Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. Uh, Yes! Please? ¹ On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:53 +0530, chen wrote: I would recommend consulting with a usability expert for this case. We all use Evolution; we all hate the current behaviour. Don't think we need to bring an outsider into the equation. It should do the right thing and reply to list if list it is. Reply-To-Author would very obviously support the less frequent use case. AfC Sydney ¹ because you said Matthew wanted feedback :) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 09:15 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: And I think it extremely rude for someone to effectively say I want to say something but I can't be arsed to find out what anyone else has to say. My time is more important than yours so please send the messages directly to me to save me the effort of finding out. Since we're in a string announcement period leading up to a release, I was asked to post details of the changes to both gnome-i18n and gnome-doc-list. I'm not subscribed to those lists, and I don't need to be. If I *did* subscribe, I'd almost never look in those folders anyway. Am I being extremely rude when I do what I was asked to do, and post the notification there? I expect that if anyone has any questions or feedback to my post, they'll be sensible enough to keep me in Cc when they reply. And what if they don't -- if they reply only to the *one* list through which they happened to receive the copy of the message that they hit reply on? Well, in that case they're not just dropping *me* from the thread; they're also dropping the other mailing list too, and needlessly balkanising the discussion. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 16:46 +1000, Andrew Cowie wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. Uh, Yes! Please? ¹ Patrick later retracted that request, because that would be overriding the *private* reply function to send a *public* message. There's debate about the relative merits of reply-to-all vs. reply-to-list, but most people agree that the *worst* thing we can do is send a reply in public when the user asked us to reply *privately* by using the 'Reply to Sender' menu option (Ctrl-R). Once private information has been sent to the wrong people, especially a public list, it can *never* be fixed. The fixes we've committed (summarised in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c16 ) preserve a clear distinction between private and non-private reply actions -- while occasionally prompting users to think again, if it's likely that they've chosen the wrong one. And giving you the option to make the default 'Group Reply' actually reply-to-list. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header. No it doesn't. The operation *does*. You're getting confused by the fact that the current menu items get disabled when you're not looking at a list message. But actually, some lists don't have a List-Post: header. If there are *any* List-* headers, you'll see the list operations get enabled, and then you'll see quite clearly that the reply-to-list operation falls back to replying to all. Even without having to look at the source or take my word for it. I'm not entirely convinced that this is indeed the case. I've just crafted some messages and as far as I can see only if there is a List-Post: header is the Reply-to-list active in any way - it certainly isn't active if there is a List-Help: header only. I even just installed F13 into a virtual machine to check that it isn't a relative new feature. And I was asking if there are circumstances in which that button would not suffice for you. That is: When would you want a 'Group Reply' button *not* to use a List-Post: header if it is present? The only time I use Reply-to-all on list messages rather than Reply-to-list is when there are multiple lists involved - obviously any particular message only has one List-Post: header, so in order to send a message to multiple lists I need to use Reply-all. I also make sure I edit out any superfluous CC: entries. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 11:09 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back
to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header.
No it doesn't.
The operation *does*. You're getting confused by the fact that the
current menu items get disabled when you're not looking at a list
message.
But actually, some lists don't have a List-Post: header. If there are
*any* List-* headers, you'll see the list operations get enabled, and
then you'll see quite clearly that the reply-to-list operation falls
back to replying to all. Even without having to look at the source or
take my word for it.
I'm not entirely convinced that this is indeed the case. I've just
crafted some messages and as far as I can see only if there is a
List-Post: header is the Reply-to-list active in any way
The Reply-to-list option (and other list submenu) should be active if
any of these match (see camel/camel-mime-utils.c):
{ List-Post, [ \t]*mailto:([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ List-Id, [^]*([^\\.]+)\\.?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Mailing-List, [ \t]*list ([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r;]*) },
{ Originator, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-Mailing-List, [ \t]*?([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-Loop, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-List, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Sender, [ \t]*owner-([...@]+)@?([^ @\n\t\r]*) },
{ Sender, [ \t]*([...@]+)-ow...@?([^ @\n\t\r]*) },
{ Delivered-To, [ \t]*mailing list ([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Return-Path, [ \t]*?owner-([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-BeenThere, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ List-Unsubscribe, mailto:(.+)-unsubscribe@([^ \n\t\r]*) },
Just to double-check, I sent myself two copies of your latest message,
both with and without the List-Post: header:
dwmw2 ~/Maildir/.lists.evo/cur $ cat
1279274987.H637206P5247.twosheds.infradead.org:2, | sed -e '/^List-Post: /d'
-e 's/^Subject: .*/Subject: test with no LP/' | /usr/lib/sendmail
dw...@infradead.org
dwmw2 ~/Maildir/.lists.evo/cur $ cat
1279274987.H637206P5247.twosheds.infradead.org:2, | sed -e 's/^Subject:
.*/Subject: test with LP/' | /usr/lib/sendmail dw...@infradead.org
When I view them both in my INBOX, the 'Reply to list' option is enabled
for both of them. For one it goes to the list, for the other it doesn't
find the List-Post: header and thus falls back to replying to all.
I'd send you the same messages to test, but ISTR your mail software is
broken and would silently delete both of them because it thinks it's
already seen them?
(I say broken because of all the fun I can have with it. I can send
messages to the list that I know your system will delete without you
seeing them -- and I when I am directly Cc'd on messages which were also
sent to the list, I can quickly send you a different message with the
same Message-Id:, thus ensuring that you never receive the real list
message :)
And I was asking if there are circumstances in which that button would
not suffice for you. That is:
When would you want a 'Group Reply' button *not* to use a
List-Post: header if it is present?
The only time I use Reply-to-all on list messages rather than
Reply-to-list is when there are multiple lists involved - obviously any
particular message only has one List-Post: header, so in order to send a
message to multiple lists I need to use Reply-all. I also make sure I
edit out any superfluous CC: entries.
That's what I was looking for; thanks. Do you do this often enough that
you really want a third toolbar button, and the existing drop-down
choice on the 'Group Reply' button isn't sufficient?
Much as I hate to suggest yet another reply option -- do we want a
'Reply to List-Post: and Cc: headers; not From:'?
If you're not aware of the new 'Group Reply' button, it's shown and
described at the bottom of http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html
--
dwmw2
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
The operation *does*. You're getting confused by the fact that the
current menu items get disabled when you're not looking at a list
message.
But actually, some lists don't have a List-Post: header. If there are
*any* List-* headers, you'll see the list operations get enabled, and
then you'll see quite clearly that the reply-to-list operation falls
back to replying to all. Even without having to look at the source or
take my word for it.
I'm not entirely convinced that this is indeed the case. I've just
crafted some messages and as far as I can see only if there is a
List-Post: header is the Reply-to-list active in any way
The Reply-to-list option (and other list submenu) should be active if
any of these match (see camel/camel-mime-utils.c):
{ List-Post, [ \t]*mailto:([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ List-Id, [^]*([^\\.]+)\\.?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Mailing-List, [ \t]*list ([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r;]*) },
{ Originator, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-Mailing-List, [ \t]*?([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-Loop, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-List, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Sender, [ \t]*owner-([...@]+)@?([^ @\n\t\r]*) },
{ Sender, [ \t]*([...@]+)-ow...@?([^ @\n\t\r]*) },
{ Delivered-To, [ \t]*mailing list ([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ Return-Path, [ \t]*?owner-([^@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ X-BeenThere, [ \t]*([...@]+)@?([^ \n\t\r]*) },
{ List-Unsubscribe, mailto:(.+)-unsubscribe@([^ \n\t\r]*) },
OK. So it's not just any List-*: header, there's a specific list of
headers it needs (with specific formats in some cases). Fine, that
explains why my test didn't work. Thanks for explaining it.
I'd send you the same messages to test, but ISTR your mail software is
broken and would silently delete both of them because it thinks it's
already seen them?
(I say broken because of all the fun I can have with it. I can send
messages to the list that I know your system will delete without you
seeing them -- and I when I am directly Cc'd on messages which were also
sent to the list, I can quickly send you a different message with the
same Message-Id:, thus ensuring that you never receive the real list
message :)
No, I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this - it's not my
mail software that only lets me see one version, I only ever get sent
one version by the mailing list software because it tries to remove
duplicates and if it sees my name on the CC: or To: list, it doesn't
send me the list copy. On other mailing lists I get multiple copies
without any problems.
The only time I use Reply-to-all on list messages rather than
Reply-to-list is when there are multiple lists involved - obviously any
particular message only has one List-Post: header, so in order to send a
message to multiple lists I need to use Reply-all. I also make sure I
edit out any superfluous CC: entries.
That's what I was looking for; thanks. Do you do this often enough that
you really want a third toolbar button, and the existing drop-down
choice on the 'Group Reply' button isn't sufficient?
I don't know - I don't have an install of 2.30.x that I have used
sufficiently often to know how usable the drop down list paradigm is in
this context.
But as I have said a few times, this isn't really about my usability - I
have been using Evo with lists for enough years now that my muscle
memory will probably continue using ctrl-L no matter what. What I would
like is for the Reply-to-List to be more prominent to encourage people
to use that rather than just blindly replying to the user. In my naivety
I thought the simplest way would be to just add a Reply-to-list button
on the toolbar
P.
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 12:44 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: OK. So it's not just any List-*: header, there's a specific list of headers it needs (with specific formats in some cases). Fine, that explains why my test didn't work. Thanks for explaining it. Arguably we should fix things so that it's only enabled when there is a List-Post: header. Likewise all the individual items in the Message - Mailing List submenu ought to be enabled only if the corresponding header is present. It's just that we don't actually store that information in the message summary, only a single boolean for 'is mailing list' -- and it would be a PITA to change. No, I think you got the wrong end of the stick on this - it's not my mail software that only lets me see one version, I only ever get sent one version by the mailing list software Ah, OK. There are people who suffer from both of those problems; I had forgotten which one it was in your case. But as I have said a few times, this isn't really about my usability Well, it isn't about *any* individual's usability, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be asking individuals what they find most usable. You seemed to have an viewpoint that was worth considering... and one which differs from mine, which makes it interesting. What I would like is for the Reply-to-List to be more prominent to encourage people to use that rather than just blindly replying to the user. Certainly I'm with you on the 'rather than just blindly replying to the user' bit -- there's now a pop-up which will say you're replying in private; do you really want to do that?. As for which *type* of public reply -- to all vs. to list -- we obviously disagree on that topic. But now it's configurable for you. Would you like to send me a well-reasoned counter argument that I can present in http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html ? Your response, if I recall correctly, was that the affected people (Claire, Karl and maybe Fred in my examples) were being rude because they wanted to operate in 'write-only' mode, without listening to what anyone else had to say... and that was your reasoning for not *letting* them see what you had to say, which confused me because it seemed a little circular. Personally, I'm more like Fred and I prefer *not* to operate in write-only mode, which is precisely *why* I don't want to be dropped from Cc when people reply to me. If you could phrase your view in terms of the examples on that page (and perhaps provide new examples, if you think there are relevant usage models that I've left out), then that would be interesting. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
El jue, 15-07-2010 a las 16:09 +0100, David Woodhouse escribió: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. How's this? ___ That's perfect to me. I like it. Regards Sylvia signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
What I would like is for the Reply-to-List to be more prominent to encourage people to use that rather than just blindly replying to the user. Certainly I'm with you on the 'rather than just blindly replying to the user' bit -- there's now a pop-up which will say you're replying in private; do you really want to do that?. You keep saying now, presumably what you mean is that you have submitted code that does these things? Also in your web page you say what we currently have ..., when what you really mean is it is proposed that in the next version of Evolution we will have Or have I missed something? Also on the Group Reply button thing, how about you change the label to Reply to ... and then have in the drop down list Reply to All, Reply to List, Reply to Sender - that covers the various none-direct reply scenaria. Would you like to send me a well-reasoned counter argument that I can present in http://david.woodhou.se/reply-to-list.html ? Your response, if I recall correctly, was that the affected people (Claire, Karl and maybe Fred in my examples) were being rude because they wanted to operate in 'write-only' mode, without listening to what anyone else had to say... and that was your reasoning for not *letting* them see what you had to say, which confused me because it seemed a little circular. Personally, I'm more like Fred and I prefer *not* to operate in write-only mode, which is precisely *why* I don't want to be dropped from Cc when people reply to me. If you could phrase your view in terms of the examples on that page (and perhaps provide new examples, if you think there are relevant usage models that I've left out), then that would be interesting. I'm sorry, this is going to have to be a quick reply (because I have a real job to do!). The problem is trying to squeeze all usage cases into one set of rules - it's not going to work. I can't give you a set of rules that works correctly every time to everyone's satisfaction. What I think is rude and unacceptable are the people who write a message to a list where *they* are asking for help and they say don't forget to CC: me in any replies because I don't want to read the list. If you are asking for help, at least be polite enough to meet people half way. It is often the same people who ask FAQs. Replying to a message of mine on a mailing list by CC:'ing me is really just a royal PITA - I either get one message without the list headers or two messages and I have to work out which is the mailing list version. I see no point in CC:'ing me (or indeed me CC:'ing somebody who is on the list) - I will see the message, I don't need another copy. I also don't buy the time delay argument - discussions on mailing lists are rarely time critical; besides on some of the work mailing lists, I get the mailing list version *before* the CC: version (there's an Exchange server involved in one of the mail routes). If everyone habitually uses Reply-all, the CC: list eventually becomes unmanageable. I've just had a look on one of my local mailing lists - 3 people in the To:, 6 people in the CC: along with two mailing lists. Everyone mentioned is on both lists already - there's just no point. In this thread there are what, 10-15 people who have contributed. Are you expecting everyone to be listed in the CC:? At what point is the list culled and under what criteria? There are times when a CC: is acceptable - people who are co-opted into a list discussion (usually against their will!) are certainly perfectly at liberty to remain as a CC:. i.e. the Claire in your example. Cross posted lists should also be maintained (i.e. Karl), but there is no reason to CC: individuals if they are on either/both of the lists. To summarise. I am not saying don't use Reply-all, what I am saying is don't CC: messages to people who are already on the mailing list. And it wasn't a quick reply after all ... P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 15:12 +, Pete Biggs wrote: What I would like is for the Reply-to-List to be more prominent to encourage people to use that rather than just blindly replying to the user. Certainly I'm with you on the 'rather than just blindly replying to the user' bit -- there's now a pop-up which will say you're replying in private; do you really want to do that?. You keep saying now, presumably what you mean is that you have submitted code that does these things? Also in your web page you say what we currently have ..., when what you really mean is it is proposed that in the next version of Evolution we will have Or have I missed something? I mean I'm running it right now. It is committed to git so it'll be in the 2.31.6 unstable release when it happens on August 2nd. Also on the Group Reply button thing, how about you change the label to Reply to ... and then have in the drop down list Reply to All, Reply to List, Reply to Sender - that covers the various none-direct reply scenaria. I pondered that, but it's also a button in its own right -- you don't *have* to drop it down and choose from the list; you can just press it. So that doesn't seem ideal. (Thanks for other reply; will ponder how to include that) -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
OT: This is just to note that David's last reply has now fallen off the right-hand edge of my (landscape-mode) screen, i.e. I can't see even the first character of the Subject. Hurray for nested threads! So there's another topic to take up when we're done with the list issue :-) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 11:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: OT: This is just to note that David's last reply has now fallen off the right-hand edge of my (landscape-mode) screen, i.e. I can't see even the first character of the Subject. Do you mean the 'R' for 'Reply' which is the first character of the real subject, or are you including the horrid '[Evolution]' nonsense which obscures the real subject and is entirely pointless because it's on *EVERY* mail in the evolution mailing list folder. :) -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 15:12 +, Pete Biggs wrote: What I think is rude and unacceptable are the people who write a message to a list where *they* are asking for help and they say don't forget to CC: me in any replies because I don't want to read the list. If you are asking for help, at least be polite enough to meet people half way. It is often the same people who ask FAQs. We're getting a bit OT here, but I agree with Pete on this. My take on it as follows: David has said several times that it's rude not to reply directly (via CC) to posts on mailing lists. I have to say this is the first time I've seen this position advocated. Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the usual guides to netiquette and couldn't find any mention of it on the first page of results returned by a Google search (netiquette mailing lists). Perhaps I didn't look hard enough, but that in itself would indicate that it's not a common opinion. People who ask questions on mailing lists are not writing to me, they are writing to a group of people represented by the list membership. Think of it as asking a question in a town-hall meeting. Given that they aren't writing to me, why should I assume I need to reply explicitly to them (unless they request it) as well as giving a public response? Rudeness doesn't enter into it. A public forum is not the same as a private communication. Now back to our regularly-scheduled program. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 16:57 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 11:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 16:09 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. How's this? I think the list ate my reply with the image attachment -- just as well I Cc'd you directly. :) For the record, it was: http://david.woodhou.se/evo-group-reply.png Very nice. This would fit well with my recent (second revised) proposal in place of the Reply To List button. I feel we're approaching a consensus. Let's hope it isn't asymptotic :-) OK, I've pushed what I have so far, since I think we're fairly much agreed. There may be more tweaks we can make, but this is progress. What I've pushed is: - Three nag pop-ups: - Replying to all, to many (15+) recipients - Replying privately to list mail - Mailing list is hijacking private mail with Reply-To: - Option to ignore Reply-To: where it matches List-Post: - 'Group Reply' button with drop-down menu like the 'Forward' one, with its default action configurable for list/all. - Memory leak fixes (which I need to back port to gnome-2-30) Perhaps the reply to all nag could have a configurable threshold, but it's no big deal. Otherwise, I'm in agreement. I'm not sure how we proceed from here (if there are no objections). Does Matthew now take over? Perhaps you should post your detailed proposal (including an explanation of the nags) to the BZ page to make it more official (and more likely to be seen by the Evo devels). poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 17:21 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 11:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: OT: This is just to note that David's last reply has now fallen off the right-hand edge of my (landscape-mode) screen, i.e. I can't see even the first character of the Subject. Do you mean the 'R' for 'Reply' which is the first character of the real subject, or are you including the horrid '[Evolution]' nonsense which obscures the real subject and is entirely pointless because it's on *EVERY* mail in the evolution mailing list folder. The subject part of the line is completely empty on mine and has been for the last 5 or 6 messages - everything, including the down arrow and the Re: are of the edge of the screen... Conclusion: we're talking too much. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 17:21 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 11:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: OT: This is just to note that David's last reply has now fallen off the right-hand edge of my (landscape-mode) screen, i.e. I can't see even the first character of the Subject. Do you mean the 'R' for 'Reply' which is the first character of the real subject, or are you including the horrid '[Evolution]' nonsense which obscures the real subject and is entirely pointless because it's on *EVERY* mail in the evolution mailing list folder. :) I mean the 'R' of 'Re:' poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 12:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Perhaps you should post your detailed proposal (including an explanation of the nags) to the BZ page to make it more official (and more likely to be seen by the Evo devels). I just noticed you already did this before I replied. Sorry about that (my net connection was out for several hours this morning). poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 12:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Perhaps the reply to all nag could have a configurable threshold, but it's no big deal. Yeah, I thought about that too, but couldn't be bothered. It's only a prompt to make you think; it doesn't have to be precise. Besides, the kind of person who would tweak it is the kind of person who doesn't need to be reminded because they're perfectly capable of just pressing the right button in the first place. Although I suppose there's some merit in having a hidden gconf key which a sysadmin could set for everyone... Otherwise, I'm in agreement. I'm not sure how we proceed from here (if there are no objections). Does Matthew now take over? There is no 'proceed'. It's done, tested, and pushed to the git tree. There's nothing for Matthew to do¹. http://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/ -- dwmw2 ¹ Unless he can be bothered to make the threshold configurable as you suggest above. You could always send a patch for that yourself, if you really care. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 18:43 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-16 at 12:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Perhaps the reply to all nag could have a configurable threshold, but it's no big deal. Yeah, I thought about that too, but couldn't be bothered. It's only a prompt to make you think; it doesn't have to be precise. Besides, the kind of person who would tweak it is the kind of person who doesn't need to be reminded because they're perfectly capable of just pressing the right button in the first place. Although I suppose there's some merit in having a hidden gconf key which a sysadmin could set for everyone... Otherwise, I'm in agreement. I'm not sure how we proceed from here (if there are no objections). Does Matthew now take over? There is no 'proceed'. It's done, tested, and pushed to the git tree. There's nothing for Matthew to do¹. http://git.gnome.org/browse/evolution/log/ OK, I look forward to complaining about it once it hits the distros :-) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
The problem with that suggestion is that there are people (including myself) who firmly believe that the right thing to do with a list message is to *include* the original sender when replying, unless you're sure they don't want you to. And I very firmly believe that CC'ing someone who is already on the list is most definitely NOT the right thing to do. The sender may not be subscribed to the list, and even if they are subscribed they may not be looking in that folder very often, if ever. It would be *extremely* rude to drop them from Cc when you're replying to them. And I think it extremely rude for someone to effectively say I want to say something but I can't be arsed to find out what anyone else has to say. My time is more important than yours so please send the messages directly to me to save me the effort of finding out. Even if they are subscribed (and looking in that folder) there may also be a substantial delay to receiving mails through the mailing list, which will introduce significantly more latency than if the active participants are directly in Cc, and detract from the conversation. And I'm on other lists where people have the habit of doing reply to all and the CC: list eventually contains virtually everyone on the mailing list. It's just crass stupidity. And, as I've already pointed out, the CC: copy people receive does not have the list headers - which immediately makes them not do the right thing of replying to the list, and since a sensible list filters out duplicates, it means that they never do get the list version. It's because of this crass behaviour that I had to modify my server side filters to filter not on the list headers (which would be sensible) but on To: *and* CC: - even the Evo filters won't filter mailing list messages which don't have the mailing list headers, so the expectation is obviously that messages from a mailing list will have the mailing list headers. Let's not argue about that too much -- we won't make any progress. Let's just recognise that this 'DTRT' thing that you suggest is hard when we can't agree on what TRT is. Yes, but all your solutions seem to implement it the way *you* want - in other words, lets not argue about it because I know I'm right. But I have already¹ posted a patch which *optionally* makes the existing 'Reply to All' button do what you propose, so you can set that option if you want. And yes, I also say that you can keep it named Reply to All for all I care, so that's what I did. I would be strongly against any implementation that automatically, whether through option or not, allowed people to reply to list with a CC: added. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 11:57 +0200, Kåre Fiedler Christiansen wrote: First: Apologies, Pete, I accidentally replied off-list. Honestly, I didn't mean to. I just clicked the wrong reply button (the one I used the most). :-) I would be strongly against any implementation that automatically, whether through option or not, allowed people to reply to list with a CC: added. Those are two interesting statements to make right after each others. First a complaint that one poster only wants to implement the solution he thinks is right, and then an ultimatum about what should be implemented. No, it wasn't an ultimatum - it was an opinion. I didn't say if you implement it in that way I will nuke the Evolution server from space. All I said was that I am strongly against it - because I think it is wrong. I think Nick's suggestion was to make The Right Thing configurable, whereas you _demand_ that one behavior should be impossible in Evolution. There was no _demand_. There was only a strong opinion. I'm still hoping this will evolve into something where I can have _one_ reply button do what I want, but I'm more or less giving up hope on that. It seems that suggestion is simply ignored without discussion, as everyone keeps talking about the different ways to reply to mailing lists, munged or not. Because it is seen as being wrong that a single button is overloaded and silently changes it action depending on the message. Take for example a CC: of a mailing list message - to all outward appearances that message is a mailing list message, however there are no mailing list headers and so the magic reply button wouldn't know it's from a mailing list and would just reply to the originator; whereas an almost identical message that was received via the list would have its reply sent to the list. Are there any usability experts in the Gnome community we could pull in? It seems to me we are discussing Evolution usability from the point of view of a few expert users, rather than trying to figure out what behavior would be best for the majority of users of Evolution. Evo currently has all the functionality it needs to deal with mailing lists. Much of what is being talked about is trying to second guess what a user wants or intends to do, or trying to push them in a certain direction. Fair enough. But there is little point to it if there is no consensus over what that direction should be. I have my opinions and others have theirs (as is right and proper). My current inclination is to head down the KISS route - just put a Reply-to-list button on the toolbar that might possibly be greyed out if there is no list info. That seems to be simple, quick and easy to implement - it's just a patch to an XML file. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
My current inclination is to head down the KISS route - just put a
Reply-to-list button on the toolbar that might possibly be greyed out if
there is no list info. That seems to be simple, quick and easy to
implement - it's just a patch to an XML file.
In fact I've just done it:
# diff -c evolution-mail-message.xml*
*** evolution-mail-message.xml 2010-07-15 11:46:41.908738010 +0100
--- evolution-mail-message.xml.bu 2010-07-15 11:45:17.080749201
+0100
***
*** 399,408
_label=Reply to All priority=1
pixtype=pixbuf/
- toolitem name=MessageReplyList verb=
-_label=Reply to List priority=1
-pixtype=pixbuf/
-
toolitem name=MessageForward verb=
_label=Forward priority=1
pixtype=pixbuf/
--- 399,404
This is for 2.26.3 ('cos that's what I'm using this very minute) and the
files are located in /usr/share/evolution/2.26/ui on F11. It even gets
greyed out when there are no list messages, it's just missing an icon.
P.
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Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 09:15 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: Let's not argue about that too much -- we won't make any progress. Let's just recognise that this 'DTRT' thing that you suggest is hard when we can't agree on what TRT is. Yes, but all your solutions seem to implement it the way *you* want - in other words, lets not argue about it because I know I'm right. Not at all. I'm saying that it's pointless to argue about whether reply-to-list or reply-to-all is best; let's just make it simple for the user to choose. And it's *already* simple for the user to choose if they're using the keyboard shortcuts or the menu; it's only the toolbar that really needs attention, as you say. And despite the fact that I personally think the toolbar is just perfect -- it doesn't show this silly Reply-to-List option at all, because nobody should be doing that -- I still went out of my way to implement an option that lets you turn the 'Reply to All' button into a 'Reply in Public' button which replies to the list by preference, purely for the benefit of those who disagree with me. I don't see anyone *else* putting real code forward; let alone code which enables a behaviour which they find suboptimal. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 13:24 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: And it's *already* simple for the user to choose if they're using the keyboard shortcuts or the menu; it's only the toolbar that really needs attention, as you say. Fine. So what's the point of all this discussion then? Just change the toolbar. Because people are still proposing more complicated things (and things which don't have a clear distinction between *private* and *public* replies and which are more likely to lead to confusion IMHO). And I'm trying *not* to just ignore people who are proposing things that seem not to make much sense to me; I'm trying to work out what they really need. For example... And despite the fact that I personally think the toolbar is just perfect -- it doesn't show this silly Reply-to-List option at all, because nobody should be doing that -- I still went out of my way to implement an option that lets you turn the 'Reply to All' button into a 'Reply in Public' button which replies to the list by preference, purely for the benefit of those who disagree with me. But Reply-to-All is useful, I don't want it to become a Reply-in-Public. And the term Public is horrible - many of the lists I am on are private lists, the reply is most definitely not public and it will just confuse people. Remember, we're *only* talking about the toolbar button. You'll always have the option of hitting Ctrl-Shift-R or using 'Reply to All' from the menu. So are you *really* saying that you need *both* 'all' and 'list' reply buttons to be in the toolbar, because even thought your normal preference it to reply-to-list on list messages, you might *sometimes* want to reply-to-all on a list message instead? And you really can't use the menu or the keyboard for that rare occasion? I agree that 'Reply in Public' isn't a brilliant name for a button which tries to reply to the list, and falls back to replying to all. Do you have a better suggestion? Given that: - we can't make it change according to the message we're looking at. - 'Reply to List' would be wrong sometimes. - 'Reply to All' would be wrong sometimes. - 'Reply to List or All' is clumsy too. Perhaps 'Group Reply'? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 13:00 +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote: OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): This all far too complicated. Agreed. If it's a user-facing change that too complicated to understand easily or explain simply, and you need to refer to a table to work out what the heck is going to happen, then I'm deeply opposed to it, on the basis that most ordinary users won't understand it either. Forget the table. It was just my way of representing the possible actions in a very explicit manner to make sure there were no ambiguities about what we were talking about. A table showing the *current* situation would look just as complicated. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 12:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list. As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the same thing. An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and don't do Reply-To munging. For those that do munge the Reply-To field, a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the case with these lists so nothing is lost. (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long thread about munging, which that list does do.) I've rethought this proposal in the light of comments by several people, particularly David Woodhouse. This proposal supersedes the original and seeks to minimize trauma and give some extra funcionality: When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R). When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e. it replies to the List-Post address only. In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now. A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To and do the same as Ctrl-R. Having read the extensive comments over the last day or two, I'd like to propose the following (this is a slightly modified version of my second proposal and is about as simple as I can make it and still cover the behaviour I'd like): Reply To List is bound to Ctrl-L as now, and has a toolbar button. When Ctrl-L is inactive, the button greys out. A Preference option allows Ctrl-L to fall back to Shift-Ctrl-R when the List-Post header is not detected. This implies that Ctrl-L (and the toolbar button) are always active. In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) and Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R) both work exactly as now. A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut, no toolbar icon) replies only to the message originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To and do the same as Ctrl-R. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 16:09 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. How's this? Very nice. This would fit well with my recent (second revised) proposal in place of the Reply To List button. I feel we're approaching a consensus. Let's hope it isn't asymptotic :-) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 11:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 16:09 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. How's this? I think the list ate my reply with the image attachment -- just as well I Cc'd you directly. :) For the record, it was: http://david.woodhou.se/evo-group-reply.png Very nice. This would fit well with my recent (second revised) proposal in place of the Reply To List button. I feel we're approaching a consensus. Let's hope it isn't asymptotic :-) OK, I've pushed what I have so far, since I think we're fairly much agreed. There may be more tweaks we can make, but this is progress. What I've pushed is: - Three nag pop-ups: - Replying to all, to many (15+) recipients - Replying privately to list mail - Mailing list is hijacking private mail with Reply-To: - Option to ignore Reply-To: where it matches List-Post: - 'Group Reply' button with drop-down menu like the 'Forward' one, with its default action configurable for list/all. - Memory leak fixes (which I need to back port to gnome-2-30) -- David WoodhouseOpen Source Technology Centre david.woodho...@intel.com Intel Corporation ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
But Reply-to-All is useful, I don't want it to become a Reply-in-Public. And the term Public is horrible - many of the lists I am on are private lists, the reply is most definitely not public and it will just confuse people. Remember, we're *only* talking about the toolbar button. You'll always have the option of hitting Ctrl-Shift-R or using 'Reply to All' from the menu. So are you *really* saying that you need *both* 'all' and 'list' reply buttons to be in the toolbar, Not need, would like. because even thought your normal preference it to reply-to-list on list messages, you might *sometimes* want to reply-to-all on a list message instead? No, I need to reply all for normal messages - life isn't just about lists :-) Also I need a reply all for list messages when I get a CC: copy without the list headers in the message. And you really can't use the menu or the keyboard for that rare occasion? I could just continue with the current situation where I press ctrl-l for list messages - that for me is the minority case, probably about 5% of the email I answer is to a mailing list. I agree that 'Reply in Public' isn't a brilliant name for a button which tries to reply to the list, and falls back to replying to all. Do you have a better suggestion? Given that: - we can't make it change according to the message we're looking at. - 'Reply to List' would be wrong sometimes. - 'Reply to All' would be wrong sometimes. - 'Reply to List or All' is clumsy too. Perhaps 'Group Reply'? One issue is that *I* don't have Evo 2.30 because I haven't had time to upgrade to F13, so I didn't know about the drop down toolbar buttons. I would be against overloading a single button with multiple meanings. I don't have a particular objection to Group Reply - although within the context of a Groupware solution, the term Group may have a specific meaning and may cause confusion. Part of the problem is that I have feeling you see Reply-all and Reply-list to be quite similar, whereas I see them as conceptually separate operations - consequently I have problems thinking of a term that satisfactorily covers both. This is probably also why I see there to be a need for both buttons, and you don't. Anyway, perhaps I need to install F13 before I take anymore part in this conversation... P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 18:22 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: because even though your normal preference is to reply-to-list on list messages, you might *sometimes* want to reply-to-all on a list message instead? No, I need to reply all for normal messages - life isn't just about lists :-) That sounds like a 'no'. A single button which does reply to list if it's a list message, else reply to all would handle both of those situations. Also I need a reply all for list messages when I get a CC: copy without the list headers in the message. When you get a Cc copy without the list headers in the message, that *isn't* a list message in any meaningful sense of the term -- it's a direct message. One issue is that *I* don't have Evo 2.30 because I haven't had time to upgrade to F13, so I didn't know about the drop down toolbar buttons. I would be against overloading a single button with multiple meanings. Yeah, the drop-down toolbar button is nicer. That's what I've done. I don't have a particular objection to Group Reply - although within the context of a Groupware solution, the term Group may have a specific meaning and may cause confusion. Part of the problem is that I have feeling you see Reply-all and Reply-list to be quite similar, whereas I see them as conceptually separate operations - consequently I have problems thinking of a term that satisfactorily covers both. This is probably also why I see there to be a need for both buttons, and you don't. I do see them a bit like that, yes. But mostly I don't see the need for reply-to-list at all -- as discussed elsewhere I think it's a fundamentally broken thing to do. So I'm trying to understand the point of view of those that *do* want it. My understanding *was* that those people who wanted reply-to-list would want to use it for *all* lists. Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header. You described above a couple of cases where you'd not want to reply to the List-Post: addresss... but both of those were cases that wouldn't have a List-Post: header in the first place, so if you'd set the option for 'Group Reply button does reply-to-list' then you'd have been fine. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
Also I need a reply all for list messages when I get a CC: copy without the list headers in the message. When you get a Cc copy without the list headers in the message, that *isn't* a list message in any meaningful sense of the term -- it's a direct message. Yes, I understand that - that's why your messages that come directly to me via the CC: are so frustrating - they aren't list messages and are treated differently both by my MTA and MUA. I don't have a particular objection to Group Reply - although within the context of a Groupware solution, the term Group may have a specific meaning and may cause confusion. Part of the problem is that I have feeling you see Reply-all and Reply-list to be quite similar, whereas I see them as conceptually separate operations - consequently I have problems thinking of a term that satisfactorily covers both. This is probably also why I see there to be a need for both buttons, and you don't. I do see them a bit like that, yes. But mostly I don't see the need for reply-to-list at all -- as discussed elsewhere I think it's a fundamentally broken thing to do. So I'm trying to understand the point of view of those that *do* want it. The concept is that when I'm dealing with mailing lists, I think, fundamentally, that all messages should go to the list since that is where the discussion is happening. The reply-to-list does just that, without introducing extraneous messages to different addresses. My understanding *was* that those people who wanted reply-to-list would want to use it for *all* lists. Yes. Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header. No it doesn't. If the message doesn't have list headers then Ctrl-L doesn't do anything, the menu item is greyed out and any button I add is also greyed out. For instance, reply-to-list does not work on the messages that I get from you because they are CC:'d and don't come via the list. You described above a couple of cases where you'd not want to reply to the List-Post: addresss... but both of those were cases that wouldn't have a List-Post: header in the first place, so if you'd set the option for 'Group Reply button does reply-to-list' then you'd have been fine. Well one of the situations I described are those that don't involve mailing lists at all - i.e. normal personal messages. The other is where I get a message from a mailing list discussion, but not via the list (which I, as you probably gather, think is broken behaviour). The bottom line is that all I would like to see is the action of Reply-to-List being given a much more prominent position in the UI - a position alongside Reply-to-All. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 20:54 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: My understanding *was* that those people who wanted reply-to-list would want to use it for *all* lists. Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header. No it doesn't. That's why I suggested it should. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 21:28 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: Remember, the existing reply-to-list operation *already* falls back to replying to all if it can't find a List-Post: header. No it doesn't. The operation *does*. You're getting confused by the fact that the current menu items get disabled when you're not looking at a list message. But actually, some lists don't have a List-Post: header. If there are *any* List-* headers, you'll see the list operations get enabled, and then you'll see quite clearly that the reply-to-list operation falls back to replying to all. Even without having to look at the source or take my word for it. So ignore the fact that the *current* menu options which invoke that operation are disabled. We were talking about (and I had implemented) a button in the toolbar which *doesn't* get disabled, and which invokes the same operation. And I was asking if there are circumstances in which that button would not suffice for you. That is: When would you want a 'Group Reply' button *not* to use a List-Post: header if it is present? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
I like your picture, I think that way is fine to me. Sylvia El jue, 15-07-2010 a las 16:57 +0100, David Woodhouse escribió: On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 11:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Thu, 2010-07-15 at 16:09 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:42 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. How's this? I think the list ate my reply with the image attachment -- just as well I Cc'd you directly. :) For the record, it was: http://david.woodhou.se/evo-group-reply.png Very nice. This would fit well with my recent (second revised) proposal in place of the Reply To List button. I feel we're approaching a consensus. Let's hope it isn't asymptotic :-) OK, I've pushed what I have so far, since I think we're fairly much agreed. There may be more tweaks we can make, but this is progress. What I've pushed is: - Three nag pop-ups: - Replying to all, to many (15+) recipients - Replying privately to list mail - Mailing list is hijacking private mail with Reply-To: - Option to ignore Reply-To: where it matches List-Post: - 'Group Reply' button with drop-down menu like the 'Forward' one, with its default action configurable for list/all. - Memory leak fixes (which I need to back port to gnome-2-30) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 22:36 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: GNOME's HIG generally forbids changing menus and toolbars on the fly like that, and I tend to agree. Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that anyway just because it changes the size of the button. With the are you sure you want to reply privately? autonag, perhaps it isn't really necessary anyway. -- David WoodhouseOpen Source Technology Centre david.woodho...@intel.com Intel Corporation ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that anyway just because it changes the size of the button. I would say so. Main window's toolbar should remain static. Just to throw another idea out there... Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem. They define dedicated Reply to Sender and Reply to List actions in their menus, but also a generic Reply action whose behavior for a mailing list post is determined by a user preference: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply I would probably reword the label, but same idea. How does that sound? I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and menu changes to a minimum here. So my proposal is: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or maybe overrides Reply-To munging? Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem. They define dedicated Reply to Sender and Reply to List actions in their menus, but also a generic Reply action whose behavior for a mailing list post is determined by a user preference: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply I would probably reword the label, but same idea. How does that sound? I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and menu changes to a minimum here. So my proposal is: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or maybe overrides Reply-To munging? Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. I like this version best - i.e. the default unthinking action is to do the right thing, but gives the opportunity for people to customise it with the minimum of fuss - could I ask that the default on a clean install is for reply to be sent to the list, i.e. the option turned on. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
El mié, 14-07-2010 a las 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes escribió: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that anyway just because it changes the size of the button. I would say so. Main window's toolbar should remain static. Just to throw another idea out there... Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem. They define dedicated Reply to Sender and Reply to List actions in their menus, but also a generic Reply action whose behavior for a mailing list post is determined by a user preference: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply I would probably reword the label, but same idea. How does that sound? I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and menu changes to a minimum here. So my proposal is: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or maybe overrides Reply-To munging? Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. ___ Matthew Barnes: This is perfect! Sylvia signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:36 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The user can *already* express a preference, by moving their hand an inch or two to the left or right and hitting a different (key|menu item|button). But there isn't a Reply to List button - so instead of hitting the reply button, you have to press ctrl-L or Message - Reply to list. And no, I do not consider Reply to All to be suitable substitute for Reply to List. Providing a 'Reply to List' button so that you don't have to use the keyboard is a perfectly sane feature request. But I would consider it to be a separate request. This strikes me being a DWIM feature so that the user only has to bash their head on the keyboard to get what they want as long as they've preconfigured it. In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure anything are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the first place. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a context-dependent action, for someone who knows what they're doing. I disagree. I have to consciously think I'm dealing with a mailing list post, so I don't want to click reply, I need to take my hand of the mouse before I start typing the reply and then do Ctrl-L, then put my hand back on the mouse to EDIT the message before starting to type. If I happen to be typing a quick reply to something on a list there is a distinct (and high) possibility that I will automatically click Reply. You want a Reply to List button. Alternatively, I already posted a patch which allows you to configure the existing 'Reply to All' button so that where possible it acts as 'Reply to List' instead -- falling back to 'Reply to All'. I'm still slightly dubious about that -- I think the actions should each do what they say they'll do. But at least it's still a *public* action, when you press the *public* reply button. Which brings us to... Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action, then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first place, which makes it rather pointless. Virtually all of the direct replies I get from posts on this list (and others) are from novice users - they do not realise they sent it directly to me, they thought they were sending to the list. And if I push the nag popup I've already implemented and tested in git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git, those users will get a pop-up warning saying You are replying in private to a list which came from a mailing list.. They'll have to *explicitly* choose reply privately or reply to all to continue. All of the direct replies from experienced users are usually followed within a few minutes by another email saying something like Sorry, I replied directly to you in my haste, that should have gone to the list. Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should have been public. Users will *always* get things wrong; even experienced users. The question is what failure mode do we want to encourage -- do we want to err on the side of sending private information out to the mailing list, which cannot be retracted and can lead to *very* bad things, or do we want to err on the side of sending responses to too few people, which is easily remedied? I think that any DWIM option which automatically chooses between *public* and *private* on behalf of the user is asking for trouble. But it's perfectly reasonable for you to want a Public DWIM option, which chooses only between reply-to-list and reply-to-all for you (and means you don't have to use the keyboard for that). That's what I did in http://bugzilla-attachments.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=165799 -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that anyway just because it changes the size of the button. I would say so. Main window's toolbar should remain static. Just to throw another idea out there... Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem. They define dedicated Reply to Sender and Reply to List actions in their menus, but also a generic Reply action whose behavior for a mailing list post is determined by a user preference: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply I would probably reword the label, but same idea. How does that sound? I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and menu changes to a minimum here. So my proposal is: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or maybe overrides Reply-To munging? Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. This would work for me also.. One quick message to a user, one quick change (if not the default) and it would work great! Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:02 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. If we're exposing it in the UI *instead* of the existing 'Reply' action, then it really *has* to be private by default. The existing UI action sends private mail, and we can't sensibly change that. Least catastrophic failure mode and all that. So again it would only benefit those who are paying sufficient attention to configure it in the first place, which makes it rather pointless. One way around this would be to have a third state for the preference called ask me, and make that the default. So upon clicking Reply to a mailing list post with the preference in the ask me state, you get this prompt: Would you like to reply to the sender of the mailing list post Matthew Barnes mbar...@redhat.com or to the mailing list itself? evolution-list@gnome.org [x] Remember my choice for next time [ Cancel ] [ Reply to List ] [ Reply to Sender ] --- Checkmarking remember my choice would move the preference out of the ask me state, unless of course you click Cancel. Hm, still plenty of scope for a user to think that means *only* for the evolution list and say 'remember my choice', then to be surprised when they accidentally reply in public to *another* list which they may not even have realised was a list. Compare your 'ask me' mode with what's already implemented in my tree, though -- http://david.woodhou.se/reply-nag.png Do we really need the 'Remember my choice for next time' mode when the correct button is *RIGHT* *THERE* for the user to press if they wanted it? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 19:04 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 18:58 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: [...] I don't know about anyone else but I'm a bit lost. It seems like it shouldn't be too difficult to collect all the current relevant behavior into one table and then produce a second table showing the suggested new behavior. If we kept that and continued to update it I think more people would be able to follow the discussion and comment on it. The table should include menu items, keybindings, and buttons assigned to each action. Plus popup dialog notations where relevant. That sounds reasonable. I'll try and get round to it but it probably won't be till tomorrow. On second thoughts, the number of ideas being generated make it unlikely that I could keep this current, i.e. there are now multiple suggested new behaviors. I'm afraid you're going to have to read the thread (it's not *that* hard :-) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 12:09 +1000, Nick Jenkins wrote: I quite like the toolbar buttons, and people who are newer to Evo will probably use them more too. So maybe the toolbar buttons can be changed, but only when there's the appropriate list headers? Example toolbar buttons: Normal email: [ Reply ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ] A list email: [ Private Reply ] [ Reply to List ] [ Reply to All ] [ Forward ] I'm quite reluctant to change toolbar layout depending on the message. It will work for the inexpert user who consciously looks at the toolbar, but for many people clicking on an icon is a reflex action and muscle memory of where the icon is plays a large part. Note that changing menu items or shortcuts is a different matter. I think muscle memory plays a much less important role here, but I'm not an HI specialist. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 07:39 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Does that include changing the name of the 'Reply' button to read 'Private Reply'? I've got a patch for that, but I was dubious about that anyway just because it changes the size of the button. I would say so. Main window's toolbar should remain static. Just to throw another idea out there... Claws Mail has an interesting approach to this problem. They define dedicated Reply to Sender and Reply to List actions in their menus, but also a generic Reply action whose behavior for a mailing list post is determined by a user preference: [ ] Reply button invokes mailing list reply I would probably reword the label, but same idea. How does that sound? I don't suggest new preferences lightly, but I'd rather keep toolbar and menu changes to a minimum here. So my proposal is: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does, or maybe overrides Reply-To munging? Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: Then we can debate an appropriate default for the preference. I quite like this idea (especially the munging override), except that I'd make Ctrl+L fall back to Shift+Ctrl+R when no List-Post header is present. Note: The munging override can't undo all possible munging, e.g. if the munged Reply-To is different from the List-Post address, or if the sender had his own Reply-To which is now lost. With those caveats, I think it's a win. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:18 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: GRRR - reply-to-list doesn't even work on the reply you sent because you did a reply-to-all and I never got the list version of the message, only the direct message. Hence the Reply to all is NO SUBSTITUTE for Reply to list. This discussion is happening on the mailing list, please could you use Reply to list I'll try to remember. But please remember that like many people, I consider it extremely rude when you reply to my messages and drop me from Cc. So please *don't* use 'Reply to List' when replying to me. You want a Reply to List button. Sure, but I thought there was reluctance to add more buttons to the toolbar - I would be very happy with a Reply to list button, Yeah, adding more buttons is painful. So what do you think of having the option to change the existing 'Reply to All' button so that it does what 'Reply to List' does? Would that be sufficient? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:54 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: All of the direct replies from experienced users are usually followed within a few minutes by another email saying something like Sorry, I replied directly to you in my haste, that should have gone to the list. Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should have been public. [missing a not in there I think] I thought we were past that. I've already accepted your suggestion that Ctrl-R should not change behaviour, precisely for this reason. Let's not keep beating a dead horse. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:18 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: GRRR - reply-to-list doesn't even work on the reply you sent because you did a reply-to-all and I never got the list version of the message, only the direct message. Hence the Reply to all is NO SUBSTITUTE for Reply to list. This discussion is happening on the mailing list, please could you use Reply to list Agreed (in fact I already made the same point in an earlier reply to David), however in cases where the list headers are not present, Reply To All seems to be the only reasonable fallback. Currently it's a *manual* fallback requiring user intervention. The proposal is to automate it. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:05 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Experienced users do make mistakes, and may well have disabled the nag pop-up which saves the novice users. But still this is a *much* better failure mode than accidentally sending stuff to the list which should have been public. [missing a not in there I think] I thought we were past that. So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the existing private Reply button with a new Reply button that sometimes replies to the list. (At least, if that *wasn't* where the 'DWYTIM Reply' button was intended to go, I don't see what the point is). -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 13:05 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: In general, those who are sophisticated enough to preconfigure anything are perfectly capable of hitting the right buttons in the first place. There doesn't seem to be a lot of point in such a context-dependent action, for someone who knows what they're doing. The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless users who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes? No. You keep saying this is about getting stupid users to do the right thing. That may be your view but it was never part of the justification for my original proposal. I think you're having a Pavlovian politically-correct reaction to the word 'clueless'. Whatever terminology you prefer to use, I'm talking about this case: As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the same thing. Yes, I find the same thing, and the word *I* use for these users (including myself, on the occasions that I screw up) is clueless. Or stupid. I really do think we're talking about the same thing. I tend to give people who make the occasional mistake the benefit of the doubt and not assume they are idiots unless they persistently repeat the same mistakes. That's nice. I'm sure you're a lovely person. I prefer not to worry about whether my choice of words will make them cry or not, and see what I can do to make the software easier for them to use correctly. The point of the suggested changes is to make it easier for *anyone* to do the right thing in the most common case without having to think about it. The problem is that you *cannot* get it right in all circumstances. The best option is *not* to choose. Let the *user* tell Evolution what to do, and don't give them nasty surprises. And, obviously, make it *really* easy for them to tell Evolution what to do, and add the nag pop-ups when it looks like they may have made the wrong choice. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:42 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: The point of the suggested changes is to make it easier for *anyone* to do the right thing in the most common case without having to think about it. The problem is that you *cannot* get it right in all circumstances. Of course not, but that's not what I said or think. The best option is *not* to choose. Let the *user* tell Evolution what to do, and don't give them nasty surprises. And, obviously, make it *really* easy for them to tell Evolution what to do, and add the nag pop-ups when it looks like they may have made the wrong choice. Exactly. I don't think we disagree about any of that. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: I thought we were past that. So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the existing private Reply button with a new Reply button that sometimes replies to the list. IIRC Matthew had this as a user-configurable option. As long as the default case is not to do it, it's OK by me. We seem to be agreed on most things; I'm glad. What I have in my tree so far is hopefully just stuff we can all agree on: 1. Nag popup for you are replying privately to a mailing list message 2. Nag popup for you are replying to all, to many recipients 3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup). 4. Fix two memory leaks. http://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git git://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git I think we can all agree on those, right? I'll probably turn *both* of those nags off personally, but I'll still benefit from novice users seeing them. Going back to the Reply button stuff... I agree that the default case needs to be *not* to do it (where 'it' means replying in public). Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very much for the *really* novice users? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 15:30 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 09:30 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:40 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: I thought we were past that. So did I, but we are *still* seeing proposals which would replace the existing private Reply button with a new Reply button that sometimes replies to the list. IIRC Matthew had this as a user-configurable option. As long as the default case is not to do it, it's OK by me. We seem to be agreed on most things; I'm glad. What I have in my tree so far is hopefully just stuff we can all agree on: 1. Nag popup for you are replying privately to a mailing list message 2. Nag popup for you are replying to all, to many recipients Both of these are OK, as long as the usual conditions apply, i.e. the state is represented somewhere in the Preferences and can be reversed if the user changes his mind. 3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup). There needs to be an explicit per-message Reply To Author (Reply To Sender) because sometimes you want it and sometimes you don't. In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists) you really do. 4. Fix two memory leaks. If you say so. http://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git git://git.infradead.org/users/dwmw2/evolution.git I think we can all agree on those, right? I'll probably turn *both* of those nags off personally, but I'll still benefit from novice users seeing them. Going back to the Reply button stuff... I agree that the default case needs to be *not* to do it (where 'it' means replying in public). Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very much for the *really* novice users? Could be, but we're not just doing this for the novices. Experts also make the occasional mistake. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 10:47 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: 1. Nag popup for you are replying privately to a mailing list message 2. Nag popup for you are replying to all, to many recipients Both of these are OK, as long as the usual conditions apply, i.e. the state is represented somewhere in the Preferences and can be reversed if the user changes his mind. Yep. You get the 'Don't ask me again' in the pop-up itself, and you can also go into the preferences to turn it on/off: http://david.woodhou.se/reply-nag.png http://david.woodhou.se/evo-composer-prefs.png 3. A configuration option for ignoring Reply-To: when it matches a List-Post: header (just in prefs; no popup). There needs to be an explicit per-message Reply To Author (Reply To Sender) because sometimes you want it and sometimes you don't. It might *also* be nice to have a per-message 'Reply to From: address' action, I agree. I'm starting to wonder if we should just have a drop-down list for the reply options, like we do for forwarding :) But really, I don't think we want it to get that bad -- we don't want a proliferation of different options. In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists) you really do. The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists. Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address matches the address in a List-Post: header. Do you agree that *if* the user is sophisticated enough to actually go and configure it, they're probably the kind of user who can manage to press the correct button anyway? So this idea isn't likely to do very much for the *really* novice users? Could be, but we're not just doing this for the novices. Experts also make the occasional mistake. Absolutely. I'm just trying to focus the discussion. If we agree that it's not really for the novices, then we can concentrate on what the more experienced users need... -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:32 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists) you really do. The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists. Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address matches the address in a List-Post: header. I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On munged lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just hit Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to the sender I don't want to have to go change an option before trying to reply. That's why I need Reply To Author. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 11:15 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:32 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: In fact I think mostly you don't, but when you do (on munged lists) you really do. The current option, if enabled, *only* takes effect on munged lists. Specifically, it will only ignore a Reply-To: address if that address matches the address in a List-Post: header. I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On munged lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just hit Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to the sender I have exactly the same requirement, and consider it solved by the 'ignore reply-to on munged lists' option. If you want to reply to the author, just press the normal Reply button or Ctrl-R. If you want to reply to the list, hit 'Reply to List' or Ctrl-L. I don't want to have to go change an option before trying to reply. If it's turned on, you'd *certainly* never have to go and turn it off before trying to reply. By definition, the result of turning it off then using Ctrl-R is the *same* as just pressing Ctrl-L in the first place. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:04 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: I don't mind another option but it's not the whole solution. On munged lists (the Fedora list is the prime example) I almost always just hit Ctrl-L, but on the rare occasions I want to communicate privately to the sender I have exactly the same requirement, and consider it solved by the 'ignore reply-to on munged lists' option. If you want to reply to the author, just press the normal Reply button or Ctrl-R. If you want to reply to the list, hit 'Reply to List' or Ctrl-L. OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-R to RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-L to RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC to LP+CC Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens, toolbar changes etc. for now. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 12:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-R to RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-L to RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC to LP+CC Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens, toolbar changes etc. for now. Where 'to RT' of course means 'to RT if it exists, else SA'. And 'to LP' means 'to LP if it exists, else to RT+CC'.(which in turn means 'SA+CC' if there are no LP or RT headers, of course) All that is what I have implemented, *except* that there should be no 'LP+CC' in the Shift-Ctrl-R row. It's 'RT+CC' for the first three columns, and 'SA+CC' in the fourth where it ignores the Reply-To: header. I had proposed that I give you an *option* to change the Ctrl-Shift-R behaviour so that it precisely matches the Ctrl-L behaviour. But while we're ignoring the toolbar for now, that proposal makes no sense :) But really, I don't *want* to see a table like this. The behaviour should be *consistent* across all the columns, or we're just making things more confusing and making errors more *likely*. What we have right now is: Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header. Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients. Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as Ctrl-Shift-R. A List-Post: header is considered valid if it exists. A Reply-To: header is considered valid if it exists, *unless* the anti-munging option is set and there is a List-Post: header which contains the same address. If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-Rto RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-Lto RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-R to RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CC to LP+CC Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens, toolbar changes etc. for now. This all far too complicated. I thought the idea was to help people who forget (and people who are unaware) - call them stupid or clueless if you like - to reply to the list preferentially rather than to a personal address. The above options (if I understand them) do nothing to achieve that - you *STILL* have to press ctrl-L to reply to the list. I think this discussion is not going anywhere near achieving what I thought the aim was. I vote that we forget about the whole thing and just put a Reply-to-list button on the tool bar. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header. Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients. Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as Ctrl-Shift-R. I feel like I'm trailing along behind everyone else, but: When you say Cc: recipients, you also mean the To: values of course, right? It should be all the recipients in both the CC and TO lists, except for the current user [*]. What I'd really like to see is a reply publicly operation, which is the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and the standard button), which by default does the right thing to create a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc. This right thing would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on List-Post headers). I'm also happy if there are alternatives for specific situations. Someone mentioned having a drop-down list off the reply to all button, like we do for forward, and actually I think that might be a good solution. By default have the reply publicly button do the heuristic reply to everyone (I guess this would be more-or-less equivalent to the Ctrl-L operation above), then have some drop-down menu options for alternatives. A preference that lets you select your preferred default reply publicly operation would be nice as well (I think we have something like that for forward). The values could be Best effort (default), All recipients, etc. [*] I've filed a bugzilla a few months ago against a VERY annoying new feature of Evo where extra entries on the To list get added to the CC list on reply to all, rather than the distinction being preserved. I hate that!! ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 19:15 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote: OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-R to RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-L to RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CCto LP+CC Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens, toolbar changes etc. for now. This all far too complicated. I thought the idea was to help people who forget (and people who are unaware) - call them stupid or clueless if you like - to reply to the list preferentially rather than to a personal address. The above options (if I understand them) do nothing to achieve that - you *STILL* have to press ctrl-L to reply to the list. That depends on whether or not you set the option David suggests. My original proposal of forcing Ctrl-R to go to the list seemed a good idea at the time but I'm persuaded that a default that would make replies unintentionally public is worse than the current situation of making them unintentionally private. I think this discussion is not going anywhere near achieving what I thought the aim was. The aim has expanded a bit. We now consider doing something sensible with Ctrl-L when there are no list headers, plus being able to send a private reply even when the Reply-To field has been altered by list-management software. I vote that we forget about the whole thing and just put a Reply-to-list button on the tool bar. That's fine and should persuade more people to use Reply To List when appropriate (I wouldn't like to see it come and go, but greyed out when not applicable). poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:27 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: snip What I'd really like to see is a reply publicly operation, which is the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and the standard button), which by default does the right thing to create a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc. This right thing would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on List-Post headers). I wholeheartedly agree with this suggestion! It's basically the same I had in mind when I suggested the magic reply option. I have seen a lot of emphasis on the knowledgeable user who want power to reply exactly the way they want - I can understand! But for the majority, you just want to hit reply and have evolution do The Right Thing[TM]. I consider myself quite able to understand the different ways of replying to e-mail, and yet I find myself often having to manually edit the headers of a half-composed email, or discarding it and starting anew, because I forgot to reply the right way. And 99.999% of the time the right way described above fits my needs perfectly and the remaining .001% of the time I would be vary conscious of selecting the right option to reply. It's like my digital camera. I understand the need to be able to set the right exposure, focus distance, etc., but most of the time I simply want to set it to Auto and not bother with the details. I'm also happy if there are alternatives for specific situations. Someone mentioned having a drop-down list off the reply to all button, like we do for forward, and actually I think that might be a good solution. By default have the reply publicly button do the heuristic reply to everyone (I guess this would be more-or-less equivalent to the Ctrl-L operation above), then have some drop-down menu options for alternatives. Again, I agree. I don't want to take away the power to select exactly how to reply in specific instances. A preference that lets you select your preferred default reply publicly operation would be nice as well (I think we have something like that for forward). The values could be Best effort (default), All recipients, etc. That might actually be complicating things a bit too much, though. But if it was implemented, it could be that one option was to make it reply _privately_. (In that case it's name couldn't be Reply Publicly, though). If done, the pop-up (mentioned before) when replying to a list, could in fact be a pop-up asking you how you want to reply, and an option to set that as the default way to reply. Best, Kåre ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-R to RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-L to RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CCto LP+CC Does that fit with what you're thinking? I'm ignoring nag screens, toolbar changes etc. for now. Where 'to RT' of course means 'to RT if it exists, else SA'. And 'to LP' means 'to LP if it exists, else to RT+CC'.(which in turn means 'SA+CC' if there are no LP or RT headers, of course) Naturally. I'm assuming use the Reply-To header has its usual meaning, i.e. use it if it exists, otherwise use the From: address, and so on. All that is what I have implemented, *except* that there should be no 'LP+CC' in the Shift-Ctrl-R row. It's 'RT+CC' for the first three columns, and 'SA+CC' in the fourth where it ignores the Reply-To: header. Makes sense. My head started to spin a little when creating the table :-) But really, I don't *want* to see a table like this. The behaviour should be *consistent* across all the columns, or we're just making things more confusing and making errors more *likely*. The table is just between ourselves so we know we're on the same page. If by consistent you mean identical, I don't see how that's possible. The meaning of the various commands necessarily changes according to context. I agree this should be minimized, but I doubt it can be eliminated. What we have right now is: Ctrl-R: Uses the Reply-To: header if valid, else the From: header. Ctrl-Shift-R: Uses the same as Ctrl-R, and adds the Cc: recipients. Ctrl-L: Uses the List-Post: header if valid, else same as Ctrl-Shift-R. A List-Post: header is considered valid if it exists. A Reply-To: header is considered valid if it exists, *unless* the anti-munging option is set and there is a List-Post: header which contains the same address. How is that different from the table (with your amendments)? If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you? In addition to rather than instead of, to avoid mutable toolbars, but that's more a matter of personal taste. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:27 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: What I'd really like to see is a reply publicly operation, which is the standard one that is used by default (the standard key binding and the standard button), which by default does the right thing to create a public reply to the message, as best as can be discovered and interpreted by Evo based on RFC's, best practices, etc. This right thing would change based on the message being read (e.g., based on List-Post headers). Sure. It's really a matter of presentation rather than basic functionality, but if it makes it easier to use I'm all for it. I don't think this contradicts anything we've said up to now. Correct me if I'm wrong. [...] A preference that lets you select your preferred default reply publicly operation would be nice as well (I think we have something like that for forward). The values could be Best effort (default), All recipients, etc. +1 poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 15:21 -0400, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 18:34 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: Personal Reply Non-Munged List Munged List w/o Option Munged List with Option Ctrl-R to RT to RT to RT to SA Ctrl-L to RT+CCto LP to LP to LP Shift-Ctrl-Rto RT+CCto LP+CCto RT+CCto LP+CC Rest snipped. I've been trying to follow all this but am missing a key concept-- could someone just tell me and anybody else who doesn't already know: what is a munged list? And there seems to be mention of multiple kinds of munged lists, which is even more confusing. Thanks, G.Reeke ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 16:20 -0400, George Reeke wrote: I've been trying to follow all this but am missing a key concept-- could someone just tell me and anybody else who doesn't already know: what is a munged list? A munged list is one where the mailing list software resets the Reply-To: header on all email coming from the list to contain the mailing list address, overwriting whatever Reply-To: value might have been provided with the message originally (and forcing replies, even using the simple reply to sender button, to go to the entire list). http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html There may be other types of munging people are talking about but the above is the main one. Cheers! ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 20:47 +0200, Kåre Fiedler Christiansen wrote: A preference that lets you select your preferred default reply publicly operation would be nice as well (I think we have something like that for forward). The values could be Best effort (default), All recipients, etc. That might actually be complicating things a bit too much, though. But if it was implemented, it could be that one option was to make it reply _privately_. (In that case it's name couldn't be Reply Publicly, though). No, I don't agree with this. Today we have two buttons and two _main_ shortcuts: the buttons are reply, which results in Reply to Sender (Ctrl-R) in the menu, and Reply to All button and menu item (Shift-Ctrl-R). I'm not talking, myself, about any change to the reply to sender/Ctrl-R capability. Others have discussed trying to make it smarter in the face of reply-to munging by mailing lists; that would be nice but I'll leave that to others (I guess I just don't subscribe to any lists that do this so it doesn't bother me :-)). What I'm suggesting is that we retarget Reply to All (Shift-Ctrl-R) and the button to be, instead Reply Publicly (or you can keep it named Reply to All for all I care). This button would DTRT based on the message, to send a public reply. So, in this mode replies to mailing lists with List-Post headers would go there only. Otherwise it behaves as today. There are other ways that reply publicly might be implemented, just like there are multiple ways forward message might be implemented, and I suggested that we can have a drop-down list next to the reply publicly button allowing, on a per-instance basis, a different choice, similar to the one we have today for forward message. I further suggested that we might allow the user to choose a preferred way to reply publicly, similar to how we allow them to choose a preferred method for forwarding. If changed, this would be the way the button (and Ctrl-R) would behave, but the drop-down list would still be there. Sure. It's really a matter of presentation rather than basic functionality, but if it makes it easier to use I'm all for it. I don't think this contradicts anything we've said up to now. Correct me if I'm wrong. Well, this whole thing is mostly a matter of presentation :-). Anyway, as above there is one difference; I'm suggesting that the default key sequence (Shift-Ctrl-R) (and button, for those that care) for reply to all be made to run the user's preferred reply publicly method, which would default to smart reply (which is basically what in Dave's suggestion was going to bind to Ctrl-L). Basically I want the simple, straightforward, uncustomized operations that everyone uses to do the smart thing, where that is not egregiously bad (like potentially sending private replies to public lists). That means the standard keybindings, standard buttons, standard menu items. Then we can add customizations etc. for those who know better or have more advanced needs. What happens to other keybindings like Ctrl-L, I'm not sure. Anyway, that's my $0.02. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 14:51 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: How is that different from the table (with your amendments)? It's not. It's just a simpler way of saying it. An even simpler way is: - Ctrl-R replies privately to the sender, using their Reply-To: or From: - Ctrl-Shift-R replies to all recipients (and the sender). - Ctrl-L replies to the one mailing list from which *you* happened to receive *this* copy of the message, if it can work that out. Otherwise it acts like Ctrl-Shift-R does. - Oh, but beware that there are some mailing lists with a dirty hack which tries to trick your mailer into replying publicly to the list, when you asked for a private reply. There's an option to ignore the evil Reply-To: header in that case, and pretend it doesn't exist. If we just take that and add an option to add 'Reply to List' to the toolbar instead of 'Reply to All', how does that work for you? In addition to rather than instead of, to avoid mutable toolbars, but that's more a matter of personal taste. I concede to not really caring. I get the impression that there is resistance to the idea of adding more stuff to the toolbars, so we're more likely to get away with *changing* the 'Reply to All' button to act as 'Reply to List', based on a user configuration choice. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 08:52 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: I'm quite reluctant to change toolbar layout depending on the message. It will work for the inexpert user who consciously looks at the toolbar, but for many people clicking on an icon is a reflex action and muscle memory of where the icon is plays a large part. Note that changing menu items or shortcuts is a different matter. I think muscle memory plays a much less important role here, but I'm not an HI specialist. poc I agree with your first statement. And, menu items are changable without too much grief, but not shortcuts. The ones I bother to learn, I want to stay the way they are! If I press CTRL-Whatever, and something happens, it'll throw off my entire thought process if that something doesn't happen. Now, I have no experience with munged lists, so I can't make any intelligent input about them. And, I guess the statement made that simply adding a Reply To List button on the tool bar should be a separate request is valid. BUT, If it were included with the proposal you're making, it would most likely get done a whole lot quicker. This thread seems to have the movers and shakers contributing so I think this is the best chance I have. I am, and have been for years, a member of non-computer related lists. The people on these lists are simply not interested enough to learn CTRL-Anything. Call them what you will, they are simply not interested in computers, only using them with the least possible mental effort that will get most of what they want done. They look at the buttons and press their best guess. Reply doesn't go to the list, but reply to all will. They consider it better that the recipient delete the extra message than them go through all the extra effort of changing the header info. A Reply to List button would put Evolution way ahead of most Windows solutions, make it much easier for this type of user, and much easier for members of lists such as these. Therefore, I vote for including this button, and do what you will with the key shortcuts. Like a Windows user, I'll use the button if/when it becomes available and won't have the shock of CTRL-L being changed. Bart ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:15 -0400, Paul Smith wrote: What I'm suggesting is that we retarget Reply to All (Shift-Ctrl-R) and the button to be, instead Reply Publicly (or you can keep it named Reply to All for all I care). OK, I can agree with that. This button would DTRT based on the message, to send a public reply. So, in this mode replies to mailing lists with List-Post headers would go there only. Otherwise it behaves as today. The problem with that suggestion is that there are people (including myself) who firmly believe that the right thing to do with a list message is to *include* the original sender when replying, unless you're sure they don't want you to. There are plenty of reasons for this The sender may not be subscribed to the list, and even if they are subscribed they may not be looking in that folder very often, if ever. It would be *extremely* rude to drop them from Cc when you're replying to them. Even if they are subscribed (and looking in that folder) there may also be a substantial delay to receiving mails through the mailing list, which will introduce significantly more latency than if the active participants are directly in Cc, and detract from the conversation. Let's not argue about that too much -- we won't make any progress. Let's just recognise that this 'DTRT' thing that you suggest is hard when we can't agree on what TRT is. But I have already¹ posted a patch which *optionally* makes the existing 'Reply to All' button do what you propose, so you can set that option if you want. And yes, I also say that you can keep it named Reply to All for all I care, so that's what I did. -- dwmw2 ¹ I think I did, at least. If not it'll only take five minutes. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 17:15 -0400, Paul Smith wrote:
What I'm suggesting is that we retarget Reply to All (Shift-Ctrl-R)
and the button to be, instead Reply Publicly (or you can keep it named
Reply to All for all I care). This button would DTRT based on the
message, to send a public reply. So, in this mode replies to mailing
lists with List-Post headers would go there only. Otherwise it behaves
as today.
I don't think there's any particular need to retarget Ctrl-Shift-R. If
you're using the keyboard, you already have Ctrl-L (although see below).
Likewise, there's no point in changing the menu items -- you have
Reply / Reply to All / Reply to List there too, and can just use the one
you want.
The request that really seems justified is the one for the *toolbar*. So
here's a patch which gives you the option to change the 'Reply to All'
button into a 'Reply in Public' button.
I haven't exposed the option in the UI; you can set it in gconf
manually. Hopefully that way it isn't considered to be violating the HIG
by changing the toolbar at runtime.
There was a request to have a keystroke that's enabled at all times (not
just for list messages) and which has the same 'reply to list or all'
behaviour. I don't see how to do that easily, so I haven't done it. Just
reassigning the Ctrl-L keystroke to the 'reply in public' GtkAction when
that gconf option is enabled would mean that the accelerator disappears
from the 'Reply to List' item in the menu. Someone who cares more for
this reply-to-list nonsense might spend more time trying to work it
out... :)
diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 74f0e7c..880d582 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -913,6 +913,21 @@ action_mail_reply_all_cb (GtkAction *action,
}
static void
+action_mail_reply_public_cb (GtkAction *action,
+EMailReader *reader)
+{
+ GConfClient *gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+ gboolean reply_public = gconf_client_get_bool (gconf,
+
/apps/evolution/mail/composer/reply_public, NULL);
+ guint32 state = e_mail_reader_check_state (reader);
+
+ if (reply_public (state E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST))
+ e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, NULL, REPLY_MODE_LIST);
+ else
+ action_mail_reply_all_cb(action, reader);
+}
+
+static void
action_mail_reply_list_cb (GtkAction *action,
EMailReader *reader)
{
@@ -1537,6 +1552,7 @@ static GtkActionEntry mail_reader_entries[] = {
N_(Redirect (bounce) the selected message to someone),
G_CALLBACK (action_mail_redirect_cb) },
+ /* For the menu item and key shortcut */
{ mail-reply-all,
mail-reply-all,
N_(Reply to _All),
@@ -1544,6 +1560,14 @@ static GtkActionEntry mail_reader_entries[] = {
N_(Compose a reply to all the recipients of the selected message),
G_CALLBACK (action_mail_reply_all_cb) },
+ /* For the toolbar item (which can become 'Reply in Public') */
+ { mail-reply-public,
+ mail-reply-all,
+ N_(Reply to _All),
+ NULL,
+ N_(Compose a reply to all the recipients of the selected message),
+ G_CALLBACK (action_mail_reply_public_cb) },
+
{ mail-reply-list,
NULL,
N_(Reply to _List),
@@ -2236,6 +2260,7 @@ static void
mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader,
guint32 state)
{
+ GConfClient *gconf;
EShell *shell;
EShellBackend *shell_backend;
EShellSettings *shell_settings;
@@ -2520,6 +2545,24 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader,
action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
+ action_name = mail-reply-public;
+ sensitive = have_enabled_account single_message_selected;
+ action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
+ gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
+
+ gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+ if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf,
/apps/evolution/mail/composer/reply_public, NULL)) {
+ g_object_set (action, tooltip,
+ _(Compose a public reply to the message),
+ NULL);
+ gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _(Reply in _Public));
+ } else {
+ g_object_set (action, tooltip,
+ _(Compose a reply to all the recipients of the
selected message),
+ NULL);
+ gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _(Reply to _All));
+ }
+
action_name = mail-reply-list;
sensitive = have_enabled_account single_message_selected
selection_is_mailing_list;
@@ -2781,6 +2824,10 @@ e_mail_reader_init (EMailReader *reader)
action =
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
The real target of this automatic behaviour would be the clueless users who don't really think about what they're doing -- yes? Plus more importantly the vast silent majority of people, who want their email client to have sensible defaults, so they can just start using it for its intended purpose, without having to tweak every available knob/preference/gconf-setting for hours beforehand, in order to get it into a vaguely sane configuration, that it should have shipped with in the first place. OK, let's summarize (RT = Reply-To address, LP = List-Post address, SA = Sender or From Address, CC = CC addresses): This all far too complicated. Agreed. If it's a user-facing change that too complicated to understand easily or explain simply, and you need to refer to a table to work out what the heck is going to happen, then I'm deeply opposed to it, on the basis that most ordinary users won't understand it either. This approach of making the proposal ever-more complex, only results in reduced consensus, thus snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. So my proposal is: This earlier proposal sounds good to me, it makes good common sense. Can we focus on salvaging the bits that are straightforward, unambiguous, and we have consensus for, please? That proposal, incorporating most consensus feedback, is something like this: - == Behaviours == Same as original, except the Reply to Sender munging was kept separate, and the Reply to List action was updated to incorporate further feedback: Reply(Ctrl+R) : Replies to sender on private emails, configurable for mailing list posts. Reply to Sender : Works like Reply currently does. Munging is left as a separate proposal. Reply to List(Ctrl+L) : No change for mailing list posts. For all other messages, does reply to all. Reply to All (Shift+Ctrl+R) : For mailing list posts, put list address in To:, sender in Cc: == Preferences == A three-state radio button specifying how to handle replies to mailing lists. This probably goes under Edit - Preferences - Mail Preferences (or Composer Preferences) - General tab, although these tabs are getting kind of crowded, so maybe it might have to go under a new Mailing lists tab instead. Defaults to Ask me. When replying to mailing list messages: ( ) Reply to the mailing list. ( ) Reply to the sender only. (*) Ask me how to reply. == Dialog boxes == One additional dialog box, which appears when the user replies to a mailing list message, and has the ask me preference selected: Would you like to reply to the sender of the mailing list post Matthew Barnes mbar...@redhat.com or to the mailing list itself? evolution-list@gnome.org [ ] Remember my choice for all mailing list replies [ Cancel ] [ Reply to List ] [ Reply to Sender ] --- Checking remember my choice would move the preference out of the ask me state, unless you click Cancel. == Toolbar buttons == No change based on whether it's a list message, as modifying toolbar buttons on the fly violates the Gnome UI guidelines. - The result of the above is that we get smarter Ctrl-R behaviour for mailing lists (with full user control), plus we gain a useful general Ctrl-L shortcut. Do we have general consensus on the above simplified list-replying proposal? Then the Reply to Sender munging can be handled separately, as a distinct proposal, with a separate preference. As can the Reply to List toolbar button. -- All the best, Nick. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Wed, 2010-07-14 at 23:31 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: This button would DTRT based on the message, to send a public reply. So, in this mode replies to mailing lists with List-Post headers would go there only. Otherwise it behaves as today. The problem with that suggestion is that there are people (including myself) who firmly believe that the right thing to do with a list message is to *include* the original sender when replying, unless you're sure they don't want you to. And there are probably an equal number who believe the contrary, like me, but let's not argue about it. I think Paul's suggestion that the default behaviour for Reply Publicly be configurable in a similar way to Forward is a good solution here. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 23:45 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:25 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: [...] I've filed an Enhancement Request at https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204 Feel free to add comments there. Matthew Barnes has shown interest in implementing this but wants to get a sense of whether people are generally in favour or not. I'd like to ask you to take a look at the proposal at the above URL and either add comments on the BZ page itself or in this list thread. We'd be particularly interested in hearing any arguments as to why this would *not* be a good idea. I would recommend consulting with a usability expert for this case. In the recent past, we (me/sankar and some more people) noticed a HR hit reply and assumed that the mail was being sent to the sender while the ReplyTo field was munged to point to mailing list. And the confidential mail (with some compensation info :D) was sent to everyone in the list. So this is debatable, whether it was a mistake on the HR who was not aware of the functioning of mailing lists or the munging of ReplyTo header :) So we might need to keep in mind these kind of users as well.. Can reply be assumed that it can point to mailing-list or may be if the software knows its a mailing-list, would it be better to say ReplyToList instead of Reply ? In this case speaking about the tool-bar options, not the short-cuts. - Chenthill. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
Can reply be assumed that it can point to mailing-list or may be if the software knows its a mailing-list, would it be better to say ReplyToList instead of Reply ? In this case speaking about the tool-bar options, not the short-cuts. Yes, can it not be implemented by changing the Reply to All toolbar button to be Reply to List when there are List headers (including changing the text and button itself?) - that way a Reply will still go to the person as is expected within the UI, but there is a simple obvious option to reply-to-list. P. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list. As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the same thing. An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and don't do Reply-To munging. For those that do munge the Reply-To field, a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the case with these lists so nothing is lost. That's just munging in a different place. As it is, I have the *choice*: - I can hit Ctrl-R to reply to you alone. - I can hit Ctrl-Shift-R to reply to you and the list. - I can hit Ctrl-L to reply to the list. Just like the people who advocate using a Reply-To: header, you're trying to take away my choices and make one or more of those keystrokes actually do something _other_ than what I wanted. (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long thread about munging, which that list does do.) poc PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you *really* want to say something to me personally :-) If you reply to this, please make sure you don't drop me from Cc. I may only look at the list sporadically (or indeed never; I may not even be subscribed -- someone may have redirected your mail to me because they knew I'd be interested). It'd be very rude not to Cc me in your reply. That's why I almost never use the Ctrl-L option on mailing lists, unless I notice that someone asked for it. In the general case, it's much easier for someone to deal with having two copies, than it is for them to deal with having *none*. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:13 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list. As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the same thing. An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and don't do Reply-To munging. For those that do munge the Reply-To field, a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the case with these lists so nothing is lost. That's just munging in a different place. As it is, I have the *choice*: - I can hit Ctrl-R to reply to you alone. - I can hit Ctrl-Shift-R to reply to you and the list. - I can hit Ctrl-L to reply to the list. Just like the people who advocate using a Reply-To: header, you're trying to take away my choices and make one or more of those keystrokes actually do something _other_ than what I wanted. Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long thread about munging, which that list does do.) poc PS If you reply to this, please make sure it goes to the list unless you *really* want to say something to me personally :-) If you reply to this, please make sure you don't drop me from Cc. I may only look at the list sporadically (or indeed never; I may not even be subscribed -- someone may have redirected your mail to me because they knew I'd be interested). It'd be very rude not to Cc me in your reply. Since you request it, that's what I did. Most people don't do that, which is why I usually use Reply To List. Under my proposed scheme, exactly the same would apply. That's why I almost never use the Ctrl-L option on mailing lists, unless I notice that someone asked for it. In the general case, it's much easier for someone to deal with having two copies, than it is for them to deal with having *none*. That's more a comment on list netiquette than the mechanics of how the MUA works. I can't recall anyone ever asking explicitly for Ctrl-L (except in the course of discussions about how to reply to lists) but perhaps your experience is different. In any case, you can continue to use Shift-Ctrl-R with the effect you desire. Note that what I'm proposing isn't original. Kmail already works this way. In fact I got the idea when I read http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To: and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message? But in that case... - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To: and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message? Um, I mean like that message was when I _sent_ it, and the copy you received directly. With you in Cc. For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :) -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To: and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message? But in that case... - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option? There is no Reply To List Only. There's Reply To List, and that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a Reply To List Only be different? poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:31 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Note that I'm sending this to you, CC the list (using Shift-Ctrl-R). How are you receiving it? One copy came straight to me, and landed in my inbox (intact). Another copy came to me via the list, and because it arrived with Return-Path: evolution-list-boun...@gnome.org was filed into the lists/evo folder. It also seems to be intact -- To: me, Cc: list. I think mailman's options for whether to drop duplicates and whether to drop you from the headers are a per-recipient option. Which I will have turned off. It may also be the case that mailman will strip list members from the Cc: header but not from the To: header. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To: and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message? But in that case... - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option? Yes, at least me. A reply to a list should go to the list, full stop, end of story; at least IMO. rantIf the poster says CC-me-I'm-not-on-the-list I say too-damn-bad and very consciously ignore that request; 99.44% of the time that's just someone wanting to get the benefits of the list without participating. Why should anyone bother to reply to someone who will obviously and explicitly never reply to them?/rant -- Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :) I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the CC header, it just wasn't used). Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates. If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be discarded by Cyrus. -- Adam Tauno Williams awill...@whitemice.org LPIC-1, Novell CLA http://www.whitemiceconsulting.com OpenGroupware, Cyrus IMAPd, Postfix, OpenLDAP, Samba ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:08 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: Reply To List. .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option? Yes, at least me. A reply to a list should go to the list, full stop, end of story; at least IMO. Of course. That's exactly what I proposed. David seems to have misunderstood something here. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:34 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 14:46 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 09:07 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Well, no. I'm advocating: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). Ah -- so a purely cosmetic change, just moving recipients between To: and Cc: headers but still sending the reply to the _same_ set of addresses as before? That seems reasonable enough. Like this message? But in that case... - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. .. won't some people still want the 'Reply to List only' option? There is no Reply To List Only. There's Reply To List, and that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a Reply To List Only be different? Um, sorry if I'm being dim... but that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R seems different to what you said you were advocating, which was: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. It seems to me that you're actually suggesting: - Reply to Author (i.e. Ctrl-R) to reply to the list, not be private. - Reply to All to do the same as now but with cosmetic differences. If you really want to mollycoddle the idiots who can't manage to press the right button, how about a pop-up which says: = You are replying personally to the author of a message which you received via a mailing list. Did you really mean to reply privately, or did you mean use the Reply to All action? [x] Never ask me this stupid question again. [ Reply privately ] [ Reply to All ] = We could also change the Reply button and menu item to say Private Reply when it's a list message. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :) I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the CC header, it just wasn't used). Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates. If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be discarded by Cyrus. Ah, thanks for that. IIRC that horrid behaviour can't be disabled either, can it? I was trying to remember a few days ago why I never even *considered* using Cyrus; you've just reminded me :) -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:17 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: There is no Reply To List Only. There's Reply To List, and that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R. How would a Reply To List Only be different? Um, sorry if I'm being dim... but that's what they'll get with Ctrl-R seems different to what you said you were advocating, which was: - Reply To Author to reply to you alone. - Reply To All to CC the author and reply to the list (the reverse of the current situation). - Ctrl-L to disappear, and Ctrl-R to change to reflect that it's Reply To List. It seems to me that you're actually suggesting: - Reply to Author (i.e. Ctrl-R) to reply to the list, not be private. No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. - Reply to All to do the same as now but with cosmetic differences. If you really want to mollycoddle the idiots who can't manage to press the right button, how about a pop-up which says: = You are replying personally to the author of a message which you received via a mailing list. Did you really mean to reply privately, or did you mean use the Reply to All action? Or the Reply To List action. [x] Never ask me this stupid question again. [ Reply privately ] [ Reply to All ] = Maybe. I have no opinion on this. We could also change the Reply button and menu item to say Private Reply when it's a list message. I guess. Doesn't do anything for those who use Ctrl-R of course. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message? -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message? Message-Reply To Author poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:49 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message? Message-Reply To Author That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies is asking for trouble. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:24 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0400, Adam Tauno Williams wrote: For some bizarre reason, the copy that came back to me through mailman had stripped you from Cc. Yay for munging. :) I think that's because Mailman removes duplicates. If you weren't on the list you would have received the CC, but as you are, you don't. It's not munging as such within the meaning of the Act (the message still has the CC header, it just wasn't used). Many [good] mail stores like Cyrus IMAP will also discard duplicates. If you replied to this message and CC'd one of those messages would be discarded by Cyrus. Ah, thanks for that. IIRC that horrid behaviour can't be disabled either, can it? Yes, it can if some crazy person wants multiple [utterly pointless] copies of the same message. /etc/imapd.conf: duplicatesuppression: 0 quote If enabled, lmtpd will suppress delivery of a message to a mailbox if a message with the same message-id (or resent-message-id) is recorded as having already been delivered to the mailbox. Records the mailbox and message-id/resent-message-id of all successful deliveries./quote I was trying to remember a few days ago why I never even *considered* using Cyrus; you've just reminded me :) Can't imagine why not. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:18 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:49 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 15:50 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 10:12 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: No no no. Reply To Author is a reply to the author (sender) of the message, i.e. what you get currently with Ctrl-R, and what you'll still get with Ctrl-R when it's not a list message. This is very explicit in the original proposal. Sorry if it isn't clear. So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message? Message-Reply To Author That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies is asking for trouble. That's the whole essence of the original proposal. Your comments on the BZ page lead me to think that you had understood this since you made a counterproposal, to wit: Currently, the 'reply to list' function does nothing if the list headers aren't detected. Perhaps we could make it do the same as 'reply to all' in that case, and then the people who want this feature could just bind the 'reply to list' function to the Ctrl-Shift-R keystroke? To which I replied: Making Reply To List turn into Reply To All when no list headers are present is not a bad alternative. I don't see the need for changing the keystroke binding since Ctrl-L would Just Work. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 16:18 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: So how would you get Reply to Author if it _is_ a list message? Message-Reply To Author That's a *really* bad idea. The standard reply button and Ctrl-R should give a *private* reply. Changing that to suddenly send *public* replies is asking for trouble. I'm afraid I agree with David (assuming I understand the proposal correctly). Having standard key sequences and buttons change meaning based on whether the message being replied to is a list or not seems like bad design to me. I would definitely swear at such software daily. Even moreso if, as David mentions, you change from a normally private reply type to a public reply type. I would be OK with having a separate button that was reply to list that would be greyed out when the current message was not a list message, or something. I'm afraid I don't agree with the militant publicists here: there are definitely not-rare times when I want to reply to a person privately, even from a public mailing list. I don't agree that just because a correspondence starts publicly, it's required that all aspects of that correspondence remain public at all times. ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:06 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote: How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted? /humor It's tempting ... :-) poc bg: Top-posting is how we can distinguish people who think from those who only react :-) Brewster -- *** Embrace a sharing community of sustainable justice low-carbon diversity *** W. Brewster Gillett b...@fdi.usPortland, OR USA *** Simply because you don't like to hear it, that doesn't make it untrue. *** ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 11:44 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
I would prefer David's counter-proposal (see parallel thread or the BZ
page) in which Reply To List has the effect of Reply To All when list
headers are not detected (currently it does nothing so there's nothing
to lose).
Actually, the action behind the scenes _does_ already fall back to
'Reply to All'. It's just that the Ctrl-L keystroke isn't _enabled_
unless it's a list message. We could fix that, or perhaps we could
just give you a hidden gconf option to make 'reply to all' actually
reply to the list where appropriate.
But that's a separate issue to your complaint that people reply
privately when they shouldn't.
Here's some code which will hopefully discourage that behaviour. Can
anyone tell me why the option in the composer prefs doesn't actually
work? It doesn't toggle the gconf key. But if I set it manually with
gconf-editor, it all works fine (and using the 'Don't ask me again'
checkbox also turns it off).
I'm unsure about changing the button text to 'Private Reply'. It's nice
and obvious... but it changes the size of the button.
diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
index 795dfcd..26048c5 100644
--- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c
+++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c
@@ -31,6 +31,7 @@
#include e-util/e-binding.h
#include e-util/e-charset.h
#include e-util/e-util.h
+#include e-util/e-alert-dialog.h
#include e-util/gconf-bridge.h
#include shell/e-shell-utils.h
#include widgets/misc/e-popup-action.h
@@ -836,7 +837,41 @@ static void
action_mail_reply_sender_cb (GtkAction *action,
EMailReader *reader)
{
- e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, REPLY_MODE_SENDER);
+ gint mode = REPLY_MODE_SENDER;
+ GConfClient *gconf;
+
+ gconf = mail_config_get_gconf_client ();
+ if (gconf_client_get_bool (gconf,
/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply, NULL)
+ e_mail_reader_check_state(reader)
E_MAIL_READER_SELECTION_IS_MAILING_LIST) {
+ GtkDialog *dialog;
+ GtkWidget *content_area, *check;
+ gint response;
+
+ dialog = (GtkDialog*) e_alert_dialog_new_for_args
(e_mail_reader_get_window (reader),
+
mail:ask-list-private-reply, NULL);
+
+ /*Check buttons*/
+ check = gtk_check_button_new_with_mnemonic (_(_Do not ask me
again.));
+ gtk_container_set_border_width((GtkContainer *)check, 12);
+ content_area = gtk_dialog_get_content_area (dialog);
+ gtk_box_pack_start (GTK_BOX (content_area), check, TRUE, TRUE,
0);
+ gtk_widget_show (check);
+
+ response = gtk_dialog_run ((GtkDialog *) dialog);
+
+ if (gtk_toggle_button_get_active(GTK_TOGGLE_BUTTON(check)))
+ gconf_client_set_bool(gconf,
/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply, FALSE, NULL);
+
+ gtk_widget_destroy((GtkWidget *)dialog);
+
+ if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_YES)
+ mode = REPLY_MODE_ALL;
+ else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_OK)
+ mode = REPLY_MODE_LIST;
+ else if (response == GTK_RESPONSE_CANCEL)
+ return;
+ }
+ e_mail_reader_reply_to_message (reader, mode);
}
static void
@@ -2411,6 +2446,13 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader)
sensitive = have_an_account single_message_selected;
action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name);
gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive);
+ if (selection_is_mailing_list) {
+ gtk_action_set_label(action, _(Private Reply));
+ gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _(Private Reply));
+ } else {
+ gtk_action_set_label(action, _(Reply));
+ gtk_action_set_short_label(action, _(Reply));
+ }
action_name = mail-save-as;
sensitive = any_messages_selected;
diff --git a/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in b/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
index 5ab3e37..50a6917 100644
--- a/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
+++ b/mail/evolution-mail.schemas.in
@@ -1051,6 +1051,22 @@
/locale
/schema
+schema
+ key/schemas/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply/key
+ applyto/apps/evolution/mail/prompts/private_list_reply/applyto
+ ownerevolution-mail/owner
+ typebool/type
+ defaultfalse/default
+ locale name=C
+ shortPrompt when replying privately to list messages/short
+ long
+ It disables/enables the repeated prompts to warn that you are
+sending a private reply to a message which arrived via a
+mailing list.
+ /long
+ /locale
+/schema
+
!-- Trash settings --
schema
diff --git a/mail/mail-config.ui b/mail/mail-config.ui
index ce2a198..3817d06 100644
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 10:14 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: Note: this is a comment on Evo itself, rather than the Evo list. As someone who posts quite a lot on this list, I'm forever having to deal with people replying to my personal address rather than the list address. Of course they should be using Reply To List (Ctrl-L) or even Reply-To-All (Shift-Ctrl-R) but occasionally they forget and use just Reply (Ctrl-R) so one has to remind them. I'm sure other frequent contributors find the same thing. An obvious solution to this is to do what Kmail does. When the message being replied to contains a List-Post header, Ctrl-R should do the same as Ctrl-L. There should also be a Reply-To-Author command for the rare case when the reply should be directed to the message Reply-To field, presumably the author's personal address. This would work on lists, including this one, which follow RFC-2822 and don't do Reply-To munging. For those that do munge the Reply-To field, a reply to the author would require some editing, but that's already the case with these lists so nothing is lost. (Those who follow the Fedora Users list will know there's been a long thread about munging, which that list does do.) I've rethought this proposal in the light of comments by several people, particularly David Woodhouse. This proposal supersedes the original and seeks to minimize trauma and give some extra funcionality: When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R). When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e. it replies to the List-Post address only. In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now. A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To and do the same as Ctrl-R. poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 12:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R). When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e. it replies to the List-Post address only. That can be rephrased as simply enable the Reply-to-list option even when not looking at a list message. Or, in 'diff -up' form: diff --git a/mail/e-mail-reader.c b/mail/e-mail-reader.c index 795dfcd..1b6c518 100644 --- a/mail/e-mail-reader.c +++ b/mail/e-mail-reader.c @@ -2402,8 +2437,7 @@ mail_reader_update_actions (EMailReader *reader) gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive); action_name = mail-reply-list; - sensitive = have_an_account single_message_selected - selection_is_mailing_list; + sensitive = have_an_account single_message_selected; action = e_mail_reader_get_action (reader, action_name); gtk_action_set_sensitive (action, sensitive); But if you want a key-combo which does this reply to all or list thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that. Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu item is enabled even on non-list messages. In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now. A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To and do the same as Ctrl-R. That's a really good idea, and I'd probably make an option for the normal reply to do that. After all, that's what the normal reply option is *supposed* to do. -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 17:48 +0100, David Woodhouse wrote: On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 12:01 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: When the message being replied to is *not* a list message (i.e. the List-* headers -- specifically List-Post -- are not present), then everything works as now, except that Reply To List (Ctrl-L) has the same effect as Reply To All (Shift-Ctrl-R). When List-Post is present, Ctrl-L has the same effect as currently, i.e. it replies to the List-Post address only. That can be rephrased as simply enable the Reply-to-list option even when not looking at a list message. Or, in 'diff -up' form: Sure, I was trying to be very explicit. [...] But if you want a key-combo which does this reply to all or list thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that. That's different. Consider a list message with a CC line. Reply To List replies only to the list. Reply To All replies also to the CC recipients. Both are valid options. Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu item is enabled even on non-list messages. The text can change to Reply To All, keeping the shortcut. Sure, that gives two shortcuts for the same action (Ctrl-L and Shift-Control-R) but it wouldn't be the first time, e.g. in mail mode both Ctrl-N and Shift-Control-M bring up the new message composer. In all cases, Reply To Sender (Ctrl-R) works exactly as now. A new Reply To Author action (no shortcut) replies only to the message originator, even when the message is from a munged list. Munged lists are detected by comparing the Reply-To header with the List-Post header (note that the former is an address while the latter is a URI). If they don't match, do the same as Ctrl-R. If they do match, ignore Reply-To and do the same as Ctrl-R. That's a really good idea, and I'd probably make an option for the normal reply to do that. After all, that's what the normal reply option is *supposed* to do. Hmm, a de-munging MUA. I'll reserve judgment on that one :-) poc ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, 2010-07-13 at 13:03 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: But if you want a key-combo which does this reply to all or list thing, then I suspect you'd do better to use Ctrl-Shift-R and the patch in https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624204#c8 for that. That's different. Consider a list message with a CC line. Reply To List replies only to the list. Reply To All replies also to the CC recipients. Both are valid options. Yes, that's true. Otherwise we'll get users being confused that the 'Reply to list' menu item is enabled even on non-list messages. The text can change to Reply To All, keeping the shortcut. Sure, that gives two shortcuts for the same action (Ctrl-L and Shift-Control-R) but it wouldn't be the first time, e.g. in mail mode both Ctrl-N and Shift-Control-M bring up the new message composer. OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All' buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used. You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making it change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an existing 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the Message menu). -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 18:06 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote: On Mon, 2010-07-12 at 16:01 -0600, Bart wrote: How about a little piece of code that looks at the message and, if it's going to a list, nags you if you've top posted? /humor It's tempting ... :-) (: ˙˙˙uʍop-ǝpısdn ʇxǝʇ ɹıǝɥʇ uɹnʇ ʇı ǝʞɐɯ ʇsnɾ plnoɔ noʎ ɹO -- dwmw2 ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
Re: [Evolution] Reply for list messages should go back to the list
On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 20:35, David Woodhouse dw...@infradead.org wrote: snip OK, that's more complex then... because in the general case it's not really OK to turn *either* of the existing 'Reply' or 'Reply to All' buttons into a 'Reply to List' button. They're both used. You could add a third button, I suppose... but then why bother making it change to 'Reply to All' for non-list messages, when there's an existing 'Reply to All' button right next to it? (As there is in the Message menu). It seems to me that people are split in two camps: * Those who want full control over who to reply to when, and same short-cuts always * Those who want Evolution to try to be intelligent about where to reply to, by somehow magically detecting the appropriate way to reply Why not do both? Add a configuration option to Use magic reply (with an appropriate help text to explain what it does) that replies to list when list-headers are present, to reply-to address when that's present, and to sender if neither are present. An option to reply privately could then be added to the menu, to override the magic behavior (that option could even be useful in non-magic contexts when you want to ignore the reply-to header). (I'm writing this from GMail, that has a lot poorer behavior for replies than either the current Evolution behavior or any one suggested in this thread...) Best, Kåre -- Kåre Fiedler Christiansen ___ evolution-list mailing list evolution-list@gnome.org To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-list
