[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind reading
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : A while back someone posted an explanation of a mind-reading double act that had fooled the experts. These demonstrations in which the audience put random items onto a tray and then the sender asks the receiver what he's holding and she's able to tell us usually involve a simple code. What made this act so baffling was that the performer was using the one-ahead routine. It would be agreed before the show that the first item held up that night would be a credit card. The coded message used by the sender would refer to the *next* item he was going to pick up and not the one he was actually holding aloft. Geddit? Simple but effective. That routine really tickled me. However I've now come across another method that also left the experts at a loss. Sam Loyd (Yank - 19th century) used to do a routine in which he would blindfold his son and have him stand with his back to the audience. A legit deck of cards would be shuffled by an audience member (not a stooge) who would then hold up each card in turn for Sam Loyd to see. Lloyd would gaze at the card and not say a word or move a muscle and eventually his son would announce Ace of Hearts and be correct. This would continue through the pack. So how was it done? Think about it and see if you can work it out. The solution is . . . Have your tiny brains worked it out yet? Awesomely simple . . . And it is? The son never spoke a word! Sam Loyd was a ventriloquist! Brilliant. There was a really good TV show about magicians and their art, and even though they didn't give any secrets away one of the featured illusionists said that one of the most important things a magician has to learn is how to make the audience think they are about to see something really difficult. He then proceeded to make Tower Bridge disappear before our eyes. While we are on the subject, you just might enjoy this: The Prestige (2006) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/ The Prestige (2006) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/ Directed by Christopher Nolan. With Christian Bale, Hugh Jackman, Scarlett Johansson, Michael Caine. Two stage magicians engage in competitive one-... View on www.imdb.com http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0482571/ Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind reading
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : There was a really good TV show about magicians and their art, and even though they didn't give any secrets away one of the featured illusionists said that one of the most important things a magician has to learn is how to make the audience think they are about to see something really difficult. He then proceeded to make Tower Bridge disappear before our eyes. While we are on the subject, you just might enjoy this: The Prestige (2006) || |||| The Prestige (2006) Directed by Christopher Nolan. With Christian Bale, Hugh Jackman, Scarlett Johansson, Michael Caine. Two stage magicians engage in competitive one-...|| | View on www.imdb.com |Preview by Yahoo | || Excellent early film by the director of Memento, the Black Knight Batman movies, Inception, and Interstellar.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
With good cause... in scientific basis, some while ago I wrote Hagelin and others in DLF memos with the idea about having DLF people in New York work at giving TM to UN staff aid workers, the career professionals who go out to troubled spots in the world in support of peace action. Good to see development on that in support of those folks. JaiGuruYou! LEnglish5 writes: By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Ummm. You keep on posting and I keep on responding. I wasn't complaining. I'm just impressed by the energy you put into it. I'm posting positive stuff about TM here and on reddit. Keep it up, it's fun. And who told you I was banned from the entire website? Where did I say you were? Or do I have to be so completely specific about everything? I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
This ignores the fact that when Benson asked the Dalai Lama for an intro to BUddhist practitioners of levitation, all he got were people hopping like a frog. But Buddhist Hopping Like a Frog is special, while TM Hopping Like a Frog isn't. It's always amusing to see people bring up issues that it is obvious they are guilty of and accuse someone else of being guilty of that same thing. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written. I love how convinced he is about it. Probably got that from Marshy, he always sounded like he knew what he was talking about just because he seemed convinced himself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? Hmmm ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : But the dome but-bouncers haven't even gotten to the first (frog-hopping) stage, so it's more a matter of objectivity rather than rudeness. .. As far as even close to being credible, (imo) a good second hand account would be the chapter in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi on the levitating Saint (a practitioner of Kriya Yoga). There are other accounts of Kriya Yogin levitators besides Yogananda's. .. In any event, the Traditions of a. Kriya Yoga and b. Christianity; may be good candidates for exploring possible examples of true levitation (hovering); in contrast to the TM Tradition which is a dud.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written. I love how convinced he is about it. Probably got that from Marshy, he always sounded like he knew what he was talking about just because he seemed convinced himself.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written. I love how convinced he is about it. Probably got that from Marshy, he always sounded like he knew what he was talking about just because he seemed convinced himself. Lawson is IMO a perfect example of the reason the TMO does research. Contrary to popular opinion, the research is NOT done to convince non-meditators of the efficacy of the meditation technique in order to sell TM to more new people. Nay, IMO the research is for the *existing* TMers who have been doing it for years *without any real experiences to speak of*. Unwilling to face this fact and maybe try some other technique that might actually deliver on its promises, they cling to the research and believe that if *others* are experiencing all of this cool stuff, then they should keep on keepin' on themselves. The TM research is to hold on to the organization's base and keep them following the carrot.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Interesting perspective, and there may be some truth to it. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Lawson is IMO a perfect example of the reason the TMO does research. Contrary to popular opinion, the research is NOT done to convince non-meditators of the efficacy of the meditation technique in order to sell TM to more new people. Nay, IMO the research is for the *existing* TMers who have been doing it for years *without any real experiences to speak of*. Unwilling to face this fact and maybe try some other technique that might actually deliver on its promises, they cling to the research and believe that if *others* are experiencing all of this cool stuff, then they should keep on keepin' on themselves. The TM research is to hold on to the organization's base and keep them following the carrot.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Forget all that. My new guru has taught me that walking fast is the first stage in running through the light barrier. I'm just going to huff and puff to the cafe and test it out. Just think, one day I'll get there before my grandfather was born. I wonder what the future will be like, disappointing maybe? I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written. I love how convinced he is about it. Probably got that from Marshy, he always sounded like he knew what he was talking about just because he seemed convinced himself. Lawson is IMO a perfect example of the reason the TMO does research. Contrary to popular opinion, the research is NOT done to convince non-meditators of the efficacy of the meditation technique in order to sell TM to more new people. Nay, IMO the research is for the *existing* TMers who have been doing it for years *without any real experiences to speak of*. Unwilling to face this fact and maybe try some other technique that might actually deliver on its promises, they cling to the research and believe that if *others* are experiencing all of this cool stuff, then they should keep on keepin' on themselves. The TM research is to hold on to the organization's base and keep them following the carrot. Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob
Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as
the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases.
And a few other excerpts from the letter:
About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment
in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with
hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive
than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more
limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a
population of ≈2 million people
We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP
from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative
approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few
direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have
modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions
should be monitored closely.
TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may
offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing
limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of
recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP
Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the
be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob
Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but
right down the middle.
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart
Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even
after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be
recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good
friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has
announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension.
He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend
alternative therapies for hypertension.
When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High
Blood Pressure.
||
|| When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the
Management of High Blood ... 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii:
S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print]
||
| View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov |Preview by Yahoo|
||
When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request
for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said:
We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among
meditation techniques for BP-lowering
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries
weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer
reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how
well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is
better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop
using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true.
They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from
using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I
wonder?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
You're aware that all TM teachers teach the same way, and more than likely some of the recerted teachers work for the DLF? I mean, Bobby Roth goes to teh Hamptons and lectures to billionaires and is introduced on national TV as Meditation Bob, meditation teacher to teh stars. You have more problem with TM teachers than other people it seems. Rupert Murdoch tweeted about learning TM last year, and numerous prominent people have learned TM recently without making a big deal about how cultish the TMO is. And of course, both the current and a former Prime Minister of Japan are both TMers, having learned it from the head of the Japanese TM organization 25 years ago. It's really quite fascinating how uncomfortable people on Fairfield Life are with the idea that most people simply don't CARE about things like 5 minute initiation ceremonies, and the like. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : In practicality, That an availability is 'limited' through re-certified teachers, MJ in writing his usual mean and aggressive negativity here raises a valid point within it in offering these excerpts from the J. Am. Heart Association memo. Limited availability is one thing, but further I also run in to a corollary fact that a general public also does not necessarily like going in to the Peace Palaces for learning TM. Possibly this is what the memo is also driving at. ..Way too much carry-on baggage with TM. From the J.AmHeart Association memo: “..TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM..” Evidently contact with the tru-believer re-certified side of the movement is too obviously odd, setting off cult-radar 'warnings' in many who may go near. This is a cultural thing. Though culturally modified the David Lynch Foundation side of TM is more extra-territorial or secular to the re-cert side or strict movement certified facilities that present a whole glossy panoply of TM Vedic things. The whole vedic thing evidently seems too much cult-like Scientology today as cult. That can evidently can be worked with as with the good work of the DLF. -Buck, a transcendent meditator in Fairfield, Iowa ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Ummm. You keep on posting and I keep on responding. I'm posting positive stuff about TM here and on reddit. And who told you I was banned from the entire website? I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
post the link to the mum speech please
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the
Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced
at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM.
Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind
that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM
*does* have a positive effect on BP.
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob
Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as
the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases.
And a few other excerpts from the letter:
About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing atreatment
in a randomized controlled trial and referringunselected patients with
hypertension for TMtraining in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive
than otherapproaches($1500), and access to certified training may bemore
limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sitescoveringa
population of ≈2 million people
We objectively and fairlypresented the published data about the lowering of BP
from TM. Itsefficacy was indeed shown tobe on par with some other alternative
approacheswhen cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few
directcomparisonsare available). We clearly stated that mostapproaches have
modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patientsrequiring 10mm Hg reductions
should be monitored closely.
TM was notinvented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques
mayoffer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless,we believe that existing
limitations need to beaddressed before revisiting a higher class of
recommendation concerningTMfor the sole purposes of managing high BP
Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the
be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob
Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but
right down the middle.
From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association
report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after
revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by
doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with
Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced
that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension.
He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend
alternative therapies for hypertension.
When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High
Blood Pressure.
| |
| | When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management
of High Blood ... 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0.
doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] | |
| View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov| Preview by Yahoo |
| |
When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request
for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said:
We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among
meditation techniques for BP-lowering
http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries
weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer
reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how
well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is
better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop
using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true.
They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from
using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I
wonder?
#yiv6424395665 #yiv6424395665 -- #yiv6424395665ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv6424395665
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{margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv6424395665 #yiv6424395665ygrp-mkp
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
In practicality, That an availability is 'limited' through re-certified teachers, MJ in writing his usual mean and aggressive negativity here raises a valid point within it in offering these excerpts from the J. Am. Heart Association memo. Limited availability is one thing, but further I also run in to a corollary fact that a general public also does not necessarily like going in to the Peace Palaces for learning TM. Possibly this is what the memo is also driving at. ..Way too much carry-on baggage with TM. From the J.AmHeart Association memo: “..TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM..” Evidently contact with the tru-believer re-certified side of the movement is too obviously odd, setting off cult-radar 'warnings' in many who may go near. This is a cultural thing. Though culturally modified the David Lynch Foundation side of TM is more extra-territorial or secular to the re-cert side or strict movement certified facilities that present a whole glossy panoply of TM Vedic things. The whole vedic thing evidently seems too much cult-like Scientology today as cult. That can evidently can be worked with as with the good work of the DLF. -Buck, a transcendent meditator in Fairfield, Iowa ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi University of Management http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, ... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH... View on new.livestrea... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : post the link to the mum speech please From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
I bet you will go to your grave as a TM apologist. You are highlighting one of the PROBLEMS with the TMO - they market to the millionaires to line their own pockets. Few people give a rat's ass how many celebrities and big money people do TM. Just do a bit of research to see what fuck heads the current and former Japanese prime ministers are. Like denying the existence of the Japanese comfort girls in WWII? And denying allegations of illegal funding to his political party. From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator You're aware that all TM teachers teach the same way, and more than likely some of the recerted teachers work for the DLF? I mean, Bobby Roth goes to teh Hamptons and lectures to billionaires and is introduced on national TV as Meditation Bob, meditation teacher to teh stars. You have more problem with TM teachers than other people it seems. Rupert Murdoch tweeted about learning TM last year, and numerous prominent people have learned TM recently without making a big deal about how cultish the TMO is. And of course, both the current and a former Prime Minister of Japan are both TMers, having learned it from the head of the Japanese TM organization 25 years ago. It's really quite fascinating how uncomfortable people on Fairfield Life are with the idea that most people simply don't CARE about things like 5 minute initiation ceremonies, and the like. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : In practicality, That an availability is 'limited'through re-certified teachers, MJ in writing his usual mean andaggressive negativity here raises a valid point within it in offeringthese excerpts from the J. Am. Heart Association memo.Limited availability is one thing, but further I also run in to acorollary fact that a general public also does not necessarily like going in tothe Peace Palaces for learning TM. Possibly this is what the memo isalso driving at. ..Way too much carry-on baggage with TM. From the J.AmHeart Association memo: “..TMwas not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditationtechniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, webelieve that existing limitations need to be addressed beforerevisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM..” Evidently contact with the tru-believer re-certified side of themovement is too obviously odd, setting off cult-radar 'warnings' inmany who may go near. This is a cultural thing. Though culturallymodified the David Lynch Foundation side of TM is moreextra-territorial or secular to the re-cert side or strict movementcertified facilities that present a whole glossy panoply of TM Vedicthings. The whole vedic thing evidently seems too much cult-like Scientologytoday as cult. That can evidently can be worked with as with the good work of the DLF.-Buck, a transcendent meditator in Fairfield, Iowa ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing atreatment in a randomized controlled trial and referringunselected patients with hypertension for TMtraining in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than otherapproaches($1500), and access to certified training may bemore limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sitescoveringa population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairlypresented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Itsefficacy was indeed shown tobe on par with some other alternative approacheswhen cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few directcomparisonsare available). We clearly stated that mostapproaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patientsrequiring 10mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was notinvented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques mayoffer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless,we believe that existing limitations need to beaddressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerningTMfor the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. They really DO set teh trends and fashions of society. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja In A Fight' http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja In... http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 Hedge fund billionaire Ray Dalio says he got into meditating 42 years ago because of 'The Beatles.' View on www.busines... http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 Preview by Yahoo The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide GQ addresses transcendental meditation. Should you cross your legs, close your eyes, and join in? View on www.gq.com http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide Preview by Yahoo Could this be the key to success on Wall Street? Hedge fund billionaire Ray Dalio thinks so http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html Could this be the key to success on Wall Street? H... http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html A string of recent deaths within the banking world have brought global attention to the stressful conditions that financiers work in and around. Large b... View on finance.yahoo... http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html Preview by Yahoo Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street firms http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street firm... http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ The David Lynch Foundation has been getting an increasing number of calls from Wall Street firms to come and offer its $1,000 intensive course on Transcend... View on money.cnn.com http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ Preview by Yahoo L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I bet you will go to your grave as a TM apologist. You are highlighting one of the PROBLEMS with the TMO - they market to the millionaires to line their own pockets. Few people give a rat's ass how many celebrities and big money people do TM. Just do a bit of research to see what fuck heads the current and former Japanese prime ministers are. Like denying the existence of the Japanese comfort girls in WWII? And denying allegations of illegal funding to his political party.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Ummm. You keep on posting and I keep on responding. I wasn't complaining. I'm just impressed by the energy you put into it. I'm posting positive stuff about TM here and on reddit. Keep it up, it's fun. And who told you I was banned from the entire website? Where did I say you were? Or do I have to be so completely specific about everything? I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
thank you - I'll check it out later today
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi
University of Management
||
|||| TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D.
Brook, ... Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and
Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH...|
|
| View on new.livestrea...|Preview by Yahoo|
||
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
post the link to the mum speech please
From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters
to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the
MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM.
Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind
that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM
*does* have a positive effect on BP.
L
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering But not as good as squeezing a rubber ball for 10 minutes I seem to remember. And that's the trouble really, using research like that to claim that TM is the best thing for something when it isn't. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Did you miss that the AHA accepted, without dispute, the claim that TM reduces DEATH by 48% over 5 years in Black Americans with cardiac disease? Ball-squeezing may have more effect on BP, but TM's effects on overall mortality go beyond simple lowering of BP. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi: 10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25644320 Preview by Yahoo When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering But not as good as squeezing a rubber ball for 10 minutes I seem to remember. And that's the trouble really, using research like that to claim that TM is the best thing for something when it isn't. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Let's not forget its power as advertising. Everyone knows science carries weight so being able to say you have 4000 studies published in 750 peer reviewed journals is a big help with the apparent credibility. No matter how well or not it stands up, and a lot of it is crap. Some of the newer stuff is better but they make unreasonable claims for it and even had to be told to stop using some results from the AMA because they simply weren't true. They totally blew it when they tried to stop non-accredited TM teachers from using the same research in their literature though. What happened about that I wonder?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
It's getting to be like a circus over here - informants can't even remember minutes later what they previously posted. LoL! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : And who told you I was banned from the entire website? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sa...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Where did I say you were? Or do I have to be so completely specific about everything? You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again? - salyavin 8:00 AM 3/30/15 I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Saying that TM is any different from most other Sanskrit mantra based meditations is like saying our car is different, it has wheels. :-D On 03/30/2015 07:37 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Ummm. You keep on posting and I keep on responding. I wasn't complaining. I'm just impressed by the energy you put into it. I'm posting positive stuff about TM here and on reddit. Keep it up, it's fun. And who told you I was banned from the entire website? Where did I say you were? Or do I have to be so completely specific about everything? I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Its no big deal - Rama levitated hundreds of times in front of hundreds of people. It has been reported that Rama could turn whole lecture halls golden. Obviously anyone can hop like a frog on foam, but if someone could slowly lift up off of a sofa in the desert and hover in mid-air, that would really be pretty impressive. The only thing embarrassing about that would be to post it on Yahoo FFL. LoL! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : I just can't participate in any of this any more...it's just too embarrassing for Lawson. Non sequitur. I mean, here is a guy who has never in his life had the curiosity to even *try* some other form of meditation other than TM, and he's trying to sell the pseudo-science that was created to keep him believing that TM was the best form of meditation. It's like someone waving their kindergarten coloring book at you and claiming it's the most advanced textbook on physics ever written. Non sequitur.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Everyone on this forum knows that human levitation has been achieved already and has been witnessed hundreds of times by reliable meditation teachers, so there's no doubt about this para-normal ability being possible - human suspension in mid-air with no visible means of physical support. In one case, a guy on a desert picnic saw a zen master lift up slowly from a sofa at Denny's in L.A. and then fly around the cafe about an inch off the floor, telling a joke the whole time. And then the zen master turned golden and flew up onto the side of a nearby mountain and waved at everyone down below. Over two hundred people saw this happen and were just dumb-founded, (except one guy - who thought it was just a normal thing and so he gave out a big whoop from the back of the diner). Everyone who saw it became a True Believer in the supernatural, thinking they had just seen an incarnation of Lord Vishnu, just like their religious scriptures and guru had told them about. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : But the dome but-bouncers haven't even gotten to the first (frog-hopping) stage, so it's more a matter of objectivity rather than rudeness. Non sequitur. But in fact, there's only one remaining respondent on FFL that has actually been inside a Maharishi Golden Dome in years and apparently you're not him. Go figure. .. As far as even close to being credible, (imo) a good second hand account would be the chapter in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi on the levitating Saint (a practitioner of Kriya Yoga). There are other accounts of Kriya Yogin levitators besides Yogananda's. Non sequitur. .. In any event, the Traditions of a. Kriya Yoga and b. Christianity; may be good candidates for exploring possible examples of true levitation (hovering); in contrast to the TM Tradition which is a dud. Non sequitur.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
I will gently remind you (so I am not accused of meanness and aggressiveness by
Buck) that Ray Dalio is one of the worst examples of what TM does for a person
as he is considered to be an A-1 by most people who have met him.
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do.
They really DO set teh trends and fashions of society.
And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all
sorts of headlines in business journals.
How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja In A Fight'
||
|||| How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja
In... Hedge fund billionaire Ray Dalio says he got into meditating 42 years
ago because of 'The Beatles.'||
| View on www.busines...|Preview by Yahoo|
||
The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation
||
|||| The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation GQ
addresses transcendental meditation. Should you cross your legs, close your
eyes, and join in?||
| View on www.gq.com |Preview by Yahoo|
||
Could this be the key to success on Wall Street? Hedge fund billionaire Ray
Dalio thinks so
||
|||| Could this be the key to success on Wall Street?
H... A string of recent deaths within the banking world have brought global
attention to the stressful conditions that financiers work in and around. Large
b...||
| View on finance.yahoo...|Preview by Yahoo|
||
Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street firms
||
|||| Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street
firm... The David Lynch Foundation has been getting an increasing number of
calls from Wall Street firms to come and offer its $1,000 intensive course on
Transcend...||
| View on money.cnn.com |Preview by Yahoo|
||
L
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
I bet you will go to your grave as a TM apologist.
You are highlighting one of the PROBLEMS with the TMO - they market to the
millionaires to line their own pockets.
Few people give a rat's ass how many celebrities and big money people do TM.
Just do a bit of research to see what fuck heads the current and former
Japanese prime ministers are. Like denying the existence of the Japanese
comfort girls in WWII? And denying allegations of illegal funding to his
political party.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Obviousy Ray Dalio, who appeared on the annual Time 100 list of the 100 most influential people in the world, can't compare to all your accomplishments. LoL! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Dalio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Dalio ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I will gently remind you (so I am not accused of meanness and aggressiveness by Buck) that Ray Dalio is one of the worst examples of what TM does for a person as he is considered to be an A-1 by most people who have met him. Non sequitur. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. They really DO set teh trends and fashions of society. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja In A Fight' http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 How Meditation Makes Ray Dalio Feel 'Like A Ninja In... http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 Hedge fund billionaire Ray Dalio says he got into meditating 42 years ago because of 'The Beatles.' View on www.busines... http://www.businessinsider.com/ray-dalio-2014-2 Preview by Yahoo The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide The GQ Guide to Transcendental Meditation http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide GQ addresses transcendental meditation. Should you cross your legs, close your eyes, and join in? View on www.gq.com http://www.gq.com/life/health/201309/gq-transcendental-meditation-guide Preview by Yahoo Could this be the key to success on Wall Street? Hedge fund billionaire Ray Dalio thinks so http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html?soc_src=mailsoc_trk=ma http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html?soc_src=mailsoc_trk=ma Could this be the key to success on Wall Street? H... http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html?soc_src=mailsoc_trk=ma A string of recent deaths within the banking world have brought global attention to the stressful conditions that financiers work in and around. Large b... View on finance.yahoo... http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/the-one-weird-practice-wall-street-bankers-swear-by-175231201.html?soc_src=mailsoc_trk=ma Preview by Yahoo Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street firms http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ Meditation grows popular at high-stress Wall Street firm... http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ The David Lynch Foundation has been getting an increasing number of calls from Wall Street firms to come and offer its $1,000 intensive course on Transcend... View on money.cnn.com http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/11/investing/meditation-wall-street/ Preview by Yahoo L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : I bet you will go to your grave as a TM apologist. You are highlighting one of the PROBLEMS with the TMO - they market to the millionaires to line their own pockets. Few people give a rat's ass how many celebrities and big money people do TM. Just do a bit of research to see what fuck heads the current and former Japanese prime ministers are. Like denying the existence of the Japanese comfort girls in WWII? And denying allegations of illegal funding to his political party.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Apparently you were inspired by someone, maybe Michael Jackson, to look into meditation. So you took a bus up to Iowa to join a religious cult and they forced you to work in the kitchen for free, learning how to bake cookies, take naps, fly inside a golden dome and pray to the Hindu gods on your hands and knees several times a day. The question is, for what purpose? So, you got kicked out of the cult and so you took a bus home in the middle of the night to your mother's house to live in her basement for a few years. That's nothing to be upset about - think of it as getting saved. Just kick some grass over that shit and move on. The other question is, whatever gave you the idea that you could learn to cook a pie crust? No wonder you're ordering out today. LoL!. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Ha ha ha! Love it! Brooks was inspired by the likes of the Dalai Lama and Jiddu Krisnamurti to look into meditation. Non sequitur. I bet Schneider's arse drew up when they showed those non-TM guru's on the overhead projector. How much would you be willing to wager? Wish the camera had panned the audience, but they wisely did not. Non sequitur. Have to stop now to order the pizza for Daughter's lunch vittles. Non sequitur. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi University of Management http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, ... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH... View on new.livestrea... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : post the link to the mum speech please From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Most of the world's billionaires started out with nothing, so what's your excuse? You were probably born with a silver spoon in your mouth in the land of opportunity. You had everything including the freedom of choice. You probably earn more in an hour than most people earn in a week. Go figure. http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/ http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/ ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? In the 1970s they could give it a try for a reasonable price. If it didn't do it for them then they weren't out much. That's when I learned TM. And as been noted before some of the celebs jump on anything that will give them press and abandon it as soon as they need something else for press. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American small town. Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? In the 1970s they could give it a try for a reasonable price. If it didn't do it for them then they weren't out much. That's when I learned TM. And as been noted before some of the celebs jump on anything that will give them press and abandon it as soon as they need something else for press. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American small town.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Buffett is as big an asshole as ever lived. He disowned one of his
granddaughters for appearing in The One Percent, a documentary by Johnson
Johnson heir Jamie Johnson about the gap between rich and poor in America.
Screw Buffett.
From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Away for a day and the thread moves on to other things. My take on the
wealthy is some people pay attention to some of them, like Warren Buffet
because he has had a rather astounding ability to make money and is nonetheless
perceived as a fairly normal person without a lot of pretension. As for the
'Mind of the Meditator' my experience is that over a long period of time, for
me, TM has resulted in 'open monitoring', the technique working in a kind of
back door approach. TM and mindfulness are now essentially identical because
there is no inner/outer dimension to meditation. That would be to say the
techniques, though different in their approach, result in convergent evolution
of experience as far as result. Once open monitoring is established, TM becomes
more effort-full compared to mindfulness because you actually have to do
something to initiate the process while with open monitoring, you need do
nothing. For beginning meditators this distinction is different for it appears
TM is a bit more efficient in helping people deal with discursive thought which
tends to be rampant with newbie meditators, but this difference diminishes over
time. TM mythology seems less adaptable to scientific discourse than do certain
forms of Buddhist explanations for the nature of enlightenment, and seems to
promote belief in imaginary ideas beyond what is necessary to get someone
interested in enlightenment, which is much much less than what people imagine
it to be.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote :
Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do.
You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a
toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they
might as well be alien.
It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress
does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go
Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people
for?
They really DO set the trends and fashions of society.
Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates?
And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all
sorts of headlines in business journals.
Cultmania. I love it.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Mean? P'raps. Aggressive, no. Had I offered to chase him down and force him to kiss my ass, then yes that would have been agressive. From: dhamiltony...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In practicality, That an availability is 'limited'through re-certified teachers, MJ in writing his usual mean andaggressive negativity here raises a valid point within it in offeringthese excerpts from the J. Am. Heart Association memo. Limited availability is one thing, but further I also run in to acorollary fact that a general public also does not necessarily like going in tothe Peace Palaces for learning TM. Possibly this is what the memo isalso driving at. ..Way too much carry-on baggage with TM. From the J.AmHeart Association memo: “..TMwas not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditationtechniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, webelieve that existing limitations need to be addressed beforerevisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM..” Evidently contact with the tru-believer re-certified side of themovement is too obviously odd, setting off cult-radar 'warnings' inmany who may go near. This is a cultural thing. Though culturallymodified the David Lynch Foundation side of TM is moreextra-territorial or secular to the re-cert side or strict movementcertified facilities that present a whole glossy panoply of TM Vedicthings. The whole vedic thing evidently seems too much cult-like Scientologytoday as cult. That can evidently can be worked with as with the good work of the DLF.-Buck, a transcendent meditator in Fairfield, Iowa ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing atreatment in a randomized controlled trial and referringunselected patients with hypertension for TMtraining in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than otherapproaches($1500), and access to certified training may bemore limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sitescoveringa population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairlypresented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Itsefficacy was indeed shown tobe on par with some other alternative approacheswhen cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few directcomparisonsare available). We clearly stated that mostapproaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patientsrequiring 10mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was notinvented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques mayoffer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless,we believe that existing limitations need to beaddressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerningTMfor the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM was (and still is two years later, even after revisions) the only form of meditation that the AHA says can be recommended by doctors for the treatment of hypertension is now pretty good friends with Robert Schneider, has appeared on the same stage with him, and has announced that he is doing his own study on TM and hypertension. He's also recently published an article discussing when to recommend alternative therapies for hypertension. When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood Pressure. | | | | When and How to Recommend Alternative Approaches in the Management of High Blood ... 1. Am J Med. 2015 Jan 30. pii: S0002-9343(15)00079-0. doi:10.1016/j.amjmed.2014.12.029. [Epub ahead of print] | | | View on www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov| Preview by Yahoo | | | When discussing TM research in a formal response to Robert Schneider's request for an upgrade to the AHA's evaluation of TM, he politely refused but said: We do agree that TM is unique in the robustness and quality of evidence among meditation techniques for BP-lowering http://hyper.ahajournals.org/content/62/6/e43.full L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
On 03/30/2015 09:14 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? In the 1970s they could give it a try for a reasonable price. If it didn't do it for them then they weren't out much. That's when I learned TM. And as been noted before some of the celebs jump on anything that will give them press and abandon it as soon as they need something else for press. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American small town.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Ha ha ha! Love it! Brooks was inspired by the likes of the Dalai Lama and Jiddu
Krisnamurti to look into meditation. I bet Schneider's arse drew up when they
showed those non-TM guru's on the overhead projector. Wish the camera had
panned the audience, but they wisely did not. Have to stop now to order the
pizza for Daughter's lunch vittles.
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi
University of Management
||
|||| TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D.
Brook, ... Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and
Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH...|
|
| View on new.livestrea...|Preview by Yahoo|
||
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
post the link to the mum speech please
From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters
to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the
MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM.
Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind
that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM
*does* have a positive effect on BP.
L
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/30/2015 09:14 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thinking about it a bit more, Lawson's statement might be more true of America than over here. We have a funny attitude to money, everyone wants to be rich but people can really dislike the wealthy just being rich. The weird politics of envy. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). A lot of the recent immigrants to London are conmen like Roman Abromovich and his Russian oilgarch friends who made a fortune in Russia during the capitalist free-for-all and park their money in London forcing up house prices way beyond the reach of locals. Even worse are playboy Arab billionaires racing their stupid fast cars round Knightsbridge. Everyone hates them and rightly so. The only thing the English like (except me) is class, we let the uppers shit on the rest of us whether they've got money or not. It's all bearing and accent. The only billionaire everyone seems to like is Richard Branson. He has a good and carefully managed image but what's he like really? Damn shrewd, hardworking or just lucky? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. Part of my job in my PR company was monitoring what the press said about Gates. All articles about him or his life were cut out and sent to me and I'd enter the details into a database and send a monthly report to MS's own press department. To say that I knew everything there is to know about him is an understatement. I felt like some hideous nerd stalker, but highly paid and probably shouldn't be telling you this! I knew how every room in his house was decorated and how much money he'd have top drop to make it worth his while bending over to pick it up (he made $150 a second apparently). Why they wanted to know all this stuff is a mystery to me, maybe they used it to monitor how obsessed people were with myths about his lifestyle? Weird job anyway... I also had to monitor the whole IE anti-trust thing and the battle with Netscape (remember that?) and all the while I was using a crappy Windows 95 PC. We didn't even have the internet in those days and had to actually work while looking at our screens! And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American small town. I like the JW's we used to get plagued by them at the TM centre because they considered us possessed by the devil for our pagan ways and would do everything in their power to convert us. One of the girls that came round was lovely and I used to chat her up for ages in the hope she was flirty fishing but she was married and you wouldn't believe the rules they have about that sort of thing. Funny thing was her husband wasn't a JW which is odd because they believe there are only 7000 places in heaven and every one is reserved by people from the JW's, but not even all of them. I asked her if it was depressing being married to someone she was actually guaranteed to never see in the afterlife of eternal peace and she didn't want to discuss it. I like to get their mag The Watchtower and read it on the train, they often have some TB articles about creationism V's evolution and it's fun to pit my wits against the clever nonsense they publish. PS I was an extra in a BBC production called Dr Foster they were filming at our local medical centre at the weekend. I made a good passerby I think. If I make
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Away for a day and the thread moves on to other things. My take on the wealthy is some people pay attention to some of them, like Warren Buffet because he has had a rather astounding ability to make money and is nonetheless perceived as a fairly normal person without a lot of pretension. As for the 'Mind of the Meditator' my experience is that over a long period of time, for me, TM has resulted in 'open monitoring', the technique working in a kind of back door approach. TM and mindfulness are now essentially identical because there is no inner/outer dimension to meditation. That would be to say the techniques, though different in their approach, result in convergent evolution of experience as far as result. Once open monitoring is established, TM becomes more effort-full compared to mindfulness because you actually have to do something to initiate the process while with open monitoring, you need do nothing. For beginning meditators this distinction is different for it appears TM is a bit more efficient in helping people deal with discursive thought which tends to be rampant with newbie meditators, but this difference diminishes over time. TM mythology seems less adaptable to scientific discourse than do certain forms of Buddhist explanations for the nature of enlightenment, and seems to promote belief in imaginary ideas beyond what is necessary to get someone interested in enlightenment, which is much much less than what people imagine it to be. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Currently watching the video as I await my daughter's arrival for a visit, so I
shan't watch it all right now. Just the in beginning where Schneider is
flattering the other doc for seeing the trends of time i.e. - seeing the
benefit of claiming TM does things it really doesn't.
I am guessing two things so far:
1 - This doc is drooling over the opportunity to get in on some of that grant
money Schneider has cashed in on and
2 - This doc will lose his current positions if he goes whole hog on
recommending TM like Schneider (who masquerades as an expert on Vedic Head
Shrinking)
From: lengli...@cox.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi
University of Management
||
|||| TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D.
Brook, ... Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and
Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH...|
|
| View on new.livestrea...|Preview by Yahoo|
||
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote :
post the link to the mum speech please
From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters
to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the
MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM.
Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind
that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM
*does* have a positive effect on BP.
L
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
On 03/30/2015 10:32 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : On 03/30/2015 09:14 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thinking about it a bit more, Lawson's statement might be more true of America than over here. We have a funny attitude to money, everyone wants to be rich but people can really dislike the wealthy just being rich. The weird politics of envy. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). A lot of the recent immigrants to London are conmen like Roman Abromovich and his Russian oilgarch friends who made a fortune in Russia during the capitalist free-for-all and park their money in London forcing up house prices way beyond the reach of locals. Even worse are playboy Arab billionaires racing their stupid fast cars round Knightsbridge. Everyone hates them and rightly so. The only thing the English like (except me) is class, we let the uppers shit on the rest of us whether they've got money or not. It's all bearing and accent. The only billionaire everyone seems to like is Richard Branson. He has a good and carefully managed image but what's he like really? Damn shrewd, hardworking or just lucky? Probably lucky. Successful people work smart not hard. Working hard is for peasants who would be better off too if they just worked smart. But there is becoming a lot of resentment in the US. Back in the 1990s I was able to dine out whenever I wanted to but now I walk past sidewalk cafes I can't afford lunch at or more correctly don't want to spend the inflated price. $10 for sandwich that 6 years ago might have been $5? In the 1990s you didn't get any resentment vibes either because even the poorer folks could still afford to dine out. I'm going to post a link to a Paul Craig Roberts interview which has some stuff about ISIS at the front so it fits jr's ISIS post. The latter part of the interview has Roberts talking about the economic inequity in the US and how we're headed for a depression. Mind you this guy was an economic advisor to Ronald Reagan during his administration. Jason needs to watch it too as Roberts is every bit as down on capitalistic excess as I am. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. Part of my job in my PR company was monitoring what the press said about Gates. All articles about him or his life were cut out and sent to me and I'd enter the details into a database and send a monthly report to MS's own press department. To say that I knew everything there is to know about him is an understatement. I felt like some hideous nerd stalker, but highly paid and probably shouldn't be telling you this! I knew how every room in his house was decorated and how much money he'd have top drop to make it worth his while bending over to pick it up (he made $150 a second apparently). Why they wanted to know all this stuff is a mystery to me, maybe they used it to monitor how obsessed people were with myths about his lifestyle? Weird job anyway... I also had to monitor the whole IE anti-trust thing and the battle with Netscape (remember that?) and all the while I was using a crappy Windows 95 PC. We didn't even have the internet in those days and had to actually work while looking at our screens! Yes I remember that and a point came up about Windows providing developer access and actually I was in a software industry group that asked Microsoft for that and it didn't get mentioned. MS lawyers apparently didn't know that piece of history. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
On 03/30/2015 11:00 AM, rich...@rwilliams.us [FairfieldLife] wrote: Most of the world's billionaires started out with nothing, so what's your excuse? You mean like the Koch brothers or the Waltons? They earned their wealth the old fashioned way, they inherited it. You were probably born with a silver spoon in your mouth in the land of opportunity. Yeah, my dad worked for the country road department. No silver spoons. You had everything including the freedom of choice. You probably earn more in an hour than most people earn in a week. Go figure. At best $85 an hour though I charge $200 an hour for consulting. But most clients are buying project work where you price that accordingly. I don't think too many people could survive in good ol' USA on $85 a week. So check your calculations. Last I read you're not even a millionaire. Guess you didn't take advantage of the opportunity. http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/ ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? In the 1970s they could give it a try for a reasonable price. If it didn't do it for them then they weren't out much. That's when I learned TM. And as been noted before some of the celebs jump on anything that will give them press and abandon it as soon as they need something else for press. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American small town. Actually a lot of dummies think of billionaires as some kind gods or special people as if making lots of money is the key to life. Thing is, a lot of our modern day billionaires are accidental. They just had the right idea at the right time in the right place. And anyone else with that right idea but the wrong time or wrong place might not have faired so well. IOW, it's about luck (there was a Harvard study about this). It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? In the 1970s they could give it a try for a reasonable price. If it didn't do it for them then they weren't out much. That's when I learned TM. And as been noted before some of the celebs jump on anything that will give them press and abandon it as soon as they need something else for press. They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? I think Melinda dresses him nowadays. And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it. Lawson makes being a TM'er like being a Jehovah's Witness. We have those downtown standing around looking for a mark. They are dressed (including their kids) like they are living in the 1950s. That sorta fits in with the town which clings to the 1950s Mayberry scene. Kick myself though as I didn't go downtown last week at all and there was a film crew there filming a PSA. It was a New York company and 30 people involved and even doing crane shots. Maybe you'll see it because it was a London agency that had them filming. The theme is American
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Michael, This one incident determines his all time personality? According to wikipedia, he disowned his son Peter's adopted daughter, that is she was not related to him except as an in-law. He reportedly wrote to her 'I have not emotionally or legally adopted you as a grandchild, nor have the rest of my family adopted you as a niece or a cousin.' He had for some time felt ambivalent about Nicole and her sister's claim to his fortune. The perceived sense of entitlement and Nicole's self-appointed role as family spokesperson prompted Buffett to tell Peter that he'd renounce her. It would appear the film was just the last straw in a more drawn out family squabble. In June 2006, he announced a plan to give away his fortune to charity, with 83% of it going to the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation. His children will not inherit a significant proportion of his wealth. This is consistent with statements he has made in the past indicating his opposition to the transfer of great fortunes from one generation to the next. Buffett once commented, 'I want to give my kids just enough so that they would feel that they could do anything, but not so much that they would feel like doing nothing.' On December 9, 2010, Buffett, Bill Gates, and Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, signed a promise they called the Gates-Buffett Giving Pledge, in which they promised to donate to charity at least half of their wealth over time, and invited others among the wealthy to follow suit. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Buffett is as big an asshole as ever lived. He disowned one of his granddaughters for appearing in The One Percent, a documentary by Johnson Johnson heir Jamie Johnson about the gap between rich and poor in America. Screw Buffett. From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Away for a day and the thread moves on to other things. My take on the wealthy is some people pay attention to some of them, like Warren Buffet because he has had a rather astounding ability to make money and is nonetheless perceived as a fairly normal person without a lot of pretension. As for the 'Mind of the Meditator' my experience is that over a long period of time, for me, TM has resulted in 'open monitoring', the technique working in a kind of back door approach. TM and mindfulness are now essentially identical because there is no inner/outer dimension to meditation. That would be to say the techniques, though different in their approach, result in convergent evolution of experience as far as result. Once open monitoring is established, TM becomes more effort-full compared to mindfulness because you actually have to do something to initiate the process while with open monitoring, you need do nothing. For beginning meditators this distinction is different for it appears TM is a bit more efficient in helping people deal with discursive thought which tends to be rampant with newbie meditators, but this difference diminishes over time. TM mythology seems less adaptable to scientific discourse than do certain forms of Buddhist explanations for the nature of enlightenment, and seems to promote belief in imaginary ideas beyond what is necessary to get someone interested in enlightenment, which is much much less than what people imagine it to be. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Johnson Johnson has a division in India which owns (or at least did own) Dabur a manufacturer of ayurvedic remedies. Weird, eh? On 03/30/2015 09:52 AM, Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Buffett is as big an asshole as ever lived. He disowned one of his granddaughters for appearing in /The One Percent,/ a documentary by Johnson Johnson heir Jamie Johnson about the gap between rich and poor in America. Screw Buffett. *From:* anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *To:* FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, March 30, 2015 12:36 PM *Subject:* Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Away for a day and the thread moves on to other things. My take on the wealthy is some people pay attention to some of them, like Warren Buffet because he has had a rather astounding ability to make money and is nonetheless perceived as a fairly normal person without a lot of pretension. As for the 'Mind of the Meditator' my experience is that over a long period of time, for me, TM has resulted in 'open monitoring', the technique working in a kind of back door approach. TM and mindfulness are now essentially identical because there is no inner/outer dimension to meditation. That would be to say the techniques, though different in their approach, result in convergent evolution of experience as far as result. Once open monitoring is established, TM becomes more effort-full compared to mindfulness because you actually have to do something to initiate the process while with open monitoring, you need do nothing. For beginning meditators this distinction is different for it appears TM is a bit more efficient in helping people deal with discursive thought which tends to be rampant with newbie meditators, but this difference diminishes over time. TM mythology seems less adaptable to scientific discourse than do certain forms of Buddhist explanations for the nature of enlightenment, and seems to promote belief in imaginary ideas beyond what is necessary to get someone interested in enlightenment, which is much much less than what people imagine it to be. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Think what you like and I will do the same. Buffett's big giveaway is as much horseshit as Gates' is. It is a big fat tax break for them, plus they mainly give to foundations that they and their families control, and use the money they give the foundations to leverage whatever they want in terms of political and other types of control through the threat of loss of such revenue to the beneficiaries of the largess of said foundations. From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Michael, This one incident determines his all time personality? According to wikipedia, he disowned his son Peter's adopted daughter, that is she was not related to him except as an in-law. He reportedly wrote to her 'I have not emotionally or legally adopted you as a grandchild, nor have the rest of my family adopted you as a niece or a cousin.' He had for some time felt ambivalent about Nicole and her sister's claim to his fortune. The perceived sense of entitlement and Nicole's self-appointed role as family spokesperson prompted Buffett to tell Peter that he'd renounce her. It would appear the film was just the last straw in a more drawn out family squabble. In June 2006, he announced a plan to give away his fortune to charity, with 83% of it going to the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation. His children will not inherit a significant proportion of his wealth. This is consistent with statements he has made in the past indicating his opposition to the transfer of great fortunes from one generation to the next. Buffett once commented, 'I want to give my kids just enough so that they would feel that they could do anything, but not so much that they would feel like doing nothing.' On December 9, 2010, Buffett, Bill Gates, and Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg, signed a promise they called the Gates-Buffett Giving Pledge, in which they promised to donate to charity at least half of their wealth over time, and invited others among the wealthy to follow suit. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Buffett is as big an asshole as ever lived. He disowned one of his granddaughters for appearing in The One Percent, a documentary by Johnson Johnson heir Jamie Johnson about the gap between rich and poor in America. Screw Buffett. From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Away for a day and the thread moves on to other things. My take on the wealthy is some people pay attention to some of them, like Warren Buffet because he has had a rather astounding ability to make money and is nonetheless perceived as a fairly normal person without a lot of pretension. As for the 'Mind of the Meditator' my experience is that over a long period of time, for me, TM has resulted in 'open monitoring', the technique working in a kind of back door approach. TM and mindfulness are now essentially identical because there is no inner/outer dimension to meditation. That would be to say the techniques, though different in their approach, result in convergent evolution of experience as far as result. Once open monitoring is established, TM becomes more effort-full compared to mindfulness because you actually have to do something to initiate the process while with open monitoring, you need do nothing. For beginning meditators this distinction is different for it appears TM is a bit more efficient in helping people deal with discursive thought which tends to be rampant with newbie meditators, but this difference diminishes over time. TM mythology seems less adaptable to scientific discourse than do certain forms of Buddhist explanations for the nature of enlightenment, and seems to promote belief in imaginary ideas beyond what is necessary to get someone interested in enlightenment, which is much much less than what people imagine it to be. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
You DO realize that this means that Brook has no dog in the fight of TM vs whatever? He's so out of touch with the politics that he has pictures of the Dali Lama put on the screen at MUM. Pretty neutral guy, obviously. And so if he comes to a specific conclusion based on looking at the research (e.g. TM is better for the treatment of high blood pressure) it as a disinterested party... L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Ha ha ha! Love it! Brooks was inspired by the likes of the Dalai Lama and Jiddu Krisnamurti to look into meditation. I bet Schneider's arse drew up when they showed those non-TM guru's on the overhead projector. Wish the camera had panned the audience, but they wisely did not. Have to stop now to order the pizza for Daughter's lunch vittles. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD by Maharishi University of Management http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, ... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Watch Maharishi University of Management's TM, Air Pollution, and Your Heart with Robert D. Brook, MD on Livestream.com. MUM DISTINGUISH... View on new.livestrea... http://new.livestream.com/mum/brook Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : post the link to the mum speech please From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
It's like a circus here today. LoL! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Like denying the existence of the Japanese comfort girls in WW,II? The question is, Did you enjoy? LoL! And denying allegations of illegal funding to his political party. Non sequitur. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 9:34 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator You're aware that all TM teachers teach the same way, and more than likely some of the recerted teachers work for the DLF? I mean, Bobby Roth goes to teh Hamptons and lectures to billionaires and is introduced on national TV as Meditation Bob, meditation teacher to teh stars. You have more problem with TM teachers than other people it seems. Rupert Murdoch tweeted about learning TM last year, and numerous prominent people have learned TM recently without making a big deal about how cultish the TMO is. And of course, both the current and a former Prime Minister of Japan are both TMers, having learned it from the head of the Japanese TM organization 25 years ago. It's really quite fascinating how uncomfortable people on Fairfield Life are with the idea that most people simply don't CARE about things like 5 minute initiation ceremonies, and the like. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : In practicality, That an availability is 'limited' through re-certified teachers, MJ in writing his usual mean and aggressive negativity here raises a valid point within it in offering these excerpts from the J. Am. Heart Association memo. Limited availability is one thing, but further I also run in to a corollary fact that a general public also does not necessarily like going in to the Peace Palaces for learning TM. Possibly this is what the memo is also driving at. ..Way too much carry-on baggage with TM. From the J.AmHeart Association memo: “..TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM..” Evidently contact with the tru-believer re-certified side of the movement is too obviously odd, setting off cult-radar 'warnings' in many who may go near. This is a cultural thing. Though culturally modified the David Lynch Foundation side of TM is more extra-territorial or secular to the re-cert side or strict movement certified facilities that present a whole glossy panoply of TM Vedic things. The whole vedic thing evidently seems too much cult-like Scientology today as cult. That can evidently can be worked with as with the good work of the DLF. -Buck, a transcendent meditator in Fairfield, Iowa ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Which shows that the TM leaders and their medical shills like that jack-ass Bob Schneider are greedy for nothing less than a world wide endorsement of TM as the sovereign remedy to cure all society's ills and all man's diseases. And a few other excerpts from the letter: About practicality, there is a marked difference between providing a treatment in a randomized controlled trial and referring unselected patients with hypertension for TM training in clinical practice. TM is also more expensive than other approaches ($1500), and access to certified training may be more limited. For example, the Cleveland area has only 2 listed sites covering a population of ≈2 million people We objectively and fairly presented the published data about the lowering of BP from TM. Its efficacy was indeed shown to be on par with some other alternative approaches when cross-comparing summary meta-analyses results (although few direct comparisons are available). We clearly stated that most approaches have modest efficacy (not just TM), and that patients requiring 10 mm Hg reductions should be monitored closely. TM was not invented to lower BP. We acknowledge that meditation techniques may offer numerous benefits to people. Nevertheless, we believe that existing limitations need to be addressed before revisiting a higher class of recommendation concerning TM for the sole purposes of managing high BP Had I been the doctor replying to Greedy Bob's request to mark TM as being the be all and end all of life, I would have concluded the letter by saying Bob Schneider can kiss my ass, not on the left side and not on the right side, but right down the middle. From: LEnglish5@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator In case you hadn't noticed, the lead author of the American Heart Association report that said that TM
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
A car is all about the wheels - that's where the rubber meets the road. If you have 20 inch wheels you can improve your MPG - it's a matter of math and the circumference of a circle in motion. Not all cars are equal in a race. What you need to understand is that the TM technique is NOT the cause of enlightenment - it just provides the ideal opportunity for transcending. For most normal people, practicing a simple, easy-to-learn TM technique is the fastest and best way to learn how to enjoy transcending. In TM instruction you only get one single mantra - that's all you need. TM does not require any effort or belief - it's just what inteligent people do. Using any technique, you are only going to get as much enlightenment that you are going to get. It's not complicated. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : Saying that TM is any different from most other Sanskrit mantra based meditations is like saying our car is different, it has wheels. :-D On 03/30/2015 07:37 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote : Ummm. You keep on posting and I keep on responding. I wasn't complaining. I'm just impressed by the energy you put into it. I'm posting positive stuff about TM here and on reddit. Keep it up, it's fun. And who told you I was banned from the entire website? Where did I say you were? Or do I have to be so completely specific about everything? I'm co-moderator of /r/transcendental afterall. By the way, what makes you certain that 'tis a lost crusade? The fact that the DLF is negotiating with the United Nations concerning training UN workers to be TM teachers? L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... mailto:LEnglish5@... wrote : As I pointed out, the lead author (who also wrote the response in the Letters to the Editor), is now pretty good friends with Schneider and announced at the MUM speech he gave that he was doing his own research on TM. Coincidentally enough, the research the he will be doing is exactly of the kind that he says needs to be done to boost TM's rating, should it find that TM *does* have a positive effect on BP. You're devoting a lot of time to this lost crusade Lawson, have you been banned from Reddit again?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Actually, people DO pay attention to what billlionaires say and do. You have completely departed from reality with this statement. Nobody gives a toss what millionaires do, their lives are so far removed from ours that they might as well be alien. It's like the celebrity obsession the TMO has, so what if some model or actress does the same sort of meditation, are they really so dumb they think people go Wow, such and such does it, I'm gonna give it a try! What do they take people for? They really DO set the trends and fashions of society. Bullshit. Would you hang out with someone who dressed like Bill Gates? And of course, when Ray Dalio appears on the stage with Bob Roth, it makes all sorts of headlines in business journals. Cultmania. I love it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Does the term simile mean anything to you? Moving along the ground as a frog jumps probably doesn't mean your legs turn green, but that you move in a series of short hops, or so I would interpret it. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : Absolutely! The Dome but-bouncers can even come close to the hopping of real frogs. Refer to the websites on the frog-jumping contests at the Calaveras County fair. One site shows Larry the Cable Guy holding one of the champion frogs. Larry would'nt be caught dead in the Domes.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 5:54 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Buck, you seem more coherent now that you are out of the dome. I was going to say the same thing, and without a hint of snark. It's been a pleasure to read Makes Sense Buck again. Really. Could it be when one door closes, another one opens? Don't live your life for others even if you are supportive of others. I saw Krishnamurti before I learned TM. I did not understand what he was talking about then, but now it makes sense, but much more than TM was involved in my coming to my present understanding. The more variety you have the more options you have for understanding something as long as you are able to coordinate the relationships between the various concepts, and have the ability to shed concepts that prove useless. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some ofyour best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as aknock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and ownminds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thingas they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try todo with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved andPhysiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulnessby way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mindcomplex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditationevidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, thatglobal-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is goingon underneath.JaiGuruYou,-Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out tocheck the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rainlikely, mainly before 10am. Chanceof precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than atenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: QuotationJ. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymoreconflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax andbe still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become wholeand unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of ourthoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness anda goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in theworld. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of thisdeep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pureconsciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself.(Note that he is talking about thiswhile being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense of self. TM, on the other hand, is taught in terms of allowing the mind to wander, and physiological research shows that the same activity and interactions that mindfulness reduces, TM enhances. Interestingly enough, this review article, Towards a neuroscience of mind-wandering (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Buck, you seem more coherent now that you are out of the dome. Could it be when one door closes, another one opens? Don't live your life for others even if you are supportive of others. I saw Krishnamurti before I learned TM. I did not understand what he was talking about then, but now it makes sense, but much more than TM was involved in my coming to my present understanding. The more variety you have the more options you have for understanding something as long as you are able to coordinate the relationships between the various concepts, and have the ability to shed concepts that prove useless. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense of self. TM, on the other hand, is taught in terms of allowing the mind to wander, and physiological research shows that the same activity and interactions that mindfulness reduces, TM enhances. Interestingly enough, this review article,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2015 5:44 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? I honestly think that many folks on this forum are far less interested in finding truth than they are in asserting that the TM organization holds the copyright to the word. This whole thread, after all, was started because someone essentially claimed that the TMO had the right to define what pure consciousness is. Right? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some ofyour best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as aknock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and ownminds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thingas they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try todo with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved andPhysiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulnessby way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mindcomplex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditationevidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, thatglobal-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is goingon underneath.JaiGuruYou,-Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out tocheck the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rainlikely, mainly before 10am. Chanceof precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than atenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: QuotationJ. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymoreconflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax andbe still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become wholeand unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of ourthoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness anda goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in theworld. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of thisdeep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pureconsciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself.(Note that he is talking about thiswhile being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
There is only one single state, but it has different aspects, perception depending on one's level of consciousness. The ultimate reality is pure consciousness. My position, and the position of most idealistic transcendentalists, is that we infer, from the fact of being conscious, that consciousness itself is the ultimate reality - because without consciousness, we would not exist. And we accept that inference is a valid means of knowledge. Thoughts and ideas, not being material objects, cannot be perceived; they can only be inferred. If consciousness means self-consciousness, then it cannot be identified by logic with the human body. This is the Hindu Advaita Vedanta and to some extent, the view of the Vijnana school of Tibetan Buddhism. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? There could be no human experience-able ground state without us being the ground state. And this is in fact what Marshy claimed, which is a long way from Lawson's claim that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. If the state of pure consciousness was some sort of ground state then you'd expect it to be the same when accessed via different types of meditation etc. This it clearly is not, and I'm talking from experience. So obviously it's a rare neurological state and not anything to do with physics. What I think happened is this: we have a fascinating experience via meditation that gives us the impression that we are unbounded and infinite in some fundamental way. So a huge mythos has evolved around these states of mind but it's the meditational trip-outs that came first. We recognise the description of the experience and we have no way of gainsaying the teacher due to his/her presumed affinity with this stuff and get drawn in further until we can't separate the two things. If we were to discover meditation tomorrow and start the nomenclature all over again would we still go for a unified field/pure consciousness/vedic infinity kind of approach? I think not. The emphasis would be mostly on what use it might possibly have, and that would be based on evidence and not the wild claims of the reesh. It would be a good project as we could disabuse people of the idea that it's something to do with physics from the get-go and thus remove a lot of tricksy cash cows from organisations like the TMO and also stop a lot of people spending all their lives sitting in domes waiting to fly and create a non-existent peace-field when they could be doing something they might be more proud of in later life. Would it be as much fun though? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense of self. TM, on the other hand, is taught in terms of allowing the mind to wander, and physiological research shows that the same activity and interactions that mindfulness reduces, TM enhances. Interestingly enough, this review article, Towards a neuroscience of mind-wandering (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/) notes specifically that mind-wandering is essential for sense of self according to modern neuroscience theories, so to claim that mindfulness leads to the same kind of enlightenment as TM, where sense-of-self is perceived as the basis of all reality, is kinda odd: mindfulness disrupts the very foundation of such a perspective. Finally, citing that Scientific America citing a wikipedia page is hilarious (the text 'unknown/unclear/uncertain or not well-established' appears nowhere in the original article, even
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
I wouldn't say no thought = no thinker nor would I say the opposite... How could you know? However, even if there's no way to examine the non-existent internal landscape of someone while in the PC state, we can look at the physiological correlates, and they are quire interesting. Analysis of EEG implies that the resting state networks, especially the default mode network, is quite active, while other parts of the brain are not as active. Further, the mind-wanderign mode and PC seem to be very related, and the activity of the parts of the brain most associated with sense-of-self seem to be very active during PC. And, outside of meditation, as the EEG starts to become more like that found during PC, we find that sense-of-self becomes stronger, but not associated with any thing. All of this seems to support the traditional view that PC, AKA _samadhi_, is the state where observer, observed and process of observation have merged, leaving only the quality of observer, by Itself. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : Thanks for posting this sparaig. This is one of my hobby horses. Pure consciousness is precisely awareness without any thought, image or sensation. And no thought = no thinker. Robert K C Forman (a TM practitioner) has written on this topic, including The Problem of Pure Consciousness: Mysticism and Philosophy and (a better choice) Mysticism, Mind, Consciousness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Rolls eyes. You can force silence by distracting the mind and diverting resources away from the verbal centers or you can allow the mind to become more calm until silence is everywhere. Pure consciousness during TM is no mantra, no thought, no body awareness, no intuition, no emotion, no memory, no sensory awareness of any kind, not just no verbal thoughts. It occurs spontaneously, not at beck and call, and is accompanies by higher levels of alpha coherence in the frontal lobes, along with increased skin resistance, abrupt decrease i heart rate as well as an apparent cessation of breathing or at least abrupt drop in breath rate. It's hard to miss when you hook someone up to the right equipment, but what they found when the examined the woman who most consistently showed these signs, while using the most sophisticated eqiupment, was that she didn't notice the existence of the state, only the transition *out of* the state. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : No mantra-No thought Sounds the same. It is a correct experience of the practice of TM (second night checking) and evidently Mindfulness too Pure Awareness. # ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : [Scientific American article by Matthieu Ricard, Antoine Lutz, and Richard J. Davidson, Nov. 2014, p. 43] In our Wisconsin lab, we have studied experienced practioners while they performed an advanced form of mindfulness meditation called open presence. In open presence, sometimes called pure awareness, the mind is calm and relaxed, not focused on anything in particular yet vividly clear, free from excitation or dullness. The meditator observes and is open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation ...[the experimenters somehow induced some pain to experienced meditators, then compared the results to novices.] .We found that the intensity o0f the pain was not reduced in meditators, but it bothered them less than it did members of a control group. . Compared with novices, expert meditators' brain activity diminished in anxiety related regions - the insular cortex and the amygdala - in the period preceding the painful stimulus. . Other tests in our lab have shown that meditation training increases one's ability to better control and buffer basic physiological responses - inflammation or levels of a stress hormone - to a socially stressful task such as giving a public speech or doing mental arithmetic in front of a harsh jury. . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Here is Maharishi's take on teh scientific study of meditation. Note that he is talking about human consciousness here, not the ground state of natural law, aka brahman. That is referred to as that wholeness of life which is present everywhere. Every experience has its level of physiology, and so unbounded awareness has its own level of physiology which can be measured. Every aspect of life is integrated and connected with every other phase. When we talk of scientific measurements, it does not take away from the spiritual experience. We are not responsible for those times when spiritual experience was thought of as metaphysical. Everything is physical. Consciousness is the product of the functioning of the brain. Talking of scientific measurements is no damage to that wholeness of life which is present everywhere and which begins to be lived when the physiology is taking on a particular form. This is our understanding about spirituality: it is not on the level of faith --it is on the level of blood and bone and flesh and activity. It is measurable. -Maharishi Mahesh Yogi And so, you can assert that pure awareness, ala open monitoring is the same as pure awareness ala TM, is the same thing, but that isn't supportable by the words that clarify what pure awareness means in the context of the original passage. The question of whether or not mindfulness leads to the same place as TM isn't even being addressed here, as my point was simply that the phrase pure awareness is being used in a different way than when TMers use it as a synonym for samadhi. as I said originally: What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? There could be no human experience-able ground state without us being the ground state. And this is in fact what Marshy claimed, which is a long way from Lawson's claim that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. If the state of pure consciousness was some sort of ground state then you'd expect it to be the same when accessed via different types of meditation etc. This it clearly is not, and I'm talking from experience. So obviously it's a rare neurological state and not anything to do with physics. What I think happened is this: we have a fascinating experience via meditation that gives us the impression that we are unbounded and infinite in some fundamental way. So a huge mythos has evolved around these states of mind but it's the meditational trip-outs that came first. We recognise the description of the experience and we have no way of gainsaying the teacher due to his/her presumed affinity with this stuff and get drawn in further until we can't separate the two things. If we were to discover meditation tomorrow and start the nomenclature all over again would we still go for a unified field/pure consciousness/vedic infinity kind of approach? I think not. The emphasis would be mostly on what use it might possibly have, and that would be based on evidence and not the wild claims of the reesh. It would be a good project as we could disabuse people of the idea that it's something to do with physics from the get-go and thus remove a lot of tricksy cash cows from organisations like the TMO and also stop a lot of people spending all their lives sitting in domes waiting to fly and create a non-existent peace-field when they could be doing something they might be more proud of in later life. Would it be as much fun though?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
I don't know where the debate started, but my point was that two different groups are using the same two words in different ways: TMers equote pure awarenessBack https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages with pure consciousness with transcendental consciousness with samadhi, which is a state devoid of any perception The passage on mindfulness equoted pure awareness to an advanced form of mindfulness called open monitoring where one is equally receptive to all stimuli. Devoid of stimuli is not eqivalent to equally receptive to all stimuli except in the trivial sense that if there are zero stimuli, that one is equally receptive to all of them. However, the phrase clarifying what pure awareness means in the context of open monitoring explicitly refers to perception of pain, so pure awareness ala open monitoring is NOT a state devoid of any perception. That was my only point: two different groups are using the same two-word phrase to describe different situations. Which group is using the words correctly is a point that I never raised: I merely pointed out that two different groups are saying pure awareness and the meaning is quite different: devoid of any perception as compared to open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation. And the implication for me is that once you mistake the label for what is being talked about, confusion follows. Nashville, Florida is NOT Nashville, Tennessee, and if you seek the Grand Ole Opry in the former, you're going to be looking for a ticket seller to a concert for a very long time indeed. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote I honestly think that many folks on this forum are far less interested in finding truth than they are in asserting that the TM organization holds the copyright to the word. This whole thread, after all, was started because someone essentially claimed that the TMO had the right to define what pure consciousness is. Right? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L [...] ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : You can only measure what y ou have the equipment to measure. However, it's a truism that just because two things can be described teh same way at one level, doesn't mean that they are identifical. My favorite example is what happened to some British friends many decades ago... They got a sweetheart travel package to visit Nashville. Nashville, Florida, that is. Just because you can describe a city as Nashville doesn't mean it is the Nashville you were hoping to visit. Unfortunately, they actually got on the plane and landed before they discovered their mistake. The moral is: a label, pure awareness, that is described as being without thought, might not be referring to the same thing between two different meditation traditions. A two-word phrase may not provide you enough info to make a rationale choice any more than just knowing the name of the city without knowing the state it is in is enough to make rationale travel plans. L
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
This might be Maharishi's distinction between little-t transcending, where the mind is diverted from thinking the mantra and back on thoughts even though pure consciousness never occured, vs Big-T Transcending, aka pure consciousness aka pure awareness, where all perception of any kind has ceased, leaving the brain in an alert mode without any object of attention to be alert about. There's a switch between the inward and outward strokes of meditation, with no object-less situation between. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, richard@... wrote : According to Comans, samadhi has two stages: samprajana samadhi - enstasis where there is still object-consciousness; and, nirvikalpasamadhi - where there is no longer any object-consciousness. The purpose of yogic meditation is to *isolate* bodily fluctuations and pass into samprajana samadhi, hence to total isolation of mental fluctuations and then to pass into nirvakalpasamadhi where the Self is not hidden by external conditions of the body or the mind (citta). 'The question of the importance of Samadhi in modern and classical Advaita Vedanta' by Michael Comans http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/comans.htm http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/comans.htm ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : I don't know where the debate started, but my point was that two different groups are using the same two words in different ways: TMers equote pure awarenessBack https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages with pure consciousness with transcendental consciousness with samadhi, which is a state devoid of any perception The passage on mindfulness equoted pure awareness to an advanced form of mindfulness called open monitoring where one is equally receptive to all stimuli. Devoid of stimuli is not eqivalent to equally receptive to all stimuli except in the trivial sense that if there are zero stimuli, that one is equally receptive to all of them. However, the phrase clarifying what pure awareness means in the context of open monitoring explicitly refers to perception of pain, so pure awareness ala open monitoring is NOT a state devoid of any perception. That was my only point: two different groups are using the same two-word phrase to describe different situations. Which group is using the words correctly is a point that I never raised: I merely pointed out that two different groups are saying pure awareness and the meaning is quite different: devoid of any perception as compared to open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation. And the implication for me is that once you mistake the label for what is being talked about, confusion follows. Nashville, Florida is NOT Nashville, Tennessee, and if you seek the Grand Ole Opry in the former, you're going to be looking for a ticket seller to a concert for a very long time indeed. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote I honestly think that many folks on this forum are far less interested in finding truth than they are in asserting that the TM organization holds the copyright to the word. This whole thread, after all, was started because someone essentially claimed that the TMO had the right to define what pure consciousness is. Right? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L [...] ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : You can only measure what y ou have the equipment to measure. However, it's a truism that just because two things can be described teh same way at one level, doesn't mean that they are identifical. My favorite example is what happened to some British friends many decades ago... They got a sweetheart travel package to visit Nashville. Nashville, Florida, that is. Just because you can describe a city as Nashville doesn't mean it is the Nashville you were hoping to visit. Unfortunately, they actually got on the plane and landed before they discovered their mistake. The moral is: a label, pure awareness, that is described as being without thought, might not be referring to the same thing between two different meditation traditions. A two-word phrase may not provide you enough info to make a rationale choice any more than just knowing the name of the city without knowing the state it is in is enough
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
According to Comans, samadhi has two stages: samprajana samadhi - enstasis where there is still object-consciousness; and, nirvikalpasamadhi - where there is no longer any object-consciousness. The purpose of yogic meditation is to *isolate* bodily fluctuations and pass into samprajana samadhi, hence to total isolation of mental fluctuations and then to pass into nirvakalpasamadhi where the Self is not hidden by external conditions of the body or the mind (citta). 'The question of the importance of Samadhi in modern and classical Advaita Vedanta' by Michael Comans http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/comans.htm http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/comans.htm ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : I don't know where the debate started, but my point was that two different groups are using the same two words in different ways: TMers equote pure awarenessBack https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/FairfieldLife/conversations/messages with pure consciousness with transcendental consciousness with samadhi, which is a state devoid of any perception The passage on mindfulness equoted pure awareness to an advanced form of mindfulness called open monitoring where one is equally receptive to all stimuli. Devoid of stimuli is not eqivalent to equally receptive to all stimuli except in the trivial sense that if there are zero stimuli, that one is equally receptive to all of them. However, the phrase clarifying what pure awareness means in the context of open monitoring explicitly refers to perception of pain, so pure awareness ala open monitoring is NOT a state devoid of any perception. That was my only point: two different groups are using the same two-word phrase to describe different situations. Which group is using the words correctly is a point that I never raised: I merely pointed out that two different groups are saying pure awareness and the meaning is quite different: devoid of any perception as compared to open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation. And the implication for me is that once you mistake the label for what is being talked about, confusion follows. Nashville, Florida is NOT Nashville, Tennessee, and if you seek the Grand Ole Opry in the former, you're going to be looking for a ticket seller to a concert for a very long time indeed. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote I honestly think that many folks on this forum are far less interested in finding truth than they are in asserting that the TM organization holds the copyright to the word. This whole thread, after all, was started because someone essentially claimed that the TMO had the right to define what pure consciousness is. Right? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L [...] ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : You can only measure what y ou have the equipment to measure. However, it's a truism that just because two things can be described teh same way at one level, doesn't mean that they are identifical. My favorite example is what happened to some British friends many decades ago... They got a sweetheart travel package to visit Nashville. Nashville, Florida, that is. Just because you can describe a city as Nashville doesn't mean it is the Nashville you were hoping to visit. Unfortunately, they actually got on the plane and landed before they discovered their mistake. The moral is: a label, pure awareness, that is described as being without thought, might not be referring to the same thing between two different meditation traditions. A two-word phrase may not provide you enough info to make a rationale choice any more than just knowing the name of the city without knowing the state it is in is enough to make rationale travel plans. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
According to what I've read, there are two truths - there is relative truth and there is absolute truth. The Advaita Vedanta idea of two levels of truth (Sanskrit: satya) is similar to the Buddhist doctrine of the two truths (Tibetan: bden-pa gnyis). In Indian Buddhism, there is a relative or commonsensical truth, and an absolute or ultimate truth. In Tibetan Buddhism, the ultimate truth is synonymous with emptiness. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Here is a question: If we assume there is a human experience-able ground state to the universe (i.e., enlightenment), and different meditation systems claim this can be experienced, is the result the experience of the same ground state with different flavours of the experience due to the differences in physiological state, or is the result the experience of two different ground states due to the differences of physiological state? If the former, what is the nature of truth if it is not an identical experience, and if the latter, if there are two different truths, what does that say about truth? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : We were debating? Hmmm. My argument: TM leads to a different style of physiological functioning than mindfulness does, and so, to claim that they are spiritually identical doesn't make sense, if you by Maharishi's theory that spirituality is based on the physical functioning of the nervous system. Anartaxius' argument: No it doesn't, and research isn't good enough to show differences, and even if they DO show differences, it doesn't matter. So there. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Anartaxius, really great quotes for this debate. This is some of your best writing here in style: clear, precise and shortly said as a knock-out punch delivered. Thanks, yes their assumptions and own minds clearly are a problem these spock-like guys have for this thing as they try in method to do the big put-down of all other meditations, other than TM. ..by verbal mental reductionism. An irony in this whole thing though that they try to do with co-opting meditation is that their TM-sidhis, the TM-Ved and Physiology practice, and several of the advanced TM-techniques are mindfulness by way nature in practice anyway. In the heart of the body-mind complex of it all, what is going on in cultivated spiritual meditation evidently is a lot more than alpha-global-coherence, that global-alpha-coherence may even have little to do with what is going on underneath. JaiGuruYou, -Buck, sitting in pure-awareness meditation prior to going out to check the sheep and do chores. Clover and rye are sown ready for spring rains. Life in the body. Rain likely, mainly before 10am. Chance of precipitation is 70%. New precipitation amounts of less than a tenth of an inch possible. anartaxius@... writes: Quotation J. Krishnamurti | (no date) When we stop fighting with ourselves, we aren't creating anymore conflict in our mind. Then our mind can for the first time relax and be still. Then for the first time our consciousness can become whole and unfragmented. Then total attention can be given to all of our thoughts and feelings. And then there will be found a gentleness and a goodness in us that can embrace all that is been given in the world. Then a deep love for everything will be the result of this deep attention. For this total attention, this soft and pure consciousness that we are, is nothing but love itself. (Note that he is talking about this while being awake and in activity) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Lots of people enjoy piling onto Maharishi about hopping like a frog being the first stage of Yogic Flying, with a latter stage being levitation, but as I pointed out, the _Shiva Samhita_ describes levitation as coming in various stages, including moving along the ground as a frog jumps (around verse 45ish I think) so this isn't something MMY made up. As well, when Herbert Benson wanted to investigate paranormal claims about meditation, he asked the Dalai Lama about it and was sent to a remote region of Tibet as he describes in his book: Timeless Healing by Herbert Benson https://books.google.com/books?id=jpLwDJppxqQCpg=PA166lpg=PA166dq=%22relaxation+response%22+levitationsource=blots=Yq4zV4heN7sig=50UtshUT0ja6FxxUL-D3zekXarchl=ensa=Xei=Gmr_VLCLC8nuoASAyYHQBQved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepageq=%22relaxation%20response%22%20levitationf=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jpLwDJppxqQCamp;pg=PA166amp;lpg=PA166amp;dq=%22relaxation+response%22+levitationamp;source=blamp;ots=Yq4zV4heN7amp;sig=50UtshUT0ja6FxxUL-D3zekXarcamp;hl=enamp;sa=Xamp;ei=Gmr_VLCLC8nuoASAyYHQBQamp;ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepageamp;q=%22relaxation%20response%22%20levitationamp;f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=jpLwDJppxqQCamp;pg=PA166amp;lpg=PA166amp;dq=%22relaxation+response%22+levitationamp;source=blamp;ots=Yq4zV4heN7amp;sig=50UtshUT0ja6FxxUL-D3zekXarcamp;hl=enamp;sa=Xamp;ei=Gmr_VLCLC8nuoASAyYHQBQamp;ved=0CC4Q6AEwAw#v=onepageamp;q=%22relaxation%20response%22%20levitationamp;f=false ...On other expeditions, my colleagues and I tried to confirm legendary reports that Tibetan monks levitate, rising and hovering above the ground during meditation. But when we were allwed to view the levitation of monks in the mountain hamlet of Chail, it appeared only to be an act of considerable physical agility in which monks, leg-locked in lotus position, sprang several inches off the floor. They did not hover. I was told through a translator that the sages of old had done so. When I asked, Is it possible today? the monk replied, with a twinkle in his eye, There is no need. Today we have airplanes. And, I should point out that the subjects for Fred Travis' study on the psychological and physiological correlates of enlightenment were mostly drawn from long-term participants in teh Invincible America course. The average foam time was about 15,000 hours. Further, the EEG of the TM-Sidhis, including Yogic Flying when hopping isn't involved, is TM-like, but with more coherence in non-alpha frequencies -in other words, more CC-like. So mocking people who sit on the foam in the Domes for years is an expression of both rudeness AND ignorance (of course those often go hand-in-hand). L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : [...] If we were to discover meditation tomorrow and start the nomenclature all over again would we still go for a unified field/pure consciousness/vedic infinity kind of approach? I think not. The emphasis would be mostly on what use it might possibly have, and that would be based on evidence and not the wild claims of the reesh. It would be a good project as we could disabuse people of the idea that it's something to do with physics from the get-go and thus remove a lot of tricksy cash cows from organisations like the TMO and also stop a lot of people spending all their lives sitting in domes waiting to fly and create a non-existent peace-field when they could be doing something they might be more proud of in later life. Would it be as much fun though?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
May be two sides of the same pure Consciousness coin, as hinted at by a previous contributor. You may be conflating going into Ecstacy (the Ecstatic state is a particular state described by certain Christian Saints and their observers in which to outwarded appearances, the subject is (as if) dead or totally unconsciousness.) While in Ecstasy, the Saint's body may be observed to levitate or engage in other mystical events. . Upon awakening to normal consciousness, the Saint may or may not have a memory of what transpired during the Ecstatic state. . Similarly, Ramakrishna made a big thing of going into Samadhi and being in a type of stupor. Sometimes he would be standing while in the state. His example appears to be close to what you are describing as a true state of Samadhi. .. However, it's unclear to me at least (not having experienced it), that one even has to go into the (to outward appearances) unconscious state at all. Was not Krishnamurti in Unity regardless of what he did: waking, dreaming, deep sleep, or whatever.? . Similarly, in the Sat Mat (Radhaswami) Tradition, a state of Ecstasy is recognized accompanied by the body appearing as if dead, in a state of apparent rigor mortis. . Short if any proof or scientific evidence for the existence of such state's, I can only go so far as to listen to what the Saints have to say with an open mind; and some day hope to gain similar experiential knowledge.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
But the dome but-bouncers haven't even gotten to the first (frog-hopping) stage, so it's more a matter of objectivity rather than rudeness. .. As far as even close to being credible, (imo) a good second hand account would be the chapter in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi on the levitating Saint (a practitioner of Kriya Yoga). There are other accounts of Kriya Yogin levitators besides Yogananda's. .. In any event, the Traditions of a. Kriya Yoga and b. Christianity; may be good candidates for exploring possible examples of true levitation (hovering); in contrast to the TM Tradition which is a dud.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Responses embedded following your text in the old school way of responding... L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : [...] Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients Meditation and Heart Health http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp (another AHA page) http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp Meditation and Heart Health http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp Lower stress, cardiovascular disease risk by meditating. Taking a few minutes to relax each day could help you lower your risks of cardiovascular disease. View on www.heart.org http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp Preview by Yahoo On the other hand, the only long-term study on mindfulness and high blood pressure I know of explicitly says that the effects of mindfulness on blood pressure go away after 2 or 3 years. What were the effects of the follow up on the TM study? I don't know, by the way. The 2012 study they refer to WAS the followup: Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients | American Heart Association http://newsroom.heart.org/news/meditation-may-reduce-death-heart-240647 http://newsroom.heart.org/news/meditation-may-reduce-death-heart-240647 Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in ... http://newsroom.heart.org/news/meditation-may-reduce-death-heart-240647 Study Highlights: Twice-a-day Transcendental Meditation helped African Americans with heart disease reduce risk of death, heart attack and stroke. Medit... View on newsroom.hea... http://newsroom.heart.org/news/meditation-may-reduce-death-heart-240647 Preview by Yahoo African Americans with heart disease who practiced Transcendental Meditation regularly were 48 percent less likely to have a heart attack http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/HeartAttack/Heart-Attack_UCM_001092_SubHomePage.jsp, stroke http://www.strokeassociation.org/STROKEORG/AboutStroke/About-Stroke_UCM_308529_SubHomePage.jsp or die from all causes compared with African Americans who attended a health education class over more than five years, according to new research published in the American Heart Association journal Circulation: Cardiovascular Quality and Outcomes. [...] Fred Travis has published physiological research on 17 people in CC and tells me that he has found at least 51 new CC subjects for a new physiological study on CC that he's doing. Anyone who wants 'enlightenment' really should aim a bit higher than CC, or 'glorified ignorance' as M said. CC is pretty common these days with so many meditators from various traditions having practised for many decades. I remain unconvinced of that. Many different states can be described the same way, and yet have completely different physiological correlates. CC, for example, seems to depend on strengthening the connections between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense-of-self (which typically is associated in scientific literature with mind-wandering and aimless thoughts) without associating any specific mental activity with the connectivity between the regions of the brain responsible for sense-of-self. The Self in CC is just what everyone else calls self, but without the ongoing mental stuff that clouds the issue about what Self really is or isn't. Other practices actually reduce connectivity between these same parts of the brain, and are held (by the scientists reporting the fact) to be reducing sense-of-self. And state that can be interpreted to sound like CC obviously isn't teh same thing as self goes away as a result of these practices. And as far as the claim that Unity isn't involved goes, I simplified Fred's papesr. He asked people who had Self present 24 hours per day, to describe their self and made physiological measures and correlated them with the response to the question and to other psychological measures. The only criterion was that Self was present 24 hours a day, including during deep sleep, continuously for at least a year. He didn't try to screen OUT people who were in higher states than CC. Here's teh response to the question Describe your self given by various enlightened subjects. Note that CC, GC, and UC-like responses were given by various people, but with only 17 subjects total, it wasn't possible to do sub-group analysis, so there's no way to say what physiological correlates there were for CC vs GC vs UC, if indeed there are any such distinctions to be found: Physiological correlates:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
So now you're saying that the Yogic Flyers aren't really hopping like a frog? Hmmm ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : But the dome but-bouncers haven't even gotten to the first (frog-hopping) stage, so it's more a matter of objectivity rather than rudeness. .. As far as even close to being credible, (imo) a good second hand account would be the chapter in Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi on the levitating Saint (a practitioner of Kriya Yoga). There are other accounts of Kriya Yogin levitators besides Yogananda's. .. In any event, the Traditions of a. Kriya Yoga and b. Christianity; may be good candidates for exploring possible examples of true levitation (hovering); in contrast to the TM Tradition which is a dud.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Absolutely! The Dome but-bouncers can even come close to the hopping of real frogs. Refer to the websites on the frog-jumping contests at the Calaveras County fair. One site shows Larry the Cable Guy holding one of the champion frogs. Larry would'nt be caught dead in the Domes.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Thanks for posting this sparaig. This is one of my hobby horses. Pure consciousness is precisely awareness without any thought, image or sensation. And no thought = no thinker. Robert K C Forman (a TM practitioner) has written on this topic, including The Problem of Pure Consciousness: Mysticism and Philosophy and (a better choice) Mysticism, Mind, Consciousness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Rolls eyes. You can force silence by distracting the mind and diverting resources away from the verbal centers or you can allow the mind to become more calm until silence is everywhere. Pure consciousness during TM is no mantra, no thought, no body awareness, no intuition, no emotion, no memory, no sensory awareness of any kind, not just no verbal thoughts. It occurs spontaneously, not at beck and call, and is accompanies by higher levels of alpha coherence in the frontal lobes, along with increased skin resistance, abrupt decrease i heart rate as well as an apparent cessation of breathing or at least abrupt drop in breath rate. It's hard to miss when you hook someone up to the right equipment, but what they found when the examined the woman who most consistently showed these signs, while using the most sophisticated eqiupment, was that she didn't notice the existence of the state, only the transition *out of* the state. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : No mantra-No thought Sounds the same. It is a correct experience of the practice of TM (second night checking) and evidently Mindfulness too Pure Awareness. # ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : [Scientific American article by Matthieu Ricard, Antoine Lutz, and Richard J. Davidson, Nov. 2014, p. 43] In our Wisconsin lab, we have studied experienced practioners while they performed an advanced form of mindfulness meditation called open presence. In open presence, sometimes called pure awareness, the mind is calm and relaxed, not focused on anything in particular yet vividly clear, free from excitation or dullness. The meditator observes and is open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation ...[the experimenters somehow induced some pain to experienced meditators, then compared the results to novices.] .We found that the intensity o0f the pain was not reduced in meditators, but it bothered them less than it did members of a control group. . Compared with novices, expert meditators' brain activity diminished in anxiety related regions - the insular cortex and the amygdala - in the period preceding the painful stimulus. . Other tests in our lab have shown that meditation training increases one's ability to better control and buffer basic physiological responses - inflammation or levels of a stress hormone - to a socially stressful task such as giving a public speech or doing mental arithmetic in front of a harsh jury. . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
People practising mindfulness (Vipassana) meditation appear to describe pure consciousness as a result as much as those practising TM, though, from what I have read of peoples' experiences, perhaps not quite so soon after starting meditation as TM practitioners. Perhaps part of the difficulty in discerning 'pure consciousness' is traditions other than TM do not seem to regard 'pure consciousness' as something separate from waking experience, they regard it as simultaneous with waking (as in CC) or as the essential aspect of waking experience (unity), while TM philosophy tends to separate it out as a sequential development of experiences. People learning mindfulness do seem to take a bit longer to experience settled meditations than those practising TM, but if we look at end results (enlightenment — Brahman in TM-speak) there does not seem to be a great distinguishing factor between them. There does not seem to be useful research allowing us to tell more specifically. If meditation is a valuable resource for life, perhaps the focus could be on what works best for people on an individual basis rather than on the particular system one is enamoured of because it is the only one that was tried. For improving life, I have heard people say of psychological non-meditative systems that 'It's the only way' to get out of problems. Success has been observed with people practising many different systems. Research on TM and Other Forms of Meditation Stinks March 8, 2013 | By John Horgan | Scientific American In response to my last post, which proposed that Transcendental Meditation and other cults might be exploiting the placebo effect, some readers cited studies supposedly showing that TM has therapeutic benefits. Well, sure. There are lots of studies showing that lots of forms of meditation can yield lots of benefits. But the research is unimpressive, to say the least, and is corrupted by the 'allegiance effect,' the tendency of proponents of a treatment to find evidence that it works. (The term was coined by a Lester Luborsky, a prominent psychotherapy researcher.) For a critical overview of meditation research, see a 2000 article in the Journal of Consciousness Studies, 'Meditation Meets Behavioral Medicine,' which I discussed in my 2003 book Rational Mysticism. Author Jensine Andresen, now a religious scholar at Columbia, reviewed more than 500 papers and books on meditation published over the last half century. Andresen cautioned that there are thousands of techniques that could be categorized as meditation; it is virtually impossible to define the term in a way that does justice to this vast diversity. Not surprisingly, she said, attempts to measure meditation's neurological effects with brain-wave monitors, positron emission tomography, and other techniques have yielded widely divergent findings. Meditation has been 'prodded and poked by a variety of technological apparati, with inconclusive results,' Andresen commented. For every report of increased activity in the frontal cortex or decreased activity in the amygdala, there is a conflicting finding. Investigations of meditation's therapeutic benefits have been equally inconclusive. Meditation has been linked to a dizzying array of benefits, including the alleviation of stress, anxiety, high blood pressure, substance abuse, hostility, pain, depression, asthma, premenstrual syndrome, infertility, insomnia, substance abuse and the side effects of chemotherapy. But many of these studies have been poorly designed, Andresen remarked, carried out with inadequate controls or no controls at all. Andresen noted that meditation has been linked to adverse side effects, too, including suggestibility, neuroticism, depression, suicidal impulses, insomnia, nightmares, anxiety, psychosis and dysphoria. In an implicit reference to the cultish context within which meditation is often taught, Andresen added that meditators may become vulnerable to 'manipulation and control by others,' including 'unscrupulous or delusional teachers.' A similar picture emerges from the 2007 peer-reviewed report 'Meditation practices for health: state of the research,' by the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. The report analyzed 813 studies of meditation and concluded that most were of 'poor quality.' The report stated: 'Many uncertainties surround the practice of meditation. Scientific research on meditation practices does not appear to have a common theoretical perspective and is characterized by poor methodological quality. Firm conclusions on the effects of meditation practices in healthcare cannot be drawn based on the available evidence.' If your particular form of meditation makes you feel good, do it! But don't kid yourself that its medical benefits have been scientifically proven. American Heart Association 2013 | American Heart Association A 2013 statement
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense of self. TM, on the other hand, is taught in terms of allowing the mind to wander, and physiological research shows that the same activity and interactions that mindfulness reduces, TM enhances. Interestingly enough, this review article, Towards a neuroscience of mind-wandering (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/) notes specifically that mind-wandering is essential for sense of self according to modern neuroscience theories, so to claim that mindfulness leads to the same kind of enlightenment as TM, where sense-of-self is perceived as the basis of all reality, is kinda odd: mindfulness disrupts the very foundation of such a perspective. Finally, citing that Scientific America citing a wikipedia page is hilarious (the text 'unknown/unclear/uncertain or not well-established' appears nowhere in the original article, even though it is quoted as though it does, so we know that the author cut and paste from wikipedia rather than reading the actual scientific statement from the American Heart Association). The quoted text is from an image included with the article to help explain what different wordings could be used for which category. In the case of Level IIB, the added words referred to comparison with Level IIA or higher and had no other meaning in context. As well, the SA author's points are even more out of date 2 years later, as a new review of research on TM and high blood pressure was published at the start of this year, lending further support to the idea that TM does have a consistent effect on high blood pressure. Investigating the effect of transcendental meditation on blood pressure: a systematic review and meta-analysis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25673114 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25673114 On the other hand, the only long-term study on mindfulness and high blood pressure I know of explicitly says that the effects of mindfulness on blood pressure go away after 2 or 3 years. Effects of stress reduction on cardiovascular risk factors in type 2 diabetes patients with early kidney disease - results of a randomized controlled trial (HEIDIS). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21713118 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21713118 ...Parallel to the reduction of stress levels after 1 year, the intervention-group additionally showed reduced catecholamine levels (p 0.05), improved 24 h-mean arterial (p 0.05) and maximum systolic blood pressure (p 0.01), as well as a reduction in IMT (p 0.01). However, these effects were lost after 2 and 3 years of follow-up. As far as J Krishnamurti goes, how many people became enlightened by listening to him? Fred Travis has published physiological research on 17 people in CC and tells me that he has found at least 51 new CC subjects for a new physiological study on CC that he's doing. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : People practising mindfulness (Vipassana) meditation appear to describe pure consciousness as a result as much as those practising TM, though, from what I have read of peoples' experiences, perhaps not quite so soon after starting meditation as TM practitioners. Perhaps part of the difficulty in discerning 'pure consciousness' is traditions other than TM do not seem to regard 'pure consciousness' as something separate from waking experience, they regard it as simultaneous with waking (as in CC) or as the essential aspect of waking experience (unity), while TM philosophy tends to separate it out as a sequential development of experiences. People learning mindfulness do seem to take a bit longer to experience settled meditations than those practising TM, but if we look at end results (enlightenment — Brahman in TM-speak) there does not seem to be a great distinguishing factor between them. There does not seem to be useful research allowing us to tell more specifically. If meditation is a valuable resource for life, perhaps the focus could be on what works best for people on an individual basis rather than on the particular system one is enamoured of because it is the only one that was tried. For
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
I was quoting comments on research to indicate that relying on research with the present level of quality is a fool's game. You are making the assumption that 'pure consciousness' is a specific meditative state instead of the ground of experience which includes what TM calls 'the relative' and this includes CC where pure consciousness is coincident with active experience, and Unity where the objects of experience are known as 'pure consciousness'. Whether you say the self expands to Self (TM) or whether you say the self vanishes and is replaced by the totality (mindfulness) makes no difference as they are the same thing expressed from opposite points of view. The individual sense of ego gets subsumed by a larger quality of experience, and it really matters not what it is called, because there is not real definition for it that does not imply limitation by verbal mental reductionism. I quoted Krishnamurti because Maharishi specifically said he was in Unity. And true, probably few or none ever got enlightened by him because he just popped in, and never really knew how it happened, but you are welcome to point out those whom Maharishi enlightened (that is, that are in unity, not CC). More comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Can you point me to contemporary mindfulness essays or research on contemporary mindfulness practitioners where they describe a situation where there is no thought, no mantra, no awareness of the outside world, no awareness of the body, no emotion, no intuition, no memory, no mind content of any kind, and yet the meditator is still somehow awake? Also, mindfulness practices tend to disrupt the sense of self, as has been reported in quite a few modern studies on practitioners. In fact, researchers note that mind-wandering simply does not happen in long-term practitioners and count this a good thing: they note quite happily, that mindfulness reduces activity and interactions between the parts of the brain thought to be responsible for sense of self. TM, on the other hand, is taught in terms of allowing the mind to wander, and physiological research shows that the same activity and interactions that mindfulness reduces, TM enhances. Interestingly enough, this review article, Towards a neuroscience of mind-wandering (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3112331/) notes specifically that mind-wandering is essential for sense of self according to modern neuroscience theories, so to claim that mindfulness leads to the same kind of enlightenment as TM, where sense-of-self is perceived as the basis of all reality, is kinda odd: mindfulness disrupts the very foundation of such a perspective. Finally, citing that Scientific America citing a wikipedia page is hilarious (the text 'unknown/unclear/uncertain or not well-established' appears nowhere in the original article, even though it is quoted as though it does, so we know that the author cut and paste from wikipedia rather than reading the actual scientific statement from the American Heart Association). The quoted text is from an image included with the article to help explain what different wordings could be used for which category. In the case of Level IIB, the added words referred to comparison with Level IIA or higher and had no other meaning in context. As well, the SA author's points are even more out of date 2 years later, as a new review of research on TM and high blood pressure was published at the start of this year, lending further support to the idea that TM does have a consistent effect on high blood pressure. Investigating the effect of transcendental meditation on blood pressure: a systematic review and meta-analysis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25673114 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25673114 Recall that the American Heart Association recommendation was based only on studies with African Americans. When I took the SCI course many years ago there was a (non African) woman in the class who had high blood pressure, and she was worried because in spite of practising TM, her blood pressure was still rising. There were also a lot of questions about that study, as it seemed to go through a number of odd last minute revisions and was published in a different journal at the last minute. The AHA headline for the news report of the study (emphasis added). Meditation may reduce death, heart attack and stroke in heart patients Meditation and Heart Health http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp (another AHA page) http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/More/MyHeartandStrokeNews/Meditation-and-Heart-Disease-Stroke_UCM_452930_Article.jsp Meditation and Heart Health
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Great quotes. The TM researchers and movement seem quite desperate to prove a negative, even if they don't experience it. So, they co-opt the discussion by defining their particular alpha-coherence as the definition of a transcendence. That makes it real easy to win an argument between meditation practices. The question remains still as to whether the TM'ers with all their investment in fancy equipment are close to measuring the right thing. Evidently spirituality is way more than alpha-wave-coherence. They obviously are not able to measure what all is going on with a spirituality of a soul in the whole body-mind complex, commonly referred to as embodying the spiritual heart-being. Is that why TM'er are commonly thought of as heartless and in the head? 'Spock-like'? There was a longer thread on this over at The_Peak recently. The Peak https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 The Peak https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 The Peak is an ongoing conversation about our journey as human beings, upwards towards the pinnacle, and fulfillment of our existence; Enlightenm... View on groups.yahoo.com https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 Preview by Yahoo From The_Peak, Thanks, good discernment extending this aspect of souls incarnating to 'origin of awareness' and a why or implication of incarnational life. Deferring here to my wife's experience with this from her career work with people as 'the Heart Field in addition to the Mental Field'.. She is quite eloquent on this from her experience with it. The Divine qualities of the Heart evidently are not linear like mental fields of the mind. In the mind those values are linear and thoughts. In the heart they are inward divine fields that extend out as field effects in life. Long-term meditators may have bright open upper mental fields but as a cultivated awakened super-mental purity which can be dry, calm and not blissful. An implication by contrast is that spiritually people die as they have lived, either in the head or heart. As people die you can feel the cultivated value in balance of what is mental and heart being. Meditators can be peaceful but also cold or dry simply in how people have lived their lives. This speaks to what is spiritually possible from cold and calm to expansive and open to a bliss experience as what can be done to cultivate larger spiritual values. For instance, Divine Friendliness, Compassion or Happiness is a relationship which is luscious in the energy field where it is activated. ..where the transcending happens in the heart. You can find this in some meditators as they have lived their lives. More than peace it is love. Brain waves do not necessarily translate in to heart-being but when 'calm' gets activated by the mechanism of the heart chakra. You can see super developed mental fields that are cold and serene but without a lusciousness or love. Soul-self is bliss-self in the incarnational light body. The soul in life wants to 'dip its toe' in to incarnation. The spark of jivan is in the heart chakra and when the heart stops the soul heads out. You can feel it as it happens when you are there. It is phenomenon as it happens while it happens if you are open to it. It is a miraculous coming and going in life. Some people are naturally cultivated in divine qualities of the heart, some have cultivated in life divine qualities of friendliness, compassion and happiness in the living of their lives. So people are afraid when without a fullness of the field of love there this is not cultivated in capacity the experience of love in the heart. Without activation of the divine qualities in the heart people are lonely otherwise and suffer spiritual grief. That can be worked with. It is that simple. In the heart of the matter: “In life know the glorious and in death just take the vale away.” Evidently there is more to spiritual life than just transcending. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : Rolls eyes. You can force silence by distracting the mind and diverting resources away from the verbal centers or you can allow the mind to become more calm until silence is everywhere. Pure consciousness during TM is no mantra, no thought, no body awareness, no intuition, no emotion, no memory, no sensory awareness of any kind, not just no verbal thoughts. It occurs spontaneously, not at beck and call, and is accompanies by higher levels of alpha coherence in the frontal lobes, along with increased skin resistance, abrupt decrease i heart rate as well as an apparent cessation of breathing or at least abrupt drop in breath rate. It's hard to miss when you hook someone up to the right equipment, but what they found when the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
You can only measure what y ou have the equipment to measure. However, it's a truism that just because two things can be described teh same way at one level, doesn't mean that they are identifical. My favorite example is what happened to some British friends many decades ago... They got a sweetheart travel package to visit Nashville. Nashville, Florida, that is. Just because you can describe a city as Nashville doesn't mean it is the Nashville you were hoping to visit. Unfortunately, they actually got on the plane and landed before they discovered their mistake. The moral is: a label, pure awareness, that is described as being without thought, might not be referring to the same thing between two different meditation traditions. A two-word phrase may not provide you enough info to make a rationale choice any more than just knowing the name of the city without knowing the state it is in is enough to make rationale travel plans. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : Great quotes. The TM researchers and movement seem quite desperate to prove a negative, even if they don't experience it. So, they co-opt the discussion by defining their particular alpha-coherence as the definition of a transcendence. That makes it real easy to win an argument between meditation practices. The question remains still as to whether the TM'ers with all their investment in fancy equipment are close to measuring the right thing. Evidently spirituality is way more than alpha-wave-coherence. They obviously are not able to measure what all is going on with a spirituality of a soul in the whole body-mind complex, commonly referred to as embodying the spiritual heart-being. Is that why TM'er are commonly thought of as heartless and in the head? 'Spock-like'? There was a longer thread on this over at The_Peak recently. The Peak https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 The Peak https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 The Peak is an ongoing conversation about our journey as human beings, upwards towards the pinnacle, and fulfillment of our existence; Enlightenm... View on groups.yahoo.com https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/the_peak/conversations/messages/3393 Preview by Yahoo From The_Peak, Thanks, good discernment extending this aspect of souls incarnating to 'origin of awareness' and a why or implication of incarnational life. Deferring here to my wife's experience with this from her career work with people as 'the Heart Field in addition to the Mental Field'.. She is quite eloquent on this from her experience with it. The Divine qualities of the Heart evidently are not linear like mental fields of the mind. In the mind those values are linear and thoughts. In the heart they are inward divine fields that extend out as field effects in life. Long-term meditators may have bright open upper mental fields but as a cultivated awakened super-mental purity which can be dry, calm and not blissful. An implication by contrast is that spiritually people die as they have lived, either in the head or heart. As people die you can feel the cultivated value in balance of what is mental and heart being. Meditators can be peaceful but also cold or dry simply in how people have lived their lives. This speaks to what is spiritually possible from cold and calm to expansive and open to a bliss experience as what can be done to cultivate larger spiritual values. For instance, Divine Friendliness, Compassion or Happiness is a relationship which is luscious in the energy field where it is activated. ..where the transcending happens in the heart. You can find this in some meditators as they have lived their lives. More than peace it is love. Brain waves do not necessarily translate in to heart-being but when 'calm' gets activated by the mechanism of the heart chakra. You can see super developed mental fields that are cold and serene but without a lusciousness or love. Soul-self is bliss-self in the incarnational light body. The soul in life wants to 'dip its toe' in to incarnation. The spark of jivan is in the heart chakra and when the heart stops the soul heads out. You can feel it as it happens when you are there. It is phenomenon as it happens while it happens if you are open to it. It is a miraculous coming and going in life. Some people are naturally cultivated in divine qualities of the heart, some have cultivated in life divine qualities of friendliness, compassion and happiness in the living of their lives. So people are afraid when without a fullness of the field of love there this is not cultivated in capacity the experience of love in the heart. Without activation of the divine qualities in the heart people are lonely otherwise
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : [Scientific American article by Matthieu Ricard, Antoine Lutz, and Richard J. Davidson, Nov. 2014, p. 43] In our Wisconsin lab, we have studied experienced practioners while they performed an advanced form of mindfulness meditation called open presence. In open presence, sometimes called pure awareness, the mind is calm and relaxed, not focused on anything in particular yet vividly clear, free from excitation or dullness. The meditator observes and is open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation ...[the experimenters somehow induced some pain to experienced meditators, then compared the results to novices.] .We found that the intensity o0f the pain was not reduced in meditators, but it bothered them less than it did members of a control group. . Compared with novices, expert meditators' brain activity diminished in anxiety related regions - the insular cortex and the amygdala - in the period preceding the painful stimulus. . Other tests in our lab have shown that meditation training increases one's ability to better control and buffer basic physiological responses - inflammation or levels of a stress hormone - to a socially stressful task such as giving a public speech or doing mental arithmetic in front of a harsh jury. . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
No mantra-No thought Sounds the same. It is a correct experience of the practice of TM (second night checking) and evidently Mindfulness too Pure Awareness. # ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : [Scientific American article by Matthieu Ricard, Antoine Lutz, and Richard J. Davidson, Nov. 2014, p. 43] In our Wisconsin lab, we have studied experienced practioners while they performed an advanced form of mindfulness meditation called open presence. In open presence, sometimes called pure awareness, the mind is calm and relaxed, not focused on anything in particular yet vividly clear, free from excitation or dullness. The meditator observes and is open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation ...[the experimenters somehow induced some pain to experienced meditators, then compared the results to novices.] .We found that the intensity o0f the pain was not reduced in meditators, but it bothered them less than it did members of a control group. . Compared with novices, expert meditators' brain activity diminished in anxiety related regions - the insular cortex and the amygdala - in the period preceding the painful stimulus. . Other tests in our lab have shown that meditation training increases one's ability to better control and buffer basic physiological responses - inflammation or levels of a stress hormone - to a socially stressful task such as giving a public speech or doing mental arithmetic in front of a harsh jury. . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: Mind of the Meditator
Rolls eyes. You can force silence by distracting the mind and diverting resources away from the verbal centers or you can allow the mind to become more calm until silence is everywhere. Pure consciousness during TM is no mantra, no thought, no body awareness, no intuition, no emotion, no memory, no sensory awareness of any kind, not just no verbal thoughts. It occurs spontaneously, not at beck and call, and is accompanies by higher levels of alpha coherence in the frontal lobes, along with increased skin resistance, abrupt decrease i heart rate as well as an apparent cessation of breathing or at least abrupt drop in breath rate. It's hard to miss when you hook someone up to the right equipment, but what they found when the examined the woman who most consistently showed these signs, while using the most sophisticated eqiupment, was that she didn't notice the existence of the state, only the transition *out of* the state. L ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, dhamiltony2k5@... wrote : No mantra-No thought Sounds the same. It is a correct experience of the practice of TM (second night checking) and evidently Mindfulness too Pure Awareness. # ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, LEnglish5@... wrote : What they call pure awareness is not what TMers call pure awareness. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, yifuxero@... wrote : [Scientific American article by Matthieu Ricard, Antoine Lutz, and Richard J. Davidson, Nov. 2014, p. 43] In our Wisconsin lab, we have studied experienced practioners while they performed an advanced form of mindfulness meditation called open presence. In open presence, sometimes called pure awareness, the mind is calm and relaxed, not focused on anything in particular yet vividly clear, free from excitation or dullness. The meditator observes and is open to experience without making any attempt to interpret, change, reject or ignore painful sensation ...[the experimenters somehow induced some pain to experienced meditators, then compared the results to novices.] .We found that the intensity o0f the pain was not reduced in meditators, but it bothered them less than it did members of a control group. . Compared with novices, expert meditators' brain activity diminished in anxiety related regions - the insular cortex and the amygdala - in the period preceding the painful stimulus. . Other tests in our lab have shown that meditation training increases one's ability to better control and buffer basic physiological responses - inflammation or levels of a stress hormone - to a socially stressful task such as giving a public speech or doing mental arithmetic in front of a harsh jury. . .
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
Good points about horses being prey animals and getting skittish around those who don't know what they are doing. I was an excellent and natural horseman when I was really little (7 to 9 years old). Then I grew up, realized what I was doing, and lost my confidence with the horses. Frowny face. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : When I wrote figuratively: You can almost sense their [a horse's] sneer it is probably more accurate to write They [horses] can smell your fear. I don't know what scientific research has been put into the facts behind common expressions like that but I feel sure horses can pick up on cues given off by our nervousness. It's as if it's beneath their dignity to allow themselves to be mastered by anyone but a natural-born master or mistress. Horses can simply see when a person moves in an unnatural way around them. They are honed to recognize strangeness or trepidation. They, like any prey animal, are hard wired to detect fear in another and that makes them fearful, it does not make them aggressive. Dogs would be more likely to start stalking a person that shows fear but horses simply become unsure and when they are in a situation where there are no clear boundaries they want to create them so they start to take over. But it isn't an aggressive or mean-spirited. Horses live in a herd, there is a hierarchy and if you are proving yourself a greenhorn then you're at the bottom of the pack - simple as that! It sounds like you should have been born into the world of the Houyhnhnms described in Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels. Houyhnhnms are a race of intelligent horses whose calm, rational, utopian society is compared favourably to our dismal lot. Heh. Well, if I believed in reincarnation, and I am pretty sure that I do, then I would hazard to say I was a horse or horses at some point. They are ingrained in me. It doesn't mean I am a great horsewoman, I am not particularly, but I feel them and love them and have tremendous empathy for them in all sorts of ways. I can also reprimand them when I need to - no mood making there - but they are special and iconic for a reason. They represent so much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. BTW, thanks for your amusing story of your short-lived riding career. I can't tell you how many times I have watched people in your situation and completely understand. You either come out of the womb loving it and if you didn't then forget about it. Riding is not really an acquired taste. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression?
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Good points about horses being prey animals and getting skittish around those who don't know what they are doing. I was an excellent and natural horseman when I was really little (7 to 9 years old). Then I grew up, realized what I was doing, and lost my confidence with the horses. Frowny face. I guess innocence produces a naturalness that, once you realized horses were dangerous and that you could be hurt around them (or was that it?), the innocence leaves and you realize too much of what could happen and that somehow stilted your behaviour around them. Then, of course, it becomes a vicious circle. Man feels unsure, horses feel unsure around man, horses become suspicious and skittish, man becomes suspicious and skittish and before you know it you buy a dog and forget the horses. LOL ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : When I wrote figuratively: You can almost sense their [a horse's] sneer it is probably more accurate to write They [horses] can smell your fear. I don't know what scientific research has been put into the facts behind common expressions like that but I feel sure horses can pick up on cues given off by our nervousness. It's as if it's beneath their dignity to allow themselves to be mastered by anyone but a natural-born master or mistress. Horses can simply see when a person moves in an unnatural way around them. They are honed to recognize strangeness or trepidation. They, like any prey animal, are hard wired to detect fear in another and that makes them fearful, it does not make them aggressive. Dogs would be more likely to start stalking a person that shows fear but horses simply become unsure and when they are in a situation where there are no clear boundaries they want to create them so they start to take over. But it isn't an aggressive or mean-spirited. Horses live in a herd, there is a hierarchy and if you are proving yourself a greenhorn then you're at the bottom of the pack - simple as that! It sounds like you should have been born into the world of the Houyhnhnms described in Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels. Houyhnhnms are a race of intelligent horses whose calm, rational, utopian society is compared favourably to our dismal lot. Heh. Well, if I believed in reincarnation, and I am pretty sure that I do, then I would hazard to say I was a horse or horses at some point. They are ingrained in me. It doesn't mean I am a great horsewoman, I am not particularly, but I feel them and love them and have tremendous empathy for them in all sorts of ways. I can also reprimand them when I need to - no mood making there - but they are special and iconic for a reason. They represent so much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. BTW, thanks for your amusing story of your short-lived riding career. I can't tell you how many times I have watched people in your situation and completely understand. You either come out of the womb loving it and if you didn't then forget about it. Riding is not really an acquired taste. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression?
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
Pretty much the way it was - I grew up, and saw how big and strong they were. I have lost that apprehension, but haven't explored riding for a long while at this point. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Good points about horses being prey animals and getting skittish around those who don't know what they are doing. I was an excellent and natural horseman when I was really little (7 to 9 years old). Then I grew up, realized what I was doing, and lost my confidence with the horses. Frowny face. I guess innocence produces a naturalness that, once you realized horses were dangerous and that you could be hurt around them (or was that it?), the innocence leaves and you realize too much of what could happen and that somehow stilted your behaviour around them. Then, of course, it becomes a vicious circle. Man feels unsure, horses feel unsure around man, horses become suspicious and skittish, man becomes suspicious and skittish and before you know it you buy a dog and forget the horses. LOL ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : When I wrote figuratively: You can almost sense their [a horse's] sneer it is probably more accurate to write They [horses] can smell your fear. I don't know what scientific research has been put into the facts behind common expressions like that but I feel sure horses can pick up on cues given off by our nervousness. It's as if it's beneath their dignity to allow themselves to be mastered by anyone but a natural-born master or mistress. Horses can simply see when a person moves in an unnatural way around them. They are honed to recognize strangeness or trepidation. They, like any prey animal, are hard wired to detect fear in another and that makes them fearful, it does not make them aggressive. Dogs would be more likely to start stalking a person that shows fear but horses simply become unsure and when they are in a situation where there are no clear boundaries they want to create them so they start to take over. But it isn't an aggressive or mean-spirited. Horses live in a herd, there is a hierarchy and if you are proving yourself a greenhorn then you're at the bottom of the pack - simple as that! It sounds like you should have been born into the world of the Houyhnhnms described in Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels. Houyhnhnms are a race of intelligent horses whose calm, rational, utopian society is compared favourably to our dismal lot. Heh. Well, if I believed in reincarnation, and I am pretty sure that I do, then I would hazard to say I was a horse or horses at some point. They are ingrained in me. It doesn't mean I am a great horsewoman, I am not particularly, but I feel them and love them and have tremendous empathy for them in all sorts of ways. I can also reprimand them when I need to - no mood making there - but they are special and iconic for a reason. They represent so much. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. BTW, thanks for your amusing story of your short-lived riding career. I can't tell you how many times I have watched people in your situation and completely understand. You either come out of the womb loving it and if you didn't then forget about it. Riding is not really an acquired taste. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression?
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I have has some experiences like this but with a close genetic relative.
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
Cool - does it ever happen out of meditation? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : I have has some experiences like this but with a close genetic relative.
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
Wow, Ann - What a beautiful explanation of riding a horse! Probably everyone who has ever done so, can relate to what you have written - I sometimes try to imagine my paternal grandfather's experience, who relied on true 'horsepower' for much of his life, and didn't see a car until he was almost fifty years old. A world of horses. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. No big prompting needed to get me to talk about animals so I will def get back to you on this. But, I am literally out the door to go ride in a clinic with a really good coach who has flown in for the weekend. I will report back after my ride... Want to hear more about your animal experiences as well. Later. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
Hey, thanks Curtis. Ever since I viewed that video about Anna Breytenbach that Ann posted I've tried my hand communicating with the doggies next store,and our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable to anyone in the family. I cannot report much in the way of results, but it has opened a channel for me, that heretofore, I had not really thought much about. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Hey, thanks Curtis. Ever since I viewed that video about Anna Breytenbach that Ann posted I've tried my hand communicating with the doggies next store,and our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable to anyone in the family. I cannot report much in the way of results, but it has opened a channel for me, that heretofore, I had not really thought much about. C: Some kitties have a wild gene that makes them spooky for life. I usually make friends the old fashioned way with food. Is your cat friendly with the person who feeds it? You can make yourself the source of food by doling out the food whenever you are home. Cats are opportunists which is why we have any association with basically a wild animal. Whenever you see your cat, try and establish eye contact and blink or look away. That is cat for everything is cool. Do you have a chase toy like a feather on a string with a stick for you to hold and fling the thing around? If a cat associates you with their continual martial arts training that can build a bond. But as I said in the beginning, some cats are just on flight or flight (I intended it that way!) You only win them over in inches. But even an inch into another creature's world can feel good sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not
particularly sociable to anyone in the family
Your cat is obviously the smartest dude in your neighborhood. Everyone else
should pay close attention to how this cat comports himself.
From: curtisdeltabl...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 4:34 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
--In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote :
Hey, thanks Curtis.
Ever since I viewed that video about Anna Breytenbach that Ann posted I've
tried my hand communicating with the doggies next store,and our cat, who is
afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable
to anyone in the family.
I cannot report much in the way of results, but it has opened a channel for me,
that heretofore, I had not really thought much about.
C: Some kitties have a wild gene that makes them spooky for life. I usually
make friends the old fashioned way with food. Is your cat friendly with the
person who feeds it? You can make yourself the source of food by doling out the
food whenever you are home. Cats are opportunists which is why we have any
association with basically a wild animal. Whenever you see your cat, try and
establish eye contact and blink or look away. That is cat for everything is
cool. Do you have a chase toy like a feather on a string with a stick for you
to hold and fling the thing around? If a cat associates you with their
continual martial arts training that can build a bond.
But as I said in the beginning, some cats are just on flight or flight (I
intended it that way!) You only win them over in inches. But even an inch into
another creature's world can feel good sometimes.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote :
I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach
the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a
little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on
an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what
your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe
some qualities of it?
I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets.
(I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.)
In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are
processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all
borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like
feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions.
I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about
horses here.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote :
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote :
This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with
my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the
boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I
always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am
suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room,
this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider
between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that
it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light).
I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding
the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple
that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to
appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free
will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and
communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the
horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the
horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order
to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through
space. It really is all that! #yiv2594609083 #yiv2594609083 --
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0;}#yiv2594609083 #yiv2594609083ygrp-mkp #yiv2594609083ads
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[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
That's cool Curtis. Yes, of course the cat likes my wife who is the provider of food. And I will sometimes insist on petting it, and then it can't resist the scratching under the chin, and will even start purring, but then it forgets that episode in a matter of minutes. I just feel cheated, because they are always a few minutes when I want to sit and watch some TV with a kitty on my lap, but he's chillin in some other corner of the house. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Hey, thanks Curtis. Ever since I viewed that video about Anna Breytenbach that Ann posted I've tried my hand communicating with the doggies next store,and our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable to anyone in the family. I cannot report much in the way of results, but it has opened a channel for me, that heretofore, I had not really thought much about. C: Some kitties have a wild gene that makes them spooky for life. I usually make friends the old fashioned way with food. Is your cat friendly with the person who feeds it? You can make yourself the source of food by doling out the food whenever you are home. Cats are opportunists which is why we have any association with basically a wild animal. Whenever you see your cat, try and establish eye contact and blink or look away. That is cat for everything is cool. Do you have a chase toy like a feather on a string with a stick for you to hold and fling the thing around? If a cat associates you with their continual martial arts training that can build a bond. But as I said in the beginning, some cats are just on flight or flight (I intended it that way!) You only win them over in inches. But even an inch into another creature's world can feel good sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I see, Michael. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable to anyone in the family Your cat is obviously the smartest dude in your neighborhood. Everyone else should pay close attention to how this cat comports himself. From: curtisdeltablues@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2014 4:34 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding --In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Hey, thanks Curtis. Ever since I viewed that video about Anna Breytenbach that Ann posted I've tried my hand communicating with the doggies next store,and our cat, who is afraid of me, even after ten years of kindness, and not particularly sociable to anyone in the family. I cannot report much in the way of results, but it has opened a channel for me, that heretofore, I had not really thought much about. C: Some kitties have a wild gene that makes them spooky for life. I usually make friends the old fashioned way with food. Is your cat friendly with the person who feeds it? You can make yourself the source of food by doling out the food whenever you are home. Cats are opportunists which is why we have any association with basically a wild animal. Whenever you see your cat, try and establish eye contact and blink or look away. That is cat for everything is cool. Do you have a chase toy like a feather on a string with a stick for you to hold and fling the thing around? If a cat associates you with their continual martial arts training that can build a bond. But as I said in the beginning, some cats are just on flight or flight (I intended it that way!) You only win them over in inches. But even an inch into another creature's world can feel good sometimes. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an animal with its own free will, its own ideas and you take its strong body and you sit on that body and communicate through touch what you would like to do and lo and behold, the horse responds and then your responsibility is to find a way to stay out of the horse's way, to integrate yourself with its mind and its physicality in order to become one thing moving as dynamically and effortlessly as possible through space. It really is all that!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : That's cool Curtis. Yes, of course the cat likes my wife who is the provider of food. And I will sometimes insist on petting it, and then it can't resist the scratching under the chin, and will even start purring, but then it forgets that episode in a matter of minutes. I just feel cheated, because they are always a few minutes when I want to sit and watch some TV with a kitty on my lap, but he's chillin in some other corner of the house. In my experience cats are still wild animals. They like certain comforts and so avail themselves of those things when readily accessible and when not too inconvenient. I never owned a cat except when I adopted a couple of brother kittens for a barn I owned. They were both feral and the SPCA wanted to put them down rather than adopt them out to an 'outside/outdoor' home. I sent a friend back in and had her embellish the truth about where the two kittens were going so that I could bring them to the farm. It worked, we adopted these two brothers who I named Dylan and Thomas and they lived happily ever after eating organic cat food, seeing the vet regularly and even when Dylan got his tail mysteriously broken I spent the $600 to have it amputated and tended to (it broke right at the base of the poor guy's spine). But to be perfectly honest with you, I am not a cat fan. They live a little bit too much in their own world to be as accessible as I would like them to be in order to be able to consider them an actual pet. They can be unpredictable, cold, distant and unavailable just when you were hoping for a little lovin'. They are amazing creatures and very beautiful in their form and their agility. They are so wonderfully creepy sometimes too when they hop sideways all arched up and stiff-legged. So I get where you're coming from, Steve. Having a cat that won't trust and really love you after ten years is pushing the definition of pet past the point of no return.
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I gotta say that the wild gene or not makes all the difference. I chose two purebred cats, a Bengal and and Abyssinian who came home with me at 6 weeks. They lived with me as my constant companions at home for 20 and 19 years. When you get a cat who is bred into a loving family who socializes them after birth to love humans, you can enter into feline intelligence, and it is a wonderland. Without the prefontal cortex restraints on their emotional lives, they can focus a love beam on you that is heart melting and powerful. My kitties lived to please me and learned many tricks. But what always amazed visitors the most was the stream of communication through their eyes. Constantly monitoring me as I was them. It was the opposite of cold and distant, I never saw that behavior from them. They came when I called them every time. It was high bandwidth flow and I miss it dearly. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : That's cool Curtis. Yes, of course the cat likes my wife who is the provider of food. And I will sometimes insist on petting it, and then it can't resist the scratching under the chin, and will even start purring, but then it forgets that episode in a matter of minutes. I just feel cheated, because they are always a few minutes when I want to sit and watch some TV with a kitty on my lap, but he's chillin in some other corner of the house. In my experience cats are still wild animals. They like certain comforts and so avail themselves of those things when readily accessible and when not too inconvenient. I never owned a cat except when I adopted a couple of brother kittens for a barn I owned. They were both feral and the SPCA wanted to put them down rather than adopt them out to an 'outside/outdoor' home. I sent a friend back in and had her embellish the truth about where the two kittens were going so that I could bring them to the farm. It worked, we adopted these two brothers who I named Dylan and Thomas and they lived happily ever after eating organic cat food, seeing the vet regularly and even when Dylan got his tail mysteriously broken I spent the $600 to have it amputated and tended to (it broke right at the base of the poor guy's spine). But to be perfectly honest with you, I am not a cat fan. They live a little bit too much in their own world to be as accessible as I would like them to be in order to be able to consider them an actual pet. They can be unpredictable, cold, distant and unavailable just when you were hoping for a little lovin'. They are amazing creatures and very beautiful in their form and their agility. They are so wonderfully creepy sometimes too when they hop sideways all arched up and stiff-legged. So I get where you're coming from, Steve. Having a cat that won't trust and really love you after ten years is pushing the definition of pet past the point of no return.
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? This is not hard to do, my safety depends upon it. When you are intimately connected to a horse's body (as a good rider inevitably is) then you have access to many things. First, without getting too complicated here, you have a literal feel of the horses mouth and lips in both hands, you ass is sitting on its back which is where all the movement happens, and your legs are embracing his lungs and heart area. With this kind of touching you'd have to be an insensitive cretin not to have some idea what is going on in the actual brain of the horse. (Unfortunately, the horse world is filled with insensitive cretins but that is another story.) Basically horses can be a little like cats. One minute they are calm and sedate and the next moment they are running sideways down the arena. They can appear aloof and untouched by your presence and at other times can't get in your pocket fast enough. There is a whole lot of wild still in there as well. And they are total pushovers for the hand that feeds them but only if you have the actual bucket in your hand at the time - otherwise you're just another schlep. But then there are those times when you can be convinced that the horse is actually glad to see you, just you with no bucket. But, I digress. So, basically when you're all in touch with the horse, in that saddle and riding along asking him to do all sorts of natural and unnatural things and he is happy to do so that is because you are asking for the right thing at the right moment and then allowing it to happen. In order to know what to ask and when to ask and how to ask and then when to stop asking means you have to know the mind of the horse to a certain extent. You have to know what he knows, you have to know if you prepared him in the moments before asking and then you have to know how much to ask and when it is too much or not enough and then you have to figure out if his resistance is mental or physical. There are so many calculations to make in order to do just one movement that it transcends thinking. You don't have time to think all those things. So then what? It means you feel it. In order to feel it you have to know something about yourself and also something about the horse. And you end up making mistakes all the time. You end up betraying the horse or causing them resentment toward you. You can give them ulcers or hurt their bodies by breaking them - literally. They are very, very delicate. They basically die of only two things - intestinal issues and leg issues. Many of these things are brought about by people's insensitivity and by forcing. When you climb on the back of these animals you have a real responsibility because for as strong and willing and giving as these animals are, all of that can be destroyed by selfishness or greed or ego. I don't think I answered your question after all that. I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : This is an interesting experience that always happens when I practice TM with my wife. I can feel my nearly pure awareness contact hers, and then the boundary is gone, and it is simply oneness, without boundary or ownership. I always flinch mentally, just as the boundary dissolves. It is as if I am suspended in an empty room, dimly lit by blue lights, and I sense another room, this one also empty, but dimly lit by purple lights. Then, suddenly the divider between the two is gone, and it is one room. This is probably more common that it sounds, especially given Share's experience in the dome (ovals of light). I only get this riding my horse! The athletic movement of the horse and finding the way in which my body can work and move with his back is the goal. Couple that with the mental partnership of asking and responding and you can start to appreciate why this sport is so amazing. You take an
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression?
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues@... wrote : I am fascinated by animal intelligence and am always curious if I can breach the rapport barrier and connect with their intelligence enough to understand a little bit of what is going on in there. Although I know this may be verging on an idiotic question Ann, I will ask it anyway. Can you describe at all what your impression is of what is going in in a horse's mind enough to describe some qualities of it? This is not hard to do, my safety depends upon it. When you are intimately connected to a horse's body (as a good rider inevitably is) then you have access to many things. First, without getting too complicated here, you have a literal feel of the horses mouth and lips in both hands, you ass is sitting on its back which is where all the movement happens, and your legs are embracing his lungs and heart area. With this kind of touching you'd have to be an insensitive cretin not to have some idea what is going on in the actual brain of the horse. (Unfortunately, the horse world is filled with insensitive cretins but that is another story.) Basically horses can be a little like cats. One minute they are calm and sedate and the next moment they are running sideways down the arena. They can appear aloof and untouched by your presence and at other times can't get in your pocket fast enough. There is a whole lot of wild still in there as well. And they are total pushovers for the hand that feeds them but only if you have the actual bucket in your hand at the time - otherwise you're just another schlep. But then there are those times when you can be convinced that the horse is actually glad to see you, just you with no bucket. But, I digress. So, basically when you're all in touch with the horse, in that saddle and riding along asking him to do all sorts of natural and unnatural things and he is happy to do so that is because you are asking for the right thing at the right moment and then allowing it to happen. In order to know what to ask and when to ask and how to ask and then when to stop asking means you have to know the mind of the horse to a certain extent. You have to know what he knows, you have to know if you prepared him in the moments before asking and then you have to know how much to ask and when it is too much or not enough and then you have to figure out if his resistance is mental or physical. There are so many calculations to make in order to do just one movement that it transcends thinking. You don't have time to think all those things. So then what? It means you feel it. In order to feel it you have to know something about yourself and also something about the horse. And you end up making mistakes all the time. You end up betraying the horse or causing them resentment toward you. You can give them ulcers or hurt their bodies by breaking them - literally. They are very, very delicate. They basically die of only two things - intestinal issues and leg issues. Many of these things are brought about by people's insensitivity and by forcing. When you climb on the back of these animals you have a real responsibility because for as strong and willing and giving as these animals are, all of that can be destroyed by selfishness or greed or ego. I don't think I answered your question after all that. I have had profound connections with a squirrel monkey, cats dogs and ferrets. (I am excluding gerbils because the obvious jokes would just write themselves.) In my interactions with them I have come to some conclusions about how they are processing the world differently from each other, and from me. It is all borderline fantasy, but if you interact enough you kind of get a sense, like feeling some object in the dark and drawing conclusions. I hope that serves as a writing prompt because I love when you write about horses here. ---In
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? Well, it is a man's world out there in the racing circles and you have to carry a certain amount of weight depending upon how the horse is handicapped so the lighter is not the better, you just don't want to weigh more than the horse is slotted to carry, obviously. Women have had a hard time breaking into the bigger more well-known races and tracks although there have been some wonderful women jockeys and they can definitely ride as well as men. You'll see a much more equal distribution of women to men in all the other riding disciplines except bronco busting and bull riding. Women are simply too smart to do that. From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression? Yes, generally if I have to choose between spending an afternoon with a few dogs or horses or spending it with a bunch of people I would say it would be the former. I also prefer long solitary walks in the forest to tripping down to my local mall. But it really depends. I spend enough time here at FFL and there seems to be people (of sorts) here!
[FairfieldLife] Re: mind melding
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, s3raphita@... wrote : I'm sure horses can tell a novice at first glance. You can almost sense their sneer. My only goes at horse-riding were as an adolescent and the horses always completely ignored my requests and goads. If a horse I was on wanted to stop and munch away at a hedge then that was what it would do. My instructor would have to come to my aid to get the damned beast (sorry - charming animal) keep up with the rest of the riders. BTW, thanks for your amusing story of your short-lived riding career. I can't tell you how many times I have watched people in your situation and completely understand. You either come out of the womb loving it and if you didn't then forget about it. Riding is not really an acquired taste. Horses are also damned scary - they're a lot bigger than you imagine when you watch a cowboy movie and don't suffer fools gladly. Still, astonishingly beautiful and graceful creatures for all that. On a side issue: as race-horse jockeys are specifically chosen because they weigh so little why aren't women (or even girl) riders preferred over men for events where serious amounts of money are changing hands? From your recent posts I get the strong impression you prefer animals to humans! Is that (understandably) a correct impression?
