Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
So - in a sense the availability of QC could improve the Leaf's pack life if you only charge to 80-ish percent SoC and rely more on QC to complete the trips that you otherwise would have needed a full charge for? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -Original Message- From: EV on behalf of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Sat 3/28/2015 10:53 AM To: David Rees; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening It's pretty easy to verify pack voltage using LeafSpy or LeafDD or similar tools. I've verified that my LEAF is down close to 25% after almost 4 years and almost 40k miles in southern California. That said, the INL (Idaho National Laboratory) tested four 2012 LEAFs in Arizona over a period of about 2 years and 50,000 miles - two were only charged on L2, the other two were only charged using DC QC. http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf Battery capacity was verified by pulling the packs and measuring capacity using a defined test protocol. While the DC QC cars fared slightly worse, at the end of 50k miles the L2 charged cars had lost almost 25% of their capacity and the QCed cars lost about 27% of their capacity. So yeah - the 2011-2012 LEAFs definitely lose capacity fast, especially in hot climates. The good news is that frequent QC doesn't appear to significantly change your rate of capacity loss unless you use QC nearly exclusively. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/6b95d1a1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5231 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/65acdebd/attachment.bin ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Yes. That is pretty much what the best scientists working on it say. Keeping it from getting too hot (which may not be all that hot, and I have not read anything that tells what temperature or other thermal history is implicated) when fully charged should eliminate the degradation caused by the reactive, delithiated positive electrode from tearing up the electrolyte. You CAN control how much of a charge you put on it, and you CAN simply make sure you run some of the charge off right away. This is bound to improve matters. $10k and a some Leaf cells and you might get a study done to sort it out better. Rank speculation: NIssan probably won't fund it, or reveal if that have - they simple made the problem go away by some needed modifications to the pack. There are other potential problems, but this is what has messed up the Leafs in places like AZ according to Jeff Dahn. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So - in a sense the availability of QC could improve the Leaf's pack life if you only charge to 80-ish percent SoC and rely more on QC to complete the trips that you otherwise would have needed a full charge for? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -Original Message- From: EV on behalf of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Sat 3/28/2015 10:53 AM To: David Rees; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening It's pretty easy to verify pack voltage using LeafSpy or LeafDD or similar tools. I've verified that my LEAF is down close to 25% after almost 4 years and almost 40k miles in southern California. That said, the INL (Idaho National Laboratory) tested four 2012 LEAFs in Arizona over a period of about 2 years and 50,000 miles - two were only charged on L2, the other two were only charged using DC QC. http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf Battery capacity was verified by pulling the packs and measuring capacity using a defined test protocol. While the DC QC cars fared slightly worse, at the end of 50k miles the L2 charged cars had lost almost 25% of their capacity and the QCed cars lost about 27% of their capacity. So yeah - the 2011-2012 LEAFs definitely lose capacity fast, especially in hot climates. The good news is that frequent QC doesn't appear to significantly change your rate of capacity loss unless you use QC nearly exclusively. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/6b95d1a1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 5231 bytes Desc: not available URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/65acdebd/attachment.bin ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Yep. They hired the guy that developed high precision coulometry to be the engineer in charge of cell life. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 6:37 PM, Mike Nickerson m...@nickersonranch.com wrote: Tesla seems to realize that too. You can adjust the end charge point. For daily use, they recommend a range that looks like it is about 50-80%. On March 28, 2015 3:39:15 PM MDT, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Yes. That is pretty much what the best scientists working on it say. Keeping it from getting too hot (which may not be all that hot, and I have not read anything that tells what temperature or other thermal history is implicated) when fully charged should eliminate the degradation caused by the reactive, delithiated positive electrode from tearing up the electrolyte. You CAN control how much of a charge you put on it, and you CAN simply make sure you run some of the charge off right away. This is bound to improve matters. $10k and a some Leaf cells and you might get a study done to sort it out better. Rank speculation: NIssan probably won't fund it, or reveal if that have - they simple made the problem go away by some needed modifications to the pack. There are other potential problems, but this is what has messed up the Leafs in places like AZ according to Jeff Dahn. On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So - in a sense the availability of QC could improve the Leaf's pack life if you only charge to 80-ish percent SoC and rely more on QC to complete the trips that you otherwise would have needed a full charge for? Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203 -Original Message- From: EV on behalf of Michael Ross via EV Sent: Sat 3/28/2015 10:53 AM To: David Rees; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening It's pretty easy to verify pack voltage using LeafSpy or LeafDD or similar tools. I've verified that my LEAF is down close to 25% after almost 4 years and almost 40k miles in southern California. That said, the INL (Idaho National Laboratory) tested four 2012 LEAFs in Arizona over a period of about 2 years and 50,000 miles - two were only charged on L2, the other two were only charged using DC QC. http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf Battery capacity was verified by pulling the packs and measuring capacity using a defined test protocol. While the DC QC cars fared slightly worse, at the end of 50k miles the L2 charged cars had lost almost 25% of their capacity and the QCed cars lost about 27% of their capacity. So yeah - the 2011-2012 LEAFs definitely lose capacity fast, especially in hot climates. The good news is that frequent QC doesn't appear to significantly change your rate of capacity loss unless you use QC nearly exclusively. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/6b95d1a1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 27, 2015, at 1:46 PM, Roland via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The maximum battery running temperature was 68 degrees F Just to be clear...you're reporting the weather, right? You're telling us that, during the time you used the car that you're telling us about, the battery never heated above 68°F, and *not* that Nissan has specified that thou shalt not let the batteries heat to over 68°F? b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/aa67e08c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Yes, the rate of charge is not a problem, it is being fully charged AND too hot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:06 AM, David Rees via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening It's pretty easy to verify pack voltage using LeafSpy or LeafDD or similar tools. I've verified that my LEAF is down close to 25% after almost 4 years and almost 40k miles in southern California. That said, the INL (Idaho National Laboratory) tested four 2012 LEAFs in Arizona over a period of about 2 years and 50,000 miles - two were only charged on L2, the other two were only charged using DC QC. http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf Battery capacity was verified by pulling the packs and measuring capacity using a defined test protocol. While the DC QC cars fared slightly worse, at the end of 50k miles the L2 charged cars had lost almost 25% of their capacity and the QCed cars lost about 27% of their capacity. So yeah - the 2011-2012 LEAFs definitely lose capacity fast, especially in hot climates. The good news is that frequent QC doesn't appear to significantly change your rate of capacity loss unless you use QC nearly exclusively. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150328/6b95d1a1/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 5:43 AM, Paul Dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening It's pretty easy to verify pack voltage using LeafSpy or LeafDD or similar tools. I've verified that my LEAF is down close to 25% after almost 4 years and almost 40k miles in southern California. That said, the INL (Idaho National Laboratory) tested four 2012 LEAFs in Arizona over a period of about 2 years and 50,000 miles - two were only charged on L2, the other two were only charged using DC QC. http://avt.inl.gov/fsev.shtml http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/energystorage/DCFC_Study_FactSheet_50k.pdf Battery capacity was verified by pulling the packs and measuring capacity using a defined test protocol. While the DC QC cars fared slightly worse, at the end of 50k miles the L2 charged cars had lost almost 25% of their capacity and the QCed cars lost about 27% of their capacity. So yeah - the 2011-2012 LEAFs definitely lose capacity fast, especially in hot climates. The good news is that frequent QC doesn't appear to significantly change your rate of capacity loss unless you use QC nearly exclusively. -Dave ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/27/2015 12:50 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted down. When the charger shut off, it zeroed itself. After a few years driving my conversion with a TBS amp-hour counter, I was expecting something as straightforward in my Leaf. I don't know how modern factory EVs estimate the battery capacity but on the conversion, I felt the need to do the occasional capacity test. I would fully charge and balance and then pull it down until some cells started going low. I reported the tests here amid quite a bit of scepticism. My 260ah ThunderSky LFP cells started off giving me about 300ah. They smoothly declined over the years and are currently about 230ah. I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery. I was sorely disappointed. The conversion went about 50 k miles over about 7 years and suffered about 20% capacity loss from new (a bit more than 10% from advertised). While the Leaf lost 30+% in two years and 20k miles. Both batteries endured the horribly hot summer (about 100 days above 100 deg) that so damaged the Leaf battery. The ThunderSkys seemed unaffected. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2015, at 6:03 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 03/27/2015 12:50 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted down. When the charger shut off, it zeroed itself. After a few years driving my conversion with a TBS amp-hour counter, I was expecting something as straightforward in my Leaf. I don't know how modern factory EVs estimate the battery capacity but on the conversion, I felt the need to do the occasional capacity test. I would fully charge and balance and then pull it down until some cells started going low. I reported the tests here amid quite a bit of scepticism. My 260ah ThunderSky LFP cells started off giving me about 300ah. They smoothly declined over the years and are currently about 230ah. I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery. I was sorely disappointed. The conversion went about 50 k miles over about 7 years and suffered about 20% capacity loss from new (a bit more than 10% from advertised). While the Leaf lost 30+% in two years and 20k miles. Both batteries endured the horribly hot summer (about 100 days above 100 deg) that so damaged the Leaf battery. The ThunderSkys seemed una ffected. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/27/2015 06:53 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. If this is addressed to me. And if the question is how do you know your Leaf battery had lost 30+% of capacity My Leaf initially had 90+ miles of range down to zero remaining miles estimate and/or turtle. Near the end of my Leaf experience, I had the car towed twice when it failed to reach it's destination at range of a bit more than 60 miles. When the car was new, Steve Clunn and I ran it down to nothing to see how it behaved. We pulled it in the last hundred yards with a golf cart. The conclusion was: about 1 mile after turtle. Given that the crappy instrumentation failed to report estimated capacity, I had to infer capacity from range. Amusingly, I drove my imiev about 22 miles yesterday from a full charge. The estimated range was 41 miles. At the end of the trip, the estimated range was 43 miles. I don't know what happened. Normally, from a full charge, the estimated range starts at 60-70 miles. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
*I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery.* As far as I can tell that was an unwarranted assumption. If anything is true, it is certain that LFP are an outlier in behavior to the other chemistries that have Li metal oxide positive electrodes. I heard Jack Rickard claim he knows what the chemistry of t a Leaf cells are, but it wasn't from a spec sheet. Does anyone know for certain? I heard a professor working on cell design claim Tesla was using LFP, but is clearly no long correct, if it ever was. Misinformation abounds. Then you add in we know nothing of the details of cell construction - ** how is the graphite was made and handled? ** how is the electrolyte and its additives were compounded? ** What is the quality of connection between the conductors and the terminal connections? In the pack we don't know - ** how well the cells are connected and by what? ** are they cooled? ** how well does it work? ** how does the BMS work? ** how should it work? In the field we don't have a good idea how driving habits and climate impact different cells. And so on. This is a tall stack of don't knows. Then we try to do these comparisons in the least accurate way - ** with very imprecise instrumentation (LFP is the worst for a flat voltage/capacity curve) ** during uncontrolled use, ** in a long term performance evaluation ** where all the unknown contributing factors have a chance to accumulate idiosyncratically.. We take our pattern seeking mind with all its cognitive biases an start drawing inferences from coincidences and feelings. It is no wonder we are mostly confused about it. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 7:03 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 03/27/2015 12:50 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted down. When the charger shut off, it zeroed itself. After a few years driving my conversion with a TBS amp-hour counter, I was expecting something as straightforward in my Leaf. I don't know how modern factory EVs estimate the battery capacity but on the conversion, I felt the need to do the occasional capacity test. I would fully charge and balance and then pull it down until some cells started going low. I reported the tests here amid quite a bit of scepticism. My 260ah ThunderSky LFP cells started off giving me about 300ah. They smoothly declined over the years and are currently about 230ah. I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery. I was sorely disappointed. The conversion went about 50 k miles over about 7 years and suffered about 20% capacity loss from new (a bit more than 10% from advertised). While the Leaf lost 30+% in two years and 20k miles. Both batteries endured the horribly hot summer (about 100 days above 100 deg) that so damaged the Leaf battery. The ThunderSkys seemed unaffected. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/ group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/44df66bf/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Well that just verifies what I said. You have no data other than coming from the Leaf instruments. If it calculates capacity incorrectly it will shut down the car. You still don't know if the battery failed or the capacity measurement is off. One would have to measure voltage and amp hours to really know what is happening Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2015, at 7:15 AM, Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 03/27/2015 06:53 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. If this is addressed to me. And if the question is how do you know your Leaf battery had lost 30+% of capacity My Leaf initially had 90+ miles of range down to zero remaining miles estimate and/or turtle. Near the end of my Leaf experience, I had the car towed twice when it failed to reach it's destination at range of a bit more than 60 miles. When the car was new, Steve Clunn and I ran it down to nothing to see how it behaved. We pulled it in the last hundred yards with a golf cart. The conclusion was: about 1 mile after turtle. Given that the crappy instrumentation failed to report estimated capacity, I had to infer capacity from range. Amusingly, I drove my imiev about 22 miles yesterday from a full charge. The estimated range was 41 miles. At the end of the trip, the estimated range was 43 miles. I don't know what happened. Normally, from a full charge, the estimated range starts at 60-70 miles. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Paul Dove via EV wrote: My questions is How can you be sure? Are you positive the Leaf instrumentation measures capacity correctly. They claim it is all an instrumentation issue not a battery issue. The I-MiEV instructs the owner to periodically drive the vehicle almost empty and then recharge fully to keep the fuel gauge accurate. My view is that the just like us, the auto companies are *experimenting* with electric cars. Unlike us here, they don't experiment on their own cars, and share their data for the benefit of others. They *sell* their experiments to YOU, and let you bear the costs (and risks). And keep the data for their own competitive advantage. But at least they are finally building them, and will hopefully learn something from all that data they are harvesting to make them better. (I'll bet Nissan knows everything about how Willie drove and charged his Leaf, for example). -- Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple, reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy. -- Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeah...@earthlink.net ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Actually I think the flat V versus capacity of LFP is an asset. It is what enables you to use Ah used, a nice stable, repeatable measurement, that tracks Wh used quite well over most of the capacity of the pack (I've data logged battery V and I using 1 sample/sec and compared them). I've used a TBS gauge (like Willy) for over 5 years now, and kept track of Ah used to various destinations in a 3x5 notebook I keep in the glove box. As a result, I can look at a route on google maps and from the distance and elevation change estimate to typically within a few percent how many Ah it will take to get there (like David mentioned with the Solectria). A computer could learn that way to...if only David would give it his destinations. :^)) You can't expect all drivers to track things that way though, they just want to get in and go without checking anything. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-LEAF-EV-Pack-Reliability-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics-tp4674498p4674575.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
I think the main asset of LFP is it takes an extra 100C or so to ignite the electrolyte. They can burn just not as well as others) LFP has some real disadvantages too. It is somewhat more costly to manufacture due to it being necessary to make the positive electrode in an inert atmosphere. LFP cells are not compact (low volumetric density) They start to deteriorate badly at a pretty low temperature when fully charged- 40°C (104°F). I have unfortunately applied this last detriment to my own LFP packs for my LEV. Jeff Dahn mentioned another chemistry that had an upper limit of 35°C (95°F). Information on the temperature stability of cells is not widely known or complete across all cell types. (If I had a spare quarter of a million to buy the test equipment I would love to characterize all that.) See page 3 https://www.bcg.com/documents/file36615.pdf for pcomparison of properties for Li Ion cells. Flat curve doesn't compete with more capacity in my mind. It may mean a BMS has to be a better design with more precise and accurate control. A less flat curve might mean you can detect a good upper cutoff voltage more easily. Getting that last little bit of capacity into a cell is a good way to trash it. A really good way to get more life from a cell is to cut it off high and low, giving up a decent proportion of capacity in the meantime. Your choice. Tesla packs are large at least in part so they can not charge them fully, and not discharge them fully. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 11:32 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Actually I think the flat V versus capacity of LFP is an asset. It is what enables you to use Ah used, a nice stable, repeatable measurement, that tracks Wh used quite well over most of the capacity of the pack (I've data logged battery V and I using 1 sample/sec and compared them). I've used a TBS gauge (like Willy) for over 5 years now, and kept track of Ah used to various destinations in a 3x5 notebook I keep in the glove box. As a result, I can look at a route on google maps and from the distance and elevation change estimate to typically within a few percent how many Ah it will take to get there (like David mentioned with the Solectria). A computer could learn that way to...if only David would give it his destinations. :^)) You can't expect all drivers to track things that way though, they just want to get in and go without checking anything. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-LEAF-EV-Pack-Reliability-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics-tp4674498p4674575.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/05df6441/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
WIllie2 and I were having a back channel about this topic. Willie was thinking that LFP had a voltage simnilar to other chemistries. I thought others might want to see this too. Here is what the Handbook of Batteries 4th Ed. says. From Table 26.3 Characteristics of Some Positive Electrode Materials: Order of entries: Material, Specific Capacity (mAh/g), MIdpoint Voltage vs. Li at C/20, Comments *LiCoO(2) (LCO) 155, 3.9 * Most common, Co expensive =$ *LiNi(1-x-y)Mn(x)Co(y)O(2) (NMC), 140 -180, ~3.8* Safer, =$, capacity depends on upper cutoff V *LiNi(0.8)Co(0.15)Al(0.05)O(2),200,3.75* Safe as LCO, high capacity (Tesla?) *LiMn(2)O(4),100 - 120, 4.05* =$, Safer than LCO, poor temp stability *LiFePO(4) (LFP), 160,3.45* Very safe, low volumetric energy, processed in inert gas =$ process *Li[Li(1/9)Ni(1/3)Mn(5/9)]O(2), 275 3.8* High specific capacity, low rate capability, RD scale only *LiNi(0.5)Mn(1.5)O(4), 130,4.6* Requires electrolyte that is stable at high voltage This raises some questions for me. They are trying to be very careful how they describe and compare voltages. I am not clear on how they do it - versus LI? What is that exactly. I do understand that it is tricky because each chemistry has a different look to its curve; so what is a valid way to do it? I think he must have chosen the particular anode materials to show a range of properties rather than to be comprehensive. He made careful distinctions between the anode formulations. Not being an electrochemist I can't say I understand the meaning of the various x and y, decimal and fractional proportions. I read so much stuff casually...I am pretty sure Tesla uses the LiNiCoAlO (I call it NCA) the high capacity on by weight, and that makes sense as they were trying to answer the range anxiety business as best they could. I will link again to this paper that is nice overview of various chemistries, it is getting a litttle long in the tooth though. https://www.bcg.com/documents/file36615.pdf On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Michael Ross michael.e.r...@gmail.com wrote: I don't think that is correct about the the voltage. I will look around. LFP to my recollection is notably lower than the other chemistries as it is not a Li metal oxide. It is a Li metal phosphate. Let my get out the handbook. On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 9:35 AM, Willie2 wmckem...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/27/2015 08:04 AM, Michael Ross wrote: *I was expecting similar or better performance on the Leaf battery.* As far as I can tell that was an unwarranted assumption. If anything is true, it is certain that LFP are an outlier in behavior to the other chemistries that have Li metal oxide positive electrodes. I heard Jack Rickard claim he knows what the chemistry of t a Leaf cells are, but it wasn't from a spec sheet. Does anyone know for certain? I heard a professor working on cell design claim Tesla was using LFP, but is clearly no long correct, if it ever was. Misinformation abounds. Early on, I read that Leafs were using LiMn, about the same voltage as LFP, ~3.2. Tesla's laptop cells are clearly LiCo, ~3.7v. Granted, there are vast and significant differences within all chemistries. It was their LiCo cells that gave ThunderSky such a bad reputation before about 2007. ThunderSky used to offer LiMn prismatic cells as well as LFP. The LiMn were rated at ~800 cycles while the LFPs were 2000-4000. This is from the era when I was shopping for very early lithium cells for a conversion, about 2007. I recall being very wary of Leafs when I first heard they were LiMn. I finally accepted that Nissan must know what they are doing. Wrong, I was. On the other hand, I was very wary of Tesla's cells because of the known fire hazard. Wrong again. At least, so far. I wonder what became of Jukka? He should be commenting here. -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
The Li Ion batteries that I received new from a Nissian Dealer about 5 months ago have a formula of LiMnO4 + LiNiO2 for the Anode. The Cathode is Graphite. The maximum rated voltage is 4.2V. Recommend maximum voltage to use is 4.0 volts. The minimum voltage is down to 2.4V which I will never go down that far. Recommend lowest cell voltage is 2.85V. So far the minuimum voltage is 3.8 volt after driving about 10 miles. The maximum battery running temperature was 68 degrees F and the charging temperature is the same after charging for 45 minutes. The battery pack has six cells in parallel which only receives about 8 amps each charging at 50 ampere at 240 VAC charger. The battery temperature was at 68 degrees F in side the battery box which is insulated to about 30 R Factor. Did not turn on the battery box exhaust fan, because the outside ambient air temperature was greater than 68 F. Maximum ambient out side temperature was 72 F and the inside of the EV passenger compartment was 84 degrees after the EV was setting outside for about 2 hours. This is the first time I turn on the A/C this year. Roland - Original Message - From: Willie2 via EVmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org To: Electric Vehicle Discussion Listmailto:ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Friday, March 27, 2015 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/27/2015 10:40 AM, Michael Ross wrote: WIllie2 and I were having a back channel about this topic. Willie was thinking that LFP had a voltage simnilar to other chemistries. I thought others might want to see this too. Here is what the Handbook of Batteries 4th Ed. says. From Table 26.3 Characteristics of Some Positive Electrode Materials: Order of entries: Material, Specific Capacity (mAh/g), MIdpoint Voltage vs. Li at C/20, Comments *LiCoO(2) (LCO) 155, 3.9 * Most common, Co expensive =$ *LiNi(1-x-y)Mn(x)Co(y)O(2) (NMC), 140 -180, ~3.8 * Safer, =$, capacity depends on upper cutoff V *LiNi(0.8)Co(0.15)Al(0.05)O(2),200,3.75 * Safe as LCO, high capacity (Tesla?) *LiMn(2)O(4),100 - 120, 4.05 * =$, Safer than LCO, poor temp stability *LiFePO(4) (LFP), 160,3.45 * Very safe, low volumetric energy, processed in inert gas =$ process *Li[Li(1/9)Ni(1/3)Mn(5/9)]O(2), 275 3.8* High specific capacity, low rate capability, RD scale only *LiNi(0.5)Mn(1.5)O(4), 130,4.6* Requires electrolyte that is stable at high voltage I stand corrected. It is implied that to the best of my recollection prefaces every thing I say. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/aff52e93/attachment.htmhttp://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/aff52e93/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orghttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRAhttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150327/932938b3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 25 Mar 2015 at 18:07, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: The Honda EVPlus had much better range than the Nissan Leaf. When I was forced to give it back after six years and 60,000 miles, I could still drive more than 100 miles on a charge. And you lithium guys tell me I'm a derelict still thinking that NiMH is the battery chemistry of choice for EVs. Take that! ;-) And a whack with a gen1 RAV4-EV (many still trundling along on the factory original NiMH battery at 100k+ miles) while I'm at it. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
One way to approach it would be to use a look up table of measured vehicle energy per mile, and google maps (courtesy of USGS). The driver would be required to enter their destination. Present location would be read from a GPS. A proposed route map would appear on the screen, which the driver could modify as desired. The system would then compute the energy per mile required for each step, say 1/4 mile, of the route using elevation changes from the topo map and typical speed limits for type of roadway. The driver could have the option of entering different assumed vehicle speed. This would give a more accurate estimate than the presently used moving average based on past x miles traveled, but still just an estimate. Myself, I think it is mainly useful for the new driver. After you have driven a given ev for several months you get quite at doing this estimation yourself, particularly if you regularly track Ah or Wh used. I have tracked Ah used by writing them in a 3x5 notebook. Now I can guess quite accurately off the top of my head how many Ah it will take to go to a given destination by looking at the terrain and distance on google maps, and I imagine others here can do the same. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-LEAF-EV-Pack-Reliability-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics-tp4674498p4674534.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now. Good to know that it's a feature of one of the first-tier electric vehicles on the market. Gives one hope that it'll be a standard long into the future -- and, hopefully, one that gets refined with future generations. After all, it's not uncommon to have gas gauges on ICE vehicles that behave less than ideally linearly due to tank shape or voltage regulation or whatever, but I don't know that it's been a big priority for manufacturers to improve gas gauges over the years. But an EV should have far more than enough computational oomph to do whatever is needed to properly refine a measurement of remaining kWh. If experience shows that the estimate is too optimistic over the bottom quarter of the display range, it's not _that_ hard to initially add a fudge factor to the software...and, eventually, some smart analytics to truly nail it. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/b5e160c5/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Good points, Ben. It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. Here's one explanation: http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/ Compared to that, I appreciate the numeric charge percentage display on LEAF V1.5. Cheers, -Jamie On 3/26/15 9:58 PM, Ben Goren wrote: On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now. Good to know that it's a feature of one of the first-tier electric vehicles on the market. Gives one hope that it'll be a standard long into the future -- and, hopefully, one that gets refined with future generations. After all, it's not uncommon to have gas gauges on ICE vehicles that behave less than ideally linearly due to tank shape or voltage regulation or whatever, but I don't know that it's been a big priority for manufacturers to improve gas gauges over the years. But an EV should have far more than enough computational oomph to do whatever is needed to properly refine a measurement of remaining kWh. If experience shows that the estimate is too optimistic over the bottom quarter of the display range, it's not _that_ hard to initially add a fudge factor to the software...and, eventually, some smart analytics to truly nail it. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 9:22 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: It's interesting to note how gas gauges are set up, psychologically. Here's one explanation: http://theappslab.com/2010/12/21/how-does-your-gas-gauge-really-work/ Somehow...I'm not surprised. The newest car I own is a 1968 VW Westfalia, so it's not a phenomenon I'm personally familiar with. But I'm still not surprised. I'm thinking that, between the fuel sensors in modern fuel injection systems and the power meters in electric motor controllers, it should be trivially to do some mutual calibration between the relevant systems. If you know you've shoved five gallons of fuel through the injectors between the time the float rheostat read this voltage and that voltage...you know that the one voltage represents five gallons less than the other. Similarly, if you know the motor's been drawing 8 kW for the past fifteen minutes, you know you've used up 2 kWh -- and the starting pack voltage represents two more kilowatt-hours of capacity than the ending pack voltage. With the chance to re-refine the estimates every time you drive the car. Really shouldn't be rocket science b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/da4408c4/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/26/15 10:36 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh. Why bother with the intermediate conversion to KWH? If you know how far you can go on 50%, then you are done. Because at any time I can multiply kWh times the displayed miles/kWh (which will change due to driving conditions) to quickly arrive at a range number in miles. (Percentage remaining * 20kWh) * miles/kWh = instant range in miles This is basically what the built-in guess-o-meter does, but now I have a way to confirm it, and a way to make a more accurate guess if, for example, I know I'm about to go up a long hill and the miles/kWh will go down (from my experience). And using the LEAF V1.5 percentage readout I don't have to bother with the beautifully presented but hard-to-read and arbitrary bar display that people here have been complaining about, and I don't have to guess how long it's been at any particular bar position and how much of that bar might be left. 100 steps on a percentage basis is a finer measure to use than a smaller number of bars, and quicker to grok. Of course if I had a LEAF V1 w/o the percentage display then yes, I think your method would be workable. For that matter, on the 2013 LEAF at least, most of the time the guess-o-meter isn't too bad, and it only takes a quick glance. But since it can't look ahead, there are times when I like my method of confirmation. Cheers, -Jamie With my 2011 Leaf, I know I can travel 10 miles on the last bar, 20 miles on the last two bars, 29 on the last three bars and 37 on the last four bars. This is with fully inflated tires, the climate control off, keeping the speed below 50mph, never accelerating hard enough to have more than 3 power dots filled at once (there is always one filled), and only using regen or coasting to slow down. If I keep the speed under 35mph I can get another mile or so per bar. I know to never be more than about 35 miles from home when I get to the last four bars. Since the miles per bar on the first 8 bars is significantly less it is essentially impossible to be more than 35 miles from home before getting to the last four bars. The last four bars is about 50%. However, it is possible to be more than 20 miles from home with only two bars left. I make sure I plan to avoid this situation. Of course this algorithm gets thrown off a bit because a bar gets erased every time the car is power cycled. If I'm on a trip where I care, I have to make sure I notice how many bars are active before I shut it off. Ed ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:48 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh. Why bother with the intermediate conversion to KWH? If you know how far you can go on 50%, then you are done. With my 2011 Leaf, I know I can travel 10 miles on the last bar, 20 miles on the last two bars, 29 on the last three bars and 37 on the last four bars. This is with fully inflated tires, the climate control off, keeping the speed below 50mph, never accelerating hard enough to have more than 3 power dots filled at once (there is always one filled), and only using regen or coasting to slow down. If I keep the speed under 35mph I can get another mile or so per bar. I know to never be more than about 35 miles from home when I get to the last four bars. Since the miles per bar on the first 8 bars is significantly less it is essentially impossible to be more than 35 miles from home before getting to the last four bars. The last four bars is about 50%. However, it is possible to be more than 20 miles from home with only two bars left. I make sure I plan to avoid this situation. Of course this algorithm gets thrown off a bit because a bar gets erased every time the car is power cycled. If I'm on a trip where I care, I have to make sure I notice how many bars are active before I shut it off. Ed ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 26, 2015, at 7:23 PM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: The car or some big computer can't read you mind, so if it is going to make an informed, accurate estimate - you are going to have to tell it what your destination is. You want accuracy, you have to tell it what is going to happen. I can't imagine there is another way. That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge, For a century or so drivers have done just fine with a remaining (usable) gallons of fuel gauge and a basic idea of how far they can make it on a gallon of fuel based on current conditions. This whole voltage-based thing is irrelevant. What people want to know is how much energy is left, in whatever form, and they're fine translating that to distance with precision enough for typical driving. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150326/18ef3a82/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/26/15 8:57 PM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge, For a century or so drivers have done just fine with a remaining (usable) gallons of fuel gauge and a basic idea of how far they can make it on a gallon of fuel based on current conditions. This whole voltage-based thing is irrelevant. What people want to know is how much energy is left, in whatever form, and they're fine translating that to distance with precision enough for typical driving. Well put, Ben. That works for me, and it pretty much sums up what LEAF V1.5 (2013-2015) displays right now. The percent-of-charge-remaining display shows how much charge is left as a percentage from 0-100%. The pack is 24kWh, but I think it uses only about 20kWh of that. So multiply the percentage by 20 to get remaining kWh. (That may be a bit conservative but I don't mind erring on the conservative side.) For example, if the display shows 50%, then 50% of 20kWh is 10kWh. There is a resettable display of miles/kWh so you can see what you are getting on your current trip, both as an average and as an instant readout as you drive. Multiply remaining kWh by the miles per kWh you're achieving. That will give you a quick guesstimate of remaining range. Temper that by upcoming conditions, such as uphill or downhill driving and your experience with the route. For example if you're getting 5 miles/kWh and you expect to be driving in similar conditions ahead, then you could likely go about 50 more miles on 50% charge remaining. For me, keeping a buffer just in case, I would be comfortable if the destination was within 30 miles or so at that point. Even though the miles remaining guess-o-meter on the LEAF V1.5 is perhaps more accurate than in earlier models (more of an ongoing average and less prone to wild swings), it's still sometimes handy to have the LEAF V1.5's percent-of-charge-remaining display to confirm the situation. I leave the percent-of-charge-remaining display on the dash at all times. If you want, you can also bring up the nav screen and see a circle outlining your current remaining guess-o-meter range on a map. If things are getting tight, the nav system can show charging stations within guess-o-meter range. However I prefer to use Plugshare's app to investigate chargers since it seems more complete and up to date, and since it includes comments from others about the operational readiness of each charger. All that said, after you've driven your typical routes a few times you can mostly ignore the gauges and just enjoy EV driving. (Unless you are trying to beat a personal efficiency record on a route, which can be fun. Or if driving conditions have changed, such as bad weather or traffic jams, where you may want an extra confirmation of how you're doing.) Cheers, -Jamie ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 26 Mar 2015 at 19:57, Ben Goren via EV wrote: That's the idea behind my suggestion of a remaining (usable) kWh gauge ... Sounds good to me. Solectria had a simple answer to this. They gave you a straightforward amp- hour meter. As you drove, it counted up; as you charged, it counted down. When the charger shut off, it zeroed itself. Since it didn't count down as you drove, it didn't need to know what the total battery capacity was. In fact, it expected you, as the driver, to have a clue about that. The drive inverter protected the (lead-gel) battery by limiting drive current to keep its on-load voltage from dropping below 10.5vpc. So even if you didn't buy the optional voltmeter/ammeter combination, you knew from the way the car felt when you were reaching a critical battery voltage level. You learned that when the meter read, say, 40 amp-hours, your car's acceleration started to weaken, because of that 10.5vpc clamp. (When driven carefully, Forces could do a mile per amp-hour - about 150Wh/mi. James Worden was a fantatic for efficiency, sometimes to a fault.) When the amp- hour meter started getting close to that point, you started thinking about finding a place for the car to sip some electrons. You learned that your usable battery capacity depended on driving conditions, just as folks who drive 80mph know they're going to have stop for fuel miles sooner than those who are driving 60mph in the same kind of ICEV. So you adjusted. You learned what cold temperatures did to your range. You learned that battery capacity declines with age. You compensated for that too. This sounds complex, but it worked surprisingly well, because (believe it or not), aware EV drivers LEARN. Natural intelligence! They're at least as good as computers in judging how much farther they can drive their EVs. In fact, hundreds - probably thousands - of conversion EV owners since the 1960s and 1970s have done just fine with nothing but simple expanded-scale voltmeters. They learned what the meters read at various speeds and loads when they had range left, and what the meters read when they were getting close to their limits. There are still plenty of good drivers who can interpret instruments. A lot of them are right here on the EVDL. Ed Blackmond's description of how he reads his 2011 Leaf's gauge - I know I can travel 10 miles on the last bar - is a perfect example. But smarter cars tend to make dumber drivers, and automakers now design to this low standard. Liability is on their minds too. Hence ever-more-complex computerized EV remaining-range guess gauges. And hence, eventually, self-driving cars, EVs I hope, which someday I suspect will be so smart and concerned for your welfare that they'll tell you, I'm sorry, that destination is too dangerous. I'm not allowed to take you there. But that's another matter entirely. I think. Uh, does this tinfoil hat make me look taller? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
I think the ~70 Wh/lb is too low of specific energy for longer range ev's David. The lithium cobalt chemistry used by Tesla is much higher, ~250 for bare cells, and their battery pack is still ~1 ton. Would be nice to have about twice the Tesla cell specific energy. But I agree the NiMH seems pretty bullet proof. A company recently announced they had improved its specific energy. With all such pronouncements, we'll see... -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-LEAF-EV-Pack-Reliability-Outperforms-Cynics-Critics-tp4674498p4674535.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 26 Mar 2015 at 6:26, tomw via EV wrote: One way ... a look up table of ... vehicle energy per mile, and .. maps ... The driver would be required to enter their destination. Great if you need navigation to get where you're going, but otherwise, I'm not so sure. This sounds like too much setup hassle when I just want to go somewhere I already know well. I also don't take well to stuff like the driver would be required to enter their destination, especially when the car is probably sending that info to some big computer somewhere via cellular data. Have to get it calculated fast, you know! And of course they have to save it, for quality control. Sorry, none of their business. I don't use voice recognition on my mobile phone for the same reason. I think the best answer is the most obvious one: Keep working to improve range, and add more public charging points, so range anxiety ceases to be a major concern for most drivers. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Does anyone here know if Nissan implemented any technological responses to the failures in southwestern US? Those that are the subject o af lawsuit? All I know about is the test results showing deterioration under high temp and high SOC conditions. Did Nissan make any changes and when? Mike On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/ NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira [image https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives Nissan Europe Mar 17, 2015 - Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010 - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages § Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with more than 30,000 sold across Europe ] - Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages - Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car, with over 165,000 sold globally Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than 35,000 European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF, proprietary data released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent of its battery units remain entirely fit for purpose. The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that “batteries would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that “high-mileage LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in the first year of ownership.” In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than 0.01 percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines. To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology, Nissan tracked down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still enjoying fault-free motoring in her LEAF three years on: Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There was a lot of apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but with sales climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths continue to be regurgitated today.” The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33 percent increase in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of the burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales. Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in Europe, comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery faults in our vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue with that. “The battery technology is just part of our success story. With over 165,000 customers globally, it’s clear that we’re not the only people who are thrilled by the success of this state-of-the-art technology.” With just three main components – the on-board charger, inverter and motor – the Nissan LEAF is also 40 percent cheaper to maintain compared to petrol or diesel-powered alternatives. The Nissan LEAF launched over four years ago in 2010, as one of the first mass-market, pure-electric vehicles. It is now the best-selling electric vehicle in history, with over 165,000 LEAF vehicles sold globally, more than 35,000 of which have been sold in Europe; clocking up an impressive one billion kilometres worldwide. [© 3d-car-shows.com] ... http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives.html Nissan LEAF Battery Reliably Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives 23 March 2015 http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-sends-powerful-message-to-those-who-doubt-electric-vehicles-1-7171329 Nissan sends powerful message to those who doubt electric vehicles Fiona Thompson 23 March 2015 NISSAN’S Leaf batteries have shown they go the distance after less than 0.01 per cent of those installed in 35,000 cars have failed. Five years after the first models were built, data has shown 99.9per cent of the battery units made remain fit for purpose, with just three breaking during that time. It is said to be a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines. To prove their long-term reliability, Nissan tracked down the owner of the model which appeared in Top Gear’s test drive and electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert Llewellyn, who owns a Leaf. He said: “This comes as no surprise.
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have made some improvements. Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5 years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less if the car is efficient. At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up. On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe. AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few times since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation. Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of the old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for earlier 2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total). Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168; hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Cheers, -Jamie https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably- outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/ NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira [image https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives Nissan Europe Mar 17, 2015 - Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010 - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages § Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with more than 30,000 sold across Europe ] - Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages - Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car, with over 165,000 sold globally Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than 35,000 European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF, proprietary data released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent of its battery units remain entirely fit for purpose. The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that “batteries would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that “high-mileage LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in the first year of ownership.” In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than 0.01 percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines. To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology, Nissan tracked down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still enjoying fault-free motoring in her LEAF three years on: Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There was a lot of apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but with sales climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths continue to be regurgitated today.” The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33 percent increase in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of the burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales. Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in Europe, comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery faults in our vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue with that. “The battery technology is just part of our success story. With
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe. AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few times since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation. Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of the old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for earlier 2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total). Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Cheers, -Jamie https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/ NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira [image https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives Nissan Europe Mar 17, 2015 - Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010 - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages § Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with more than 30,000 sold across Europe ] - Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages - Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car, with over 165,000 sold globally Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than 35,000 European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF, proprietary data released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent of its battery units remain entirely fit for purpose. The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that “batteries would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that “high-mileage LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in the first year of ownership.” In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than 0.01 percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines. To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology, Nissan tracked down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still enjoying fault-free motoring in her LEAF three years on: Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There was a lot of apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but with sales climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths continue to be regurgitated today.” The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33 percent increase in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of the burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales. Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in Europe, comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery faults in our vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue with that. “The battery technology is just part of our success story. With over 165,000 customers globally, it’s clear that we’re not the only people who are thrilled by the success of this state-of-the-art technology.” With just three main components – the on-board charger, inverter and motor – the Nissan LEAF is also 40 percent cheaper to maintain compared to petrol or diesel-powered alternatives. The Nissan LEAF launched over four years ago in 2010, as one of the first mass-market, pure-electric vehicles. It is now the best-selling electric vehicle in history, with over 165,000 LEAF vehicles sold globally, more than 35,000 of which have been sold in Europe; clocking up an impressive one billion kilometres worldwide. [© 3d-car-shows.com] ... http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives.html Nissan LEAF Battery Reliably Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives 23 March 2015 http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-sends-powerful-message-to-those-who-doubt-electric-vehicles-1-7171329 Nissan sends powerful message to those who doubt electric vehicles Fiona Thompson 23 March 2015 NISSAN’S Leaf batteries have shown they go the distance after less than 0.01 per cent of those installed in 35,000 cars have failed. Five years after the first models were built, data has shown 99.9per cent of the battery units made remain fit for purpose, with just
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote: Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have made some improvements. Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements to the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168__hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5 years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less if the car is efficient. Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty: http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the next five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price will remain volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity prices are generally lower, less volatile and costs generally go up more slowly. Some folks lock in a low electric cost by installing solar panels. It also helps that electric cars are more efficient than gas cars. At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up. AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate: By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I haven't heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that will happen someday. Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement (today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you need) is about $250 per KWh, which is actually a market leading low price. The price could come down further and/or the available capacity of the pack could go up by the time a typical LEAF pack would need to be replaced. If ROI is your primary consideration when purchasing a car then you would want to make a complete accounting, including all of the maintenance and repair expenses over whatever you consider to be the car's useful life. Plus fuel costs. I would put battery replacement in the maintenance/repair category. There isn't much else in that category for the LEAF since it obviously doesn't require a gas car's typical engine/transmission/fuel system/exhaust system parts-fest. With regen, the LEAF doesn't even use the brake pads much. The LEAF is widely available today, has a decent feature set, and an improved battery from at least 2013 forward. Electric vehicles offer important advantages, so I'm glad it's available along with other choices. It's the current best-selling BEV for a variety of reasons. Only you know what works for you. Cheers, -Jamie On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 3/25/15 3:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % Yes, but to be fair it looks like the quoted articles are about Europe. AFAIK the US problem was primarily in hot climates in some earlier models. It's been reported that the packs have been updated a few times since then. 2013+ LEAF packs have a better reputation. Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. To outright purchase a replacement pack costs $5500 with trade-in of the old pack, plus installation (and a necessary upgrade kit for earlier 2011/2012 models which would add up to about $6k total). Warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168__hilit=+battery+update#p374490 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Cheers, -Jamie https://3d-car-shows.com/__nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-__outperforms-cynics-critics-__and-alternatives/
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. I know from personal experience that Nissan has been less than honorable in dealing with battery warranty issues. Their instrumentation obfuscates the true situation. IMHO, that is by design. Bars have almost no meaning. The car owner has no idea what true battery capacity is other than by observing declining range. Nissan uses this dearth of owner accessible information to deny capacity loss. Even if honored, the warranty is nearly useless. It specifies at least 30% capacity loss (as determined by Nissan). By the time a Leaf is 30% down in capacity, it has lost almost all of it's utility. And it seems likely that Nissan is forcing owners to suffer to 40% or 50% loss before warranty replacement. My Leaf went from about 95 miles of range down to about 65 miles. With 65 miles of range, Nissan declared my battery to be fine and refused to replace. For the first year, my Leaf served about 90% of my needs. With 65 miles of range, it was less than 50%. I went from being able to drive the Leaf about 15k miles per year to way less than 10k miles. With such crappy range, the car was not worth keeping. I bought the Leaf with the expectation that the battery would serve for at least five years and, when it was time for replacement, cheaper and bigger batteries would be available. I found it to have a two year battery with no warranty protection. I was extremely happy with my Leaf. For the first year. I'm at two years on the Tesla and still extremely happy. The Tesla has gone 50k miles in two years and has lost about 5% of capacity. Tesla instrumentation is honest and clear, much in contrast to the Leaf's. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Ok, you've convinced me, Willie, that I should have a Tesla. I'm going to open a kickstarter campaign to get me Tesla. Anyone who contributes will get free use for a day :) Peri -- Original Message -- From: Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 25-Mar-15 9:45:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. I know from personal experience that Nissan has been less than honorable in dealing with battery warranty issues. Their instrumentation obfuscates the true situation. IMHO, that is by design. Bars have almost no meaning. The car owner has no idea what true battery capacity is other than by observing declining range. Nissan uses this dearth of owner accessible information to deny capacity loss. Even if honored, the warranty is nearly useless. It specifies at least 30% capacity loss (as determined by Nissan). By the time a Leaf is 30% down in capacity, it has lost almost all of it's utility. And it seems likely that Nissan is forcing owners to suffer to 40% or 50% loss before warranty replacement. My Leaf went from about 95 miles of range down to about 65 miles. With 65 miles of range, Nissan declared my battery to be fine and refused to replace. For the first year, my Leaf served about 90% of my needs. With 65 miles of range, it was less than 50%. I went from being able to drive the Leaf about 15k miles per year to way less than 10k miles. With such crappy range, the car was not worth keeping. I bought the Leaf with the expectation that the battery would serve for at least five years and, when it was time for replacement, cheaper and bigger batteries would be available. I found it to have a two year battery with no warranty protection. I was extremely happy with my Leaf. For the first year. I'm at two years on the Tesla and still extremely happy. The Tesla has gone 50k miles in two years and has lost about 5% of capacity. Tesla instrumentation is honest and clear, much in contrast to the Leaf's. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/25/15 10:54 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote: Ok, you've convinced me, Willie, that I should have a Tesla. I'm going to open a kickstarter campaign to get me Tesla. Anyone who contributes will get free use for a day :) Whatta deal! Or just wait a few years and get the model 3... Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If 70% of the initial LEAF range meant it lost nearly all its utility then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery improvements since then, I would expect that 2013+ LEAF packs will generally hold up longer than what you experienced. Time will tell. Cheers, -Jamie Peri -- Original Message -- From: Willie2 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 25-Mar-15 9:45:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?) On 03/25/2015 10:34 AM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Failures below spec are eligible for warranty replacement. Replacements are with the so-called Lizard battery pack, which is reported to be more tolerant of hotter climates. I know from personal experience that Nissan has been less than honorable in dealing with battery warranty issues. Their instrumentation obfuscates the true situation. IMHO, that is by design. Bars have almost no meaning. The car owner has no idea what true battery capacity is other than by observing declining range. Nissan uses this dearth of owner accessible information to deny capacity loss. Even if honored, the warranty is nearly useless. It specifies at least 30% capacity loss (as determined by Nissan). By the time a Leaf is 30% down in capacity, it has lost almost all of it's utility. And it seems likely that Nissan is forcing owners to suffer to 40% or 50% loss before warranty replacement. My Leaf went from about 95 miles of range down to about 65 miles. With 65 miles of range, Nissan declared my battery to be fine and refused to replace. For the first year, my Leaf served about 90% of my needs. With 65 miles of range, it was less than 50%. I went from being able to drive the Leaf about 15k miles per year to way less than 10k miles. With such crappy range, the car was not worth keeping. I bought the Leaf with the expectation that the battery would serve for at least five years and, when it was time for replacement, cheaper and bigger batteries would be available. I found it to have a two year battery with no warranty protection. I was extremely happy with my Leaf. For the first year. I'm at two years on the Tesla and still extremely happy. The Tesla has gone 50k miles in two years and has lost about 5% of capacity. Tesla instrumentation is honest and clear, much in contrast to the Leaf's. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 25 Mar 2015 at 12:11, Michael Ross via EV wrote: If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. You and everyone else. This is much of what killed the few lead-battery EVs offered in the 1980s and 1990s. Owners typically drove the cars for 3-4 years (if they were lucky and if they did the maintenance right), and then had to cough up $1000-2000 for a new battery. They expected to spend that kind of money on rebuilding an ICEV's transmission after 7 or 8 years, so when it came round again in another 3-4 years, the car went into the local Auto Trader magazine (remember those?) as needs batteries, the asking price a fraction of what the owner paid new. (Great deals for folks like us!) Never mind that the owner had paid nothing for oil changes and tune-ups all that time (in those days ICEVs needed more of that stuff). All he saw was that big battery bill, and he expect[ed] cars to last 10+ years. In the meantime ICEVs haven't stood still. They are now a much harder target to hit when competing on reliability, quiet, comfort, and smoothness - maybe even on social values, though Western buyers are not known for caring much about the social impact of their buying choices. I sometimes compare ICEVs to the highly evolved phono cartridges available in the 1970s and 1980s. (For you young people, I'm talking about playing vinyl records.) Just when it seemed they had reached their peak, PCM digital reproduction came along and offered some clear advantages. LPs, turntables, and phono cartridges are still manufactured today, but in tiny quantities. If that were a good analogy, when the Leaf (or EV1, or RAV4-EV, or whatever) came out it should have quickly buried ICEVs, with every manufacturer rushing to tool up to make EVs. But that didn't happen. Why not? Though there are some personal pluses to EVs, and we love them - let's face it, they're just not comparable to the CD's advantage over LPs. The biggest ones accrue to society as a whole, and as I said, around here that isn't on Joe and Jane Average's smartphone screen. For Joe or Jane to consider an EV, society has PAY him or her in the form of government subsidies, and that's subject to political whim. I'm surprised we still have them in the US, and don't expect them to last another 5 years. They might last longer in the EU, if they manage to stabilize their economy. But the EU has other hurdles for EVs to deal with. So maybe my analogy above is wrong. EVs vs ICEVs is more like satellite or digital radio vs traditional FM broadcast: they're better, all right, but they solve a problem that most users / buyers just don't care that much about. I'm a big EV fan, but I'm also realistic about how much of the market they're going to own in the short term. Until the gas pumps finally run dry, I'm afraid EVs will remain a (small) minority. Better get yours while you can. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 12:47 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So maybe my analogy above is wrong. EVs vs ICEVs is more like satellite or digital radio vs traditional FM broadcast: they're better, all right, but they solve a problem that most users / buyers just don't care that much about. I'm a big EV fan, but I'm also realistic about how much of the market they're going to own in the short term. Until the gas pumps finally run dry, I'm afraid EVs will remain a (small) minority. Better get yours while you can. That's why I keep banging the pony car drum. You can build an EV that outperforms a supercar for the price of a family sedan. Once the manufacturers start selling pony car EVs that outperform their electric brethren, EVs will be seen as the gotta-have high performance model and ICE as yesterday's slow old-n-busted news that only losers are stuck with. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/25/2015 12:37 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If 70% of the initial LEAF range meant it lost nearly all its utility then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery improvements since then, I would expect that 2013+ LEAF packs will generally hold up longer than what you experienced. Time will tell. Maybe I failed to make my point. At this point, I don't care if/when Nissan can make a reliable battery. I now know that their warranty is worthless and they have lost me as a customer and potential customer. A potentially troublesome battery is not a deal breaker. IF the maker is honorable and can be relied on to fulfil his obligations. Nissan can not. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
The LEAF instrumentation has changed since 2011/12. On the 2013+ LEAF models, there is a new percentage of charge remaining display option - a useful improvement. Also, the guess-o-meter, the miles remaining display, has an improved algorithm. Using the percentage of charge display and the miles/kWh display you can do your own estimating to double check the car's best guess, since you know more about the upcoming driving conditions, driving style and route ahead than the car does (it only looks at past performance). Cheers, -Jamie On 3/25/15 2:24 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote: On 03/25/2015 03:14 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: Their instrumentation is not very linear. When fully (100%) charged, the state of charge gauge indicates 12 bars. The 12th bar lasts for about 3 miles on residential/commercial (25mph - bar left. The first 36 miles took 8 bars, the last 37.5 miles took less than 4 bars. The state of charge algorithm also removes one of the bars every time the car is power cycled if more than half a bar is used. That is very annoying. I get out of the car with four bars remaining, and get back in with just three. It eventually recovers from this mistake, but it means I have to remember where it was when I turned the car off. The only thing I will say about the miles remaining meter is that it is inaccurate. The display is disabled when the number would go below four, so it wouldn’t even say zero when the pack was completely Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop on your energy flows. Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
They changed the batteries to what is called a lizard pack. Not sure how they achieved a more robust chemistry/structure. Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat fingers on a small device, not cluelessness... On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:06 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Does anyone here know if Nissan implemented any technological responses to the failures in southwestern US? Those that are the subject o af lawsuit? All I know about is the test results showing deterioration under high temp and high SOC conditions. Did Nissan make any changes and when? Mike On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 5:03 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: % Some U.S. Leaf owners would state differently % https://3d-car-shows.com/nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives/ NISSAN LEAF BATTERY RELIABLY OUTPERFORMS CYNICS, CRITICS AND ALTERNATIVES March 23, 2015 By Gerald Ferreira [image https://3d-car-shows.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/nissan-leaf.jpg video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V1bJJwJhEg Nissan LEAF Battery Reliability Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives Nissan Europe Mar 17, 2015 - Just 0.01% of batteries have been replaced since 2010 - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages § Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling electric car, with more than 30,000 sold across Europe ] - Five years on, Nissan reports 99.99% battery success rate across Europe - More reliable than a petrol or diesel engine, according to industry averages - Nissan LEAF is the world’s best-selling all-electric car, with over 165,000 sold globally Rolle, Switzerland, 19 February 2015: Five years and more than 35,000 European sales since the launch of its all-electric LEAF, proprietary data released by Nissan for the first time shows that 99.99 percent of its battery units remain entirely fit for purpose. The findings will silence naysayers who, in 2010, claimed that “batteries would need to be fully replaced after three years,” or that “high-mileage LEAFs would experience a noticeable drop in battery capacity in the first year of ownership.” In fact, the failure rate of the battery power unit is less than 0.01 percent – or just three units in total – a fraction of the equivalent industry-wide? figure for defects affecting traditional combustion engines. To prove the long-term reliability of the battery technology, Nissan tracked down a rather infamous early model, whose owner is still enjoying fault-free motoring in her LEAF three years on: Electric vehicle advocate and presenter of online TV channel Fully Charged, Robert Llewellyn commented: “This comes as no surprise. There was a lot of apprehension about electric technology in the beginning, but with sales climbing month-on-month I struggle to see how these myths continue to be regurgitated today.” The Nissan LEAF has smashed its own sales record with a 33 percent increase in sales in 2014 over the previous year, taking more than a quarter of the burgeoning electric car market with 15,098 sales. Jean-Pierre Diernaz, Director of Electric Vehicles for Nissan in Europe, comments: “The facts speak for themselves. The rate of battery faults in our vehicles is negligible, even the most ardent critic cannot argue with that. “The battery technology is just part of our success story. With over 165,000 customers globally, it’s clear that we’re not the only people who are thrilled by the success of this state-of-the-art technology.” With just three main components – the on-board charger, inverter and motor – the Nissan LEAF is also 40 percent cheaper to maintain compared to petrol or diesel-powered alternatives. The Nissan LEAF launched over four years ago in 2010, as one of the first mass-market, pure-electric vehicles. It is now the best-selling electric vehicle in history, with over 165,000 LEAF vehicles sold globally, more than 35,000 of which have been sold in Europe; clocking up an impressive one billion kilometres worldwide. [© 3d-car-shows.com] ... http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2015/03/23/127476-nissan-leaf-battery-reliably-outperforms-cynics-critics-and-alternatives.html Nissan LEAF Battery Reliably Outperforms Cynics, Critics and Alternatives 23 March 2015 http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/business/nissan-sends-powerful-message-to-those-who-doubt-electric-vehicles-1-7171329 Nissan sends powerful message to those who doubt electric vehicles Fiona Thompson 23 March 2015 NISSAN’S Leaf batteries have shown they go the distance after less than 0.01 per cent of those installed in 35,000 cars have failed. Five years after the first models were built, data has shown 99.9per cent of the battery units made remain fit for purpose, with just three breaking during that time. It is said to be a fraction of the equivalent
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/25/2015 03:14 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: Their instrumentation is not very linear. When fully (100%) charged, the state of charge gauge indicates 12 bars. The 12th bar lasts for about 3 miles on residential/commercial (25mph - bar left. The first 36 miles took 8 bars, the last 37.5 miles took less than 4 bars. The state of charge algorithm also removes one of the bars every time the car is power cycled if more than half a bar is used. That is very annoying. I get out of the car with four bars remaining, and get back in with just three. It eventually recovers from this mistake, but it means I have to remember where it was when I turned the car off. The only thing I will say about the miles remaining meter is that it is inaccurate. The display is disabled when the number would go below four, so it wouldn’t even say zero when the pack was completely Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop on your energy flows. Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
I won't challenge your ideas of Li ion cell life here, but there is new information. We have gone around that recently on the list. Why Li ion batteries die. by Dr. Jeff Dahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs Dahn says that cells don't have to die, and I believe him. Rickard (EVTV) thinks he proved that LFP cells have a shelf life (deteriorate a little just sitting).. I am not sure his estimates are definitive. For the original work on high precision coulometry: http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html Aaron Smith is now the engineer responsible for cell life at Tesla. Chris Burns is building and selling HPC test equipment. http://www.novonix.ca/ Linden's Handbook of Batteries - Chapter 26. *http://tinyurl.com/narq9nw http://tinyurl.com/narq9nw* Best regards, MIke On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote: Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have made some improvements. Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements to the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168__ hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5 years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less if the car is efficient. Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty: http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan- announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the next five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price will remain volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity prices are generally lower, less volatile and costs generally go up more slowly. Some folks lock in a low electric cost by installing solar panels. It also helps that electric cars are more efficient than gas cars. At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up. AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate: By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I haven't heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that will happen someday. Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement (today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you need) is about $250 per KWh, which is actually a market leading low price. The price could come down further and/or the available capacity of the pack could go up by the time a typical LEAF pack would need to be replaced. If ROI is your primary consideration when purchasing a car then you would want to make a complete accounting, including all of the maintenance and repair expenses over whatever you consider to be the car's useful life. Plus fuel costs. I would put battery replacement in the maintenance/repair category. There isn't much else in that category for the LEAF since it obviously doesn't require a gas car's typical engine/transmission/fuel system/exhaust system parts-fest. With regen, the LEAF doesn't even use the brake pads much. The LEAF is widely available today, has a decent feature set, and an improved battery from at least 2013 forward. Electric vehicles offer important advantages, so I'm glad it's available along with other choices. It's the current best-selling BEV for a variety of reasons. Only you know what works for you. Cheers, -Jamie SNIP -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell michael.e.r...@gmail.com michael.e.r...@gmail.com -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
I think your point is clear, Willie2. You had a bad experience with Nissan and will never trust them again. That's understandable. So far you're happy with your Tesla, which is also understandable, especially given your range needs. I'm glad you found a better car for your purposes, and thanks for being an early adopter of new technology despite the risks. Even though it may not matter to you, it's worth noting generally that Nissan's product has improved since your experience. For that matter, Tesla's product has also improved over time. Cheers, -Jamie On 3/25/15 2:14 PM, Willie2 via EV wrote: On 03/25/2015 12:37 PM, Jamie K via EV wrote: Willie2, it sounds like the Model S is a great fit for your needs. If 70% of the initial LEAF range meant it lost nearly all its utility then you were really on the edge with that car. Given the battery improvements since then, I would expect that 2013+ LEAF packs will generally hold up longer than what you experienced. Time will tell. Maybe I failed to make my point. At this point, I don't care if/when Nissan can make a reliable battery. I now know that their warranty is worthless and they have lost me as a customer and potential customer. A potentially troublesome battery is not a deal breaker. IF the maker is honorable and can be relied on to fulfil his obligations. Nissan can not. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 25 Mar 2015 at 15:24, Willie2 via EV wrote: Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so. Probably not. A predictive fuel gauge for an EV is a tough nut to crack. Just ask the manufacturers who've been trying to solve the problem for years in forklifts and golf cars. There is no really good battery equivalent of a float in an ICEV's gas tank. Voltage? Nope, too unreliable and variable. Watt-hours? Better, but total available capacity depends on too many other factors, so all you know is that you've used x amp hours, not how many you really have left. When it comes to estimating remaining range, the problem gets even more difficult. Maybe Tesla does it better. I don't know, I've never driven one. But I can tell you that it's a non-trivial problem. It sounds like Nissan didn't solve it well, but I can't imagine what reason would they have to deliberately do it poorly. If they wanted to sabotage the car, there are many more effective ways to do so. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:00 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: When it comes to estimating remaining range, the problem gets even more difficult. I think that's where the real problems come in -- and they're the exact same problems for any other vehicle. Are the miles you're planning on driving from Sedona to Flagstaff (all uphill) or the other way 'round? Are the miles you're planning on driving cruising at a constant and sedate 45 MPH or are they all going to be on the drag strip? Are the miles you're planning on driving with an empty load, or are you about to hook up a trailer with a 500 gallon tank full of water? Personally, I'd be happy with a gauge that measured usable kWh capacity, with the actual numbers labeled. If the car leaves the factory with 50 kWh useable, the dial goes from zero to fifty. If you've used the car hard for a few years and you only get 30 kWh usable out of the pack, the dial still goes from zero to fifty but the needle never points past thirty. Couple that with a real-time display that shows you power output in kWh / mile, and most people will be able to intuitively answer any question they might think of. It's also a direct parallel with what people are already familiar with in ICE cars: a tank that is effectively calibrated in gallons (even if it's not labeled that way) and, in many cars, an instant MPG reading. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 9:11 AM, Michael Ross via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up. The undercharging and under discharging seems to be what Nissan does (at least with my 2011 leaf). I consider fully discharged when I have driven a few miles of commercial/residential (25mph - 35mph) streets past where it shuts off the instrumentation in an attempt to make the driver think the pack is dead. Charging from this point to what the instrumentation indicates is 100% charged (12 bars) takes a little less than 5 hours with the 3.3KW charger. That says they use about 16KWH (~5 hours * 3.3KW - something for charger inefficiency) of the pack’s total capacity. The total capacity gauge now has 11 of 12 bars remaining, meaning the original 24KWH pack is now about 22KWH. 6KWH of the current 22KWH (about 25%) is not being used. Since I charge to 80% normally, I only charge to 13KWH (about 60%). I usually use about 80% of this according to their instrumentation. I’ve had the car for 44 months and have 40,000 miles on it. Their instrumentation is not very linear. When fully (100%) charged, the state of charge gauge indicates 12 bars. The 12th bar lasts for about 3 miles on residential/commercial (25mph - 45mph) streets. The 11th bar lasts for another 4.5 or maybe 5 miles. The 10th bar last at most 2.5 miles. A week ago, I charged to 100% (12 bars) and drove to a destination 36 miles away. I made sure to limit the speed to 50MPH or less even when the legal limits were higher. I also did not use the climate control. I reached my destination about a mile past losing the 5th bar (total of 8 bars consumed — 4 left). I drove back home using the same driving style on the same level route with a slight detour for lunch. When I got home 37.5 miles later, I still had some of the last bar left. The first 36 miles took 8 bars, the last 37.5 miles took less than 4 bars. The state of charge algorithm also removes one of the bars every time the car is power cycled if more than half a bar is used. That is very annoying. I get out of the car with four bars remaining, and get back in with just three. It eventually recovers from this mistake, but it means I have to remember where it was when I turned the car off. The only thing I will say about the miles remaining meter is that it is inaccurate. The display is disabled when the number would go below four, so it wouldn’t even say zero when the pack was completely dead. Ed ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
Ben, I think the problem may be more subtle than you describe. Unless the manufacturer completely solves the problem of describing remaining capacity, the user won't have a gauge that reads 30 kWh of remaining capacity. The user will be faced with a gauge that still reads 50 kWh, without knowing where the bottom is. Is empty 0, or 10, or 30? How do you describe the remaining capacity without completely draining the battery (and potentially damaging the cells a little bit more)? Mike On March 25, 2015 3:34:02 PM MDT, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:00 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: When it comes to estimating remaining range, the problem gets even more difficult. I think that's where the real problems come in -- and they're the exact same problems for any other vehicle. Are the miles you're planning on driving from Sedona to Flagstaff (all uphill) or the other way 'round? Are the miles you're planning on driving cruising at a constant and sedate 45 MPH or are they all going to be on the drag strip? Are the miles you're planning on driving with an empty load, or are you about to hook up a trailer with a 500 gallon tank full of water? Personally, I'd be happy with a gauge that measured usable kWh capacity, with the actual numbers labeled. If the car leaves the factory with 50 kWh useable, the dial goes from zero to fifty. If you've used the car hard for a few years and you only get 30 kWh usable out of the pack, the dial still goes from zero to fifty but the needle never points past thirty. Couple that with a real-time display that shows you power output in kWh / mile, and most people will be able to intuitively answer any question they might think of. It's also a direct parallel with what people are already familiar with in ICE cars: a tank that is effectively calibrated in gallons (even if it's not labeled that way) and, in many cars, an instant MPG reading. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 03/25/2015 08:07 PM, Ed Blackmond via EV wrote: On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:43 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop on your energy flows. There is something referred to as a GIDometer by people on the mynissianleaf forum. I don’t think it is an android app though. I no longer lurk on mynissanleaf so the following may have some errors. I did buy a gidometer and found it quite an improvement on the standard instrumentation. Providing a linear and probably accurate representation of state of charge. I believe the guy behind the gidometer went on to develop Leaf Spy: http://is.gd/EDJ2A5 The guy's name is Gideon or somesuch. That is the origin of the name gids for the units that represent SOC in the Leaf's software. Resolution is a bit more than 200 which is vastly better than the 12 bars Nissan presents. I further believe I saw discussion on the imiev forum: http://myimiev.com/forum/ where the Gideon guy was collaborating with the author of the Canion app. Suggesting improvements or changes. The gidometer is a small display with a couple of buttons that is connected via wire to a OBD connector. Both Leaf Spy and Canion are Android apps that read, via bluetooth, a OBD reader. I believe both apps can use the same type of OBD/bluetooth reader. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On Mar 25, 2015, at 2:43 PM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Ed, are you aware of the Android app Leaf Spy (I think is the name)? I don't have any experience with it but I have a similar thing for my imiev. With a $10-$60 OBD reader, it should give you the straight scoop on your energy flows. There is something referred to as a GIDometer by people on the mynissianleaf forum. I don’t think it is an android app though. Have you ever wondered WHY the Leaf's instrumentation is so crappy? It seems to me that they must have intentionally made it so. I suspect that is mostly because it is a hard thing to get right and they started with what I consider the wrong goal. Their marketing people told them range anxiety was a big issue, so they thought they needed to come up with a single number that indicated how much further the car could go. It is impossible to know that. Given that the capacity is so low (compared to the capacity of a typical tank of gasoline) there isn’t much room for error. On my old ICE vehicle, the fuel gauge would read empty and the warning light would start to flicker when there was about 3 gallons left in the 15 gallon tank. The warning light would come on solid somewhere around 2.5 to 1.5 gallons left. The Leaf battery pack with a full charge is about the equivalent of a Nissan Versa (essentially the same vehicle with an ICE) with about a 2.5 gallon tank. The Versa’s fuel gauge would probably read empty when it had the equivalent range of a fully charged Leaf. The best range gauge I ever saw was in my Honda EVPlus. It consisted of a horizontal bar chart with 0 on the left and 120 miles on the right. The bar would display in yellow how far the car could go the way it was being driven right now. Press on the accelerator hard, the bar would move to the left towards zero. Ease off it would move to the right towards 120. Go up hill, the bar would move to the left, Go down hill, it would move to the right. There was a green extension to the yellow bar indicating how far the car could go when driven in its most efficient manner. It was an interesting game attempting to drive so the yellow bar covered as much of the green bar as possible. The Honda EVPlus had much better range than the Nissan Leaf. When I was forced to give it back after six years and 60,000 miles, I could still drive more than 100 miles on a charge. The best I have ever been able to do with my Leaf was 81 miles. The Leaf is a much bigger car and nicer in many respects. Ed ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: LEAF EV Pack Reliability Outperforms Cynics Critics (?)
On 3/25/15 2:48 PM, Michael Ross wrote: I won't challenge your ideas of Li ion cell life here, but there is new information. We have gone around that recently on the list. Why Li ion batteries die. by Dr. Jeff Dahn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs Dahn says that cells don't have to die, and I believe him. Thanks again for the video link from Oct 31, 2013. In it Dahn said, theoretically, if CE=1 (charge=discharge) the cell will last forever. But more realistically he talked about efforts to improve cell life by using additives to incrementally reduce coulombic inefficiency. His measurement techniques allow quick experiments to find the most effective combinations of additives. Clever approach. I may have missed the part where he made a claim for actual infinite battery life, but he did show evidence of how different chemical additives measurably improve the life of the cells, by apparently reducing parasitic reactions that can cause a premature drop in battery performance due to plating. That aligns with speculation about how Nissan may have progressively adjusted their battery chemistry in their newer packs, in attempts to mitigate premature degradation seen in earlier packs in hot climates. Cheers, -Jamie Rickard (EVTV) thinks he proved that LFP cells have a shelf life (deteriorate a little just sitting).. I am not sure his estimates are definitive. For the original work on high precision coulometry: http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html Aaron Smith is now the engineer responsible for cell life at Tesla. Chris Burns is building and selling HPC test equipment. http://www.novonix.ca/ Linden's Handbook of Batteries - Chapter 26. *http://tinyurl.com/narq9nw* * * Best regards, MIke * * On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Jamie K via EV ev@lists.evdl.org mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On 3/25/15 10:11 AM, Michael Ross wrote: Yes, the severe problem is in hot climates. So much of Europe is not going to see the issue. Though some may. Put a charged Leaf in a garage on a rock in Greece or Spain, let it heat up good in the summer sun and you will see some deterioration like in AZ. Unless they have made some improvements. Casual speculation aside, yes, they have made ongoing improvements to the LEAF battery pack. It's worth reading this link: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168hilit=+battery+update#p374490 http://www.mynissanleaf.com/__viewtopic.php?f=4t=17168__hilit=+battery+update#p374490 Five year warranty on a pack is not really very good. If you get to 5 years, do they honor it further out to 60K? No, or they would just have a 60K warranty. So it is 5 years or less if one drives 60K. Here in the US 60k miles might use up $6000 in fuel on a similar size ICE car, less if the car is efficient. Here is Nissan's information on the battery warranty: http://nissannews.com/en-US/__nissan/usa/releases/nissan-__announces-battery-replacement-__program-for-leaf http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/nissan-announces-battery-replacement-program-for-leaf It's hard to predict what a gas car's fuel cost will be over the next five years in the USA, but it's a fair guess that the price will remain volatile and trend upwards, on average. Electricity prices are generally lower, less volatile and costs generally go up more slowly. Some folks lock in a low electric cost by installing solar panels. It also helps that electric cars are more efficient than gas cars. At ~60 miles to a charge, not much driving gets done, and a Leaf yields a poor payback against gas prices in the US if the battery pack makes trouble. If I had to buy a $5500 pack and some unknown labor every 5 years that would really suck. I expect cars to last 10+ years. According to my understanding of Li ion cells, it is possible to select cells, make packs and manage them for nearly unlimited life with no loss of capacity. You have to cool them, oversize them, undercharge them, and under discharge them. Not many EV manufacturers on that path yet. Here is hoping the new testing catches on and they all wise up. AFAIK there are two ways that lithium batteries deteriorate: By use (cycles) and by calendar life. Managing charge levels and temperature helps optimize battery life within those limits. I haven't heard of an infinite life lithium battery, but maybe that will happen someday. Meanwhile a roughly 24kWh battery at $6K or less for replacement (today's cost) after 5-10 years (depending on how much range you need) is about $250 per KWh, which is actually a market leading low price. The price could come
