable everywhere (with a few footnotes, of course). b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power company. But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power company but not sustained power. That is, the power company can use the batteries to smooth out spikes and dips but cannot use them (nor would I want my battery used that way) to provide sustained power. Sustained power must come from the power company. Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless. Much of the rest of the country does have down times and will likely continue to rely on the grid to cover those periods. Many don't even have the space to install a battery if they wanted to. So, the power companies must have the capacity to supply power through such periods. My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build pumped storage instead of coal or nukes. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com To: Peri Hartman pe...@kotatko.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 31-Mar-15 12:24:47 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle. On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory. With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for the grid at all. My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new rate structure. They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide pact. Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:12 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Thus, if the power companies were to continue to charge the same rate for electricity from pumped storage, they are making a better ROI than from building out new traditional power plants. Your analysis passes the sniff test for me from previous experience...but, in a similar vein, the _real_ competition is from rooftop solar and batteries of the type we're being told will be in the Chevy B-as-in-what-a-clueless-marketing-department Bolt and that Tesla is strongly hinting at will soon be coming from their Gigafactory. With that, the grid ostensibly gets the leveling effect the power companies want...but at the cost of losing a customer who now no longer has any need for the grid at all. My own utility, Salt River Project, just shot itself in the foot that way. People like me with existing solar installations are grandfathered for at least a couple decades -- but not if we sell the house. Everybody else...will be paying almost as much as they'd be paying without solar thanks to their new rate structure. They missed the boat. They've bought a brief window of time between now and the time of cheap batteries. They _could_ have embraced the change and become the leading installer (and maintainer and financier!) of rooftop solar as well as home batteries (sell it for the benefits of the homeowner, profit from a claim on so much power it stores at the utility's whim). Instead, they've signed their own corporate suicide pact. Once batteries *do* get cheap -- and they will very soon -- for those with capital to invest it'll be cheaper to drop off the grid entirely rather than stay connected. For new construction, solar with a battery is already cheaper than grid connect fees. And, every customer they so lose...well, the money they used to be getting from that customer now has to get spread across the remaining customers, with their rates exponentially increasing as it becomes more and more profitable for more and more people to drop off the grid. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
A sail is impractical, unmanageable, a very good way to tip over with out a keel or daggerboard. Please do not try this. Pedaling adds almost nothing as most of us have a hard time producing 100Watts continuously. Although it is good for you. You may notice that wind energy is only very high up, and to get ROI you need a large scale. So called small wind energy is a money pit with no real payback - you need an exceptional location for a small turbine to be worth the effort. Geothermal is costly because you can't drill a deep hole just anywhere and it costs a lot, then you have to deal with the difficult chemicals that come up with the steam (arsenic for example). This is not a great choice for domestic production. Industrial or neighborhood scale maybe. On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:57 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Don't forget. What you get from the solar panels is gravy. You battery pack is the reservoir. Stella which is very efficient can go 40 mph on just the solar array under perfect conditions. You take what you can get and if it's not enough just use J1772. You will be driving under all conditions. If I was really far thinking I'd throw up a sail, add pedals or find a way to tap geothermalthat said I am using the easiest way to collectbut a stationary wind energy collector has been done and in some areas much better than solar. Lawrence Rhodes -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/07de66dc/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/e140d7b9/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org the hydro niches are long since already developed Without arguing with your main point that PV is the largest market, I think your statement is not true and unfair to those who do have microhydro potential. Relatively small streams can generate household amounts of power. I built a weir and did a flow test on the seasonal stream behind us, and I estimate it could generate close to 20 kW, November through March. That's 72 Megawatt-hours annually. That's enough for all the electricity needs, including some electric baseboard heat, for over two households -- hardly an amount to neglect! Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are undeveloped. Nature has optimized the best way to optimize solar energy for maximum power through photosynthesis. -- Mary Logan Jan Steinman, EcoReality Co-op ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 12:41 PM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ben, if you can install enough batteries, as I believe you have, to go completely off the grid, then of course there's no advantage to the power company. I don't have batteries yet and no plans to install them until the finances tip sufficiently...considering I'm grandfathered with respect to SRP's new exorbitant solar-killing rate plan, that'll be some years. But, for most people, batteries in general can provide leveling to the power company but not sustained power. This is indeed the use case I believe Tesla has in mind for their initial markets. Buy their batteries even if you don't have onsite generation; fill the batteries off peak when electricity is cheap and drain them on peak when electricity is expensive. Depending on how the math works out, you could see the capital expense repaid in short order with pure profits afterwards. And it'll dramatically increase the market for such batteries, driving down prices and all the rest. Where you live, Ben, you don't need to worry about a string of 10 cloudy dark days where solar PVs will be next to worthless. Many places as dire as you describe also have provisions for home heating oil or natural gas other energy inputs that could trivially be adapted to power a generator for a while. And, until batteries get big and cheap enough, it'll likely make sense even here in Arizona to have a small generator to tide over a couple days of winter weather now and again. As a bonus...such a generator really can be minimal. It doesn't need to meet peak demands, but only average demands and let the batteries handle the peaks. My claim is the power companies stand to make more profit if they build pumped storage instead of coal or nukes. I strongly suspect you're right. But *my* claim is that at least some individuals (and companies like SolarCity) already today stand to make more profit with rooftop solar and batteries than with anything the utilities can offer, and that the number of such individuals will climb rapidly as battery prices fall until, eventually, nobody's left who wants to by _any_ power the utility might want to sell -- pumped storage or no. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
[EVDL] Line and Load on Breakers
When putting a Heinemann breaker on the negative side of a traction pack, do you reverse the connections so that the current still flows in the same direction though the breaker? That is, should the Line side of the breaker be connected to the B- terminal of the controller, and the Load side of the breaker be attached to pack negative? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Line and Load on Breakers
Hello Bill, You have to look at the specifications of a breaker. Some breakers have a combination AC and DC rating. A 600 volt AC breaker can be use on a 250 VDC circuit. In this case the LINE side goes to the power source. We install these type of dual voltage breakers that supply either AC or DC loads. You can also back feed these breakers, meaning we can supply a power source, such as a emergency generator to the branch side of the breaker which is the same as the load side in normal operation. Some breakers have a screen vent on the load side of the breaker. This is to vent the smoke that comes from the ark of the contacts. In this type of breaker, make sure that the breaker is mounted vertical with load terminals on the top. Roland - Original Message - From: Bill Dennis via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 4:40 PM Subject: [EVDL] Line and Load on Breakers When putting a Heinemann breaker on the negative side of a traction pack, do you reverse the connections so that the current still flows in the same direction though the breaker? That is, should the Line side of the breaker be connected to the B- terminal of the controller, and the Load side of the breaker be attached to pack negative? Thanks, Bill ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150331/14d76f28/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] Making solar work in a conventional vehicle.
On Mar 31, 2015, at 2:02 PM, Jan Steinman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Micro-hydro remains the most economical, trouble-free way for anyone with a stream and 100+ feet of head to obtain electric power. Granted, only a small minority meet those specifications, but I would submit that most of those are undeveloped. I wouldn't challenge you on that. I'd just suggest that that's about as niche as niche gets b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
