Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

I think perhaps he is thinking about a VW Transporter (i.e. Kombi, Microbus), 
although even the later models got up over 3,000 lbs


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 22, 2021 6:37 PM, "paul dove via EV"  wrote:

> https://www.falconclub.com/1961-2/1961-econoline 
> 3600 to 4300 gvw 
> 
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 8:31 PM, Lawrence Rhodes 
>  wrote:
> 
> One thing I noticed about 60's vans were they weighed between 2,000 and 2,800 
> pounds. You can't
> find them that light today. Not even close. Of course your knees were the 
> bumper. Lawrence Rhodes
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV - shocking!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> > > Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
> > > epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it starts
> > > to break down from UV damage.  ...
>
> Shocking Lesson:  I was preparing to show my solar prius one day and used a 
> damp cloth and water to wipe the dust off the 11 solar panels.  At first I 
> felt a slight tingling here and there and then went back to the same panel 
> and got a good shock.
>
> My panels are fiberglass composite so that they bend slightly and were all 
> connected in series to get to 250 VDC for directly charging the Prius 
> battery.  After several years (and this event) one could see water incursion, 
> discoloration and corrosion that had crept into the solar cell layer 
> (sandwiched between the fiberglass substrate and the polymer sealing top 
> layer..
>
> The depth of the edge incursion was as high as 1/2 inch in some edges.
> The problem was obvious!  And I had seen it coming  in fact, I know that I 
> did an initial poor quality sealing job, but figured I'd get back to it some 
> day to do it right.  Never did. until I scraped the car 14 years later
>
> See image of solar cells: about 50% down this page:
> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[paul dove via EV]

Well, Ralph Nader comes to mind. He is responsible for most of our auto safety 
laws.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 5:54 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
 wrote:

It’s always easy to blame it on lawyers, and while I’m not one, lawyers have 
nothing to do with auto manufacturers needing to meet regulatory standards, 
except for helping them interpret the requirements.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:58 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately it's not really the automakers fault, it's the lawyers.
> 
> Production vehicles have to meet modern safety standards and I doubt you 
> could meet those standards using lightweight (read fragile) materials, not 
> without incuring a great deal of extra costs.
> 
> Even if you went with hand-laid carbon-fiber, imagine what would happen to it 
> if it got hit broadside by a full size pickup.
> 
> 
>> 
>> But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
>> imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that their
>> customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel. And in fact,
>> just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
>> bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

Peter VanDerWal via EV wrote:

Unfortunately it's not really the automakers fault, it's the lawyers.


I don't think we can pin the blame on anyone in particular. We've simply 
created an inept and unsustainable system -- all of us!


Consider the game of Monopoly. You and your friends may all be 
wonderful, caring people. But if you play the game by the rules, you all 
turn into ruthless greedy villains. To win, you bankrupt everyone else! 
("Sorry to take your last dollar and evict you from home, mom").


The American love affair with the car has had an enormous cost; huge 
numbers of deaths and injuries, environmental damage, financing 
dictators the world over, etc. As a society, we still aren't willing to 
objectively consider alternatives. Like everything else, it's an 
emotional political issue.



Production vehicles have to meet modern safety standards and I doubt
you could meet those standards using lightweight (read fragile) materials
not without incuring a great deal of extra costs.

Even if you went with hand-laid carbon-fiber, imagine what would happen to
it if it got hit broadside by a full size pickup.


I think you're underestimating the benefits of good design. Two vehicles 
of identical weight can have drastic differences in their safety. Do you 
think a car gets a 5-star crash rating just because it's heavy? Of 
course not! The car is safer because one hell of a lot of effort and 
testing went into making it safer!


Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

paul dove via EV wrote:

Yea right! 1960 pickup weighed 4000 lbs on average. A 2021 pickup weighs
4500 lbs. The technology advancements is what makes this possible


References, please? Exactly what pickups are you referring to?

Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[paul dove via EV]

https://www.falconclub.com/1961-2/1961-econoline/ 
3600 to 4300 gvw 



Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 8:31 PM, Lawrence Rhodes 
 wrote:

One thing I noticed about 60's vans were they weighed between 2,000 and 2,800 
pounds. You can't find them that light today. Not even close. Of course your 
knees were the bumper. Lawrence Rhodes






On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 5:07:11 PM PDT, paul dove  
wrote: 





Yea right! 1960 pickup weighed 4000 lbs on average. A 2021 pickup weighs 4500 
lbs.  the technology advancements is what makes this possible 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 6:41 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:
>  Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is what 
>people want. Unless they have to pay the full cost of ownership and then again 
>you will be able to buy a Hummer for next to nothing. That is what I call a 
>stranded asset. Lawrence Rhodes 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

1961 Ford Econoline Pickup Dimensional Specs. Wheelbase – 90.0in; Width – 75.0 
in; Height – 76.9 in; Curb Weight – 2,500 lbs. To learn more about the Ford
Curb Weight. Lawrence Rhodes






On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 6:37:48 PM PDT, paul dove  
wrote: 





https://www.falconclub.com/1961-2/1961-econoline/ 

3600 to 4300 gvw 




Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 8:31 PM, Lawrence Rhodes 
 wrote:
> One thing I noticed about 60's vans were they weighed between 2,000 and 2,800 
> pounds. You can't find them that light today. Not even close. Of course your 
> knees were the bumper. Lawrence Rhodes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 5:07:11 PM PDT, paul dove  
> wrote: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yea right! 1960 pickup weighed 4000 lbs on average. A 2021 pickup weighs 4500 
> lbs.  the technology advancements is what makes this possible 
> 
> 
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> 
> On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 6:41 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>  wrote:
>>  Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is 
>>what people want. Unless they have to pay the full cost of ownership and then 
>>again you will be able to buy a Hummer for next to nothing. That is what I 
>>call a stranded asset. Lawrence Rhodes 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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>>> 
> 
>> 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

It’s always easy to blame it on lawyers, and while I’m not one, lawyers have 
nothing to do with auto manufacturers needing to meet regulatory standards, 
except for helping them interpret the requirements.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On Apr 22, 2021, at 2:58 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately it's not really the automakers fault, it's the lawyers.
> 
> Production vehicles have to meet modern safety standards and I doubt you 
> could meet those standards using lightweight (read fragile) materials, not 
> without incuring a great deal of extra costs.
> 
> Even if you went with hand-laid carbon-fiber, imagine what would happen to it 
> if it got hit broadside by a full size pickup.
> 
> 
>> 
>> But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
>> imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that their
>> customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel. And in fact,
>> just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
>> bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[paul dove via EV]

Yea right! 1960 pickup weighed 4000 lbs on average. A 2021 pickup weighs 4500 
lbs.  the technology advancements is what makes this possible 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 6:41 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:

 Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is what 
people want. Unless they have to pay the full cost of ownership and then again 
you will be able to buy a Hummer for next to nothing. That is what I call a 
stranded asset. Lawrence Rhodes 



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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

One thing I noticed about 60's vans were they weighed between 2,000 and 2,800 
pounds. You can't find them that light today. Not even close. Of course your 
knees were the bumper. Lawrence Rhodes






On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 5:07:11 PM PDT, paul dove  
wrote: 





Yea right! 1960 pickup weighed 4000 lbs on average. A 2021 pickup weighs 4500 
lbs.  the technology advancements is what makes this possible 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone

On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 6:41 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 wrote:
>  Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is what 
>people want. Unless they have to pay the full cost of ownership and then again 
>you will be able to buy a Hummer for next to nothing. That is what I call a 
>stranded asset. Lawrence Rhodes 
> 
> 
> 
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>> 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels on EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

 Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is what 
people want. Unless they have to pay the full cost of ownership and then again 
you will be able to buy a Hummer for next to nothing. That is what I call a 
stranded asset. Lawrence Rhodes 



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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

A large part of that depreciation is the fact that the second customer is not 
going to get the Tax incentive, so that means that anyone with half a brain 
will automatically deduct the tax rebate from the original cost BEFORE they 
figure in depreciation.

For those EVs that have used up their rebate eligibility, most of the 
automakers are heavily discounting their vehicles to make up for it.

When you can buy a brand new Chevy Bolt for $12-$13,000 off sticker price, who 
is going to buy a used one for even $15,000 less than the original sticker 
price?

My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 22, 2021 10:09 AM, "EVDL Administrator via EV"  wrote:

> Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs
> should give us pause. That tells us what value vehicle customers actually
> attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement. Tesla is a
> notable outlier, however.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Unless you have disabled/removed the OnStar radio, they have ALL of the data 
they want fed to them continuously.

Even if you don't pay for the OnStar package, the radio is still active and 
uploading data to OnStar.  I don't pay for onstar, but I used to use the 
Volt-stats website (it's shutting down in a couple days) and it has all kinds 
of information about my car, fuel use, electricity consumption, etc.


My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key

April 22, 2021 2:16 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:

>> A used vehicle does not generally have that,
> 
> The voltec warranty on my used chevy Volt was still valid through the
> original 150,000 miles and 8 years.
> 
> I bought it 3 years old coming off lease from a dealer and that gives
> a good sense of reliability as any original issues and warranty
> problems were behind it. Guy wanted $14,000, I got it for $12,500 .
> A great deal in my opinion
> 
> And that for the best EV ever made... ;-)
> 
> At the 7 year 6 mo point it gave an error signal to Check HV charging
> system and would not charge. I took it to dealer for first time and
> they did a code-load or something that solved it at no cost. I am
> convinced it was a pre-programmed fault included in the original code
> to give GM a chance to read the condition of the car as design
> feedback. Otherwise, since it had never been back to the dealier in 5
> years, the GM system had never seen the car and had no data on its
> condition..
> 
> bob.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 2:31 PM Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
> 
>> On 04/22/2021 10:09, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
>> Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs
>> should give us pause. That tells us what value vehicle customers actually
>> attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement. Tesla is a
>> notable outlier, however.
>> 
>> This i just my opinion, but a new vehicle generally has a warrantee that
>> will cover a battery (OK, some better than others). A used vehicle does
>> not generally have that, and a battery replacement is EXPENSIVE. Again,
>> my opinion, but after range anxiety, battery replacement cost is likely
>> the #2 public issue with EVs - particularly a used one.
>> 
>> They want to sit up high and not have to bend down to get in the
>> vehicle.
>> Citation needed. This sounds to me like a personal anecdote.
>> 
>> I'm 62 as of a few days ago and I can certainly agree with that
>> statement. When I get into my wife's Toyota Corolla, it is much harder
>> to fold myself in half and crawl down to get into it, than with a taller
>> vehicle. My primary vehicle is a RAM 2500 4x4 pickup which is sort of
>> the other direction, you have to step up to get in, but the door is far
>> larger so it is MUCH easier. And before someone asks, yes, I do NEED
>> and use the large heavy duty 4x4 vehicle on a somewhat regular basis.
>> 
>> --
>> 73
>> -
>> Jim Walls - K6CCC
>> j...@k6ccc.org
>> Ofc: 818-548-4804
>> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc
>> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Dan Baker via EV]

My first EV - my Firefly is  on it's 10th year of 100% solar power:
http://www.evalbum.com/3432
Yes you can make a solar EV, even cheaply.  But don't expect it to go 60
mph for hours.  A solar car is pretty impractical by most standards, even
my boat would be impractical if I didn;t run it on my small 1.5 mile long
lake.  But it does work very well for the application, easily the most
reliable boat I have owned and can't be beat for fishing off or
maneuverability along the rocky shore.  Maybe someday panels will improve
enough to power a regular road vehicle for some distance for the
average joe.  The solar cars seen online today simply do not expose the
math of solar hours vs distance potentially covered.   But maybe there
should be some kind of standard measure in case something actually ever
does prove useful?  Or does something like that exist?  Something like
miles per solar hour?

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 6:58 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Unfortunately it's not really the automakers fault, it's the lawyers.
>
> Production vehicles have to meet modern safety standards and I doubt you
> could meet those standards using lightweight (read fragile) materials, not
> without incuring a great deal of extra costs.
>
> Even if you went with hand-laid carbon-fiber, imagine what would happen to
> it if it got hit broadside by a full size pickup.
>
>
> >
> > But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
> > imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that
> their
> > customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel. And in fact,
> > just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
> > bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Unfortunately it's not really the automakers fault, it's the lawyers.

Production vehicles have to meet modern safety standards and I doubt you could 
meet those standards using lightweight (read fragile) materials, not without 
incuring a great deal of extra costs.

Even if you went with hand-laid carbon-fiber, imagine what would happen to it 
if it got hit broadside by a full size pickup.


> 
> But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
> imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that their
> customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel. And in fact,
> just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
> bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> A used vehicle does  not generally have that,

The voltec warranty on my used chevy Volt was still valid through the
original 150,000 miles and 8 years.

I bought it 3 years old coming off lease from a dealer and that gives
a good sense of reliability as any original issues and warranty
problems were behind it.  Guy wanted $14,000, I got it for $12,500 .
A great deal in my opinion

And that for the best EV ever made...  ;-)

At the 7 year 6 mo point it gave an error signal to Check HV charging
system and would not charge.  I took it to dealer for first time and
they did a  code-load or something that solved it at no cost.  I am
convinced it was a pre-programmed fault included in the original code
to give GM a chance to read the condition of the car as design
feedback.  Otherwise, since it had never been back to the dealier in 5
years, the GM system had never seen the car and had no data on its
condition..


bob.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 2:31 PM Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
>
> On 04/22/2021 10:09, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs
> > should give us pause.  That tells us what value vehicle customers actually
> > attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement.  Tesla is a
> > notable outlier, however.
>
> This i just my opinion, but a new vehicle generally has a warrantee that
> will cover a battery (OK, some better than others).  A used vehicle does
> not generally have that, and a battery replacement is EXPENSIVE.  Again,
> my opinion, but after range anxiety, battery replacement cost is likely
> the #2 public issue with EVs - particularly a used one.
>
> >> They want to sit up high and not have to bend down to get in the
> >> vehicle.
> > Citation needed.  This sounds to me like a personal anecdote.
> >
>
> I'm 62 as of a few days ago and I can certainly agree with that
> statement.  When I get into my wife's Toyota Corolla, it is much harder
> to fold myself in half and crawl down to get into it, than with a taller
> vehicle.  My primary vehicle is a RAM 2500 4x4 pickup which is sort of
> the other direction, you have to step up to get in, but the door is far
> larger so it is MUCH easier.  And before someone asks, yes, I do NEED
> and use the large heavy duty 4x4 vehicle on a somewhat regular basis.
>
> --
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> Ofc:  818-548-4804
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 04/22/2021 10:09, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs
should give us pause.  That tells us what value vehicle customers actually
attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement.  Tesla is a
notable outlier, however.


This i just my opinion, but a new vehicle generally has a warrantee that 
will cover a battery (OK, some better than others).  A used vehicle does 
not generally have that, and a battery replacement is EXPENSIVE.  Again, 
my opinion, but after range anxiety, battery replacement cost is likely 
the #2 public issue with EVs - particularly a used one.



They want to sit up high and not have to bend down to get in the
vehicle.

Citation needed.  This sounds to me like a personal anecdote.



I'm 62 as of a few days ago and I can certainly agree with that 
statement.  When I get into my wife's Toyota Corolla, it is much harder 
to fold myself in half and crawl down to get into it, than with a taller 
vehicle.  My primary vehicle is a RAM 2500 4x4 pickup which is sort of 
the other direction, you have to step up to get in, but the door is far 
larger so it is MUCH easier.  And before someone asks, yes, I do NEED 
and use the large heavy duty 4x4 vehicle on a somewhat regular basis.


--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 22 Apr 2021 at 12:52, paul dove via EV wrote:

> Most people buy used cars not new. 

It would be correct to say that more used than new cars are sold.  In 2018 
in the US, 40.42 million used vehicles were sold, compared to 17.21 million 
new ones.  So, 70% of sales were used vehicles that year.

I suspect, but would have to research to make sure, that the reason for 
rising interest in used vehicles is the rising price of new ones (last I 
heard averaging over $36k).  Low income folks and those just starting out 
used to buy cheap small cars, but those mostly aren't offered any more.  
Hence used.  That drives up used car demand and prices.  They can't win.

Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs 
should give us pause.  That tells us what value vehicle customers actually 
attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement.  Tesla is a 
notable outlier, however.

> People who buy new cars mostly don't care about cost. 

It's not the most frequently cited concern, but according to Statista's 
Global Consumer Survey 2018, 44% of vehicle buyers say that a low price is 
their most important consideration.  In general, this means "low payments," 
as opposed to the actual life-of-loan-or-lease cost.

> Most people who buy new cars are over 50. 

According to Hedges Company, "People ages 25-54 purchase the most new 
vehicles, with SUV buyers tending to skew a bit older."

> They want to sit up high and not have to bend down to get in the
> vehicle. 

Citation needed.  This sounds to me like a personal anecdote.

> Maybe manufacturers need to ask the customer what they want which they
> don´t. 

You'd be surprised.  Vehicle design is actually quite research-driven.  
Automakers routinely convene focus groups to evaluate their proposed new 
features.

At the same time, the automakers don't let consumer preference stand in 
their way of maximizing profit.  Otherwise their stockholders would crucify 
them.  To an instittuional investor, nothing, for sure not environmental 
responsibility, is more important than the blessed rate of return.

> Read the book the car that could for a better understanding or
> corporate car manufacturing. 

Shnayerson's The Car that Could is a great tale, if you're interested in the 
story of the GM EV1.  It was published 25 years ago.  I think it's now out 
of print, but used copies are available.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[paul dove via EV]

Most people buy used cars not new. People who buy new cars mostly don’t care 
about cost. Most people who buy new cars are over 50. They want to sit up high 
and not have to bend down to get in the vehicle. Cars up high like the Kia Soul 
sell just fine. Maybe manufacturers need to ask the customer what they want 
which they don’t. Read the book the car that could for a better understanding 
or corporate car manufacturing.


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, April 21, 2021, 11:38 PM, -Phil-  wrote:

In general, People don't seem to give a shit about fuel economy (off this list, 
of course).  People keep buying large SUVs and pickups to go sit in traffic in. 
 The best selling car in the US since 1981 is a truck; the Ford F150.   There 
have been plenty of small cars offered over the years.  Remember when Honda 
brought the Civic into the US in '76, (I think it was called the CVCC back 
then).  It was 1500 lbs and 148" long when introduced.  Each year they made it 
longer and heavier, now it's almost exactly TWICE the curb weight and 178" long!
Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is what 
people want.




On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:20 PM paul dove  wrote:

The Japanese subsidized exports so they could sell them cheap! 


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Wednesday, April 21, 2021, 8:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:

On 21 Apr 2021 at 17:50, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> Complain all you want, but unless you fire up your own company and start
> selling a compelling solution that people want it doesn't matter.  "They" sure
> aren't!

Funny, that's exactly how the Japanese automakers got their feet in the door 
here in the 1970s.  Is the US's best selling sedan today a Chevy or Ford?  
No it is not.  It's a Toyota.  That would have been unimaginable in 1965.

When the middle eastern oil producers shut off the spigot in 1973, what high 
MPG cars was Detroit building?  Ford Pintos and Chevy Vegas.  If you're not 
familiar with them, look them up.  You'll understand what happened next.

Toyota and Nissan/Datsun had decades of experience building good, reliable, 
small, fuel efficient cars.  Their dealers were tacking hundreds of dollars 
in additional profit onto their cars' MSRP, bluntly listed on the window 
stickers as "ADM" (Additional Dealer Markup).  Nevertheless, as each car 
rolled off the transport, the sales manager rang up the next eager buyer on 
the waiting list.

They also advertised them liberally.  For example, Nissan put up billboards 
on major highways reading "Datsun Saves - about a gallon a day."

Now the major automakers - this time including the Japanese - have left the 
bottom end of the market wide open.  No more are they offering small, 
efficient, low-cost vehicles to capture brand loyalty from young people in 
their first jobs.

So who will fill that gap?  I expect that Chinese and Indian automakers will 
repeat the Japanese manufacturers' 1970s success, with both EVs and small 
ICEVs.  If they can deliver decent quality vehicles like the Japanese did 
back then, they will own a piece of the market - one that could easily grow 
in the future.

Of course the US could also follow the European model, and put a thumb on 
the scale for EVs and fuel efficient ICEVs through legislation and taxes.  
But we probably won't.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
    Our jobs are not supposed to bring us enlightenment. They are
    supposed to bring us money and stolen office supplies.  If we 
    are going to perform any ritual at work, let it be to invite 
    a demon into the sacred circle to smite our enemy, Liz in 
    Human Resources.

                                                  - Jessa Crispin
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Willie via EV]

On 4/21/21 11:37 PM, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:


Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is
what people want.


David addressed this rather well.  To an extent. It is a societal 
problem that advertising targets are so easily and illogically swayed. 
I contend that the root cause is a low average level of education. 
Especially lacking in both critical thinking and physics.  It was only 
after my college years that I became aware that the general populace had 
zero formal education in physics.  Most know nothing of conservation of 
energy and energy flows.  That is reflected directly in poor driving 
habits and poor vehicle selection.


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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

(-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Complain all you want, but unless you fire up your own company and start
selling a compelling solution that people want it doesn't matter.  "They"
sure aren't!


I've tried, and I agree. People won't buy what you want to sell; they 
buy what THEY want. It's all ego and emotion.



We aren't making any money yet, but at least we are selling vehicles people
want, and they are about as green as you can get while still solving the
requirements.


I applaud your efforts, and it looks like you have a good niche product. 
For the right customer, it would be a good delivery van. But to me, it's 
a bit like saying the HummVee wasn't big enough; here's something even 
bigger!


Lee Hart
--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

In general, People don't seem to give a shit about fuel economy (off this
list, of course).  People keep buying large SUVs and pickups to go sit in
traffic in.  The best selling car in the US since 1981 is a truck; the Ford
F150.   There have been plenty of small cars offered over the years.
Remember when Honda brought the Civic into the US in '76, (I think it was
called the CVCC back then).  It was 1500 lbs and 148" long when
introduced.  Each year they made it longer and heavier, now it's almost
exactly TWICE the curb weight and 178" long!

Each year cars get bigger, taller, and heavier.  That's because that is
what people want.




On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 8:20 PM paul dove  wrote:

> The Japanese subsidized exports so they could sell them cheap!
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
>
> On Wednesday, April 21, 2021, 8:43 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
> On 21 Apr 2021 at 17:50, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Complain all you want, but unless you fire up your own company and start
> > selling a compelling solution that people want it doesn't matter.
> "They" sure
> > aren't!
>
> Funny, that's exactly how the Japanese automakers got their feet in the
> door
> here in the 1970s.  Is the US's best selling sedan today a Chevy or Ford?
> No it is not.  It's a Toyota.  That would have been unimaginable in 1965.
>
> When the middle eastern oil producers shut off the spigot in 1973, what
> high
> MPG cars was Detroit building?  Ford Pintos and Chevy Vegas.  If you're
> not
> familiar with them, look them up.  You'll understand what happened next.
>
> Toyota and Nissan/Datsun had decades of experience building good,
> reliable,
> small, fuel efficient cars.  Their dealers were tacking hundreds of
> dollars
> in additional profit onto their cars' MSRP, bluntly listed on the window
> stickers as "ADM" (Additional Dealer Markup).  Nevertheless, as each car
> rolled off the transport, the sales manager rang up the next eager buyer
> on
> the waiting list.
>
> They also advertised them liberally.  For example, Nissan put up
> billboards
> on major highways reading "Datsun Saves - about a gallon a day."
>
> Now the major automakers - this time including the Japanese - have left
> the
> bottom end of the market wide open.  No more are they offering small,
> efficient, low-cost vehicles to capture brand loyalty from young people in
> their first jobs.
>
> So who will fill that gap?  I expect that Chinese and Indian automakers
> will
> repeat the Japanese manufacturers' 1970s success, with both EVs and small
> ICEVs.  If they can deliver decent quality vehicles like the Japanese did
> back then, they will own a piece of the market - one that could easily
> grow
> in the future.
>
> Of course the US could also follow the European model, and put a thumb on
> the scale for EVs and fuel efficient ICEVs through legislation and taxes.
> But we probably won't.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Our jobs are not supposed to bring us enlightenment. They are
> supposed to bring us money and stolen office supplies.  If we
> are going to perform any ritual at work, let it be to invite
> a demon into the sacred circle to smite our enemy, Liz in
> Human Resources.
>
>   - Jessa Crispin
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Apr 2021 at 17:50, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> Complain all you want, but unless you fire up your own company and start
> selling a compelling solution that people want it doesn't matter.  "They" sure
> aren't!

Funny, that's exactly how the Japanese automakers got their feet in the door 
here in the 1970s.  Is the US's best selling sedan today a Chevy or Ford?  
No it is not.  It's a Toyota.  That would have been unimaginable in 1965.

When the middle eastern oil producers shut off the spigot in 1973, what high 
MPG cars was Detroit building?  Ford Pintos and Chevy Vegas.  If you're not 
familiar with them, look them up.  You'll understand what happened next.

Toyota and Nissan/Datsun had decades of experience building good, reliable, 
small, fuel efficient cars.  Their dealers were tacking hundreds of dollars 
in additional profit onto their cars' MSRP, bluntly listed on the window 
stickers as "ADM" (Additional Dealer Markup).  Nevertheless, as each car 
rolled off the transport, the sales manager rang up the next eager buyer on 
the waiting list.

They also advertised them liberally.  For example, Nissan put up billboards 
on major highways reading "Datsun Saves - about a gallon a day."

Now the major automakers - this time including the Japanese - have left the 
bottom end of the market wide open.  No more are they offering small, 
efficient, low-cost vehicles to capture brand loyalty from young people in 
their first jobs.

So who will fill that gap?  I expect that Chinese and Indian automakers will 
repeat the Japanese manufacturers' 1970s success, with both EVs and small 
ICEVs.  If they can deliver decent quality vehicles like the Japanese did 
back then, they will own a piece of the market - one that could easily grow 
in the future.

Of course the US could also follow the European model, and put a thumb on 
the scale for EVs and fuel efficient ICEVs through legislation and taxes.  
But we probably won't.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Our jobs are not supposed to bring us enlightenment. They are
 supposed to bring us money and stolen office supplies.  If we 
 are going to perform any ritual at work, let it be to invite 
 a demon into the sacred circle to smite our enemy, Liz in 
 Human Resources.

   - Jessa Crispin
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Complain all you want, but unless you fire up your own company and start
selling a compelling solution that people want it doesn't matter.  "They"
sure aren't!

We aren't making any money yet, but at least we are selling vehicles people
want, and they are about as green as you can get while still solving the
requirements.

https://maxwellvehicles.com/

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 5:45 PM EVDL Administrator  wrote:

> On 21 Apr 2021 at 13:09, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Most of the big automakers can't even sell normal sedans anymore, let
> alone a
> > super-lightweight "city" car.  Just not going to happen.
>
> And yet, somehow Volkswagen sold over 21 million Beetles.  They sold
> enough
> of them to prosper even when Detroit was building gigantic, gas-guzzling,
> 12mpg V8 powered sedans.  They sold them even in the face of dire warnings
> about how unsafe they were in collisions with those gas-guzzlers.
>
> The real reason that automakers don't sell small cars now is that they
> don't
> advertise them.  The only vehicles they advertise are pickup trucks, SUVs,
> and crossovers.
>
> They WANT small vehicles to fail, because they make less profit on them.
>
> In the 1960s and into the 1970s, a large part of the reason that
> Volkswagen
> sold Beetles in an America obsessed with "bigness" was that they
> advertised
> them creatively, via a brilliant and whimsical advertising campaign
> created
> by Doyle Dane Bernbach.
>
> http://designbeep.com/2011/12/21/remembering-the-beetle-30-volkswagen-ads-
> from-the-1960s/
> 
>
> https://swipefile.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/nobodys-perfect-vw-ad.jpg
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  It is well known (Potts, 2014; Catcher, 2014) that the internet
>  is made of cats. The net is a series of tubes (Stevens, 2006)
>  through which cats carry information in packets (Butterworth,
>  2011). The failure modes have been less well studied. Several
>  exist, but to date the most researched are fracture, disjunc-
>  tion, and joule-based disruption. FRACTURE causes complete
>  regional internet failure. It occurs when construction or other
>  human activity severs or collapses an underground tunnel through
>  which the cats travel. The symptom of DISJUNCTION is high lat-
>  ency; the usual cause is hooligans placing containers of tuna or
>  cream at tunnel junctions. Data corruption results from JOULE-
>  BASED DISRUPTION, caused by the static charge that accumulates
>  as long-haired cats speed through the tunnels. This shocks the
>  cats, who drop their packets.
>
>   -- Lolapin (2020)
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 21 Apr 2021 at 13:09, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:

> Most of the big automakers can't even sell normal sedans anymore, let alone a
> super-lightweight "city" car.  Just not going to happen.

And yet, somehow Volkswagen sold over 21 million Beetles.  They sold enough 
of them to prosper even when Detroit was building gigantic, gas-guzzling, 
12mpg V8 powered sedans.  They sold them even in the face of dire warnings 
about how unsafe they were in collisions with those gas-guzzlers.

The real reason that automakers don't sell small cars now is that they don't 
advertise them.  The only vehicles they advertise are pickup trucks, SUVs, 
and crossovers.  

They WANT small vehicles to fail, because they make less profit on them.

In the 1960s and into the 1970s, a large part of the reason that Volkswagen 
sold Beetles in an America obsessed with "bigness" was that they advertised 
them creatively, via a brilliant and whimsical advertising campaign created 
by Doyle Dane Bernbach.

http://designbeep.com/2011/12/21/remembering-the-beetle-30-volkswagen-ads-
from-the-1960s/

https://swipefile.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/nobodys-perfect-vw-ad.jpg

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 It is well known (Potts, 2014; Catcher, 2014) that the internet
 is made of cats. The net is a series of tubes (Stevens, 2006) 
 through which cats carry information in packets (Butterworth, 
 2011). The failure modes have been less well studied. Several 
 exist, but to date the most researched are fracture, disjunc-
 tion, and joule-based disruption. FRACTURE causes complete 
 regional internet failure. It occurs when construction or other 
 human activity severs or collapses an underground tunnel through 
 which the cats travel. The symptom of DISJUNCTION is high lat-
 ency; the usual cause is hooligans placing containers of tuna or 
 cream at tunnel junctions. Data corruption results from JOULE-
 BASED DISRUPTION, caused by the static charge that accumulates
 as long-haired cats speed through the tunnels. This shocks the 
 cats, who drop their packets.

  -- Lolapin (2020)
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Well, I have to say, when you are in traffic surrounded by poor drivers,
increasingly equipped with SUV death machines, you don't want to be in a
lightweight tiny car.   Just check the crash ratings.  Building a safe car
that's affordable means it has to have some mass.

Most of the big automakers can't even sell normal sedans anymore, let alone
a super-lightweight "city" car.  Just not going to happen.

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 12:58 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> >> That's pretty much what James Worden of Solectria did with the Sunrise,
> >> and Alex Krause did with the Evergreen. Build a (relatively) normal
> >> car, but with the emphasis on streamlining and light weight.
> >
> > Exactly!  And others, from the Sundancer to the original Aptera concept.
> >
> > But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
> > imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that
> their
> > customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel.  And in fact,
> > just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
> > bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.
>
> Thanks for the corrections, David. These days, my forgetory is better
> than my memory. :-)
>
> It's amazing how stubborn "that's the way we've always done it" thinking
> can be. Safe, efficient, lightweight, streamlined race cars, aircraft,
> and speedboats have been around forever. But cars are still built like
> washing machines (heavy steel boxes, where looks matter more than
> function).
>
> Lee
>
> --
> "Mother Hopper" by Lee Hart 
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
Lee Hart via EV wrote:

That's pretty much what James Worden of Solectria did with the Sunrise,
and Alex Krause did with the Evergreen. Build a (relatively) normal
car, but with the emphasis on streamlining and light weight.


Exactly!  And others, from the Sundancer to the original Aptera concept.

But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to
imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that their
customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel.  And in fact,
just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still
bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.


Thanks for the corrections, David. These days, my forgetory is better 
than my memory. :-)


It's amazing how stubborn "that's the way we've always done it" thinking 
can be. Safe, efficient, lightweight, streamlined race cars, aircraft, 
and speedboats have been around forever. But cars are still built like 
washing machines (heavy steel boxes, where looks matter more than function).


Lee

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 20 Apr 2021 at 22:34, Lee Hart via EV wrote:

> That's pretty much what James Worden of Solectria did with the Sunrise,
> and Alex Krause did with the Evergreen. Build a (relatively) normal
> car, but with the emphasis on streamlining and light weight.  

Exactly!  And others, from the Sundancer to the original Aptera concept. 

But you're right; the mainstream automakers - even Tesla - can't seem to 
imagine much of anything but the same big, heavy cars and trucks that their 
customers are used to filling with gasoline or Diesel fuel.  And in fact, 
just as with ICEVs, the trend in production EVs is mostly toward still 
bigger, clumsier SUVs and crossovers.

BTW, for the record, the Comminication Mini-Evergreen was designed in the 
late 1980s and early 1990s by Andreas Klasen.  

http://www.solarmobil.net/mini.htm

It wasn't sleek looking, but it was quite light and efficient.  Klasen said 
that 14 square meters of PV cells could provide it with enough energy for 
10,000km per year.  I don't know whether he demonstrated that or calculated 
it.

The Evergreen weighed 330kg (without battery) and could carry 4 passengers, 
and a battery of up to 470kg.  I estimate that a modern lithium battery of 
470kg including housing would have a capacity of around 75kWh, which would 
give the Evergreen a range of about 800km (500mi) in warm weather.

You were probably thinking of the Evergreen adapted by Axel (not Alex) 
Krause of Brusa in the mid-1990s. He fitted an Evergreen with Brusa's then-
largest drive system and 180v of 100ah Saft nickel cadmium modules. 

Krause's Evergreen had a warm weather energy consumption (from the mains) of 
11-12.5 kWh/100km, or 175-200 Wh/mile.  Warm weather range was 220km with an 
18kWh battery.  This represents a remarkable consumption at the battery of  
8.2kWh/100km (about 130Wh/mi).  

FWIW, the original Solectria Force (Geo Metro conversion) used around 150-
160Wh/mi when driven at a steady 45mph in warm weather.

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1054815_the-dolphin-super-aerodynamic-homebuilt-electric-car
 Dave Clouds vehicle was designed to go 200 miles with a thousand pounds of 
lead batteries and to boot used ones. The goal was cheap and good. He 
succeeded. I suspect if you modified another Sprint or Metro and got every 
surface covered you might do real well. Small 15kw pack would lighten up the 
car. One mod that would help is to flatten every surface containing solar 
cells. Doesn't seem to hurt the Stella vehicles. But it would be a serious 
engineering job. A flat surface would have to be reinforced. The 1980 pounds of 
Interstate batteries was 10 strings 72v at 50 ah I think 33 pounds each. Must 
be about 30kwh..check my math. Anyway I am sure with some detailed work you 
might just get your solar ev. Dave Cloud did a good one for 3k not including 
labor Don't forget the car and drive train was 1200 pounds. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV - shocking!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> > Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
> > epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it
starts
> > to break down from UV damage.  ...

Shocking Lesson:  I was preparing to show my solar prius one day and used a
damp cloth and water to wipe the dust off the 11 solar panels.  At first I
felt a slight tingling here and there and then went back to the same panel
and got a good shock.

My panels are fiberglass composite so that they bend slightly and were all
connected in series to get to 250 VDC for directly charging the Prius
battery.  After several years (and this event) one could see water
incursion, discoloration and corrosion that had crept into the solar cell
layer (sandwiched between the fiberglass substrate and the polymer sealing
top layer..

The depth of the edge incursion was as high as 1/2 inch in some edges.
The problem was obvious!  And I had seen it coming  in fact, I know that I
did an initial poor quality sealing job, but figured I'd get back to it
some day to do it right.  Never did. until I scraped the car 14 years later

See image of solar cells: about 50% down this page:
http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

(-Phil-) via EV wrote:

Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it starts
to break down from UV damage.  Not worth it at all!


Glass works, of course. :-) But it's difficult to make curved panels, 
and then even more difficult to bond the PV cells to them.


I've used Dow Corning 1-2577 encapsulant to bond PV cells to glass. 
They've been in the sun for 20+ years now, with only minor yellowing.


Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Never work on a car. I would read up on what Eindhoven did. Seems the original 
Stella from 2013 is still going strong. Here is an article including the 
information on the German company who did the encapsulation. 
https://sinovoltaics.com/technology/stella-lux-winner-of-world-solar-challenge-visits-shanghai/
 Lawrence Rhodes






On Tuesday, April 20, 2021, 8:10:10 PM PDT, -Phil-  wrote: 





Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin, epoxy, 
or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it starts to break 
down from UV damage.  Not worth it at all!

The sail boating guys experimented with the flexible solar panels, and they 
almost never make it 2 years even, and those use a much thicker top substrate.  

Problem is it's almost impossible to find a plastic that can pass the 
wavelengths needed to make PV work, and reject the high-energy UV that breaks 
apart the molecules in the plastic.  This is why all real solar installations 
are using tempered glass as a top substrate.


On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:03 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
wrote:
> To make solar panels work on an EV they must be specially encapsulated 
> Sunpower cells. No panels. The area should be 5-6 Meter squared. Should yield 
> 1.5 to 1.8kw. This should charge most EVs at level 1. With a custom 
> controller you could directly connect to the HV battery but that would take 
> some doing. And as always with porky EV's we make and own like a Tesla or 
> Nissan Leaf it is better to to put the PV on the roof of your house but if 
> your car was under 1000 pounds that would be a different story. A custom 
> vehicle like the Stella solar cars built by the engineering students of 
> Eindhoven you could have a 1,200 mile range car...The team cost is estimated 
> at 330,000 euros. That said if you build a tube frame and scrimp on parts you 
> could probably get a couple of hundred miles range and charge in 10 hours of 
> sunlight(15kwh battery pack). It wouldn't be pretty but would function better 
> than most EV's That's just my take. Most people here say it can't be 
> donebut the students
>   of Eind
>  hoven did it...water it down and maybe you'll have a chance. 
> https://solarteameindhoven.nl/ look at what the winners of the World Solar 
> Challenge did and do what you can to copy. Lawrence Rhodes seeing is 
> believing. Crossing Australia in a few days averaging 43mphit can be done 
> so to wrap up the best you can hope for is level 1 charging with extensive 
> customization of your EV. 19 hours of sun to charge the original Leaf. 
> Numbers don't lie.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

To make solar panels work on an EV they must be specially encapsulated Sunpower 
cells. No panels.


It depends on your goals. Sunpower cells can produce the most power per 
sq.meter under ideal conditions. That's great if you're building a solar 
raycer. But they also cost a lot! For many people, a lower $/watt is 
preferable.


Also, other types of cells generate more power under less-than-idea 
conditions. As an extreme example, the tiny PV panel in a solar 
calculator generates more power in room light than a big Sunpower panel.


The PV panel in my Prius is amorphous, and about 1 sq.ft. It's 
efficiency is poor in full sun; but it's sitting on the rear shelf under 
the back window. It generates about 50mA on a sunny day; and that's 
enough to keep the Prius 12v battery charged.



A custom vehicle like the Stella solar cars built by the engineering students
of Eindhoven you could have a 1,200 mile range car... for 330,000 euros.

if you build a tube frame and scrimp on parts you could probably get a couple
of hundred miles range and charge in 10 hours of sunlight (15kwh battery pack).


That's pretty much what James Worden of Solectria did with the Sunrise, 
and Alex Krause did with the Evergreen. Build a (relatively) normal car, 
but with the emphasis on streamlining and light weight. It needs half 
the energy, so you need half the battery, and PV panels can provide a 
significant fraction of the power.


But the automaker EV strategy so far is to build massively heavy cars, 
which needs massively big batteries. They're too heavy and power-hungry 
to power with PV panels.


Lee

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it starts
to break down from UV damage.  Not worth it at all!

The sail boating guys experimented with the flexible solar panels, and they
almost never make it 2 years even, and those use a much thicker top
substrate.

Problem is it's almost impossible to find a plastic that can pass the
wavelengths needed to make PV work, and reject the high-energy UV that
breaks apart the molecules in the plastic.  This is why all real solar
installations are using tempered glass as a top substrate.


On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:03 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
wrote:

> To make solar panels work on an EV they must be specially encapsulated
> Sunpower cells. No panels. The area should be 5-6 Meter squared. Should
> yield 1.5 to 1.8kw. This should charge most EVs at level 1. With a custom
> controller you could directly connect to the HV battery but that would take
> some doing. And as always with porky EV's we make and own like a Tesla or
> Nissan Leaf it is better to to put the PV on the roof of your house but if
> your car was under 1000 pounds that would be a different story. A custom
> vehicle like the Stella solar cars built by the engineering students of
> Eindhoven you could have a 1,200 mile range car...The team cost is
> estimated at 330,000 euros. That said if you build a tube frame and scrimp
> on parts you could probably get a couple of hundred miles range and charge
> in 10 hours of sunlight(15kwh battery pack). It wouldn't be pretty but
> would function better than most EV's That's just my take. Most people here
> say it can't be donebut the students
>   of Eind
>  hoven did it...water it down and maybe you'll have a chance.
> https://solarteameindhoven.nl/ look at what the winners of the World
> Solar Challenge did and do what you can to copy. Lawrence Rhodes seeing is
> believing. Crossing Australia in a few days averaging 43mphit can be
> done so to wrap up the best you can hope for is level 1 charging with
> extensive customization of your EV. 19 hours of sun to charge the original
> Leaf. Numbers don't lie.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

To make solar panels work on an EV they must be specially encapsulated Sunpower 
cells. No panels. The area should be 5-6 Meter squared. Should yield 1.5 to 
1.8kw. This should charge most EVs at level 1. With a custom controller you 
could directly connect to the HV battery but that would take some doing. And as 
always with porky EV's we make and own like a Tesla or Nissan Leaf it is better 
to to put the PV on the roof of your house but if your car was under 1000 
pounds that would be a different story. A custom vehicle like the Stella solar 
cars built by the engineering students of Eindhoven you could have a 1,200 mile 
range car...The team cost is estimated at 330,000 euros. That said if you build 
a tube frame and scrimp on parts you could probably get a couple of hundred 
miles range and charge in 10 hours of sunlight(15kwh battery pack). It wouldn't 
be pretty but would function better than most EV's That's just my take. Most 
people here say it can't be donebut the students of Eind
 hoven did it...water it down and maybe you'll have a chance. 
https://solarteameindhoven.nl/ look at what the winners of the World Solar 
Challenge did and do what you can to copy. Lawrence Rhodes seeing is believing. 
Crossing Australia in a few days averaging 43mphit can be done so to wrap 
up the best you can hope for is level 1 charging with extensive customization 
of your EV. 19 hours of sun to charge the original Leaf. Numbers don't lie.
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[(-Phil-) via EV]

As many of you know, we are doing professional EV van conversions, and one
question we get asked almost continuously is "Can't you put solar panels on
it?".  So we decided to build a prototype and instrument it so we can
answer the question with hard data.

We all know it makes more sense to put them where you park your EV, and of
course we advise our customers to do so.  However, There are a few
scenarios where having panels on the van actually makes sense:

1. We produce a variant with an insulated and refrigerated cargo box that
runs off the high-voltage pack.  This is sold for applications where
perishable cargo transport is needed, such as foodbanks where we already
have units deployed in 2 states.  Given that the refrigeration system is
super efficient, it doesn't take that much power, so adding solar to this
package could really help autonomy when the van is running the reefer.
See: https://youtu.be/-S-DX7gIhcc

2. We are starting to convert camper versions for customers, and this is
where you could really use PV.  If you are parked and running house loads,
the PV can easily handle this, as well as adding a bit of range, rather
than just losing range each day.  See: https://youtu.be/2ehdwVAH_m8

For the prototype we have custom engineered a low-profile mounting system
that lets us mount 1.5kW of high-efficiency panels on the van.  The goal
was to avoid incurring lots of extra aerodynamic drag, which could negate
installing the panels in the first place.  Unlike other EVs, we are lucky
to have a large rather flat roof on the van to add panels to.  I can't
imagine it's worth even considering if you are trying to put them on a
smaller EV, probably without a large flat surface.

Here's the CAD view:


Here's the prototype we just finished installing on:  (This is an insulated
reefer van)


I haven't yet fully completed the charge controller yet, but it's going to
be a MPPT boost converter to take the ~150VDC output from the panels and
boost it to the 300-400VDC needed to charge the EV pack.   I have the basic
boost stage working on the bench now, but need to implement the firmware
for MPPT and also metrology.  I'm using a single Wolfspeed SiCFET switch
along with a SiC diode to make it as efficient as possible.  Of course
nobody makes any kind of an off-the-shelf charge controller that can work
in this application.  There are a lot of complexities, such high-voltage,
and needing to preserve chassis isolation and safety.  In addition, we have
to monitor the BMS over CAN and respect it's charge current limits as well
as the user interface to not charge the pack beyond the desired SoC, and
have to deal with contactor close requests, etc.  It's not easy to solve!

I'll make future posts once we have the system in operation and share the
data we collect on the system's performance.

https://maxwellvehicles.com/

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 3:01 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
> > Has anyone successfully integrated solar panels into their EV? If so,
> could
> > you please share what charge controller you used?
>
> First, it should be noted that PV panels on an EV are a special case
> solution. It's usually better to put them on a fixed structure (garage
> roof, etc.), and plug the EV into them when parked.
>
> That said, I have a small PV panel on my 2001 Prius. It keeps the 12v
> battery charged when the car sits for long periods. Without it, the 12v
> battery would go dead in 2-3 weeks from all the on-board computers.
>
> At other times, I've had PV panels on my VW van EV, and my LeCar EV
> conversion. Again, they only charged the 12v accessory battery.
>
> There have also been a lot of custom ultra-efficient EVs with huge PV
> panel arrays. These are more for race vehicles than for practical daily
> drivers.
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Lee Hart via EV]

nathan christiansn via EV wrote:

Has anyone successfully integrated solar panels into their EV? If so, could
you please share what charge controller you used?


First, it should be noted that PV panels on an EV are a special case 
solution. It's usually better to put them on a fixed structure (garage 
roof, etc.), and plug the EV into them when parked.


That said, I have a small PV panel on my 2001 Prius. It keeps the 12v 
battery charged when the car sits for long periods. Without it, the 12v 
battery would go dead in 2-3 weeks from all the on-board computers.


At other times, I've had PV panels on my VW van EV, and my LeCar EV 
conversion. Again, they only charged the 12v accessory battery.


There have also been a lot of custom ultra-efficient EVs with huge PV 
panel arrays. These are more for race vehicles than for practical daily 
drivers.


Lee Hart

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com

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