Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 17 Jan 2016 at 19:48, lektwik via EV wrote:

> The technology you manage to put together in your "niche" car won't
> even come close to what Tesla (and other automakers) are capable of. 

Probably not, but after more thought, I'm not so sure any more that that 
really matters much after all.  The people who'll buy his cars aren't likely 
to ever drive them anywhere near the limit.  It's probably enough for the 
cars to look fast and feel fast and - especially - COST fast.  

I'm guessing that the most important features are the price tag, and the 
fact that a guy making a quarter of the buyer's eight-figure salary won't be 
able to get one.  

The fact that it's an EV is just another source of image for the customer.  
That would make it appropriate for a big bucks financier to buy for his 
"environmentally conscious" mistress, for example.

I see where Jack's coming from about not having much time to think this 
over. The time to do something like this was really 5-10 years ago, when 
production EVs were essentially unavailable.  OTOH, Jack's business advisors 
probably wouldn't have even thought of suggesting an EV back then. 

It's easy for us to be cynical about this kind of enterprise.  Probably very 
few of us ever have any significant contact with the world of Jack's 
customers (or want to).  But there's a whole niche market devoted to selling 
ultra-luxurious-high-end stuff, and not just cars, to people who have more 
money coming in than they can ever possibly spend.  These are the kind of 
folks who will drop a few tens of millions on a daughter's wedding, for 
example, or hire a caterer-planner for a 70-person birthday party at $6-10k 
per guest.

What you sell them has to doesn't have to actually be all that good, though 
that's a nice side benefit.  It does have to LOOK good, and be exclusive and 
expensive.  

For many reasons, I could never do what Jack is trying to do, but I wish him 
luck in it.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[lektwik via EV]

Bill Dube' wrote:
>I understand your desire to make a big bucks, high performance EV,
>but Tesla has simply beat you to the punch. Tesla beat _everyone_ to the
punch.
>They will continue to beat everyone to the punch.

I tend to agree with everything Bill has said on this issue. The technology
you manage to put together in your "niche" car won't even come close to
what Tesla (and other automakers) are capable of.

As far as being quicker than a Tesla, you will require similar cutting-edge
four-wheel traction control and the power to drive it. A Tesla updates the
feedback continuously from each wheel in a small handful of milliseconds.
You will never get as close to the limits of adhesion as Tesla does without
the implementation of equal/better technology. The accepted technique to
getting lowest ET from a Tesla is simply to stomp the go-pedal to the floor
as quickly as possible. Everything else is taken care of for you.

I can just envision Elon at a company meeting hearing an engineer suggest
that the Model III have only two-wheel drive. Just ain't gonna happen. Will
your niche market car also have self-driving features?

On Thu, Jan 14, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:

> You _think_ you aren't competing with Tesla, but you will be. Your
> customers will compare the virtues of your car to the Tesla, and you must
> offer something that the Tesla does not. Nothing you have said would lure a
> customer towards your concept EV and away from buying a Tesla. Teslas have
> insane performance, and they cost less than $120k, and they have 200+ miles
> of range.
>
> Folks simply _must_ have range. That is why Tesla sells, because it has
> _unbelievable_ range. People won't pay big bucks for an EV that doesn't
> have similar range to a Tesla. (It is impossible to talk a person out of
> range they can buy elsewhere at the same price.)
>
> Folks new to EVs think "I'll just put a bigger battery pack into the car,
> and that will easily take care of aerodynamic drag problems which will cure
> my range issues." It doesn't, unfortunately. A bigger pack takes more room,
> which you don't have to give. You end up with a battery with a driver's
> seat.
>
> If there a better battery technology becomes available, Tesla will offer
> it as a retrofit. (The offer an upgrade on the battery pack if you bought a
> Roadster, for example.)
>
> You think, "I'll just give up range." and offer a car that has 50 miles of
> range, but stellar performance. The trouble is, your performance really
> can't do much better than a Tesla, at least on ordinary pavement. Tesla is
> up against the traction limit of ordinary pavement. You really can't get
> much faster acceleration than 0-60 mph in 2.8 seconds on the street. Your
> tires won't grip any better.
>
> I understand your desire to make a big bucks, high performance EV, but
> Tesla has simply beat you to the punch. Tesla beat _everyone_ to the punch.
> They will continue to beat everyone to the punch.
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 10:19 AM 1/14/2016, Jack Wendel wrote:
>
>> Bill wrote:Â
>>
>> If you are going to sell them after you build one of your own, it is
>> going to be very difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and
>> value/dollar.
>>
>>
>> The assumption that I plan to compete with Tesla out of the gate is
>> simply crazy. Tesla has a HUGE head start over me. If it were possible for
>> me to compete either of the following would have to be true:Â
>>
>> 1) Tesla engineers are all idiots.Â
>> 2) I am smarter than all the Tesla engineers combined.Â
>> 3) Tesla hasn't learned a thing in all the years they have been in
>> development and production.Â
>>
>> Since we can safely assume 1 and 3 are not true, thanks for the
>> compliment Bill! ;^)Â
>>
>> You want a convertible, cut the top off of a Tesla. Do it very nicely and
>> neatly of course, but that would be your best option. Sell that customized
>> model of a Tesla, using the same business model as van conversions, stretch
>> limos, and bulletproof cars use.
>>
>>
>> That would be great if I wanted to be in the business of converting Â
>> cars. I don't. Someone else can do that if they want to.Â
>> Â
>> One thing that you are not taking into account is that all OEM EVs are
>> _very_ aerodynamic. (No exceptions.) This is directly related to range, the
>> cost of the battery pack, the weight of the battery pack, and the cost of
>> the car. A car with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a car with a
>> heavy (and expensive) battery pack to make up for a bad Cd will take a
>> performance hit because of the extra weight, and won't sell either.Â
>>
>>
>> Your assumptions are based on your perspective of value. Obviously
>> nothing wrong with that and it's probably quite similar  to others on this
>> list. No offense, but no one on this list would be a target customer of
>> mine exactly for that reason. My target customers have a COMPLETELY
>> different perspective of value.Â
>> Â
>> ICE cars really 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

"A key element to be a successful entrepreneur
 is a certain amount of
naiveté, because if you actually know how hard the problem is when you set
out, you don't do it." - Martin Eberhard, Stanford University, 10/10/07
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Bill wrote:


> Over the decades that I have been involved in EVs, when folks aren't
> interested in starting with a small project (and a cheap project) to learn
> the basics before taking on a full-size, high-power, EV project, it often
> does not end well. Everyone that is very successful in EVs started out with
> a small, inexpensive, project. I can't think of any exception. There are
> likely a few, but they are rare. It is an important step in the learning
> process that has proved expensive to skip.


But, unlike you Bill, I don't want the learning experience, I want the end
goal. And I need it as quickly as possible. I am more than willing to
contract it out if it will get me to the end goal faster. I can learn all
about EVs later. I'll ask the people that built them for me to teach me
once the business gets going. And I'll be more than willing to teach them
how to design and build cars.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Hi Jack,

There are actually several ways a high power, high voltage DC system could kill 
you.  That is my main point.  It is easy to touch the wrong places and get 
electrocuted.  It is also easy to get a plasma fire that can't be extinguished 
until the batteries die or the circuit is cut.  High resistance connections can 
catch fire under load.  

It is possible to work with high voltage DC safely, but it is also easy to make 
mistakes that don't seem so bad, but are serious.  It really needs to be 
respected.  I have gotten a jolt from my car when I didn't realise my frame had 
battery voltage because of a cable assembly error that was letting voltage leak 
through the shrink wrap insulation.  It didn't kill me, but my system is only 
150V.  It might have at 400V.

You are right that I wouldn't pursue your project that way, but it should be 
interesting to watch.  Do keep us posted, and stay safe.

Mike


On January 16, 2016 5:23:09 PM MST, Jack Wendel  
wrote:
>Mike sent:
>
>I have one more bit of unsolicited advice.  From the information below,
>you
>> are obviously very experienced with high performance gasoline
>engines.  I
>> would bet that you worked with many other ICE projects before you
>tackled
>> the 1000 hp nitrous engine.
>>
>
>Actually that's 1600 hp with the nitrous but who's counting? ;^)
>
>
>> If you were talking to somebody that wanted to build a 650 hp
>> super-charged race car as a first project with gasoline engines, what
>would
>> you recommend to them?  Would you recommend that they start with a
>smaller
>> project that was less performance with less things to go wrong?  That
>is
>> what I would recommend, personally.
>>
>
>Ahhh, that's what's different between you and me. You want to go "the
>safe
>route" that thousands before you have gone. My approach is "Screw that!
>In
>the end it will only get me to where thousands already are. What's the
>point in that?!?"
>
>
>> The electric drive you want to build is the equivalent of that race
>car
>> motor.  Personally, I would recommend some sort of lower performance
>> project to learn on first.  Make the mistakes with a 50-100 kW system
>> rather than a 400-500 kW system.  Either one could cause serious
>damage or
>> injury, but the high power system can do it a lot faster.
>>
>
>Is it going to kill me? Not likely... what doesn't kill me makes me
>stronger. What comes closest to killing me on the way gets me there
>quicker.
>
>
>> You could probably get a conversion project from someone else for a
>few
>> thousand dollars.  Take that apart and put it together.  You will
>learn a
>> lot.  Read through the EVDL archives.  There are a lot of subtle
>items that
>> don't seem that important, but are critical.  For example, fuses and
>> contactors that are suitable for AC may be completely inappropriate
>to use
>> on a high voltage DC system.  They could be the starting point of a
>plasma
>> fire if something goes wrong.
>>
>
>Personally, I'd rather contract out the whole EV thing. My goal is not
>to
>become an EV expert. My goal is to have an EV ONLY because it is a
>marketing tool. I personally would be just as happy with an ICE because
>I
>can't justify the added cost of an EV.
>
>
>> Be careful and meticulous with all your assembly.  You need to take
>as
>> much care with assembly and torquing all your electrical connections
>as you
>> would be in assembling an engine.
>>
>
>Anyone on the list want to do the EV part for me?
>
>
>> This is an exciting project you are tackling.
>>
>
>Well, if I have to go the "safe route" the EV option is out. I simply
>do
>not have the luxury of the time it would take.
>
>Let me explain... Tesla already has the "$100k family car EV" market,
>so no
>point in going there. They soon should have the $100k EV SUV market as
>well.  GM beat them to the punch with the "affordable 200 mile EV".
>They
>won;t sell a lot because $37,500 isn't really "affordable" for and ugly
>EV
>with only 200 miles of range when you can buy an ugly ICE with 400
>miles of
>range for half of that.
>
>That said, I see the gap between those and above those filling very
>rapidly
>with EVs no later than 2 years from now. So I have LESS THAN 2 years to
>get
>past a prototype and into limited production. If I had an EV prototype
>meeting my performance goals tomorrow it would still be difficult to
>hit
>that target. If I screw around for 6 months to a year playing around
>with
>low end EV conversions, I might as well hang up the entire project
>right
>now. Oh I could get a car to market with that approach, but it will be
>"Too
>little, too late". Besides, I'll run out of money taking that route as
>well. Every penny I spend on distractions is a penny I can't send
>towards
>reaching my goal.
>
>So, if I had unlimited time and unlimited budget, the "safe route"
>would
>work. But I simply don't believe that I do.
>
>Since you asked...  I would recommend someone
>
>1) Hire a professional to find a good used race 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

Like converting a small motorcycle? Like I suggested near the beginning 
of this thread?


Over the decades that I have been involved in EVs, when folks aren't 
interested in starting with a small project (and a cheap project) to 
learn the basics before taking on a full-size, high-power, EV project, 
it often does not end well. Everyone that is very successful in EVs 
started out with a small, inexpensive, project. I can't think of any 
exception. There are likely a few, but they are rare. It is an important 
step in the learning process that has proved expensive to skip.


Bill Dube'

On 1/16/2016 12:53 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:

Hi Jack,

I have one more bit of unsolicited advice.  From the information below, you are 
obviously very experienced with high performance gasoline engines.  I would bet 
that you worked with many other ICE projects before you tackled the 1000 hp 
nitrous engine.

If you were talking to somebody that wanted to build a 650 hp super-charged 
race car as a first project with gasoline engines, what would you recommend to 
them?  Would you recommend that they start with a smaller project that was less 
performance with less things to go wrong?  That is what I would recommend, 
personally.

The electric drive you want to build is the equivalent of that race car motor.  
Personally, I would recommend some sort of lower performance project to learn 
on first.  Make the mistakes with a 50-100 kW system rather than a 400-500 kW 
system.  Either one could cause serious damage or injury, but the high power 
system can do it a lot faster.

You could probably get a conversion project from someone else for a few 
thousand dollars.  Take that apart and put it together.  You will learn a lot.  
Read through the EVDL archives.  There are a lot of subtle items that don't 
seem that important, but are critical.  For example, fuses and contactors that 
are suitable for AC may be completely inappropriate to use on a high voltage DC 
system.  They could be the starting point of a plasma fire if something goes 
wrong.

Be careful and meticulous with all your assembly.  You need to take as much 
care with assembly and torquing all your electrical connections as you would be 
in assembling an engine.

This is an exciting project you are tackling.

Mike


On January 15, 2016 10:11:11 AM MST, Jack Wendel via EV  
wrote:

Wow David, thanks for the well thought out response! I really do
appreciate
it.

First, I am NOT looking for investors.
Second, the "At least I will have my own car!" response is to shut down
the
naysayers. You can find MANY people to tell you how to build your
business
that have no experience building the business you are building. When
the
car was originally going to be an ICE car I had more people than I can
count say "You can't do what you are trying to do!". While I am not
done
with the car, the 75% I have done has already proven them wrong.
The business of building and selling my car is not in question, the
only
thing in question is whether or not it will be an EV.
If I believed I had to out Tesla Tesla, I never would have started this
project. If that were true Tesla would have put ALL other cars out of
business.
Setting the goal of outperforming Tesla out of the gate would be like
running before I ever learn to walk. Again, the prototype is simply a
"Proof of Concept". Since this is all self-financed, co$t HAS to be a
major
concern. Wasting money on an AC system at this stage would be fiscally
irresponsible.

WHY am I not looking for investors?
1) They are offering less than 10% of the projected value of my
business
for a majority share. I'm not selling my drear for less that 1/10th of
what
it is worth.
2) If I have investors I'd just be working for someone else. No thanks,
I'll keep my day job of working for someone else.
3) All investors care about is scaling the business as quickly as
possible.
That's the BEST way I know to run out of ca$h and drive the business
under
before it ever gets started.
4) My business model is low volume production. High volume isn't even
on
the radar. I can do what I want to do with my business out of my 30' x
30'
garage.
5) IF my business takes off I will scale up. But only when, and if,
sales
greatly exceed capacity. Every additional expense added to the business
to
scale will REQUIRE increasing the scale just to break even. Overhead is
the
one expense I need to avoid to ensure success at low volume.
6) Scaling actually HURTS my business with my target market. For them,
Teslas have lost their appeal because they are "Too affordable and too
common". My goal is to avoid that "trap".
7) Too many business owners that have brought investors in have
eventually
been run out of their own business by the investors. I'm not willing to
take that risk. So if "Staying small" is the result of keeping my
business
100% my own, so be it. I prefer that to working for someone else.

BTW, contrary to common belief, Elon Musk did NOT invent 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Doesn't seem that far off.  The Tesla has 490 kW for 4600 pound car.  I 
calculated 485 kW for a 4000 pound car that is lighter, but not as aerodynamic. 
   I figure that 450 kW plus or minus 50 kW is about as close as one could 
expect for this type of "back of the envelope" calculation.

Mike


On January 15, 2016 6:32:12 AM MST, dovepa via EV  wrote:
>I believe you numbers are off the Tesla P85D has a 350 kW motor in back
>and 140 KW motor in front.
>Converting to horsepower is mostly meaningless though what matters is
>torque.
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original
>message From: Mike Nickerson via EV  Date:
>1/14/2016  11:31 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Jack Wendel
>, Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on
>converting a car to ev? 
>Hi Jack,
>
>I just ran some numbers, and I think it is important to realize that
>you are essentially talking Tesla P85 or P85D levels of performance.  I
>wasn't sure what Corvette you were talking about, so I chose a
>relatively high end, but stock model.  I used the Z06 as an example.
>
>The Z06 is about 3500 pounds stock.  As a high performance EV, it will
>probably gain about 500 pounds, so a total weight of 4000 pounds.  The
>Z06 has a 0-60 time of 2.95 seconds and a quarter mile time of 10.95
>seconds.
>
>You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The
>Tesla P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.  That
>650 hp is about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need 1200
>amps from your batteries, through the controller, and into your
>motor(s).  That is serious power! 
>
>That is high end Tesla or high end drag racer territory.  Systems like
>the Leaf just don't have the power you need.  The Leaf system, for
>example, is only 107 hp or 79 kW.  Most batteries don't have the energy
>density to provide that kind of current and power.  The small format
>cells used by Tesla have much higher current capability than most EV
>cells.
>
>Another point:  While you might not need the Tesla range, a
>significantly smaller battery might not be able to provide the same
>power levels.  Larger battery packs can provide more power than smaller
>packs.
>
>Finally, you need to figure out where to put all the cells in a body
>that doesn't have much space.  Ideally, for best handling, you would
>like to get them in the floor.  That lowers the center of gravity.  It
>might help with space issues too.
>
>Personally, I would be looking at Tesla parts, rather than Leaf parts. 
>They are a much better match with your needs.  If using Leaf motors,
>you might need 3 or 4 motors.  However, the Leaf battery can't provide
>the necessary power.
>
>Finally, I can't resist a comment about your business plan.  I can't
>really comment on how well the plan will work with the target market,
>since that is so far outside my experience.  I am an engineer (with a
>Tesla P85 and a home conversion), and don't have any concept of
>vehicles as fashion accessories.  However, I do know that you aren't
>the only person with that target market in mind.  There aren't that
>many people that can drop that kind of money, so you have to find some
>way to stand out from the others trying to market to the same few.
>
>Are any of your advisors investing their own money in the project? 
>That is one way to judge their confidence in their advice.
>
>Mike
>P.S.  The Tesla Model S P85D with ludicrous mode would still beat the
>Z06 in 0-60 and quarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).
>
>
>On January 14, 2016 1:04:31 PM MST, Jack Wendel via EV
> wrote:
>>Wow Lee, thanks for all the info! It let me know that DC motors aren't
>>as
>>"bad" as I was led to believe.
>>
>>I am a professional Agile/Lean software development coach. Our motto
>is
>>"Fail fast and learn". This means it is better to do something wrong
>>and
>>learn what you can from it as quickly as possible than to spend
>>excessive
>>time in planning for a "perfect" solution and end up with nothing but
>>documents.
>>
>>I think of my prototype car as a "EV minibike" or "EV gocart" that
>>someone
>>suggested as a starter project for learning. My "EV gocart" just
>>happens to
>>be a lot bigger.
>>
>>"DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an expensive luxury sports
>>car.
>>You want cutting-edge style, you want flash and glamor; you want to
>>make a
>>statement."
>>
>>Exactly why my production car will be AC and have regenerative
>braking.
>>The
>>prototype will not have either of these because they provide minimal
>>increase in utility (real value to me) relative to the significant
>>increase
>>in cost and complexity.
>>
>>The goals for my "oversize EV gocart" are:
>>
>>1) Make passes down a dragstrip and be quicker than a stock Corvette
>>(as
>>good or better than a "performance ICE").
>>2) Be able to provide "short test rides" to people at 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I have seen a person measure the length of a small li-ion cell with a 
pair of calipers.
If you had to think, for even a moment, "What's wrong with measuring a 
cell with a pair of calipers?" then you need to build a "learner EV 
project" like a small scooter, go cart, or motorcycle.


It is sound advice. Take a month or two to do it and you will 
understand.  Design it. Select the parts. Build it. There is nothing 
like hands on experience (with something small and low-powered that 
won't kill you or burn down your garage.)


Bill D.


On 1/16/2016 9:03 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:

Hi Jack,

There are actually several ways a high power, high voltage DC system could kill 
you.  That is my main point.  It is easy to touch the wrong places and get 
electrocuted.  It is also easy to get a plasma fire that can't be extinguished 
until the batteries die or the circuit is cut.  High resistance connections can 
catch fire under load.

It is possible to work with high voltage DC safely, but it is also easy to make 
mistakes that don't seem so bad, but are serious.  It really needs to be 
respected.  I have gotten a jolt from my car when I didn't realise my frame had 
battery voltage because of a cable assembly error that was letting voltage leak 
through the shrink wrap insulation.  It didn't kill me, but my system is only 
150V.  It might have at 400V.

You are right that I wouldn't pursue your project that way, but it should be 
interesting to watch.  Do keep us posted, and stay safe.

Mike


On January 16, 2016 5:23:09 PM MST, Jack Wendel  
wrote:

Mike sent:

I have one more bit of unsolicited advice.  From the information below,
you

are obviously very experienced with high performance gasoline

engines.  I

would bet that you worked with many other ICE projects before you

tackled

the 1000 hp nitrous engine.


Actually that's 1600 hp with the nitrous but who's counting? ;^)



If you were talking to somebody that wanted to build a 650 hp
super-charged race car as a first project with gasoline engines, what

would

you recommend to them?  Would you recommend that they start with a

smaller

project that was less performance with less things to go wrong?  That

is

what I would recommend, personally.


Ahhh, that's what's different between you and me. You want to go "the
safe
route" that thousands before you have gone. My approach is "Screw that!
In
the end it will only get me to where thousands already are. What's the
point in that?!?"



The electric drive you want to build is the equivalent of that race

car

motor.  Personally, I would recommend some sort of lower performance
project to learn on first.  Make the mistakes with a 50-100 kW system
rather than a 400-500 kW system.  Either one could cause serious

damage or

injury, but the high power system can do it a lot faster.


Is it going to kill me? Not likely... what doesn't kill me makes me
stronger. What comes closest to killing me on the way gets me there
quicker.



You could probably get a conversion project from someone else for a

few

thousand dollars.  Take that apart and put it together.  You will

learn a

lot.  Read through the EVDL archives.  There are a lot of subtle

items that

don't seem that important, but are critical.  For example, fuses and
contactors that are suitable for AC may be completely inappropriate

to use

on a high voltage DC system.  They could be the starting point of a

plasma

fire if something goes wrong.


Personally, I'd rather contract out the whole EV thing. My goal is not
to
become an EV expert. My goal is to have an EV ONLY because it is a
marketing tool. I personally would be just as happy with an ICE because
I
can't justify the added cost of an EV.



Be careful and meticulous with all your assembly.  You need to take

as

much care with assembly and torquing all your electrical connections

as you

would be in assembling an engine.


Anyone on the list want to do the EV part for me?



This is an exciting project you are tackling.


Well, if I have to go the "safe route" the EV option is out. I simply
do
not have the luxury of the time it would take.

Let me explain... Tesla already has the "$100k family car EV" market,
so no
point in going there. They soon should have the $100k EV SUV market as
well.  GM beat them to the punch with the "affordable 200 mile EV".
They
won;t sell a lot because $37,500 isn't really "affordable" for and ugly
EV
with only 200 miles of range when you can buy an ugly ICE with 400
miles of
range for half of that.

That said, I see the gap between those and above those filling very
rapidly
with EVs no later than 2 years from now. So I have LESS THAN 2 years to
get
past a prototype and into limited production. If I had an EV prototype
meeting my performance goals tomorrow it would still be difficult to
hit
that target. If I screw around for 6 months to a year playing around
with
low end EV conversions, I might as well hang up the entire project
right

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Mike sent:

I have one more bit of unsolicited advice.  From the information below, you
> are obviously very experienced with high performance gasoline engines.  I
> would bet that you worked with many other ICE projects before you tackled
> the 1000 hp nitrous engine.
>

Actually that's 1600 hp with the nitrous but who's counting? ;^)


> If you were talking to somebody that wanted to build a 650 hp
> super-charged race car as a first project with gasoline engines, what would
> you recommend to them?  Would you recommend that they start with a smaller
> project that was less performance with less things to go wrong?  That is
> what I would recommend, personally.
>

Ahhh, that's what's different between you and me. You want to go "the safe
route" that thousands before you have gone. My approach is "Screw that! In
the end it will only get me to where thousands already are. What's the
point in that?!?"


> The electric drive you want to build is the equivalent of that race car
> motor.  Personally, I would recommend some sort of lower performance
> project to learn on first.  Make the mistakes with a 50-100 kW system
> rather than a 400-500 kW system.  Either one could cause serious damage or
> injury, but the high power system can do it a lot faster.
>

Is it going to kill me? Not likely... what doesn't kill me makes me
stronger. What comes closest to killing me on the way gets me there
quicker.


> You could probably get a conversion project from someone else for a few
> thousand dollars.  Take that apart and put it together.  You will learn a
> lot.  Read through the EVDL archives.  There are a lot of subtle items that
> don't seem that important, but are critical.  For example, fuses and
> contactors that are suitable for AC may be completely inappropriate to use
> on a high voltage DC system.  They could be the starting point of a plasma
> fire if something goes wrong.
>

Personally, I'd rather contract out the whole EV thing. My goal is not to
become an EV expert. My goal is to have an EV ONLY because it is a
marketing tool. I personally would be just as happy with an ICE because I
can't justify the added cost of an EV.


> Be careful and meticulous with all your assembly.  You need to take as
> much care with assembly and torquing all your electrical connections as you
> would be in assembling an engine.
>

Anyone on the list want to do the EV part for me?


> This is an exciting project you are tackling.
>

Well, if I have to go the "safe route" the EV option is out. I simply do
not have the luxury of the time it would take.

Let me explain... Tesla already has the "$100k family car EV" market, so no
point in going there. They soon should have the $100k EV SUV market as
well.  GM beat them to the punch with the "affordable 200 mile EV". They
won;t sell a lot because $37,500 isn't really "affordable" for and ugly EV
with only 200 miles of range when you can buy an ugly ICE with 400 miles of
range for half of that.

That said, I see the gap between those and above those filling very rapidly
with EVs no later than 2 years from now. So I have LESS THAN 2 years to get
past a prototype and into limited production. If I had an EV prototype
meeting my performance goals tomorrow it would still be difficult to hit
that target. If I screw around for 6 months to a year playing around with
low end EV conversions, I might as well hang up the entire project right
now. Oh I could get a car to market with that approach, but it will be "Too
little, too late". Besides, I'll run out of money taking that route as
well. Every penny I spend on distractions is a penny I can't send towards
reaching my goal.

So, if I had unlimited time and unlimited budget, the "safe route" would
work. But I simply don't believe that I do.

Since you asked...  I would recommend someone

1) Hire a professional to find a good used race car from someone moving up
to the 2500 horsepower class. Used race cars are (relatively) cheap at
somewhere between $20k and $75k (it would cost 4 times that and 1 - 2 years
to have one built).
2) Go to a drag racing school. One weekend, $8k, 5 second 1/4 mile at 240
mph. Fastest and easiest way to get the license required to race a car that
goes that fast.
3) Start racing the weekend after the class!

If you find out it's not for you, sell the car and you still can say you
drove a 5 secind 240 mph funny car and you have the license to prove it!
Few people can say that. Value: PRICELESS!!!

I did it the way you recommend and it took me decades. Wish I had known
then what I know now. I would have been a MUCH younger guy racing VERY
quick cars! More accurately, I'd be my age still but have DECADES more
experience racing those cars.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Jack,

If you aren't familiar with Bill Dube, you might check out the website below:

http://killacycleracing.com/

Bill has more experience with high power electric vehicles than you might 
realize.

Mike


On January 16, 2016 10:17:12 PM MST, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>I have seen a person measure the length of a small li-ion cell with a 
>pair of calipers.
>If you had to think, for even a moment, "What's wrong with measuring a 
>cell with a pair of calipers?" then you need to build a "learner EV 
>project" like a small scooter, go cart, or motorcycle.
>
>It is sound advice. Take a month or two to do it and you will 
>understand.  Design it. Select the parts. Build it. There is nothing 
>like hands on experience (with something small and low-powered that 
>won't kill you or burn down your garage.)
>
>Bill D.
>
>
>On 1/16/2016 9:03 PM, Mike Nickerson via EV wrote:
>> Hi Jack,
>>
>> There are actually several ways a high power, high voltage DC system
>could kill you.  That is my main point.  It is easy to touch the wrong
>places and get electrocuted.  It is also easy to get a plasma fire that
>can't be extinguished until the batteries die or the circuit is cut. 
>High resistance connections can catch fire under load.
>>
>> It is possible to work with high voltage DC safely, but it is also
>easy to make mistakes that don't seem so bad, but are serious.  It
>really needs to be respected.  I have gotten a jolt from my car when I
>didn't realise my frame had battery voltage because of a cable assembly
>error that was letting voltage leak through the shrink wrap insulation.
> It didn't kill me, but my system is only 150V.  It might have at 400V.
>>
>> You are right that I wouldn't pursue your project that way, but it
>should be interesting to watch.  Do keep us posted, and stay safe.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> On January 16, 2016 5:23:09 PM MST, Jack Wendel
> wrote:
>>> Mike sent:
>>>
>>> I have one more bit of unsolicited advice.  From the information
>below,
>>> you
 are obviously very experienced with high performance gasoline
>>> engines.  I
 would bet that you worked with many other ICE projects before you
>>> tackled
 the 1000 hp nitrous engine.

>>> Actually that's 1600 hp with the nitrous but who's counting? ;^)
>>>
>>>
 If you were talking to somebody that wanted to build a 650 hp
 super-charged race car as a first project with gasoline engines,
>what
>>> would
 you recommend to them?  Would you recommend that they start with a
>>> smaller
 project that was less performance with less things to go wrong? 
>That
>>> is
 what I would recommend, personally.

>>> Ahhh, that's what's different between you and me. You want to go
>"the
>>> safe
>>> route" that thousands before you have gone. My approach is "Screw
>that!
>>> In
>>> the end it will only get me to where thousands already are. What's
>the
>>> point in that?!?"
>>>
>>>
 The electric drive you want to build is the equivalent of that race
>>> car
 motor.  Personally, I would recommend some sort of lower
>performance
 project to learn on first.  Make the mistakes with a 50-100 kW
>system
 rather than a 400-500 kW system.  Either one could cause serious
>>> damage or
 injury, but the high power system can do it a lot faster.

>>> Is it going to kill me? Not likely... what doesn't kill me makes me
>>> stronger. What comes closest to killing me on the way gets me there
>>> quicker.
>>>
>>>
 You could probably get a conversion project from someone else for a
>>> few
 thousand dollars.  Take that apart and put it together.  You will
>>> learn a
 lot.  Read through the EVDL archives.  There are a lot of subtle
>>> items that
 don't seem that important, but are critical.  For example, fuses
>and
 contactors that are suitable for AC may be completely inappropriate
>>> to use
 on a high voltage DC system.  They could be the starting point of a
>>> plasma
 fire if something goes wrong.

>>> Personally, I'd rather contract out the whole EV thing. My goal is
>not
>>> to
>>> become an EV expert. My goal is to have an EV ONLY because it is a
>>> marketing tool. I personally would be just as happy with an ICE
>because
>>> I
>>> can't justify the added cost of an EV.
>>>
>>>
 Be careful and meticulous with all your assembly.  You need to take
>>> as
 much care with assembly and torquing all your electrical
>connections
>>> as you
 would be in assembling an engine.

>>> Anyone on the list want to do the EV part for me?
>>>
>>>
 This is an exciting project you are tackling.

>>> Well, if I have to go the "safe route" the EV option is out. I
>simply
>>> do
>>> not have the luxury of the time it would take.
>>>
>>> Let me explain... Tesla already has the "$100k family car EV"
>market,
>>> so no
>>> point in going there. They soon should have the $100k EV SUV market
>as
>>> well.  GM beat them to the punch with the 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

Motor Heat & RPM's
http://www.go-ev.com/PDFs/005_006_SU060213_Heat_RPM.pdf
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Lee Hart via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  12:52 PM  
(GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  Subject: 
Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
dovepa via EV wrote:
> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway 
> speed for extended periods of time. With the advance in battery technology 
> this is causing some people issues.

Series motors intended for on-road EVs have built-in fans. I've never 
needed to provide extra cooling for them in any of my EVs. The internal 
fan works *better* at high speeds -- most actually have more cooling 
than they need at high RPM. The internal fan is also an advantage they 
have over AC motors, which generally require a complex liquid cooling 
system.

Now if you're talking about a fork lift motor, some of them *are* 
sealed. They're for light-duty use (such as to run the hydraulic pumps 
for steering and lifting), or for operation in dirty or hazardous 
environments where a spark might set of an explosion.

EVDL Administrator wrote:
> I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low
> because the controller is relatively simple.

It's the combination of many things. Based on the generally available 
examples, DC motor advantages:

- Old tech: Simpler to understand, design, and use.
- Same RPM range as an ICE makes conversion easier.
- Torque-speed curves match an ICE+transmission. Maximum torque
at lowest speeds, even without a transmission.
- Easy to get: Mass produced, untold millions already in circulation.
- Cheaper: No rare earth magnets, fewer expensive power transistors,
microcontrollers and software not even needed.
- Rugged and durable. Can produce extremely high peak horsepower
without failing (which is why racers and railroad locomotives
use them).
- Very simple controllers. Can even be little more than contactors.
- Cooling usually built-in.
- Adaptable: Don't need to carefully match motors and controllers.
- Long life: Plenty of examples 50-100 years old.

On the other hand, the usual drawbacks of DC motors include...

- Boring old tech: Not fashionable.
- Lower efficiency: A consequence of being designed to be cheap
rather than efficient.
- Common examples don't do regen. It takes extra parts, so it's
usually left out to keep it simple and save money.
- Brush maintenance. Often exaggerated; brushes last at least 10x
longer than ICE oil changes.
- Hard to liquid-cool a DC motor due to the commutator. Air
cooled motors are noisier (though far less so than ICEs).

> You can't fireball the commutator of an AC induction motor because it
> doesn't have one.

No; but you can fireball the AC motor's controller. :-)

In these perennial AC vs. DC debates, it's important to keep in mind 
that they are fraternal twins. One boy, one girl; but otherwise nearly 
identical. Every generality like "boys are stronger" or "girls are 
smarter" will fail, because you can always find examples where the 
opposite is true.

All motors are really AC devices. The commutator is just a simple crude 
example of an electronic inverter. Anything you can do to optimize some 
aspect of an AC motor can also be done to a DC motor (and vice versa).

So, you can compare a *specific* AC motor to a *specific* DC motor. But 
you can't generalize from this that all motors of that type will have 
these same characteristics.

> Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.
> Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.

That is a consequence of the cheap plastic commutators in common use. 
There are banded and steel commutators that work fine at very high RPM.

In automotive applications, you don't really want high RPM as it 
requires an excessive amount of gear reduction to get it down to wheel 
speed.

> A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load...
> You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical
> failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.

Yes. These are consequences of making the controller *too* simple. As 
Einstein said, "Things should be kept as simple as possible. But not 
*too* simple."

Complex systems also have these failure modes, as Audi and Toyota have 
found to their dismay (unintended acceleration).

> Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not
> the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is
> generally not recommended for use in a road EV.

True; but a consequence of not designing regen into the controller to 
begin with. Since every motor (AC or DC) is intrinsically a generator as 
well, there are lots of DC motor systems that *do* have effective 
regen... when it 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

I believe you numbers are off the Tesla P85D has a 350 kW motor in back and 140 
KW motor in front.
Converting to horsepower is mostly meaningless though what matters is torque.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: Mike Nickerson via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  11:31 
PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Jack Wendel , Electric Vehicle 
Discussion List  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: 
Books on converting a car to ev? 
Hi Jack,

I just ran some numbers, and I think it is important to realize that you are 
essentially talking Tesla P85 or P85D levels of performance.  I wasn't sure 
what Corvette you were talking about, so I chose a relatively high end, but 
stock model.  I used the Z06 as an example.

The Z06 is about 3500 pounds stock.  As a high performance EV, it will probably 
gain about 500 pounds, so a total weight of 4000 pounds.  The Z06 has a 0-60 
time of 2.95 seconds and a quarter mile time of 10.95 seconds.

You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The Tesla 
P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.  That 650 hp is 
about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need 1200 amps from your 
batteries, through the controller, and into your motor(s).  That is serious 
power! 

That is high end Tesla or high end drag racer territory.  Systems like the Leaf 
just don't have the power you need.  The Leaf system, for example, is only 107 
hp or 79 kW.  Most batteries don't have the energy density to provide that kind 
of current and power.  The small format cells used by Tesla have much higher 
current capability than most EV cells.

Another point:  While you might not need the Tesla range, a significantly 
smaller battery might not be able to provide the same power levels.  Larger 
battery packs can provide more power than smaller packs.

Finally, you need to figure out where to put all the cells in a body that 
doesn't have much space.  Ideally, for best handling, you would like to get 
them in the floor.  That lowers the center of gravity.  It might help with 
space issues too.

Personally, I would be looking at Tesla parts, rather than Leaf parts.  They 
are a much better match with your needs.  If using Leaf motors, you might need 
3 or 4 motors.  However, the Leaf battery can't provide the necessary power.

Finally, I can't resist a comment about your business plan.  I can't really 
comment on how well the plan will work with the target market, since that is so 
far outside my experience.  I am an engineer (with a Tesla P85 and a home 
conversion), and don't have any concept of vehicles as fashion accessories.  
However, I do know that you aren't the only person with that target market in 
mind.  There aren't that many people that can drop that kind of money, so you 
have to find some way to stand out from the others trying to market to the same 
few.

Are any of your advisors investing their own money in the project?  That is one 
way to judge their confidence in their advice.

Mike
P.S.  The Tesla Model S P85D with ludicrous mode would still beat the Z06 in 
0-60 and quarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).


On January 14, 2016 1:04:31 PM MST, Jack Wendel via EV  
wrote:
>Wow Lee, thanks for all the info! It let me know that DC motors aren't
>as
>"bad" as I was led to believe.
>
>I am a professional Agile/Lean software development coach. Our motto is
>"Fail fast and learn". This means it is better to do something wrong
>and
>learn what you can from it as quickly as possible than to spend
>excessive
>time in planning for a "perfect" solution and end up with nothing but
>documents.
>
>I think of my prototype car as a "EV minibike" or "EV gocart" that
>someone
>suggested as a starter project for learning. My "EV gocart" just
>happens to
>be a lot bigger.
>
>"DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an expensive luxury sports
>car.
>You want cutting-edge style, you want flash and glamor; you want to
>make a
>statement."
>
>Exactly why my production car will be AC and have regenerative braking.
>The
>prototype will not have either of these because they provide minimal
>increase in utility (real value to me) relative to the significant
>increase
>in cost and complexity.
>
>The goals for my "oversize EV gocart" are:
>
>1) Make passes down a dragstrip and be quicker than a stock Corvette
>(as
>good or better than a "performance ICE").
>2) Be able to provide "short test rides" to people at various events
>and
>shows (let others experience EV acceleration. Charging intermittently
>is
>acceptable).
>3) Be able to drive indoors with no ventilation (not practical with an
>ICE).
>4) Be able for me to drive back and forth to work (12.6 miles each way.
>Allows me to claim "daily driver" and gain daily exposure, free
>advertising, on the road).
>
>Obviously it would be great to exceed these but if I can meet all of
>these
>I will consider 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Wow David, thanks for the well thought out response! I really do appreciate
it.

First, I am NOT looking for investors.
Second, the "At least I will have my own car!" response is to shut down the
naysayers. You can find MANY people to tell you how to build your business
that have no experience building the business you are building. When the
car was originally going to be an ICE car I had more people than I can
count say "You can't do what you are trying to do!". While I am not done
with the car, the 75% I have done has already proven them wrong.
The business of building and selling my car is not in question, the only
thing in question is whether or not it will be an EV.
If I believed I had to out Tesla Tesla, I never would have started this
project. If that were true Tesla would have put ALL other cars out of
business.
Setting the goal of outperforming Tesla out of the gate would be like
running before I ever learn to walk. Again, the prototype is simply a
"Proof of Concept". Since this is all self-financed, co$t HAS to be a major
concern. Wasting money on an AC system at this stage would be fiscally
irresponsible.

WHY am I not looking for investors?
1) They are offering less than 10% of the projected value of my business
for a majority share. I'm not selling my drear for less that 1/10th of what
it is worth.
2) If I have investors I'd just be working for someone else. No thanks,
I'll keep my day job of working for someone else.
3) All investors care about is scaling the business as quickly as possible.
That's the BEST way I know to run out of ca$h and drive the business under
before it ever gets started.
4) My business model is low volume production. High volume isn't even on
the radar. I can do what I want to do with my business out of my 30' x 30'
garage.
5) IF my business takes off I will scale up. But only when, and if, sales
greatly exceed capacity. Every additional expense added to the business to
scale will REQUIRE increasing the scale just to break even. Overhead is the
one expense I need to avoid to ensure success at low volume.
6) Scaling actually HURTS my business with my target market. For them,
Teslas have lost their appeal because they are "Too affordable and too
common". My goal is to avoid that "trap".
7) Too many business owners that have brought investors in have eventually
been run out of their own business by the investors. I'm not willing to
take that risk. So if "Staying small" is the result of keeping my business
100% my own, so be it. I prefer that to working for someone else.

BTW, contrary to common belief, Elon Musk did NOT invent the Tesla. From
what I have read he simply invested and eventually ran the real inventor
(oor at least one of them) out of the business. I did my research on
investors and their mindset. They feel it is their right to run you out of
the business because their money, not your idea or work, is the reason your
business was a success.

When I went to the business advisers, my business plan was to build an ICE
car, NOT an EV because I had ruled that out due to the added co$t and
risk.They are the ones that convinced me to go the EV route.

This is not my first car to build nor is it my first business. I have
learned from what I have done in the past and that dictates my route going
forward. The only unknown in this business is the EV part. If I can't get
sufficient help and support there, I am willing to be "Just another ICE
Supercar".

Once I build the prototype I will need publicity to attract the "right"
customer. I do not personally know any "People with more money than sense".
Well maybe some that have little of either! ;^)

My "Marketing Plan" is to build a drag racing EV that is disguised as a
"Supercar". I will put down some impressive performance numbers following
the NEDRA model. I have already talked to John Metric and priced out the EV
drivetrain long ago, I just need to "Pull the trigger" on that order. So I
will be following the path of Zombie 222 but targeting a different customer
with a different product.

If you haven't, go to the Zombie 222 site. They have expanded from the "EV
DC Motor Drag Race Musclecar" into "We will build whatever you want, AC or
DC". But their DC Drag Car got them the initial publicity they needed. Then
they expanded to set speed records as well (Texas Mile) and gained even
more exposure. Besides, my "Marketing Plan" will also be fun! 8^)

BTW, this prototype only represents my first and second car. The car that
will actually allow my business to be successful will be my third car. It
will be a COMPLETELY different design and will leverage what I learned to
date and set my "market niche". Again, something I learned AFTER I already
had too much time and money invested in this prototype. It makes more sense
to do the final 25% on my current car than to scrap it and start all over
from ground zero.

Finally, this business is simply a platform so that I can continue
designing, building and racing cars. I current own a 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Personally, I think you have an exciting idea.  I have no knowledge of 
the market but can imagine that people with big egos and big money will 
gladly pay exorbitant prices for one off items.


If you go the EV route, are you clear you have the ability to do it?  
Can you figure out a way to fit a large battery in an existing chassis 
and body?  How are you going to deal with instrumentation - fitting it 
into the dash in an elegant way, providing software and excellent 
graphics, UX, etc.?  Are you prepared to gut practically everything in 
the car's existing infrastructure - hydraulic brake pump, hot water 
cabin heater, A/C belt drive compressor, power steering belt drive - and 
replace it with electrically driving components?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Jack Wendel via EV" 
To: "EVDL Administrator" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion 
List" 

Sent: 15-Jan-16 9:11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

Wow David, thanks for the well thought out response! I really do 
appreciate

it.

First, I am NOT looking for investors.
Second, the "At least I will have my own car!" response is to shut down 
the
naysayers. You can find MANY people to tell you how to build your 
business
that have no experience building the business you are building. When 
the

car was originally going to be an ICE car I had more people than I can
count say "You can't do what you are trying to do!". While I am not 
done

with the car, the 75% I have done has already proven them wrong.
The business of building and selling my car is not in question, the 
only

thing in question is whether or not it will be an EV.
If I believed I had to out Tesla Tesla, I never would have started this
project. If that were true Tesla would have put ALL other cars out of
business.
Setting the goal of outperforming Tesla out of the gate would be like
running before I ever learn to walk. Again, the prototype is simply a
"Proof of Concept". Since this is all self-financed, co$t HAS to be a 
major

concern. Wasting money on an AC system at this stage would be fiscally
irresponsible.

WHY am I not looking for investors?
1) They are offering less than 10% of the projected value of my 
business
for a majority share. I'm not selling my drear for less that 1/10th of 
what

it is worth.
2) If I have investors I'd just be working for someone else. No thanks,
I'll keep my day job of working for someone else.
3) All investors care about is scaling the business as quickly as 
possible.
That's the BEST way I know to run out of ca$h and drive the business 
under

before it ever gets started.
4) My business model is low volume production. High volume isn't even 
on
the radar. I can do what I want to do with my business out of my 30' x 
30'

garage.
5) IF my business takes off I will scale up. But only when, and if, 
sales
greatly exceed capacity. Every additional expense added to the business 
to
scale will REQUIRE increasing the scale just to break even. Overhead is 
the

one expense I need to avoid to ensure success at low volume.
6) Scaling actually HURTS my business with my target market. For them,
Teslas have lost their appeal because they are "Too affordable and too
common". My goal is to avoid that "trap".
7) Too many business owners that have brought investors in have 
eventually

been run out of their own business by the investors. I'm not willing to
take that risk. So if "Staying small" is the result of keeping my 
business

100% my own, so be it. I prefer that to working for someone else.

BTW, contrary to common belief, Elon Musk did NOT invent the Tesla. 
From
what I have read he simply invested and eventually ran the real 
inventor

(oor at least one of them) out of the business. I did my research on
investors and their mindset. They feel it is their right to run you out 
of
the business because their money, not your idea or work, is the reason 
your

business was a success.

When I went to the business advisers, my business plan was to build an 
ICE

car, NOT an EV because I had ruled that out due to the added co$t and
risk.They are the ones that convinced me to go the EV route.

This is not my first car to build nor is it my first business. I have
learned from what I have done in the past and that dictates my route 
going
forward. The only unknown in this business is the EV part. If I can't 
get

sufficient help and support there, I am willing to be "Just another ICE
Supercar".

Once I build the prototype I will need publicity to attract the "right"
customer. I do not personally know any "People with more money than 
sense".

Well maybe some that have little of either! ;^)

My "Marketing Plan" is to build a drag racing EV that is disguised as a
"Supercar". I will put down some impressive performance numbers 
following
the NEDRA model. I have already talked to John Metric and priced out 
the EV
drivetrain long ago, I just need to "Pull the trigger" 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Thanks for the words of encouragement Peri!

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 11:28 AM, Peri Hartman  wrote:

> Personally, I think you have an exciting idea.  I have no knowledge of the
> market but can imagine that people with big egos and big money will gladly
> pay exorbitant prices for one off items.
>

I NEVER would have imagined marketing to those people had I not met those
advisers.

>
> If you go the EV route, are you clear you have the ability to do it?


I have a artistic, mechanic, mechanical engineering, computer programming,
racing and machinist background and an attitude that "If someone has done
it before I can do it too!"


> Can you figure out a way to fit a large battery in an existing chassis and
> body?


As has been mentioned, it will have to be cut up into several smaller
battery packs and distributed throughout the vehicle. One of the big EV
conversion companies has done it before with this car model.


> How are you going to deal with instrumentation - fitting it into the dash
> in an elegant way, providing software and excellent graphics, UX, etc.?


All that is for a later version. Manufacturers roll out "concept cars" with
no engines and no interiors all the time. No reason I can't do the same. I
view the prototype as simply "One stage above vaporware". The only
requirement is that it be "An EV 'supercar'". In reality, the low bar is "A
car with an attractive body style that moves on its own using an electric
drivetrain." Anything past that simply delays initial progress. I will
learn a lot from simply having an EV that moves on its own power, even if
it has a minimalistic interior and minimal instrumentation. I just need a
seat, steering wheel, pedals, enough crude instrumentation to ensure I'm
not damaging anything and VERY dark tinted windows! Again, the prototype
goal is simply "an oversized gocart". I've never seen a gocart with power
anything or even an instrument panel.


> Are you prepared to gut practically everything in the car's existing
> infrastructure - hydraulic brake pump, hot water cabin heater, A/C belt
> drive compressor, power steering belt drive - and replace it with
> electrically driving components?
>

THAT is why I was wondering about buying a used Leaf. My assumption is that
it would come with all that stuff and I could simply "repurpose it" for my
car.  So a big part of my question was "Is there WAY more than $10k in
parts and time savings to be worth buying a Leaf?" Then the discussion got
sidetracked... That happens on pretty much every forum. Some people have
their own agendas or soap boxes and turn every response into answering the
question they want to answer instead of what was asked. That is why I have
simply been lurking on this forum for so long and rarely asking questions.
I simply don't have time for distractions with working a full time job  and
doing this car project on the side. I'm already WAY behind schedule.

I was HOPING some other "makers" at Makerspace would be interested in my
project and be willing to help. But they have already built several
electric bicycles and an electric gocart so they would rather build a
hovercraft than an EV. Not long ago they blew up the controller on the
gocart and I just saw someone haul it off about a week or two ago. No clue
if they had plans for it or were just clearing it out since space is a
valuable commodity there. Shame I wasn't a member (I didn't even  know they
existed) when they were doing that project. I could have learned a lot.

I actually talked to an EV conversion company in Austin when I started the
project. Their price put me off to the whole idea and, when I asked around
about the, I was told they do "old technology". Like others have said, my
goal was to use the latest and greatest that could actually be done is I
was going to pay to have someone else do it.

BTW, the other reason for going the "quick and dirty" DC route is that
seeing an EV move on its own MIGHT inspire makers to join in on the
project. They have apparently seen EV builds attempted before and all of
them were abandoned before anything was ever done. I get the impression
that most were underfunded. People simply don't realize how much time and
money an EV takes.

I don't want people feeling that I am dismissing their suggestions and
advice... I'm not. But the reality is that if the prototype has to "out
Tesla a Tesla", I am looking at 10 years of R before I can even show a
prototype. And, in 10 years the existing Tesla will pale in comparison to
what is available. I  will learn what to do and. just as importantly, what
NOT to do, faster with a crude prototype that with all the planning in the
world. I did pretty much everything wrong I could when I built the
prototype body. But I never would have learned that had I not said to
myself "Screw it... just build SOMETHING!"
-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 15 Jan 2016 at 12:52, Jack Wendel via EV wrote:

>  I just need a seat, steering wheel, pedals, enough crude
> instrumentation to ensure I'm not damaging anything and VERY dark
> tinted windows! 

Well, it worked for GM with the Volt. If memory serves, they showed early 
prototypes with what amounted to golf car motors and controllers.  They (the 
cars, I mean) could barely move under electric power.  

Would the trade publication reporters who gave them a pass for this have 
done the same for anyone but GM?  Ehh, I'll have to get back to you on that.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Here is what I got from John Metric. His initial comment is with respect to
the fact that I saw him interviewed on a TV show. A 12 second 1/4 mile time
 would be just fine. A 10 second time would be AWESOME. The problem is that
it would take slicks to hitthat 10 second time and I fear driveline carnage
would ensue due to the excessive torque of the two electric motors.

BTW, I originally asked him about two Warp 11s. He said they were overkill
for my project. They just added cost with no real payback.

With respect to batteries, he doesn't provide much detail. But my intial
thought was that "If they can fit batteries in a little Miata, surely I can
fit them in a Corvette!"

Yes, a Corvette is really heavy body to start with. I kind of thought he
would mention that he was asking about my Miata Conversion when I told him
how much it would take to go fast and how much to set records in drag
racing as I represent the National Electric Drag Racing Association. So far
since that show, I have gotten calls about converting a F250 pickup,. a
hummer, and a rock climber, now a corvette No miatas...

HOWEVER, I like a challenge...

First are we on the same page? You want to go fast at the dragstrip right?
or at the Indy 500? Two completely different things.
You want to be the fastest Corvette to highway speed but have a top speed
of 100mph, thats pretty easy.
You want to go 200mph land speed racing, very much more difficult request.

Can I ask you to give me a call. We can say 1000 things much faster over
the phone than a short email and this is a complicated subject.

Base parts only numbers for the cheapest build for a corvette at about
3500lbs final weight (which is about 1000lbs heavier than a miata
Conversion):
Two warp9 motors $4000
One Zilla Controller $5000
One drag racing battery pack $7,000

That should get you to the 12's like a real corvette.

Want to spend about another $5000 on batteries you could be in the 10's.

The real question is how much range you want, cause that's where the
project really balloons. With my drag racing hat on and the show about EV
Drag Racing, most people are disappointed in the range of drag racing pack.
10-20miles.  Of course, the one in my Miata makes 1000 battery horsepower
and has about a 40 mile range, but at a price.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Mike sent:

I just ran some numbers, and I think it is important to realize that you
> are essentially talking Tesla P85 or P85D levels of performance.


No. I'm not.


> I wasn't sure what Corvette you were talking about, so I chose a
> relatively high end, but stock model.  I used the Z06 as an example.
>

Nope, just a plain ol $53,000 Corvette.


> The Z06 is about 3500 pounds stock.


Get rid of that heavy supercharger and the weight gets down to a more
reasonable 3300 lbs

As a high performance EV, it will probably gain about 500 pounds, so a
> total weight of 4000 pounds.  The Z06 has a 0-60 time of 2.95 seconds and a
> quarter mile time of 10.95 seconds.
>

Again, I'm not competing with a Z06.  Does your wife need 650 hp? I would
venture to guess that most wives would be just fine with the Corvette's
stock 400 hp.


> You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The
> Tesla P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.


4600 lbs!?! That Tesla is a heavyweight pig! ;^)


> That 650 hp is about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need
> 1200 amps from your batteries, through the controller, and into your
> motor(s).  That is serious power!
>

While we differ on exactlu how much power is needed, we both can agree that
this won't be a low power endeavor.


> That is high end Tesla or high end drag racer territory.  Systems like the
> Leaf just don't have the power you need.


I thought I mentioned that initially. Maybe I just thought it and didn't
type it.


> The Leaf system, for example, is only 107 hp or 79 kW.  Most batteries
> don't have the energy density to provide that kind of current and power.
> The small format cells used by Tesla have much higher current capability
> than most EV cells.
>

This is the kinda info I need. I don't know squat about EVs and would
rather not spend the time learning right now. If someone handed me a
"cookbook" on how to do what i want I'd grab it and  be on my merry way.


> Another point:  While you might not need the Tesla range, a significantly
> smaller battery might not be able to provide the same power levels.  Larger
> battery packs can provide more power than smaller packs.
>

Hence the $7k initial battery pack and $5k upgrade John Metric described to
me. It's EASILY worth an additional $5k if it means the difference between
good performance and great performance. But what I don't want is to
overpower the stock Corvette drivetrain and have to keep replacing parts. I
have done that in the past with my race cars and I now have more important
problem to solve than creating unneeded  new ones.


> Finally, you need to figure out where to put all the cells in a body that
> doesn't have much space.


Like I just wrote, if they can fit ;em in a Miata surely I can fit em in a
MUCH larger Corvette.


> Ideally, for best handling, you would like to get them in the floor.  That
> lowers the center of gravity.  It might help with space issues too.
>

Agreed.


> Personally, I would be looking at Tesla parts, rather than Leaf parts.
> They are a much better match with your needs.  If using Leaf motors, you
> might need 3 or 4 motors.  However, the Leaf battery can't provide the
> necessary power.
>

Not sure about the form factor of Tesla stuff. They use two motors
laterally placed. I need two motors placed lineally. I picked the C5
Corvette as a donor car to get the performance suspension, ride and drive
they come with from the factory.


> Finally, I can't resist a comment about your business plan.  I can't
> really comment on how well the plan will work with the target market, since
> that is so far outside my experience.  I am an engineer (with a Tesla P85
> and a home conversion), and don't have any concept of vehicles as fashion
> accessories.  However, I do know that you aren't the only person with that
> target market in mind.  There aren't that many people that can drop that
> kind of money, so you have to find some way to stand out from the others
> trying to market to the same few.
>

Again, uniqueness is what I am selling along with an attractive body
style.  If my target market neighbor buys one of those other cars, that
increases the chance they will select mine. Who wants a car just like your
neighbor?!?


> Are any of your advisors investing their own money in the project?  That
> is one way to judge their confidence in their advice.
>

Nope. I was a bit disappointed in that as well. But they see over a dozen
potential business owners every week or so. And since 90% of all businesses
fail, they are not in the "low odds gambling" business. And someone
incompetent in running a business could easily fail using the best business
plan in the world.


> Mike
> P.S.  The Tesla Model S P85D with ludicrous mode would still beat the Z06
> in 0-60 and quarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).


Not from the numbers I have seen. But the bottom line is "Who cares?" I
know my target market couldn't care less. Most 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Paul Dove via EV]

I can try to explain the significance.

I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy density. They 
can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating and capacity loss... C 
being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can put out 20 amps continuous and 
up to 8 C without significant heating (around 50 degrees Celsius). 

The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user can tailor 
a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight, capacity and cost.

John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity since 
he's drag racing.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Paul replied: 
> 
>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
>> copters.
> 
> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
> anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Thanks Paul. I had seen those C references on this list in the past but had no 
clue what the significance was. 

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:08 PM, Paul Dove  wrote:
> 
> I can try to explain the significance.
> 
> I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy density. They 
> can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating and capacity loss... 
> C being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can put out 20 amps continuous 
> and up to 8 C without significant heating (around 50 degrees Celsius). 
> 
> The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user can 
> tailor a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight, capacity 
> and cost.
> 
> John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity since 
> he's drag racing.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul replied: 
>> 
>>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
>>> copters.
>> 
>> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
>> anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Paul replied: 

> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad 
> copters. 

Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It doesn't mean 
anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

People who build racing packs, such as Lightning Motorcycle,
use brands not really available to "hobbyists/converters"
such as Enerdel.
Enerdel expects that their cells (in pairs, each on one side) are
sitting against a metal sheet that is heatsink for the cells, this is
brought out to the side and can be pressed against a surface that
conducts the heat away.

I asked Derek Barger from High Tech Systems and he did not want to
reveal
which pouch cells he is using and I did not want to press him, I was
happy enough that he would entertain me on my visit to his place and
discuss EVs and battery packs in general and his racing designs
specifically. He noted that he could reach extreme high power and energy
density because he did not need to contain the pouches, they never
swelled and never got hot, he only needed to stabilize them against the
vibration and G forces of racing.
He did include a BMS with his packs though.

Then there is the famous A123 20Ah pouch cell that sustains 20C, in
other words that small cell can dish out 400A and almost melt its own
tabs off.
I do believe that it needed containment (pressure from the side) to
avoid swelling up. 
Just some more datapoints.

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of via EV
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 8:21 PM
To: Paul Dove
Cc: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

Thanks Paul. I had seen those C references on this list in the past but
had no clue what the significance was. 

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 10:08 PM, Paul Dove  wrote:
> 
> I can try to explain the significance.
> 
> I believe he uses Kokam LiPo cells. The have a very high energy
density. They can operate continuously at 10 C but will cause heating
and capacity loss... C being the capacity of the cell so a 2Ah cell can
put out 20 amps continuous and up to 8 C without significant heating
(around 50 degrees Celsius). 
> 
> The KOK 340 HSC can be operated at 20 C. The effect is that the user
can tailor a pack to do what is needed without excessive size, weight,
capacity and cost.
> 
> John has a very small powerful pack but without having a high capacity
since he's drag racing.
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
>> On Jan 15, 2016, at 8:19 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul replied: 
>> 
>>> John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in
quad copters.
>> 
>> Can you enlighten the ignorant on the significance of that? It
doesn't mean anything hing to me. 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Paul Dove via EV]

John metric uses lithium polymer batteries like the ones used in quad copters. 

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 15, 2016, at 3:28 PM, Jack Wendel via EV  wrote:
> 
> Here is what I got from John Metric. His initial comment is with respect to
> the fact that I saw him interviewed on a TV show. A 12 second 1/4 mile time
> would be just fine. A 10 second time would be AWESOME. The problem is that
> it would take slicks to hitthat 10 second time and I fear driveline carnage
> would ensue due to the excessive torque of the two electric motors.
> 
> BTW, I originally asked him about two Warp 11s. He said they were overkill
> for my project. They just added cost with no real payback.
> 
> With respect to batteries, he doesn't provide much detail. But my intial
> thought was that "If they can fit batteries in a little Miata, surely I can
> fit them in a Corvette!"
> 
> Yes, a Corvette is really heavy body to start with. I kind of thought he
> would mention that he was asking about my Miata Conversion when I told him
> how much it would take to go fast and how much to set records in drag
> racing as I represent the National Electric Drag Racing Association. So far
> since that show, I have gotten calls about converting a F250 pickup,. a
> hummer, and a rock climber, now a corvette No miatas...
> 
> HOWEVER, I like a challenge...
> 
> First are we on the same page? You want to go fast at the dragstrip right?
> or at the Indy 500? Two completely different things.
> You want to be the fastest Corvette to highway speed but have a top speed
> of 100mph, thats pretty easy.
> You want to go 200mph land speed racing, very much more difficult request.
> 
> Can I ask you to give me a call. We can say 1000 things much faster over
> the phone than a short email and this is a complicated subject.
> 
> Base parts only numbers for the cheapest build for a corvette at about
> 3500lbs final weight (which is about 1000lbs heavier than a miata
> Conversion):
> Two warp9 motors $4000
> One Zilla Controller $5000
> One drag racing battery pack $7,000
> 
> That should get you to the 12's like a real corvette.
> 
> Want to spend about another $5000 on batteries you could be in the 10's.
> 
> The real question is how much range you want, cause that's where the
> project really balloons. With my drag racing hat on and the show about EV
> Drag Racing, most people are disappointed in the range of drag racing pack.
> 10-20miles.  Of course, the one in my Miata makes 1000 battery horsepower
> and has about a 40 mile range, but at a price.
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Jack, 

A few thoughts here.

First, let me say that I'm not as negative on this idea as some here seem to 
be.  But I suggest that you try not to get too miffed at the naysayers.  
There's wisdom in what they say.  Hop in and grab what helps you, and leave 
the rest.

Second, I think your original question about using a Leaf drive has been 
pretty well answered.  A lot of the rest of this thread has dealt more with 
your business plan, which you weren't really asking about.

However, that's what I'm concerned with.

It's not entirely clear to me what you really want to do with this project.  
You may have to (I hope patiently) correct my impressions.  

It sounds like first and foremost you want to build a fast, exciting EV 
that's to your own liking.  Also, and possibly secondarily, you want to show 
it to potential investors and/or buyers in hopes of developing iterest in it 
as a limited-edition product targeted at (forgive me) people who have more 
money than sense.  ;-)

Your plan, on the surface, sounds great.  If the business idea flops, hey, 
you have the EV you always wanted!  However, I see a potential problem 
unrelated to things like whether you use an AC or DC drive.

Understand that I speak here not as a financial expert or business owner, 
but rather as a longtime EV enthusiast.  (I've been following EVs in one way 
or another since the mid-1960s.)  

Maybe because for a long time EVs were way out of the mainstream, and 
investors mostly didn't know much about them, the EV business has attracted 
a dismaying number of questionable people.

Probably the type we've seen most often here on this list is the "free 
energy" promoter.  Some of these guys sincerely think they've invented 
perpetual motion, when they're actually measuring something that isn't 
there.  Others are outright criminals.  Either way, they usually end up 
being prosecuted for fraud.

These are the folks who are going to demonstrate a revolutionary EV that 
runs forever without ever being plugged in - next week, next month, or next 
year.  They just need your investment to finish it, and then they'll have 
their highly promoted demonstration at Indy Speedway or wherever.  The 
automotive world will beat a path to their door.  They'll sell the design to 
GM, or the military, or some shadowy figure from Russia, or some oil company 
oligarch who wants to lock it up forever.  Whatever.  But for sure, you'll 
get your 10% cut of the immense profits!

Yeah, right.

Believe it or not, these people actually manage to get investors.

There are also the truly sincere EV lovers who are out to save the world 
with EVs.  You don't see these guys so much any more, now that mainstream 
automakers have actually (against all odds) started offering production EVs. 
However, they used to pop up regularly.  As has been mentioned, most wanted 
to convert ICEVs. A few wanted to build purpose-built EV. 

These guys always failed.  The ones with carefully designed business plans, 
those with large personal fortunes, and those who diversified their 
businesses, all lasted longer.  Some are still in business today.  

But eventually, they all failed at building EVs for sale.  They went  
bankrupt and saw their inventory auctioned off to pay the bills.  Or they 
padlocked the workshop and left the computer-rendered prototypes up on the 
website, hoping against hope that someday, some automaker would license the 
design, or a good-hearted fairy godmother would sprinkle them with fiscal 
fairy dust so they could go back to work.  Or they quietly sold most of the 
parts and prototypes, maybe keeping a favorite, and carried on with some 
other kind of business (EV related or not).

Either type of EV entrepreneur above is a money sink for investors.

No matter how sincere you are about this project, you may be dipping water 
from the well these folks have gradually poisoned over the years.  To a 
savvy investor (I'm assuming here that you ARE looking for investors), you 
somehow have to avoid giving the impression that you'd actually be just fine 
if this venture failed and you got to keep your dream EV.  You may have 
already kind of blown that, because that's the impression I've gotten from 
reading your posts here. 

Again, speaking only for myself, if I were an investor, I'd want to see 
evidence that you're really committed to making this a business - something 
other than saying "I'm committed to making this a business."  (GM said that 
too about the EV1, and you see where that went.)

I don't think that you can get away with a prototype that isn't close to 
what your production version will be.  Short range won't fly, for example.  
You'll have to be able to demonstrate that your stated goals are attainable. 
You'll have to be able to say, "It'll be this - or better."

You'll also need to make constant, documentable progress toward actually 
building the cars and selling them.  In my (admittedly naïve) view, this 
would mean moving ahead ASAP with 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Meeting with that team of 6 business advisers was the single best thing I
could do for my business. They made me realize that building a vehicle for
what I THOUGHT was my target customer was  the best way to fail as a
business. They made me realize that I thought was important, and what this
list thinks is important, makes the chance of success very small.

One of the advisers, that is also a "car guy" said "Describe to me your
target customer". I proceeded to describe someone like me, him and many on
this list. He simply said "Wrong. Your target customer should be someone
like my wife. She wants an attractive car that she can take to social
events and be able to say "I have en electric sports car and you don't'".

My target customer can easily go out and buy an exotic in the $375,000+
price range and pay cash for it. But so can all of their neighbors and
people in their social circle. A Tesla Model S has little appeal to them
because, in their circles, EVERYONE has one.

I BIG part of their value system is to have something no one else has and
that they likely can't get. One of thewir highest priorities, if not THE
highest priority, is to NEVER pull up to a traffic light or social event
and see another car like theirs. Think of this car like an evening gown...
they would be HORRIFIED is another woman showed up in the same dress!

I am not selling a car, I am selling a status symbol.

So all this about efficiency, weight and aerodynamics don't mean squat to
them. If I need range, slap in more batteries until I get the target range.
That weight can be reduced as battery technology advances.

Like I said, i NEVER would have put value on these things before I met with
that team of advisers.

The final pieces of advice "Take your initial concept and price as an ICE
car, add the cost of conversion, DOUBLE IT to compensate for the hassle and
risk, add that you your previous price target (shown in my business plan I
had already provided), and you will sell cars as fast as you can make
them." The other advice was to not even target a US customer. "Find a
wealthy client in a foreign country and build a car for them".
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Bill wrote:

If you are going to sell them after you build one of your own, it is going
> to be very difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and
> value/dollar.
>

The assumption that I plan to compete with Tesla out of the gate is simply
crazy. Tesla has a HUGE head start over me. If it were possible for me to
compete either of the following would have to be true:

1) Tesla engineers are all idiots.
2) I am smarter than all the Tesla engineers combined.
3) Tesla hasn't learned a thing in all the years they have been in
development and production.

Since we can safely assume 1 and 3 are not true, thanks for the compliment
Bill! ;^)

You want a convertible, cut the top off of a Tesla. Do it very nicely and
> neatly of course, but that would be your best option. Sell that customized
> model of a Tesla, using the same business model as van conversions, stretch
> limos, and bulletproof cars use.
>

That would be great if I wanted to be in the business of converting  cars.
I don't. Someone else can do that if they want to.


> One thing that you are not taking into account is that all OEM EVs are
> _very_ aerodynamic. (No exceptions.) This is directly related to range, the
> cost of the battery pack, the weight of the battery pack, and the cost of
> the car. A car with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a car with a
> heavy (and expensive) battery pack to make up for a bad Cd will take a
> performance hit because of the extra weight, and won't sell either.
>

Your assumptions are based on your perspective of value. Obviously nothing
wrong with that and it's probably quite similar  to others on this list. No
offense, but no one on this list would be a target customer of mine exactly
for that reason. My target customers have a COMPLETELY different
perspective of value.


> ICE cars really don't have to be aerodynamic to sell well. Poor aero
> doesn't impact the purchase price, or the weight of the vehicle, and
> doesn't alter the performance appreciably. All that really changes is the
> EPA estimated mileage. The customer doesn't care mostly because he doesn't
> think that far ahead.
>

Same with my target audience. All they care about is that the car is an
"EV" and that they can  CLAIM to care about the environment.


> Thus, if you want a "classic" or "sporty" or some other styling, you can't
> sacrifice aerodynamic drag to achieve it. You must carefully style the car
> to achieve the desired look, while being very very aerodynamic. Not easy to
> do, but you must to build an EV that will actually sell. To sell, it must
> have range and performance and be competitive in cost. That, in turn,
> requires that it have a low Cd. Thus, a Mustang or a Corvette won't work.
> Awful Cd.


Again, different value system. My range will come from better battery
technology. It's not there yet (nowhere close) but I want to have my cars
built and tested before that happens. I cannot wait for that to happen
before I pull the trigger on this project.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Gail Lucas via EV]

Wow! Do you have brand names and links to pictures of these EVs?


On 1/14/2016 2:50 PM, Jack Wendel via EV wrote:

But there currently are other EVs out there that sell for up to 5 times
more than a Tesla.

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Lev sent:


> You might want to check this guy out:
>
> http://www.zombie222.com/home.html


Already have, years ago. I happened to be living in Austin, Texas at the
time he was building it. At the time they "built it an no one came".  Why
would someone pay $250,ooo (his selling price) for what looks like, at
best, a nice $75,000 custom Mustang? His target market is obviously not the
wife of someone with lots of money that wants to show off her electric
sports car.

Seriously... you are not going to convince someone that wants a musclecar
that they really want a quiet EV one, no matter how quick it is. What's the
value proposition and who holds those values high? This, at best,
represents an EV conversion and we already established that's a good way to
go broke. Again, you need to start a business with a clear vision of your
target customer. Who was he aiming at?!? I have seberal 60s Camaros I couod
convert to EV if I thought there was a market for them. I don't think there
is.


> This is a guy doing ICE (not sure if he’s still doing it)
>
> http://www.reenmachine.com
>
> I’m a little biased towards Mustangs, but something tells me this is a
> well-worn path ICE, and electric - maybe see how the business and order
> backlog of the Zombie is looking, I’d love to know myself…
>

Not sure you could get a good answer on the Zombie project. It wouldn't be
in his best interest to say "Yep, I can build 'em but can't sell 'em!"
Heck, why don't you contact him and see what you can find out. Maybe things
have improved for them in the last few years. Like you,I'd love to know.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

 I never really compared whether induction motors generated more heat then a 
series wound DC motor. It's just that modern induction motors come with liquid 
cooling that I'm not sure you can get with a series round DC motor.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 1/14/2016  
12:19 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
On 14 Jan 2016 at 6:34, dovepa via EV wrote:

> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway
> speed for extended periods of time. 

Can you explain what would cause this?  Not being an engineer, I don't 
understand why a series motor producing a given amount of power would 
produce more heat than a shunt, sepex, or induction motor.  

Is it that the efficiency is lower?

The Prestolite and ADC series motors had/have built in fans, but a fair 
number of builders add more cooling.  Typically it's a nice beefy bilge 
blower firing into a collar attached to the brush access ports.  That's 
another source of noise.  :-(

Come to that, though, Solectria's 1990s-era induction motors had big fins on 
the outside, and they had to have a big axial fan forcing air over those 
fins.  Without the fan, they'd overheat on the highway.  Those were 
supposedly pretty efficient motors, too, and not really all that powerful.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Bill,

You are obviously a Tesla fanboy and nothing I write will dissuade you.
That's fine. You must obviously own a Tesla as well.

But there currently are other EVs out there that sell for up to 5 times
more than a Tesla. I am following their business model because they have
already proven that there is room for competition. Maybe you put a $500,000
EV in direct competition with a Tesla. but I don't. One thing Tesla will
never provide that I can is exclusivity. You obviously put zero value in
that so you simply won't be one of my customers or that of any of the other
EVs. . If Tesla made a 2-door convertible at a reasonable cost I would
consider buying one. I don't see that happening any time  soon.

I guess everyone besides Tesla should give up on EVs because Tesla has
already built the ultimate EV. I thought one of their goals was to promote
EVs. Wait... Tesla is coming out with different vehicles, aren't they.
Hmmm, there MUST be room out there for something besides the :"perfect"
Model S.

The fact that other EVs exist and are selling simply proves you wrong.

Finally, if you are trying to talk me into building an ICE instead of an
 EV you're doing a GREAT job of it! Shame, I was HOPING to get information
and support from an EV list.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Bill replied:


> As I said before, you have made a case that there may be a market for a
> high-performance convertible EV. Why build the whole car when you can
> modify/customize an existing car and get exactly what you believe there is
> a market for?


Great idea Bill. What 2-door sports car do I start with? ;^) A hacked up
4-door Tesla is nowhere close to "exactly what you believe there is a
market for". If someone wants a 4-door EV let em just buy a Tesla and keep
me out of what I think is a money losing proposition.

BTW, I AM starting with an existing car and modifying it. It at least has
the right number of doors and already comes as a convertible.


> Buy Tesla, chop off the top, and install a very nice custom convertible
> (or removable hard top, or a T-top.) See how much you can sell it for to
> test the market.
>

There are a few reasons why I do not want to  go that route:

1) It's a *4-door*. I want a sports car and nowhere in my definition of a
"sports car" does "4-door" fit.
2) The cost of entry is too high. I would spend my entire budget and end up
with a useless (to me) 4-door convertible.
3) It's a* 4-door*.
4) I can't say "I designed it and built it". At best I get to say "I hacked
up a Tesla."
5) It's still a *4-door*.
6) I don't think the market for a 4-door convertible is a good measure of
the market for a convertible sports car.
7) It's still a *4-door*.
8) I already feel bad enough when I see a nice C5  driving down the road
and I say "I actually hacked up one of those to do my project!" Think how
bad I'd feel having hacked up a Tesla.
9) It's still a *4-door*.
10) I'd MUCH rather own my car as an ICE than a hacked up Tesla *4-door*
convertible.
11) I laugh at the idiots that in the past have built *4-door*
convertibles. I have no desire to be the butt of my own jokes. ;^)
12) You could be right and there isn't a market for my car. I'd rather have
my car as a limited range EV than a *4-door* convertible.
13) I'm not a fan of the Tesla body style (even if it DIDN'T have *4-doors*).
I'd have to rebody the thing to get what I want.

Bill, I'm not saying your approach wouldn't work, but I can't see investing
all that money and time building something I don't want and I don't think
there would be a market for it. Then I'd be stuck with the stupid thing.

Remember, I started my discussion asking if a $10k Leaf would be a good
starting point. The intent there was to keep my cost of entry as low as
possible for my prototype. I could buy a LOT of used Leafs for the cost of
a Tesla! Luckily someone mentioned the form factor of a Leaf battery pack
sucks. I didn't know that. If it won't fit between the rails of a truck
frame it sure won't fit inside the confines of a sports car.

Seriously Bill, I'm just looking for advice and help. But telling me to
scrap my project and build what you think I should build doesn't help.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I am a Tesla fan, but I can't afford one so I own a Leaf.

I have built a few notable EVs over the years. I 
think that if my wife and I had not built our 
latest EV, we would have bought a new Tesla with 
(some) of the money we spent, but what fun would that be?


I am not aware of any $500,000 EVs that actually 
exist and are actually on the market. (Plenty of 
"vaporware" big bucks high-performance EVs, but 
no real ones that I am aware of.) Please provide some links.


As I said before, you have made a case that there 
may be a market for a high-performance 
convertible EV. Why build the whole car when you 
can modify/customize an existing car and get 
exactly what you believe there is a market for? 
Buy Tesla, chop off the top, and install a very 
nice custom convertible (or removable hard top, 
or a T-top.) See how much you can sell it for to test the market.


The reason that Tesla has not marketed a 
convertible is that they are not nearly as safe 
as a sedan. They also are considerably more noisy 
than sedans, and they often leak in the rain. I 
wholeheartedly agree, however, that some folks 
prefer a convertible, and there is likely a 
market. (I converted a modestly high-performance 
convertible myself, actually.)


What makes the most sense (at least to begin 
with) is to chop the top off a Tesla and test the market.


Bill D.

At 03:50 PM 1/14/2016, Jack Wendel wrote:

Bill,Â

You are obviously a Tesla fanboy and nothing I 
write will dissuade you. That's fine. You must obviously own a Tesla as well.Â


But there currently are other EVs out there that 
sell for up to 5 times more than a Tesla. I am 
following their business model because they have 
already proven that there is room for 
competition. Maybe you put a $500,000 EV in 
direct competition with a Tesla. but I don't. 
One thing Tesla will never provide that I can is 
exclusivity. You obviously put zero value in 
that so you simply won't be one of my customers 
or that of any of the other EVs. . If Tesla made 
a 2-door convertible at a reasonable cost I 
would consider buying one. I don't see that happening any time  soon.Â


I guess everyone besides Tesla should give up on 
EVs because Tesla has already built the ultimate 
EV. I thought one of their goals was to promote 
EVs. Wait... Tesla is coming out with different 
vehicles, aren't they. Hmmm, there MUST be room 
out there for something besides the :"perfect" Model S.Â


The fact that other EVs exist and are selling simply proves you wrong.Â

Finally, if you are trying to talk me into 
building an ICE instead of an  EV you're doing 
a GREAT job of it! Shame, I was HOPING to get 
information and support from an EV list.Â


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Lev Lvovsky via EV]

Hey Jack,

You might want to check this guy out:

http://www.zombie222.com/home.html

This is a guy doing ICE (not sure if he’s still doing it)

http://www.reenmachine.com

I’m a little biased towards Mustangs, but something tells me this is a 
well-worn path ICE, and electric - maybe see how the business and order backlog 
of the Zombie is looking, I’d love to know myself…

good luck,
-lev

> On Jan 14, 2016, at 2:50 PM, Jack Wendel via EV  wrote:
> 
> Bill,
> 
> You are obviously a Tesla fanboy and nothing I write will dissuade you.
> That's fine. You must obviously own a Tesla as well.
> 
> But there currently are other EVs out there that sell for up to 5 times
> more than a Tesla. I am following their business model because they have
> already proven that there is room for competition. Maybe you put a $500,000
> EV in direct competition with a Tesla. but I don't. One thing Tesla will
> never provide that I can is exclusivity. You obviously put zero value in
> that so you simply won't be one of my customers or that of any of the other
> EVs. . If Tesla made a 2-door convertible at a reasonable cost I would
> consider buying one. I don't see that happening any time  soon.
> 
> I guess everyone besides Tesla should give up on EVs because Tesla has
> already built the ultimate EV. I thought one of their goals was to promote
> EVs. Wait... Tesla is coming out with different vehicles, aren't they.
> Hmmm, there MUST be room out there for something besides the :"perfect"
> Model S.
> 
> The fact that other EVs exist and are selling simply proves you wrong.
> 
> Finally, if you are trying to talk me into building an ICE instead of an
> EV you're doing a GREAT job of it! Shame, I was HOPING to get information
> and support from an EV list.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

Hi Jack,

I just ran some numbers, and I think it is important to realize that you are 
essentially talking Tesla P85 or P85D levels of performance.  I wasn't sure 
what Corvette you were talking about, so I chose a relatively high end, but 
stock model.  I used the Z06 as an example.

The Z06 is about 3500 pounds stock.  As a high performance EV, it will probably 
gain about 500 pounds, so a total weight of 4000 pounds.  The Z06 has a 0-60 
time of 2.95 seconds and a quarter mile time of 10.95 seconds.

You will need power similar to the 650 hp of the stock Corvette.  The Tesla 
P85D has over 700 hp for 4600 pounds, so in the ball park.  That 650 hp is 
about 485 kW.  With a battery voltage of 400V, you need 1200 amps from your 
batteries, through the controller, and into your motor(s).  That is serious 
power! 

That is high end Tesla or high end drag racer territory.  Systems like the Leaf 
just don't have the power you need.  The Leaf system, for example, is only 107 
hp or 79 kW.  Most batteries don't have the energy density to provide that kind 
of current and power.  The small format cells used by Tesla have much higher 
current capability than most EV cells.

Another point:  While you might not need the Tesla range, a significantly 
smaller battery might not be able to provide the same power levels.  Larger 
battery packs can provide more power than smaller packs.

Finally, you need to figure out where to put all the cells in a body that 
doesn't have much space.  Ideally, for best handling, you would like to get 
them in the floor.  That lowers the center of gravity.  It might help with 
space issues too.

Personally, I would be looking at Tesla parts, rather than Leaf parts.  They 
are a much better match with your needs.  If using Leaf motors, you might need 
3 or 4 motors.  However, the Leaf battery can't provide the necessary power.

Finally, I can't resist a comment about your business plan.  I can't really 
comment on how well the plan will work with the target market, since that is so 
far outside my experience.  I am an engineer (with a Tesla P85 and a home 
conversion), and don't have any concept of vehicles as fashion accessories.  
However, I do know that you aren't the only person with that target market in 
mind.  There aren't that many people that can drop that kind of money, so you 
have to find some way to stand out from the others trying to market to the same 
few.

Are any of your advisors investing their own money in the project?  That is one 
way to judge their confidence in their advice.

Mike
P.S.  The Tesla Model S P85D with ludicrous mode would still beat the Z06 in 
0-60 and quarter mile times.  Sorry, I couldn't resist 8>).


On January 14, 2016 1:04:31 PM MST, Jack Wendel via EV  
wrote:
>Wow Lee, thanks for all the info! It let me know that DC motors aren't
>as
>"bad" as I was led to believe.
>
>I am a professional Agile/Lean software development coach. Our motto is
>"Fail fast and learn". This means it is better to do something wrong
>and
>learn what you can from it as quickly as possible than to spend
>excessive
>time in planning for a "perfect" solution and end up with nothing but
>documents.
>
>I think of my prototype car as a "EV minibike" or "EV gocart" that
>someone
>suggested as a starter project for learning. My "EV gocart" just
>happens to
>be a lot bigger.
>
>"DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an expensive luxury sports
>car.
>You want cutting-edge style, you want flash and glamor; you want to
>make a
>statement."
>
>Exactly why my production car will be AC and have regenerative braking.
>The
>prototype will not have either of these because they provide minimal
>increase in utility (real value to me) relative to the significant
>increase
>in cost and complexity.
>
>The goals for my "oversize EV gocart" are:
>
>1) Make passes down a dragstrip and be quicker than a stock Corvette
>(as
>good or better than a "performance ICE").
>2) Be able to provide "short test rides" to people at various events
>and
>shows (let others experience EV acceleration. Charging intermittently
>is
>acceptable).
>3) Be able to drive indoors with no ventilation (not practical with an
>ICE).
>4) Be able for me to drive back and forth to work (12.6 miles each way.
>Allows me to claim "daily driver" and gain daily exposure, free
>advertising, on the road).
>
>Obviously it would be great to exceed these but if I can meet all of
>these
>I will consider my prototype car a success.
>-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Jack,
While the form factor of a Leaf *pack* may notbe right, inside that pack
are rectangular *modules* that are easy enough to put into a different
shape pack, so you *can* play with the basic "building blocks" and see
if
a Leaf pack would be of any use.
Note that a single Leaf pack will not only give you limited range but
also
limited power as you cannot draw high performance current from a Leaf
pack
without destroying it in short order. But as a limited power prototype
to get a conversion going for not much money, it can be a first step.
Note that you can take 2, 3 or 4 Leaf packs in parallel and get both
range and power that will be closer to your expectation, the obvious
issue is to
find space for those modules, that will be your biggest challenge.

BTW, NEDRA will be a great resource of how to get the power you need and
do it in an EV.
Also, do not get discouraged by one person telling you how *he* would
approach your situation - you are in control of your own decisions and
can choose your own direction, many here are doing that, some are
building their own controllers.
I would suggest to get in contact with people who have been working at
the cutting edge and in the past have built great components exactly
because someone challenged them to get unheard of performance, notably
the Zilla controllers that Otmar designed.
Last I heard of him, he was designing a high-power AC controller so it
might be possible to use AC in your product, even though you may want to
stick to DC in the prototype to get power components that are available
*now*.
Success and let us know how it goes!

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Jack Wendel via
EV
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 5:28 PM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

Bill replied:


> As I said before, you have made a case that there may be a market for
a
> high-performance convertible EV. Why build the whole car when you can
> modify/customize an existing car and get exactly what you believe
there is
> a market for?


Great idea Bill. What 2-door sports car do I start with? ;^) A hacked up
4-door Tesla is nowhere close to "exactly what you believe there is a
market for". If someone wants a 4-door EV let em just buy a Tesla and
keep
me out of what I think is a money losing proposition.

BTW, I AM starting with an existing car and modifying it. It at least
has
the right number of doors and already comes as a convertible.


> Buy Tesla, chop off the top, and install a very nice custom
convertible
> (or removable hard top, or a T-top.) See how much you can sell it for
to
> test the market.
>

There are a few reasons why I do not want to  go that route:

1) It's a *4-door*. I want a sports car and nowhere in my definition of
a
"sports car" does "4-door" fit.
2) The cost of entry is too high. I would spend my entire budget and end
up
with a useless (to me) 4-door convertible.
3) It's a* 4-door*.
4) I can't say "I designed it and built it". At best I get to say "I
hacked
up a Tesla."
5) It's still a *4-door*.
6) I don't think the market for a 4-door convertible is a good measure
of
the market for a convertible sports car.
7) It's still a *4-door*.
8) I already feel bad enough when I see a nice C5  driving down the road
and I say "I actually hacked up one of those to do my project!" Think
how
bad I'd feel having hacked up a Tesla.
9) It's still a *4-door*.
10) I'd MUCH rather own my car as an ICE than a hacked up Tesla *4-door*
convertible.
11) I laugh at the idiots that in the past have built *4-door*
convertibles. I have no desire to be the butt of my own jokes. ;^)
12) You could be right and there isn't a market for my car. I'd rather
have
my car as a limited range EV than a *4-door* convertible.
13) I'm not a fan of the Tesla body style (even if it DIDN'T have
*4-doors*).
I'd have to rebody the thing to get what I want.

Bill, I'm not saying your approach wouldn't work, but I can't see
investing
all that money and time building something I don't want and I don't
think
there would be a market for it. Then I'd be stuck with the stupid thing.

Remember, I started my discussion asking if a $10k Leaf would be a good
starting point. The intent there was to keep my cost of entry as low as
possible for my prototype. I could buy a LOT of used Leafs for the cost
of
a Tesla! Luckily someone mentioned the form factor of a 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jack Wendel via EV]

Wow Lee, thanks for all the info! It let me know that DC motors aren't as
"bad" as I was led to believe.

I am a professional Agile/Lean software development coach. Our motto is
"Fail fast and learn". This means it is better to do something wrong and
learn what you can from it as quickly as possible than to spend excessive
time in planning for a "perfect" solution and end up with nothing but
documents.

I think of my prototype car as a "EV minibike" or "EV gocart" that someone
suggested as a starter project for learning. My "EV gocart" just happens to
be a lot bigger.

"DC is not flashy and high-tech enough for an expensive luxury sports car.
You want cutting-edge style, you want flash and glamor; you want to make a
statement."

Exactly why my production car will be AC and have regenerative braking. The
prototype will not have either of these because they provide minimal
increase in utility (real value to me) relative to the significant increase
in cost and complexity.

The goals for my "oversize EV gocart" are:

1) Make passes down a dragstrip and be quicker than a stock Corvette (as
good or better than a "performance ICE").
2) Be able to provide "short test rides" to people at various events and
shows (let others experience EV acceleration. Charging intermittently is
acceptable).
3) Be able to drive indoors with no ventilation (not practical with an
ICE).
4) Be able for me to drive back and forth to work (12.6 miles each way.
Allows me to claim "daily driver" and gain daily exposure, free
advertising, on the road).

Obviously it would be great to exceed these but if I can meet all of these
I will consider my prototype car a success.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

You _think_ you aren't competing with Tesla, but 
you will be. Your customers will compare the 
virtues of your car to the Tesla, and you must 
offer something that the Tesla does not. Nothing 
you have said would lure a customer towards your 
concept EV and away from buying a Tesla. Teslas 
have insane performance, and they cost less than 
$120k, and they have 200+ miles of range.


Folks simply _must_ have range. That is why Tesla 
sells, because it has _unbelievable_ range. 
People won't pay big bucks for an EV that doesn't 
have similar range to a Tesla. (It is impossible 
to talk a person out of range they can buy elsewhere at the same price.)


Folks new to EVs think "I'll just put a bigger 
battery pack into the car, and that will easily 
take care of aerodynamic drag problems which will 
cure my range issues." It doesn't, unfortunately. 
A bigger pack takes more room, which you don't 
have to give. You end up with a battery with a driver's seat.


If there a better battery technology becomes 
available, Tesla will offer it as a retrofit. 
(The offer an upgrade on the battery pack if you 
bought a Roadster, for example.)


You think, "I'll just give up range." and offer a 
car that has 50 miles of range, but stellar 
performance. The trouble is, your performance 
really can't do much better than a Tesla, at 
least on ordinary pavement. Tesla is up against 
the traction limit of ordinary pavement. You 
really can't get much faster acceleration than 
0-60 mph in 2.8 seconds on the street. Your tires won't grip any better.


I understand your desire to make a big bucks, 
high performance EV, but Tesla has simply beat 
you to the punch. Tesla beat _everyone_ to the 
punch. They will continue to beat everyone to the punch.


Bill D.

At 10:19 AM 1/14/2016, Jack Wendel wrote:

Bill wrote:Â

If you are going to sell them after you build 
one of your own, it is going to be very 
difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and value/dollar.



The assumption that I plan to compete with Tesla 
out of the gate is simply crazy. Tesla has a 
HUGE head start over me. If it were possible for 
me to compete either of the following would have to be true:Â


1) Tesla engineers are all idiots.Â
2) I am smarter than all the Tesla engineers combined.Â
3) Tesla hasn't learned a thing in all the years 
they have been in development and production.Â


Since we can safely assume 1 and 3 are not true, 
thanks for the compliment Bill! ;^)Â


You want a convertible, cut the top off of a 
Tesla. Do it very nicely and neatly of course, 
but that would be your best option. Sell that 
customized model of a Tesla, using the same 
business model as van conversions, stretch limos, and bulletproof cars use.



That would be great if I wanted to be in the 
business of converting  cars. I don't. Someone 
else can do that if they want to.Â

Â
One thing that you are not taking into account 
is that all OEM EVs are _very_ aerodynamic. (No 
exceptions.) This is directly related to range, 
the cost of the battery pack, the weight of the 
battery pack, and the cost of the car. A car 
with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a 
car with a heavy (and expensive) battery pack to 
make up for a bad Cd will take a performance hit 
because of the extra weight, and won't sell either.Â



Your assumptions are based on your perspective 
of value. Obviously nothing wrong with that and 
it's probably quite similar  to others on this 
list. No offense, but no one on this list would 
be a target customer of mine exactly for that 
reason. My target customers have a COMPLETELY different perspective of value.Â

Â
ICE cars really don't have to be aerodynamic to 
sell well. Poor aero doesn't impact the purchase 
price, or the weight of the vehicle, and doesn't 
alter the performance appreciably. All that 
really changes is the EPA estimated mileage. The 
customer doesn't care mostly because he doesn't think that far ahead.Â



Same with my target audience. All they care 
about is that the car is an "EV" and that they 
can  CLAIM to care about the environment.Â

Â
Thus, if you want a "classic" or "sporty" or 
some other styling, you can't sacrifice 
aerodynamic drag to achieve it. You must 
carefully style the car to achieve the desired 
look, while being very very aerodynamic. Not 
easy to do, but you must to build an EV that 
will actually sell. To sell, it must have range 
and performance and be competitive in cost. 
That, in turn, requires that it have a low Cd. 
Thus, a Mustang or a Corvette won't work. Awful Cd.



Again, different value system. My range will 
come from better battery technology. It's not 
there yet (nowhere close) but I want to have my 
cars built and tested before that happens. I 
cannot wait for that to happen before I pull the trigger on this project.Â

Â

-- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Probably the same as liquid vs air-cooled ICE,
if the motor is not liquid cooled (as apparently the Solectria
induction motors were) then adequate amount of air needs to be
available to cool the motor directly.
In fact, liquid cooling is just "concentrated air cooling at a distance"
since every liquid cooling takes its cooling effect from a radiator and 
air flow, so it is just expanding the surface area off-site from where
the
heat is created and (often) also allow a means to control the
temperature
of the cooled part (thermostat, fan switch).
On a direct (air) cooled part, the surface needs to be large enough, the
air flow big enough and the temp difference large enough to transfer the
heat
from the cooled part. If air flow is not sufficient or the incoming air
too hot to allow sufficient cooling then it can help to increase the
surface
area (fins) on the cooled part, but loss of air flow can seriously cause
the cooled part to overheat, even with fins (just like loss of coolant
or pump can cause serious overheating)

Cor van de Water 
Chief Scientist 
Proxim Wireless 
  
office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
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this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
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-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2016 10:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

On 14 Jan 2016 at 6:34, dovepa via EV wrote:

> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at
highway
> speed for extended periods of time. 

Can you explain what would cause this?  Not being an engineer, I don't 
understand why a series motor producing a given amount of power would 
produce more heat than a shunt, sepex, or induction motor.  

Is it that the efficiency is lower?

The Prestolite and ADC series motors had/have built in fans, but a fair 
number of builders add more cooling.  Typically it's a nice beefy bilge 
blower firing into a collar attached to the brush access ports.  That's 
another source of noise.  :-(

Come to that, though, Solectria's 1990s-era induction motors had big
fins on 
the outside, and they had to have a big axial fan forcing air over those

fins.  Without the fan, they'd overheat on the highway.  Those were 
supposedly pretty efficient motors, too, and not really all that
powerful.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Lee Hart via EV]

dovepa via EV wrote:

You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway 
speed for extended periods of time. With the advance in battery technology this 
is causing some people issues.


Series motors intended for on-road EVs have built-in fans. I've never 
needed to provide extra cooling for them in any of my EVs. The internal 
fan works *better* at high speeds -- most actually have more cooling 
than they need at high RPM. The internal fan is also an advantage they 
have over AC motors, which generally require a complex liquid cooling 
system.


Now if you're talking about a fork lift motor, some of them *are* 
sealed. They're for light-duty use (such as to run the hydraulic pumps 
for steering and lifting), or for operation in dirty or hazardous 
environments where a spark might set of an explosion.


EVDL Administrator wrote:

I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low
because the controller is relatively simple.


It's the combination of many things. Based on the generally available 
examples, DC motor advantages:


- Old tech: Simpler to understand, design, and use.
- Same RPM range as an ICE makes conversion easier.
- Torque-speed curves match an ICE+transmission. Maximum torque
at lowest speeds, even without a transmission.
- Easy to get: Mass produced, untold millions already in circulation.
- Cheaper: No rare earth magnets, fewer expensive power transistors,
microcontrollers and software not even needed.
- Rugged and durable. Can produce extremely high peak horsepower
without failing (which is why racers and railroad locomotives
use them).
- Very simple controllers. Can even be little more than contactors.
- Cooling usually built-in.
- Adaptable: Don't need to carefully match motors and controllers.
- Long life: Plenty of examples 50-100 years old.

On the other hand, the usual drawbacks of DC motors include...

- Boring old tech: Not fashionable.
- Lower efficiency: A consequence of being designed to be cheap
rather than efficient.
- Common examples don't do regen. It takes extra parts, so it's
usually left out to keep it simple and save money.
- Brush maintenance. Often exaggerated; brushes last at least 10x
longer than ICE oil changes.
- Hard to liquid-cool a DC motor due to the commutator. Air
cooled motors are noisier (though far less so than ICEs).


You can't fireball the commutator of an AC induction motor because it
doesn't have one.


No; but you can fireball the AC motor's controller. :-)

In these perennial AC vs. DC debates, it's important to keep in mind 
that they are fraternal twins. One boy, one girl; but otherwise nearly 
identical. Every generality like "boys are stronger" or "girls are 
smarter" will fail, because you can always find examples where the 
opposite is true.


All motors are really AC devices. The commutator is just a simple crude 
example of an electronic inverter. Anything you can do to optimize some 
aspect of an AC motor can also be done to a DC motor (and vice versa).


So, you can compare a *specific* AC motor to a *specific* DC motor. But 
you can't generalize from this that all motors of that type will have 
these same characteristics.



Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.
Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.


That is a consequence of the cheap plastic commutators in common use. 
There are banded and steel commutators that work fine at very high RPM.


In automotive applications, you don't really want high RPM as it 
requires an excessive amount of gear reduction to get it down to wheel 
speed.



A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load...
You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical
failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.


Yes. These are consequences of making the controller *too* simple. As 
Einstein said, "Things should be kept as simple as possible. But not 
*too* simple."


Complex systems also have these failure modes, as Audi and Toyota have 
found to their dismay (unintended acceleration).



Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not
the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is
generally not recommended for use in a road EV.


True; but a consequence of not designing regen into the controller to 
begin with. Since every motor (AC or DC) is intrinsically a generator as 
well, there are lots of DC motor systems that *do* have effective 
regen... when it was designed in to begin with.



A lot of good and expensive silicon has become smoke trying to handle regen.
Very few commercial EV controllers today try to do it.  Zapi is the only
brand I know of, but there may be others.


Zapi, Sevcon, GE, Cableform, and more... Even Curtis has a regen 
controller (the 1221R).



While I'm not in the market for a $150k high performance 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 14 Jan 2016 at 6:34, dovepa via EV wrote:

> You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway
> speed for extended periods of time. 

Can you explain what would cause this?  Not being an engineer, I don't 
understand why a series motor producing a given amount of power would 
produce more heat than a shunt, sepex, or induction motor.  

Is it that the efficiency is lower?

The Prestolite and ADC series motors had/have built in fans, but a fair 
number of builders add more cooling.  Typically it's a nice beefy bilge 
blower firing into a collar attached to the brush access ports.  That's 
another source of noise.  :-(

Come to that, though, Solectria's 1990s-era induction motors had big fins on 
the outside, and they had to have a big axial fan forcing air over those 
fins.  Without the fan, they'd overheat on the highway.  Those were 
supposedly pretty efficient motors, too, and not really all that powerful.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Lev Lvovsky via EV]

My only experience with this is pricing out AC systems vs. DC systems, and 
seeing the power ratings of both.  My understanding is that the controllers 
which Telsa uses are able to produce the amount of power that they do, due to 
the more expensive semiconductors they’re working with.  These are in-house 
units, vs. the Curtis controllers that we’re limited to.

All the AC vs. DC stuff in this thread, and the benefits that AC gives you vs. 
the cost are things you’re naturally going to have to consider.  Unless you 
have an EE designing one-off controllers for you, off the shelf parts are rare.

YMMV, and I’d love to hear stories to the contrary :)

-lev

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 2:46 PM, jackinausti...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> Lev, you are way past my area of knowledge. I never even found any AC that 
> met my power targets. I had no idea the controllers were significantly more 
> expensive. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:41 PM, Lev Lvovsky  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m on this list so that I can learn what it’ll take to convert a classic 
>> mustang to an EV with decent if not good performance.
>> 
>> To that end, my understanding is that AC motors which produce a reasonable 
>> amount of power are out of reach from the likes of you and I, on account of 
>> the expensive controllers required.  How do you plan on overcoming that?  
>> I’d personally like to go the AC route (as I’m sure many other people 
>> would), but it seems untenable.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> -lev
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:55 AM, via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to 
>>> convert it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow the 
>>> NEDRA path and use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity 
>>> (relatively) cheaply with the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to build 
>>> the real cars.
>> 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[dovepa via EV]

You left out the fact that series motors get too hot when operated at highway 
speed for extended periods of time. With the advance in battery technology this 
is causing some people issues.


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
From: EVDL Administrator via EV  Date: 1/13/2016  
10:55 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re:  Books on converting a car to ev? 
Series DC motors are about as cheap as you can get in terms of raw torque 
and HP per dollar.  That's why they're used in forklifts (and electric 
drills and vacuum cleaners).  

I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low 
because the controller is relatively simple.  You only need one blinking big 
switch (semiconductor array) because (1) the motor itself takes care of 
commutation (turning DC to AC) and (2) the field isn't separately excited so 
doesn't depend on the controller.

AFAIK most (all?) of the drag racers use series motors.  You can find out 
more about that over at NEDRA (nedra.com).

So if they have so much torque and power for the money, why doesn't Tesla 
use series motors?

Some possible answers:

Their torque characteristics (peak at stall, falling off at higher rpm) are 
the reverse of an ICE's.  That would be unfamiliar and maybe uncomfortable 
for some ICEV drivers.  If you have a manual trans in your series-motor 
conversion EV, you UPSHIFT when you need to accelerate hard.

Because of the mechanical commutator, series motors are noisier and need 
more maintenance than brushless motors.  OTOH, you can't fireball the 
commutator of an AC induction motor because it doesn't have one.  

Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.  
Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.

A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load.  It 
can easily go from nominal rpm to explosion rpm in a second or less.  You 
need safeguards to detect this and shut down the motor in case something in 
the driveline breaks.  A blast shield on the motor isn't a bad idea.

You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical 
failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.  This is known in 
Audi-ese and Toyota-ese as "unintended acceleration," and with 750hp behind 
it, is apt to be fatal.  Normally if an induction motor's inverter fails, 
the car will stop (in some failures, possibly rather abruptly, which has its 
own hazards).

Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not 
the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is 
generally not recommended for use in a road EV.  

A lot of good and expensive silicon has become smoke trying to handle regen. 
Very few commercial EV controllers today try to do it.  Zapi is the only 
brand I know of, but there may be others.

I'm probably an outlier on this list, since a lot of the DIY folks here are 
series motor users and like them.  However, I might be more similar to your 
target customer.  While I'm not in the market for a $150k high performance 
sports car, if I were, I wouldn't buy one with a DC series motor. 

No offense to anyone, but at that price point I expect refinement, and 
that's just not what you get with a series motor drive.  They tend to be 
more-brawn-than-brain, hair-all-over beasts.  But if you like driving an ICE 
with a wild cam and a loping idle, maybe a series motor would be right up 
your alley.

Another option that's seldom mentioned is a DC sep-ex motor.  With a proper 
controller, its torque characteristic is more familiar and (IMO) better 
suited to a car.  Regen is easy and common.

The controller is somewhat more expensive than a series motor controller, 
since it has to supply field current.  However, it's quite a bit cheaper (or 
should be) than an induction motor inverter, since it doesn't need 3 or more 
big semiconductor switches.  Controller failure still can mean full on and 
flat out, so your controller logic has to detect that and take action, but 
the motor won't normally overspeed if suddenly unloaded.

The downside is that you still have mechanical commutation, which brings in 
the maintenance and noise issues.

I personally don't know who currently makes a high power sep-ex EV motor.  
Maybe someone else here does.

Hope this helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Exactly

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719

Bill Dube wrote -
Tesla has simply
> beat you to the punch. Tesla beat _everyone_ to the punch. They will continue
to beat
> everyone to the punch.
>
> Bill D.



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[EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to convert 
it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow the NEDRA path and 
use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity (relatively) cheaply with 
the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to build the real cars. 

A potential wrench got thrown in the plan when I read about used Nissan Leafs 
being so cheap. I've been building and racing ICE cars for a long time and know 
you can't build as cheaply as you can buy used. Plus all the 'extra' stuff I'd 
get from scavenging a Leaf. Problem? Performance, or more accurately, lack 
thereof. The Leaf battery and motor will be far too small for my goals. And my 
car (at least the prototype) weighs a LOT more than a Leaf. 

So, would going the Leaf route provide any value or should I stick with the 
original plan? I do not care about range at all for the prototype, just 
performance. All the prototype has to do is look good, move on electric power 
and stick people in the seat for short test rides. It's the last goal that the 
Leaf power train won't do. 

BTW, I would just buy a used Tesla but I read they are worse than GM about who 
"owns" their cars. I'm afraid they wouldn't reactivate the drivetrain after I 
did the swap. They did that to a guy that rebuilt a wrecked Tesla himself. 


> On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:16 AM, via EV  wrote:
> 
> Good morning Bob.  Well I'm going to just jump right to the point.  Don't.  
> Go down to your nearest Nissan dealer and look at all the Leaf lease returns 
> and pick out a beauty.  For probably 10-12K.  You will have a vehicle 5-10 
> times better than the first one you could build. Well maybe.  But it will 
> still be cheaper than anything you could build.  Especially if you were to 
> use Lithium.  My conversion cost twice what my 2013 Leaf cost.  With a 
> warranty, new, with great heat and comfort.  
> 
> - Original Message -
> 
> From: "Bobby Keeland via EV"  
> To: "ev"  
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 6:40:12 PM 
> Subject: [EVDL] Books on converting a car to ev? 
> 
> I plan to buy a new ev when the range is high enough, and they don't cost 
> as much as a Tesla S. In the near term I am considering the conversion of 
> my 1951 Chevy pickup to ev, probably with it's own solar panels. I could 
> also charge it from the solar panels that power my house. Can anyone 
> recommend fairly up-to-date books that are specific to converting an ICE 
> vehicle to EV? 
> 
> Bob Keeland 
> Forest Dynamics 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 01/13/2016 04:01 PM, via EV wrote:


BTW, the target price for the finished car is $150,000 (recommended by the 
business advisors). No money to be made building these and selling them for 
less than that. If this doesn't work I'll still have a nice and unique EV 
sports car for a fraction of what a comparable car would cost and I'll just 
keep my day job.


Unless your EV supercar can outperform a dual motor Tesla S, I don't see 
you selling many of them at the $150,000 price point.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Bill, I HAVE gone through a detailed business plan. And it has been reviewed by 
a team of six business advisors. Apparently you misunderstand. My goal is not 
to CONVERT cars, it is to build my own EV sports car. My initial prototype is a 
conversion, simply because that cut years off of the process. To build your own 
EV vehicle requires: 

*Attractive body style 
*Chassis 
*EV drivetrain 

My business model allows me to stop at any point. I started with the body 
because I can finish the body, leave the car ICE (with twin turbos to hit the 
magic 750 horsepower "Supercar" level) and sell them like that. The body is 
about 75% finished. 

I did not start with the EV conversion because,mad you pointed out, it would 
cost a small fortune and destroy the value of the donor car. That makes no 
sense from a business perspective. 

I originally dismissed the EV route as cost prohibitive. But I met with that 
group of business advisors and they recommended the EV route to fill a current 
gap in the market. The ICE Supercar level is simply too crowded and represents 
a much higher business risk. Corvette and Viper have the entry cost too low to 
make any money there. While I t's a toss up whether to do the EV conversion or 
chassis after the body is done, the EV represents the quickest time to market 
unless I want to sell an ICE Supercar (not COMPLETELY out of the question). But 
the advisors said an ICE version would dilute the value of a later (and more 
expensive) EV version. 

I have absolutely no use for a small EV motorcycle so that does not interest me 
in the least. I belong to a Makerspace and several people have built EV 
bicycles or an EV go cart. That's not difficult, doing it at scale is. 

BTW, the target price for the finished car is $150,000 (recommended by the 
business advisors). No money to be made building these and selling them for 
less than that. If this doesn't work I'll still have a nice and unique EV 
sports car for a fraction of what a comparable car would cost and I'll just 
keep my day job. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 10:44 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> 
> I am reminded of a tired old joke:
> 
> A fellow won the lottery. A reporter asked him what he was going to do with 
> all the millions he had won.
> He answered, "I'm going to invest it in my EV conversion conversion business 
> until it is all gone!"
> 
> If you go through the effort to develop a detailed formal business plan, it 
> will become painfully obvious that there is simply no money to be made in the 
> conversion business. You will likely be a better person when you go bankrupt, 
> but you will indeed go broke. There are 1000's of folks throughout the world 
> that want to convert cars to electric for a living, and only a handful have 
> managed to scratch out a meager living in the EV conversion business. Pretty 
> much all of those folks had other income coming in to subsidize their EV 
> conversion efforts.
> 
> Have fun, convert a car if you like, but don't fool yourself into thinking it 
> can be a viable business model.
> 
> I would suggest that you convert a small motorcycle to electric. The cost of 
> conversion scales proportionally with the size of the vehicle. However, by 
> converting a small motorcycle, you will learn _everything_ about EV 
> conversion on a small scale and with a concomitantly small price tag.
> 
> Bill D.
> 
> 
>> On 1/13/2016 6:55 AM, via EV wrote:
>> I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to 
>> convert it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow the 
>> NEDRA path and use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity 
>> (relatively) cheaply with the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to build 
>> the real cars.
>> 
>> A potential wrench got thrown in the plan when I read about used Nissan 
>> Leafs being so cheap. I've been building and racing ICE cars for a long time 
>> and know you can't build as cheaply as you can buy used. Plus all the 
>> 'extra' stuff I'd get from scavenging a Leaf. Problem? Performance, or more 
>> accurately, lack thereof. The Leaf battery and motor will be far too small 
>> for my goals. And my car (at least the prototype) weighs a LOT more than a 
>> Leaf.
>> 
>> So, would going the Leaf route provide any value or should I stick with the 
>> original plan? I do not care about range at all for the prototype, just 
>> performance. All the prototype has to do is look good, move on electric 
>> power and stick people in the seat for short test rides. It's the last goal 
>> that the Leaf power train won't do.
>> 
>> BTW, I would just buy a used Tesla but I read they are worse than GM about 
>> who "owns" their cars. I'm afraid they wouldn't reactivate the drivetrain 
>> after I did the swap. They did that to a guy that rebuilt a wrecked Tesla 
>> himself.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:16 AM, via EV  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Good morning Bob.  Well I'm going to 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

If you are going to sell them after you build one of your own, it is 
going to be very difficult to beat the Tesla on performance, safety, and 
value/dollar.


You want a convertible, cut the top off of a Tesla. Do it very nicely 
and neatly of course, but that would be your best option. Sell that 
customized model of a Tesla, using the same business model as van 
conversions, stretch limos, and bulletproof cars use.


One thing that you are not taking into account is that all OEM EVs are 
_very_ aerodynamic. (No exceptions.) This is directly related to range, 
the cost of the battery pack, the weight of the battery pack, and the 
cost of the car. A car with crappy range simply won't sell. Likewise, a 
car with a heavy (and expensive) battery pack to make up for a bad Cd 
will take a performance hit because of the extra weight, and won't sell 
either.


ICE cars really don't have to be aerodynamic to sell well. Poor 
aero doesn't impact the purchase price, or the weight of the vehicle, 
and doesn't alter the performance appreciably. All that really changes 
is the EPA estimated mileage. The customer doesn't care mostly because 
he doesn't think that far ahead.


Thus, if you want a "classic" or "sporty" or some other styling, 
you can't sacrifice aerodynamic drag to achieve it. You must carefully 
style the car to achieve the desired look, while being very very 
aerodynamic. Not easy to do, but you must to build an EV that will 
actually sell. To sell, it must have range and performance and be 
competitive in cost. That, in turn, requires that it have a low Cd. 
Thus, a Mustang or a Corvette won't work. Awful Cd.


On 1/13/2016 9:09 PM, via EV wrote:

Probably the same story.

Problem is, I don't want a Tesla. I don't want a 4 door and I want a convertible. If I'm 
going to spend that kind of money, I'm going to get what I want. Ideally it will 
eventually be AWD with a motor for each wheel. Because I got a good deal on the donor car 
(low mileage C5 Corvette with a knock in the motor), I will have what I want for less 
than what a used Tesla goes for if I go the dual DC motor route.  Half of a used Tesla 
cost if I go dual turbo ICE. I want a race car I can drive on the street as a daily 
driver. Difficult to do with an ICE because they get radical, temperamental and loud at 
the 750+ hp level. Fun toy but stretching the definition of "daily driver".

Finally, there's gonna be nothing like being able to say "Yes, I designed it and 
built it myself!"

Sent from my iPhone


On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:23 PM, Mike Nickerson  wrote:

I can see why Tesla might have some input on enabling a drive train for a 
salvage Tesla that had been repaired.  The story I heard was that Tesla wanted 
to inspect the repairs before enabling the drive system.  (Might be a different 
story.)

However, if you have that problem with a conversion, that is a good hint that 
you have too many bits of the original vehicle left.  If you take it down to 
the raw motor and controller, the parts of the system that Tesla uses to 
control and enable the drive train will be gone.  Of course, that means A LOT 
of reverse engineering.  That is what Jack Rickard at EVTV is doing.

As others have said, you would be better off just buying a Tesla P85D with the 
money.  That will get you guaranteed performance, good reliability, and good 
resale value.  Battery, motor, and controller systems in the 700 hp (500 kW) 
range are really hard and expensive; especially one off.

My two bits.  As full disclosure, I have a Honda Civic del Sol conversion and a 
Tesla P85.  The Tesla is awesome.  The conversion isn't being driven much any 
more.

Mike

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Lev Lvovsky via EV]

I’m on this list so that I can learn what it’ll take to convert a classic 
mustang to an EV with decent if not good performance.

To that end, my understanding is that AC motors which produce a reasonable 
amount of power are out of reach from the likes of you and I, on account of the 
expensive controllers required.  How do you plan on overcoming that?  I’d 
personally like to go the AC route (as I’m sure many other people would), but 
it seems untenable.

thanks,
-lev

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 5:55 AM, via EV  wrote:
> 
> I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to convert 
> it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow the NEDRA path 
> and use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity (relatively) cheaply 
> with the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to build the real cars. 

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

I would sure hope it would! Otherwise I'd just go ICE. I know I can build an 
ICE to outrun a Tesla. But until Tesla starts building 2-door convertible 
sports cars (again) we are not competing for the same customers. Finally, I 
don't need to sell many cars. I will be selling uniqueness (again, from the 
business advisors). My goal is not to scale up because each additional car 
dilutes the uniqueness. My goal is to simply be in the market. I would be happy 
selling 5 or 6 cars a year. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 3:21 PM, Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 01/13/2016 04:01 PM, via EV wrote:
>> 
>> BTW, the target price for the finished car is $150,000 (recommended by the 
>> business advisors). No money to be made building these and selling them for 
>> less than that. If this doesn't work I'll still have a nice and unique EV 
>> sports car for a fraction of what a comparable car would cost and I'll just 
>> keep my day job.
> 
> Unless your EV supercar can outperform a dual motor Tesla S, I don't see you 
> selling many of them at the $150,000 price point.
> 
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[via EV]

Probably the same story. 

Problem is, I don't want a Tesla. I don't want a 4 door and I want a 
convertible. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'm going to get what I 
want. Ideally it will eventually be AWD with a motor for each wheel. Because I 
got a good deal on the donor car (low mileage C5 Corvette with a knock in the 
motor), I will have what I want for less than what a used Tesla goes for if I 
go the dual DC motor route.  Half of a used Tesla cost if I go dual turbo ICE. 
I want a race car I can drive on the street as a daily driver. Difficult to do 
with an ICE because they get radical, temperamental and loud at the 750+ hp 
level. Fun toy but stretching the definition of "daily driver". 

Finally, there's gonna be nothing like being able to say "Yes, I designed it 
and built it myself!"

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:23 PM, Mike Nickerson  wrote:
> 
> I can see why Tesla might have some input on enabling a drive train for a 
> salvage Tesla that had been repaired.  The story I heard was that Tesla 
> wanted to inspect the repairs before enabling the drive system.  (Might be a 
> different story.)
> 
> However, if you have that problem with a conversion, that is a good hint that 
> you have too many bits of the original vehicle left.  If you take it down to 
> the raw motor and controller, the parts of the system that Tesla uses to 
> control and enable the drive train will be gone.  Of course, that means A LOT 
> of reverse engineering.  That is what Jack Rickard at EVTV is doing.
> 
> As others have said, you would be better off just buying a Tesla P85D with 
> the money.  That will get you guaranteed performance, good reliability, and 
> good resale value.  Battery, motor, and controller systems in the 700 hp (500 
> kW) range are really hard and expensive; especially one off.
> 
> My two bits.  As full disclosure, I have a Honda Civic del Sol conversion and 
> a Tesla P85.  The Tesla is awesome.  The conversion isn't being driven much 
> any more.
> 
> Mike
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

Series DC motors are about as cheap as you can get in terms of raw torque 
and HP per dollar.  That's why they're used in forklifts (and electric 
drills and vacuum cleaners).  

I'm not a motor expert, but I suspect that the total system cost is low 
because the controller is relatively simple.  You only need one blinking big 
switch (semiconductor array) because (1) the motor itself takes care of 
commutation (turning DC to AC) and (2) the field isn't separately excited so 
doesn't depend on the controller.

AFAIK most (all?) of the drag racers use series motors.  You can find out 
more about that over at NEDRA (nedra.com).

So if they have so much torque and power for the money, why doesn't Tesla 
use series motors?

Some possible answers:

Their torque characteristics (peak at stall, falling off at higher rpm) are 
the reverse of an ICE's.  That would be unfamiliar and maybe uncomfortable 
for some ICEV drivers.  If you have a manual trans in your series-motor 
conversion EV, you UPSHIFT when you need to accelerate hard.

Because of the mechanical commutator, series motors are noisier and need 
more maintenance than brushless motors.  OTOH, you can't fireball the 
commutator of an AC induction motor because it doesn't have one.  

Series motor redline RPM is much lower than induction, for the same reason.  
Commutators have a tendency to fly apart if they overspeed.

A series motor will overspeed if it's run at full voltage with no load.  It 
can easily go from nominal rpm to explosion rpm in a second or less.  You 
need safeguards to detect this and shut down the motor in case something in 
the driveline breaks.  A blast shield on the motor isn't a bad idea.

You also need safeguards to detect controller failure, because the typical 
failure mode for a series motor controller is FULL ON.  This is known in 
Audi-ese and Toyota-ese as "unintended acceleration," and with 750hp behind 
it, is apt to be fatal.  Normally if an induction motor's inverter fails, 
the car will stop (in some failures, possibly rather abruptly, which has its 
own hazards).

Regenerative braking is a major challenge with a series motor.  This is not 
the same as the plug braking available on some Curtis controllers, which is 
generally not recommended for use in a road EV.  

A lot of good and expensive silicon has become smoke trying to handle regen. 
Very few commercial EV controllers today try to do it.  Zapi is the only 
brand I know of, but there may be others.

I'm probably an outlier on this list, since a lot of the DIY folks here are 
series motor users and like them.  However, I might be more similar to your 
target customer.  While I'm not in the market for a $150k high performance 
sports car, if I were, I wouldn't buy one with a DC series motor. 

No offense to anyone, but at that price point I expect refinement, and 
that's just not what you get with a series motor drive.  They tend to be 
more-brawn-than-brain, hair-all-over beasts.  But if you like driving an ICE 
with a wild cam and a loping idle, maybe a series motor would be right up 
your alley.

Another option that's seldom mentioned is a DC sep-ex motor.  With a proper 
controller, its torque characteristic is more familiar and (IMO) better 
suited to a car.  Regen is easy and common.

The controller is somewhat more expensive than a series motor controller, 
since it has to supply field current.  However, it's quite a bit cheaper (or 
should be) than an induction motor inverter, since it doesn't need 3 or more 
big semiconductor switches.  Controller failure still can mean full on and 
flat out, so your controller logic has to detect that and take action, but 
the motor won't normally overspeed if suddenly unloaded.

The downside is that you still have mechanical commutation, which brings in 
the maintenance and noise issues.

I personally don't know who currently makes a high power sep-ex EV motor.  
Maybe someone else here does.

Hope this helps.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Mike Nickerson via EV]

I can see why Tesla might have some input on enabling a drive train for a 
salvage Tesla that had been repaired.  The story I heard was that Tesla wanted 
to inspect the repairs before enabling the drive system.  (Might be a different 
story.)

However, if you have that problem with a conversion, that is a good hint that 
you have too many bits of the original vehicle left.  If you take it down to 
the raw motor and controller, the parts of the system that Tesla uses to 
control and enable the drive train will be gone.  Of course, that means A LOT 
of reverse engineering.  That is what Jack Rickard at EVTV is doing.

As others have said, you would be better off just buying a Tesla P85D with the 
money.  That will get you guaranteed performance, good reliability, and good 
resale value.  Battery, motor, and controller systems in the 700 hp (500 kW) 
range are really hard and expensive; especially one off.

My two bits.  As full disclosure, I have a Honda Civic del Sol conversion and a 
Tesla P85.  The Tesla is awesome.  The conversion isn't being driven much any 
more.

Mike


On January 13, 2016 6:55:58 AM MST, via EV  wrote:
>I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to
>convert it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow
>the NEDRA path and use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity
>(relatively) cheaply with the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to
>build the real cars. 
>
>A potential wrench got thrown in the plan when I read about used Nissan
>Leafs being so cheap. I've been building and racing ICE cars for a long
>time and know you can't build as cheaply as you can buy used. Plus all
>the 'extra' stuff I'd get from scavenging a Leaf. Problem? Performance,
>or more accurately, lack thereof. The Leaf battery and motor will be
>far too small for my goals. And my car (at least the prototype) weighs
>a LOT more than a Leaf. 
>
>So, would going the Leaf route provide any value or should I stick with
>the original plan? I do not care about range at all for the prototype,
>just performance. All the prototype has to do is look good, move on
>electric power and stick people in the seat for short test rides. It's
>the last goal that the Leaf power train won't do. 
>
>BTW, I would just buy a used Tesla but I read they are worse than GM
>about who "owns" their cars. I'm afraid they wouldn't reactivate the
>drivetrain after I did the swap. They did that to a guy that rebuilt a
>wrecked Tesla himself. 
>
>
>> On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:16 AM, via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Good morning Bob.  Well I'm going to just jump right to the point. 
>Don't.  Go down to your nearest Nissan dealer and look at all the Leaf
>lease returns and pick out a beauty.  For probably 10-12K.  You will
>have a vehicle 5-10 times better than the first one you could build.
>Well maybe.  But it will still be cheaper than anything you could
>build.  Especially if you were to use Lithium.  My conversion cost
>twice what my 2013 Leaf cost.  With a warranty, new, with great heat
>and comfort.  
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> 
>> From: "Bobby Keeland via EV"  
>> To: "ev"  
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 6:40:12 PM 
>> Subject: [EVDL] Books on converting a car to ev? 
>> 
>> I plan to buy a new ev when the range is high enough, and they don't
>cost 
>> as much as a Tesla S. In the near term I am considering the
>conversion of 
>> my 1951 Chevy pickup to ev, probably with it's own solar panels. I
>could 
>> also charge it from the solar panels that power my house. Can anyone 
>> recommend fairly up-to-date books that are specific to converting an
>ICE 
>> vehicle to EV? 
>> 
>> Bob Keeland 
>> Forest Dynamics 
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>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA

Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 13 Jan 2016 at 7:55, via EV wrote:

> So, would going the Leaf route provide any value or should I stick with the
> original plan?

I wonder if you could do what Solectria did for extra performance - use two 
motors and inverters.  Three, even.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Collin Kidder via EV]

On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 8:55 AM, via EV  wrote:
>
> BTW, I would just buy a used Tesla but I read they are worse than GM about 
> who "owns" their cars. I'm afraid they wouldn't reactivate the drivetrain 
> after I did the swap. They did that to a guy that rebuilt a wrecked Tesla 
> himself.
>
>

Well, there are people who have successfully gotten the Tesla
drivetrain to work outside of the Model S - EVTV and Michal Elias. So,
I wouldn't worry too much about Tesla. They might not like it but you
could use the drivetrain in something else.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf donor car? Re: Books on converting a car to ev?

[Bill Dube via EV]

I am reminded of a tired old joke:

A fellow won the lottery. A reporter asked him what he was going to do 
with all the millions he had won.
He answered, "I'm going to invest it in my EV conversion conversion 
business until it is all gone!"


If you go through the effort to develop a detailed formal business plan, 
it will become painfully obvious that there is simply no money to be 
made in the conversion business. You will likely be a better person when 
you go bankrupt, but you will indeed go broke. There are 1000's of folks 
throughout the world that want to convert cars to electric for a living, 
and only a handful have managed to scratch out a meager living in the EV 
conversion business. Pretty much all of those folks had other income 
coming in to subsidize their EV conversion efforts.


Have fun, convert a car if you like, but don't fool yourself into 
thinking it can be a viable business model.


I would suggest that you convert a small motorcycle to electric. The 
cost of conversion scales proportionally with the size of the vehicle. 
However, by converting a small motorcycle, you will learn _everything_ 
about EV conversion on a small scale and with a concomitantly small 
price tag.


Bill D.


On 1/13/2016 6:55 AM, via EV wrote:

I am designing and building my own sports car. My eventual goal is to convert 
it to electric and sell them. The initial plan was to follow the NEDRA path and 
use a DC motor to get high performance and publicity (relatively) cheaply with 
the prototype. Then convert to AC motors to build the real cars.

A potential wrench got thrown in the plan when I read about used Nissan Leafs 
being so cheap. I've been building and racing ICE cars for a long time and know 
you can't build as cheaply as you can buy used. Plus all the 'extra' stuff I'd 
get from scavenging a Leaf. Problem? Performance, or more accurately, lack 
thereof. The Leaf battery and motor will be far too small for my goals. And my 
car (at least the prototype) weighs a LOT more than a Leaf.

So, would going the Leaf route provide any value or should I stick with the 
original plan? I do not care about range at all for the prototype, just 
performance. All the prototype has to do is look good, move on electric power 
and stick people in the seat for short test rides. It's the last goal that the 
Leaf power train won't do.

BTW, I would just buy a used Tesla but I read they are worse than GM about who 
"owns" their cars. I'm afraid they wouldn't reactivate the drivetrain after I 
did the swap. They did that to a guy that rebuilt a wrecked Tesla himself.



On Jan 13, 2016, at 7:16 AM, via EV  wrote:

Good morning Bob.  Well I'm going to just jump right to the point.  Don't.  Go 
down to your nearest Nissan dealer and look at all the Leaf lease returns and 
pick out a beauty.  For probably 10-12K.  You will have a vehicle 5-10 times 
better than the first one you could build. Well maybe.  But it will still be 
cheaper than anything you could build.  Especially if you were to use Lithium.  
My conversion cost twice what my 2013 Leaf cost.  With a warranty, new, with 
great heat and comfort.

- Original Message -

From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
To: "ev" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 6:40:12 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Books on converting a car to ev?

I plan to buy a new ev when the range is high enough, and they don't cost
as much as a Tesla S. In the near term I am considering the conversion of
my 1951 Chevy pickup to ev, probably with it's own solar panels. I could
also charge it from the solar panels that power my house. Can anyone
recommend fairly up-to-date books that are specific to converting an ICE
vehicle to EV?

Bob Keeland
Forest Dynamics
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