date:20060107

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience"
> of CC.

Because your experience is different, or just because
of the writing style?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Handed out on one of the TTCs. I think La Antilla
> 
> Thanks Rick! One of the best posts I've seen on FFL. Really clearly 
> defined, well written indicators.

This list is the basis, BTW, of the "20 Green
Lights to CC" advanced lecture Peter Muldaven
used to deliver at the Manhattan Center.  I had
mentioned it awhile back (as a way of identifying
Peter, whose last name I'd forgotten).




>  
> > 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.
> >  
> > 1) Spontaneity - Loss of self-analysis. Why do we not behave 
> spontaneously
> > prior to C.C.? Because of lack of understanding of the laws of 
> action and
> > reaction, cause and effect - we analyze and control behaviour in 
> an attempt
> > to bring about effects which we want. C.C. creates a situation 
> v/'here
> > intellectual understanding of right and wrong, cause and effect, 
is
> > unnecessary because of living the spontaneous benefit of that 
> knowledge at
> > all times. Transition from lack of spontaneity to spontaneity is 
> often
> > awkward, because we can't get used to the fact that life is easy. 
> We
> > sometimes mistake spontaneity for lack of responsibility, because 
> we find
> > that we don't worry so much, but the end result of the 
spontaneity 
> of action
> > in C.C. is greater success, responsibility, etc. than before.
> >  
> > 2) Change in relationship to time - "Living in the eternal 
> present." We
> > often find that in ignorance we live a curious blend of past and 
> future -
> > past experiences, memories, etc. and future hopes, which does not 
> allow for
> > maximum enjoyment of each present moment. In C.C. past 
impressions 
> which are
> > useful to present experience come when necessary - no need to 
> dwell on them,
> > try to remember, etc. Future is assuredly going to better with 
more
> > expansion of consciousness, so no need to spend a lot of energy 
> worrying and
> > thinking about the future. "Time is a conception to measure 
> eternity."
> >  
> > 3) Less extraneous thoughts - Mind is always collecting things 
> which * it
> > holds in case they may prove useful some day, thus prior to C.C. 
> the mind is
> > filled with thoughts which do not add to efficiency, thoughts 
> which just add
> > clutter to the mind. Less thoughts do not mean dullness of mind, 
> but each
> > thought has more power because thoughts are more relevant to the 
> needs of
> > the moment - thought energy is more concentrated.
> >  
> > 4) Greater energy and greater calm - We don't just release 
stress, 
> we
> > simultaneously strengthen the nervous system and enliven finer 
> aspects of
> > the nervous system, i.e. tap finer levels of energy. So the 
> calmness of C.C.
> > is not passivity - example of racing a machine as opposed to 
> refining the
> > functioning.
> >  
> > 5) Awakeness, sharp perception - Change of definition of 
> alertness, not just
> > disappearance of dullness. Perception not only becomes broader, 
> but also
> > gains greater ability to focus on a point more intensely, i.e. 
> greater
> > ability to concentrate, but not based on effort to concentrate.
> >  
> > 6) Joy - C.C. is more fun. Joy based on bliss-consciousness does 
> not replace
> > relative joys - it enriches them; we no longer depend on relative 
> joys for
> > fulfillment, so enjoyment is not limited by our experience. 
> Transition to
> > more blissful inner state can seem unrealistic at first, because 
> we are so
> > used to attributing our happiness to outer events. We expect to 
> suffer in
> > certain situations because we always have before, and when we 
> cease to
> > suffer in the same circumstances, we may feel that we're not 
> taking life
> > seriously, becoming too frivolous, etc. Definition of happiness 
> changes.
> >  
> > 7) Sense of humour - Natural result of joy in life.
> >  
> > 8) Efficiency - All of the above points add to efficiency in 
> action. More
> > powerful, more orderly thoughts produce smoother action. 
> Spontaneity does
> > not waste as much time in unnecessary analysis. Greater energy and
> > relaxation produces smoother, more effortless action - do less and
> > accomplish more. Clearer, more awake perception obviously allows 
> us to see
> > how to "clean up" the process of activity. Joy in activity keeps 
> the mind
> > naturally engaged in performing the action.
> >  
> > 9) Witnessing, detachment - Most easily misunderstood aspect of 
> C.C. because
> > of our definition of the word detachment in the waking state. We 
> tend to
> > imagine detachment as "feelings detached from action," intellect 
> detached
> > from action," etc. whereas it is absolute pure consciousness 
which 
> is
> > separate from relativity (feelings, intellect, etc. are included 
in
> > relativity). Transition to this state of Self separate from 
> activity is
> > an

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Peter

--- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> "experience"
> > of CC.
> 
> Because your experience is different, or just
> because
> of the writing style?

A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
largely different than the author of this post and the
author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. But
then again, perhaps the distinctions have to do with
two different minds in the context of CC. I'd love to
talk directly with the author and ask him/her about
their experiences and why they make some of these
points. Obviously they are making distinctions that
are relevant to their experiencing, not mine. 

> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> and click 'Join This Group!' 
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> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>  
> 
> 
> 
> 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



Presumably they're from Mahesh himself, no?On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Peter wrote:This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience" of CC. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

2006-01-07 Thread lupidus108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >  It starter millions on the path
> > of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said in 1974
> > when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was the
> > predecessor to the Maitreya.
> 
Which is exactly what I have been thinking for years. However Maitreya 
has not yet, at least not officially, announced His presence in the 
world. 
For more information, please see: 

http://shareintl.org/magazine/SI_current.htm
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Digest Number 4224

2006-01-07 Thread Richard J. Williams

> > If it takes 30 years to figure out that TM does 
> > not get you enlightened then you know it is not 
> > increasing your IQ!
> >
TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This has my vote as Best FFL Quote of 2006 so far. :-)
>
Maharishi said as much back in 1968: "It is not the technique of
Transcedental Meditation that brings enlightenment - the Absolute is
already there. Transcendental Meditation simply provides the ideal
opportunity for transcneding." You are not going to get any more
enlightenment than you are going to get. According to Brahmanand
Saraswati, the Light needs no other light to illuminate it. According
to Patanjali, yoga techniques promote the isolation of the purusha and
the prakriti. You need to get some smarts, TurquoiseB - haven't you
attended any of the Maharishi's lectures? If not, maybe you should at
least listen to some of the Maharishi's tapes or CDs. 





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- Peter wrote:
>
> my intellectual
> concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> largely different than the author of this post and the
> author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. 

Most of these 20 questions strike me as a description 
of self-actualization that could exist with or without 
cosmic consciousness.

This list epitomizes a central conundrum to this forum, 
which is, What's the connection between awakening and 
behavior? Maharishi says the connection is strong.  This
 forum suggests the connection is tenuous.

Examples of the "strong connection" school are shown 
by the questions on the second night of checking form, 
such as "Have you noticed any indication of increasing 
clarity of mind?" and "Have you noticed any improvement 
in your relationship with others?" It's extremely common 
for most people to respond "Yes" to both questions. 

Examples of the "tenuous connection" school include 
the stories of supposedly enlightened gurus who manipulate 
their students for sex and money.

One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do 
was make a connection between spiritual growth and 
practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher 
connection than I ever imagined it would be.

20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

1) Spontaneity - Loss of self-analysis. Why do we not behave spontaneously 
prior to C.C.? 
Because of lack of understanding of the laws of action and reaction, cause and 
effect - we 
analyze and control behaviour in an attempt to bring about effects which we 
want. C.C. 
creates a situation v/'here intellectual understanding of right and wrong, 
cause and effect, 
is unnecessary because of living the spontaneous benefit of that knowledge at 
all times. 
Transition from lack of spontaneity to spontaneity is often awkward, because we 
can't get 
used to the fact that life is easy. We sometimes mistake spontaneity for lack 
of 
responsibility, because we find that we don't worry so much, but the end result 
of the 
spontaneity of action in C.C. is greater success, responsibility, etc. than 
before.

2) Change in relationship to time - "Living in the eternal present." We often 
find that in 
ignorance we live a curious blend of past and future - past experiences, 
memories, etc. 
and future hopes, which does not allow for maximum enjoyment of each present 
moment. 
In C.C. past impressions which are useful to present experience come when 
necessary - 
no need to dwell on them, try to remember, etc. Future is assuredly going to 
better with 
more expansion of consciousness, so no need to spend a lot of energy worrying 
and 
thinking about the future. "Time is a conception to measure eternity."

3) Less extraneous thoughts - Mind is always collecting things which * it holds 
in case 
they may prove useful some day, thus prior to C.C. the mind is filled with 
thoughts which 
do not add to efficiency, thoughts which just add clutter to the mind. Less 
thoughts do not 
mean dullness of mind, but each thought has more power because thoughts are 
more 
relevant to the needs of the moment - thought energy is more concentrated.

4) Greater energy and greater calm - We don't just release stress, we 
simultaneously 
strengthen the nervous system and enliven finer aspects of the nervous system, 
i.e. tap 
finer levels of energy. So the calmness of C.C. is not passivity - example of 
racing a 
machine as opposed to refining the functioning.

5) Awakeness, sharp perception - Change of definition of alertness, not just 
disappearance of dullness. Perception not only becomes broader, but also gains 
greater 
ability to focus on a point more intensely, i.e. greater ability to 
concentrate, but not based 
on effort to concentrate.

6) Joy - C.C. is more fun. Joy based on bliss-consciousness does not replace 
relative joys - 
it enriches them; we no longer depend on relative joys for fulfillment, so 
enjoyment is not 
limited by our experience. Transition to more blissful inner state can seem 
unrealistic at 
first, because we are so used to attributing our happiness to outer events. We 
expect to 
suffer in certain situations because we always have before, and when we cease 
to suffer in 
the same circumstances, we may feel that we're not taking life seriously, 
becoming too 
frivolous, etc. Definition of happiness changes.

7) Sense of humour - Natural result of joy in life.

8) Efficiency - All of the above points add to efficiency in action. More 
powerful, more 
orderly thoughts produce smoother action. Spontaneity does not waste as much 
time in 
unnecessary analysis. Greater energy and relaxation produces smoother, more 
effortless 
action - do less and accomplish more. Clearer, more awake perception obviously 
allows us 
to see how to "clean up" the process of activity. Joy in activity keeps the 
mind naturally 
engaged in performing the action.

9) Witnessing, detachment - Most easily misunder

[FairfieldLife] How can we understand uneven development in teachers?



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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> > "experience"
> > > of CC.
> > 
> > Because your experience is different, or just
> > because of the writing style?
> 
> A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
> concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> largely different than the author of this post and the
> author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC.

Such as?  (Curious, not challenging you.)

On the basis of the writing style and phrasing, I'd
guess the person who composed the list based it
on things MMY had said, or--more likely, perhaps--
wrote it at MMY's direction.

Doesn't *necessarily* mean the writer hadn't had the
experiences described, but I agree that it doesn't
sound like a personal report (again, based just on
the style).

 But
> then again, perhaps the distinctions have to do with
> two different minds in the context of CC. I'd love to
> talk directly with the author and ask him/her about
> their experiences and why they make some of these
> points. Obviously they are making distinctions that
> are relevant to their experiencing, not mine. 

Or was trying to generalize, pick some of the more
common types of experiences that would be relatively
easy for folks to recognize?

The point was made repeatedly in the "20 Green Lights
to CC" advanced lecture, as I recall, that experiences
of individuals would vary; and that if you didn't have
some of them, that didn't mean you weren't seeing
progress in the direction of CC.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do was make a connection between spiritual growth and practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher connection than I ever imagined it would be. That's because, IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of transformation to uproot vasanas. Vasana-kshaya, the obliteration of subliminal tendencies (desires), takes place at a different level of practice.I liked the example Alan Wallace gave in the video link posted here the other day: the issue with samadhi is people would go into these sublime states and be wowed by the bliss--but when they came out of samadhi, they really hadn't changed! That's the problem with marketing something as being able to be everything and do everything--people begin to actually believe if they do something over and over improvement in vasanas will just happen. Sadly, increasing prices on something just reinforces the idea: 'if it is so expensive, it must be because it CAN do everything.'If you're not doing practices to obliterate vasanas, then don't expects that to just happen.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- Peter wrote:
> >
> > my intellectual
> > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. 
> 
> Most of these 20 questions strike me as a description 
> of self-actualization that could exist with or without 
> cosmic consciousness.

I've always figured that what is called "self-
actualization" *is* what MMY calls CC, but that
the term was coined by someone who had no background
in Eastern-type teaching about enlightenment, and
was observing people who may not have been
familiar with it either--who weren't practicing
techniques for enlightenment but were developing
in that direction naturally.  So the term "self-
actualization" wasn't used with reference to
states of consciousness per se.

> This list epitomizes a central conundrum to this forum, 
> which is, What's the connection between awakening and 
> behavior? Maharishi says the connection is strong.  This
>  forum suggests the connection is tenuous.

Most of the points on the list, however, have to do
with subjective experience rather than behavior, no?

> Examples of the "strong connection" school are shown 
> by the questions on the second night of checking form, 
> such as "Have you noticed any indication of increasing 
> clarity of mind?" and "Have you noticed any improvement 
> in your relationship with others?" It's extremely common 
> for most people to respond "Yes" to both questions. 
> 
> Examples of the "tenuous connection" school include 
> the stories of supposedly enlightened gurus who manipulate 
> their students for sex and money.
> 
> One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do 
> was make a connection between spiritual growth and 
> practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher 
> connection than I ever imagined it would be.
> 
> 
> 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.
>  
> 1) Spontaneity - Loss of self-analysis. Why do we not behave 
spontaneously prior to C.C.? 
> Because of lack of understanding of the laws of action and 
reaction, cause and effect - we 
> analyze and control behaviour in an attempt to bring about effects 
which we want. C.C. 
> creates a situation v/'here intellectual understanding of right and 
wrong, cause and effect, 
> is unnecessary because of living the spontaneous benefit of that 
knowledge at all times. 
> Transition from lack of spontaneity to spontaneity is often 
awkward, because we can't get 
> used to the fact that life is easy. We sometimes mistake 
spontaneity for lack of 
> responsibility, because we find that we don't worry so much, but 
the end result of the 
> spontaneity of action in C.C. is greater success, responsibility, 
etc. than before.
>  
> 2) Change in relationship to time - "Living in the eternal 
present." We often find that in 
> ignorance we live a curious blend of past and future - past 
experiences, memories, etc. 
> and future hopes, which does not allow for maximum enjoyment of 
each present moment. 
> In C.C. past impressions which are useful to present experience 
come when necessary - 
> no need to dwell on them, try to remember, etc. Future is assuredly 
going to better with 
> more expansion of consciousness, so no need to spend a lot of 
energy worrying and 
> thinking about the future. "Time is a conception to measure 
eternity."
>  
> 3) Less extraneous thoughts - Mind is always collecting things 
which * it holds in case 
> they may prove useful some day, thus prior to C.C. the mind is 
filled with thoughts which 
> do not add to efficiency, thoughts which just add clutter to the 
mind. Less thoughts do not 
> mean dullness of mind, but each thought has more power because 
thoughts are more 
> relevant to the needs of the moment - thought energy is more 
concentrated.
>  
> 4) Greater energy and greater calm - We don't just release stress, 
we simultaneously 
> strengthen the nervous system and enliven finer aspects of the 
nervous system, i.e. tap 
> finer levels of energy. So the calmness of C.C. is not passivity - 
example of racing a 
> machine as opposed to refining the functioning.
>  
> 5) Awakeness, sharp perception - Change of definition of alertness, 
not just 
> disappearance of dullness. Perception not only becomes broader, but 
also gains greater 
> ability to focus on a point more intensely, i.e. greater ability to 
concentrate, but not based 
> on effort to concentrate.
>  
> 6) Joy - C.C. is more fun. Joy based on bliss-consciousness does 
not replace relative joys - 
> it enriches them; we no longer depend on relative joys for 
fulfillment, so enjoyment is not 
> limited by our experience. Transition to more blissful inner state 
can seem unrealistic at 
> first, because we are so used to attributing our happiness to outer 
events. We expect to 
> suffer in certain

[FairfieldLife] Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Tom T:
> > > > An old politician who had been a chicken farmer for the first 50 
> > > > years of his life put it to me this way. Son you have got to
learn 
> > > > you are never going to win when you get in a p*ssing contest
with a 
> > > > skunk. That advice has been ignored from time to time by me
and it 
> > > > has always ended up with me getting p*ssed on. If I remember to 
> > > > avoid the skunkns in the first place, life is a lot smoother and 
> > > > sweeter. i have noticed there  some here on FFlife who definitaly 
> > > > fall into that category. Oh well we eventually get it. Tom T
> > > 
> > > You know, Tom, when the only way you can deal
> > > with someone who disagrees with you is by 
> > > dehumanizing them and reducing them in your
> > > mind to the status of an animal, you should
> > > probably take a step back and ask yourself why
> > > it is that you find other human beings so very
> > > threatening.
> > 
> > It is fascinating that someone, particularly an enlightened being, can
> > negatively characterize others as skunks -- parphrasing -- "skunks
> > p*ss all over others"  -- and fail to see that their characterization
> > parallels that of a skunk -- p*ssing all over others. 
> > 
> > And I thought someone in Brahman Consciousness saw all things as
> > Brahman. Whose nature is Ananda -- Bliss. Whatever. But is is a shame
> > when Brahman wakes up on the wrong side of the loka and is grumpy.
> > Sort of puts a gloomy cast of all of creation.
> > 
> > And while some will see some humor and irony in the above, Peter will
> > undoubtedly see rage and anger. Seeing himself in all things? 
> > 
> > Enlightenment. What a trip!
> >
> 
> Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or
> conditioned mind?

I think the term "enlightenment" is a label, that serves little
positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear
that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those
from different "traditions" and even those proclaiming to be living
the label. Just today's post illustrates such. 

Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree
on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.  

Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various
traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question
about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in
enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated
emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found --
and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. 

(Though ironically, thre is some "individuality" in the "peter-sphere"
that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets "bent out of shape"
and lashes out in anger.) 

And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and
with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in
enlightenment, but it no longer "rules" like it does pre-enlightnment
-- it becomes subordinate to the Self. 

Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there
is no ego in enlightenment is insane.

And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question
stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and
conditioned mind) in enlightnement. 

Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he
simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then "realized" 
that whcih he defined, and then started using the title "enlightenment
-- even though his definition was his own and neither a "traditional"
one nor the TMO one.

And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of
diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. 

Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc as "baby
realization" or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you refer to the archives,
you will find a post from Tom where he "ranted" on and on (IMO) in a
long post why calling cc as "baby" anything was paraphrasing, stupid,
insane and agenda laden. 

Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24 hour bliss.
Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating that "bliss is dumb". 

My own experience of bliss-saturated states in activity is that anger,
ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly regular quality of
Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found "impossible" to arise. 
Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's  "24-hour bliss" enlightenment,
clearly they have little to do with Peter's and Tom's experience with
whatever they experience and label as "enlightenment" (experience used
in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of consciousness' not like 'I
experience the flower').

So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I ha

[FairfieldLife] Re: How can we understand uneven development in teachers?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> "Things are not as they seem,
>  nor are they otherwise"
>  --a Buddhist Sutra

Unless you are Elsewhere.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Not La Antilla. I love how Jim and I have opposite
> responses to this post! (Hehehehe)
> 
Peter, didn't you get the astral memo from Ramana Maharshi on "The 
Strict Conformance of Enlightenened Thoughts and Actions"? 

I'll forward it to you in my next meditation session. C'mon buddy, 
keep up the united front!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Guru Dev biography

2006-01-07 Thread Richard J. Williams

Premanand Paul Mason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>
> An on-line version of a Guru Dev biography has been made 
> freely available by Delhi Photo Company.
> 
> http://www.shrigurudevji.com/article.asp?article=quotations
>
Thanks for the link, Paul - I wonder when the respondents here will
get around to reading it?

Acharya Shri replied: "The Vedantic truth is self-evident and
self-complete. It is Light itself. It needs no other light to
illuminate it" (66).

'The Whole Thing The Real Thing'
By Rameswar Tilwari
New Delhi, Inia 1977

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
> 
> > One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do
> > was make a connection between spiritual growth and
> > practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher
> > connection than I ever imagined it would be.
> 
> That's because, IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of  
> transformation to uproot vasanas. Vasana-kshaya, the obliteration 
of  
> subliminal tendencies (desires), takes place at a different level 
of  
> practice.
> 
> I liked the example Alan Wallace gave in the video link posted 
here  
> the other day: the issue with samadhi is people would go into 
these  
> sublime states and be wowed by the bliss--but when they came out 
of  
> samadhi, they really hadn't changed! That's the problem with  
> marketing something as being able to be everything and do 
everything-- 
> people begin to actually believe if they do something over and 
over  
> improvement in vasanas will just happen. Sadly, increasing prices 
on  
> something just reinforces the idea: 'if it is so expensive, it 
must  
> be because it CAN do everything.'
> 
> If you're not doing practices to obliterate vasanas, then don't  
> expects that to just happen.
>
I tend to agree, with one distinction. Once the practice of TM has 
matured, it is like a room that we occupy, with doorways to other 
areas we may wish to affect easily seen, and accessible. So although 
the obliteration of subliminal tendencies is not specifically 
addressed by TM, with practice, it becomes evident how to address 
this. 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > > > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> > > "experience"
> > > > of CC.
> > > 
> > > Because your experience is different, or just
> > > because of the writing style?
> > 
> > A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
> > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC.
> 
> Such as?  (Curious, not challenging you.)
> 
> On the basis of the writing style and phrasing, I'd
> guess the person who composed the list based it
> on things MMY had said, or--more likely, perhaps--
> wrote it at MMY's direction.
> 
> Doesn't *necessarily* mean the writer hadn't had the
> experiences described, but I agree that it doesn't
> sound like a personal report (again, based just on
> the style).
> 
 
Or was trying to generalize, pick some of the more
> common types of experiences that would be relatively
> easy for folks to recognize?
> 
> The point was made repeatedly in the "20 Green Lights
> to CC" advanced lecture, as I recall, that experiences
> of individuals would vary; and that if you didn't have
> some of them, that didn't mean you weren't seeing
> progress in the direction of CC.
>
Yeah, agreed that this doesn't sound like one person's listing. For 
one thing, unless asked, why would a 'CC person' bother writing such 
a list?

In any case, I did like this a lot because it appears very accurate, 
and at the same time general enough as Judy comments to apply to a 
wide variety of experience. By the way, my faves were items 1-3 and 
7.





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[FairfieldLife] Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Tom T:
> > > > An old politician who had been a chicken farmer for the first 50
> > > > years of his life put it to me this way. Son you have got to
learn
> > > > you are never going to win when you get in a p*ssing contest
with a
> > > > skunk. That advice has been ignored from time to time by me
and it
> > > > has always ended up with me getting p*ssed on. If I remember to
> > > > avoid the skunkns in the first place, life is a lot smoother and
> > > > sweeter. i have noticed there some here on FFlife who definitaly
> > > > fall into that category. Oh well we eventually get it. Tom T
> > >
> > > You know, Tom, when the only way you can deal
> > > with someone who disagrees with you is by
> > > dehumanizing them and reducing them in your
> > > mind to the status of an animal, you should
> > > probably take a step back and ask yourself why
> > > it is that you find other human beings so very
> > > threatening.
> >
> > It is fascinating that someone, particularly an enlightened being, can
> > negatively characterize others as skunks -- parphrasing -- "skunks
> > p*ss all over others" -- and fail to see that their characterization
> > parallels that of a skunk -- p*ssing all over others.
> >
> > And I thought someone in Brahman Consciousness saw all things as
> > Brahman. Whose nature is Ananda -- Bliss. Whatever. But is is a shame
> > when Brahman wakes up on the wrong side of the loka and is grumpy.
> > Sort of puts a gloomy cast of all of creation.
> >
> > And while some will see some humor and irony in the above, Peter will
> > undoubtedly see rage and anger. Seeing himself in all things?
> >
> > Enlightenment. What a trip!
> >
>
> Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or
> conditioned mind?

I think the term "enlightenment" is a label, that serves little
positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear
that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those
from different "traditions" and even those proclaiming to be living
the label. Just today's post illustrates such.

Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree
on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.

Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various
traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question
about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in
enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated
emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found --
and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment.

(Though ironically, thre is some "individuality" in the "peter-sphere"
that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets "bent out of shape"
and lashes out in anger.)

And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and
with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in
enlightenment, but it no longer "rules" like it does pre-enlightnment
-- it becomes subordinate to the Self.

Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there
is no ego in enlightenment is insane.

And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question
stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and
conditioned mind) in enlightnement.

Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he
simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then "realized"
that whcih he defined, and then started using the title "enlightenment
-- even though his definition was his own and neither a "traditional"
one nor the TMO one.

And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of
diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them.

Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc as "baby
realization" or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you refer to the archives,
you will find a post from Tom where he "ranted" on and on (IMO) in a
long post why calling cc as "baby" anything was paraphrasing, stupid,
insane and agenda laden.

Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24 hour bliss.
Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating that "bliss is dumb".

My own experience of bliss-saturated states in activity is that anger,
ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly regular quality of
Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found "impossible" to arise.
Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's "24-hour bliss" enlightenment,
clearly they have little to do with Peter's and Tom's experience with
whatever they experience and label as "enlightenment" (experience used
in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of consciousness' not like 'I
experience the flower').

So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the use of
the label "e

[FairfieldLife] Re: How can we understand uneven development in teachers?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
> 
> "Things are not as they seem,
>  nor are they otherwise"
>  --a Buddhist Sutra
>
I'm not a buddha-istic person, but wouldn't this be a koan, a phrase 
designed to still the mind by creating an unresolvable intellectual 
paradox, vs a sutra, which produces some special effect as a result 
of attention on it? Not splitting hairs as much as curious...a 
blissful little nugget, in any case...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is for  
> "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e., 
for  
> pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his 
experimental  
> conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of  
> Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, DC.
>

Yep, and the people who awarded theprize never read the subsequent 
published study since it hadn't been published at that time. I doubt if 
the study would change their mind, but its an interesting commentary on 
the scientific parody community that this was done.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

Part of this is completely false and misleading. Hagelin's 
groundbreaking work started BECAUSE he linked MMY's Vedic Cosmology 
to Western Science. After some discussions with MMY in Switzerland, 
Hagelin started sifting through existing theories, looking for one 
that best fit MMY's interpretation of the Vedas. Flipped SU(5) looked 
the most promising, and after slight modifications to make it better 
fit MMY's theories, Hagelin realized that the modifications actually 
made Flipped SU(5) a better theory from a Western perspective. He 
contacted his old friend George Ellis of CERN who contacted Dimitri 
Nanopoulos, the author of the original Flipped SU(5), and the three 
co-published about 50 papers on the subject, which made a scientific 
name for all 3. In other words, it is BECAUSE of Hagelin's linking of 
TM and western science that he became well known.

His loss of reputation came when he started to devote himself to 
politics full time. You can't be a politician running for office and 
publish scientific papers simultaneously. And his former 
collaborators never distanced themselves from Hagelin, only from his 
politics. In fact, Ellis of CERN published a paper on consciousness 
and Quantum Mechanics a few years ago himself.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> oops:
> 
> In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is 
for  
> "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e., 
for  
> pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his 
experimental  
> conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of  
> Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, 
DC.  
> Before Hagelin started with his dubious works on TM, he was given 
the  
> Kilby Award in 1992, for scientists who have made "major  
> contributions to society through their applied research in the 
fields  
> of science and technology". The award states it is for "a 
scientist  
> in the tradition of Einstein, Jeans, Bohr and Eddington".
> 
> Hagelin has published a number of peer-reviewed papers in particle  
> physics dealing with supersymmetry and grand unification theory. 
His  
> groundbreaking work with Dimitri Nanopoulos was particularly  
> influential. After that he tried to link particle physics to  
> Transcendental Meditation and failed to publish a single paper in 
an  
> established journal. His last accepted contribution to physics is  
> from 1994. His former co-authors nowadays distance themselves from 
him.
> 
> 
> 
> -from the Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:10 AM, Vaj wrote:
> 
> > In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is  
> > for "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced",  
> > i.e., for pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for 
his  
> > experimental conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi  
> > University of Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime 
in  
> > Washington, DC.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Premanand Paul Mason" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Guru Dev's lifestyle, organisation and methods of gaining 
> > welfare as depicted in his published biographies (listed 
> > below), are at variants with the descriptions recently 
> > offered by 'off_world_beings'.
> 
> While it is understandable given his alien heritage :-),
> it's becoming obvious to me that the "source" for the
> things that off_world_beings has been posting here 
> lately is the party line that has been presented to 
> him over the years by TM teachers. This party line 
> seems to consist of dogma that the teachers were 
> told to memorize and then repeat to TMers, combined 
> with a few stories that they made up or picked up 
> along the way to bolster their own TBism.
> 
> It's a closed loop. Off seeks to support the TM party
> line by simply repeating the TM party line (often using
> cut and paste to say the same thing in four or five 
> posts in a row), while declaring that it's the "truth" 
> and that any other way of seeing things is "false" 
> and/or "naive."
> 
> A less compassionate person than I might call it cult-
> think. I just call it not thinking at all.  :-)
>

It is obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as 
Shankaracharya than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It is 
also obvious that *somehow* money flowed into the math at Jyotirmath. 
Gurudev may have refused donations in exchange for instruction, but I 
doubt if he refused generic donations for the upkeep of the Math. 
Unless people are implying that he manifest money out of thin air? 
This would be counterfeiting, and illegal, so regardless of any 
ability to do so on Gurudev's part, I doubt if he did this, don't you?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

2006-01-07 Thread shempmcgurk

Vaj:

How do you incorporate hyperlinks in your text?  It really works 
great!


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> oops:
> 
> In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is 
for  
> "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e., 
for  
> pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his 
experimental  
> conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of  
> Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, 
DC.  
> Before Hagelin started with his dubious works on TM, he was given 
the  
> Kilby Award in 1992, for scientists who have made "major  
> contributions to society through their applied research in the 
fields  
> of science and technology". The award states it is for "a 
scientist  
> in the tradition of Einstein, Jeans, Bohr and Eddington".
> 
> Hagelin has published a number of peer-reviewed papers in 
particle  
> physics dealing with supersymmetry and grand unification theory. 
His  
> groundbreaking work with Dimitri Nanopoulos was particularly  
> influential. After that he tried to link particle physics to  
> Transcendental Meditation and failed to publish a single paper in 
an  
> established journal. His last accepted contribution to physics is  
> from 1994. His former co-authors nowadays distance themselves from 
him.
> 
> 
> 
> -from the Wikipedia.
> 
> 
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:10 AM, Vaj wrote:
> 
> > In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which 
is  
> > for "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced",  
> > i.e., for pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for 
his  
> > experimental conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi  
> > University of Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime 
in  
> > Washington, DC.
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow, you really are out of touch. Do you know how much a 
car 
> > > > > costs these days ? 
> > > > 
> > > > Well, in Europe the new Renault Logan, a well-reviewed
> > > > brand-new 5-passenger car, costs 5000 Euros out the door.
> > > > In other words, only twice the cost of TM.
> > > > 
> > > > And the car actually delivers what is promised.  :-)>>
> > > 
> > > Doesn't work well in New England weather and mountains. 
> > 
> > Well dude, since the car has NEVER been imported
> > to the United States (yet), this sounds to me like
> > one more of those "facts" that you either made up
> > or that you believe is true based on what someone
> > has told you.  :-)  :-)  :-)
> 
> Poor argumant skills. Scattered logic. 

Don't know about this specific car, but if it meets US emissions 
standards, it CAN be brought back to the States by a returning GI who 
bought one while stationed overseas. THe US military has a free 
shipping program for personnel because they have to keep their people 
trained to handle strangely shaped and boxed shipments of all sizes 
AND they need to keep their personnel happy by not forcing them to 
abandon household goods and cars whenever they change station. Of 
course, you must bring a car with you overseas in order to be 
eligible to bring one back for free, but the military doesn't care 
WHICH car you bring back so long as it is legal for it to operate in 
the USA.
 THe fact that a specific car hasn't been imported officially yet 
doesn't mean there can't be quite a few operating in this country 
already. Ever wonder how those British three-wheelers you see on the 
road got here? No individual paid more money in shipping than the car 
is worth in order to bring it back. Some GI brought it home for free 
and sold it. There's quite a market in antique and unusual cars via 
the military in case you didn't know. Also antique furniture and 
trinket stores  are often started up by retiring military who 
collected antiques from various European countries during their 
career with this in mind. To put this in perspective, a 4-year 
airman, single, could bring back 7,000 pounds of household goods and 
furniture for free from overseas (not counting any cars), when I was 
in the military. The higher your rank, the more you can ship around. 
Katrina (walking on sunshine) Leskanich's father retired a full 
colonel and started an antique shop with his own furniture when he 
retired. Used to go out with her sister so I got to watch this first 
hand.

>  
> > Have you ever considered thinking for yourself once
> > or twice before you die?  :-)>>>
> 
> You first.
> 
> OffWorld
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as 
> Shankaracharya than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It is 
> also obvious that *somehow* money flowed into the math at Jyotirmath. 
> Gurudev may have refused donations in exchange for instruction, 

There is the story of SBS meditating alone on a windy river plain, and
a merchant saw him and wrapped a fine shawl around him -- out of
kindness. SBS scolded him, and asked him to take it away, saying that
he (SBS) could not and did not accept gifts.

> but I 
> doubt if he refused generic donations for the upkeep of the Math. 
> Unless people are implying that he manifest money out of thin air? 

Well, that is sort of what some stories imply. That plenty of money
(or perhaps gold, etc) just showed up when it was needed. Its said
that SBS was blessed by a Goddess (Laksmhi ?) when he was only 8 or 10
or so, wandering India looking for a master. He had not eaten in some
time and was given a small cup of milk -- but he offered it (all or
half) to the goddess of the river he was traveling on. The Goddess was
so overwhelmed by the purity and devotion of the young sadhu, She
blessed him with never "being in want" ever again. I think this is
where that title that Paul mentioned the other day comes from
(vishibhutt? ...)

> This would be counterfeiting, and illegal, so regardless of any 
> ability to do so on Gurudev's part, I doubt if he did this, don't you?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid



On a Mac you just paste text as html.On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:40 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:Vaj:  How do you incorporate hyperlinks in your text?  It really works  great! 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid



On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:18 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is for   "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e.,  for   pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his  experimental   conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of   Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, DC.Yep, and the people who awarded theprize never read the subsequent  published study since it hadn't been published at that time. I doubt if  the study would change their mind, but its an interesting commentary on  the scientific parody community that this was done. It's also interesting that his close colleagues tried to distances themselves from him.I watched a chunk of the most recent press conference with him. It was pretty funny, but also sad what has become of him.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is 
> for  
> > "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e., 
> for  
> > pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his 
> experimental  
> > conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of  
> > Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, 
> DC.
> >
> 
> research which was later published in a peer-reviewed journal: 
> Social Indicators Research, 47, 153201, whilst the sceintists who 
> gave out the ignobel prize in 1994, have gone back to their 
teaching 
> jobs, and are struggling to get any recognition or published work. 
> 
> Wikepedia is the biggest crock of shit. Half of it written by  
> halfwits who have little expertise in the field they are spouting 
> about. Quoting from it will take you 6 months to a year to regain 
> your credibility. Just a friendly peice of advice.:-)

Wikipedia is currently being sued because someone published 
a "revelation" about the Kennedy assisination that named names and 
the wiki operators never caught on. The person who was named may win 
the lawsuit which could close Wikipedia down completely. Sad, 
actually, but it DOES point out the danger of quoting Wikipedia or 
other anonymous online sources rather than using it as a place to go 
to find REAL sources of info in the footnotes.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:47 AM, off_world_beings wrote:
> 
> > Wikepedia is the biggest crock of shit. Half of it written by
> > halfwits who have little expertise in the field they are spouting
> > about. Quoting from it will take you 6 months to a year to regain
> > your credibility. Just a friendly peice of advice.:-)
> 
> A recent study was published which showed that the Wikipedia was  
> about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica.
>

Heh. That study was incorrect, unless Britannica is getting sued for 
not catching a hoax published by them.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:47 AM, off_world_beings wrote:
> > 
> > > Wikepedia is the biggest crock of shit. Half of it written by
> > > halfwits who have little expertise in the field they are 
spouting
> > > about. Quoting from it will take you 6 months to a year to 
regain
> > > your credibility. Just a friendly peice of advice.:-)
> > 
> > A recent study was published which showed that the Wikipedia was  
> > about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica.
> >
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/88kt2
> 
> London - Online 'open source' encyclopaedia Wikipedia, is comparable
> in content and quality to the respected Encyclopaedia Britannica,
> reports the British journal Nature.
> 
> The journal compared 42 articles from the two reference works, 
masking
> the origin of each individual article from their testers. Unlike the
> Encyclopaedia Britannica, Wikipedia has no official editors. Anyone
> can create new articles and modify existing ones.
> 
> The experts detected four errors per Wikipedia article on average; 
for
> the Encyclopaedia Britannica, it was three. Some 162 errors in all
> were discovered in the articles from the Internet project, 123 by 
the
> Encyclopaedia Britannica.
>

The idea of a wiki is that it is self-correcting because someone will 
notice an error and challenge it.However, when an error is 
deliberately introduced, the wiki model can fall down miserably.

Also, much of Wikipedia (and Britannica) involves interpretation of 
facts, so whose opinion dictates which "fact" is correct? The person 
who wrote the original has the upper hand because the correction 
process is relatively involved and most people aren't going to bother 
merely because they disagree with an editorial stance.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:47 AM, off_world_beings wrote:
> > 
> > > Wikepedia is the biggest crock of shit. Half of it written by
> > > halfwits who have little expertise in the field they are 
spouting
> > > about. Quoting from it will take you 6 months to a year to 
regain
> > > your credibility. Just a friendly peice of advice.:-)
> > 
> > A recent study was published which showed that the Wikipedia was  
> > about as accurate as the Encyclopedia Britannica.>>
> 
> Not when it comes to TM.
>

If you disagree with something in Wikipedia, you can start theprocess 
to have the article changed. I would make very sure of your facts 
before you start the process, however.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Vaj:
> 
> How do you incorporate hyperlinks in your text?  It really works 
> great!

On a PC, click in the Address box of the browser window when you're on 
the page you want to link to, to select the URL, then Ctrl-C to copy it 
to the clipboard.  Switch to the message window you want the URL to 
appear in, and CTRL-V to paste it in.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Patrick Gillam

Judy writes:

> I've always figured that what is called "self-
> actualization" *is* what MMY calls CC.

"Self-actualization" certainly *sounds* like the self being aware of itself, 
which is one 
characteristic of CC. But from what I've read of self-actualized behavior, it 
simply 
describes people who "have it together."

Here's how I view it: a self-actualized person may not be in cosmic 
consciousness, but a 
person in CC, as Maharishi describes it, would exibit the qualities of a 
self-actualized 
person.

It might be easier to diagram.

Maharishi teaches that CC leads to a whole raft of desirable behaviors and 
mental states, 
so we could imagine a large circle defining CC to encompass a smaller circle 
defining the 
qualities of self-actualization.

In actuality, however, it's more like Venn diagrams, with the CC circle 
overlapping but not 
encompassing the self-actualization circle.

Or the circles may not intersect at all. It's kinda like when someone does TM 
but notices 
no benefits in activity. The transcending may spill over into daily life, but 
it may not. The 
transcending may exist on its own, with its own integrity, just as the Absolute 
exists 
independent of relative creation.

> Most of the points on the list, however, have to do
> with subjective experience rather than behavior, no?

Hmm. Yeah. I'm conflating the two. I'm not distinguishing between the way I 
experience 
the world from the way I act in the world. Perhaps that sloppiness comes from 
there being 
no practical distinction between the two. My actions reflect my vision.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which 
is 
> > > for  
> > > > "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", 
i.e., 
> > > for  
> > > > pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his 
> > > experimental  
> > > > conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University 
of  
> > > > Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in 
Washington, 
> > > DC.
> > > 
> > > research which was later published in a peer-reviewed 
journal: 
> > > Social Indicators Research, 47, 153201, whilst the sceintists 
who 
> > > gave out the ignobel prize in 1994, have gone back to their 
> > > teaching jobs, and are struggling to get any recognition or 
> > > published work.
> > 
> > Don't dis the folks who award the Ig Nobels either.
> > They're exceptionally savvy and thoughtful people.
> 
> The following quote is from Prof. Paul Meyers from U of Minn. in
> response to a question about an intelligent design guy who got a 
paper
> published in a science journal:
> 
> "Well, first of all, sometimes real crap gets published in peer-
> reviewed journals, and sometimes really great stuff has to struggle 
to
> get the approval of other scientists. It's not an absolute sine qua
> non of good research -- it's more of a stochastic thing, where what
> counts more is what kind of work snowballs into a lot of research...
> The whole shoddy affair illustrates why Intelligent Design 
creationism
> isn't science. They are scrabbling to put up a facade, but science
> isn't about words in a journal or a collection of degrees: it is a
> process. It's science if it is being continually tested, if there is
> research being done to critically evaluate the components of the
> theory. There is no research being done on intelligent design, nor 
can
> there be--there aren't any testable hypotheses in their proposal."
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/6/95138/89017
> 
> It's good that tmo scientists try to get published, but the spirit 
of
> the whole effort seems to fall more under PR than science - and 
until
> at least one independent scientist is impressed enough by the
> maharishi effect research to begin the long process of replication,
> then it's still an proven theory.
>

The ME, yes. However, indendent scientists have been testing TM 
claims for a long time. Some are persuaded that TM works best on 
things like hypertension, and some are not.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >

> > That's because, IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of  
> > transformation to uproot vasanas. Vasana-kshaya, the obliteration 
> of  
> > subliminal tendencies (desires), takes place at a different level 
> of  
> > practice.
> > 
> > I liked the example Alan Wallace gave in the video link posted 
> here  
> > the other day: the issue with samadhi is people would go into 
> these  
> > sublime states and be wowed by the bliss--but when they came out 
> of  
> > samadhi, they really hadn't changed! That's the problem with  
> > marketing something as being able to be everything and do 
> everything-- 
> > people begin to actually believe if they do something over and 
> over  
> > improvement in vasanas will just happen. Sadly, increasing prices 
> on  
> > something just reinforces the idea: 'if it is so expensive, it 
> must  
> > be because it CAN do everything.'
> > 
> > If you're not doing practices to obliterate vasanas, then don't  
> > expects that to just happen.
> >
> I tend to agree, with one distinction. Once the practice of TM has 
> matured, it is like a room that we occupy, with doorways to other 
> areas we may wish to affect easily seen, and accessible. So although 
> the obliteration of subliminal tendencies is not specifically 
> addressed by TM, with practice, it becomes evident how to address 
> this.
>

Vaj, can you be more specific on what type of methods thjese are, or
description of such.

I have had specific "knowledge unfolding" in side of me, perhaps
similar to what Jim is referring to, where "methods" become clear to
me (not necessarily applicable for everyone) which I use with good
benefit. One was specifically for vasanas, having to do with the
"light and heat of attention" and deep 'hyper-breath" -- similar the
type that can spontaneously arise in yogic flying. 

Others are mahavakaya like insights / understandings that come -- and
when digested, lead to wonderful things.

This inner-revelation effect seems consistant with what a Maharishi 
pundit told me in a jyotish reading. Ironic as it sounds, I asked the
pundit about how and when I could / would find a "teacher"  / guru for
personal guidance. He said that for my chart, that was not necessary,
that my intuition would give me all the knowledge needed -- but to
just read the scriptures occaisionally to find support for what you
find to be true inside of yourself.

While I take everything jyotish pundits say with a grain of salt, his
statement, and my own experience, do point to a "traditional" path for
some, of knowledge unfoldng within -- without the benefit of a
physical teacher or linnege.  Do your tradition(s) recognze such, or
is such seen simply as delusion? 

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- Vaj wrote:
>
> IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of  
> transformation to uproot vasanas. 

Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to investigations 
into ways to 
uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO for making 
those 
investigations.

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[FairfieldLife] $925 now = $75 then (was Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
[...]
> 
> There are a number of "relevant" inflation indexes. Many economiss
> don't favor the CPI. Other indexes may give different answers.
> 
> ===


Inflation indexes are stupid. They don't reflect any reality for people 
who live paycheck to paycheck. If you want a cost-of-living index, you 
would examine the prices of those items that are REQUIRED for living 
and do an index on only those. No-one does this that I have heard.

Is there a "poverty-level inflaction index?" Never heard of one.



> 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Digest Number 4232

2006-01-07 Thread steven klayman

 From: Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> TM was a great starter  technique, good for blood
> pressure, stress, etc. It starter millions on the
path
> of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said in
1974
> when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was the
> predecessor to the Maitreya.

So do you think Bhagavan (the diksha guy) is the
Maitreya?

sorry rick. On this discussion group i would not touch
that one with a 10 foot pole.
Plus-honestly i do not know. I do know that this
deeksha thing is spreading like wild fire. 
Some of the people in radiance are a little upset wit
h me because my front lawn fills up wit h cars when i
have deeksha at my house and you will rarely see more
than 1 car or two at the dome here for program. 
However most are not very fundamental and some are
coming for deeksha and even going to india in march to
learn to transfer the divine energy themselves.
So.theanswer is let history
decide.
I am starting t o give private deeksha to people who
are afraid of being seen in a group and known as a TM
person. i understand this is happening in FF.  Are you
listening OffWorld?
I still do my 2 times a day meditation which i told
shree maa was my favorite sadhana. It has just gotten
deeper and more blissful.

namaste
steve

__ 
Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. 
Just $16.99/mo. or less. 
dsl.yahoo.com 

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[FairfieldLife] $925 now = $75 then (was Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> [...]
> > 
> > There are a number of "relevant" inflation indexes. Many economiss
> > don't favor the CPI. Other indexes may give different answers.
> > 
> > ===
> 
> 
> Inflation indexes are stupid. 

Not stupid, but not relevant for all things.

> They don't reflect any reality for people 
> who live paycheck to paycheck. If you want a cost-of-living index, you 
> would examine the prices of those items that are REQUIRED for living 
> and do an index on only those. 

yes. Exactly. And yo can do that - to a degree, suing the link I
posted the follow-up posts. I constructed a mind/body services index,
at a first stab at someting relevant to measure TM prices over time.

No-one does this that I have heard.
> 
> Is there a "poverty-level inflaction index?" Never heard of one.

There are all sorts of indexes out there.

Not

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- markmeredith2002 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> > 
> > It's good that tmo scientists try to get published,
> > but the spirit of
> > the whole effort seems to fall more under PR than
> > science - and until
> > at least one independent scientist is impressed
> > enough by the
> > maharishi effect research to begin the long process
> > of replication,
> > then it's still an proven theory.
> 
> More a very unusual hypothesis with some slight
> empirical support. Not enough to build a theory on
> becaue there is so much empirical evidence which
> completely contradicts the M.A. "theory" as it is now
> constructed.
> 
> 

Which emperical evidence contradicts the ME theory?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > TM was a great starter  technique, good for blood
> > pressure, stress, etc. It starter millions on the path
> > of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said in 1974
> > when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was the
> > predecessor to the Maitreya.
> 
> So do you think Bhagavan (the diksha guy) is the Maitreya?
>

Wouldn't that be King Tony, if anyone?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience"
> of CC.

Hmmm. I take it your experience of CC contradicts the following?



> 
> --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > Handed out on one of the TTCs. I think La Antilla
> > 
> > 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.
> >  
> > 1) Spontaneity - Loss of self-analysis. Why do we
> > not behave spontaneously
> > prior to C.C.? Because of lack of understanding of
> > the laws of action and
> > reaction, cause and effect - we analyze and control
> > behaviour in an attempt
> > to bring about effects which we want. C.C. creates a
> > situation v/'here
> > intellectual understanding of right and wrong, cause
> > and effect, is
> > unnecessary because of living the spontaneous
> > benefit of that knowledge at
> > all times. Transition from lack of spontaneity to
> > spontaneity is often
> > awkward, because we can't get used to the fact that
> > life is easy. We
> > sometimes mistake spontaneity for lack of
> > responsibility, because we find
> > that we don't worry so much, but the end result of
> > the spontaneity of action
> > in C.C. is greater success, responsibility, etc.
> > than before.
> >  
> > 2) Change in relationship to time - "Living in the
> > eternal present." We
> > often find that in ignorance we live a curious blend
> > of past and future -
> > past experiences, memories, etc. and future hopes,
> > which does not allow for
> > maximum enjoyment of each present moment. In C.C.
> > past impressions which are
> > useful to present experience come when necessary -
> > no need to dwell on them,
> > try to remember, etc. Future is assuredly going to
> > better with more
> > expansion of consciousness, so no need to spend a
> > lot of energy worrying and
> > thinking about the future. "Time is a conception to
> > measure eternity."
> >  
> > 3) Less extraneous thoughts - Mind is always
> > collecting things which * it
> > holds in case they may prove useful some day, thus
> > prior to C.C. the mind is
> > filled with thoughts which do not add to efficiency,
> > thoughts which just add
> > clutter to the mind. Less thoughts do not mean
> > dullness of mind, but each
> > thought has more power because thoughts are more
> > relevant to the needs of
> > the moment - thought energy is more concentrated.
> >  
> > 4) Greater energy and greater calm - We don't just
> > release stress, we
> > simultaneously strengthen the nervous system and
> > enliven finer aspects of
> > the nervous system, i.e. tap finer levels of energy.
> > So the calmness of C.C.
> > is not passivity - example of racing a machine as
> > opposed to refining the
> > functioning.
> >  
> > 5) Awakeness, sharp perception - Change of
> > definition of alertness, not just
> > disappearance of dullness. Perception not only
> > becomes broader, but also
> > gains greater ability to focus on a point more
> > intensely, i.e. greater
> > ability to concentrate, but not based on effort to
> > concentrate.
> >  
> > 6) Joy - C.C. is more fun. Joy based on
> > bliss-consciousness does not replace
> > relative joys - it enriches them; we no longer
> > depend on relative joys for
> > fulfillment, so enjoyment is not limited by our
> > experience. Transition to
> > more blissful inner state can seem unrealistic at
> > first, because we are so
> > used to attributing our happiness to outer events.
> > We expect to suffer in
> > certain situations because we always have before,
> > and when we cease to
> > suffer in the same circumstances, we may feel that
> > we're not taking life
> > seriously, becoming too frivolous, etc. Definition
> > of happiness changes.
> >  
> > 7) Sense of humour - Natural result of joy in life.
> >  
> > 8) Efficiency - All of the above points add to
> > efficiency in action. More
> > powerful, more orderly thoughts produce smoother
> > action. Spontaneity does
> > not waste as much time in unnecessary analysis.
> > Greater energy and
> > relaxation produces smoother, more effortless action
> > - do less and
> > accomplish more. Clearer, more awake perception
> > obviously allows us to see
> > how to "clean up" the process of activity. Joy in
> > activity keeps the mind
> > naturally engaged in performing the action.
> >  
> > 9) Witnessing, detachment - Most easily
> > misunderstood aspect of C.C. because
> > of our definition of the word detachment in the
> > waking state. We tend to
> > imagine detachment as "feelings detached from
> > action," intellect detached
> > from action," etc. whereas it is absolute pure
> > consciousness which is
> > separate from relativity (feelings, intellect, etc.
> > are included in
> > relativity). Transition to this state of Self
> > separate from activity is
> > another situation where intellectual understanding
> > is important, since
> > confusion could arise if we had the experience only.
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
> --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> > "experience"
> > > of CC.
> > 
> > Because your experience is different, or just
> > because
> > of the writing style?
> 
> A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
> concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> largely different than the author of this post and the
> author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. But
> then again, perhaps the distinctions have to do with
> two different minds in the context of CC. I'd love to
> talk directly with the author and ask him/her about
> their experiences and why they make some of these
> points. Obviously they are making distinctions that
> are relevant to their experiencing, not mine. 
> 
> 

So how do YOU know you're in CC?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Presumably they're from Mahesh himself, no?
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Peter wrote:
> 
> > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience"
> > of CC.
>

What is YOUR response to this list, Vaj?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

2006-01-07 Thread markmeredith2002

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > TM was a great starter  technique, good for blood
> > > pressure, stress, etc. It starter millions on the
> > path
> > > of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said in
> > 1974
> > > when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was the
> > > predecessor to the Maitreya.
> > 
> > So do you think Bhagavan (the diksha guy) is the
> > Maitreya?
> 
> Maitreya is some astral being's idea of a joke, yes?

Most definitely an astral being having some fun - plus why can't
humans get over the myth of some guy coming down from the sky to save
them?  Has never happened, never will.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- Peter wrote:
> >
> > my intellectual
> > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. 
> 
> Most of these 20 questions strike me as a description 
> of self-actualization that could exist with or without 
> cosmic consciousness.

Not surprising since CC is often presented as "self-actualization"...

Or should I say "Self-actualization?"

> 
> This list epitomizes a central conundrum to this forum, 
> which is, What's the connection between awakening and 
> behavior? Maharishi says the connection is strong.  This
>  forum suggests the connection is tenuous.
> 

Where does he say the connection is strong?

> Examples of the "strong connection" school are shown 
> by the questions on the second night of checking form, 
> such as "Have you noticed any indication of increasing 
> clarity of mind?" and "Have you noticed any improvement 
> in your relationship with others?" It's extremely common 
> for most people to respond "Yes" to both questions. 

But the first isn't an external behavior and the second, while 
possibly an external behavior, is still subjective: does the other 
person notice that behavior?

Finally, growth TOWARDS CC may not be the same as CC itself.

> 
> Examples of the "tenuous connection" school include 
> the stories of supposedly enlightened gurus who manipulate 
> their students for sex and money.
> 
> One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do 
> was make a connection between spiritual growth and 
> practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher 
> connection than I ever imagined it would be.
> 

Depends on the circumstances. In prison inmates, getting rid of 
stress often leads to immediate improvements in behavior. In non-
prison inmates (i.e. normal society members) stress may not lead to 
such obviously bad behavior. This may be one simple distinction 
between the "criminal mind" and the "on-criminal mind" for many 
people: they get stressed; they act in an unlawful way; they get 
caught and imprisoned.

Non-criminal people may break the cycle at any time: they don't get 
stressed; they don't act unlawfully; they don't get caught.

TM may well work quite well for the first two case but for the 
professional criminal (the one who seldom if ever gets caught and/or 
who may act unlawfully even if not stressed in the usual sense), TM 
may not work, or it may work so slowly as to not make any practical 
difference to the warden or police or Society At Large.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
> 
> > One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do
> > was make a connection between spiritual growth and
> > practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher
> > connection than I ever imagined it would be.
> 
> That's because, IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of  
> transformation to uproot vasanas. Vasana-kshaya, the obliteration 
of  
> subliminal tendencies (desires), takes place at a different level 
of  
> practice.
> 
> I liked the example Alan Wallace gave in the video link posted 
here  
> the other day: the issue with samadhi is people would go into 
these  
> sublime states and be wowed by the bliss--but when they came out 
of  
> samadhi, they really hadn't changed! That's the problem with  
> marketing something as being able to be everything and do 
everything-- 
> people begin to actually believe if they do something over and 
over  
> improvement in vasanas will just happen. Sadly, increasing prices 
on  
> something just reinforces the idea: 'if it is so expensive, it 
must  
> be because it CAN do everything.'
> 
> If you're not doing practices to obliterate vasanas, then don't  
> expects that to just happen.
>

Samadhi probably transforms all aspects of a person. That doesn't 
mean that other techniques can't transform some specific aspect 
faster than samadhi however.  BTW, how does one tell when one is in 
samadhi? There are objective criteria established by TM researchers, 
but many people try to hold onto these objective criteria or to some 
sensation associated with samadhi and call it samadhi. How does Allan 
Wallace make a distinction there? The TM researchers changed their 
methodology inorder to try to get around this issue. Does Allan 
Wallace even acknowledge that a potential problem exists in trying to 
evaluate samadhi? Do you?

How do you know that you are EVER in samadhi, Vaj?

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- Peter wrote:
> > >
> > > my intellectual
> > > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. 
> > 
> > Most of these 20 questions strike me as a description 
> > of self-actualization that could exist with or without 
> > cosmic consciousness.
> 
> I've always figured that what is called "self-
> actualization" *is* what MMY calls CC, but that
> the term was coined by someone who had no background
> in Eastern-type teaching about enlightenment, and
> was observing people who may not have been
> familiar with it either--who weren't practicing
> techniques for enlightenment but were developing
> in that direction naturally.  So the term "self-
> actualization" wasn't used with reference to
> states of consciousness per se.

But its a very good term: note the Self. Most people fail to 
capitalize it, but did the original person who coined the term fail 
to make a distinction, or are we merely going with capitalization 
conventions that weren't used at that time?

> 
> > This list epitomizes a central conundrum to this forum, 
> > which is, What's the connection between awakening and 
> > behavior? Maharishi says the connection is strong.  This
> >  forum suggests the connection is tenuous.
> 
> Most of the points on the list, however, have to do
> with subjective experience rather than behavior, no?

Noticed that, did you?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: How can we understand uneven development in teachers?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -
> > 
> > "Things are not as they seem,
> >  nor are they otherwise"
> >  --a Buddhist Sutra
> 
> Unless you are Elsewhere.
>

Where's that?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:16 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Presumably they're from Mahesh himself, no?  On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Peter wrote:  This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience" of CC.What is YOUR response to this list, Vaj? I liked it, however I thought the wording and phrasing was poor overall--like someone hearing something second or third hand and then writing down their limited understanding from their POV. The most worrisome trend to me is that all of these experiences being described have traditional names--and they are never used. This has always been a big problem in the TMO. It divorces you from the source and puts the power of divvying them out to someone else.If one wanted clearer, more experiential examples, they do exist in traditional texts and their commentaries.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > On Jan 7, 2006, at 10:42 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
> > 
> > > One of the exciting things that Maharishi attempted to do
> > > was make a connection between spiritual growth and
> > > practical daily behavior. It turned out to be a tougher
> > > connection than I ever imagined it would be.
> > 
> > That's because, IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level 
of  
> > transformation to uproot vasanas. Vasana-kshaya, the obliteration 
> of  
> > subliminal tendencies (desires), takes place at a different level 
> of  
> > practice.
> > 
> > I liked the example Alan Wallace gave in the video link posted 
> here  
> > the other day: the issue with samadhi is people would go into 
> these  
> > sublime states and be wowed by the bliss--but when they came out 
> of  
> > samadhi, they really hadn't changed! That's the problem with  
> > marketing something as being able to be everything and do 
> everything-- 
> > people begin to actually believe if they do something over and 
> over  
> > improvement in vasanas will just happen. Sadly, increasing prices 
> on  
> > something just reinforces the idea: 'if it is so expensive, it 
> must  
> > be because it CAN do everything.'
> > 
> > If you're not doing practices to obliterate vasanas, then don't  
> > expects that to just happen.
> >
> I tend to agree, with one distinction. Once the practice of TM has 
> matured, it is like a room that we occupy, with doorways to other 
> areas we may wish to affect easily seen, and accessible. So 
although 
> the obliteration of subliminal tendencies is not specifically 
> addressed by TM, with practice, it becomes evident how to address 
> this.
>

Heh. Or perhaps people get distracted because they are AFRAID of 
further growth, and go off on less efficient tangents, all the while 
beating their chests about how much better they are now they have 
stopped the too-slow practice of TM...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > > > > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> > > > "experience"
> > > > > of CC.
> > > > 
> > > > Because your experience is different, or just
> > > > because of the writing style?
> > > 
> > > A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
> > > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC.
> > 
> > Such as?  (Curious, not challenging you.)
> > 
> > On the basis of the writing style and phrasing, I'd
> > guess the person who composed the list based it
> > on things MMY had said, or--more likely, perhaps--
> > wrote it at MMY's direction.
> > 
> > Doesn't *necessarily* mean the writer hadn't had the
> > experiences described, but I agree that it doesn't
> > sound like a personal report (again, based just on
> > the style).
> > 
>  
> Or was trying to generalize, pick some of the more
> > common types of experiences that would be relatively
> > easy for folks to recognize?
> > 
> > The point was made repeatedly in the "20 Green Lights
> > to CC" advanced lecture, as I recall, that experiences
> > of individuals would vary; and that if you didn't have
> > some of them, that didn't mean you weren't seeing
> > progress in the direction of CC.
> >
> Yeah, agreed that this doesn't sound like one person's listing. For 
> one thing, unless asked, why would a 'CC person' bother writing 
such 
> a list?

Why did MMY start teaching TM? Why did gurudev become a guru?

> 
> In any case, I did like this a lot because it appears very 
accurate, 
> and at the same time general enough as Judy comments to apply to a 
> wide variety of experience. By the way, my faves were items 1-3 and 
> 7.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
[...]
> The local band of self-proclaimed enlightened on FFL appear to take
> themselves so seriously, and don't seem to have much if any ability to
> laugh at themselves -- and ironies that inevitably arise.
>

S! You'll awaken the sleeping elephants...

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:18 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is 
for
> >> "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", i.e.,
> > for
> >> pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for his
> > experimental
> >> conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the Maharishi University of
> >> Management caused an 18 percent decrease in crime in Washington, 
DC.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yep, and the people who awarded theprize never read the subsequent
> > published study since it hadn't been published at that time. I  
> > doubt if
> > the study would change their mind, but its an interesting  
> > commentary on
> > the scientific parody community that this was done.
> 
> It's also interesting that his close colleagues tried to distances  
> themselves from him.

that is NOT the case. Ellis still cites John Hagelin articles in 
discussions and has published a paper on QM and consciousness (well, 
the possible role of QM in the functioning of microtubules in brain).

> 
> I watched a chunk of the most recent press conference with him. It  
> was pretty funny, but also sad what has become of him.

How so? John's grown quite a bit overtheyears as a public speaker, in 
my opinion. What was sad about what you watched, as opposed to funny?
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- Vaj wrote:
> >
> > IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of  
> > transformation to uproot vasanas. 
> 
> Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to 
investigations into ways to 
> uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO for 
making those 
> investigations.
>

For some, perhaps TM automatically uproots the vasanas.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:16 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Presumably they're from Mahesh himself, no?
> >>
> >> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Peter wrote:
> >>
> >>> This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> >>> regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience"
> >>> of CC.
> >>
> >
> >
> > What is YOUR response to this list, Vaj?
> 
> I liked it, however I thought the wording and phrasing was poor  
> overall--like someone hearing something second or third hand and 
then  
> writing down their limited understanding from their POV. The most  
> worrisome trend to me is that all of these experiences being  
> described have traditional names--and they are never used. This 
has  
> always been a big problem in the TMO. It divorces you from the 
source  
> and puts the power of divvying them out to someone else.
> 
> If one wanted clearer, more experiential examples, they do exist 
in  
> traditional texts and their commentaries.
>

Fine, but don't expect the average person to seek out the traditional 
texts and their commentaris. BTW, how do you know that the texts, 
their commentaries  are correct, or that the translations are 
correct? Even if you read Sanskrit, different eras in the history of 
the Indian subcontinent used the same Sanskrit word in different ways.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Interesting Hagelin factoid

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > In 1994 Hagelin was the recipient of an Ig Nobel Prize, which is 
> > for "achievements" that "cannot, or should not, be reproduced", 
> > i.e., for pseudoscience. In his case the prize was awarded for 
> > his experimental conclusion that 4,000 meditators at the 
> > Maharishi University of Management caused an 18 percent decrease 
> > in crime in Washington, DC.

I posted a piece of this before, but I'm going to 
post it again, along with some additional commentary,
because Vaj's Wikipedia quote about the Ig Nobel
being awarded for "pseudoscience" keeps being
reproduced without the rebuttal, and people keep
taking it for established fact.  It seems that
neither the person who wrote the Wikipedia article
nor Vaj checked the Ig Nobel Web site to see what
the awards are *actually* for.  Either that, or
they were more interested in bashing Hagelin than
in accuracy.

>From the Ig Nobel Web site:

WHAT: Every Ig Nobel Prize winner has done something that first makes 
people LAUGH, then makes them THINK.

WHO: Here is a list of all the winners.

WHY: The Igs are intended to celebrate the unusual, honor the 
imaginative -- and spur people's interest in science, medicine, and 
technology.

http://www.improb.com/ig/what-are.html

>From another page on the site:

Each year, ten Ig Nobel Prizes are awarded. The selection criterion 
is simple. The prizes are for "achievements that cannot or should not 
be reproduced." Examine that phrase carefully. It covers a lot of 
ground. It says nothing as to whether a thing is good or bad, 
commendable or pernicious. 

For example: after something has been discovered or created, no one - 
anyone, anywhere, ever - can later become the first to have made that 
discovery or creation. The "firstness" cannot be repeated

I raise this matter of good or bad, because the world in general 
seems to enjoy classifying things as being either one or the other. 
The Ig Nobel Prizes aside, most prizes, in most places, for most 
purposes are clearly designed to sanctify the goodness or badness of 
the recipients. Olympic medals go to very good athletes. Worst-
dressed prizes go to badly dressed celebrities. Nobel Prizes go to 
scientists, writers, and others who excel. Occasional mistakes and 
omissions happen, sure, but these prizes, and most others, are meant 
to honor the extremes of humanity - those whose achievements should 
be seen as very good or very bad. 

The Ig Nobel Prize isn't like that. The Ig, as it is known, honors 
the great muddle in which most of us exist much of the time. Life is 
confusing. Good and bad get all mixed up. Yin can be hard to 
distinguish from yang. Ditto for data from artifact and, sometimes, 
up from down

An Ig Nobel can bring recognition and, perhaps, appreciation.
Say you have done something that you - and some other people - 
believe to be very, very good, and maybe even very, very important. 
But most people don't recognize its importance. Worse, most people 
don't even recognize its existence. It's different from what they 
expect, or what they have ever run across. What you have, you 
believe, is a breakthrough. The classic sequence of events for any 
breakthrough is:

(1) Most people don't recognize its existence; then
(2) When they do recognize it, their immediate reaction is to laugh 
or scoff at it; then
(3) Some of those people become curious about this thing that they 
are laughing at, and then think about it, and so come to appreciate 
its true worth.

So there you have a nice little benefit of the Ig Nobel Prizes. If 
you've done something people chuckle at, and you win an Ig, then more 
people will hear about it. And maybe some of those people will also 
become curious, and will think about what you've accomplished, and 
fall in love with it

Lawson wrote:

> Yep, and the people who awarded theprize never read the subsequent 
> published study since it hadn't been published at that time. I
> doubt if the study would change their mind, but its an interesting 
> commentary on the scientific parody community that this was done.

The Ig Nobel folks are *not* on the boat with
"debunkers" like James Randi, as people like Vaj
would like to have you believe.  There's plenty
more material on the Ig Nobel site that explains
their purpose, which is actually a lot more subtle,
and a lot more interesting, even than parody.

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[FairfieldLife] Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-07 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity. Comment below

Alex writes:
> Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or
> conditioned mind?
Akasha/Anon writes:
I think the term "enlightenment" is a label, that serves little
positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear
that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those
from different "traditions" and even those proclaiming to be living
the label. Just today's post illustrates such. 

Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree
on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday.  

Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various
traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question
about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in
enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated
emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found --
and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. 

(Though ironically, thre is some "individuality" in the "peter-sphere"
that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets "bent out of shape"
and lashes out in anger.) 

And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and
with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in
enlightenment, but it no longer "rules" like it does pre-enlightnment
-- it becomes subordinate to the Self. 

Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there
is no ego in enlightenment is insane.

And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question
stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and
conditioned mind) in enlightnement. 

Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he
simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then "realized" 
that whcih he defined, and then started using the title "enlightenment
-- even though his definition was his own and neither a "traditional"
one nor the TMO one.

And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of
diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. 

Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc as "baby
realization" or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you refer to the archives,
you will find a post from Tom where he "ranted" on and on (IMO) in a
long post why calling cc as "baby" anything was paraphrasing, stupid,
insane and agenda laden. 

Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24 hour bliss.
Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating that "bliss is dumb". 

My own experience of bliss-saturated states in activity is that anger,
ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly regular quality of
Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found "impossible" to arise. 
Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's  "24-hour bliss" enlightenment,
clearly they have little to do with Peter's and Tom's experience with
whatever they experience and label as "enlightenment" (experience used
in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of consciousness' not like 'I
experience the flower').

So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the  use of
the label "enlightenment". And also the phenomenon of
self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment.

My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part of my periodic
laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or inconsistencies sxpressed by
 so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom proclaims that it is
solely Brahman  who seees through Tom's eyes and types throuhg Tom's
fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO) appears as gloom,
anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh. Similar to my laughter
when Peter claims "absolutely no ego exists" yet feels deeply insulted
at times. And my laughter at the band of self-proclaimed enlightened
as they stumble over themselves in expressing contractiory attributes
of the assumed (by the casual reader) commonality of the label
"enlightenment" (when in fact they are each defining the state in
different ways.)

Tom T:
Have your ever heard of the Paradox of Brahman? Is it possible that
this conundrum is something the mind can not fathom. Or is it Jaimini?
H!
Enjoy! Tom T

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:16 PM, sparaig wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Presumably they're from Mahesh himself, no?
> >>
> >> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Peter wrote:
> >>
> >>> This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> >>> regarding CC rather than someone's actual "experience"
> >>> of CC.
> >
> > What is YOUR response to this list, Vaj?
> 
> I liked it, however I thought the wording and phrasing was poor  
> overall--like someone hearing something second or third hand and 
> then writing down their limited understanding from their POV.

Actually, as you noted previously, they most likely
came directly from MMY, although the person who wrote
them down may not have directly experienced them.

> The most worrisome trend to me

It isn't a "trend," it's always been the case.

 is that all of these experiences being  
> described have traditional names--and they are never used. This
> has always been a big problem in the TMO. It divorces you from the 
> source

Source of what??  A traditional name is not the "source"
of an experience.

> and puts the power of divvying them out to someone else.

"The power of divvying" *what* out to someone else?

What does "divvying" mean here?

> If one wanted clearer, more experiential examples, they do exist 
> in traditional texts and their commentaries.

"Clearer, more experiential examples" of what?

Could you try this again, Vaj?

Why would a list like this be any more useful using
Sanskrit terms, especially for Westerners who aren't
into the traditional literature?  Seems to me the
list describes such experiences in terms virtually
anyone could relate to.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
Btw, this is an excellent insight into the early evolution of the TM 
movement- really good!

> On Jan 5, 2006, at 7:55 AM, Vaj wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > There's a biography I read a while back on the web--I believe 
it  
> > was called "Call No Man Master", not certain--but it had a  
> > description of the early days of the TM movement in Britain and 
M's  
> > interaction with the public and how he taught from the 
perspective  
> > of a female assistant. She describes how M would come back 
after  
> > teaching or lecture in which he had to interact with students-- 
> > understand he was teaching all the students on his own at this  
> > point--and was exhausted. He complained about all the endless  
> > questions people would ask. It becomes clear where the impetus 
to  
> > create "meditation guides" came from. It was just too much for 
him  
> > to handle, he was drained and exhausted.
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20021022123115/www.isleofavalon.co.uk/ 
> GlastonburyArchive/callnomm/cnm-09.html
>







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread cardemaister




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> --- Vaj wrote:> >> > IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of > > transformation to uproot vasanas. hetudvayaM hi chittasya vaasanaa cha samiiraNaH .tayor vinashhTa ekasmins tad dvaav api vinashyataH .. 1.. --- Yoga-kuNDalyupaniSat  > Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to investigations into ways to > uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO for making those > investigations.>






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:59 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:Vaj, can you be more specific on what type of methods thjese are, or description of such.I generally would not discuss such methods. I have had specific "knowledge unfolding" in side of me, perhaps similar to what Jim is referring to, where "methods" become clear to me (not necessarily applicable for everyone) which I use with good benefit. One was specifically for vasanas, having to do with the "light and heat of attention" and deep 'hyper-breath" -- similar the type that can spontaneously arise in yogic flying. Others are mahavakaya like insights / understandings that come -- and when digested, lead to wonderful things. This inner-revelation effect seems consistant with what a Maharishi pundit told me in a jyotish reading. Ironic as it sounds, I asked the pundit about how and when I could / would find a "teacher" / guru for personal guidance. He said that for my chart, that was not necessary, that my intuition would give me all the knowledge needed -- but to just read the scriptures occaisionally to find support for what you find to be true inside of yourself.I've also found that tremendously helpful. While I take everything jyotish pundits say with a grain of salt, his statement, and my own experience, do point to a "traditional" path for some, of knowledge unfoldng within -- without the benefit of a physical teacher or linnege. Do your tradition(s) recognze such, or is such seen simply as delusion? No, super-knowledge or jnana--or in the non-dual sense "vidya" (synonymous with brahma-vidya) is crucial for higher development IMO. It may even get quite specific as in the form of jnana-dakinis / jnana-shaktis which act like a kind of UI for higher-consciousness. And it's what exhausts our stored karmic potentials turning karma into real Wisdom (jnana). But it might also just be the arising of our experience of the world, without grasping, which does this as well.I'm very suspicious of people who claim exalted stages (rather than just "states") but lack any jnana-shakti.

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[FairfieldLife] a miraculous, powerful, unfathomable reality

Cool article.


Nearly 100, LSD's Father Ponders His 'Problem Child'
By CRAIG SMITH

BURG, Switzerland

ALBERT Hofmann, the father of LSD, walked slowly across the small
corner office of his modernist home on a grassy Alpine hilltop here,
hoping to show a visitor the vista that sweeps before him on clear
days. But outside there was only a white blanket of fog hanging just
beyond the crest of the hill. He picked up a photograph of the view on
his desk instead, left there perhaps to convince visitors of what
really lies beyond the windowpane.

Mr. Hofmann will turn 100 on Wednesday, a milestone to be marked by a
symposium in nearby Basel on the chemical compound that he discovered
and that famously unlocked the Blakean doors of perception, altering
consciousnesses around the world. As the years accumulate behind him,
Mr. Hofmann's conversation turns ever more insistently around one
theme: man's oneness with nature and the dangers of an increasing
inattention to that fact.

"It's very, very dangerous to lose contact with living nature," he
said, listing to the right in a green armchair that looked out over
frost-dusted fields and snow-laced trees. A glass pitcher held a
bouquet of roses on the coffee table before him. "In the big cities,
there are people who have never seen living nature, all things are
products of humans," he said. "The bigger the town, the less they see
and understand nature." And, yes, he said, LSD, which he calls his
"problem child," could help reconnect people to the universe.

Rounding a century, Mr. Hofmann is physically reduced but mentally
clear. He is prone to digressions, ambling with pleasure through
memories of his boyhood, but his bright eyes flash with the
recollection of a mystical experience he had on a forest path more
than 90 years ago in the hills above Baden, Switzerland. The
experience left him longing for a similar glimpse of what he calls "a
miraculous, powerful, unfathomable reality."

"I was completely astonished by the beauty of nature," he said, laying
a slightly gnarled finger alongside his nose, his longish white hair
swept back from his temples and the crown of his head. He said any
natural scientist who was not a mystic was not a real natural
scientist. "Outside is pure energy and colorless substance," he said.
"All of the rest happens through the mechanism of our senses. Our eyes
see just a small fraction of the light in the world. It is a trick to
make a colored world, which does not exist outside of human beings."

He became particularly fascinated by the mechanisms through which
plants turn sunlight into the building blocks for our own bodies.
"Everything comes from the sun via the plant kingdom," he said.

MR. HOFMANN studied chemistry and took a job with the Swiss
pharmaceutical company Sandoz Laboratories, because it had started a
program to identify and synthesize the active compounds of medically
important plants. He soon began work on the poisonous ergot fungus
that grows in grains of rye. Midwives had used it for centuries to
precipitate childbirths, but chemists had never succeeded in isolating
the chemical that produced the pharmacological effect. Finally,
chemists in the United States identified the active component as
lysergic acid, and Mr. Hofmann began combining other molecules with
the unstable chemical in search of pharmacologically useful compounds.

His work on ergot produced several important drugs, including a
compound still in use to prevent hemorrhaging after childbirth. But it
was the 25th compound that he synthesized, lysergic acid diethylamide,
that was to have the greatest impact. When he first created it in
1938, the drug yielded no significant pharmacological results. But
when his work on ergot was completed, he decided to go back to LSD-25,
hoping that improved tests could detect the stimulating effect on the
body's circulatory system that he had expected from it. It was as he
was synthesizing the drug on a Friday afternoon in April 1943 that he
first experienced the altered state of consciousness for which it
became famous. "Immediately, I recognized it as the same experience I
had had as a child," he said. "I didn't know what caused it, but I
knew that it was important."

When he returned to his lab the next Monday, he tried to identify the
source of his experience, believing first that it had come from the
fumes of a chloroform-like solvent he had been using. Inhaling the
fumes produced no effect, though, and he realized he must have somehow
ingested a trace of LSD. "LSD spoke to me," Mr. Hofmann said with an
amused, animated smile. "He came to me and said, 'You must find me.'
He told me, 'Don't give me to the pharmacologist, he won't find
anything.' "

HE experimented with the drug, taking a dose so small that even the
most active toxin known at that time would have had little or no
effect. The result with LSD, however, was a powerful experience,
during which he rode his bicycle home, accompanied by an assistant.
That day, Ap

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:00 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:--- Vaj wrote:  IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of   transformation to uproot vasanas.   Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to investigations into ways to  uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO for making those  investigations. Good for them. Perhaps it was time to move on.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread cardemaister




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:>> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:> >> > --- Vaj wrote:> > >> > > IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of > > > transformation to uproot vasanas. > > > hetudvayaM hi chittasya vaasanaa cha samiiraNaH .> > tayor vinashhTa ekasmins tad dvaav api vinashyataH .. 1..> > --- Yoga-kuNDalyupaniSat> I mean, caturthaH praaNaayaamaH during TM kshaNika-samaadhi"destroys" samiiraNa ([movement of] praaNa), and, doing that, does the same to lots of vaasanaas!   (blaah blaah blaah...) 






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:00 PM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
> 
> > --- Vaj wrote:
> >>
> >> IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of
> >> transformation to uproot vasanas.
> >
> > Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to  
> > investigations into ways to
> > uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO 
for  
> > making those
> > investigations.

Patrick, can you provide some details here- what they did that was 
seen as so OTP?

> Good for them. Perhaps it was time to move on.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis

Anon writes: snipped
This inner-revelation effect seems consistant with what a Maharishi 
pundit told me in a jyotish reading. Ironic as it sounds, I asked the
pundit about how and when I could / would find a "teacher"  / guru for
personal guidance. He said that for my chart, that was not necessary,
that my intuition would give me all the knowledge needed -- but to
just read the scriptures occaisionally to find support for what you
find to be true inside of yourself.

TOm T:
It has been my experience and of a number of people that I know that
you will deal with your stuff before but most assuredly after. The
clarity makes it impossible to ignore any longer the stuff not dealt
with. Of course on the other hand one can maitain denial as long as
one sees some use for it. One also seems to stumble onto just the
right thing to expose all the little nitty gritty uneaten stuff that
is most ripe for resolution. As a matter of fact this very forum has
been a most powerful opportunity to look at much stuff and deal with
it. We have a technique that MahaRicky never knew he was creating. All
hail to MahaRicky.Amen.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
"tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" wrote:

"a_non_moose_ff" wrote:

> My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part of my periodic
> laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or inconsistencies sxpressed by
>  so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom proclaims that it is
> solely Brahman  who seees through Tom's eyes and types throuhg Tom's
> fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO) appears as gloom,
> anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh. Similar to my laughter
> when Peter claims "absolutely no ego exists" yet feels deeply insulted
> at times. And my laughter at the band of self-proclaimed enlightened
> as they stumble over themselves in expressing contractiory attributes
> of the assumed (by the casual reader) commonality of the label
> "enlightenment" (when in fact they are each defining the state in
> different ways.)
> 
> Tom T:
> Have your ever heard of the Paradox of Brahman? Is it possible that
> this conundrum is something the mind can not fathom. Or is it Jaimini?
> H!
> Enjoy! Tom T

Or there may be simpler explanations to explain huge incnosistencies
among the utterings of the the so-called enlightened. Ocham's Razor
and all. Maybe some / all are not "enlightened" per traditonal use of
the term.

To explain all ironies and paradox as the Paradox of Brahaman seems
naive and silly. Like "Bush invaded Iraq for WMD, yet there were no
WMD!" -- The Paradox of Brahman? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Sometimes a silly set of contradictions are just that.

Dressing up silly statements as high falutin advaidic talk at times
cam approach charlatism. Or at least good comedy.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:50 PM, sparaig wrote:Fine, but don't expect the average person to seek out the traditional  texts and their commentaris."average person" being the operative word.  BTW, how do you know that the texts,  their commentaries  are correct, or that the translations are  correct?You test them and you can confidence through application of methods which produce results.You never trust anything anyone tells you without trying it yourself. Even if you read Sanskrit, different eras in the history of  the Indian subcontinent used the same Sanskrit word in different ways. Very true. In general that might mean multiple entendre for a growing view. It also means it's helpful to have someone explain the context. Some texts are impossible to read without a guide. Some texts are even written deliberately out of sequence!





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Maitreya, was: Digest Number 4224

2006-01-07 Thread lupidus108

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "markmeredith2002" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
> > --- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > on 1/6/06 12:31 AM, steven klayman at
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > 
> > > > TM was a great starter  technique, good for blood
> > > > pressure, stress, etc. It starter millions on the
> > > path
> > > > of spirituality. MMY did a great job. He said in
> > > 1974
> > > > when asked  if he was the Maitreya that he was the
> > > > predecessor to the Maitreya.
> > > 
> > > So do you think Bhagavan (the diksha guy) is the
> > > Maitreya?
> > 
> > Maitreya is some astral being's idea of a joke, yes?
> 
> Most definitely an astral being having some fun - plus why can't
> humans get over the myth of some guy coming down from the sky to 
save
> them?  Has never happened, never will.

That definitly isn't Maitreyas purpose either. The Masters who claim 
to know Him clearly states that it is the growth of collective 
consciousness in the world, and hence the collective sense of 
responsebility among ordinary people around the world, that spurs 
Maitreyas return to the everyday world together with many other 
Masters. One the most higly evolved Master is Brahmananda Saraswati 
who is currently not in incarnation. For more information, please see:

http://www.shareintl.org/magazine/SI_current.htm

>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: How can we understand uneven development in teachers?

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > http://www.tinyurl.com/cmay6
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -
> > > 
> > > "Things are not as they seem,
> > >  nor are they otherwise"
> > >  --a Buddhist Sutra
> > 
> > Unless you are Elsewhere.
> >
> 
> Where's that?

Not where You are.

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[FairfieldLife] China Post-Sanskrit Yoga Sutra translated

2006-01-07 Thread Robert Gimbel

Sanskrit Yoga Sutra translated 2006/1/7Carmen Russell The China Post As people around the world are becoming more health-conscious, yoga centers have been gaining popularity as a way to keep fit and healthy. According to Jini , however, physical health is only half the story. "When most people think of yoga, they think of stretching," Chen says. "They think that is yoga, but it is really only a small part. People don't know the philosophy behind it." Rather, yoga, she explains, is an entire way of living, a lifestyle intended to bring one to a state of peace. Chen
might know a little about it. Never mind yoga has been a significant part of her life for the last 23 years, never mind she has spent years studying with masters of the art, and never mind she has frequented India for research. The essence of yoga, she says, is in the Yoga Sutra, which Chen has translated into Chinese for the first time in known history. The Yoga Sutra is actually a collection of sutras that were written 2,500 years ago in the ancient Indian language of Sanskrit. While the philosophy of Raja Yoga may have been around for more than 5,000 years, the 196 sutras as penned by Patanjali Maharishi is seen as its principle text. While Chen didn't master the Sanskrit language for the job, she translated the late Yogi Sri Swami Satchidana's interpretation, with whom she studied in the U.S. Satchidana, a guru of the art painstakingly interpreted the sutras from Sanksrit into English and added his own commentary to the new version. As the sutras themselves are
merely a few words each, the commentary, Chen says, is essential to understanding them. "The interpretations are very important." Chen came to yoga, or rather yoga came to Chen, in a conspicuous way. Noting that many people start practicing as a result wanting to overcome sickness, lose weight or "have a nice figure," Chen's introduction came from a chance meeting with a local teacher was looking for an interpreter for visiting masters. "I really think that meeting was arranged by God," she says. Initially she just worked the job and didn't join in, but eventually she had to try it. "The way of thinking just pulled me in." That sparked a lifelong search for Samadi, the yoga equivalent of nirvana. Chen started to devour everything she could about yoga and ventured to India, started writing on the subject and sought yogis to study under. Eventually, she came across Satchidana at the Light on Truth Universal Shrine in Virginia in the U.S. Early on, in
front of a group of others, Satchidana, referring to Chen, announced "Molike is going to translate the Yoga Sutra into Chinese." It was news to her. "As soon as he said it, I felt a great responsibility and I knew that I had to do it," Chen says now. At the time, she merely answered "I would be honored." Naturally, it wasn't easy. Chen who is fluent in English and even speaks some Hindi labored over the text for three years, despite the fact it wasn't exceptionally large. She reasoned that she had to do it right to do it justice and ensure it kept its meaning intact. "If there was something I didn't understand, I went to India," she says. She made five trips for the book, each time visiting a master to help fully understand different passages. "I didn't want to make any mistake in the meaning because then people would make mistakes in their thinking." Describing the book, she relates how it is a lifelong journey towards Samadi separated into four parts.
The first part, Samdhi Pada, introduces Samadi which Chen describes as "the most quiet state of your mind where you don't feel your body anymore." Next comes Saphana Pada, which details the "eight limbs" - the steps one takes to get to Samadi. Vibhuti Pada discusses the challenges following completion of the practice and Kaivaiya Pada discusses the final goal of yoga: liberation from worldly inclinations. In addition to translating the original sutras and Satchidana's interpretations, Chen included commentaries of her own. "I want people here to understand what yoga really is," she says. She makes circle with her hands to explain. "Inside the circle there is space, but it is limited. Outside the circle there just space, too, but it is infinite." Yoga helps you break out of the physical world into the infinite, she says. "The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali" launches this weekend. Chen herself will be available at a launch party Sunday at 1 p.m. at the Howard
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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > --- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This list seems to be comprised of someone's ideas
> > > > regarding CC rather than someone's actual
> > > "experience"
> > > > of CC.
> > > 
> > > Because your experience is different, or just
> > > because
> > > of the writing style?
> > 
> > A couple of reasonsBecause my intellectual
> > concerns/interests regarding CC (baby realization) are
> > largely different than the author of this post and the
> > author seems to make some, not all, conceptual
> > distinctions that don't seem very relevent to CC. But
> > then again, perhaps the distinctions have to do with
> > two different minds in the context of CC. I'd love to
> > talk directly with the author and ask him/her about
> > their experiences and why they make some of these
> > points. Obviously they are making distinctions that
> > are relevant to their experiencing, not mine. 
> > 
> > 
> 
> So how do YOU know you're in CC?

An interesting question. 

Peter's proclaimed SOLE criteria for cc is the realization of
"no-self, no ego". Yet other self-proclaimed enlighted on the list
proclaim enlightenement exists ALONG with the ego. While some may want
to bury their head in the sands of silliness and call this the
"paradox of Brahman", I view it for what it is: different people have
contradictory understandings of what enlightnemnt is, and different
experiences. Yet they all claim the same commonality of an arbitrary
label, "enlightenement". 

Make up your own mind if that is "the paradox of Brahman" or simply
that some or all don't know what they are talking about and are not
enlightenend.

Another good question is "if there is absolutely no trace of
individuality or no ego, as Peter proclaims, what is it that feels
insulted? It implies that it is the universal Atman, the essence of
sat-chit and BLISS that is insulted. Now THATS funny! 

Or the simpler explanation is that there is clearly a "space" of
individuality and ego within the Peter-sphere that gets insulted. But
the Peter=sphere, for whatever reasons, is blind to this space of
individuality. But by the Peter-sphere's own definition, this state,
with ego, cannot be enlightenment. Like the eye that cannot see itself.

Another questions is "what is the value (or NEED) in proclaiming cc
and/or enlightenment? What motivates people to do so. The Dali Lama,
Amma, MMY, and apparently many other teachers don't see the value in
proclaiming their students as enlightened. Which either means the
proclamation is not of value, and/or that most or all of thier
students are not enlightened. 

Of course the humor and silliness in all of the above pales to the
One(s) who proclaims to BE Brahman and to see Brahamn in all things -
- and then turns around calls people "pissing skunks" and that they
should "eat shit and die" (paraphrasing"). Now THAT is COSMICALLY FUNNY!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

2006-01-07 Thread Alex Stanley

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has
> > an ego or conditioned mind?
[snip] 
> And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your
> question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
> ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement.

I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to
having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another FFL
SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same
wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's
different, however, is with who/what I identify. 

I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 2005, I
wrote to Sandra Glickman: "On Saturday you asked me something along
the lines of, "Who is aware of being irritated?" The answer is that my
I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being
irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down."

That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this
sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT this
John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my
conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. If I ask
myself, "Who am I?", there is only silence and awareness; there is
nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the
awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an
affirmative "I AM THAT", so I spent a couple weeks in a state of doubt). 

The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence.
There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane.
And, while the conditioned state has not changed, it simply doesn't
matter. I laughed while reading Vaj's recent post about obliterating
vasanas, because I figure that as long as my vasanas are not
compelling me to eat human liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti,
who the fuck cares? Perhaps, at some point, I'll decide to do some
exploration and/or modification on the level of my subtle relative
existence, but not right now. After so many decades of Scotty down in
engineering diverting all available power to the grasper beam and
aversion engines, I am content to just be.

[snip] 
> And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of
> diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them.

It makes perfect sense to me that awareness aware of itself, as
expressed through myriad mind/body organisms, will show up in myriad
different ways. If the field of all possibilities could only express
itself as those possibilities that don't contradict each other, it
wouldn't be a field of ALL possibilities.

> So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the
> use of the label "enlightenment". And also the phenomenon of
> self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment.

The only difficulty I have with the label "enlightenment" is the
notion that it has to be rigidly defined. But, I have no issue with
someone proclaiming that he no longer identifies with story and illusion.

Alex

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has
> > > an ego or conditioned mind?
> [snip] 
> > And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your
> > question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
> > ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement.
> 
> I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to
> having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another 
FFL
> SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same
> wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's
> different, however, is with who/what I identify. 
> 
> I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 
2005, I
> wrote to Sandra Glickman: "On Saturday you asked me something along
> the lines of, "Who is aware of being irritated?" The answer is 
that my
> I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being
> irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down."
> 
> That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this
> sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT 
this
> John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my
> conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. If I 
ask
> myself, "Who am I?", there is only silence and awareness; there is
> nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the
> awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an
> affirmative "I AM THAT", so I spent a couple weeks in a state of 
doubt). 
> 
> The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence.
> There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane.
> And, while the conditioned state has not changed, it simply doesn't
> matter. I laughed while reading Vaj's recent post about 
obliterating
> vasanas, because I figure that as long as my vasanas are not
> compelling me to eat human liver with fava beans and a nice 
Chianti,
> who the fuck cares? Perhaps, at some point, I'll decide to do some
> exploration and/or modification on the level of my subtle relative
> existence, but not right now. After so many decades of Scotty down 
in
> engineering diverting all available power to the grasper beam and
> aversion engines, I am content to just be.
> 
> [snip] 
> > And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of
> > diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them.
> 
> It makes perfect sense to me that awareness aware of itself, as
> expressed through myriad mind/body organisms, will show up in 
myriad
> different ways. If the field of all possibilities could only 
express
> itself as those possibilities that don't contradict each other, it
> wouldn't be a field of ALL possibilities.
> 
> > So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the
> > use of the label "enlightenment". And also the phenomenon of
> > self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment.
> 
> The only difficulty I have with the label "enlightenment" is the
> notion that it has to be rigidly defined. But, I have no issue with
> someone proclaiming that he no longer identifies with story and 
illusion.
>  
> Alex
>
And a Very Happy New Year and Life to You, Alex! As you continue to 
enjoy the myriad discoveries of your now infinite freedom, inner and 
outer. Pretty cool, huh? Pretty normal, huh? Glad you fessed up and 
posted this





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.



On Jan 7, 2006, at 2:41 PM, cardemaister wrote:I mean, caturthaH praaNaayaamaH during TM kshaNika-samaadhi"destroys" samiiraNa ([movement of] praaNa), and, doing that, does the same to lots of vaasanaas! Unfortunately for this idea, the style of spontaneous pranayama that occurs in meditation is well known and even has it's own terms. One of the great things about Sanskrit, is it contains a huge vocabulary of higher states of consciousness which just simply do not exist in other languages. It's not that it's a bad thing, not at all, it's a good sign that one is ready to approach the fourth pranayama. One of the simple criteria for the fourth pranayama is that you can go into it *at will and decide it's length of duration.* By length of duration I mean, minutes, hours, days, etc.It should not be confused with sahaj-pranayama.





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[FairfieldLife] Ouch! Some ee-run-naH from Colombia!

2006-01-07 Thread cardemaister


http://www.shakiraisabel.com/nsc241.jpg





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

on 1/7/06 1:45 PM, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> TOm T:
> It has been my experience and of a number of people that I know that
> you will deal with your stuff before but most assuredly after. The
> clarity makes it impossible to ignore any longer the stuff not dealt
> with. Of course on the other hand one can maitain denial as long as
> one sees some use for it. One also seems to stumble onto just the
> right thing to expose all the little nitty gritty uneaten stuff that
> is most ripe for resolution. As a matter of fact this very forum has
> been a most powerful opportunity to look at much stuff and deal with
> it. We have a technique that MahaRicky never knew he was creating. All
> hail to MahaRicky.Amen.

Praise not necessary, just send $2500 each. Time payments accepted, with
interest.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Sal Sunshine

Hmmm, let's see--joy, sense of humor, efficiency?  I think most of the TMO has a ways to go before reaching those milestones.  Maybe the new and improved version will leave them out. :)

Sal


On Jan 6, 2006, at 9:28 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Alex Stanley"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has
> > > an ego or conditioned mind?
> [snip] 
> > And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your
> > question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an
> > ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement.

Nice post. Thanks. 

> 
> I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to
> having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another FFL
> SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same
> wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's
> different, however, is with who/what I identify. 

Though maybe its semantics, my experience is not I NOW identify with
THAT. Its just IT IS. And this other stuff just goes on its merry way
(day to day life). 

> I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 2005, I
> wrote to Sandra Glickman: "On Saturday you asked me something along
> the lines of, "Who is aware of being irritated?" The answer is that my
> I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being
> irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down."
> 
> That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this
> sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT this
> John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my
> conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. 

Yes. I think many of us have gone through such a process over the
years. Not being my body was clear from a yong age. 

Not being my thoughts and opinions came off and on over the years. The
ruthlessness of some of Byron Katie's work helped sear off some
dangling flesh of that. 

As in all of such de-couplings, non-attatchments, understanding is one
stage, having it manifest in ones life is another stage. For example,
its not too difficult to understand that one is not their ideas and
thoughts. That unanalyzed, thoughts have no more inherent "rightness"
than ony one's else.   They are NOT inherently true because I had
them. But its another thing to find less and less and then no sense of
ownership of ones ideas. No sense of loss if someone takes "my" idea
and runs with it and claims it as "theirs". No sense of having to
prove "one's" ideas to be correct, or better. No sense of insult if
someone criticizes ones ideas OR the thinker of the ideas. 

I think of it as not a loss but like giving books away to the Library.
Its still "there" but others can now take the book out of the library
and "own" it -- with no loss to "me". ) Thoughts are "public goods",
not Mine. 

Beyond loss of ownership and possessivness of thoughts, I found that
there is a deeper sense of do-ership that gets de-coupled. That is the
"decider". The intellect. Buddhi. For me, for years, the sense of
"doer" (of "I") was not in the body or mind (thinker of thoughts), but
in the decider. It was "I" that was making powerful and subtle
distinctions, comparisons, valuations, gainng insights, etc. That
intellectual process still contines, but the sense of "I", me as the
doer, me as the decider had gone. Analysis just happens. It is
buddhi's nature to analyze. And it just does it. No "Me" necessary or
involved. 

Similar with what I know as intuition, though others may use the
differently. I used to use the term "bindu points" -- little points of
energy that bloom instantly into knowledge about something. It just
happens. It just unfolds. Its not me.

As you say, "neti, neti." Whats left? IT IS. It just glows, for want
of a better analogy.  Its not I am THAT. its just IT IS. And along
with IT, buddhi and thoughts and runing around of daily life happen
just as outside events happen. They react among themselves accroding
to their inhernet nature. Senses see something. Automatically. Mind
reacts with a thought. Automatically. Buddhi analyzes and
distinguishes. Automatically. Legs move, mouth moves. Automatically.
IT just IS.

> If I ask
> myself, "Who am I?", there is only silence and awareness; there is
> nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the
> awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an
> affirmative "I AM THAT", so I spent a couple weeks in a state of
doubt). 

That is similar experience here. If anything, its a realization of I
am not That. That is, IT just IS. Separate from the social self or
genes -- the buddhi, thoughts walking, speaking. That social/genetic
self, more recently the buddi, used to be ME. For practical purposes
of social interaction it still is. All of that is NOT IT, which just IS.

> The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence.
> There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane.
> And, while the conditio

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Sal Sunshine

Yeah, okay.  But do we each get a gold crown?


Sal


On Jan 7, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Rick Archer wrote:

 Praise not necessary, just send $2500 each. Time payments accepted, with
 interest.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: How can we understand uneven development in teachers?

2006-01-07 Thread Sal Sunshine

On Jan 7, 2006, at 1:58 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:

"Things are not as they seem,
 > > >  nor are they otherwise"
 > > >  --a Buddhist Sutra
 > > 
 > > Unless you are Elsewhere.
 > >
 > 
 > Where's that?

 Not where You are.

Wherever you go, there you are.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.







In a message dated 1/7/06 11:30:26 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It is 
  obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as Shankaracharya 
  than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It is also obvious that 
  *somehow* money flowed into the math at Jyotirmath. Gurudev may have 
  refused donations in exchange for instruction, but I doubt if he refused 
  generic donations for the upkeep of the Math. Unless people are implying 
  that he manifest money out of thin air? This would be counterfeiting, and 
  illegal, so regardless of any ability to do so on Gurudev's part, I doubt 
  if he did this, don't you?

How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that 
big a deal.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>  
> In a message dated 1/7/06 11:30:26 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
> It is  obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as 
> Shankaracharya  than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It is 
> also obvious that  *somehow* money flowed into the math at Jyotirmath. 
> Gurudev may have  refused donations in exchange for instruction, but I 
> doubt if he refused  generic donations for the upkeep of the Math. 
> Unless people are implying  that he manifest money out of thin air? 
> This would be counterfeiting, and  illegal, so regardless of any 
> ability to do so on Gurudev's part, I doubt  if he did this, don't you?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not that  big a
deal.

Not Jyotir math, but I have been to two other Shankaracharian Maths
and they were pretty basic and simple. 

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[FairfieldLife] Triguna






Is Triguna still alive and practicing?If so, does anybody have 
his address in Delhi? I was there in 95 or 96 but can't remember the address . A 
friend is going to Delhi soon and would like to see him.  
Thanks.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day for 2 years.

In a message dated 1/7/06 3:57:15 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> It 
  is  obvious that Gurudev lived in greater physical comfort as > 
  Shankaracharya  than he did as a lone Sanyasin wandering around. It is 
  > also obvious that  *somehow* money flowed into the math at 
  Jyotirmath. > Gurudev may have  refused donations in exchange for 
  instruction, but I > doubt if he refused  generic donations for 
  the upkeep of the Math. > Unless people are implying  that he 
  manifest money out of thin air? > This would be counterfeiting, 
  and  illegal, so regardless of any > ability to do so on Gurudev's 
  part, I doubt  if he did this, don't you?> > > 
  > > How many of you have actually seen Jyotir Math? It's not 
  that  big adeal.Not Jyotir math, but I have been to two 
  other Shankaracharian Mathsand they were pretty basic and simple. 

So is the Jyotir Math that Guru Dev built. One large building 
made with rock and heavy timber and a tin roof. Enough rooms for a few monks to 
stay there and a large meeting hall. I think there might have been two stories 
with maybe about 3,000 to 4,000 total square feet. The Architecture reminded me 
a lit bit of a Tibetan Buddhist 
monistary. 

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[FairfieldLife] Green - TMO

2006-01-07 Thread Jason Spock




         I heard that Ford has developed a car that runs on Distilled water.??  Does anyone have information on it.?   Exc. Bevan Morris spoke some years back on a car that can run 5,000 kilometres without any need for re-fueling.  I forgot the type of car he mentioned.         I also heard that someone has developed a technology of turning waste chicken feathers into oil.?         I learnt TM for 150 rupees in india which
 amounts to over 3 dollars.  Do I have ethical right to tell another person to learn TM for 2,500-/ dollars.??     OriginalMessage-  FFrom: "Markmeredith2002" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:47:16 - Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM costs $3.30 a day - Now GReen TMO   ---  off_world_beings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]...> wrote:  > Isn't it awful that Maharishi has spent so long promoting healthy > living, electric vehicles, solar panel factory in India, organic > farming and greenhouses, and a balanced and nature-friendly > lifestyle...oh, and I almost forgot..working for the last 50 > years to create world peace, getting governments involved where he > can, and, having pundits doing continual yagyas and oblations at > spiritual sites around India, starting a highly sophisticated > Purusha center in the Himalayas, bringing back the Vedic tradition > in a systematized and sophisticated form in India.> Is there ANY other teacher that has done this for 50 years?...and is > not stopping in his late 80's  ! ! !> > OffWorld    Maybe the TMO talked about electric vehicles at some pt - they've talked about most everything - but
 the above list of activities is not particularly representative of what the tmo has actually done.      There is a small organic greenhouse operation here in ffld.  Maybe talk about bigger operations will come through but so far that's just talk.  There's also projects cutting down the rainforest in brazil and other forests elsewhere in the world.  In the past MMY has drilled for oil in texas, marketing high-end silk dresses, and now used cars in india as well (at least one nephew is).  Remember last year's big plans - enlightenment centers in malls.  Real estate remains the main business of the tmo, but most everything has been tried, and being a green eco-friendly business has never been a prerequisite.    Promoting his brand of spirituality has been MMY's most tireless and unending motivation which is impressive in its energy and committment. Lots of
 religious people today and throughout history have shown that kind of motivation though - and full time religious people conducting global businesses on the side while also getting involved in politics is nothing new - research pat robertson and rev. moon's operations which are much larger than MMY's.           
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.





on 1/7/06 3:41 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Yeah, okay.  But do we each get a gold crown? 

Plastic. But for a million, you get gold.


Sal 
 

On Jan 7, 2006, at 3:21 PM, Rick Archer wrote: 

 Praise not necessary, just send $2500 each. Time payments accepted, with 
 interest. 










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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make "I" appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in "oneself" as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in "losing it" -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be "human liver and fava bean" oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India...

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Triguna

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Triguna





on 1/7/06 3:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Is Triguna still alive and practicing?If so, does anybody have his address in Delhi? I was there in 95 or 96 but can't remember the address . A friend is going to Delhi soon and would like to see him.  Thanks.

Vaid Devendra Triguna, President Ayurvedic Congress 143, Sarai Kale Khan, East Nizamuddin, Opp. Railway Crossing, New Delhi

As far as I know, he’s still practicing.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--Interesting.  TM and its practice is like laying bare an open 
field, with trash strewn on the field needing collection and 
disposal.  Personally, I use various "karma busting" mantras designed 
for the disposal operations, namely the Mahavritunjaya mantra and a 
concise form of the Surangama Mantra.
  What's in YOUR wallet?
>
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Gillam" 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > --- Vaj wrote:
> > >
> > > IMO, TM as a method does not work on the level of 
> > > transformation to uproot vasanas. 
> 
> 
> hetudvayaM hi chittasya vaasanaa cha samiiraNaH .
> 
> tayor vinashhTa ekasmins tad dvaav api vinashyataH .. 1..
> 
>  --- Yoga-kuNDalyupaniSat
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> > Another recurrent theme of this list. For some of us, TM led to 
investigations into ways to 
> > uproot those vasanas. Others have been blacklisted from the TMO 
for making those 
> > investigations.
> >
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--More specific details of the techniques mentioned below may be 
found in a new book coming out in March, by Norbu Rinpoche, published 
by Snow Lion Press. Contact Snow Lion in a few months.


- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 12:59 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
> 
> > Vaj, can you be more specific on what type of methods thjese are, 
or
> > description of such.
> 
> I generally would not discuss such methods.
> 
> >
> > I have had specific "knowledge unfolding" in side of me, perhaps
> > similar to what Jim is referring to, where "methods" become clear 
to
> > me (not necessarily applicable for everyone) which I use with good
> > benefit. One was specifically for vasanas, having to do with the
> > "light and heat of attention" and deep 'hyper-breath" -- similar 
the
> > type that can spontaneously arise in yogic flying.
> >
> > Others are mahavakaya like insights / understandings that come -- 
and
> > when digested, lead to wonderful things.
> >
> > This inner-revelation effect seems consistant with what a 
Maharishi
> > pundit told me in a jyotish reading. Ironic as it sounds, I asked 
the
> > pundit about how and when I could / would find a "teacher"  / 
guru for
> > personal guidance. He said that for my chart, that was not 
necessary,
> > that my intuition would give me all the knowledge needed -- but to
> > just read the scriptures occaisionally to find support for what 
you
> > find to be true inside of yourself.
> 
> I've also found that tremendously helpful.
> 
> >
> > While I take everything jyotish pundits say with a grain of salt, 
his
> > statement, and my own experience, do point to a "traditional" 
path for
> > some, of knowledge unfoldng within -- without the benefit of a
> > physical teacher or linnege.  Do your tradition(s) recognze such, 
or
> > is such seen simply as delusion?
> 
> No, super-knowledge or jnana--or in the non-dual sense  
> "vidya" (synonymous with brahma-vidya) is crucial for higher  
> development IMO. It may even get quite specific as in the form of  
> jnana-dakinis / jnana-shaktis which act like a kind of UI for 
higher- 
> consciousness. And it's what exhausts our stored karmic potentials  
> turning karma into real Wisdom (jnana). But it might also just be 
the  
> arising of our experience of the world, without grasping, which 
does  
> this as well.
> 
> I'm very suspicious of people who claim exalted stages (rather 
than  
> just "states") but lack any jnana-shakti.
>






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean "something good is happening", then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional "enlightenment". Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different "states" of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different.IME the vast majority of people claiming "enlightenment", in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. "Self-recognition". Grokked the View.It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

2006-01-07 Thread Jason Spock




         Would Maharishi give us a title of 'Knight'.??  50,000-/ dollars might be enough for that.??     OriginalMessage-  From: "Rick Archer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:53:45 -0600 Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.     on 1/7/06 3:41 PM, Sal Sunshine at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Yeah, okay.  But do we each get a gold crown?   Plastic. But for a million, you get gold.        
	
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.





on 1/7/06 5:12 PM, Jason Spock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

    Would Maharishi give us a title of 'Knight'.??  50,000-/ dollars might be enough for that.??
  
I don’t know if he would, but you’re giving me ideas.






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[FairfieldLife] Inconsistencies in the existence of a Personal God

--Mark "x" in all the boxes.  See what types of inconsistences arise.
http://www.philosophersnet.com/games/whatisgod.htm

--- End forwarded message ---






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 20 POINTS - EXPERIENTIAL CRITERIA OF C.C.

--I can just see it: the "Knights TM-Plar"...but watch out for the Pope.

- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> on 1/7/06 5:12 PM, Jason Spock at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Would Maharishi give us a title of 'Knight'.??  50,000-/ 
dollars might be
> > enough for that.??
> >   
> I don¹t know if he would, but you¹re giving me ideas.
>

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
> 
> > My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of
> > conditionings and experiences that make "I" appear to be the body or
> > mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I
> > dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a
> > tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there.
> > Just not hung up in "oneself" as before, no one or thing to get
> > insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in "losing it" -- though
> > certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of
> > social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful,
> > very flexibible, etc.
> >
> > And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be "human
> > liver and fava bean" oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect
> > continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns,
> > just as when vasannas were tighter.  But now faster, with everything
> > flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully.
> >
> > And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva
> > mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all
> > there is.
> 
> Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul  
> doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do  
> that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal  
> black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left  
> your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I  
> always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to  
> sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India...

Its even better when you sacrifice a skunk. :)






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Triguna